The Expat Experience: Retired Chicagoans in Central Italy

“If we can do this, anybody can do it.”

Join a lively conversation with John and Tara about their move to a small, charming village in Italy. They share the highs of enjoying the local community and beautiful landscape to the challenges, or as Tara calls them “adventures,” of language barriers and bureaucracy. 

Learn how this American couple has established a new European home that exceeds their expectations. 

Ever the operations manager, Tara would like to provide the following clarifications:

• Citizenship does provide a few more things than the ERV (residency, voting etc.)
• Health care cost here is based on what we make here AND in the US. This year they asked that our commercialista here calculate the correct rate.  That didn't happen last year.  

Learn more about how The Living Abroad Academy informs and accelerates moves to Europe for Americans: www.livingabroadacademy.com

Chapters

• 0:08 Intro
• 0:48 Meet John and Tara
• 4:28 Deciding on Italy
• 7:42 Selecting a Visa and Application Process
• 19:21 The First Few Months in the Italian Countryside
• 25:47 Getting Around with Limited Language Skills
• 31:28 Buying a Home: Considerations, Exchange Rates, and Money Movement
• 33:49 The Benefits of a Good Attitude (and a Partner)
• 37:11 Are John and Tara Planning to Stay in Italy Long-Term?
• 40:04 Experiences With the Healthcare System
• 45:22 Don’t Skimp on Research When Dealing with Italian and US Taxes
• 49:22 Outro

Transcript

00:00

Music.

Jeffrey Jones  00:06

Welcome to the Experts and Expats Podcast. I'm Jeffrey Jones,

Michelle Hippler  00:10

and I'm Michelle Hippler. We're co-founders of the Living Abroad Academy. We focus on the information Americans need to plan a move to Europe on a faster timeline than the one we experienced.

Jeffrey Jones  00:20

We cover all the best visas to explore, along with financial and social considerations that will help you determine what country-

Michelle Hippler  00:26

or countries

Jeffrey Jones  00:27

Right, or countries might be the right fit for you and your circumstances.

Michelle Hippler  00:31

Absolutely, a country might look great on paper, but not turn out to be what you expected. So we talk to expats about their experiences and experts about their particular expertise in their country.

Jeffrey Jones  00:43

All with a goal to get you as much information as possible to make an informed decision.

Michelle Hippler  00:48

So, today, we have John and Tara with us. John and Tara are a retired couple who moved from Chicago to a small village in De la Marca region of Italy. La Marca has a population of less than 1200 so that is a huge population density difference for you guys, huh? They've been married for 38 years, which is another huge accomplishment, frankly.

Jeffrey Jones  01:11

Congrats.

Michelle Hippler  01:11

And they are aunt and uncle and great aunt and uncle to several nieces and nephews, both blood related and otherwise. And they're also odd parents to a little six year old.

Jeffrey Jones  01:21

Before retiring, Tara worked in operations, both as an employee and consultant, and John was self-employed as an audio engineer and guitarist, which it sounds like you still do John as a hobby. So that's nice. Welcome to Experts and Expats, John and Tara.

Tara  01:34

Thank you.

John  01:35

Thank you.

Michelle Hippler  01:36

Yeah, welcome. So, I've only recently met John and Tara myself, but I was connected to them through my sister, who has known John for a very long time, through her college days at Illinois State University in Bloomington, or Normal. I can't remember which one. and John I'm thinking I may have actually met you, crossed paths with you during that time in the 80s, on one of my many weekends there. I'm not sure. I don't remember. It's been too long.

John  02:01

Quite possibly, it was a long time ago. I'm- I'm still working on what I had for lunch.

Michelle Hippler  02:08

So, we've briefly talked already about your experiences, but I just want to really dive in and kind of hear your story again for our audience. So, why don't you guys just start with telling us what is your current living circumstances there? You're retired, right? But John, you're still doing some audio and guitar stuff, but just tell us a little bit about your life there in Italy.

John  02:30

Yeah, we're retired. I am retired. I'm recording and playing guitar all the time, but I'm just kind of doing it for myself, and I'm not doing it for money. Or I don't have to scramble, because I've always recorded other people, and it's really nice to just wake up and do my own- 

Tara  02:46

It's been super cool because before we left, John made sure that all of his friends were set up to record remotely. So, he'll record things and spend all day in the studio. He'll send things over to his friends and say, “hey, put drum tracks on this,” or send it to the keyboard player and say, “hey, put keyboard tracks on this.” And then, you know, a day or two later, then he'll get more music in. And then just, he just keeps inventing and developing. I don't know, it's really cool.

