The Expat Experience | France and Spain: A Tale of Two Countries

Meet an American couple, Lisa and Ian, who found an exciting new life in France, then decided to spend their winter months in Spain. Learn what inspired their new expat life in Europe including the highs, lows, and what they’ve found to be the most useful pieces of advice.

Learn more about how The Living Abroad Academy informs and accelerates moves to Europe for Americans: www.livingabroadacademy.com

Chapters

• 0:09 Intro
• 0:49 Meet our guests this week, expats Ian and Lisa
• 1:10 Ian’s expat story
• 2:44 Lisa and Ian meet, and her journey joining him abroad
• 15:38 Language skills and navigating two non-English speaking countries
• 17:51 Attitudes, expectations, and their effect on culture shock
• 20:49 Tax implications of splitting time between two countries
• 24:05 The process of buying their home in France
• 28:39 Ian’s motivation to seek legal aid instead of a DIY approach to immigration
• 30:05 Finding and buying their home in Spain
• 34:28 Ian and Lisa’s experiences with French healthcare
• 36:36 Healthcare costs in France vs. the US
• 38:16 How easy is it to see elective specialists?
• 38:55 Lisa and Ian’s end of life plans abroad
• 41:19 The difficulties of setting down roots when travel is your priority
• 44:10 The importance of experiencing a place's most extreme weather during the selection process
• 46:07 Keep doing what you love by knowing what a city offers and what it doesn’t
• 49:23 Adjusting to the slower pace of life in Europe
• 51:00 Outro

Transcript

Jeffrey Jones  0:09  

Welcome to the Experts and Expats Podcast. I'm Jeffrey Jones

Michelle Hippler  0:13  

and I'm Michelle Hippler. We're co-founders of the Living Abroad Academy. We focus on the information Americans need to plan a move to Europe on a faster timeline than the one we experienced.

Jeffrey Jones  0:23  

We cover all the best visas to explore, along with financial and social considerations that will help you determine what country-

Michelle Hippler  0:29  

or countries-

Jeffrey Jones

right or countries might be the right fit for you and your circumstances.

Michelle Hippler 

Absolutely, a country might look great on paper, but not turn out to be what you expected. So we talk to expats about their experiences and experts about their particular expertise in their country,

Jeffrey Jones  0:46  

All with a goal to get you as much information as possible to make an informed decision. Today, we have two American expats with us, Lisa Valenzuela and Ian stock. Hi, Lisa and Ian. Thanks for joining us.

Ian  0:57  

Hey, Jeffrey.

Michelle Hippler  0:58  

Hey there.

Ian  0:59  

Hey, Michelle.

Jeffrey Jones  1:00  

They're married and both retired professionals living in rural France and the south of Spain, splitting their time between the locations. they love exploring Europe and the UK. And take it from me, Lisa is often posting beautiful photos from their travels in her social media. They have children living in the US, in California, Connecticut and then in Europe, in London, Athens and Nantes. quite a spread of cities. So personal detail, I know Lisa from Northern California for many years back. She shared many encouraging words as I was researching my move to Europe- last couple of years. It's definitely been helpful to have that kind of positive feedback, and it's really great to see someone else you know making and enjoying a move like you both are doing. So you two, we've got some questions about your path to Europe, so if you don't mind, we'll just jump right in.

Lisa  

Great.

Ian  

We're here

Michelle Hippler  1:10  

Awesome. So tell us more specifically what your current situation is. You've got two countries, you're both retired. Just tell us a little bit about how you're handling all that.

Lisa  1:47  

Well, Ian, you want to start out?

Ian  1:54  

Shall I start?

Lisa  1:56  

Yeah.

Ian  1:57  

Okay, so we started out. I started out here in Brittany after retiring, it was a choice between South Devon and Northwest France. So, I'm obviously- I was born and raised in the UK. I decided I wanted to be here and bought a place within- it was two visits. It took me two visits to find a suitable place and put the deposit on, you know, and all that stuff. I had an advantage in that I had worked in Paris for 10 years during my career.

Michelle Hippler  2:27  

Ah, Okay,

Ian  2:28  

So, I've gone through French bureaucracy, which is quite challenging at times. And I'd learned the language which is equally challenging at times.

Michelle Hippler  2:37  

Right.

Ian  2:38  

So, when I got here, settling in was not the challenge that it would be for a newbie.

Michelle Hippler  2:44  

Right.

Ian  2:44  

You know, Lisa, then- I sort of imported her.

Lisa  2:51  

Yeah. We have kind of an interesting relationship story, in that Ian and I knew each other in Santa Cruz, California. So, Ian is a naturalized American citizen and lived in the States for what 40 years or so-

Ian  3:05  

35

Lisa  3:06  

Yeah, and he is still a semi-retired attorney. So we met when we were both working. We went-met at a coworking location and-

Ian  3:17  

Next Space in Santa Cruz.

Jeffrey Jones  3:21  

Know that place.

Lisa  3:22  

So- and we were friends then, and then I- then I left that job and didn't really see much of Ian after that. And then you moved.

Ian  3:31  

Right I moved over here, and then you called me, looking for-

Lisa  3:34  

Yeah, yeah. So, I was looking for some legal advice. My marriage had ended, and I was looking for advice for a local attorney. So I called Ian in France, and then we started talking like every day for hours. So we started, you know, it kind of an online relationship, but we really knew each- we had known each other. So, we, you know, we- we talked for several months, right?

Ian  4:00  

Yeah. And then- then we met up. We somehow managed to get to both in New York at the same time.

Lisa  4:05  

Yeah. So, I went to go- I have a daughter who lives in Connecticut and- but she was in well she- she was in Jersey City at the time. So I was visiting her, and Ian came over, and we- we met up in New York, and then- so, we kind of started a real relationship. And we had about, we did about eight months of-

Ian  4:27  

back and forth

Lisa  4:28  

long distance. Long distance, which was really crazy and expensive anyway. So, we were doing this back and forth, and then decided in November of that year that I would come over and- and live here for a while. So, you know that- that happened, and I came, you know, had my first Christmas here, which was just lovely. We met quite a number of expats. So most, I don't know any Americans here, but lots of British expats. And actually, my, you know, my best girlfriend is Scottish. So we do have a little group of expats that we we meet almost weekly,

Ian  5:11  

Yeah.

Lisa  5:11  

At a little pub. had a lovely Christmas. And so then decided, you know, I was on the three month,

Ian  5:19  

Yeah, we went through a pandemic crisis. You know,

Michelle Hippler  5:23  

Right.

Jeffrey Jones  5:23  

We know that.

