Butler Maps Co-founder Interview - ADV Cannonball News - Spring Motorcycle Ride Report

We chat with Scott Calhoun, the co-founder of Butler Motorcycle Maps. We talk about creating other perfect motorcycle routes in the USA and Canada. 

Episode 13 Main Sponsor - Colombia Motorcycle Rental & Tour Co

Transcript

Welcome to the ADV Cannonball podcast where we discuss all things on two wheels, the adventure bike cannonball, and other motorcycle related nonsense. Season two episode 13. Welcome Season two, episode 13. Welcome to Adventure Cannonball podcast. My name is Taylor Lawson, and I am joined today by Aaron Pufal.

Aaron, welcome to the show. Thanks, bud. How's it going over there? Yeah, man. We're riding over here.

We had a we had some really nice weather, and it got warm. We actually saw 20 degrees Celsius, about 72 Fahrenheit and, centigrade Fahrenheit, and, I thought we were off and running. And then, last weekend, it snowed. So That always well, that's April. Right?

And that's just the way it is, I suppose. That's April. And then this morning, I woke up to, zero centigrade 32 Fahrenheit, and that was, not pleasant. Nice. Well, that's life in Sweden.

All over here in Port Angeles at the worldwide headquarters of ADV Cannonball, it is nothing but rain, but, hopefully hopefully, that changes. But everyone is out. Everyone is out on the bikes. Everyone's having fun, and everyone's looking forward to summer. That's for sure.

Alright. I got two important questions for you. Mhmm. And you do not have to answer them in any particular order. First question is, what are you drinking?

It is a oh, yeah. Yellow dog hazy IPA. This is the part where you ask me what I'm drinking. Oh, sorry. I was having a drink.

What are you drinking, Taylor? Hey. Thanks for asking, Aaron. I'm I'm having a a New England IPA all the way over here in Sweden by Amundsen. And, you ready for this name?

Mhmm. It's Apocalyptic Thunder Juice. Nice. Yeah. Sounds like a sounds like a punk rock band.

I know. That's right. From the eighties in someone's basement. Alright. Boy, that that made a mess.

Ew. That was a that was a messy one. It happens. It happens to the best of us. Yeah.

These things happen. They say You know, they just keep they'll just keep making Macs if I just keep buying them. That's right. So the second question, are you still wishing that you had purchased an ark rather than a house because of the rain? I should start building?

Yeah. I don't know what's happened. It's just it's just been nothing but rain, and it's just it needs to stop, to be honest with you, because because, you know, we need to get out on on two wheels, and and it just it just never seems to stop. So hopefully summer summer is around the corner. On the last episode, you mentioned that you're going to swing your leg over the old girl and take it for a spin I mean, your motorcycle.

And I just wanna know how your first outing was. Nice. We went, up to a little pub up the end of the peninsula, and that was a lot of fun. And then, actually, I had taken the ferry over to Vancouver Island, and I had met this couple, older couple, retired, and they were on their way back. They were doing their last leg.

They lived on the island. They're doing their last leg on their Pan American highway journey, and they just did the whole, what is the summer season down in, South America. They had finished a whole big ride all the way down to Ashwaia and back. And I'm actually going to interview him, I think, later in the week. He's been nice enough to invite me over.

So I need to hop back on the ferry and go meet with him, sometime this week. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to hear hear about their story. He was on a KLR six fifty, the latest generation, and his wife was on a smaller BMW, something like a six fifty. So, yeah, really nice couples, super nice guy, and I'm looking forward to talking to them about their, their their South American journey. That sounds pretty cool.

Yeah. It'll be really interesting to, to compare that with Sam Manicom's trip that he did down there, that he he in the books that we're actually reading, which is Distant Suns, where he covers he covers that. I'm actually at that part now where he's finishing, Arshuaia, and he's, he's headed back north. So it's it's it'll be interesting to hear their stories about that as well in comparison. Yeah.

And it was refreshing to talk to a couple of Canadians that weren't so constantly afraid of security and, you know, in, in those issues. Whenever I'm on that ferry, there's always a gaggle of bikers and, you you know, inevitably someone's going down south and, you know, the first thing people say is, oh, what about security? What about this? So it was really refreshing to, speak to them briefly about that. And, you know, they're they're obviously older and, retired, and it was it was really cool to speak to them about that.

You know, back to the security issue. I mean, I I've gotta say, like, that was one of the main questions that I had for Conrad Flamcomb. We interviewed him about his trip into Colombia that he did twice twice in one year. And I was really curious about that because, you know, Colombia, that's like just like the the advertisement to start and our advertiser says, it's like, it's safe. We've been riding adventure adventure bikes down here for years, and there is no seasons.

There's only altitude. So I thought it was great. I don't know. It's just human nature, I think. And, I'm really happy to hear all the positive ride reports and, that nothing really happens.

So except for adventure. So Yeah. Cool. Alright. So we last time we talked, we touched a little bit on your trip that you're planning to come over to Europe.

And, is there anything that you can share without having to start the sentence with spoiler alert? No. So my travel plans are to fly into Marseille, and then I'm renting a car to go see Ted Simon on his birthday. And then I'm going to fly down to the South Of Spain. And I've had a positive response from Linden Poskett, and he does, he did a series called Race the places, and he's on our, motorcycle film club for his documentary on Malle Moto.

Then I'm going to head up to, back to The UK and I have a bunch of stuff set up there. And, yeah, I can give you, more details on that perhaps on the next episode when I firm things up. Fantastic. So the I listened to the interview that you did. I thought it was really, really good with Scott.

But before we before we jump into that, maybe you can touch a little bit on on on Scott and then also on Butler Maps. Yeah. So Scott is the cofounder of Butler Maps. And, you know, us old guys know what Butler Maps are then. And for the kids, I'll I'll try to explain.

A Butler map is a folded up, high quality, water resistant map, and they sell them per state or per region. Typically, they have a few other products now, but let's say you are going to go do a ride in Utah. You would go on butlermaps.com and you would order a Utah riding map and to do it any other way is just madness. And on that map, they have categorized the very best motorcycle roads for that region. And they've done it in G1, G2, and G3 is the classification for the paid sections.

And that is, you know, gold one, two, and three. So follow the, follow the gold road. And, you know, it's it's it's generations of of human intelligence, and Scott and his his cofounders went out and wrote all these roads, and they've just polished it and refined it. Many of those maps are, you know, version two, three, and four now. They also have, ADV routes on those maps, and they have some specialized maps for like the backcountry discovery routes and, and, some cross country maps.

