Episode 6 - Division of Aquatic Resources (DAR)

In this episode, we feature the leaders of the Division of Aquatic Resources. Luna Kekoa and Brian Neilson share how personal experiences shape their values and fuel their drive to protect Hawaiʻi’s nearshore waters. From adapting generational knowledge to modern science, to building trust with local communities they reveal how DAR is shifting its approach to ensure thriving fisheries for generations to come. It's not just about managing resources—it's about relationships, respect, and responsibility. 

Transcript

[Music]

We glide on the ocean with strength and in power, determined to care for earth and sea.

Dan Dennison: Aloha and welcome to Hawaii Conservation Kuleana, brought to you by Hawaii's Department of Land and Natural Resources. I'm Dan Dennison. 

Patti Jette: And I'm Patti Jette. We're here to explore conservation issues from land to sea, with expert insights and stories from the field. 

[Music] 

Luna Kekoa: These kupuna have more PhDs than some of the people in our office because of the time they spent there. So really, like my role, I may be a program manager, but it really is just holding space for the appropriate voices to be involved in government processes. 

Dan: In this episode, during the month of World Ocean Day, we dive into all things ocean conservation with our division of aquatic resources, also known as DAR 

Patti: Aloha. Today, we have DAR administrator Brian Neilsen and program manager Luna Kekoa, thanks for joining us. 

Dan: Brian, let’s start with you. Tell us about your background, your ʻohana and your early life. 

Brian Neilson: Yeah, I grew up in Portland, Oregon, in the Pacific Northwest, so weekends were spent out hiking trails in the forest and tons of rain. So got used to wearing a raincoat pretty much all the time, and lots of lush green green forest, but then I'd spend, you know, my summers in southern Idaho, and that's where my grandparents were, and they were wheat farmers, bean farmers, desert, totally different than Pacific Northwest, but spent summers, you know, out in the fields, helping with irrigation and picking rocks out of the field, and spending a lot of time outdoors. So it was kind of contrasting kind of areas, but lots of time outside. My family, my wife's a fish biologist, so usually weekends are spent fishing or, you know, she's always got some fish she's dissecting. And my daughter, Mia's right, right along with her, you know, plucking eyeballs and and helping as her assistant. 

Dan: That's why I don't fish anymore.  

Brian: She wants to grow up to be a fish biologist. We'll see if that changes.  

Dan: Being in Portland, the ocean is about what, 60 miles to the west. Did you spend a lot of time in the ocean? Is that what prompted your interest in ocean biology?  

Brian: You know, we would, we'd go to the coast, and I'd try, you know, surfing or body surfing. But, you know, it's really cold there, so I couldn't say spent a lot of time in the water. So, so yeah, my interest in oceans really came later in life. I kind of grew up with freshwater streams, salmon, trout fishing, that type of thing. And and the ocean came later. When I moved to Alaska in my 20s. 

Dan: Luna, conversely, you grew up here in Hawaii, so spent a lot of time in the ocean from a young age, as I recall. 

Luna: So actually, I was born here, and then we moved to California, and then we moved back when I was in third grade. So that's kind of when my I mean, we went to the beach in the mainland, but it was definitely like Brian said, like cold. I kind of got my experience when I moved back home to Hawaii. And yeah, once we moved back home, it was like every weekend going to the beach, it was the funnest thing to do, and then learning from my uncle them, like my parents taught us the values, but my uncle them were the fishers, and so really learning from them how to throw net, how to look for heʻe. Majority of my time, like Brian, was that cultural and community piece came when I started coming back home from college, getting engaged in community based management, community based fisheries and stuff like that.  

Dan: And you both co hosted our television special “Saving Coral” some years ago, and I remember being out with you and your family, three sons, right?  

Luna: Two sons, one daughter. 

Dan: Two sons, one daughter and and you're really passing along these values to your kids, as I recall. 

