Experts & Expats
The Experts & Expats podcast covers the critical aspects of moving to Europe, featuring candid stories from immigration experts and American expats who have already made the move. Hosted by the Living Abroad Academy.
Experts & Expats
Meet Founders Michelle and Jeffrey: Our Expat Experiences
Hear our mission with The Living Abroad Academy. Learn how our personal pursuits to live abroad have inspired us to help others successfully transition into a new chapter of their lives.
Article mentioned:
CNN - This US couple relocated to Italy after retiring. It didn’t go according to plan
Learn more about how The Living Abroad Academy informs and accelerates moves to Europe for Americans: www.livingabroadacademy.com
Jeffrey Jones 0:08
Welcome to the experts and expats Podcast. I'm Jeffrey Jones
Michelle Hippler 0:12
and I'm Michelle Hippler. We're co founders of the living abroad Academy.
Jeffrey Jones 0:16
We're so pleased you've joined us today. We set up this podcast as an extension of our mission at the Living Abroad Academy. We plan to introduce you to experts, expats, and others to help you envision and plan your time in Europe, extended visits, or even a move there.
Because we're Americans, one key thing is that we're focused exclusively on US citizens and information for them, so it'll be specific to those people. But first, a bit about our organization, the Living Abroad Academy. It was started by Michelle and I. We've been friends for a long time, both, you know, similar paths, even professionally. And it's funny, we've been through a similar process of exploring expat life in Europe and maneuvering the very interesting visa process. And you know, in many ways, we're still doing it, right Michelle?
Michelle Hippler 1:02
Yeah, we're, I'm still in the midst of it. You're sort of at the beginning of your journey in Europe.
Jeffrey Jones 1:08
That's right. I have the visa, but there's a lot. It's evolving. There's more to do. So, we'd like to start by telling you a bit about our mission at the living abroad Academy. We have some key tenets that you know, some promises to you. And this is a pretty funny one. We promise not to sugarcoat the experience of moving abroad. You know, many of you, you've seen videos. You've seen it's prevalent in social media. There's a lot of expats and influencers that, you know, oh, Sangria, tapas, you know, baguettes. You know, wherever they are, Everything's beautiful. and fun, and friends. A move like this is a wonderful thing, but it's also not easy. Take it from us, people that are doing it. It's also not easy, and can- and most likely will- test you.
Michelle Hippler 1:52
Yeah, yeah. I think if we get into like, why we even started doing this is one: you had a lot of friends. You had a lot more friends than I did asking you how and why you were doing it. And that's one of the reasons why we wanted to start doing this, but also we spent years on the Facebook group, you know, for different countries. I've had multiple countries I was looking at. Jeffrey was always interested in Spain. Well, actually, you did Italy, right and France too.
Jeffrey Jones 2:19
Oh, yeah, it's, yeah, that's part of our story. That's our journey. Yeah.
Michelle Hippler 2:23
But those, those influencers on YouTube, you know, the Facebook groups, it's like a lot of them are still in the honeymoon phase, or they are trying to make a buck off of explaining their life, right, wherever they are, so they don't really want to get into, like, the nitty-gritty and the downside of some of this that happens along the way.
Jeffrey Jones 2:46
Yeah, I think we really want to be realistic and give you a clear perspective. Like Michelle said, we're not here to sell you the idea of moving abroad. I mean, it could be a great thing for you, but, you know, I mean, we're helping you with the decision process to do it or not do it. And then, you know, if you decide you are right for it, then what could be the right place for you? There's a lot of decisions, right? And there's a lot of steps to get there. So, we'd like to be helpful to you in your process.
Michelle Hippler 3:12
Yeah, well, I was going to say that there are a lot of different motivations for why people want to move abroad. You know, for us, some of it was quality of life, cost of living, healthcare, you know, but also we're pretty big travelers. We always have been big travelers. But politics also sort of fed into it, just like in terms of quality of life, I equate the politics to the quality of life. And one of the things we don't want to get into, one of the reasons why we did want to move somewhere else was because people talking, talking, talking, talking about politics, and we don't want to do that. You can find that elsewhere.
We have our opinions, but we want to be respectful of everyone else's opinions too, regarding that, because you may want to leave because of politics that are the, you know, 180 from me, and that's okay. This is really going to be more about the process of moving, and some of the more sort of details of moving. And also just hearing a bunch of different stories why people are wanting to move.
Jeffrey Jones 4:17
Yeah, there really, are really various reasons. I mean, some of us just wanting that, you know, in the retired years, or as you get older, wanting to be able to get out and look around travel some more. Not wait once a year for a vacation, but you know. And down to politics, cause so many different things, and it can be all of it,
Michelle Hippler 4:33
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Jeffrey Jones 4:36
Yep, yep. You know, both Michelle and I used a do-it-yourself process, and you can do that. And we're doing that- I've lost track of, I believe I it was six years for me. How many years for you?
Michelle Hippler 4:49
Well, I'm calling it eight because it started in 2016, and where I went nomad, full time, and then eventually ended up in Southeast Asia for a bit. So, but it was during all of that time I was actually seriously looking at Portugal at that time too, but not ready or able to make that move at all, but researching. A lot of researching and Facebook group hanging out and lurking on those, you know, groups like that. So, it's been a long time.
Jeffrey Jones 5:22
Yeah, yeah, but similar for us. We had, my spouse and I, we had this idealistic vision of- shouldn't say that, but we love Italy. We still love Italy, but we thought, wouldn't it be great to be in Italy? And you know, that was 2000 similar to you. I think was 17 or 18. It's we started that. And you know, you start, you're like, then you start getting into the nitty-gritty of what is, what's involved in moving to these places, and you start seeing the complexity.