So it's basically a biker's tool, whether you're on a bagger or you're on a GSA, they have something for you. But to to sit down and try to plan something without it is, is an exercise in driving yourself crazy. Yeah. And you you explained that really well in the, in the interview. So without spoiling anything there, Scott Calhoun is the cofounder of Butler Maps.

Yeah. What what a great name. Right? And he's got a that good old boy, accent from Texas. And, you know, I think he's got a lot of stories to tell.

But I think the fact that he started writing late later in life and, you know, they were sitting around and they didn't have a resource and it's a great American story of, we think that we can develop this resource and turn it into a small business. And that's exactly what they did. So, you know, I really, admire that, that spirit that they had probably sitting around a pub and came came up with an idea, and then they actually went and did it, which was really awesome. Nice setup, Aaron, and let's roll the interview. Registration is now open to the public for the next ADV Cannonball rally.

All riders on any motorcycle are welcome to join the adventure. Whether you're looking for an exciting and highly organized coast to coast ride with a group of like minded riders or a friendly competition for cannonball glory, it doesn't matter. Everyone can participate. Head over to ADVcannonball.com to secure your rally starting position today. Now back to the podcast.

Alright. I'm sitting here with Scott Calhoun. Scott is the cofounder of Butler Maps, and I'm in Seattle. And, Scott, where are you today? Waco, Texas.

Nice. And I we have a atmospheric River on the way to Seattle, and I'm sure you're gonna tell me how great the weather is over there. Well, it's pretty darn good. We're not we're not used to cold weather. It was kinda cool yesterday in the low forties, but we're over it today.

It's nice outside. Nice. Nice. Very good. I'm really geeking out over here because, you're the cofounder of Butler Maps.

And according to the history page on the website, you know, this research for this massive project, started about twenty years ago. And, you know, I think you're really showing off here, but it says you guys rode about a quarter million miles researching the very best roads in America for motorcyclists. You know, to me, this this really sounds like an excuse to go ride motorcycles for a couple years. Can you can you maybe tell us how much of that riding you did yourself, Scott? I can't give you the miles.

I did the most riding of anyone, and that's because, in the beginning, court and his father, Fred, and I rode all the roads together, and we we rode together for the first five maps, which those were Colorado, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana. We rode together. Every day that we rode, we're all three of us were together. And, and then we went to Southern California and and rode that, the three of us together. After that, it, it became necessary for Court Butler, the young partner, to start making maps.

In other words, he he's, of course, highly organized, talented guy, and he needed to be in the office doing the creative part of of making the Butler maps. And and I then ended up not that this was a terrible thing, but I ended up riding constantly after that. I was I would ride, for days days on end. Sometimes it I was gone for as much as three weeks at a time, never never being home and never not and never seeing anyone I knew. You know?

It was just I loved it. Yeah. It sounds like the there's always that disconnect between the fun part of, you know, researching the business plan and and finding the roads and identifying that, and someone had to go back to actually making your way towards a positive, revenue stream. Could you maybe describe what your daily, your day your day to day looked like when you're out crushing those miles? Yeah.

I got up very early, and I would do some research in the morning. And that there's a lot to that, and it chain it evolved and changed all the time because we there there was no there was no pattern for this. We didn't have anyone to look to who had done this before and say, okay. That's how you do it. So I used all sorts of references, including the DeLorme Atlas and the Benchmark Atlas, you know, the big road atlas atlases that used to be so popular.

Okay. Yeah. I use those a lot, and that's where I would do the artwork. In other words, I would draw out my the route that I expected to the routes as much as I could as much as I could predict. I drew where I was gonna ride that day.

And it's and so let's just say that in the morning, I'm drawing on my my little Atlas page there. I am also looking at Google Earth. I used it a lot. Used it all the time. And I had all sorts of just, like, county road maps, just specialty maps that people had made over the years that might be that might help me determine where these these best roads are.

And just in general, what we what we look for, it it seems like we would be rating some this differently than this, but we were looking for twistiness and elevation change. That's really what we rate when we, you know, sometimes we just say, well, we rate, you know, these we rate based on elevation change, twistiness, scenery and all this other stuff. But the scenery comes with it. If if the road is very twisty and there's a lot of elevation change, the scenery is gonna be great because there's something that caused that road to be twisty. And scenery is hard to rate because everybody's idea of what's scenic is different.

Somebody Sure. Some people like it wide open. Some people like to be in a dense forest. You know? So we didn't really rate that.

It just came with the territory. Yeah. Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. Maybe, you know, Butler Maps offers a bunch of different products these days, and, you know, perhaps I've I've steered you a bit wrong here. Perhaps we should tell maybe the new rider or people that are that are, you know, new to planning.

Maybe you could describe what a Butler g one map actually is. Well, it's a g one is a paved road map because, you know, we do dirt roads and paved road. And I'm almost totally involved with the paved roads, not the dirt roads. But anyway, g one map. The whole idea came down to we try to find the most thrilling, exciting, twisting this twistiest paved roads in the country and put those on a map where you can see where these are.

And and we also, you know, the G 1 is what we consider the ultimate paved road motorcycle road in The United States. When once when we first started, we thought that that's what we were gonna do is just a a g one map. Well, it turns out that there's so many roads that are incredibly good but aren't at that level. They aren't at that, you know, the level that you that you just can't even believe. But so we we came down to a g 2 and a g 3.

So G One's the best, G Two's next, and G 3 is still good. And, you know, those are in three different colors on our maps. G one is is yellow. That's supposed to be gold. G stands for gold.

And solid gold route, you know. So the yellow looking lines on our maps are the the best, the best anywhere. Next is red, and they're still incredible. They just might not have quite as much, let's call it peril danger. So some people actually use the maps to avoid some of the g one because sometimes those, you know, those are exciting.

Let's just put it that way. In most cases, they're thrilling. You you ride these maps, so you know. G two is a little less so, but still amazing. And g three, just think of a a winding paved road along a river in the woods.

Just fun, beautiful riding. And so that's that's how that works. And and we have criteria for how we rate each one of these, but it's kind of a it's it's subjective on our part, but we've trained ourselves. And it's a little bit hard for me to just describe that. But g one, let's say, that there's always a lot of elevation change.

