Ella Dawson on Politics, Escapism, and Diverse Romance | Rebel Ever After

In a world that often feels bleak, can a romance novel be more than just a fluffy distraction? This week on We Read Smut, Alesia sits down with author and sex culture critic Ella Dawson to discuss her podcast, Rebel Ever After, and the vital role of progressive romance in modern society. From debunking consumerism in book collecting to exploring why we need diverse stories now more than ever, this episode is a deep dive into the heart of the genre.

Ella Dawson is an NYC-based sex and culture critic and the author of But How Are You, Really, a romance novel about college reunions and millennial angst. She is also the host of the Rebel Ever After podcast about progressive romance novels. She was once internet famous for having herpes, but that’s a whole other story. Ella is proudly bisexual, anxious, and addicted to Diet Coke. Follow her on social media as @brosandprose.

Key Takeaways:

• The Buying Books Hot Take: Ella and Alesia tackle the idea that overbuying books is evil consumerism. They argue that being intentional with your money—like supporting Black debut authors or indie bookstores—is a net good for the industry.
• The Power of Progressive Romance: Romance isn't just escapism; it is a space to envision a world where everyone gets a happily ever after, regardless of marriage or children.
• Reading as a Window or Mirror: Alesia shares how reading diversely isn't a hardship but a way to learn about adjacent cultures and see oneself reflected in stories, moving away from boring high-level algorithm picks.
• Historical Romance as Political Commentary: Ella highlights how historical settings allow authors to engage with heavy topics like suffrage, classism, and colonialism with a unique sense of freedom.
• A Millennial Cranky Romance: Ella discusses her debut novel, which explores the specific generational experience of coming of age between the Obama and Trump eras while navigating burnout and economic precariousness.

"How you spend your money has a huge impact on what type of authors are given opportunities." This week, we challenge you to skip the major algorithm recommendation and pick up a book by a diverse indie or debut author!

CONNECT WITH Ella Dawson:

Website

But How Are You, Really (Book)

Instagram

Running list of books mentioned (Doc)

Transcript

Alesia Galati 0:00

As content creators, it is so important that we are giving space to diverse voices. And that is exactly what Ella Dawson is doing with her podcast, Rebel Ever After. And she's also an author. So we talk through her book, her story, her potential, next story, and so much more in this episode. Listener discretion is advised. This podcast contains mature content intended for adult audiences only. Hello, Ella. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. If you could start by telling everyone a bit about your reader and your author journey.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. So my name is Ella Dawson. I was definitely a precocious, introverted, only child, and books were my favorite thing. My parents like to joke about how when I was little we would be at the dinner table, and my dad would be like, put the book down. So I've always been a big enthusiastic reader. And when I was, I would say a middle grade reader to YA reader, I was always gravitating toward like romance plot lines specifically. So that was always what I found most intriguing. And I found authors like Sarah Desson, who were kind of the gateway to me of like, oh, I like, I like the feelings. I like those relationships. I like the character development. And I always knew I wanted to be a writer as well. I was writing fan fiction as a teenager. I was writing very bad original fiction in my notebook. I kind of created this world when I was in high school of interconnected short stories that all took place in the same theater department because I did the high school theater and I would print out the stories and I put them in this binder and my friends would borrow the binder. So from like a young age, I was self-publishing. But yeah, so from a young age, I loved books and I loved writing. And it's been really comforting as an adult in the last few years to realize this is really all I love and wanted, not all I love, but this is what I love most and what I want to spend my time thinking about and talking about. And that is valid. So books are great.

Alesia Galati 2:18

Yes, books are incredible. You actually, you actually unlocked a memory for me as you were talking, which happens often because so much of my childhood, I'm like, and we move on from that and we don't think about that because I grew up in a cult. For anyone who doesn't know, Alicia grew up in a cult, and we used to have to go to church services quite a bit, at least four times a week, we were in church, to the point where, especially in like high school age, I would have like a book inside my Bible, like while the sermon was going on. And then they started making us like write reports about what the sermon was about because we were getting so distracted. And so then, because they wanted us to be writing, I started writing stories during the sermons, and I'm like, oh wow, I forgot I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

There you go. There you go. I would get in trouble in class as like a middle schooler and high schooler for writing fanfiction during class, and my teacher would be like, I know you're not taking notes. Right. I know this is fanfiction. You're doing it again. You look too happy.