Michelle Hippler 5:45
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 5:46
And it's not just about where you want to go. I mean, it's a big part of it, but you know, how possible is it?
Michelle Hippler 5:51
Yeah. And you know, when I first started researching, it started with because it wasn't just the politics at the time in 2016. It was also climate change, and the realization that nobody in any governmental position was going to do anything to avert the worst possible scenario. So, I was really looking- I had a criteria, and I even sent an email out to friends who I thought might be interested in moving as a group to do co-housing, or eco village, or something like that. And the criteria included, you know, a number of different things, the economic stability, the governmental stability of a place, the climate, you know. I mean, I was looking at a lot of different factors, health care. And then there's the whole aging thing too, you know. I mean, we are nearing retirement age ourselves. And, you know, doing this so much later in life. I mean, I really want to think about, well, when I get to the nursing home stage of my life, what is that going to be like as a foreigner in a foreign country?
Jeffrey Jones 6:52
Absolutely, Oh, yeah.
Michelle Hippler 6:53
So it- there was a lot of things that went into it beyond like, I think what most a lot of people really consider for this type of a move. A lot of people are looking for adventure, like they want to just go live in a cool place.
Jeffrey Jones 7:08
Yeah, and yeah. I mean, and, but we were talking about years, right? I mean, you
Michelle Hippler 7:13
Yes.
Jeffrey Jones 7:14
Eight years, potentially, we had six. Not everybody has that timeline. I mean, and, you know, a lot of things are happening the world. Some people would like to move in the next couple of years. I've heard people that are like, I want to be like, I want to be moved by this fall, and they haven't started. Well, that's aggressive, but, you know, we're, we're, we're here to, we're here to hopefully be an accelerator
Michelle Hippler 7:31
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 7:32
for the process, because we've been through it. We've got things organized to help focus your thought. And that, really, I think, ties into our next tenet, and that is that, oh yes,
Michelle Hippler 7:39
Well, I was going to say beyond just the- being an accelerant through that process, that we can help with is that also to avoid, avoid things that you may not be thinking about. I'm thinking of that CNN article that we just saw. You shared with me- it was just like two weeks ago, I think, where they started out in one country, and a lot of things went wrong because they hadn't done some groundwork and some pre like, move, like,
Jeffrey Jones 7:39
Yeah.
Michelle Hippler 7:42
information-gathering, and they ended up having to leave that country and go to another one and find it. But it's like, that's an expensive mistake to make. You know.
Jeffrey Jones 8:16
It's nice to do a lot of that before you go. We were doing that. We got into the red tape mess before we left. And we were like, this is going to be, you know, some people are very successful in it. We're not slighting that country, but, but for sure, there's a lot of complexity that's nice to know about in advance.
Michelle Hippler 8:30
Yeah, yeah. That was in Italy. Italy to Spain, right? They started in Italy and then went to Spain and and that kind of follows your trajectory. You and you and Oscar are really looking at Italy? Seriously.
Jeffrey Jones 8:43
Yeah, yeah. We started in Italy. And I love- I still love Italy. And one of the nice things about Spain is being able to go to Italy quickly.
Michelle Hippler 8:49
Right.
Jeffrey Jones 8:50
We love, we love France. We were curious about Portugal. Spain, you know, Spain is a lovely country. No country is perfect, but they make it so- I don't want to say easy. It's not easy, but easier.
Michelle Hippler 9:01
Right.
Jeffrey Jones 9:01
To get a visa. It's a great process, and they're fairly well organized. I'm really surprised, based on things I'd heard.
Michelle Hippler 9:07
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 9:07
So I'm really thankful to Spain.
Michelle Hippler 9:10
Yeah, but also Italy kind of went a little south, politically and culturally in terms of your situation too, which took them off the map.
Jeffrey Jones 9:20
That's a great point.
Michelle Hippler 9:21
You know.
Jeffrey Jones 9:21
Yeah. I mean, you get- we said we wouldn't talk about politics, but politics go that far right- I mean, you know, it depends on what some people, they may love that, but I mean, you know, it's not for us. So, yeah, we're not, you know. And I know I have some friends that aren't necessarily focused on our topics, but they don't want to be in a climate that conservative. So, you know, you just have to pay attention to that. Politics is important.
Michelle Hippler 9:42
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 9:42
So, our next tenant really ties into that, and that is that, you know, especially Americans, right? We're working with you. You're very busy, and there's a lot to think about here. So you know, we really want to help you organize your thoughts and give you the info you need to make judgments and decisions. We want to help you organize that. So, you know, we've- we've been through it, you know, use our work to help you make your work faster and more painless.
Michelle Hippler 10:04
And one of the ways that we want to do that with this podcast is that our plan is to talk to a lot of different people who have already done it, who are already settled in a new country, and talk about their story, just share their journey. And then we also kind of want to mix it up and talk to people who are maybe at the beginning of the journey, and use them as like, come back later to tell us, like, what are you dealing with now?
At the same time sharing our own journey because we are- Jeffrey is completely into Spain. And I do have a resident permit for the Netherlands, but I still have a number of steps that I have to do to make it like solidified for my two years there, and I have to do that within six months. And I'm now starting to quibble about whether I want to do that or not. So, you know, there's just, like, all these kinds of stories so that, you know, that's kind of like how we want to share it, too, is to give you a bunch of different stories and then also offering some of the- some of the things that we have that can help accelerate the decision-making process, really.
Jeffrey Jones 11:04
So it's funny. A lot of people- they are very enthusiastic about moving. They're doing math. They're like, Oh, my health care is going to be cheaper or, you know, we'll be able to travel more. And one thing that they may not have thought about is: "Do I have the right personality to live abroad?"
