Sabina Nordqvist on The Power of Own Voices in Spoonie Romance

In this episode, Sabina Nordqvist shares her journey as a disabled author, discussing the importance of authentic disability representation, the impact of internalized ableism, and how to create meaningful characters with lived experiences. We delve into tropes to avoid, the significance of own voices, and practical tips for writers and readers alike.

Key Topics:

• Sabina’s author journey and the decade-long path to publication
• Challenges and stigmas around self-publishing and traditional routes
• The concept of “spoonies” and how chronic illness affects energy and daily life
• The importance of accurate and complex representation of disability in fiction
• Harmful tropes in stories about disabled stories or characters
• Building community and support systems in disabled and chronically ill communities
• Practical tips for authors to handle sensitive representation conscientiously
• Sabina’s upcoming novel, It’s All in Your Head, featuring chronic illness and fake dating tropes
• Recommendations for other authors with authentic disability representation

This episode is a crucial listen for writers aiming to depict disability accurately and for readers seeking stories that mirror real, lived experiences. Let’s continue to elevate authentic voices and foster more inclusive storytelling.

Connect with Sabina:

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BOOKS/AUTHORS MENTIONED:

It's All in Your Head

Christine Miserandino (Spoon Theory)

Talia Hibbert

Melissa Whitney

Sonora Reyes

Kennedy Ryan

Running list of books mentioned (Doc)

Transcript

Alesia Galati 0:00

Representation across the board is so important in the stories that we're hearing. This includes disability as well. Today we're gonna be talking to Sabina about what it's like to not only live with a disability as well as chronic illness, but also to have that represented in the stories that she writes. Listener discretion is advised. This podcast contains mature content intended for adult audiences only. Sabina, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. If you could start by telling everyone a bit about your author journey.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

I started writing when I got chronic pain in my legs and I stopped being able to walk. I started in fan fiction and then I was like continuing to add disabilities to all the characters and quickly realized when I was getting feedback that like people wanted these stories. Like, why was I sort of wasting all my energy on someone else's characters to try to like give them good reps? So I started writing my own stuff, started writing mostly romance and fantasy. And then when the pandemic hit, I was still querying, and it I guess it had been like what, like six years, and then I was like, I'm gonna write something like a little bit lighter. I think for a lot of people my book still feels heavy, but for me it's like very light, more rom-commy. And so then I queried about two years after that, got an agent, went on sub, was on sub for two years, and then got a book deal, and then it was two years more. So by the time this book comes out, it'll have been six years since I originally wrote the story. So it's been a long time. And it's been, yeah, it's been over a decade since I started writing.

Alesia Galati 1:40

Wow. I'm really curious why you went the more traditional route rather than the self-published route. Because I hear a lot of authors are like, it takes so long to go from A to Z that like I just may as well do it myself, kind of.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah. The most blunt, honest answer is it's too expensive and I don't have the spoons. And also when I started writing and when I started writing this book, this was like around the time that like Talia Hibber and Helen Huang's like first romances were coming out. Emily Henry had like just published. I think like Beach Read was, I think that was her first rom-com. So like romance, which has always been popular, was like just starting to become popular, but self-publishing was extremely stigmatized. Like, I think it's only in the last two to three years where like now we've totally switched that 50% of romance sales are previously self-published people. But when I started querying, it was like you weren't even supposed to mention if you self-published because agents like thought that you're like a loser or whatever. Like it was so stigmatized. Now we have agents who like only want people that are self-published. So for me, it was mostly like, yeah, there was the stigma, and but then it was mostly like I started writing when I lost my job and I didn't have any money. So self-publishing, yeah, you can put a book out and it could be good, but if you don't have any money, you can't afford like a good cover, an editor. A lot of people that self-publish invest like 20% of their income in ads, and so I'm like, I don't even have the money to pay for an editor. So that's why I did that, but yeah, it was really long. Yeah.

Alesia Galati 3:14

Yeah, I can definitely understand that. You mentioned spoons, and when I was looking at the tropes for your book, you wrote Spoonies, and I was like, what is that? And to preface that, I have interstitial sicitis.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

It is awful, awful. It is the worst one of the characters actually has I see in this, so that kind of representation is so important.