Alesia Galati 3:33

You look way too happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

You are not making notes on things fall apart.

Alesia Galati 3:43

That is so cool. So, yeah, thank you for unlocking that memory for being thankfully. You're welcome. It wasn't a bad one. So we're good. All right, so we have a new segment that we're doing for season three. You saw a little bit of it in season two. If you haven't, go back and listen to the last two episodes of season two. But we're gonna take bookish hot takes and share our opinions on them. And today's is the idea that overbuying books or buying a ton of books is consumerism and that it's extra terrible because libraries are literally free. So go ahead, Ella. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

I mean, this is like a two-part hot take. You know, there's like I the first part, you had me in the first half, Chief. Like, I kind of understand the idea that buying, especially when you're buying multiple copies of the same book, I'm like, why do you need them? Like, I I have friends who do this. I have a friend who has like eight million copies of Beach Read by Emily Henry. And I'm like, if that's how you want to spend your money, go for it. That's not how I collect books, but I respect it. And I also feel like anytime you are buying a book, and especially if it's at an indie bookstore or through a through a benefit, like whatever it might be, I think that's a a net good thing to do. Right. I do think there is a conversation to be had about the way that books have become almost like accessories and the way that people do things like book hauls on TikTok, and I think there's a conversation to be had about that. But I also just the idea that it is somehow even more evil because libraries exist, I'm like, I don't really understand what the two have to do with each other. Like you can get a book at a library, and that's amazing, and people should do that and make use of that resource. But what does that have to do with buying a lot of books? I just am like, if if you have the means to do it and you want to do it, that's your choice. And if you want to go to the library instead, that's cool. I just this is one of those moments where I'm like, what are you actually mad about? Like, I don't really under I can't follow the through line there of what you're cranky about.

Alesia Galati 5:54

That's I mean, I feel like that about most threads nowadays. It's like, what are you actually mad about? Like, I'm trying to understand what the point is, right? Like, could this have been a journal entry? Yes. Like, I saw someone post that we're like, let's bring back people writing in their journals instead of posting on social media, please. But I definitely agree with you. I think that yes, buying books has become, like you said, a bit of an accessory, and like, oh, I have to have this group of books or this color of books or whatever. But I also think that as someone who reads, I want to say, I actually should look this up to see what my percentages are. But I would say I probably read 80% indie. I'm not gonna find a lot of those at my library. Now that, like as of this recording, I think, and you can please correct me if I'm wrong, as an author, you would know better than I would that now if you have your book on Kindle Unlimited, you are now also able to put it toward the library. But I know before you weren't allowed to, so it was like a whole thing you couldn't request it for the library. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 7:09

I believe so. I don't know the nuances of it, but I know that there is there has been an effort to expand access to indie authors through libraries through Kindle. I don't really understand the mechanisms of it, but I've seen some indie authors be excited. So I'm like, that sounds great.