Yeah, mindset.
Mindset, exactly. It's a funny thing, and it may not make sense, but one great example is I heard a story a couple of weeks ago about a couple that was returning to the US because they, you know, they wanted to shop. They wanted to buy a house. They were being, you know, it's kind of an American trait, you know, you want to have some real estate. So they moved to Spain, and, you know, they started, I don't know what part- at what point they were in the process, but they were looking at real estate, and they became frustrated. And, you know, we've experienced this. They don't have a formal inspection process like happens in the US. So that really unsettled them, so much that they left. They decided to come back to the US because of that detail. Now, that's a detail.
Michelle Hippler 11:20
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 11:25
I can tell you a lot of details are getting- you know that they're not bad. It's about things that are different. Are you comfortable with details changing, and how many details. And you've got to be flexible. It's- you might call it flexibility. You might call it patience, but things are going to change. You're changing the setting, and, yeah. You're going to have to bend a little bit. Change the way you do things, and be okay with it. Are you okay with that?
Michelle Hippler 12:23
Yeah, and depending on where you're going too. Like, each culture has a different way of doing things. Like Southern Europe like they're a little bit slower. The bureaucracy is known to be like challenging, especially for Americans when we're so used to having things, you know, when we want them, for the most part.
Jeffrey Jones 12:41
Exactly.
Michelle Hippler 12:42
But even like the Netherlands, my daughter and I were just there for a few months, and it was like, super Western, super efficient, you know, but weird things would just pop up that were like, "oh my god." Like, you can't use your credit card to have your groceries delivered. You have to have a bank card, you know. And so different things like that. And it's like, how how much patience do you have for that beyond the honeymoon period? Because, you know, in the honeymoon period, everyone's okay with, like, little things being wrong, but when it's a daily, or a monthly thing, or a yearly thing it's a different thing. So, we want to get- we kind of want to delve into that idea of what is the mindset, and what are the things to look out for and to consider before selling your house and packing everything up and moving. You know?
Jeffrey Jones 13:28
Yeah, I know we went abroad, stayed in Spain once we decided that was the country, and we'll get to that in a second. But once we decided that was a country, you know, what's a nice thing in this era of Airbnb is just go there and stay for three months.
Michelle Hippler 13:40
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 13:41
Grocery shop. You know, that's, that's part of, you know. It's good to get out of- you need to go beyond two weeks. Get out of vacation mode. And I call it vacation mode. There is also the honeymoon period, but get out of vacation mode. And, you know, stress test yourself.
Michelle Hippler 13:55
Yeah, I think it brings up, you know, how we were thinking about who our audience was for this, you know.We're not focusing generally on retirees, retirement. That is definitely a part of it, but we're both working professionals still. We work for ourselves currently, but I have been over in Europe living as a digital nomad, as an employee too. And so we want to kind of get into how to do that. I mean, Jeffrey, you're planning to- you want to retire as soon as possible right?
Jeffrey Jones 14:28
I'd retire right now.
Michelle Hippler 14:28
Yeah, I know. But it's like we're transitioning into that. We're not quite ready for it yet, and we still want to work while we're over there. And so, those are some of the other things that we're going to be really covering a lot in our podcast too, and in some of the little products that we'll be offering over time.
Jeffrey Jones 14:49
Yes, absolutely. So I just mentioned, you know, if you feel like you found a country that would be right for you, that's the next step. Once you realize, do I have the right mindset? You know, am I ready to go? What are my priorities? Then it's the country selection process, and that's a big deal. I mean, I think that was probably half of our six, if not longer, of our six-year process was figuring out which country was right. So, that's something we really want to help people with, that we, you know, our listeners, our customers. We really want to help you to, you know, find the right fit for you, as far as a country and an area to move to in Europe.
Michelle Hippler 15:23
Actually selection of the country- and this is what our compass is going to be doing. We're working working on a Location Finder Compass that we'll be offering. It's, you know, sometimes the country might be selected because of your mindset. You know that you can't deal with like extended bureaucracy, you know, and being told to go 40 miles south to an appointment, and getting there and at great expense, and, you know, time and effort to get to the appointment, only to be told, Oh, that doesn't happen here. You got to go over here, right? And so, but because there are other countries where the bureaucracy is not that bad. And maybe that's that's you know, that you can't deal with that.
And so, right? That's what our location finder is going to ultimately try to help if you are not decided on a country. If you have not decided on a country yet, we're going to be offering like, a way that for you to be able to maybe figure out what is a better country for your personality or for your criteria, you know? You want to buy real estate. You don't want to buy real estate. You want to be close to other countries where you can ski, you know, in the winter, and be on the beach in the summer. And so those are all of the considerations that we're going to be looking at, multiple criteria to help you accelerate that decision if you have not made a decision yet.
Jeffrey Jones 16:45
Hopefully that compass too will help you realize, not only you know, you might think you know your criteria, but it will probably most likely call out some other things you hadn't thought about.
Michelle Hippler 16:54
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 16:54
That maybe you should consider between these countries. So, you know, we're trying to make it all in one place, and especially our initial product should give you something that's pretty easy to scan, and it's a great conversation starter with whoever needs to make that decision. All right, so you know, unfortunately, and both Michelle and I have learned this is that you think you have some information on a country, or an area, or a visa, and then I can say, from Spain, the next month, it changes. Three months later, it changes, "oh, that's not offered anymore," or "oh, they really don't like tourists now. They're spraying people with squirt guns." You know, different things happen. So-
Michelle Hippler 17:29
For instance, let me just give an example that was a pretty significant example was Greece up until, gosh, I can't remember if it was July or August now, of 2024, people could get a- get a resident permit by purchasing real estate. I think it was 250,000 euro. Pretty cheap, yeah, pretty cheap. And then in July or August, it got up to 800,000 so that is something you really need to like-
Jeffrey Jones 17:57
For the same property, right? No.