There's always quite a bit quite a bit of extreme twistiness, and you need both hands on the bike to handle these things. You're not gonna be going that well. Sometimes you can be going fast, but you're not these aren't race tracks. These are thrill rides. Yeah.

For sure. I've I've been using the rating system to shape my entire motorcycle chips for for years, whether it's personally or professionally. And I think a good way to describe it is that I will plan an entire day around one or two g one sections, And then I will always, if I can, use a g two or a g three to get to those sections. In a place like, Colorado, I can additionally always squeeze in one or two ADV sections. Is that how you intended folks to use your maps?

Well, absolutely. The when we first started, we didn't have any dirt connections necessarily. We were all we were doing just paved roads. Fairly soon after we started, we started putting some select dirt roads on the back of the paved road maps. And so you probably you've been around long enough to where you were probably using that aspect.

But now nowadays to complete the you know, what you were saying there is you can have an adventure map, which is our new series, and a g one map and use those together. Yes. Like you say, you're you're riding from one incredible g one. You're trying to get to the next one. It might be 50 miles away or a hundred miles away.

What am I gonna do in the meantime? Well, you ride all of the g twos and g threes that are in there, and occasionally, you'll find an just an amazing dirt road for dirt road riders to connect between, say, a g two and a g one. And you get a you get the full experience on that day. Let me tell you. Yeah.

And, you know, especially now the, you know, the ADV cannonball is is our is our main business, and it's, you know, it's basically people of our vintage, to to to be polite, that are riding great big ADV bikes. And I realize that's not your your specialty and your involvement in the company, but I've always wanted to know. It is so reliable, those ADV routes. I don't wanna give away all my planning secrets here, but how on earth do you, are you so confident that the ADV routes, won't get people into trouble? Because I've never been into trouble, on one of those routes, and they've just been fantastic.

What is the process like when you when you you go as far as to put an ADV route on one of your maps? Well, there's there are numerous people involved with the dirt route plant, you know, the ADV maps. And a guy named Bill Akins is our head guy. Bill's been with us a long time. Bill's amazing.

He's a lot of fun. But he knows dirt roads. He's very good. He goes to extremes, and he's got there are other people that help him. You know, if I start listing everyone, I'll miss someone.

So I'm just gonna say numerous people that are in our company and and outside of our company help build with this. But he goes to all sorts of sources just looking at, you know, sometimes you can just take a county map and find out a lot. But he reads there. There's a lot out there. There's a lot of blogs and information from dirt road riders.

I forget the name of the site, the ADV riders. I think it may be ADV rider. But there's a lot of information there, and Bill knows how to get it all. So he puts all this together, and then he and Court Butler and others, we we have layers of people who edit our maps. I'm not one of them because I don't I don't know that.

I don't involve myself with the dirt road, the planning, or the making of those maps. I just look at them to prove the words, you know, the wording and look for mistakes that might be on in the wording. But anyway, the the I wish I could give you a better answer, but it's it comes from so many sources that it's truly amazing. And my favorite source, even when I was doing some of the dirt road planning, was, Google Earth. It's amazing how that you can get down.

Of course, nobody will spend the time on this stuff that we will, and certainly, I will when I'm doing it. I'd get down and fly these roads. If you you know, do you know what I mean? Do you use Google Earth very much? Yeah.

And it's I think you're underselling it because we spend sometimes days and days and days planning out a single eight hour day. And I've spent those days on Google Earth flying over the roads overhead and then trying to find an article written somewhere, and then I go on YouTube and try to and try to figure that out. But the best thing to do is just is just open up a Butler map, and it's it's so reliable. I'm like, yep. They got a dotted line there.

It says ADV route, so I'm just going, and you've never let me down. But, yeah, I've definitely gone through that painstaking process trying to find something. We try to keep you from having to go do that. It is painful. The you know, I I recently moved one house to another, and I had a a office in my old house that was a pretty good sized office.

The whole thing was full of Butler map files maps. These large sheets that I used to work from that our benchmark would send me these proofs like every other day that took it take up all the space. So, anyway, I moved them to a storage building, and I just went and got all that's a bunch of it yesterday so I could have it as reference material for, you know, what we're talking about. It's amazing. It's it's stunning how much stuff there is involved in making one of these maps that just ends up, you know, you guys all deal with almost no paper anymore.

My world is not that way. It's I've got a lot of paper, a lot of tracks about how these maps are made. So but, yeah, we try we definitely try to keep people from having to do this stuff, go out and enjoy the the riding, and leave this other stuff to us because we enjoy it. In court, my partner, he loves this stuff. I do.

Bill does. We had a partner named Justin Bradshaw, that we when we we had a digital version. I'm I'm sure you're familiar with Revver. Mhmm. Okay.

Revver was started by Butler Maps. That was that was ours. And, Justin Bradshaw was part of Butler Maps. And when we when we created the Revver app, which is pretty popular app out there, Justin and a part another partner named Mark Repke, We spun that off to them. So Justin was very much involved in in all of this as well.

And so, anyway, that's that's that on on the maps. We just hope you go out and enjoy them, and don't try to overcreate because we've already done this. You know, it's funny you mentioned, Rev. I've always wanted to know what that that synergy was. So my process is, whether it's something for myself, a fun solo trip, or it's something professional like a private a private trip that I'm running or something as serious as the cannonball rally that that we run.

I always start with a Butler paper map, and then I will move to Revver, and then Revver has the overlays for specific turn by turn, routing. And then from there, I can figure out, you know, what's a reasonable amount of time to spend on the road that day. And then if I'm just riding by myself, I will navigate in Revver. But if I'm working and I have a group, I will then export the GPX files, and I will distribute that to everyone because, you know, everyone has their reference for navigation device. So I I still use, the paper map in conjunction with Revver.

I'm I'm I'm wondering, like, when when you go out for a ride, what is your process like for for planning a route? Well, I really I don't use Revver too much anymore because I'm I know kind of what I'm doing with my navigation, you know, just on regular GPS devices that I have on the bike. And so I get the I get the Butler map out and I just I I just dial in the starting point of a g one that's close to that's where I'm going and just ride to it. And, you know, it's a lot of things. It depends on the weather, what I'm where I'm actually going, etcetera.

But I'll just ride along like that. And, you know, when I get through riding that g one, I'll just stop and put in the next g one. So I'm not planning a day. I rarely when when I'm you know, I really hadn't had that much time to do just pleasure riding, to tell you the truth. Mine, although it's extreme pleasure, what I do, mine is almost has always been start and stop writing because I was, you know, so I wish I could answer that question better when I'm doing it.