Alesia Galati 7:24

Yay, love it. Awesome. Yeah. And so I read majority indie authors where I am using Ken Unlimited to read a lot of my books. And if I buy them, I end up having to buy them from Amazon or from places like Scribble's Bookshop, where they have almost exclusively indie authors or the author's website. So like finding other ways that I can support them and have their book because I read it and I love it and it's a trophy now, right? But also I don't want to get multiple copies personally. Like that's just that's not something I'm interested in doing. And sometimes I will actually, if I see, like if I find a book later than like when it's originally published, I'll see if there's like better editions of like, oh, I would actually prefer that special edition, or actually I really don't care. I just want it signed. And when I say signed, let me caveat that with it doesn't have to be a hand signature, because that's a blist, right? Like we love a stamp. Yes, a stamp is fine. A sticker with a digital signature on it is fine. Like I'm fine with all of that. I just like my books signed in some way. And so anyway, I feel like buying them is great to support the authors, whether it's done digitally or through bookstores, like you said, supporting indie bookstores. I love going to like my local book festivals. I live near Raleigh and there's a ton of them. Like every couple months, there's some book festival or some book signing with an author. And so I'm always trying to find ways to do that and support them, but I wouldn't call that overconsumption just because I have 250 books behind me.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah, I feel like anytime we're talking about consumerism and capitalism and the money of it all when it comes to books, we have to be really specific. And I think my general approach is always I just want people to be mindful and deliberate with how they're spending their money. Like, there's a big difference between, in my opinion, buying a book by a black debut author versus buying the new Emily Henry or Ali Hazelwood. Like how you spend your money has a huge impact on what type of authors are given opportunities, what type of books are featured, like how marketing dollars are distributed. And so I think that folks should be intentional. And if you're making intentional choices to buy six copies of Beach Reed, I love that for you. I am glad to know that you are making that a deliberate choice. And I just that's what I always come back to when I think about conversations about consumerism, is I'm just like a lot of consumerism can you can look at people's financial decisions through so many different angles. And I think a lot about this as you were saying when it comes to indie authors and Kindle and using the Amazon ecosystem. Like from one perspective, yes, Jeff Bezos bad, Amazon evil. From the other perspective, if you're an indie author who's been shut out of traditional publishing for a myriad of reasons, or you just really love writing what you want to write and you want to put it out in this way, there's a lot of reasons to support authors in that ecosystem. So just make the choices that are in line with your own personal values and make them deliberately, is my hot take at the end of the day. Yes.

Alesia Galati 10:44

And on the library side, it's like not everyone has access to the library. That's really not a great opinion to have. It's like libraries are free. It's like there's not a bus in my community. My library, at least the main branch, there's one like five minutes from me. But the main branch was the big one, has all the resources and a bigger selection of books and has the study rooms and all that stuff. That one is 20 minutes from me, so I'd have to drive there. Maybe I don't have access to a vehicle, so then I have to walk to the elementary school branch where there's not as many resources, right? Like they're not maybe gonna have as many books for me as an adult reader as you know the major library would have. I won't wouldn't be able to bring my kids to their Lego programs that they have or their, you know, celebrations, right? So like you have to understand that not everyone has access, especially in smaller towns, to public transportation to be able to even get to a library. And so them buying a book or spending five dollars to get a digital book is not over consumerism. That's them getting and reading a book and enjoying it.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

So like let's be fine. And like we're living at a time where libraries are being defunded, where libraries are being censored in terms of communities demanding that they pull certain books. Like, libraries are under attack, and I live in New York City, we have a phenomenal library system. I can get all kinds of crazy stuff from my library, but at the same time, it's the hours are being shut down because Eric Adams was like, we're gonna pull a bunch of money from the library budget. So libraries are great, people should use them, people should advocate for them, but a lot of libraries just don't have the books that people are looking for, and they might be more easily accessible online. And as long as you're paying for the book or getting it in a legal way, great.

Alesia Galati 12:42

Yes, just don't pirate, folks.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

That's all I ask.

Alesia Galati 12:45

So, so important. That is like a side tangent for a whole other episode because I have lots of opinions on pirating things, and yeah. Anyway, so you have a podcast, and I feel like I need to read the podcast about because I think it just gives such a clear idea of who you are, the kind of content you have on your show, and then we'll get into more of the intricacies of it. But here's your about as we face down a second Trump presidency, we need the escapism of a good romance novel more than ever. But romance isn't a fluffy distraction from politics, which I agree. From its first transgressive pages, the romance genre centered the needs, desires, and ambitions of women. Now more than ever, we need romances that envision a world where everyone can live there happily ever after. Fight fascism and fall in love with Rebel Ever After. Join me, Sex and Culture Critic, and But How Are You Really? author Ella Dawson, as I interview my favorite romance authors about writing swoony, sexy, and progressive romance novels. From Jenny H. Howe's, I guess that's how you how is how you say Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Jenny L. Howe, I think. Okay.

Alesia Galati 14:01

Yeah. From Jenny L. Howe's perspective on fat phobia to Liana De La Rosa's passionate case for historical romance, each episode goes deep on how the genre reflects and shapes our society. Plus, has the internet ruined media literacy? Yes. Next. Will the smut discourse ever end? And why is Mothman so hot? Okay. I have like I read that and I was like, I am here for all of that.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Because yes, I haven't read that back and now I'm like, oh, I did write that. That is my podcast description. I forgot.