Michelle Hippler 17:58
Right?
Jeffrey Jones 17:59
Yeah.
Michelle Hippler 17:59
No not- not for the same property, but it was like you have to buy a much more expensive property now. Because, well, for one it's probably because, you know, the people in Greece can't afford, you know, affordability, housing affordability, is a problem worldwide now. So, those are the sorts of changes that can happen. And there's been a lot of visa changes elsewhere in Europe also recently.
Jeffrey Jones 18:22
Yeah, it keeps changing. We had some just, I don't even want to get into it. There were a lot of details that changed, that actually, in some cases, improved our situation, but, but it's not always that way, but you need to be updated about what's happening. Because unfortunately, I'm going to bring up the word politics- it has gotten political- some of these visa issues and foreigner issues and tourism issues.
Michelle Hippler 18:45
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 18:45
They're all tied together. And, you know, so it's being manipulated a little bit.
Michelle Hippler 18:50
Yeah. Well, and also the countries that were desperate for people with money to come and, you know, live there and spend it there, they've been overrun. Like Portugal has been popular since 2016 I mean, it was, it was popular, but, I mean, it's really exploded in popularity since then. Since, I would say, the pandemic.
I actually went over and stayed there the minute the pandemic, you know, travel restrictions were lifted in Europe. I went and I stayed in Portugal, ready to actually pull the lever and to, like, apply for the permit. I had everything in place. And it was actually my first time there. Like, I didn't do pre-trip, you know, I was just ready to get out. Basically, that was my mindset at the time. And it was like, once I got there, it was like, you know, it was lovely. It was- it was amazing, but I kept thinking: "do I really want to live here" like- it, you know? And just that whole process was also like something that I've talked to Jeffrey about extensively. That you can have- everything can look good on paper. Everything could sound great on the Facebook groups, right? And in YouTube videos.
Jeffrey Jones 20:00
Oh yeah.
Michelle Hippler 20:00
-but it's like, until you get there and like, really feel it and really think "okay, it's gonna be like this for like, the rest of the year." Like, there won't be- this isn't this isn't a vacation. This isn't just an extended digital nomad stay. This is gonna be me dealing with the Portuguese language, you know, all the time, right? And I ultimately didn't pull the trigger. Other things happened, and I returned to the States and kind of regrouped. And so that stuff happens. And that's kind of-
Jeffrey Jones 20:36
That's great that you got on the ground. Sorry, go ahead.
Michelle Hippler 20:38
Yeah, yeah, right? I didn't do it sight unseen. A lot of pandemic people did like do sight-unseen purchases and and moves.
Jeffrey Jones 20:47
Countries are interesting. And I was just discussing with someone earlier that there- it's a lot like people. Like you never forget how someone made you feel. Like countries- you don't have to agree with everything. You don't have to love the language or plan to learn all of it. You don't have to, you know, choose to eat some weird food that you don't like or what. You just have to feel good about it.
Michelle Hippler 21:05
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 21:06
Do I feel good being here? They make me feel good. Do I feel good walking?
Michelle Hippler 21:09
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 21:09
I feel good taking the transit.
Michelle Hippler 21:10
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 21:11
I feel good, you know, getting groceries. Do I- you know, and it, you think you know how things are going to line up. It's not really that. It's something, it's a feeling, at least, that's how I operate.
Michelle Hippler 21:21
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 21:22
Yeah. So it's interesting. So it's so important, like, you went to Portugal to spend time there. I like to laugh, everybody-you know, we deal with- we help people think about different countries. I have so many people tell me, if I just had a $20 bill, 'shouldn't- shouldn't I just move to Portugal?
Michelle Hippler 21:37
After you tell them you're going to Spain, they're like: "well, have you considered Portugal?"
Jeffrey Jones 21:41
Oh, I hate that one. "Did you know about Portugal?" No, I've never heard of that. Can you tell me something about Portugal? Yes. I mean, you know, it's a lovely country.
Michelle Hippler 21:50
Right.
Jeffrey Jones 21:50
We just chose not to move. It is lovely, but no. I mean, you know, you pick a place for this reason or that reason, or-
Michelle Hippler 21:56
Right.
Jeffrey Jones 21:57
Or yeah. And you know it means something that your cousin Bobby told you you should move to Portugal. Maybe he's smart, but, you know, also, also look at some other sources besides cousin Bobby.
Michelle Hippler 22:09
Right.
Jeffrey Jones 22:11
So, anyway, Portugal has had great marketing. I must say.
Michelle Hippler 22:14
It has, and there's a lot of people moving there, and then they get on YouTube, and they start their own channel and-and then they talk about how great it is, and they get their affiliate marketing links, and they do the whole thing.
Jeffrey Jones 22:26
Oh I know.
Michelle Hippler 22:26
And it becomes a side-gig. But it's like, you know, not everybody is suited for that. I definitely want to return to Portugal, and I want- and I want to spend more time on the Central Coast. That was the area that I was really looking at, but it would be more for long-stay. Just because it was like- I don't know. It didn't resonate. It didn't resonate with me.
Jeffrey Jones 22:48
That's a great word.
Michelle Hippler 22:48
Right? And, and frankly, that's happening with the Netherlands too, for very different reasons. Very different reasons. But those are the things- and ultimately, I don't know. It's like, because I keep saying I'm getting older now, and I have been a nomad all my life, right? But I'm kind of wanting to do more stable things, but at the same time, I'm not ready to make a choice. I feel like-
Jeffrey Jones 23:11
I think you're, you're a dream case for slow travel. I mean, you're a slow traveler. You love it.