I just go from one g one to another. I'm just looking for that experience on a g one or a g two. And and so I stop and think it through. I say, well, which which is it raining? You know, in the mountains, you see rain over in one direction.

Well, I'll go the other way. So I just plan along like that. But the map is so incredible for that. You pull it out and just look and say, boy, this looks good. I'm going to go that way.

Color ramp on our maps is so accurate that you can see what you're going into just by looking at the colors on the map. You know, the the the shading of the mountains and all, it's real. It looks like what you're gonna see there. Yeah. It's great.

I just wanna tell folks that we have a bit of a delay. So sometimes we, we step on each other, and it's not it's not on purpose. It's just because of that darn technology isn't moving at the speed of light. I've been using, Butler maps, you know, forever, like, like I said. And one of my favorite maps, and really it speaks to the state itself, is the Colorado map.

It's just, you know, a rider's paradise. When did you, first publish that first edition of the g one Colorado map? Well, the first it was the first, state that we rode. We rode of course, Colorado is where we're from. I live in Waco, but the company is located in Eagle, Colorado.

And so we we rode Colorado because that's where the idea that's where we were when the idea was spawned. We we we were gonna just do a Colorado map. I mean, we had bigger plans, but we thought, well, if nothing else, that might be the only map we ever make. And so let's do this right. So we wrote Colorado, and we published that map.

By the time we published Colorado, we had already ridden you Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana. So we had all of the maps done, and we printed them in 2010, I believe it was, that they all we kinda gang printed those things together. But it was we started selling those in 2010, '2 thousand '10. I think it was, May of twenty ten is when we started actually delivering maps to people. It definitely shows the product is is highly refined.

And, you know, I find when things are well polished, they sometimes look a little simplified. But I think you guys have really, you know, done a great job of making it look like a simple product. But sometimes you, you know, you shortchange yourself by by not looking so hyper complex. There's so much that goes into it, but it is so easy to use, especially in a in a in a rich state like Colorado. Well, I I think so.

The when you're looking at the Colorado map, which I am right now, you see the inset boxes, you know, that are on the front of the map, and then the rest of them are on the back of the map. The detail in those, that's where the detail is. So I agree. And I and I'm glad you appreciate the the simple look of the main map. There are layers of things that we could put on that map, and we tried to reduce the number of layers so that motorcycle riders are looking at motorcycle roads, not the confusion of all these, you know, too many parks and things.

We do have that on there, but you have to look pretty close. So it looks simple. If you want to get to the details, go to the inset boxes that are on the back usually, and some of them are on the front. There's much more detail there. That's the topographic information.

There's park, some campsites, just a lot more information on in the inset boxes. And a lot of people that ride of our customers that have been around forever, they go into the details on on the information that's on the back of the maps, which is there's a lot of information on the back of all these maps. So I I urge people that use I think most people that buy a g one map are gonna do that, but you need to get on the back because Cort Butler does an amazing amount of research to put together narratives that describe what you will expect to see on each of these g one routes. It's pretty it's it's a lot of fun to read. You might as well read it before you go ride because every one of these rides is gonna be incredible.

Yeah. We often have a we call it story time. Right? So which often involves after the day of riding. We're always at the pub somewhere or having dinner, and we're usually worse for wear.

And everyone loves story time, which is get out the Butler map, and and and we we will read those excerpts to to to folks saying, well, this is what to expect today, so on and so forth. So everyone appreciates, story time. And then speaking of the Colorado map, when I ride to Colorado, for instance, and I, you know, I really need to crush some miles because there's always that, you know, that feeling I just need to get there feeling. Right? But I will always especially in the Colorado map in the northern section where there really isn't a lot of g one roads, there are some sections up there that you call lost highways, and they're just great.

And it's really great when you're riding solo because there is no one on these lost highways. They're usually really special where sometimes through a a mountain pass, it all of a sudden becomes comes gravel, and it it the the pavement comes up again. The the the center lines are, you know, washed away, and there's no one there. So you can really, you know, go have some fun and not worry about a cop doing radar there, but it really gives you a sense of nostalgia. When did you start adding the Lost Highways category?

Well, the the original Lost Highway, and I've forgotten the number of it, was in Wyoming. I was I think I was with Court and Fred, but we were riding on a paved road that was just straight. And it went through this grassland. There were no fences, as I recall, no fences on the side, and there were no power lines. And this was one of the most incredible feelings that that I've ever had on a motorcycle that wasn't in the mountains or something.

It was just amazing. I said, you know, anyone would be glad to be on this road, but it certainly isn't a g one, g two or g three. It was pretty much straight and flat. And when we got to the end of that road, it was probably 20 miles long, maybe more. You know, when we, you know, we stop a lot when we're doing all this stuff.

I told Fred and Cort, I said, you know, we need to put those that road. We need a category for that road right there. We run into a lot of these, and that's an amazing ride. You know, I ride BMW motorcycles, GS's. I've had a bunch of them, But a lot of people ride that are riding these Harleys and bigger bikes that, you know, aren't riding the twistiness sometimes necessarily.

A road like this is paradise for them. You know, you can imagine the big the big Harley, the guys laid back, sitting back all comfortable and cruising down this road, and there's and there's no one in sight. You're right about it. There's no there's you're wondering why they built these roads. Why is this road even here?

Nobody's using it. I think we often are so fixated on twisties and elevation, and that's great and all, but sometimes it can also be fatiguing. And I think the change of of scenery and atmosphere and ecosystem, you know, not to get too poetic about it, but, I think we get hung up on on on those factors. And, you know, using a thing like a Butler map will bring you to these really special places, and you would never know that looking at a road atlas or Google Earth or I don't care what you're looking at, you would never know that that stretch of road is very special. Maybe maybe you could share one of your one of your favorite roads with us.

Well, god, I have a lot of favorite roads, and my the problem is with me is I forget the names and numbers because I fly by these things as I'm rating them. But I'll let me just give you a, I guess, the when people ask me, which is often enough, where where's the best riding in the country? You've ridden all these roads. Where's the best? Well, I'm not gonna go out on a limb and break anybody's heart by saying this this one area is the very best.