Alesia Galati 3:40

I am blessedly one of the few people that it's not a constant chronic pain. I have a lot of really good days and I manage my diet as best I can. But red wine, I just cannot give the histamines. Yes. And I wasn't diagnosed until after I had my kid, my first one. And the doctor was like, Yeah, we don't really know how it happened, except that maybe while you were pregnant, his head might have been bumping up against your bladder and caused this issue. And I'm like, Oh, that's lovely. Thank you. The chronic illness, like I'm not unfamiliar with chronic pain and chronic illness, but I never heard the term spoonies or spoons. And so for our audience who's maybe like, me neither, what is that? Can you give us a breakdown?

SPEAKER_00 4:27

This is a sort of disability culture term that's evolved beyond the disability community a bit now. It's originally from Christine Mizarandino, who was trying to explain what it feels like to have energy for someone who has lupus. She had lupus, so she did kind of illustration with her friend at a cafe, I think, where she put out a bunch of spoons from the restaurant and said, okay, you get 12 spoons, and each spoon basically signifies energy. So then she's like, okay, if you're like a healthy person, you get 12 spoons a day, and maybe you just shower, you don't even have to use a whole spoon. But me, like I shower and you take two spoons away. I drive my kid to daycare, that's three spoons. Then I go home and I work, you know, that's five spoons, and I know I can't do math, but now my spoons are already gone. And so it was like it's comparing energy and energy pacing is a good word to put it. And so if you say, I don't have the spoons, it basically means I don't have the energy to do this. And it's not just like the amount of spoons you have, it's also people who are chronically ill usually don't wake up with the same number of spoons. So another example that I use in my book is if you're a brand new iPhone and you have a great battery, and then you charge it overnight and it goes back to 100%, and then you wake up and then you have the whole day for it to drain. Bill Pike, my character, says that he's like an old battery that only charges 40% at night. So he wakes up, doesn't have as much energy, and then already by like midday, he's done being able to do things. So for some reason, she blogged about it and that became really popular. And now people will say, I don't have the spoons, I'm a spoonie, like spoon I.e. That's a big thing. So I've been calling my book a spoonie romance, and it draws like a certain target audience because people want that kind of representation. And it doesn't have to be just chronic illness, it can also be with like mental health and disability, but it primarily started with chronic illness, and my main character is chronically ill.

Alesia Galati 6:24

Yeah, I can even think like people who my mom was manic depressive, right? And so there would be days where it was like she has no energy, she is not getting up off the couch, someone else is gonna have to figure out meals, right? So it's not like you said, it's not just like a physical ailment. It could be your brain does not have the spoons for today. You gotta work with what you have, and it can be really hard, especially with more invisible illnesses like interstitial sicitis or manic depression, where people don't look at you and see, oh, you're in a wheelchair or you're using a cane or whatever. You have that dual representation in your book, right? Where one has more of a quote unquote, and I I hate the using the word invisible, but like visually you cannot see the person's ailment. And then one that is more visible. Why was that kind of important as you were developing these characters in wanting to express that kind of representation on both sides?