Luna: Yeah, teaching them kind of how we grew up. But then, you know, like, as as I've been learning, I'm like, hey, some of the stuff we learned from my uncles, like, here's how we are adapting it to teach my kids that they know. Like, this is how I learned, but now that we know more, we can kind of adapt it to what we know now, right? So you're always learning and changing it. So everybody's like, Oh, you don't teach them the same. I was like, the values are still the same, but it's like, some of the science and, like, what we hey, just take the big ones, and now we know it's more of a slot that you want to take, because the big ones make the most babies, right? So passing on that knowledge, like, now we know that, like the big ones, make the most babies, so we shoot in between when we're catching fish. 

Patti: And for both of you, but we'll start with you. Brian, how has this background influenced your sense of kuleana to protect these resources? 

Brian: Just growing up spending a lot of time in the outdoors, I've just always had that love of being outside and love of nature, and I just felt like that was my playground. That's where I felt free. And, you know, spending my early teens doing a lot of backpacking in the woods and just going, going for days out in the wilderness and fishing. You know, I think that's just kind of gave me this this love of the resources, and you know, that really feeds into the passion I have today for for the work that we do at Department of Land and Natural Resources. And my family's background as farmers and in Idaho, just having that pride in your work and that taking ownership of place and taking care of that place, I think that also feeds in into the work that that I do today. And you know, just try to remember some of those, those core roots and and the passion that brought me into this work on on those days that kind of get hard or controversial issues. You know, I think that's what really centers me and my work today. 

Dan: Luna, before you answer, let me ask a follow up question, as I recall, you started in the Invasive Species Program at DAR and now you're the big boss. How'd that transition happen? And how has it gone?

Brian: Yeah, so when I moved here from Alaska, I was working as a fisheries biologist in Alaska, moved to Hawaii, didn't really have any connections to the community here or or to the ecosystem. So the the first job I got was working on the super sucker, which was an invasive species vacuum cleaner, basically so I spent hours underwater sucking up invasive seaweed, but that was a great job, because I got to spend a ton of time underwater and really get to know our reefs intimately. Got to know all sorts of different people, whether it was our partners that were working on the project, or if it was the farmers that were delivering the seaweed to or the scientists that we were working on some some of the scientific questions about invasive species control. So yeah, that that was my first job here, and where I kind of cut my teeth here in Hawaʻii. 

Dan: Your kuleana, Luna? 

Luna: So for me, it started, you know, growing up, like I said, my mom and dad taught us the values of, take only what you need, respect the environment, right? And so growing up, you just kind of went to the beach and you thought of it like it was a playground to go, but you could also eat from it, so you needed to take care of it, right? It was like, I hear a lot of communities talk about, it's our ice box. And so when I came back home from school, it really was like hanging out with communities, listening to them, and seeing, like, how much they depend on the ocean for food, for their livelihoods. I think one of the things that really made me realize that, you know, we really gotta take it we eat from it, like, and that connection and making sure my kids can connect to it in the same way, right? Everybody's thinking, Oh, you're just making rules. We can't take fish. And I'm saying, my goal is to make sure my kids cannot just look at it, but, like, eat it. That's how we get connected. Like, if you give to the aina, like, and it feeds you, like, that's the that's the relationship that you have, right? And so that's kind of what drives me and my work is just like I already have a relationship with our resources, and so making sure that we can continue that relationship beyond my years, for my kids, for my grandkids, and for others who have that same type of mentality that these resources, they're not infinite, like you gotta make sure that we balance what we're doing, and it is a balance. You want to eat our resources, but you also want to make sure that they're there for the next generation, right? So I find a lot of time in our work it's about balancing. That's what I think management is about. Is how do you balance the want with the need? 

Dan: It's often said that corals are the foundation of the ocean and the very foundation of life. I believe in Hawaiian history, in your both your time in DAR and you deal mostly with the near shore coral reefs, which is where they're mostly at. Are we doing better in here in Hawaii, I know that there was a plan to protect 30% by 2030 and you know that whole program has morphed into something different. But do you think in your relatively short time in terms of ecological time, we're seeing improvements in their coral reef systems here in Hawaii?