Alesia Galati 14:44

I know, right? We write it once and then forget about it because we just like only have to write it once. But I love the topics. I love the kind of your mission with it. But kind of walk us through what was that kind of moment where you were like, this needs to be a podcast, and I'm the one to do it.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah. So my debut came out last summer, but how are you really? And I learned a lot through the process. It was kind of a loss of innocence, but not all in a bad way. Like I learned so much about the way that publishing is structured, the way that all these different biases are still super present in the way the books are promoted and discussed. And I also got to go on tour and meet a bunch of authors and hear their experiences as they navigated publishing. And I found myself having these conversations behind closed doors or in DMs about what it means to actually try to write progressive romance novels, whether it's writing queer romance or writing romances where the happily ever after does not include marriage or children and the friction that authors face in writing those stories and publishing those stories, or just in the reception from readers. And I found it really fascinating and sometimes enraging and sometimes really hope-bringing because I think that we're at a moment where romance is booming, like romance is surging in popularity. It's more accessible than ever. And there are a lot of ways in which romance has taken so many steps forward in terms of who is writing these stories, what types of love stories we're seeing, who's being represented on the pages. And we're also at this moment as a society, like as a country, where things are really bleak. And so I have been thinking about this in 2024 and wanting to do a show where I interviewed authors. And then when Trump won, this became kind of my do or die crash-out project of like, if I'm gonna stay sane, I want to do this and I want to be a bit more intentional with let's talk about politics and let's talk about the ways that we as romance authors want to be a force for good and want to be helpful, and also want to write these escapist, beautiful love stories, and we can do all of that at the same time. So this was kind of my coping mechanism. It's also been my way to heal from like my rampant cynicism of oh my god, publishing is still an industry and still kind of depressing. It's been really amazing. I've I'm having so much fun doing it. I've gotten to meet so many different authors, I've got to have conversations that have kind of blown my mind, and I love it. It's been really fun.

Alesia Galati 17:23

So your book was traditionally published, correct? Yes. Yes. What's that process like for you, especially with like a debut in that time frame?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yes. So I had a strange experience when it comes to I think how a lot of other romance authors come to the trad space. I had kind of grown my platform as a sex and culture critic. I wrote a lot of personal essays, a lot of cultural commentary. I kind of came up on Twitter in like the 2010s where everyone was like, let's talk about how problematic The Bachelor is. Or I had kind of a breakout moment around me too and writing about the different forms of sexual trauma can take. So that was how I got my agent. Like that was kind of how I made my name for myself. And I always kind of thought my first book would be like a personal essay collection. And what happened instead was I completely fell in love with romance. And I went to my five-year college reunion and kind of was like, oh, my ex is like still really hot and my life is a mess. And when I went back to my normal life, I was like, that sounds like a great premise for a romance novel. And so I wrote a draft, and my agent was like, This is a mess, but like keep working on it and let me know how it goes. And so I wrote it as a romance novel, but we sold it as more like crossover genre fiction of like it's romance, but it's also literary fiction. And so it came out as a hardcover. It was kind of released as like a litfic pride book. And as a result, it really didn't reach the romance community. Like we kind of hindsight's 2020, we botched the marketing and the positioning. And so it kind of landed with a thud. And that was radicalizing just in terms of realizing how how much marketing works, how much placement matters in terms of the way that your book is positioned. And I loved my publisher. I had a great experience working with that team, but it also made me double down of like, no, I am a romance author. And like romance is great. And it also kind of sucks that like a literary fiction hardcover is seen as more of an accomplishment than writing a trade paperback romance. So I had kind of a weird experience where like I got lucky in a lot of ways, but my book crash landed. Like people did not know it existed, or people who saw it assumed it was about something different. And through doing the podcast, I've been able to kind of reintroduce myself to the romance community and be like, hey, I'm one of you. I wrote this book. If you want to read it, let's talk about how much this genre's great. So yeah, if people want to read my book, it's really fun. It's like a second-chance college reunion romance, and it also deals with like sexual trauma and PTSD and capitalism and burnout. But yeah, pros and cons. I'm happy to be here. I'm grateful my book is out in the world, but there's a lot that I would do differently if I could go back in time.