Surprisingly, the one of the best place areas to ride, let's put it that way, is Northwest Arkansas. And I know that lets bunch of people down, but Northwest Arkansas is the most surprising motorcycle riding to me in the country. And it it's all west I mean, East of Fayetteville, Arkansas. There if you ever have an index if you have an Ozarks map, it's index box number 10. And if you look at that index box, I know that a lot of people that are listening to us don't have an Ozarks map, but there's an index box in every road in a 50 by 70 mile box is is a g one, g two or g three.

It's unbelievable that there could be that much concentration of great roads in that small of an area. There's a little town called Jasper. I don't even know if very few people have heard of Jasper, Arkansas. There's five roads that come into that little town, that village, and every one of them is a major g one or g two. It's it's just unbelievable.

So that's that's enough publicizing that, I guess, but that's an area that I've told people about many times. It's stunning. You know, you're really, making me smile over here because I go to these, rallies, and we try to get people to sign up for, you know, the Cannonball rally. And Cannonball rally goes from one coast to another, and there's always these sections. I call them the doldrums of America.

Right? And this year's route, the 2025 route goes through the Ozarks. And I'll always have someone who walks up to our map and go points and goes, well, that's boring. And I I just wanna yell. I'm like, no.

This is really gonna be amazing. You gotta trust me that, you know, that, you know, the names of these roads are awesome. The view is awesome. It may not be twisty, and, you know, I hate to go back to this again. It's not always about the radius and frequency of curves.

There is much more to the secret sauce of a really good, motorcycle road. It's just a surprise to people that that's that good. Now everywhere else, I tell you, I can I can I can give you our most popular maps ever? Sure. Let's do it.

Now these these aren't by the number of sales because some of them have been around longer than others. But the ones that just blew the socks off that sometimes we didn't expect were, first of all, Colorado, then good God, Texas Hill Country. I don't think we've I mean, that's that's not some that's not where you think of big g ones and g twos, but and it's not really. That is a map that is so much fun for people that we couldn't print them fast enough when we started making the the Texas Hill Country map, and that would have been in 2011 maybe. But that and so Colorado, Texas Hill Country, the Ozarks, big seller.

Texas Hill Country, that was we made Texas Hill Country and Ozarks because they're near my home, and I could ride them in the wintertime. And I'm in Texas, so they're right there. And, of course, Court and Justin came down and helped me ride those. But anyway and then, another one, not in order here, Southern Appalachia. That one was amazing because it was East Coast kind of a thing, and we didn't have anything else out there.

So those those particular ones were were just, important to our beginning. Those those three or four maps, were the ones that just kinda shocked me. You know, you're you're really selling my my rally here because we're actually going through Southern Appalachia this year as well for our rally. So Oh, wow. That's really great.

I've, you know, I've been using charts and maps and imagery my entire life, as a yacht captain. I used to be a hovercraft pilot. I'm a private pilot. So to me, it's a it's a real pleasure to have, you know, a paper map for, you know, you know, for the planning phase of any kind of bike trip. Plus we always plus we talked about, you know, story time, whether it's the night before or the morning during breakfast, having a paper map out, for everyone to look at.

You know, did you have any background before starting this this huge project with map may with map making? Well, I had a lot of background. I'm 70 years old. This will probably surprise you. I I never rode a motorcycle until I was 55 years old.

Wow. I didn't I didn't ride motorcycles. I was from Texas. I rode horses. And so it's kind of strange that I that might be kind of the reason we got into this in a way, though.

I I got to be friends with Court Butler's father, Fred, who was one of our partners, and, and and was hanging I bought some realist I bought some silver mines from Fred Butler back in 1996. He and I became big buddies, and I stayed with him many times a year. He enjoys his house there in Eagle, Colorado. And and so as after about ten years of doing this, you know, I knew I knew Court Butler, his son. He was a young guy then.

He was a teenager when I met him. But we, we after ten years of this, I had never really talked to Fred about motorcycles. I I knew that he had a motorcycle, and I knew his son Court rode them all the time. But so they asked me one time if I wanted to go on a motorcycle. Right?

And I said, guys, I've never even I'm I'm ridden dirt bikes, but I've never really ridden a motorcycle, you know, to to any extent. And so I rented a a 1,200 GS and rode 500 miles. The first day I ever rode a motorcycle, rode 500 miles from Eagle, Colorado to Cody. And you can imagine what that was like for somebody that had never ridden, you know, had never. So it was pretty much within a month of that time.

That's when I started in my mind, it gelled that people like me needed a map to show them where these incredible motorcycle roads are. Court and Fred knew where the roads we had already ridden all the mountain states by the time I was thinking along these lines. It was like a purse a flatlander from Texas comes to Colorado, Utah, Idaho. They don't know where the these roads are. They just know that they're here somewhere.

Well, in my mind, the the whole thing started when I started talking to Court and Fred and and, by the way, Court's wife, Tammy, rode with us most of the time too. I started saying, guys, people like me need something that shows them where these amazing roads are. And so how about let's let's make a motorcycle map of Colorado. Court was looking for something new to do, and that's kind of how that's how we got started. It was right there.

I think there's definitely some some crossover, between speculating in a silver mine and speculating on chartography. I think I think I think there's more stories there that you're you're not sharing with us, or or perhaps in a in a in a more appropriate venue, you could you you could share those stories for sure. I sure will. Those were hundred and something year old mines, so that there was a there's a lot of a lot to that story. Yes.

Yes. Oh my goodness. That's great. You know, I recently, rode down to Bisbee, Arizona, from the Baja, and, I spent some time with, Sterling Noreen Yeah. Down at Bisbee, and he had your new Arizona map sitting on the coffee table.

You know? Are you, working with folks like Sterling to gather some local knowledge for some of the new products? Sterling's been in just he specifically. Of course, we use him as a reference, but he's he's been involved with us in in various ways for years. He he you know, we we do we made the BDR maps, the backcountry to score discovery series maps for years, and we still sell them now.

But Sterling was a part was one of the persons that got that started. So, yeah, he's he's got such a history that we use people like him all the time. We we get information everywhere we can, and people like Sterling have a lot of information. Yeah. He's definitely a a great resource and and someone who's been, an advocate for the community.

I think about three, four episodes ago, we have an interview with him, and he was really nice to invite us into the, into his home. And we just saw that Butler map, and I'm like, you know, we're all this is our secret weapon, and, I just wanted to share, our our our secret resource with everyone who's, listening today. You know, speaking of that, whenever I meet people, everyone these days is just, you know, using their phone, and everyone's using, like, Google Earth or these new AI, you know, apps, and I feel like everyone is missing out. Everyone is I don't know how many times I I speak to someone. Oh, I'm heading down to, you know, Southern California, and I'll just take 101.