Brian: Yeah, I think, I think we're seeing improvements in the level of participation and and the amount of work that's going into managing our near shores, whether it's the reefs or up mauka, and trying to address some of the stressors, huge amount of stewardship that communities are doing, you know, every day, and tons of volunteer groups going out every every weekend to rebuild fish pond walls or remove invasive species. But you know, the stressors just keep coming. You know, we. Have a lot to deal with in terms of, you know, the issues we've had for four years with just a growing population and development, roads, land use, water quality, water quantity. And then we add on top of that, global climate change, where we're seeing sea level rise contributing to coastal erosion and storm events, coral bleaching events, those type of things. So it's it's hard to say that things are getting better, but I think the amount of effort that we're putting into it is definitely increasing, and maybe we're at the point where we just kind of want to sustain things of where they're at, given the amount of stressors that are coming out at us, but, but it is encouraging to see the amount of effort that's going in to to our near shore areas. 

Dan: Luna, your perspective?

Luna: So I'll echo that. I think DAR has, you know, we had a past reputation where there's a lot of distress with fishers. They're just like, you know, you guys are the managers. You it's you. And now we're kind of flipping that road to be like, hey, like we are the managers, but you have a stake in this, like you have the manaʻo from your area, like you have the knowledge from your island, you have the knowledge from your practice. And so how do we incorporate you into this process? And I think that's starting to break down the walls of distrust, so that they can be involved in these processes and be like, Whoa. We didn't realize what DAR managers have to go through, right? You mentioned the 30 by 30 is now the Holomua Marine initiative, right? And so holomua has different meanings. Can mean progress, but it can also mean to improve, right? So DAR is taking this stance to improve how we engage with communities, how we engage with fishers, to again, build that trust, because at the end of the day, that relationship is what's going to carry us to whatever goal or process we have to get through. On Maui, currently, we have a team of navigation members, so there's 16 of them, and they're all different. They're fishers, they're hunters. Some of them do fencing. Some of them are kalo farmers, right? So you have all these different expertise that they come with, but they're all for the same goal, to like, how do we improve our our near shore areas, so that there's fish that we can eat and there's fish in the ocean to do their job, and so just building processes where people trust. We're not saying like, hey, Mauiʻs plan is going to work for Hawaii Island, but the process of empowering the people of their place to be involved in these processes, like, that's what we're trying to get to so that each island we go to, you can use this process to build whatever is needed for your island. 

Dan: Is this process exemplified by the community based subsistence fishing areas. 

Luna: That was the model that we tried to take, right? It seemed to work with communities in a small scale. So at an island scale, we were like, how do we build a team of folks that could represent that island that were chosen by that community? Right? So DAR they didn't go over and say, Hey, we're selecting these folks. It was the community of Maui that said, these are the folks on our island who we think would be the best to help, like develop this plan for our island, right? So now it's community initiated, community supported, and now it's community led, because they're the ones leading the process. And we give them the tools. We say, hey, DAR has tools in our toolbox. We can have bag limits. We can have size limits. We can create areas. We can do gear restrictions. But how do you want to use it for what is needed and necessary on your island?  

Patti: What are some of the most important or continuing issues facing your division? We've talked about a few already here, but what? What else are you kind of contending with as you go along? 

Brian: Yeah, I think it's just getting hit from all of these, these different issues, all all at once. And you know, it's not just just one thing, and I talked about before, about population has, you know, increased, and so you've just got so much more development, so much more use of the resource, whether it's recreational tours on on the ocean, or whether it's just the amount of fishers in the water or the amount of people on on the beach, it could be the use of our water. So that's reducing the amount of flow to our estuaries, which are really important fish nurseries. So it's just all of these things coming, coming at us at once, and trying to just manage all of those things to keep, you know, our oceans healthy and sustain fisheries. It is nice working with communities. And there might be differences on the approach, the management approach that we take to address all these issues. But you know, the goals really align. In terms of just wanting to have thriving resources and abundant resources and healthy reefs. I think most people want that goal. It's just how we get there that can be controversial or differing approaches, and you. And that's, you know, what we spend a lot of time just trying to work with different viewpoints and see how we can all move forward together. 