Alesia Galati 20:14

Yeah, it definitely makes sense, especially as someone who reads almost exclusively romance. Like, I don't really like if I'm in a Barnes and Noble because it's right by the red robin that I like to go and eat at. Then like I don't usually go to the literary fiction section. And so if your book is over there and has romance in it, I'm not gonna know about it at all because I it's not in the romance section, or maybe someone might put it there, right? Like there's some really great workers at my local Barnes and Noble. But I might not know, right? And so I I definitely understand that we're like having to rely on other people to like make these decisions and with the positioning, and and they flubbed it, quite frankly, and I'm so sorry that you had that experience. But what a cool way to like reintroduce yourself to the space and connect with other authors and their stories and their journeys. Now you have such, and this is the number one reason I wanted to have you on this show is you have such a diverse collection of authors that you have on your show. Why was that really important for you as you were kind of coming up with the list of people that you were like, I'm gonna reach out to that person to be on my show?

SPEAKER_00 21:34

I've thought so much about this, and even hearing you say that makes me feel self-conscious because I still feel like I could be doing better. And I'm like, I wish, I wish I were even more. Like it's it's such a difficult, fine line. I I mean, I shouldn't say that. It's not difficult. Something that I'm really grateful to the podcast for is it has made me read so deliberately and make sure that I am looking constantly for books by diverse authors. Whether it is queer books, whether it's it's books by people of color, like whether it's trans authors, whether it's books that are doing something completely different when it comes to relationship structure, like polyamorous romances, like it has really forced me to be intentional. And I'm never sorry that I read a book that I had to find or that I had to make an effort for because I'm like, oh, this is where all of the progressive cool stuff is happening. Like that is where the biggest risks are being taken. That is where the most change is happening. I can learn the most from these authors. And I love talking to a super successful front list author. I love hearing about what they've learned and what their response to what reader response has been. But my favorite conversations are when I sit down with an indie author and I'm like, let's talk about the weird stuff you're doing and how you're doing it and how talented you are. So I take the responsibility seriously of how I use my platform and I'm grateful for it every day because I'm like, this is I'm reading such cool stuff. But yeah, I mean, I also just I'm very aware that I am like a cis white lady in a space where I think the best work to push the genre forward is being done by black women. And I'm like, I want to make sure that I am the one talking the least on any episode because I have my perspective, I have my hot takes, and I'm a queer person, but I'm not the most interesting person on the episode, the vast majority of the time. So I just always try to remember that of like, I'm here to learn too. And this would be much less interesting if I were like running the type of podcast that I see a lot of like cis white men run, where it's they just really want to hear the sound of their own voice. Like I had to really think about if I'm starting a podcast as a cis white lady, I need to make sure that I'm doing something that makes the world better because we got a lot of podcasts already.

Alesia Galati 23:54

Very true. As someone who works in the industry of podcasting, the pod bros are my least favorite people in the world. And I'm constantly, I have two boys, I'm constantly showing them videos of idiots, adult idiots saying dumb things. Yes. To show them, and men and women, I don't care. Like if it's a person with a microphone in front of them and they say something dumb, I'm showing my kids because I want them to be able to have some type of media literacy where they look at something, they're like, oh, that's AI, or oh, that person doesn't know what the heck they're talking about. Like it's so important to teach them this now with the influx of AI and all of these different things that are like creating things.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

We're living in the era of slop.