And I'm like, if I had the time, I would, you know, take you to the pub and make you look at this map, and let's figure out a route for you and not just press go to or have their AI generated, you know, route for, you know, the next three days. I think people are just are just missing out. Now what what's your opinion on, you know, this new confluence of of AI and how it's really even driving people's route making decisions. Yeah. Well, you honestly, you I I understand how the AI works, and, also, there are sites out there that have all these analyzers that, you know, that that create digitally these twisty roads, you know, and some of them one of them is called twisty roads, I think.

There's nothing that can match riding these roads yourselves. We ride every row. You know, we're through making g one maps. At least as far as I know, we've done all of The US and can and parts of Canada. But there's there's not any there's not any way you can compare have you can't come up with that information digitally at this time.

It just doesn't work. You you have to ride this and experience it in order to rate it as a g one, g two, or g three. The AI method and other methods would rate all of those roads as very good. Particularly, they wouldn't distinguish between a G 2 and a G 1. You have to be there to experience that.

I mean, you have to have the experience in order to make that rating. And there's a big difference. There's really a big difference between G 1 and G 2. G 2 is still incredible. And then there's a big gap between G 2 and G 3.

And the guys, me and the guys that have ridden all these, we we know when we're on a g one and we know when we're on a g two. But that a the AI device, I mean, that that method may not know that and you need to know it. I mean, if everything was if we just put gold stripes on all the good roads, the g one, g two and g three around the nation, well, there would be gold everywhere. But when you look at one of these Butler maps, it's a g one map. You see a limited amount of g one.

And that's what we they have to be incredibly they have to be incredible. G2, there's a lot more of it. So you've got a lot of great writing there, but it's it's important that they're broken down into those categories. And, so I just don't think you can get there doing it digitally. If if you can, more power to you, but I think they're a long ways from that.

And I think it's important people know that we wrote them. Yeah. I'm not anti technology. Like, when I ride, I I ride with no less than three navigation devices running simply because, you know, this is my profession. Right?

So Right. It has made my my riding so much better. Like, one of my screens will have real time weather radar, and I I can choose to alter my my route according to, you know, a 15 mile wide storm cell, and I can just go around it. Like, it's really improved my riding. I do you you just can't substitute the scream in your head sorry.

Scream in your helmet. This is the best road I've ever been on feeling with a computer that's calculated something. It's it's really someone else has seen this road, and they've put it down on paper and says, I think you should go see this road because this is the most amazing road. I think that's what, Butler Maps has done, and I can illustrate this this with a recent experience. So in June, I planned a thirty day, trip where we shipped our bikes to, The UK.

And then, you know, we did, you know, the standard thing finishing up, in Norway. You know, we hit some of the the the hits and, you know, Northern Scotland and Isle Of Man, but there was no resource for those areas. And I just hit the wall, and it was months of planning and just like we started off talking on Google Earth and things like that. And, you know, there's really this gap. Norway's a big one, the Alps.

We can go to the Picos. We can talk about, you know, all of Europe, you know, as a whole. We can talk about exotic places like India and Japan and and and so long. So who do I have to convince to hire me and send me off with an unlimited budget, for the next ten years and, you know, get these rest of these, you know, countries in a Butler map. Is that, something that could be could be done?

Oh, well, that's that's a great question. We we tried. We started down that road. The cost, literally, we didn't think of we didn't think about cost when we started making the Colorado map. We said, what we were having so much fun.

It didn't really matter how much it cost because we were getting our entertainment at the same time. But they're they're expensive to make here in The US. But when you go to Europe and try to and we did try. Justin Bradshaw went over there. I mean, we've dealt we we've actually partnered with BMW Motorcycles, the Motorrad out of Germany.

We went over there, and we started riding roads for to do what we do here. And the the I guess it's the traffic and the way things are laid out over there. You just couldn't get enough miles in a day. When Cort and I are riding, we ride between 306 miles a day. And while we're doing that, we have we have an app, by the way, that we created some years ago where we're we're rating these roads on this app as we go down the road.

I know it sounds dangerous and foolish, but it was riding the twistiest roads in the nation while filling out information on an app. I know that's crazy. But anyway, in Germany, that's where we tried this. The cost of staying, even if you stayed in these hostels and places, you know, are these, you know, cheapest places over there. It was so expensive, and you couldn't get enough miles done in a day.

You might get 200 miles because of the way things are, just the the traffic, the weather. So, yeah, we did try it, and it just it's it's more expensive than you might not. You know, these are still just motorcycle maps and you sell one at a time. And so there's there's that. That's the biggest issue.

No. You're right. And it's it's so frustrating. So I have to do these trips two and three times to really get it to the level where by using a Butler map in The United States, it takes me two, three trips to Europe to get a route polished in. For instance, I will go over a pass and I'm like, that just looked like a normal pass to me, and this is the most amazing thing in the world.

I need to write that down. Or there's a time where, for instance, in Norway, you you pull up to a ferry, and, of course, people always talk to you because you're on a motorcycle with foreign plates. And they're like, oh, did you must have taken the Old Pass Road instead of that 22 kilometer tunnel because that's the most amazing road in the world on a motor cycle. I'm like, no. I didn't, but I need to catch this ferry.

So I'll write that down for next time. So people are are are really, really spoiled, with the maps here. And you're right. It is it is prohibitively expensive to do anything, in Europe. I think we spend between 20 and $30,000 in one month of, riding in Europe.

Can you imagine what it would cost to do the same thing in Japan or India or something? Oh, yeah. And by the way, the we sell maps, we we sell maps all over the world. The all of our maps are for The United States and part of Canada. But we sell these things all over the place.

And people come here, particularly Germans and in that area of of Europe, they come here and rent motorcycles, Eagle Rider, for example. And they show up on the West Coast generally and rent their motorcycle, and they get our maps. Usually, they know they know of these maps over there because we get we I haven't kept up with that in a long time, but we we used to get a lot of orders from Germany, but we get them from all over the world, Australia and places like that. They're coming here to ride. So I think that they go home thinking, I wish we had this, you know, here, you know, it it because it does make it a lot easier.

But I always thought it was surprising because we only have roads here. Why are these people needing these maps? Well, that's what they're doing. And by the way, we also have made a lot of maps for it. We made, specialty maps for Eagle Rider, you know, the motorcycle rental company.