Ian  5:24  

Everybody did, right? And so we were running out of- she had 90 days, you know, in the EU without, she had an appointment in San Francisco on March the 16th, 2020 to extend that 90 days. March the 12th, President Trump duly announced that Europeans were no longer welcome in the US. Nobody knew what that meant. We were American, and it's like, what- can we go back?

Lisa  5:55  

It's actually at the airport.

Ian  5:56  

We were at the airport when we found this.

Jeffrey Jones  5:58  

Course.

Lisa  5:58  

Yeah. Air France, when people- longest queue that you could imagine. People crying. When we got to the front of the line They said, well, the only thing we can guarantee is that this flight will take off,

Ian  6:11  

To San Fransisco.

Lisa  6:12  

But we can't- Wwe can't guarantee that-

Ian  6:14  

In three weeks we'll be able to fly you back. We have return tickets in three weeks

Lisa  6:18  

Yeah. So-

Jeffrey Jones  6:20  

Crazy.

Lisa  6:20  

No, I, you know, I was just it- literally frozen. I didn't know what to do because I knew I couldn't stay in France any longer. I mean, there's some really severe repercussions if you out stay your visa, especially in modern times with, you know, computerized everything. And Ian, you know, didn't have a house any longer- a place to stay. So he's like, “Well, I can't go.” And I'm like, “I can't stay.”

Jeffrey Jones  6:44  

Oh my goodness.

Lisa  6:45  

Yeah. So-

Ian  6:46  

How do we resolve it? How do we resolve it? So we're standing at the check-in counter, and I said, “Well, we can always get married.”

Michelle Hippler  6:53  

Ah, pandemic marriage, right?

Ian  6:59  

She said, was that a proposal?

Jeffrey Jones  7:02  

Who has the movie rights to this?

Ian

Yeah.

Lisa  7:06  

So fortunately, Ian, you know, already having lived in, you know, France for a decade during his life, and- and also being an attorney, knew people and and he was able to contact immigration attorney who helped, kind of grease the wheels. And it was-

Ian  7:21  

And the French bureaucrats, to be fair to them, were very decent about it

Jeffrey Jones  7:26  

Nice.

Michelle Hippler  7:35  

Right.

Ian  7:27  

And they knew it. They said, we get- we understand. They knew that- they saw the date of the flight. They knew the date of the announcement from President Trump. So, you know it was, it was fairly treated. I gotta say.

Lisa  7:38  

Yeah. So despite it being the pandemic, and everything screeching to a halt, which really, if anybody had to deal with any bureaucracies during the pandemic, it was, it was just a nightmare. But my stay was extended until August of 2020, and I flew back to California, and then Ian came a few weeks later and-

Ian  7:58  

Got married.

Lisa  7:59  

We got- had a wedding and in Lake Tahoe, which not only was it the middle of a pandemic, but also the fires were going,

Michelle Hippler  8:08  

Oh, wow, yeah.

Lisa  8:11  

Yeah, but-

Ian  8:12  

We were allowed to have 10 people total, including ourselves, at the wedding, and we were the only ones who were allowed to be unmasked.

Jeffrey Jones  8:19  

Wow.

Lisa  8:24  

Yeah, so then we came back to France, and I know people had some really awful times during the pandemic, but we were very fortunate in that we got to travel all around France during the lockdown, and it was quite lovely to have the country just be full of French people and not have, not to have huge lines and stuff. How long did it take before I actually got-

Ian  8:49  

Legit?

Lisa  8:50  

Yeah, it wasn't too long after.

Ian  8:52  

It wasn't too long. I think it was about eight months after the wedding.

Lisa  8:56  

Yeah, so-

Ian  8:57  

I think about May? Yeah, there you go.

Lisa  9:00  

And it felt very good. That was one of my happiest moments when I got my residence card.

Jeffrey Jones  9:05  

Sure is, isn't it? I remember that too. Like, look at what a beautiful piece of plastic. Like-

Lisa  9:09  

Yup, yeah because like I am you know, I'm, I'm legit now. So, you know that's- that's great.

Jeffrey Jones  9:15  

It's a great thing.

Lisa  9:17  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  9:18  

very cool.

Ian  9:19  

One of the reasons that we get along so well is we do like to travel, and that's been our high spot of retiring to Europe, because, you know, as a kid, we went on occasional family holidays from England, you know maybe three, I think in total, two in Italy, one in Belgium. But since we've been living here. We're able to explore all over.

Lisa  9:42  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  9:43  

Right.

Jeffrey Jones  9:45  

It's beautiful with those cheap airlines and trains, and you can do this stuff on the weekends. You don't have to have one or two weeks a year where you-

Ian  9:57  

That's right.

Lisa  9:44  

The lovely thing about about being on the continent is that travel is- like people think that we, you know, are wealthy or something, and we really, really travel very inexpensively, but everything's so close that we’re able to go so many places, literally on the cheap. 

Ian

It's just level.

Lisa

Right we just got back. We spent five days in Rome, and it was just this little bargain because it's November, so you know, and I- it was still Rome, was still fairly crowded. I couldn't imagine what it must be like in the, you know, the middle of summer, when it's all tourists. But, yeah, it was just great.

Michelle Hippler  10:33  

My sister was just in Rome, actually, just getting back now.

Lisa  10:37  

No, I'll tell you. I mean, I love the food in France, but there's-

Ian  10:41  

Oh. It was so good.

Lisa  10:42  

The best food I've ever had in my life is in Italy. It's-

Michelle Hippler  10:47  

Oh yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  10:48  

Don't tell the French that.

Lisa  10:51  

Yeah. There's a you know, the French like to duke out about a few things. Wine is one of them. Yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  10:59  

Absolutely, yeah.

Ian  11:01  

What else? Oh, yeah. So the weather, though, has proved an issue for Lisa. You know, I was raised in it, and I don't like it as much as I did as a kid. You know, I was used to bicycling to school in the rain, it's what you do when you’re English.

Jeffrey Jones  11:19  

Yeah.

Ian  11:20  

I don't do it anymore. I don't bicycle in the rain anymore. And-

Lisa  11:24  

Yeah, that that's something that I would really advise people who are thinking about making a big move to do is, is make sure that you go and visit wherever you're looking to settle, not in the peak-

Ian  11:38  

Time of year.

Lisa  11:38  

Time of year, because it's completely different going someplace in the lovely warm weather when the sun doesn't set until almost 11 o'clock at night, versus being someplace when it might be, you know, 40 degrees day,- you know, or or lower, like when it snowed today.

Ian  12:00  

Yeah, we- in this case, we handled it by the Spain thing. The Spain thing, you know, it was manageable, cost-wise, right? And it's just brilliant. I mean, the cottage we're sitting in, it's a granite cottage. It's about 1000 square feet, two bedrooms, and the flat down there is more like 500 square feet, maybe 550 with a big terrace, but it's big enough. You know, we get to live. We've got our own little spaces. Lisa's is a gym. Mine is a little office.