Michelle Hippler 23:16
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 23:16
And that's okay.
Michelle Hippler 23:17
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 23:17
You don't commit to a place. For those who doesn't know- those who don't know what slow travel is, that's, you know, you spend a month or two in each place, and you keep going and just enjoy travel. And that's okay.
Michelle Hippler 23:27
Yeah, and for me right now, I've made the statement that I don't want to go anywhere for less than three months. Like, that's how tired I'm getting of travel of moving. It's not the travel.
Jeffrey Jones 23:38
That's a long time for you.
Michelle Hippler 23:39
Yeah. And it's like- it's enough time for you to really settle in and get a feel for a place, you know, too. And so we just did that with the Netherlands. Like, I've been to the Netherlands a few times already, but in vacation as a tourist, because it was too expensive for one. Amsterdam, right? It's the only place I went. Well, this time, you know, we stayed closer to the Hague, and I don't know it's like, a lot of things went wrong with that trip. So, that really colored my perceptions of the country I know wrongly so, I kept saying I'm blaming the Netherlands, when it really was and it was more like the landlord. But at the end of the day-
Jeffrey Jones 24:19
Yeah, it's funny huh?
Michelle Hippler 24:20
Yeah. At the end of the day, it did feel like it wasn't the right energy, at least where I was. So, now that I have a permit, you know, I can go back, and I can stay as long as I want to, and I can move around and maybe find a better area that I want to stay in than where I was. It was oddly polluted too. I mean, it was very close to the beach. Very close to, like, the biggest track of woods that I think the Netherlands has, because they, like, they chopped them down a long time ago, I think. Or they just never had them I don't know, but it for whatever reason in that spot they always had really poor air quality, and I think it's because of the cars it was-
Jeffrey Jones 24:59
Well, that's a thing, yeah.
Michelle Hippler 25:00
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 25:01
Some people say, like Valencia- and Valencia's had a lot of there's been some influencers that are, you know, have been saying Valencia is the greatest city in the world. And they won some award Valencia, Spain, yeah. And, you know, we went there in the summer. Bad choice of timing. It was an oven. A very beautiful oven. Oh, that's right, you visit.
Michelle Hippler 25:19
I was there last year. On my birthday-
Jeffrey Jones 25:21
Yeah. That's right, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Hippler 25:23
it was so hot and there was no air conditioning in this apartment that I stayed one night and the next day, because my brain was so affected from the heat- and the humidity is even worse than the heat.
Jeffrey Jones 25:34
It is very humid there.
Michelle Hippler 25:36
I wasn't thinking straight, and I had- I got an air conditioned Airbnb, like, near the old town. I think I paid $1,100 for, like, four days, seven days, something crazy,
Jeffrey Jones 25:47
But it was beautiful
Michelle Hippler 25:48
But if my brain were working, I would not have done.
Jeffrey Jones 25:53
But, you know, but, but then again. So Valencia, we want to go back in the winter or the fall or spring, because it is a beautiful, small city.
Michelle Hippler 26:00
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 26:00
It's a little provincial, but it's lovely. And it could be very nice if you go at the right time. And you know, when all the locals, I didn't realize all the locals were out of town when it's hot, like that, but-
Michelle Hippler 26:10
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 26:10
But it- it has a great art scene. You know, it's just the kind of thing like, give it a chance at the right time
Michelle Hippler 26:16
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 26:17
And know when you need to leave.
Michelle Hippler 26:18
Right. Right. Have a plan to spend the winter up north- not the winter summer.
Jeffrey Jones 26:25
Exactly, yeah. And yeah, there are people who do that that have different homes. Michelle, should we share a little bit about our I know we've been referencing our experiences, but should we share just- get a nutshell of what we've gone through?
Michelle Hippler 26:36
Yeah, let's do it from beginning to end, the journey. So, for you, Jeffrey, what was the inciting trigger originally, for your dream to move to Europe? Because it always was Europe for you.
Jeffrey Jones 26:50
Absolutely, yeah. So, there was- well, I did love Latin America at one point, and I spent a lot of time. I love Mexico. There's a little town, Xalapa, Mexico. Just love that city. There's some places in Latin America, but what I would see happen in Latin America- encourage anyone, if you love it, to try to go live there. But what would happen in Latin America is there suddenly would be gangs.
Michelle Hippler 27:09
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 27:10
Like it even happened to some famous influencers recently in South America, but suddenly there's gang presence. Or, you know, and I it's, it's tragic. Why does that happen?
Michelle Hippler 27:19
Yeah, and well look what happened with- with Ecuador recently, right?
Jeffrey Jones 27:23
Absolutely.
Michelle Hippler 27:24
Remember the Cuenca, the Cuenca influencers have left. They have left, and they had spent two or three years extolling the virtues of Ecuador, and then suddenly things change. Was it an election? Was it an election, or something happened?
Jeffrey Jones 27:38
Probably somebody corrupted let gang activity in there.
Michelle Hippler 27:41
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 27:41
Apparently, it overflowed from Columbia. I don't know. I really don't understand, so I shouldn't say it.
Michelle Hippler 27:46
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 27:46
But yeah, but yeah, and it's tragic. And, you know, those influencers they put- they they have some really nice, useful videos on-
Michelle Hippler 27:53
Yes.
Jeffrey Jones 27:54
Maybe it- maybe the blessing of that is they went to Europe and have given us some nice videos about Europe.