Michelle Hippler  03:13

Very cool.

Jeffrey Jones  03:15

Are these people you're working with in Italy? Are they in other parts of the world?

John  03:18

Other parts of the world. Um, I have a few Italian friends here that are musicians.

Michelle Hippler  03:22

They're in Chicago area. John, is that it?

John  03:25

Yeah, yeah. yeah, mostly in Chicago.

Tara  03:27

Well, in the suburbs then, yeah. Some people from different states. And he even works with people here in Italy.

Michelle Hippler  03:33

Oh, okay, nice.

Jeffrey Jones  03:35

That's great. Remote work. Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  03:36

Very cool. So, how long have you lived in Italy then?

Tara  03:39

We have been here almost two years. It'll be two years in January. so we're still newbies.

Michelle Hippler  03:45

Great, right- Do you think the honeymoon period is over for you guys there?

Tara  03:50

You know-

John  03:51

I don't know. I-I  still say like, we'll start our day and I'm just like, I'm just gonna- let's just go home, because I still feel like I'm on vacation.

Michelle Hippler  04:00

Nice.

Jeffrey Jones  04:01

That's great, if that keeps going,

Tara  04:03

Yeah, but when you have to do all the bureaucracy and all the paperwork and, you know, all of that stuff, it does not feel like vacation. It feels like being in a foreign country attempting to find out how the system works. And I don't know, I find that part exciting, because it's part of the adventure. I think John likes to call those challenges sometimes.

John  04:24

I like to ignore them.

Michelle Hippler  04:26

Right.

Tara  04:27

That's why we're good partners.

Jeffrey Jones  04:28

That's a great attitude, Tara. you know, it's funny, I started an Italy process. I'm familiar- It was few years ago, I started researching it, and that's- this is a great moment to talk about what that process was like. and also what- what led you to Italy. I almost made that decision, too. Yeah.

Tara  04:41

I would say that it was a little crazy. My husband called me at work about 20 years ago and said, "Hey, wanna move to Italy." And I'm like, "Hey, we've never been there before." And he goes. "So?" I'm like, All right, let's figure it out, dude.

Jeffrey Jones  04:56

Brilliant.

Tara  04:56

And then I ignored him for about 10 years about it. and then about 10 years ago, he was like, "no, I'm really serious," like, with everything that's going on and my history and everything, you know, let's just go. And I said, “well, okay, there's a lot to figure it out.” So about 10 years ago, I started researching and started my, you know, beautiful Excel spreadsheets that John loves to ignore.

Michelle Hippler  05:22

That's the operations [person] versus the creative person, right?

Tara  05:26

Exactly. That's- hey, I wouldn't want to be married to me, so, I'm super grateful that he's here. And plus, he pushes me, you know, I'm not a risk taker. I'm Virgo, oldest daughter. I mean, we'd still be in our first apartment with shag carpeting and earwigs if it weren't for him. So, he comes up with the ideas, and, you know, like the entrepreneur dude that he is, and then I go forward and figure everything out. And then it was a lot, because there's nothing that's really black and white at all. I looked at blogs, we followed Facebook pages, which can be interesting and the truth and not the truth, followed some people on Instagram. I mean, but there were some interesting blogs- stuff about the US treaty and- but I had- we had no one to talk to about it, really. So, you just kind of piece together. I started putting steps together based off what other people were saying, or maybe videos they were doing. And then he started looking at houses, because we had to have a house, or we had to have a place to live.

Jeffrey Jones  06:27

And that was before the five the five euro home, right? Or the one euro home, or whatever it is. There's been a big, you know, media buzz about that.

Tara  06:33

Yeah, plus, we were not interested in those areas. And we also knew that attempting to find workers, or get the work done in the amount of time that they wanted it done. There was no possible way. We wanted to make it as easy as possible. And by the way, like, buying a house is so much easier than buying a car here, by far. Because they tell you you can't run a house over a person and kill them.

Michelle Hippler  07:01

Right.

Jeffrey Jones  07:03

I think you already mentioned some of the reasons why, were there- Were there any other reasons why you left the US?

John  07:08

Originally, just- I mean, my father was Italian, so that was kind of impetus to come here,

Tara  07:15

But he never talked about it. He never told John that he was Italian, like John found out in high school, but I think that it kind of-

Michelle Hippler  07:22

What?