SPEAKER_00 7:22

The first thing that was before I even wanted to express anything, I just I have all the conditions that Skylar and Pike have in my book. And unfortunately, disability is not yet like popular enough. Publishing doesn't have enough confidence in disability representation that we get to have a lot of complex chronic illness. Like me, I have 12 diagnoses. I would be not relatable to anybody in the publishing world. So I split up my diagnoses. So Skylar has my neurological conditions, she has pots and IIH, Pike has my mobility aid, as well as chronic pain in his legs. And then the side characters, like one of them has intersocial societies like me, one of them has EDS. I just like need to split them up. But in terms of like why I think it's important, is just like from what I've come up against and my friends who write about chronic pain and chronic illness, there's sort of like a palatable version of disability that people can write about. And people who aren't disabled tend to get rewarded for writing our stories, and they tend to come from this like abled gaze. And a lot of them end up being harmful. Like I'm a sensitivity reader as like a part-time job, and so I see a lot of harmful rep and people who are trying to get it right. But a lot of these books that are getting published, they're not really doing the work. And I personally believe that we should be doing, you know, what used to be called own voices. Like we don't have enough people who are disabled who have the disabilities of the books they're writing. And I think that should be like prioritized. That was one of the things. And then also I'm really into like the online spoonier disability community. When I became disabled, I became like very isolated, lost a lot of friends, couldn't do a lot because I lost my mobility. And then with COVID, like that got even worse. So most of my friendships and stuff are online. And I felt like in romance novels, we often have like a group of best friends. They all work at the bakery or they all work at the law firm or they live in the same neighborhood. They grew up together. And so I was kind of like, what would this look like if we did this from like a disabled lens? And I immediately thought of support groups. So for that to happen, pretty much everyone in my book needs to be disabled because otherwise they wouldn't be there. But I didn't realize like how difficult it would be to get that past like gatekeepers, because the more you pay attention to it, the more you notice that most books, and I don't think it's because authors aren't trying, but most books that get published and do well have one disabled character, and then they're like surrounded by all these able people, which that sounds lovely, but most people that I know who are disabled are in a lot of community with other disabled people. And so my book also emphasizes community care. And I think that's something like my book also talks about like ableism and stuff like that. And you don't see that a lot in romance because it's like a little bit more escapist. And so I just, when I was reading all these books, I was like, yay, there's a representation like Talia Hibbert's book has fibromyalgia. And I was like, oh my gosh, fibromyalgia. But then she lives in England and she has like good medication and good doctors and has a lot of money. And so I was kind of like, I'm in this situation where I'm pretty poor, I don't have good doctors, I have a lot of gaslighting, I don't have good medication. And so I wanted to have a character that like wasn't on the tragedy end that we see a lot in sort of those inspiration stories, but also wasn't like their whole life is together because my friends and I fall in that middle. So I felt like Skylar and Pike together showcased both aspects of that I was trying to bring forward. And they have competing access needs. So, unlike a lot of romance novels where we get like a guy who's healthy, which is great, like we want someone to take care of you when you're sick. Pike and Skylar have to figure out how to take care of each other while also both having chronic pain. And that's really difficult when you're in a relationship with somebody who's also disabled because you're not always going to be able to like carry someone somewhere or be healthy when the other person isn't healthy. So I thought that added a lot of tension and it was like also more realistic, I think, of like the things that I've experienced. Yeah.

Alesia Galati 11:15

Oh my goodness. So much. Sorry, that was a lot. I like all of it. I'm like nodding along and I'm like, I need to have where's my paper? Where's my paper? I think that owned voices is such, and I'm they have lots of feelings on this, and I don't want to get into it too much, but around gay romance, right? And how there's a lot of women writing gay romance and how important it is that we have men writing their stories and men writing their romance stories and follow the men who are writing gay romance. But owned voices is so important because, like you said, it might not be intentional, but it can do harm to the communities and to the people who maybe have those disabilities where they are like, Oh, I'm so excited to see myself reflected in this, only to be like, now I feel less than, or now I feel like I'm a burden, right? When that's not the case. And so I think that owned voices is so incredibly important. That's so interesting, like finally being able to see your disabilities and be able to have them in each of the characters in that way. I think is really cool. And like you said, it does make sense, especially with the rise of COVID, that people who have disabilities would have to like almost create the community in the found family that you need, which I love that you have found family in your book. So excited about that. And I did want to talk to you about your sensitivity reading because yes, a lot of readers listen to this show, but as we know, most people who are romance writers are also readers. Getting into that a little bit, I'm curious what are some ways that you do see that people maybe in an unintentionally, right? I'm not saying people do it on purpose, but might unintentionally cause harm to the community. What are some things that authors or even readers should look out for when they're like, oh, I want to recommend this book, but I don't know if this is good representation.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