Michelle Hippler 27:59
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 27:59
They try really hard, and they have some good content. That was terrible. They really enjoyed Ecuador.
Michelle Hippler 28:04
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 28:05
But yeah. That's what happens in Latin America. So we, we took a couple- we've always loved Italy, and we took a trip to Lake Como and I was like, "gosh, what a beautiful place." And I started researching that. And we were like, you know, it'd be great to live in Italy. So that's where it started. And we started researching that, and got mired in red tape. And like it was- and it just I mean, you know some people can handle that, but I realized we're going to need attorneys. We're going to need to attorney up to get this done, and it's going to, I don't know how long it's going to take, and buying a home seemed complicated, and even a five year old home, whatever those are. And so, you know, we began to research other countries, and we were looking at France, we were looking at Portugal.
But you know, I'd always loved Spain, and I actually tried to move- Barcelona is a favorite city- and I had tried to move to Barcelona 20 years back, and the economy changed and didn't happen. So I already had some familiarity with it. So we made some visits, and started. As we were researching Spain, that's very friendly for, you know, visa policy from Portugal. It was contagious. Like they they sort of started copying some of that in Spain and set up their own program. And then we realized, hey, we could really do this. Now, this is over years, right? But it was really a couple years ago that we realized this is going to be possible with this, this digital nomad visa, with the contract work I have. COVID was- I don't want to say it's a blessing, that's the wrong word, but- COVID pushed me out into a contract job that gave me flexibility to move to Europe. To, you know, work from Europe.
So, so, that's what happened. So we, you know, about a year ago, worked with our wonderful attorneys at Balcells Group in Barcelona. That's that wasn't a paid plug that- they just they, they've earned it. They helped us very neatly get this process done. It's just, I have to say, it wasn't difficult. They steered all the paperwork. It was difficult, and all of the you know, things we had to submit, and a lot of communications. And we started in the US from our sofa in LA on the video with them early in the morning, and, you know, having meetings and exchanging paperwork. And then, you know, earlier this year, we were on- on the ground and finished up the process there. And now have our little card, our visa residency card for Spain. So, we exited Spain in the European residence line, which was very surreal. But as we left the country.
Michelle Hippler 30:20
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm going to be able to do that. I get to do that the next time I got my card.
Jeffrey Jones 30:25
Yeah. So what about your story?
Michelle Hippler 30:27
Well, like I said earlier, it was 2016 when I really got serious. Because, one, I was an empty nester, then too. I had launched my daughter and had a real- I quit my job, like, with no, like, no backup, and then that you got me a job. Actually, you got me that job. So, I had some money to kind of just figure out things. And so I went off and I did a nomad thing for a while. I actually went to California and got to spend some time there, which I'd never been able to live there before. And just loved the East Bay Area. Oh, my God, I fell in love with it. But while I was there, I was kind of looking for something. And a friend who had just moved- well, I guess he'd been there a few years. He was in Vietnam. He was in Ho Chi Minh city offered- he had an extra bedroom. He's like, come and stay for free, and I'll show you around. And so I did that.
And being really open, like I- I'm not against Southeast Asia. I've never been to Vietnam. I had been to Japan, and I loved Japan. I always wanted to go there, maybe spend a long time there, but traveled around Southeast Asia and like, you know, for you know, reasons like the heat and humidity is really hard. But also the hyper-capitalism and the degradation the- of the environment, like, through that hyper-capitalism in- in particular, in Vietnam. And then just the sexpat community, like, just so totally turned me off, because I was like a 50 year old woman, and all the men, white men my age, that might have been dating material, all had 18 year old Vietnamese girls like.
Jeffrey Jones 32:03
That's wild.
Michelle Hippler 32:04
It was wild. It was totally wild. I don't know how much has changed, but it was very intense, like in that time period that I went, which is like 2017 I believe. So, Southeast Asia is off because I also didn't trust the food. You know, the chemical use to get the food to market was just really horrific. And there's a lot of cancer happening in Vietnam as a result of that too. I did go to Thailand. Thailand, I think, you know, I think, you know, the beaches were awesome. I just, but I just can't imagine being there year round, like or, you know, even doing slow travel there for very long, just because it's just not my it's just not my cup of tea.
So, when I was- in 2016 when I first started looking, and I was really researching. The reason I started researching Portugal is because I had looked at South America. It is cheaper, and I was, like, unevenly employed at that time, so had, like, more insecurities, and didn't want to go where I'd have to pay a lot of money for rent and stuff. So, I looked down there, and I hung out and lurked on Facebook pages, and I got really turned off with Mexico. Just because of the influx of people that were going down there, and then what they talked about, and it's like- just the way they talked. Like, "oh, the line- the traffic to get to Costco was terrible. What's going on with the infrastructure here?" And I'm like, okay, it just felt so neo- Neo-colonialism, like all these people have not able to make it in America, taking their money and going to cheaper places, and then kind of taking over and ruining it for the locals. And it's like, I just really didn't want to be part of that problem. And also-
Jeffrey Jones 33:44
Well, and to be fair there, there are Europeans that think that about us in Europe.
Michelle Hippler 33:48
Yes, exactly in southern Europe, I'm sure, yes. And we are, like, even digital nomads. I'm a part of the problem no matter what, because of the housing thing, you know?
Jeffrey Jones 33:58
Yes.
Michelle Hippler 33:58
So, but down there, it just was the attitude that I just could hear in these Facebook groups was just like, my god, this is just like, these are the people I don't want to be my neighbors in America gone down there, but I know that's kind of mean, but-
Jeffrey Jones 34:13
Yeah, I think there's different, different kinds of people in different places in Latin America.