Lisa  12:32  

And that's something too that- that I think a lot of Americans, especially people on the West Coast, that deal with the high housing prices is- especially in France and out in the country like we are. It is so affordable. Houses are so affordable.

Ian  12:50  

Yeah.

Lisa  12:51  

And for us, we have this adorable little granite cottage, but most of the French prefer the newer, more like prefab kind of houses.

Ian  13:02  

They do.

Lisa  13:02  

And so these old houses can be gotten for a song. And you know, we've- we've done some remodeling.

Ian  13:09  

A fair bit.

Lisa  13:09  

I got to have my kitchen remodel, so that was lovely. And we've worked on our- our yard. But it's- when we tell our friends and my family was just here this- my parents were just here this summer when they hear what the prices are. I mean, you literally can't get a condo in the middle of nowhere in the States where you can get a lovely house and property. So that's definitely a huge, huge plus for-

Ian  13:35  

Cause we're all on fixed incomes, right? I mean-

Lisa  13:37  

Well we are.

Ian  13:37  

I've got people- I got lucky. I got a couple of clients that keep bugging me. But apart from that, it's a fixed income, and so you don't want to set yourself up to be too tightly squeezed.

Michelle Hippler  13:50  

Right.

Ian  13:51  

By your living expenses. Our living expenses, relative to our pensions, are under 20%. under 20 that's everything but food.

Michelle Hippler  14:01  

Wow. So are you renting out your Spain place when you're in France and vice versa?

Lisa  14:07  

No. No. We just- they're just empty. When we're- we're gone. I don't, I don't want to get into-

Ian  14:13  

We've got lots of personal stuff in each place. And we sort of figured out-

Lisa  14:18  

And that's the other piece about things being very affordable. you can't rent things out for for much, you know. So it's not worth the, you know, the risk and and especially in France, you know, there, there are a lot of laws that are in place to protect-

Ian  14:37  

Tenants.

Jeffrey Jones  14:38  

That's good.

Lisa  14:39  

And employees as another piece of that. But if you rent out your home to, for example, a family, and they have children and something happens and they can't pay your rent, well, you can't-

Ian  14:54  

Necessariliy kick them out.

Lisa  14:55  

Yeah, they're pretty much in your in your house and-

Michelle Hippler  14:58  

Wow.

Lisa  14:59  

Yeah.

Ian  14:59  

There are exceptions, but it's always a risk. It's always a risk.

Lisa  15:03  

Yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  15:03  

Well, you know, in Spain, people move in and they're not paying you. They just move in.

Lisa  15:06  

Yeah.

Ian  15:06  

There you go.

Jeffrey Jones  15:09  

And they have rights.

Ian  15:10  

The mayor of Barcelona encourages them.

Lisa  15:12  

No.

Jeffrey Jones  15:13  

Apparently, yes,

Lisa  15:14  

Yeah, yeah. So what- What trivial amount we might be able to get by renting out our place is- isn't worth the risk. Plus, as Ian said, you know, we are- It's not like we have anything of really, any value, but we do have-

Ian  15:29  

Personal-

Lisa  15:29  

Personal stuff. So yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  15:31  

Makes sense.

Lisa  15:32  

Although we do say, you know, for our- for and family, anybody can come and stay,

Ian  15:37  

Yeah, that's right.

Michelle Hippler  15:38  

Right. So you had a soft entry. You basically had a soft entry because Ian was already there. Ian had already been there for 10 years, actually, in-country earlier. But what was your experience, Lisa, in terms of the language, did you know French when you went there?

Lisa  15:54  

No. And I am very ashamed to say that I don't work on my French nearly enough, and that is because Ian's fluent, and we're kind of joined at the hip. So, so he-

Ian  16:10  

I do talking.

Lisa  16:11  

Yeah, and I actually,- I mean, I've spent a lot of time on Duolingo, I understand-

Jeffrey Jones  16:17  

Yeah, yeah.

Lisa  16:18  

My, you know, my biggest problem is embarrassment. So-

Ian  16:24  

That's it. I'm never embarrassed. So I try new languages. I sound stupid. It doesn't matter to me.

Michelle Hippler  16:29  

Yeah, yeah.

Ian  16:31  

And it does.

Lisa  16:32  

But the flip side of that is that I, you know, I have a couple of years of Spanish. And growing up in California, you're- you're surrounded by Spanish all the time. So when we're in Spain-

Ian  16:42  

She does more than I do.

Lisa  16:43  

And it's amazing how much of the Spanish has come back. And I'm not embarrassed to to use my Spanish in Spain, but for whatever reason, I have a harder time here.

Michelle Hippler  16:55  

Right.

Lisa  16:56  

So.

Jeffrey Jones  16:56  

You're in a smaller town I noticed in France people are, you know, maybe in a larger city, people are a little more impatient, but in smaller places people are very helpful.

Ian  17:04  

They are. Especially Parisians are awful about it.

Jeffrey Jones  17:07  

I didn't want to say it, but yeah.

Lisa  17:09  

I- I have never got the- the vibe of the rude Parisian myself. I don't-

Ian  17:13  

Really?

Lisa  17:15  

Yeah.

Ian  17:16  

Maybe it's got something to do with the way you look.

Lisa  17:17  

Oh honey, don't be silly. But you're right about the soft landing, and it's I really was able to come in very, very easily because of Ian. So I think I do have- a lot of my friends now have been messaging me and asking about potentially moving and asking questions. And I think it's a I know it's a lot harder when you're just coming blindly into another country.

Michelle Hippler  17:51  

Yeah, and I think there's a difference even too with coming in blindly, but with a partner, as opposed to coming in blindly as a solo person. And that's, I think the difference between Jeffrey and I is I'm solo, he's got a partner. It's always easier when you have a partner to rely on. Have either- I mean, Ian, it seems like maybe you probably didn't. You've already been through it. But Lisa, have you had any type of culture shock from having gone from California to-

Lisa  18:16  

No.

Michelle Hippler  18:17  

Rural France?

Lisa  18:19  

Not at all.

Ian  18:19  

Good question, because I don't think she has, yeah.

Lisa  18:22  

No, it was- it was completely smooth. I was so ready. But I was also very, very ready to make a drastic move because of just situation in my personal life where it was a clean break, literally a new life.

Michelle Hippler  18:38  

Right.

Lisa  18:38  

And it's been just joyous.

Ian  18:41  

It's an attitude thing, though you got, I mean, you must know this, Michelle, you got to approach it with a sort of, I'm interested what's going on, you know.