Mhmm. Yeah. We we make maps for them that they give to their customers. They were using so many of our maps. They just said, can you make one for us and we'll put our name on it.

We also make maps for the Harley Owners Group, Allstate Insurance Company. Gosh, there's a bunch more. And Court does that. He's just really good at making these amazing little one time maps that that are you know, where we specifically make it for a company or for a group. And and for BMW too.

We've made it from made them for BMW and motor Motorrad. Yeah. That's great. Well, they they've got the budget. Right?

It's funny because we could talk for hours here, and and we're running out of time. But, you know, I take a ferry at least two, three times a month. It's called the Coho ferry from Vancouver Island over to Port Angeles. Our our headquarters is in Port Angeles, and I have family in Vancouver Island. And in the summer, it's, you know, twenty, thirty motorcycles every time on that fair.

And everyone talks, you know, for about an hour waiting for it. And I always, a few times a year, will find a group of German guys, you know, between 50 and 70 years old, and they're all on Eagle Rider bikes, and they've got this whole thing, you know, like a military operation. And they go, you know, we have 27 miles to go, and we're gonna be at the hotel. We've got that booked. And I'm really happy to know that, you'd be shipping a lot of a lot of, maps over there.

So now I understand, why they understand where all the great roads are. By the way, Aaron, it's it's there's nothing like, by the way, for us, Court and I, to go in. We this happened to us a lot of times on the road. We would go into a restaurant in the morning, and there'd be a group of riders huddled around a Butler map. That's great.

That was after we had out enough of them out there to see. Often we didn't go up and bother them. We just we did, you know, we didn't want to distract them by saying, Oh, we made those maps. But it's so much fun to watch these guys huddled around. And you can only do that with a paper map where it's big enough for everybody to just get around it.

You can't really do that with a phone. But, yeah, that that brought that to mind when you mentioned that to me. Yeah. Exact yeah. That must be really, rewarding.

And I think I shipped you a sticker. Did I ship you a sticker with that recording equipment? Yeah. So that is a limited edition. There's only 100 of those in the world, and that is our certified badass sticker.

And I'm awarding that to you for a few reasons. One, because you're crushing miles, obviously. And, for making guys like me look good and make us look like we know what we're doing. And, really more importantly for figuring out how you can ride a motorcycle for a living, which is something pretty rare. So congratulations.

We've given you your certified badass sticker. Well, I've got it right in front of me. I appreciate it. I will wear it with pride. I'm not gonna just put it on a motorcycle.

I've gotta put it somewhere else because I get rid of motorcycles. I'm not gonna get rid of that sticker. That's great. And and can you tell us where people can buy their own, Butler mat? Well, there were in a lot of dealerships, motorcycle dealerships around the country.

Particularly BMW, they those guys glommed on to these maps early on because of the dual sport nature. But then our website, butlermaps.com, and we're, you know, online and numerous other, you know, other people sell our maps, but, you know, butlermaps.com, is a good place. But, generally, we stuck we don't have our maps in Walmart or Barnes and Noble or anywhere like that. We tried to stick with the motorcycle venues, and so that's where you'll find them. Yeah.

And I think your marketing department might get mad at me. But if you go to butler.com and, butlermaps.com and sign up for their newsletter, every once in a while, you'll get an email with a package deal. Oh, yeah. And, if you're patient and buy one of those package deals, it'll really satisfy you for for several months of, of, map reading. So, anyways, I'm sorry if you're I'm sorry for if your marketing department is mad at me, but No.

No. They You gotta save a few bucks. We we are all about that. We we urge people to look at it on holidays. These come out Labor Day, Father's Day, and and Christmas.

That those are the those were our three main. We do more now, but those were the big times to save money. You'll there's there's a big difference. So, yeah, do that. We we urge you to.

We want the maps out there. We're Yeah. We don't need to sell big price stuff all the time. We want them out there where people are using them. Have them get them and have have a good time.

Great. Well, thanks very much for, giving up your silver mining to go ride motorcycles, and thanks very much for, for, for talking with us today. I appreciate it, Scott. Okay, Aaron. Thank you.

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Visit columbiamotorcycletour.com and start your adventure today. And we're back. Yes, sir. Nice. So, Aaron, if I had to rate that interview on the Butler Maps skate Yes.

What would it be? Yeah. I'd have to say that it was a g one, sir. Solid goal with a high level of twisties and elevation change, some level of peril, yet smooth like freshly paved road. Nice.

Now I was thinking more of a lost highway. A broken pavement. Outside. You know what I mean? But, you know, that was nice of you to say anyways.

Route 66. There you go. A little bit lost. Not sure where things are anymore. Some of that gas stations are closed down.

I thought there was a great origin story about the first lost highway. They were like, they're on a road. They're like, it's not a g one. It's not a g two. It's not a g three.

It's not it's not off road, but anybody on a motorcycle will be excited to be there. Like, what should we call this? So I thought that was great. Yeah. And they're so rare, but, you know, similar to the Route 66 story where they've, you know, paved in this giant motorway, and that that lost highway is no longer used, there are a few of them around, and they're worth going to to seek out.

And I've and I've taken them where you're on this road, and I'm like, this is really weird. Like, I shouldn't be here. This shouldn't be here. You have that very, very strange feeling. And in one of them I was on, the the pass wasn't paved.

And I've seen that a few times in Colorado and Utah, where you have this paved road and you come up to a pass or to come down off of a cliff where there's switchbacks, and all of a sudden it's not paved anymore. I haven't figured that out, why that's a thing, but anyways, yeah. Budget. Really, really cool. Yeah.

Budget. Okay. That makes sense. No more money. That's right.

Sure. The pavement has baby. Fair enough. But, I've seen that a few times, but yeah, really, really cool and worth, and worth getting your hands on a map and seeking out those lost highways. So when you did Route 66, I know there's pictures of you on the website.

Was that considered one of these lost highways? I don't think it's shown on there, but there is something I would call Lost Highway. It's the it's the Old Park Road or something like that, where the original Route 66 is. And that section is closed technically, but you can just go around it's in the desert. So you can just go around the Washed Out Bridge.

And that's definitely in the spirit of a Lost Highway, but it is not on the map because technically it is closed, but I've, I've been on there a bunch of times and I've talked to the park Rangers and no one's ever said anything, you know, so it's perfectly fine to go to go seek that out. Okay. Fair enough. You know what I thought was really impressive that stuck out for me is, like, he's 70. He started riding when he's when he was 55 years old.