Luna: For me, you know, when I started in DAR a lot of the time it was like, we don't have the budget. Like, you know, I was actually in enforcement for a little bit as a community liaison, and it was always about the budget. How do we get more funds? And so now we have programs in DAR with, like, a non resident fishing license. We have the Aloha i ke kai program, where it's generating funds that people can pay into and be like, hey, we're gonna give $1 for each tour that they're on. And that just helps us to build their own revenue, so that we can be like, hey, if you want to give to like the environment and the ocean stewardship, you can donate $1 for this. If you want to come and fish, you can get a fishing license. Like, we're the only state right now without a fishing license. So there's a lot of pilikia with that, different thoughts about, you know, Hawaii residents with fishing license, but non residents, they're used to that. Everywhere else they got to go, they're just like, we got to pay for a fishing license. How come Hawaii doesn't have one? So DAR kind of jumped on that and said, you know, we can create one for non residents. It's not too controversial. Folks in the mainland, when they come over, they're already used to paying for that. So I found that, like, DAR is looking at the issues that we've had and trying to find solutions. And these are just two of those where we see an issue, here's a potential solution, and I think that's helping to show other folks, like fishers, conservationists, that DAR is willing to come to the table, listen and adapt, and that's really important as managers, right? You can't just keep doing the same thing, and if you're hitting a wall, you're gonna hit that wall every time. So how do you change it? So you can either jump the wall, move around that wall right, dig a hole unde it, so it really is adapting.  

Dan: How is the recreational fishing license for non residents going? We're into the early months. Do you have any early data on purchases?  

Brian: I think it launched two weeks ago. And yeah, we are already seeing revenue coming in, which, which means folks are purchasing the license, and, and, yeah. So, so far, so good with with that new program.  

Dan: And how much revenue did you predict annually?  

Brian: We predicted a million dollars annually, yeah.  

Dan: And that goes to what specifically? 

Brian: So that goes in, back into supporting fisheries. So it'll support the fish aggregate, fish aggregation device program, so buoys that are set out in the ocean that attract fish and those are hot spots for fishing. It would support that, education and outreach with the fishing community, artificial reefs, reef restoration, that can help enhance fish population. So it'll go back into programs that support fishing. It also can be served as match for federal grants as well. 

Dan: So if people don't know, fish aggregation devices are called FADs for short, which I think is a great acronym.  

Brian: Much easier to pronounce, yes.  

Patti: So it strikes me that DAR really deals very closely with the cultural traditional practices of Hawaiians, more so than some of our other divisions. What do you find challenging and on the flip side, invigorating about leading this division and working amongst all of those issues that you're dealing with? 

Luna: So as far as culture goes, like DAR is kind of taking a stance for we created a small Hawaiian program in there, right? So we have, was a legal fellow, but now he's our compliance specialist, but we have somebody in there who can translate all of our material into Olelo Hawaii. We also have somebody in there who's looking at like, is this culturally relevant, or is this culturally appropriate, right? We want to be sensitive to those issues, especially like Hawaii being the host culture here. As far as like ensuring practices are not being taken away. As we go and create rules and regulations, there's the Ka Paʻakai analysis, and so our legal team helps to address that. And as we go out, we ask people, we try and engage with the aha moku, which is something that DLNR has where there's these representatives from each of the moku on each island, and we try and involve them in our processes. So on Maui, we actually have the head of the aha moku as part of our navigation team, so that we can make sure that these cultural practices, we're not impeding on them. We're not trying to stop them, but we're addressing the issue and making sure that they can still practice those practices. So just trying to be aware of that and sensitive to those issues as as we work with you know our residents. 

Dan: So for the submittals that you take to the State Board of Land and Natural Resources, how often do you do that cultural analysis, regularly now? 

Brian: We have started doing that for all of our board submittals now, we conduct the Ka Paʻakai analysis as just our protocol now for any type of rule making that we bring to the board. 

Dan: And has there been instances where that's caused you to change what you're requesting, or is it just kind of pro forma at this point in time? 