Michelle Hippler  18:49  

Yeah.

Ian  18:50  

iI you do that, it's great.

Michelle Hippler  18:52  

Yeah,.

Ian  18:53  

I'm sure it's good for your brain. I mean, we all get worried in middle age about things deteriorating,

Michelle Hippler  18:58  

Right.

Ian  18:59  

You kind of find your way in a new culture, faced with all kinds of work.

Michelle Hippler  19:03  

Right, right.

Ian  19:05  

It keeps it active and healthy. I mean, but Lisa's attitude was really positive ever since she got here. So that, that, that that helps. you gotta have a positive attitude.

Jeffrey Jones  19:14  

That's for sure.

Lisa  19:15  

Yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  19:16  

Be flexible.

Ian  19:17  

Be flexible, there you go.

Lisa  19:19  

And that's the other thing I, you know, I would caution people who are- are frustrated with, you know, whatever, and want to leave the States that coming to Europe is- is not a panacea. And wanting to leave it to escape, people need to have the right attitude. I think, because the, I think the culture shock could be very, very real, thinking that suddenly I'm going to be in you know-

Ian  19:45  

Bliss.

Lisa  19:46  

Yeah.

Ian  19:46  

If you're leaving the US because of of, you know, political reasons, I hate to say it that way, but-

Ian 

Yeah.

Lisa

There's political issues everywhere.

Jeffrey Jones  19:55  

Absolutely.

Ian  19:56  

There are political issues here that we find like in England that I find, like, you know. I mean, you're not going to avoid- in the Netherlands. Look at Amsterdam.

Michelle Hippler  20:04  

Yeah. I know exactly, yeah, yeah.

Lisa  20:08  

So, right. So there, you know, every place has its challenges, but I've never had any second thoughts about- about being here. It's just been a marvelous experience so far.

Michelle Hippler  20:18  

Right. it just occurred to me that your honeymoon phase was your literal honeymoon too.

Ian  20:25  

We're still in it. I hate to say we’re-

Michelle Hippler  20:27  

Right. RIght.

Lisa  20:28  

It's been nice.

Michelle Hippler  20:29  

But you did get fed up, I mean, with the winters, right? So what was that process of deciding to go to Spain? And how did you come to that and and then, how is it technically, like, legally, like, taxes and all of that. How are you splitting and tracking all of that?

Lisa  20:44  

Well, because we're French residents and we're members of the EU, we don't have to worry about how long we stay, you know, in various places, so that that isn't an issue. So we are taxed as non-residents,

Ian  21:01  

Yeah, only in France are we effectively taxed.

Lisa  21:03  

Yeah.

Ian  21:04  

But.

Michelle Hippler  21:04  

Okay.

Ian  21:05  

We haven't yet spent six months or more in Spain in any year.

Michelle Hippler  21:11  

Okay.

Ian  21:11  

We're kinda keeping it that way because the difficulty will be if we do- and we might decide because it's a lot nicer down there, frankly.

Lisa  21:21  

Yeah.

Ian  21:21  

The difficulty is we'll have to start redoing taxes and social charges and the like. There's a treaty, for example, between the US and France on social charges, on what you pay to Social Security or its equivalent in France. I know it. I'm familiar with it. I've worked with it. I kind of know which way is up. If we go Spain, I won't know which way is up. I'll have to learn it all.

Lisa  21:49  

Well-

Ian  21:49  

Or hire lawyers, which gets to be expensive. That's the expensive stuff. You know?

Lisa  21:54  

Another thing that I would add to anybody who is considering moving to France in particular, if they have blended families, that France has very non-negotiable inheritance rules. where you can't, you, you can't make a will and say, I want-

Ian  22:16  

California law.

Lisa  22:17  

Right. It-, it's all French law, and it's, and it absolutely, unless something very much changes, which it hasn't in 300 years. It's very difficult. And that actually is one of the reasons why we are kind of considering becoming Spanish residents rather than French, because it's- it's very complicated.

Jeffrey Jones  22:38  

I'm surprised how- how clear a lot of things are. I'd heard about all the red tape, and I have great attorneys, so that really helps.

Ian  22:45  

Yes, it does.

Jeffrey Jones  22:45  

But, but, but I'm- I think things function pretty well.

Ian  22:50  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  22:50  

What is the rule for France? How long do you have to be in the country to be still considered the resident. A year? is it- Do you have, like, a rule?

Ian  22:58  

Over six months, basically. Everywhere is over six months, basically. If you want a simple- so you know, if, if you want to be in- a Spanish resident, you'd have to take steps, but you'd have to be there over six months a year.

Michelle Hippler  23:11  

Okay.

Ian  23:11  

Then you'd have to go to France and say: “Look, we're no longer resident here. You can't tax us.”

Michelle Hippler  23:16  

Right, right, right. Okay.

Ian  23:18  

This is now our second home.

Lisa  23:20  

Right. Which is another kind of hairy thing, because that's one of the things that they are trying to change in the French tax system, is to-

Ian  23:31  

Taxation of second home.

Lisa  23:32  

Yeah, to penalize second homes, non-citizen second homes.

Ian  23:38  

So that's sort of always in the air. You know, you have to get used to that, just as used to it in the United States, whereas whatever state you're in had its own balls in the air. Here other balls, and they're complex. They are-

Jeffrey Jones  23:51  

I mean, you kind of get it. I mean, I know in Spain there's Americans that, "oh, I own five homes because I can," you bought five homes? like, because they're renting them out. I'm like, you wonder why people are tense? That might be why?

Lisa  24:04  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  24:05  

So you own both of your places. What was that process of buying in France and then in Spain? How was that comparable to the US? Or?

Ian  24:14  

You go through, you know, lawyers of different types. In France, it has to be done through a notary, as in Spain. a notary is not a notary public, that you'd say in the US, it's a real estate attorney, basically a special protected profession. And what happens when professions are protected? They get dumb. We've had bad stories here of- of expats who've lost out in in.

Lisa  24:40  

Oh-

Ian  24:41  

Real estate transactions.

Lisa  24:42  

Not- not as personally, but- but you do have to be careful about- we had some friends who had been here for, oh, about a decade, and they were having some health issues and decided to move back to the UK, and had an offer on their home here in France and already bought a new place in the UK, and then the deal fell through here. and they lost a ton of money in the UK as well. So you need to be careful about timing issues about, you know, what you're doing.

Ian  25:15  

But it's common sense stuff. It's, it's, you know you should know that. You should know not to put money into a new house...

Lisa  25:21  

But when we bought the little place in Spain, it was very, very easy. We, you know, we looked at a number of places. We're actually in a little golf resort.

Jeffrey Jones  25:32  

Oh nice.