Michelle Hippler 34:18
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 34:18
Like, Costa Rican, Costa Rican expats are really, yeah-
Michelle Hippler 34:22
But Mexico is, like, the murder capital the world. Like there is so much bloodshed all the time, and I just couldn't handle it. Even, like, I know that they tried to keep it away from the tourist stuff, but it's still, like, my god.
Jeffrey Jones 34:33
It is- it is a lovely, lovely culture. It's just that, yeah, you're right.
Michelle Hippler 34:37
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 34:37
Yeah, the crime is tough.
Michelle Hippler 34:39
So I eliminated South America just because also heat and humidity. I cannot handle it. I couldn't handle it in Vietnam. I can't handle it in Valencia. I can't handle it anywhere anymore. I grew up in the Midwest.
Jeffrey Jones 34:52
Not a heat person.
Michelle Hippler 34:52
I grew up in the Midwest, but I have lived in Seattle most of my adult life, so. So, when I went to Portugal, there was a lot of things like about it that really, you know, inspired me. And so, did a lot of lurking, like I said, it was all that kind of just, you know, taking notes, doing research. But I did decide that I did want to be in Europe, because it is, it is a western world. It is like a first world. I I do agree that Southern Europe, in Greece, you know, and Portugal and Spain, it is bringing in those American bucks really does make a difference. It does elevate your lifestyle beyond what the locals are living and so there, I just don't know that I can get around that. It didn't seem the same inequality as in South America, though, you know.
So, I focused on Portugal, because they had the new digital nomad visa, and it was easy. It was going to be the easiest and fastest way and cheapest way to get an EU passport. And that was really my goal. That's why I'm kind of country agnostic. Seriously, because my goal is to get the passport. My goal is to be able to move freely between the states or the countries while I'm there, and then ultimately, maybe move to a place that I really want to be, right? So my goal was really to find the fastest, cheapest, and easiest path to a passport. And at that time, in 20, when was that 19, I got there, like, right after the borders opened up. So maybe it was into 2020 then yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 36:26
And all these visas offer a pass, a path now.
Michelle Hippler 36:29
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 36:30
That I know of.
Michelle Hippler 36:31
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 36:31
It's just different timelines, right? But they all, if you stick around and don't rob banks and just like that, you know you're, you're gonna get a permanent residency.
Michelle Hippler 36:38
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 36:38
And eventually a passport. But you were also looking at the timelines.
Michelle Hippler 36:42
Yeah, and, you know, the Portugal thing too was really interesting. Because what happened, and this is something that we can get into about going over as a an employee versus self-employed, and even the problems of being self-employed, depending on who your contract is with. I was fully employed. I was an employee of a company, a fortune 500 company, that was fully remote even before the pandemic, and I was planning to work from there. And I made the mistake of telling my boss that I was going to do that. That it was not necessary for this to be done like, I would still be doing it like, right? I don't know why. I was kind of stupid of telling them that I was going, and then they freaked out at the last minute, and at the last minute because it was gonna- I was gonna go in February of 2019. Was that February 2020? When did the pandemic- March 2020 was the pandemic start? Right? When things closed down. I was going in March of, February 2020, I had my ticket and everything, and I had to pivot like at the last minute, and at the last minute.
At that same time, my- one of my best friends from high school died, and so I was like, okay, screw it. I'm not going to Portugal. I'm just going to go over back to Illinois and go to my friend's funeral, and by the time I came back to Seattle after that, that's when everything shut down. I think I had COVID. I think I got COVID on that trip because I was sicker than a dog in March, and that was just coming out that Snohomish County had the first case, which was like north of where I was. But so I was planning to go to Portugal before the pandemic, and then I ended up going after and I, and I actually, like, luckily, got laid off from that job in the pandemic and had a free, paid ride through the pandemic because of unemployment. So.
Jeffrey Jones 38:35
Yeah, there ya go. yeah.
Michelle Hippler 38:37
So I was ready to go-
Jeffrey Jones 38:38
There's the mixed blessing of a layoff or the pandemic.
Michelle Hippler 38:40
It was. It was the best thing that could have happened in my in my life, because it was a horrible job. It was really, really stressful and horrible.
Jeffrey Jones 38:48
Yes, I remember that.
Michelle Hippler 38:48
So, yeah. Anyway, that's what happened. And then Portugal was just like, I didn't want to do it. And other things happened that made me come back with my daughter. And then, and then kind of regrouping, and then spent the last year- see that would have been 2023, I took, I quit another job and took a sabbatical, and went and traveled all through Western Europe. And I did little trainings. I did, like, a month on a visa, doing an eco village design course. I was just really kind of searching for what I really wanted to do in this next period of my life, and to also see different countries and see if there was maybe a place I might want to stay. And through that process, met a woman who was doing the permit for the Netherlands, and she told me about a program that I had never heard about. It's not even on the Netherlands website, but it is truly the fastest, and easiest, and cheapest way to get a passport.
So, that's why I've gone with the Netherlands, not because I love the Netherlands. I don't even know it that well. But you know, as a nomad, it really doesn't matter to me in the long run. Like, at least right now. Like I said, I have conflicting, conflicting visions of the future. I do want to be settled. I do want to have one home-base somewhere, but I probably will still do slow travel, even when I have a home-base. Because- and I didn't want to stay, like I said, if I'm going to get in the Netherlands, I'm not going to spend the winters there. I'm not going to do that cold and rain. I spent 20 years in Seattle, you know.
Jeffrey Jones 40:22
And to our to our listeners, you know, when you get one of these visas, there are requirements for how long you need to stay in each country. So, that's a detail to look at.
Michelle Hippler 40:31
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 40:31
I know Portugal was kind of relaxed about that, but, but they're not all the same.