Brian: I wouldn't say it's had a net change in a policy decision, but definitely forced us to just stop and think about the different practices that an action might impact, and also just make sure that we're taking the time to listen to any possible concerns. You know, a lot of the rule making we do is to help sustain the resource. So, you know, we like to think, think that sustaining the resources also sustaining those practices and those traditional rights into the future. You know, usually the the action still moves forward, but, but it does, you know, force us to just take a pause and really analyze the feedback that that we get, to make sure that we've thought about those things before we move forward with a recommendation to the board.  

Luna: And I'll add to that, that pause is actually a chance for us to be proactive, right? So a way you can deal with it is during that pause, you go and you talk to everybody that you can and just start asking, like, Oh, who's the uncle that practices this in this area, right? And so being proactive, while we're pausing and like, moving that process forward, and just being proactive and reaching out to the appropriate either cultural practitioner of the area or the respected kupuna of the areas, making sure that we're including that in our process. So while it is a pause in the process, it's an opportunity for us to be proactive with the constituents or the stakeholders who have those practices. 

Dan: So it's really a way to increase and expand on that community engagement. 

Luna: Exactly. 

Patti: So what inspires you to come to work every day?  

Dan: Luna. (laughter) 

Luna: You want me to go first?  

Dan: No, I’m just saying you inspired me to come to work every day, but go first, please.  

Luna: Growing up, I've looked at different job opportunities. And when I was in high school, I actually walked over to the Division of aquatic research, and was like, what does it take? And I looked at that, and I was like, you know, I don't know if this is spot for me, like, and then actually got a job at Sea Life Park and I was like, that definitely isn't for me, right? I was just catering to tourists. I was like, how do I use my education to help the people of Hawaiʻi? And I think that's one thing that I see myself, is that I get to sit in this seat and hold space for the appropriate voices. And people have begun to trust me, to be like, hey, you know, like this guy works in there. He's not the expert in everything. And I tell everybody I don't know everything, but what I can do is, like, talk to you and make sure like, hey, you need to come to this meeting, because we're gonna be talking about what you know. And that's kind of the relationship I built with a lot of the stakeholders in Hawaiʻi and communities, is that I'm not the expert, but I hold space for those voices to be involved in the processes. And I think that's important, that we have positions like that in the state, and it's starting to grow. There's other people who realize, like, yeah, we're just holding space here. We may have a degree in this, but really, like, there's uncles who have, like, 20 years so basically they have like, five PhDs. And I always crack a joke about that, like, these kupuna have more PhDs than some of the people in our office because of the time they spent there. So really, like my role, I may be a program manager, but it really is just holding space for the appropriate voices to be involved in government processes.  

Dan: Brian, do you want to add anything?  

Brian: Yeah, Hawaiʻi is an inspiring place to work, whether it's just the natural beauty or the people of Hawaiʻi, but I'm definitely inspired by the people I work with. We've got all sorts of different expertise and really bright people working on all sorts of different problems and trying to change how government works. So that's that's really inspiring. And what Luna was talking about, we spend a lot of time just meeting with different groups and different stakeholders and just listening and and trying to help, you know, address different issues and go at, you know, a different way to address issues that haven't been done in the past. That's also inspiring. Lots of problem solving every day, and that just kind of keeps me going to just, you know, how can I, how can I end the day on a better note than he started it? You know. 

Dan:  It strikes me at a time in American life, American life, where public servants, particularly in the federal level, have been under fire, if you will, and in many cases, have been fired both of you and your division and many of the DLNR divisions really exemplify the best aspects of public service. So I guess the question would be, you're not in this for the money, you're in it for the love, and as Luna said, to serve the people of Hawaiʻi.  

Brian: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we're we're here for the passion, for the resource and the people that depend on them, and and, yeah, this is a pretty scary and challenging time of what we're seeing with the federal government, and we certainly rely heavily on the federal government, but maybe it's an opportunity as well for us to grow during this challenging time and carve out other resources and try to make do while the federal government is changing and just us adapting to that and coming out stronger at the end of it, that's my hope. 

Patti: So I guess we kind of want to open up the floor to you guys and find out. What else would you like our audience to know about you? Your role? DAR’s role here at the DLNR? 