I think one of the things is I always encourage people to say, can you think of five books that have this representation that are written by an author who has this disability? And I will say there are some people who aren't able to disclose. It's not safe, maybe because of employment. So I think people always get a little bit like worried, like we're trying to force people. But it is an interesting thing if you look around. It feels like a little bit too much of a coincidence that it's more accepted if you don't disclose when there are so many people who are writing novels who are very vocal about disability justice, masking, all the stuff that's going on with the government right now and disabled people. So it's weird to me that the only people that are writing these books theoretically and getting published are people who might be disabled. So I think a lot of us have reached the point where we're like not really wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt because we've been burned. So then that's unfortunately something that happens. Like I know that happens also in like the LGBTQ community. Not everybody can come out, but I think that there's a lot more people who are out who are writing queer romance, whereas with disability, it still isn't like that. So that's one thing that I ask. Another thing is if you're looking at a book, are you examining if like the tropes are harmful? Because there are a lot of tropes in romance with disabled characters that tend to be things that most disabled people know about, but maybe not every abled person. For example, one thing is like the disabled person being inspirational. I've mentioned before that one thing that really bothers me is, for example, I don't know, you'll have a guy and he's like one of those alpha hole characters, but then you find out he has a sister who has Down syndrome. And suddenly he's redeemable because he's nice to his sister who is disabled. And that's just really using the disabled character as like a prop for this other person's life. So is the book actually giving the disabled character like their own arc or their own agency? So they're not just there to make other people feel better. But that's like a societal thing because we have that whole like the only disability is a bad attitude. And I think that's leaked into I'm so glad I've never heard that before. Oh, no, that's like my that's Scott, it's I don't know how old you are, but like a Scott Hamilton, he's like a famous Olympic ice skater. That was like his phrase because he got cancer. And I said that was like something that he coined, and yeah, all the time I'm like memes and stuff. And then disabled people are like, no. And then another one that I've been mentioning this one a lot because it's really bothering me, is I've been finding more books lately that are really popular and like literally hitting the New York Times list, though I can't say which ones they are. But they advertise the book as being about a chronically ill person or even sometimes a terminally ill person. And then if you're somebody who's greeting from a disability lens, it's pretty easy to pick up from the beginning that the person isn't actually sick at all because they refuse to go to the doctor, they've never gotten a diagnosis, which you don't need a diagnosis, self-diagnosis is valid, but like in these books, it's just framed as, I just don't want to. It's not that they did all this research, they just decided that they had this illness. But then you follow this character and then you get to the end, and there's this big twist where it's like, really, I don't know, their mom is mentally ill and making them be sick, or they were never sick at all. There was one recently where like they just ended up having like tendinitis of the elbow, and I have tendinitis of the elbow, and I was sitting here thinking, like, how can you possibly think that you have like a terminal illness from this? I don't know. I'm like armchair diagnosing over here, but that one bothers me the most, I think, almost even more than like the disabled character dying of cancer at the end, which is also like a common one that we're getting away from. But like when you advertise a book as chronically ill and someone who's chronically ill invests in that story, it's exciting because you think, how are they gonna make it work? Because they can't do all of the same things as a healthy character might be able to do. But then you get to the end and you find out, okay, yes, it's the same message. They think they're a burden, they break up with their love interest, only later to find out they really don't have any sickness at all, and now they can be together. So my book rejects that because mine is like, they will be staying sick and they will figure out how to be in love, despite that, because you don't have to be cured basically to be healthy. And that's if you're promoting a story like that, that's your prerogative. But know that a lot of disabled and chronically ill people are very hurt by those types of stories, and they are very popular. So that's one of the main ones that I think people could be on the lookout for.

Alesia Galati 17:53

And it's not a reflection of real life either, right? So I mentioned my mom being manic depressive, she also had fibromyalgia to the point where I'm fairly certain it was that plus perimenopause symptoms, and they just are brutal. Yeah, did not care about it at the time when she was going through those diagnoses. It wasn't really talked about. Like she couldn't like button her genes, and she would like I lived far away from her, so I wasn't able to be like see her in her like at her most painful, but she was like, Alicia, I can't even button my genes. Like, I don't know what's wrong with me. The doctors don't know what's wrong with me, and I don't know what's going on. But then you would see her with her partner, and he was the most uh loving, sweetest, like kindest person on the face of the planet after she had passed. We were like, I got to know him a little bit better because she just met him. I'm we're all adults. She met this guy and went off with him, and I was like, cool, like as long as you're happy, I'm happy kind of thing. And so I got to know him better. And Pat is the he is the sweetest human being on the face of the planet, like, just so loving, cared about her so stinking much. And so, like, to see that reflected as like you don't have to be quote unquote healed or perfect by the end of your story to get your happily ever after. That is not real life. And there are people who genuinely love and care about people who have disabilities. And yeah, I think that it's so important that we see that reflected in the stories. And I don't read the ones where everybody dies at the end because it's not a romance, no, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Yeah, no, and I think the hard part too is that sometimes this is actually, I don't know, something I've been thinking about lately that's more like a craft thing that I don't know if other people have noticed, but I've noticed too that in a lot of stories, the disabled character feels like a burden. And that's not like a bad thing. We don't want to be burdens, but that's something that's very realistic. It's internalized ableism. But what's weird to me in a lot of these stories is there's no external ableism. Like they have good family members, a good love interest, friends, they have good treatment. So, like, even though, yes, we can accept that there is ableism and we know that kind of inherently, if you're looking at it from a craft point, I'm always sitting there wondering, like, well, where did this ableism come from? Like, why do you think you're a burden if there aren't people on page who are treating you like you're a burden or was that your wound? Where did that come from? And so I find that interesting because it's almost like you scratching the surface of, yes, that's something that would totally be a wound maybe for a disabled character, but then it's not like addressed, if that makes sense. And then at the end, they kind of get together and it works out because the other person loves them, but it's never untangled. Where did you get these feelings? How do you start working to get rid of internalized ableism? You're not a burden. It's interesting, it's almost, it feels like ableism is like a dirty word in romance novels, I think. I don't know. And I know that for me at least, like I at multiple stages of this journey, I was encouraged to find synonyms for ableism. And I was kind of like, there aren't really that many. So it's I've gotten reviews like that too. Like, why does the author have to use the word ableism? Like, this is like a realistic thing that people talk about in our communities when faced with ableism. But I don't know, that's kind of like a picky thing, but that's something to pay attention to. Is does your character think that they're a burden? Where is that coming from? And not just like our reader assumptions, but is it actually in the novel that they should feel that way? Because you're not born with internalized ableism. It's something that you learn from society.