Michelle Hippler 40:35
Right.
Jeffrey Jones 40:36
That's a key detail. And if you want to be out of the country, you know, there's different, different facets of that, but yeah, definitely something to look at.
Michelle Hippler 40:43
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 40:43
All right, you've got a great story.
Michelle Hippler 40:45
And it's not over, because I have this permit, and I got kind of really turned off during my time in the Netherlands, just got back from, And so I'm really, really just like, I'm ready to walk away. That's the other thing about me too, is like, if it doesn't feel right, I'm okay walking away. I don't have that much money in the game right now. I did hire someone to help me who's a Dutch native, and I did apply, but it was, like, really minimal. It's like, I think 300 and I paid 350 euros for his help on, you know, translation and setting appointments and, like, almost 400 euro for the application fee, and then that's it. Like I have to go back. I had, I had to leave before I could complete the whole process. They got me the card, though, they gave the card first.
Now I have six months to complete the process which just entails having to set up a business there. I have to set up a business. I had a- have to have 4500 euro in a bank at all times. Like it can't go below that. And then I have to sign up with the Chamber of Commerce, and I got to sign up with the municipality. I have an address, a registered address that I do have with this, this, this guy. He's a friend of a friend, and so that's kind of where I'm at. It's like, well, housing is hard to find there. Like, do I have to keep using this registered address of this guy to keep it or do I go and rent a place that's affordable and in a place that I like, that's so that's where I'm at. And I have until like, February, basically the end of February, to decide, and I'm like, keeping open. Like, I may just say I don't want to go now. Figure something else out.
Jeffrey Jones 42:35
It's funny how they gave you the card so early, because we- we finished the process, and then we were waiting for the card, and somehow couldn't get an appointment. This is a funny thing that happens in Spain. Somehow we could see the card was there, but we couldn't get the appointment because the system was down or something. So-
Michelle Hippler 42:48
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 42:48
Finally, our attorney said, go over there and tell them you're going to go in and get your card, stand there until they let you in. So that's all we did.
Michelle Hippler 42:54
Oh, nice.
Jeffrey Jones 42:54
And we got it but, but we spent probably $4,000 all-in between the attorneys and all the translators and all these things we had to do. Now, they handled stuff for us. We didn't do, you know, we sent them paperwork, and they did a lot of There was even one point where there was a glitch in the way the data was entered, and they told us, oh, it was going to be three or four more weeks because of that glitch. The attorneys, these wonderful attorneys, they did something called their friend in Madrid, and the next day we had the appointment. So that's, you know, if you get a good attorney, you get what you're paying for, like, they're going to smooth it out, but you're very heroic. Like-
Michelle Hippler 43:29
Well, no, I mean, there was a glitch with me too. But the- I just want to also point out that you had to, like, rebook your plane a few times. Which costs money every time you do that, because you couldn't get the appointment, right?
Jeffrey Jones 43:42
Oh, yeah, that's, that's right. We spent an extra, there's more thousands of dollars there, but yeah, we spent extra money because we couldn't get this appointment or that.
Michelle Hippler 43:50
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 43:51
Yeah. We didn't realize there was one more. Yeah, it was fingerprinting, and we just didn't realize some details in the process. You know, you don't know what you don't know, right? If you're also not told that, then that's a problem.
Michelle Hippler 44:01
Well, what happened- what happened- what's weird with what happened with me was that my friend had just gone through the process, like, a few months earlier than me. And it took her two months that- from beginning to end it took her two months, and the last thing she got was the card. It was kind of- they flipped the process between her and me. Like it used to be that you did the chamber and the municipality and the business thing you got that all had to, that had to be set up before you could get the card. And for me, it was just like, get the card, and there was even a point where, like, you have to bring your birth certificate to come in and have this appointment before we can say yes or no on the card.
Well, I go into that appointment with my birth certificate, which took me $200 at the end of the day to FedEx it for my sister's, right? But, um, I get to that appointment and they're like, "oh well, you've already been approved. You don't need to do this appointment. You should have gotten the letter in the mail saying that you're-" Well. I was out of the country. I was in Slovenia for a trip, and so it was like- no one's even seen my birth certificate. And I don't even think they're going to ask, because I have the card. They printed it and gave it to me before I left.
Well, because I had already planned to leave, and there was some delay in getting my appointments to get that card. I didn't have enough time, because there were no appointments for like weeks and weeks, to go to the municipality. So, I couldn't have if I had been able to do all of that while I was there before I had to come back, I'd be golden. But now it was like, it got delayed. And so- and it was because there was no appointments. No slot openings, like, for weeks and weeks. So, that's where my- my thing is, but it was weird that it was flipped from my friend who had just completed her process, like, two months earlier.
Jeffrey Jones 45:59
It's, it's a, it turns into a funny chess game of, you know, you have to get this done this fast, but, oh, there's no appointments. You're like, Well, how do I do it?
Michelle Hippler 46:06
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 46:06
Like, you know, you need a magician or something. Sometimes it's tricky, but, but hopefully it works out for you.
Michelle Hippler 46:13
Yeah. Well, we'll see.
Jeffrey Jones 46:15
We're still, we're still working on it.
Michelle Hippler 46:17
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 46:17
Yeah. Well, those are our stories. So, you know, besides this podcast, we do, we have some different things in the works with living abroad Academy. You'll find them all on our website at living abroad academy.com
Michelle Hippler 46:28
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Jeffrey Jones 46:34
You can also submit questions and ideas for future podcasts on the website.
Michelle Hippler 46:38
We appreciate you being a part of our community. Thanks again for joining us.
Jeffrey Jones
Bye.
Michelle Hippler
Bye.