Ian  25:32  

Neither of us play.

Lisa  25:35  

But it's lovely. We looked at a number of places we, you know, we chose one in a weekend, put an offer in. It was accepted, and it was-

Ian  25:43  

Boom, yeah.

Lisa  25:44  

About 45 days later-

Ian  25:46  

Yeah, it was October 30. It closed.

Lisa  25:48  

Yeah, so was September. And then, then we, you know, the deal closed at the end of October, and then that was it. So that was really easy,

Ian  25:58  

Yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  25:58  

Did you find a buyer's agent there? And did you have, you know, it's interesting. In Spain, they don't really have inspections, and they don't have buyers agents. And you're like: "wait, you don't have either of those? Okay, what do I do?" So I just- was it similar in France? The process to the US, or?

Ian  26:11  

I didn't have an agent, actually at all. Notaires offices sometimes have sort of bulletin boards outside, behind glass, and that's how I found this place. It wasn't listed with any agent. And now, yeah, you just- what happened with my place was that there was a delay because it- one of those sellers was a minor in a French overseas territory.

Jeffrey Jones  26:34  

What? Okay.

Lisa  26:38  

Sounds like an inheritance. That was an inheritance thing.

Ian  26:41  

It was an inheritance thing. I had to get it off an inheritance. And-

Lisa  26:44  

Okay.

Ian  26:44  

So that had to go through a, you know, a court to- a probate court to protect the minor, and then it had to come up. I think I basically ended up waiting two months for the closing, which was, but friends in Paris loaned me a flat. so I was able to- but it was still annoying.

Lisa  27:00  

Yeah, that's another thing tha-t it has been really easy. Ian, having lived here for a decade and still having friends. in particular, some friends that live in Paris, that have a studio that they-

Ian  27:14  

Oh, yeah, yeah. We just- we spent a week in Paris at the Olympics, right?

Michelle Hippler  27:19  

Oh, nice.

Ian  27:20  

With Lisa's parents, you know, 83 with Lisa's parents.

Jeffrey Jones  27:25  

Wow.

Ian  27:25  

And we were able to, you know- normally we borrow, just borrow this flat with, you know, we gave them a hundred euro a night for the four of-

Lisa  27:36  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  27:37  

Nice.

Jeffrey Jones  27:38  

That's great. Nice.

Lisa  27:39  

So, you know, that's one of the things too. There's so many opportunities that we have available to us here that just wouldn't be the same if I was still in the States. And the number one thing, really, is the travel. But even having been able to go to the Olympics this summer, which, you know, was not inexpensive, but it would have been absolutely-

Ian  28:01  

Yeah, very difficult From Santa Cruz, very difficult. Los Angeles, Watch out.

Michelle Hippler  28:08  

Right.

[MUSIC PLAYS]

Jeffrey Jones  28:13  

Hey, there. Just a reminder that you can learn more about moving to Europe at livingabroadacademy.com

Michelle Hippler  28:19  

Sign up for our newsletter and stay up to date on our latest podcast, events, and more.

Jeffrey Jones  28:24  

You can also submit questions and ideas for future podcasts on the website.

Michelle Hippler  28:28  

We appreciate you being a part of our community. Thanks again for joining us.

Jeffrey Jones  28:33  

And now back to the show.

[MUSIC PLAYS]

Jeffrey Jones

So one thing I wanted to ask, it sounds like Ian, that you helped you sort of had to do it yourself. Like, did you handle the immigration process yourself? Or did you guys have support?

Ian  28:48  

No, I- we handled it through- in France we found a lawyer.

Jeffrey Jones  28:53  

Okay.

Ian  28:54  

A good immigration lawyer, whose name I'd give anybody.

Lisa  28:57  

Yeah. Now, was it your- You were already a resident. You didn't have to do anything special, did you you had to-

Ian  29:03  

I still engaged a lawyer because I- Brexit, see. so I was a resident as a British citizen.

Michelle Hippler  29:11  

Right.

Ian  29:12  

So I've got dual, I've got British and American. So that was changing when I got here, and so I did retain a lawyer just to be safe. You know why-

Michelle Hippler  29:20  

Right.

Ian  29:20  

Yes. It wasn't a lot. It was like 1000 euro or something, and he just sort of helped me walk through it and- but yes, it really is a lot easier if you have experience. You know people, when they research that they shouldn't just research where they want to go. They really- based on environment or- or facilities or sights. They also really have to look at the law around it.

Michelle Hippler  29:48  

Yeah, yeah. it's easier also, if you know the language, and if you have training as a lawyer yourself, right?

Ian  29:57  

And even- I had 10 years practicing in Paris, right?

Jeffrey Jones  30:00  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  30:00  

Right.

Ian  30:00  

So- it was corporate law, but still you get notions of the other stuff.

Michelle Hippler  30:05  

Right. right.

Jeffrey Jones  30:05  

That's very rightful. So you do a lot. Were there any other resources you used, and maybe with Spain, right? How did you decide? Was it Murcia? how did you decide where you want it to be, not only the country, but where in the country?

Lisa  30:16  

It's really goofy. Here's another goofy story. So Ian is a train buff, right? He loves trains. So everything- a train spotter, yada yada. So when he retired, he bought a toy train. but, I'm sorry, a model train. And he had it in his office, on this big board and stuff, and he had envisioned that it was going to be this great thing he's going to play with, right and and is going to have, like, mountains and little people and stuff. And he just never-

Ian  30:47  

It was no, here's why. It wasn't just that I lost interest. I was expecting in the digital era for it to work digitally well, and it didn't. It didn't. For some reason, the manufacturers just haven't caught up with Silicon Valley.It just didn't allow you to do what I wanted to do.

Lisa  31:05  

Well so anyway, he got frustrated. Lovely man, doesn't have a whole lot of patience. And he got really frustrated with his toy train and decided he was going to sell it. And-

Ian  31:15  

This was our research.

Lisa  31:16  

Yeah, yeah. So- so he found a- another Brit, a buyer who lives in Normandy, and wanted to buy Ian's train. So they met kind of halfway, a really nice couple. And in conversation, Ian was telling him that, you know, I was there-

Ian  31:34  

We needed to find some warmth.

Lisa  31:35  

That I was American, and my only issue was the fact that I, you know, I couldn't deal with the cold. And he and his wife had just, you know, they had bought this place. At this golf resort he said, "Oh, here, you guys should go down there and check this place out. And here's the name of the agent who helped us." And so anyway, that's how we ended up getting our place in Spain. Is through Ian's train set.

Jeffrey Jones  32:00  

Okay, wow.