Alesia Galati 21:29

Yes. Oh, that's so true. We had an episode, and I'll link it in the show notes, with Linnelle of the Weekend Reader talking about as readers, a lot of us. We were talking about if reading comprehension is dead. Kind of yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

The news is saying it is, I think.

Alesia Galati 21:47

But like, especially in the romance space, how a lot of us go into romance for vibes, for escapism. And I'm definitely a vibes writer, right? Five stars, loved it. Did I see the plot holes? Not unless you tell me about them, right? Let's just How I read them. But as a sensitivity reader, it would make sense that you would look for those types of things and like working with the author and how can we make sure that we're reflecting this, that we're showing more depth to these characters. So that definitely makes sense. And I think that we can maybe do, especially if we're gonna be recommending books, just keeping these things in the back of our mind of all right, is this a real reflection of someone's lived experience? Are they using the disabled person as a prop or to make make the alpha look better? Definitely read those, and I'm like, Yeah, the character, the side character shows up once. And it's like, oh, that's cute. Everything's fine. No. So tell us a bit about your book. It is out. Everybody go check it out. You also have an audiobook out, but tell us a bit about it, what we can expect, some of the tropes, the characters, etc.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Sure. So this is my book. It's called It's All in Your Head, which actually, if not everybody, I realize not everybody knows, but is a common phrase that is told to people who usually have invisible illness. I have a little author's note about that in the beginning, but it also has characters that have neurological conditions and it has fake dating, so all tied together. And it's about a woman named Skyler, and she's chronically ill, and she runs an online chronic pain support group for her local community in Rochester, New York. And she's been like eyeing this hot new guy who writes broody poetry about his pain at night, and she's hot, so she's been noticing him. And then there's this chaotic thing that happens in the group, and so they reluctantly start fake dating to mitigate this situation with family members who are getting a little too involved in their lives. All fun and games, but then she realizes that he's not just some guy, he's actually an Olympic snowboarder who has a career-ending injury, is like he's recently injured, and his bedroom skills are as legendary as his skills on the slopes. So he has a bit of a Playboy reputation, but he's been media quiet for about two years now since his accident. And the paparazzi catches on to Skylar and Pike's not so fake dating scheme, and they are starting to have genuine feelings, but it goes into public perceptions of disabled people, invasive questions. It has themes of grief, vulnerability, and community care, but it's also like funny and swoony. It has a lot of spice. Kirkis said the sex was super hot, which I can't get over. I didn't know they said something like that. But yeah, it's spicy too, and it's meant to be funny. And there's my favorite part are not just Skylar and Pike, but there's this core support group, and Skylar has two best friends, and so they're all like chaotic, supporting each other through pain, but also egging each other on when it's time to share body heat in a snowstorm with only one bed and things like that. So I tried really hard to do like a lot of the tropes that I love. So it's got fake dating, a secret celebrity, that like quick kiss me trope. It has dual point of view, chronic illness representation, chronic pain representation. It also has a depression and mental health related to like doctors and stuff, but it's all wrapped in a disability lens. So basically, I just thought, here are these tropes and how can I make them disabled, basically. And so that's my book.