Alesia Galati 24:43

Quite frankly, yes. It drives me nuts. But I love what you said about how you like using your platform as a space to highlight and elevate and also allowing you to read books that are so incredibly wonderful. I'm gonna get to that in a second. Let's talk about the platforming first. So, one of the things that I did when I started my podcast is when I knew I wanted to like talk to diverse people, and so on my spreadsheet that because I'm a I'm a spreadsheet girly. So on my spreadsheet where I have the list of the episodes, list of seasons, titles, here are all of the links, YouTube links, buzz sprout links, etc., I actually have like a checklist at the end of that episode where I have if it's racialized diversity or if it's disability diversity or queer diversity, LGBTQIA plus, etc. And so I have those three marked, and in both seasons, only one or two of the guests didn't check one of those boxes. And that was something that was like it's not to be like, ooh, look at me and all this. No, like it's something that I have to intentionally do and say, all right, I don't want to have a lineup of five people in a row where there's no diversity in this collection of discussions. And so, how can I make sure that the people that I do reach out to, that I schedule them in a way or I reach out to them in a way that's like, all right, this makes sense for what I'm trying to create. And I think that when as creators, we think about it that way, it's like, oh, this is easy because it's just reorganizing, right? Like, yes, you might have like a cishat white author that you're like, I definitely want to have you on my show, but I'm also gonna bookend you with diversity, right? And like that's okay, but you can still have that person on. It's not to say, like, no, you can't read their books, you can't have them on. And I loved what you said about the reading diverse books and like it's not a hardship to do. One of the things that I'm constantly telling people is that when I first started in this bookish space, so much of the algorithm was like, here are all the Emily Henry's, here are the Colleen Hoovers, here are these people who don't really have any queer rep, who are writing white stories, right? Like, that's what the algorithm pushes, those goodreads top books lists, you know? So, like, then I was like, I looked at the end of again, being someone who loves good spreadsheet. I looked at my diversity stack for the year, and I was like, I'm an Afro-Latina queer woman. Where the hell are the books that look like that in what I'm reading? Okay, like it was a wake-up call for me, and I was very open and honest of like, that wasn't great. I did not do great, and so now I'm gonna be more intentional. And I have to say, I have read so many incredible stories. I just had this discussion with my 11-year-old the other day because we were talking about fiction versus nonfiction, and he said fake versus not fake. And I was like, while that's true, we have to remember that words matter and the way that we talk about things matters. So while the story may not be a for real life story, like it didn't happen in real life, we still can learn so much in fiction about ourselves, about the world around us. And my husband reads like almost exclusively middle school grade books, and he was like, Oh, yeah, no, I've read so many good books that were fiction that taught me so much. And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, good job, good job. And then going back to the kingdom, I'm like, I'm like, so you can still learn, even though we say it's fake, not fake, it's important that the words we use matter, that it's real real things that happened versus stories that are made up, but remembering that those are either windows to the world around us or mirrors that we see ourselves in. And I have learned so much about even Hispanic cultures in the last few months of because I did interview quite a few Hispanic authors in season two, and I learned so much about cultures that are adjacent, right? I'm Puerto Rican, but like I had a Mexican friend when I was growing up, but that's as far as that extent went with the culture and like learning about the culture from someone who lives there and writes love stories that take place there. We had Leonor Saliz, who is a Chilean author. I had known nothing about Chilean culture or celebrations, and it was like, oh wow, like this is there's things that are similar, but there's things that are different. And what an incredible story to be able to share and like open the world to someone who's never heard about this. And I have not looked back and I think about like if I were someone who rereads books, I don't. But if I did, I would not reread anything I read in the first two years that I like got into the bookish space because they weren't great. Now that I like look back, they were lower quality and quite frankly boring stories.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

I won't be too mean because I have been getting myself in trouble lately with my temper, but I just don't get a lot out of a book about a bunch of white women in like a vacation town falling in love. I'm really happy for the people who love those books, for the people who write those books, but I'm like, you're in a beautiful cabin and you have a mystery job, and this man is gorgeous, and I just I have not learned anything. And I like I am the type of person who when I read, I like to learn something. I like to have my perspective challenged. I like to walk away with like a bigger vision for what's possible for my life. And I'm just like, I don't, I don't need that, but I'm happy for you on your speedboat.

Alesia Galati 31:05

Sounds nice. But yes. So I'm curious, what kind of do you read mostly contemporary or you mentioned Mothman, so I'm thinking there might be some monster smut in there, maybe. But what are some books that you're like genres or subgenres of romance that you're really enjoying, or authors from subgenres you're really enjoying interviewing?