Michelle Hippler  32:01  

Wow. So, no exploratory trips, no-

Lisa  32:05  

No we didn't even- no, absolutely had no plans on, like, ever doing this and, and we had-

Ian  32:12  

Lisa has a cousin in Madrid, so we were aware that.

Lisa  32:15  

Cousin that lives in Spain- yeah, yeah. But we had, you know, we came into just a little bit of money, and we're trying to look at, you know, figuring out whether to invest it or what to do and, and because we like to travel so much, we knew we'd just fritter it away if we, you know-

Ian  32:29  

That's the trouble, we spend it.

Lisa  32:32  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  32:33  

Right, right.

Lisa  32:35  

So then, you know, we had this little bit of money, and David, is this- This fellow's name. He said, "Oh, you should just go down there." We decided to take a little trip to check it out. And then we ended up-

Ian  32:46  

We made the offer at the end of that week.

Lisa  32:48  

Yeah, yeah. So we drove down. We drove down to southern Spain that- we stopped in Barcelona, yes, rode our bikes along the beach, spent a couple of days, you know, and went down there, put the offer on the place. And you know, the rest is history. And each time that we've gone, we've loved it more. I mean, I-

Ian  33:06  

Like the weather down there today was 74 here it was 38.

Jeffrey Jones  33:10  

That's great. We're going down there to explore in March. And you know that area, murcia, Cartagena, it's amazing properties down there. It looks and yet over farther, over on the cost of El Sol, you know, Malaga, Marbella is beautiful.

Lisa  33:24  

Oh, we were just, we were just in Malaga.

Jeffrey Jones  33:26  

Really? Did you like it? Yeah.

Lisa  33:27  

Yeah. It was just fantastic. So that's when we first got our little place. The first couple of times we spent most of our time in-

Ian  33:35  

Local areas.

Lisa  33:36  

No, IKEA and Leroy Merlin and all those places like, you know, just trying to fix it up and- and make it our own. And it's the last-

Ian  33:46  

El Corte Inglés too.

Lisa  33:47  

Yeah, that's a lovely little surprise, but since the last- especially the last time we went down there, we don't have to do anything anymore. so we can just-

Ian  33:57  

It's set up.

Lisa  33:58  

Enjoy ourselves. And so we've been taking a lot of just little day trips what, you know, like, we're really- I feel like, on my mom and dad, like, "oh, let's go on a little Sunday drive" it, you know, we go hour, an hour and a half out and go explore little towns and castles and stuff like that. So, so it's-

Ian  34:16  

We like the castles, it's very there's a lot.

Michelle Hippler  34:21  

Very nice.

Jeffrey Jones  34:22  

Those Moorish castles, they last.

Ian  34:24  

Oh, man,

Jeffrey Jones  34:25  

they're all over the landscape. Yeah.

Lisa  34:28  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  34:28  

So, you both seem very healthy. Have you had to use the healthcare system in France or Spain yet? Do you know what's that like.

Ian  34:38  

In France we have, yeah. We're both- we're both participants in so in the medical insurance here.

Lisa  34:43  

It's great. It's just fantastic. That's another real, real bonus about being here. In fact, I was talking to my daughter, and I was telling her something about about the health care, and I couldn't believe that we had to, you know, we paid, I don't know, 18 euro, for something I'd gone to and I and I was telling her, I just, I feel really guilty. I mean, I'm, you know, here, I-

Ian  35:08  

Don't feel guilty.

Michelle Hippler  35:12  

Yeah.

Lisa  35:12  

Because I said, I just, I, you know, I haven't put anything into the system. I really, this should really go to the French citizens, and how can they do this? And my daughter said "it's because it's a civilized country."

Jeffrey Jones  35:25  

Exactly civilization, but yeah I hate to say it.

Michelle Hippler  35:28  

Yeah, right.

Lisa  35:31  

But it's- Yeah, but it's we. We've been, we've been very-

Ian  35:35  

That was cute.

Lisa  35:35  

Yeah, we've been, but we've been very-

Ian  35:37  

An example. An example, I had a crown fall out in Rome. So I went to the dentist here on return, and she put a temporary, you know, glued it back in, sort of thing with- called it a temporary. I have to get an appointment in January to get it replaced. 23 Euro.

Michelle Hippler  35:56  

Wow,.

Lisa  35:57  

Yeah. And, and, you know, I, and we've had, you know, we've had little, minor things happen, and our little local GP is five minutes away, and we get, we can get an appointment.

Ian  36:10  

They're pretty good.

Lisa  36:10  

Within a day or a couple of weeks.

Michelle Hippler  36:12  

Wow.

Jeffrey Jones  36:13  

Specialists-

Lisa  36:14  

Yeah, yeah, specialists are more difficult. But knock wood, we haven't had to do that, but, but we do have friends who have needed more extensive health care and just completely have raved about how quickly and inexpensively and thoroughly they've been taken care of, even with some-

Ian  36:33  

Cancer sufferers are really well taken.

Lisa  36:36  

Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Hippler  36:36  

What- do you pay a monthly fee for that?

Lisa  36:39  

No.

Ian  36:39  

Well, yes and no what we what we do pay is-

Lisa  36:43  

Not supplemental. We don't have supplemental.

Ian  36:44  

Yeah, well, what we do pay is out of our- my French, I have a French pension because I worked here 10 years.

Michelle Hippler  36:51  

Right.

Ian  36:52  

Out of that, they with- they withhold about 10% which is towards social charges. So I don't know how much of that is allocated to health, probably not much, but we do pay a little bit.

Michelle Hippler  37:04  

Okay.

Ian  37:04  

And we pay, you know, we pay how much taxes? Maybe 1500 a year, taxes, or something like that.

Michelle Hippler  37:11  

Okay, yeah, I've been hearing not great things about the Netherlands, like you can't get an appointment with a GP because there's not enough of them. So-

Jeffrey Jones  37:19  

Yeah, in Spain with insurance, it can take, especially the popular plans that are a little cheaper, it can take a few weeks to get an appointment. But I'm not using insurance. It's totally affordable without insurance, and I get an appointment in a few days. You know, it's quick, yeah.

Ian  37:35  

And they have reasonable prices too.

Jeffrey Jones  37:37  

Absolutely out of pocket is- are essentially what my co-pays were here with insurance that was quite expensive.

Ian  37:42  

Wow.

Lisa  37:43  

Yeah, I had- lot, you know, insurance was virtually.

Ian  37:48  

I was paying a thousand.

Lisa  37:49  

Virtually unaffordable. My last corporate position, my employer, paid 100% of my health plan and half for family, and I still paid $1,500 a month for that with, you know, huge deductibles. So, you know, you just, you prayed that nothing bad would- would happen to you. So here it's, it's, you know, we've been very lucky. And again, like I said-

Ian  38:16  

I need a dermatologist periodically, and that's been a problem, right? We can't find one out here, Paris to-twice, right?