Alesia Galati 25:20

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I one, I can't wait to read it. I have an early copy. So I'm so excited to read it and get to meet these characters, especially your character with interstitial cystitis, to be able to see that reflected. I'm so excited. Because yeah, I feel like when I got my diagnosis, I was like, what in the world is this? Where do I even find like information on this?

SPEAKER_00 25:47

I found a Facebook group and then realized very quickly that I'm probably in the same Facebook group. It is interesting how support groups are primarily still on Facebook.

Alesia Galati 25:59

Anyway. So I'm so excited to see that reflected in the story. What is one thing that you wish that people stopped telling spoonies, especially authors who are trying to write these stories?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

It's less like a direct phrase as it is just like believing us. Like I feel like people are very uncomfortable with pain and uncomfortable with chronic illness. Like I always say, like in the beginning, people show up with like casseroles and care boxes, but then when you don't get better, people vanish. So I just wish people would take more time to actually follow up with people and stop assuming that if we look fine, then we must be fine. And if we're not fine, that we're complaining, like all those kind of little things that are microaggressions that people don't realize that they're doing, but really get in the way of like friendships and family member relationships.

Alesia Galati 27:10

Yeah, I saw someone posted, they weren't talking specifically around disabilities, but on threads. They were talking about how someone was like, it's difficult to be friends with you. And of course, like immediately, like shame feelings, immediately like wanting to be like, screw you two, right? And they were like, in that you challenge me, you challenge me to show up as my best self, you challenge me to like whatever. But I feel like a lot of disabled folks, and when you have a disability, because you only have so many spoons for your day, for your week, for whatever, like especially because a lot of it can be day-to-day feelings, that it's hard to take the initiative. And then I think that it's important if you're someone who if you have disability, if you don't have a disability, if you have disabled friends, right? If you know someone who has a disability, invisible or otherwise, send them a text. Tell them you're thinking about them because I feel like because the disabled folks only have so many spoons that they can give to the day, they're thinking about you too, but they just don't have the energy management to be able to be like, I'm going to take one of my spoons today that I need for later to make myself dinner to send a response to this friend or to tell this friend that I'm thinking about them. So if you're feeling up to it today, send a message to your disabled friends. Tell them you're thinking about them, that you care about them, because you're right. I think that especially and maybe this is just because of society and movies, etc. But there's this idea that, oh, you're supposed to be better when that's not really how a lot of disabilities work. You don't get better.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Yeah, and that's the thing that I was seeing in romance too. We definitely have a lot more representation now than we did when I started writing this book, but there are definitely still reviewers on lots of people's books who say this isn't really a romance because they're not cured, that sort of thing. And it's just it's interesting because while romance is escapist in a lot of ways and it's a fantasy of romance, a lot of disabled people, their fantasy is to find somebody who is good with their accommodations, who can adjust during sex, who will go to medical appointments with them. So it's like just a totally different facet of relationships that I think some people don't consider. Yeah, we also have things we dream about when it comes to that sort of stuff. And on your point too about like messaging your friends, I think also just not being upset if people cancel, because usually people want to come, but sometimes they cancel because they don't have enough spoons, or sometimes the event isn't really accessible. Like I can't even tell you the number of like weddings that I've gotten invited to where I've shown up and I'm like, I have to leave because like my body is breaking, and then you know, because you can't really participate, especially with mobility stuff. And for people who have energy, like I have other friends though, who they got invited to weddings and they have a little sort of sensory room. So people who are neurodivergent too, not just chronically ill, people can rest. So I feel like there are lots of things that you can do if you really want to see your disabled friend, just include them more, and then they're usually very happy to share the things that will make things more accessible so that they can hang out with you.