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yeah, so I at my core, like when I read purely for pleasure, I'm like, I want a historical romance. I want to be in a ballroom, like I want longing looks. I love the tension and the horniness of a historical romance. And I also really enjoy the way that a lot of historical romance authors are engaging with political issues or classism or structures of oppression in a way that because it's the past, like it's I think like historical romance often has a little more freedom to be like, let's talk about suffrage or like let's talk about better working conditions because there's that remove from our present day. So that's my like favorite sweet spot. I love like an Adriana Herrera, Liana de la Rosa. I'm currently reading a lot of Catherine Grant, who is an indie author, who she wrote this incredible series called The Prestons that's like economics. It's about like an aristocrat who's like, I'm gonna divest entirely from any products made through colonialism in the slave trade and like what that looks like, and also like extremely horny books. And I'm like, this is so nerdy. I love this. Like, give me more of this. In terms of what else I'm reading, I like gosh, what else am I reading and excited about? My brain just went, no more thoughts for you.

Alesia Galati 32:42

Have you read Joanna Shoop?

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Yes, I love Joanna Shoop's work. I got to interview her about the Gilded Age and some of her work around representing. She did a great book. I'm forgetting the title. I there's a Duke involved, but she wrote a phenomenal book where the heroine is just like such a badass lady who is distributing birth control because it was illegal because of the Comstock laws at the time, and her love interest is this very sober duke who's like trying to avoid trouble. And it's like, oh yeah, you fell in love with this girl who's like breaking all the laws to help people have more sexual autonomy. Like Joanna Shoop got us. Yes.

Alesia Galati 33:26

I read a Notorious Vow by Joanna Shoop this year. After interviewing Claire, we'll have the episode linked in the show notes all about historical romance. And I'm not someone who reads a lot of historical romance, so I was happy to get a recommendation of one I liked. And I do like Joanna Shoop's sexy horniness in her books, which is good too. But in this one, it's a notorious vow, it's in America. The female main characters from England got sent over because her dad gambled away all their money, and she's supposed to marry this jerk. And the male main character lives next door to her, and he is deaf. And so he's creating an iteration of like the first hearing aid, and like people think he's crazy and like all this stuff, and like, but he's got so much money, he's like, I can just do my own thing, and like I don't have to worry about other people. And she's like, But these things are happening in the world, and you need to be involved. And he's like, I just want to do my thing, leave me alone. Why do you keep coming over the fence? Like, stay on your side, and so it is so fantastic, highly recommend, and it's horny.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

She's a great gateway author for people who haven't read much historical romance and want something that's like propulsive and sexy and smart, and like it is genuinely escapist. Like, I think a lot of people worry that historical romance will feel like homework, and I'm like, girl, no, they're fucking in carriages. Excuse my language.

Alesia Galati 34:57

Like it's explicit. We're good.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Good. Okay, good.

Alesia Galati 35:04

They do. Yeah, I absolutely love it. It is fantastic. I have not read Adriana Herrera's books for historical romance, but I did read some of her other stuff, and she's a fantastic author. She's on my list of historical, but I have to dabble in that. I'm more of a sci-fi girly. Ooh, fun. Yeah, I read a lot of like, and I've been realizing like one, there are a lot of black authors who write sci-fi, absolutely love those, where the typically female main character is a black woman, and then there's the beam me up space daddy. But there's like in two different camps where like I think people think sci-fi romance tends to be like Mars needs women and like a lot of breeding king, which is if that's your thing, go ahead, go off. That's great. But there's also the other variety where it's like they're already in space and the humans are already like living among the stars because of whatever reason, and they find like a faded mate. So it's got like that kind of paranormal faded mate aspect because the aliens, but it's always one-sided because the aliens feel it, the humans don't, or they might feel a little bit, but not really. And I just I eat that shit up. I was so here for it.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

I just lit up because I love sci-fi and I want recommendations because it's like a part of the romance space that I haven't explored much, but like I read a lot of like general sci-fi and watch a lot of sci-fi. Like my dad is a hardcore sci-fi person, so I'm like, wait, tell me more. We'll talk offline. I want to know everything I need to read.