Lisa  38:25  

Yeah, darn. We had to make a little trip to Paris.

Jeffrey Jones  38:28  

Oh, well.

Lisa  38:29  

Yeah. So again, I mean, the specialists are more difficult, and I think that they do have a hierarchy. If you've got something serious, then they'll move you up the ladder. But if you're just trying to get, you know, being a Californian and having been- spent way too much time in the sun, I'm used to going to the dermatologist once a year for them just to check-

Ian  38:55  

Burn stuff off.

Lisa  38:55  

And burn stuff off, and they do less of that here. So, you know, same thing with dentistry, you know, if you're- if you're an American, you're used to going twice a year and getting your teeth cleaned, and the dentist does, they don't do that here. You have to, and the dentist does everything. So there are no assistants or hygienists or whatever, and they look at you a little askew, and you're like, Well, should I come back in six months to get my teeth cleaned? They're like, "what for?"

Michelle Hippler  38:55  

Well it sounds like you have a very international family. So visiting them, visiting you, you visiting them is not an issue. You stay pretty connected. What about long-term, though? Are you planning to, like, stay there until the very end? You're all-in on France or Spain.

Ian  39:42  

We- you know, we've been talking about that actually. I mean, it all depends how we do. I would- if Lisa goes first, to be honest, I probably would not stay here unless I got kids around here. I got four sons, so I would somehow want to be near whichever of them has a grandchild.

Michelle Hippler  40:00  

Right, right.

Ian  40:02  

That's what I would want, and I think you feel somewhat similarly.

Lisa  40:06  

Yeah. Now my daughter, I have three granddaughters, and my daughter has, over the years, talked about moving abroad with the family. She's quite well traveled. She spent a year abroad in England back when a year was a full year, not a quarter or semester, and she's fluent in French, and has talked about coming, and if she and the kids came here, then for sure, I would stay. But if I were alone, unless I really got up to speed with the language, it would be really hard, but I might be okay with being in Spain.

Ian  40:44  

Yes.

Lisa  40:45  

That's the only-

Michelle Hippler  40:46  

Yeah, yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  40:47  

There's a lot of English speakers down there too. So-

Lisa  40:50  

well, I mean, I don't want to say this-

Jeffrey Jones  40:52  

Oh, but you speak Spanish.

Lisa  40:53  

Too many.

Jeffrey Jones  40:57  

I know what you mean.  

Lisa  40:57  

Well, that- that's one thing that we really- when we were in Malaga, it was so nice not to hear.. French. No I mean I love- I love the expats. But that's one thing about where we are in our in our golf resort, it's probably, I don't know-

Ian  41:16  

A lot of English golfers.

Lisa  41:17  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  41:19  

Well, what about in Brittany? Like, how integrated are you with the locals, besides your expat group? How integrated are you with the French?

Ian  41:27  

Not very.

Lisa  41:28  

Well, our neighbor.

Ian  41:29  

Our neighbor.

Lisa  41:30  

Yes,-is wonderful. He's been a great resource and friend, and he takes care of our place when we're- when we're gone. So that's really nice.

Ian  41:39  

That's sort of interesting, because one of the- I do think a downside of all our travel is that we're not in one place very long all the time. You know, we're, we're going to be here until January, so two months, then we're going to go down to Spain for two months. And that's about as far as we've planned. But you know, it's, you don't- the French here are very nice, but we haven't done anything to try to hang with them. What you do is join associations of your interests, right?

Lisa  41:41  

We tried though.

Ian  41:49  

We did. We tried medieval dance.

Lisa  42:10  

We did. We went. It was so cute because we live near-

Ian  42:17  

We're terrible dancers.

Lisa  42:18  

Well speak for yourself. We are close- we live next to the most adorable medieval town called Dinan. It's a walled city. It's just, I- I fell in love with this, this little town, and its cobblestone streets. It's just, it's like a picture book. It's really lovely.

Ian  42:37  

Extraordinary.

Lisa  42:38  

And we did go in- in the fall, they have an open house where they have associations, where you can, you know, join different clubs. And we actually were looking, I was looking for a track club. I'd been wanting to do Masters Track, and I thought maybe I could hook up with- with some runners, and it would also force me to, you know-

Ian  42:58  

Speak a little.

Lisa  42:58  

Speak a little, and-

Michelle Hippler  42:59  

Right.

Lisa  43:00  

Stuff. And we didn't find that but we got hooked into this medieval dance group, and it was really super fun.

Ian  43:08  

It was lots of fun. But then-

Lisa  43:10  

bBt then we, but then-

Ian  43:12  

We were traveling.

Lisa  43:12  

But then we-

Ian  43:13  

We missed, you know, sessions, and so we missed the steps they did, and we were trying to, you know, it's hard.

Lisa  43:19  

Yeah, yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  43:20  

If you've got a video of that. We'd love to see it. We won't post it online, but-

Lisa  43:27  

We went to a ball and were dressed in, you know-

Jeffrey Jones  43:30  

Okay, wow.

Michelle Hippler  43:31  

Wow.

Lisa  43:32  

So yeah, and I do- I miss that because, and it was lovely, because when we were in the dance class, the instructor spoke- his English was okay.

Ian  43:42  

Yeah, not bad.

Lisa  43:42  

But nobody else in the group spoke English. And so they really forced me to, you know, to speak. So I had to, like, pay attention and know what was right and left and up and down and stuff with the steps and and I'm- and I miss that. And that was, you know, that is as Ian said a downside about doing a lot of travel is that we, you know, had an interruption of what might have been a smoother integration.

Ian  44:08  

And then dropped it.

Lisa  44:09  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  44:09  

Nice.

Jeffrey Jones  44:10  

So, so earlier, you mentioned you wish you had visited in the winter in France, Lisa and you know, I guess there's always something right, and if you had the chance to do the move again, what things would you do differently? You know, to be helpful advice for other people, like, is there anything you would- and it sounds like things went smoothly, but is there anything that you wish you had done differently?

Lisa  44:27  

Yeah, I have to say that I had the easiest transition, because Ian really loves to take care of things and-

Ian  44:37  

And her, I like to take care of her.

Lisa  44:38  

I have to say that, you know, I went from doing everything in my life practically myself and having to organize everything and manage everything, and then suddenly Ian came along, and he's really, really good at that kind of stuff, and it was kind of hard at first to let go of some of the control stuff. But he really,- you just made it so easy.

Ian  45:04  

Yeah.