Tara  07:23

just embedded in his brain.

John  07:25

Yeah, I have an Irish last name, and it's- it's a long story, but my father was- my father was in an orphanage in New York, and it was an Irish orphanage, so they changed his name.

Tara  07:36

John's real last name is Lombardi.

Jeffrey Jones  07:38

Geez.

Michelle Hippler  07:39

Oh my god, wow. So did you go in on the ancestry visa then, or-

Jeffrey Jones  07:40

Wow.

John  07:44

Nope.

Michelle Hippler  07:45

did you go another route?

Speaker 1  07:46

Also very complicated. I had some birth certificate problems and naturalization problems, so we came in as retired Elective Residents here, which is very tricky, and we ended up getting that with a lot of Tara's hard work,

Tara  08:02

Oh, and John's patience.

John  08:03

And I just signed some stuff.

Michelle Hippler  08:07

That's nice. That's so odd though, like, you actually had a parent. I mean, that's like, the easiest way to get a passport is if your parent is from some of these EU countries, but you didn't go that route.

Tara  08:18

Yeah, we couldn't go that route because he was in an orphanage with his other brothers and sisters, and his birth certificate does not exist at all. So we think when he was born or- and/or went into the orphanage with- which, by the way, burned down- that they lied about his name and they may have lied about his date of birth.

John  08:42

Yeah, my family was very strange coming up with stories about my- my father was born in 1907 and it was a long time ago, and a lot of family stuff with a lot of stories, because they're all dead. They've all the whole- his whole family,

Tara  08:56

And the orphanage burned down, so we don't have any records. And we were told he was born in New York. And we looked at every single birth certificate, you know, the year of, 10 years, 5 years before, 5 years after. We had two genealogists go after it to see, and they were like: we have never come across a dead end like this. So, again, we think someone lied about his name, someone lied about his birth date. He was even in the army, and they have nothing.

John  09:24

Well, one thing that we found was becoming an Elected Resident is a lot of paperwork, but it gets you almost everything citizenship does. It's really close.

Tara  09:34

It's just a lot harder.

John  09:35

It's just a lot harder. And I mean, you can do almost everything you can with a citizenship you can with Elect residents, except driver's license.

Tara  09:43

No, you can't. Well, let's-let's back up a little bit. You can't do everything with citizenship. You can't because we have residency. You can't vote. We can't vote.

John  09:52

Yeah, but as far as voting, but as far as living here-

Tara  09:56

Oh, yeah, with the health insurance and everything.

Jeffrey Jones  09:58

And that's called Elective Residency?

Tara  10:01

Yeah. So, with Elective Residency we had- I think there- how many consulates Chicago? How many consulates are there? Italian consulates?

John  10:08

Four?

Tara  10:09

And- he thinks four, but it's- you have specific things that you have to show, and they have to be exact. And it's very interesting, because if you read blogs or anything, different consulates can kind of make up different rules on different days.

Jeffrey Jones  10:26

Yes.

Tara  10:27

So, we got our Elective Residency in... December of 2022, and I've been watching blogs and Facebook pages, and I'm so surprised at how many people have been denied.

Michelle Hippler  10:41

Oh, really, do they say why? Is it just the consulate has weird rules, like, that are different? Or is it income? Or do you know?

Tara  10:51

Yeah, so some things that I have read- like my friends, actually got a letter back that told them why. Some people we met here, so she was able to fix it. But some of the blogs and- and other social media pages that I was reading, they just sent them their stuff back. No letter, no nothing. At all.

Michelle Hippler  11:11

Wow. I'm just wondering if that's going to be more and more common with some of these European countries, because there's gonna be such an influx of people, I think, since this election. People who have never considered living outside of the- of the US are now saying, I'm- I want to look into it, you know?

Jeffrey Jones  11:29

So it sounds like you did this on your own. Did you get an attorney, or did you have any side support?

Tara  11:34

So, in Chicago, we did not, but with our attorney that we had to purchase our house. She was willing to assist with our Elective Residency once you got here, because once we were approved- ,I'm looking at John, make sure I go through the steps. Once we were approved in Chicago for the Elective Residency, when you get here, you have eight days to file what they call the yellow packet. And you have to file-  you have to fill out this huge yellow packet. So, she did all of that for us, which was awesome, because it's in Italian, of course. And when you get here-

Michelle Hippler  12:13

Right.