Alesia Galati 36:47

I will have and we'll talk offline for sure, and then I will have an episode in season three where I'll give all of my favorite diverse sci-fi authors because there are so many of them. And I think that so often we think sci-fi, dune, Star Wars, the other one, Star Trek, that kind of stuff, but no, horny aliens. Or we think Ruby Dixon, which love Ruby, fantastic, and there's more diversity out there, so yes, I have Rex for days. All right. So for people who are like, okay, I want to check out your book and I want to know more about it. You gave us a little bit of a teaser about it, but what can people expect from the story? And do you have any plans on writing anymore?

SPEAKER_00 37:35

I have it here, my little baby. Yeah, so but how are you really? Is my bisexual college reunion second chance romance. The working title when I was writing it was just cranky millennial romance because it's I've gotten a lot of accusations of millennial cringe in the reviews, and I'm like, yes, you are correct. It takes place in like 2018-ish. They were in college from like 2009 to 2013 because I really wanted to write about like the very specific mini generational experience of being a young person in the Obama era and then coming into adulthood during the Trump years and being like, oh shit, like everything is broken. Actually, we're moving backwards. There are no jobs, we're all economically precarious. And I was thinking a lot in that time of my life of what does the happily ever after look like for those of us who will never be able to afford a home or are worried about losing, even being able to legally get married, or will never be able to afford to have kids. Like I was like, how what does a happily ever after look like for those of us who are extremely cynical and scared? And so I set out to write a book that was takes place over the four days of this college reunion. Charlotte, our heroine, is an executive assistant for like a tech bro publishing guy, like a thoughts leader. And he also happens to be giving the commencement address that weekend at the same university. I didn't realize this was weird. This is how my college does it, where reunion and commencement are the same weekend. So she's at the reunion, and then her boss will be showing up on the last day to give this speech because he's also an alum. And yeah, she happens to reconnect with Reese, who was her like senior year situationship. And she never really took him seriously because she was recovering from like a pretty emotionally abusive relationship, and he was a hot mess in his own way, and so they were really just friends with benefits. But now he has gone to therapy and is like really sweet, and she's still kind of a disaster, but they understand each other, and so there's a lot, there's like a sexually charged beer pong scene, it's really about nostalgia and how we can't go back forever, but we can reflect on who we thought we would be. But yeah, I love it so much. It's it's my baby, and I am working on something new that's like a new development. I had had really vicious writer's block for years after finishing this project, and so I'm really happy to be working on, I think it's just gonna be a novella. I might self-publish it because I just wanna I just want it to be out there, but we'll see. By the time this episode comes out, who knows? Maybe I will have made some choices, but I'm infamous for talking shit about wedding rom-coms and how annoying I find them. And then I went to a friend's wedding and had a bit of a fling and was like, oh, I get it now. I love that. Oops. So I'm writing like a wedding novella, and it'll have like an Ella Dawson twist that I will not give away too soon. But I was like, I want to talk about sexual health in this book, so stay tuned for that.

Alesia Galati 40:45

Oh, that's that sounds like so much fun. And as someone who graduated in 2009 from high school, yes, please.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Oh, I targeted you with this book specifically then.

Alesia Galati 41:00

It's like, oh hi, it yeah, that's that's me. That's my life. Except I went to Bible college where everybody's extra super horny and not doing anything about it. That's another story for another day. But yes, definitely understand the feelings of that era. But where can people find you? Listen to your podcast, buy your books, etc.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Yeah, so the podcast is Rebel Ever After, and it is available wherever podcasts are streamed. I also have a Patreon, patreon.com slash brosandpros, because I used to write a lot of pros about bros. I have since reformed. But yeah, that Patreon has bonus episodes of the podcast and also serves as like a free newsletter if you just want to receive updates about the show and what I'm up to. And then you can go to ellawson.com for all of my like book links for miscellaneous stuff. I'm most active on Instagram, threads, and blue sky. And my handle all those places is also at bros and pros, which I really should have just done my name, but when you stick with a brand, it you're kind of locked in. So I'm bros and pros.

Alesia Galati 42:20

Totally get it. We'll have links for all of that in the show notes and the YouTube description for anyone who's doing other things as they're listening to us. Ella, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for being on.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Thank you so much for having me. This is a blast I could talk for like six more hours with you. Same.

Alesia Galati 42:36

Anything to talk about books, I'm here.