Brian: Yeah, it seems like a lot of the work that DAR does that makes the headlines and gets a lot of attention is more kind of the regulatory side, the fisheries rules and that type of thing. But it's actually a small part of the work we do. We're out there doing restoration, you know, putting corals out on the reef, or responding to a boat grounding and reattaching corals. We're out there responding to invasive species outbreaks, whether it's a new anemone out in Kaneohe that was discovered and trying to eradicate that before it takes over the reef, large education outreach programs where we're going into schools and working with kids, teaching them how to fish, teaching them about the different wildlife we have here in Hawaii, and about our reefs and our fisheries. So there's a lot of things that we do that that I hope we can do a better job of telling those stories and and letting people know there's all of this work that the division does, and we're really here to support the people of Hawaiʻi and serve the people of Hawaiʻi.

Luna: I think another thing to add to that is monitoring. We do a lot of monitoring, right? So jumping in the water, we create rules and regulations. So are they working? And so we're going out and monitoring our resources to make sure, like, hey, we're seeing changes, or are we not seeing changes? And then what does that do to another thing is, like partnering, there's everybody says, Oh, well, your jurisdiction is from the high tide water mark to three miles. The fish don't know that, right? And our kuleana runs beyond that, like, just because that's our jurisdiction doesn't mean our kuleana doesn't run beyond that. And so just working with partners a lot of the time, that's how we get things done, is that we have to partner with folks who are doing restoration, or, like in Maunalua, restoring the fish pond over there, and getting the water going back. That's not really our division, but we have to partner with folks, because we do need that water to come down. So a lot of it is partnerships to make sure that we can do what is outside of our jurisdiction, but is our kuleana, because it all ends up back in the ocean. It all is connected. And so how do we make these connections and build those partnerships so that we can address the other issues? 

Dan: On the flip side, anything that any issue that gives you a great deal of angst or keeps you awake at night currently? 

Luna: I think what Brian mentioned earlier about the invasive species, like, there's always new things popping up. Another one is, like, the different conflicts. So during COVID, like, people couldn't really go into the ocean, and so fish started to change. And then people were trying to, like, swim, and fishers are out there. And so there's different type of conflicts and things that start happening. So you never know what's going to happen. That's kind of the fun part about the job. It's like, it's never the same. You can come to work and you're dealing with one thing the next day you come to work and it's something new. But I think, yeah, the invasive species is something that like, as Brian mentioned, they're popping up. And so how do we deal with it? What lessons can we learn from other areas that have been dealing with that, where it is natural in their area, but in Hawaiʻi it's not, and so how do we deal with those. 

Dan: Brian, anything like that? 

Brian: Yeah, I think just trying not to be reactive, trying to be proactive and get ahead of some of these issues that we're facing and so hard, because we've got so much coming at us, and we've only got so much capacity. But you know, that's, that's where I'd like to be, is is looking ahead, and how can we get in front of of some of these issues before it turns into a crisis? 

Dan: Well, kudos to both of you and your teams for being proactive and really innovative in a lot of your approaches to problems that have been here for a long time and are probably gonna be with us for a long time, but trying to find solutions.  

Luna: A lot of it has to do with listening. The communities have ideas and solutions that prior to this, there was a lot of folks who maybe didn't listen. Now we have a team that really listens and sit down and say, well, can you explain that a little bit more? So, like I said, just providing space for people to kind of share, sometimes vent, but kind of share that so that we can listen and be like they have solutions in their head. So how do we utilize their manaʻo into what we're trying to do? 

Dan: Takes time and work, but it's worth it. 

Brian: Yeah, and, you know, just to build off of what Luna was saying, we get criticized a lot. Almost every decision we make, we get criticized. But I think one of the great things about DAR and our team is we're willing to listen to that criticism and and try to grow from it, rather than start a wall in front of us and not want to move forward, we try to really grow from the criticism we get, and adapt that into our approach and how we manage our resources and work with communities. 

Dan: Okay well, thank you both for joining us today, and mahalo to our listeners for joining us as well. For now, I'm Dan Dennison  

Patti: and I'm Patti Jette. 

Dan: Our theme music is provided by Kawika Kahiapo. 

Patti: Thanks for tuning in to Hawaii conservation kuleana A hui hou.

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