Lisa  45:04  

So and I knew, yeah, and he and I have always had a really strong connection, so it just felt right to be here. So, yeah, the weather, you know, I the weather bit did come as a shock to me and I made the comment about coming at different times of year more for other people's benefit, because even if I had been here and the weather had been like it is now, I still would have come and it wouldn't-

Jeffrey Jones  45:32  

Nice.

Lisa  45:33  

Yeah, it wasn't a game changer. It just would have been less shocking.

Jeffrey Jones  45:38  

And I would mention, if you're thinking of moving to Spain, go in August. Just go in August.

Lisa  45:43  

Yes.

Michelle Hippler  45:44  

Or July.

Jeffrey Jones  45:45  

Or Juiy. Make sure the AC goes up all the way.

Lisa  45:51  

Yeah. Now that's the difference between Ian and I too, is that I can tolerate the heat much better than he can. He gets really uncomfortable, and he can tolerate the cold better than me. So, yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  46:07  

So it doesn't sound like you've had that. And I will say that we had it in Spain, that moment we were like, did we make the right decision? We definitely had that maybe more than once. Had a couple of those moments. But it sounds like you guys have been, yeah,

Ian  46:18  

Yeah, because of my familiarity with the place. You know, not only had I worked in in Paris, but I'd spent school holidays and- in this area, so I knew it, you know, I knew Saint-Malo is where I knew I just love Saint-Malo.

Lisa  46:37  

Yeah, that reminds me the- So Ian, when he came here, you know, you wanted to be by Saint-Malo, right? So, which is right on the, you know, on the Atlantic, which is lovely. And coming from Santa Cruz, having a body of water nearby is really important. But the other piece is that, like the train line.

Ian  46:56  

We're two hours from Paris.

Lisa  46:57  

Yeah, on the train.

Michelle Hippler  46:59  

Wow.

Jeffrey Jones  47:00  

It's tough.

Ian  47:02  

We can go there and back in the day. We don't, but we could.

Lisa  47:05  

That's a bit much. But for me, one of my favorite things is- is live music. Is music of all sorts, and I grew up in the Bay Area, went to when I was a teenager. I went to 55 concerts in one year. So I'm all about live music. Santa Cruz had a great music scene. And being, you know, coming out here and kind of being in the boondocks, that was a bit of a culture shock.

Ian  47:34  

We go to London and Paris for concerts easily.

Michelle Hippler  47:37  

Nice.

Jeffrey Jones  47:38  

Nice.

Lisa  47:38  

You know, which is-

Ian  47:39  

Guess who we're seeing within two weeks in Paris? Sir Paul McCartney.

Jeffrey Jones  47:44  

Oh, wow.

Michelle Hippler  47:45  

Wow.

Jeffrey Jones  47:46  

Amazing.

Lisa  47:48  

So that's another thing too that I would- that I would advise people to think about what they're really passionate about, and make sure that they're in a location where their passions can be fed. at least, without too much expense or or travel. So for us, a couple of hours on the train is great. So, you know, we've gone to, actually, a lot of concerts. And you know, of course, Paris is Paris, so there's museums and food and everything. And so that's, you know, when we're- when we're starting to feel a little bit country bumpkin-ish, then we can, you know, jump on the train and be able to do that.

Ian  48:28  

Yeah, I think, I think that's a good point, actually, for people who do come to Europe, it- because of pricing, it's- and because of wanting to be more quiet in retirement. They- people tend to go into rural areas. You gotta be able to get out.

Michelle Hippler  48:46  

Right, right.

Jeffrey Jones  48:47  

Yeah, it's- it's important to know your priorities. It sounds like you thought about that. Yes.

Ian  48:51  

Yeah we, yeah, yeah, we, we did.

Lisa  48:54  

You know, I, as much as we travel, I am a bit of a homebody. So, you know, I don't mind staying in the house and having a book or going out-

Ian  49:02  

She's an introvert actually.

Lisa  49:04  

Or going out and I love having the garden and, you know, and doing that so that that's another nice thing about being in a rural place and having a bit of land is that you can go and, you know, get your hands dirty in the, you know, in the dirt. which for me is really-

Jeffrey Jones  49:22  

That's nice.

Lisa  49:23  

And the last thing that I will say that I found so wonderful about being in Europe is that people really do have so much better life balance here. Whether it's, you know, work is just something that you do. It isn't all consuming, especially Spain, when people literally shut down for three hours in the day, right?

Michelle Hippler  49:48  

Yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  49:48  

Yeah.

Lisa  49:49  

But it's, it's real. You know, at first we used to-

Ian  49:53  

Complain about the shops not being open.

Jeffrey Jones  49:56  

Yeah me too, yeah.

Lisa  49:57  

You know, being used to the whole 24/7 365 but now it's- it's so nice to see people have lives. I mean, why should- why should you go grocery shopping at 11:30 at night? Why can't you do it in the day or whatever? So I think that it especially if you've had a very busy and hectic career. It is a little bit shocking to the system to see how much slower pace things are, but-

Ian  50:24  

It's nice.

Lisa  50:25  

It's easy to ease into it.

Michelle Hippler  50:28  

Right?

Jeffrey Jones  50:29  

Yes, for sure.

Michelle Hippler  50:30  

Yeah. I think for Americans, it is like eye-opening.

Ian  50:35  

It is.

Michelle Hippler  50:35  

Like, why did we live like that? Why?

Jeffrey Jones  50:38  

Yeah, I mean, you can hit the pulse button. You don't have to be going all the time, and-

Ian  50:42  

Yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  50:43  

And it can make you feel a little- I feel a little awkward when I'm there sometimes that I'm so I gotta do something. I'm not productive today. Okay, I'm not working, but I could go to buy some new drapes, you know. And you're like, No, you know, just relax. That's okay.

Ian  50:54  

That's me. That's me. Jeffrey, I get twitchy. I want to do errands. I want to find things to do, you know.

Jeffrey Jones  50:59  

Productivity. Yeah. all right, Lisa and Ian-

Ian  51:04  

That was fun.

Jeffrey Jones  51:05  

Thank you so much. Oh-

Lisa  51:06  

Yeah, it was great.

Ian  51:07  

Thank you. It was fun.

Jeffrey Jones  51:08  

This has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. We hope to have you back sometime soon to hear the updates, right? Hear how your multi-country experience is going. Maybe you'll add a third country.

Lisa  51:20  

I don't know when we were in Rome, Ian's like, "well, maybe we should think about getting a place in Italy."

Jeffrey Jones  51:24  

Yes, there you go. We'll want to hear about that. So we wish you wonderful times ahead, a great new year ahead.

Michelle Hippler  51:30  

Yeah, thank you.

Lisa  51:30  

Thank you, you too.

Ian  51:33  

Happy holidays to both of you.

Michelle Hippler  51:34  

Yeah, happy holidays.