So in the fifteen years that he has been riding, he has ridden more than most people will drive in a car, I mean, in their lifetimes. It's it's in fifteen years, he has crushed so many miles. It's what a what a how impressive is that? I know. And so jealous of, you know, having the wherewithal and and the the drive to go and do this project and having the excuse to go ride every day.

You know, I was you know, I'm so jealous about it, but it was you know, it's a it's a great tale that if you have an idea and you're and you're first to the marketplace, just, you know, just just go and do it. Yeah. And I thought it was also interesting the contrast between The US where they can crush between, I think, on the low days, it was, like, 400, and on the big days, they were doing six, six fifty in terms of miles. But in Europe, they could only get 200 or 300 just because things are different here. Right?

They're tighter and Yeah. Interesting. And then in our in our next episode, I think we have scheduled to talk more about Europe, and that's a great example. So when I was coming up to visit you going through Mainland Europe, you know, I would get, you know, two, three, four hundred miles done. And the only exception was was going from, I think, Upper Germany.

And I did, like, a 600 mile day, but that was all Autobahn. And you could just, you know, go as fast as you want. Right? And I think all of this go I think I went all the way down to Cologne and down to the Nurburgring. But that was the only time.

But, yeah, he's a % accurate. You just you just can't crush crush the miles the same as you can here. So it I thought it was also cool that you mentioned that Butler Maps, how you can how you can sign up if if you go to, butlermaps.com and you sign up for the newsletter. And it it was really cool. He was like, you know, on Labor Day, Father's Day, and Christmas, Jesus, we want you looking at those maps during those holidays.

So that's when we send out those, those newsletters. So you can go over to Butler Map, and you can sign up for butlermap.com. Butler Maps. Is it Butler Maps? I think something is yeah.

Butlermaps.com. And you can, sign up for the newsletter. And if you're in the spirit to sign up for newsletters, you can also go to adbkennenballrally.com and sign up there too. Yeah. If, if it's your first time to the web page, a pop up will come up.

But if not, you can sign up at the bottom of the homepage. There's a little form punching your name. I promise I won't spam you. I'll hit I'll hit you up once every sixty days or so. I promise I won't, I won't I won't send you messages from, from someone in a wheelchair asking for money or a prince that needs some help with a wire transfer, I promise you, none of those things will happen.

Okay. That's good. I had a prince just ask me the other day from North Africa if I would but like to, help him distribute the wealth through Europe. I said, no. Thank you.

I'm good. Don't worry. I got it. I just I took care of it. Glad you I'm glad you took care of that one.

Thanks. Alright. And as a closing point to the interview, I'd say hats off to anyone who can make a living riding motorcycles, and you cover that well in there. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It was fun. And I think, I think he's the type of guy that you want to have another conversation with because who else is talking about old silver mines and stuff. So I think there's a lot, there's a lot more in there to pry out of them one day.

Yeah. No. That he's definitely the guy that you wanna have on a long trip with him and then just, you know, hang out and, you know, these kind of conversations just happen. Absolutely. The information starts bubbling up.

Like, wow. So, Aaron, another great interview. Hats off. You did your homework and, it showed. So thanks.

Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for listening to it. So is there any rallying news you'd like to share? Yeah. So not everyone's replied to the important competitor newsletter.

So if you are a competitor in the twenty twenty five ADV cannonball, please, reply to that newsletter. And I wanted to mention who are people who are thinking of taking a look at the ADB cannonball. We have five rooms left for the 2025 event. And I also want to mention, if you don't mind, we have a little bit of shipping space available. We have one space inbound to the start of the rally if you want your bike brought to the rally, and we have three spaces open if you need your bike taken from the end of the rally back home anywhere towards heading towards the East Coast.

Please just send me an email about that. Aaron, one of the comments that we had from our from our good friend, Brian, was that it'd be nice to have a place where you could send comments. So where should people send comments if they're not on the on the Facebook site? Where should where could people send comments to say that they, you know, whatever they wanna say? Yeah.

There's two ways. The best way is podcast at advcannibal.com. And there's also a new feature on most any platform in the show notes. It says send a text message. And, through our service provider, you can literally click in your app, send a text message, and we will get that message in real time.

Cool. Very cool. Yeah. And thanks for putting up my photos that I did of the rides here around Sweden. I know you put those up recently, so thank you.

Yeah. It's fine. People, people love seeing you know, tearing up the trails in different parts of the world, so why not? Let's, let's share more often, I think. Yeah.

And here's something interesting. On Thursday night, I'm actually gonna go meet, another one of the individuals who is going to participate. As I said last time, I rode with there was four of us total who are gonna go to the nine total from India. And, I'm actually gonna to meet another individual who's coming in from New Jersey. So he is coming into Sweden, and, we're all gonna have dinner on, with Vijay as well.

We're gonna have dinner on, on Thursday night. Biker dinner. I'm missing out on all the fun stuff, man. Yeah, man. But I think, I think you're coming this way.

Right? You're coming over, stateside? Yep. I'll be in, I leave, I leave at the end of this week for The States and I'll be there and we can, yeah. So I'll just have, I'll have time to just be like one big podcast the entire time that I'm there.

Okay. Well, we'll have to take it easy on on all the beer, but maybe we'll have to, substitute for a Miller Lite instead of these, these high gravity IPAs. Yeah. Absolutely. So the next episode so next week's episode, we'll be talking about the you know, we we've talked about this over and over and over again, and, we we haven't really gotten there.

But you did hint and you did mention earlier that we will be getting to it. And, Aaron, without further ado, what will we cover in next week's episode? We are going to do Mainland Europe. We may even if we have an all whole hour, we might even do a two a twofer, and we'll finally, talk about the last European trip, and all of those GPX files. And a guide is available on the main website at adbcannibal.com for free, and feel free to use those.

If you are thinking of, flying over, renting a bike, or maybe if you're listening in The UK and you wanna you wanna do that trip, feel free and, use those resources. Fantastic. Good tip. And that's it. I don't have anything else.

How about you? Nothing for me. Thanks very much. Another great episode. Yeah.

Solid goal, baby. Solid goal. Put a goal from g one. G ones all the way. I'm gonna roll the g one outro.

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Keep your right hand cranked and your feet on the banks.