Alesia Galati 30:29

Yeah, 100%. I got a kiddo who's autistic, and I'm like, if we're going somewhere, what are the things like these are things that I have to think about and consider? Do we have the earplugs? Do we have the headphones? Do we have all the things that we need in order to make this enjoyable for everybody and also for him and make sure that he feels supported in everything he needs? And it's true that if you're inviting someone somewhere, they might get there and then be like, actually, I can't go to this event or I can't do this thing with you, like or I don't have any more spoons today, and I'm having a flare-up, or like it could be anything. So it's really important to consider that.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

And that's like in general, something that I want to see more from romance because I do feel like a lot of times for agency and plot reasons, the disabled character has to like keep pushing through so we can seem like we're the same as everyone else. But I don't know, my position and a lot of people is just it's okay that we can't do everything else. So, like in those moments where maybe you're not able to do everything that healthy people are able to do, what could happen in this plot? It can still be interesting, you can still have a fulfilling life and a romance and stuff, but it just might look a little different. And I think that's yeah, I would just love to see more of that in romance in general.

Alesia Galati 31:44

Yeah, it's very similar to like people who are like, Why would I leave my house if I pay my mortgage to be here? Like the plot doesn't always have to be outside the house, guys. Plenty of you can do in the house.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

It seems like it does, but yeah, it's yeah. It's a big difference between like people who are writing the stories and then people who perceive the stories who aren't disabled. And that's I wish there were just more disabled agents and editors who get these kind of things.

Alesia Galati 32:11

So yeah. I said that to my husband the other day. He saw a tool that it was like, I don't know, some type of opener for something. And he was like, I don't get it. And I was like, That's because it's not for you. Yeah, that's yeah. If you don't totally on point, it's probably not made for you, and that's it. And he was like, Oh yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Okay. But it doesn't mean you can't learn about it or even enjoy reading about it. Like that sort of the thing. It's there's a lot of experiences now that I'm seeing in romance that I don't have those experiences, but I'm still enjoying reads. And I think with disability, we're still a little farther away from that.

Alesia Galati 32:47

Yes, we need more of that. Other than reading your book, everybody go check out Sabina's book for sure, and we'll have it linked in the show notes for everyone to go read it, listen to it if you're an audiobook person. But what are some maybe other authors, maybe one or two that you're like, definitely go check them out as well. They have really good own voices disability rep as well.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah, I have like most of them behind me. So I'm like, can I remember them? I just read one recently that's also a 2026 debut. Celine Ong's Hold Me Like a Grudge. One of the characters has chronic pain, and the author is also disabled. I always recommend Sonora Reyes, uh, The Bro Posal, and then also the YA novels all have like really good mental health representation as well. I think most people are familiar with Talia Hibbert and Teo Williams Seven Days in June is like one of my all-time favorite books. Because I also get migraine, and that has migraine, and so does the author, and it's just steamy and angsty and delicious. Yes. And then I recently also read a self-published book by Melissa Whitney called At First Smile, and she's a blind author, and the character is a blind social media influencer. And like from the opening page, I was like, I'm gonna love this book because you can totally tell, at least I can from a sensitivity read perspective. Like usually it's there's like little clues that, oh, this is nuanced in a way that you're pretty sure this person is disabled. And I mean Melissa is, but you just when you get that sort of, oh, this is gonna be like about my community, that's like an amazing feeling. And I really I got that right away from her book.

Alesia Galati 34:23

So and what an incredible feeling too. And I think that it's so important that we see ourselves reflected in the stories that we're reading, but also see the world around us reflected. Like Kennedy Ryan, I've seen her speak a few times, and she was like, the books that we read are either a window or they're a mirror, they're a mirror reflecting our own experiences or they're a window to the world outside of us. And I think that it's so important that we have good representation to either of those, right? Whether it's a mirror or it's a window. And if we're just reading mirrors, maybe it's time to open a window.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Yeah. And speaking of Kennedy Ryan, Before I Let Go has like amazing depression representation. It's like a weird amazing depression. Like it's I love that book too. Kennedy Ryan's books are really good. Yeah. So I know I agree about the mirror and the window. Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it. Much more eloquent than I can.

Alesia Galati 35:23

I don't know. If you have the ability to go see her speak, because yeah, she's incredible. I've seen her a couple times for either she was a her one of her book releases. She's also like local-ish to me. Like I maybe drive an hour to go to some of the events that she does that are closer to her. Have that opportunity, thank goodness. But yeah, I've seen her a few times and yeah, she's incredible. But yes, all right, everybody go read books that are a window, please, and thank you. And definitely go check out It's All in Your Head. It is officially out, it came out on February 10th. So go check that out. Go give that book some love. Thank you so much, Sabina. This has been so much fun and getting to know you and also like commiserate over inducing cystitis and all of the things. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Thank you so much for having me.