Tara  12:13

because you only have eight days, you have to file the yellow packet with some coupon from the tabaccheria. Which, of course, we didn't know where anything was. And then you have to go to a specific post office that handles the yellow packets that can make the appointment at the Questura for you. So, she was amazing, because she filled everything out. We went in and we met her, and she's like, sign this, we're going to the post office. We went to the post office, which was in the middle of somewhere. Again, we probably would have not found, we know where it is now. And then filled everything out, and then we had to pay a fee, if I remember correctly. And she picked up the little coupon from the tabaccheria for us, and all the ladies in the post office knew her. Made our appointment, and then we were good to go. And then the- that was in January when we moved here, and the appointment at the Questura was in Macerata, which- the Questura? What's the definition of the Questura?

John  13:12

It's immigration.

Tara  13:13

And so you-you, then you have to go there. So, the appointment was in May, and it's at a specific time, and all the blogs and everything say: “do not go at the time of your appointment. Go two hours before the door opens, because it's a free-for-all.” There will be all these people standing there. You have to go in line and get the- I call it the deli tab, the little counter tab. And because we didn't know, I didn't know any Italian except I'm hungry and where's the bathroom-

Jeffrey Jones  13:48

Important.

Tara  13:49

And John was just like, “I don't know how comfortable I am yet.” We had a young guy that we met who spoke fluent Italian, and he went with us.

Michelle Hippler  13:58

Nice. So you arrived in what month, and you had that appointment when?

Tara  14:04

We arrived- in we arrived in January, and the Questura appointment was in May. And I've been reading again-

Michelle Hippler  14:11

Right, okay.

Tara  14:12

that in the bigger cities that a lot of these appointments are 9 to 10 months out. and you have to reapply for your- you get a permesso di soggiorno after that. You have to reapply every year, unless they're kind and give you a two year.

John  14:30

Which they gave us.

Michelle Hippler  14:32

Ah, Nice.

Jeffrey Jones  14:32

That's great, yeah.

Michelle Hippler  14:34

Did they know of your ancestry? Was that a part of like- or when you decided you couldn't get that, you know, did they know that you were Italian descent with your Irish name?

Speaker 1  14:44

No, no. They that, you know, unless you're- unless you're bucking for citizenship, they don't really care. And out of all the expats we know here, we know, you know, two- I think, two people of Italian descent. It's like not many people are Italian.

Michelle Hippler  15:00

Oh, Okay. So, you never considered a different country ever? It was always going to be Italy. Like, 20 years ago, you knew you wanted to be Italy.

John  15:09

Yeah, yeah, and then when we came here and started researching towns and stuff, it became pretty clear that that's where we- we like the quality of life here.

Tara  15:18

But he's so cute because we only came here three times, and then we moved on the fourth time.

Michelle Hippler  15:26

Wow.

Jeffrey Jones  15:28

So, so, in hindsight, I mean, it sounds like it went pretty smoothly, and you had some great like, I'll say lucky or blessings, right? Some breaks there that but- but would you do anything differently if you did it again? Or would you advise people to do something differently?

John  15:42

I don't know. I mean, we- we kind of- things really happen quickly. We probably wouldn't have jumped on this house. And we love our house. We have a lot of work to do on it, but we probably wouldn't have jumped on it. But when we were looking the um- the euro to dollar ratio was pretty- it was pretty high, and then the euro dropped right when we found this house to almost parity. And then we're like, “well, we should probably do this right now.”

Tara  16:09

Yeah, and when you say things went smoothly, it's- it's so stressful. Like, when we sent in everything, because if you make an appointment to get citizenship, I think- I think Chicago right now is two years behind. We've had a friend who's been trying to get his for six years. We had another friend who tried, I don't know, for 14 or 15, and he never got his. And his, you know, he's Italian, and I wouldn't say it's smoothly. I would say it's pretty- it's kind of intense. you- like with us, we had to send in everything in the mail, and including our original passports, our original driver's license, all of your finances, nothing can be redacted. I mean, it was absolutely nerve-wracking. It was freaky.

Michelle Hippler  16:56

Yeah.

Tara  16:57

And then you have to buy a one-way ticket to prove to them that you're going. So, we got our approval. It was 25 days before our ticket.

Michelle Hippler  17:07

Right.

Tara  17:07

So, you have to pretend you're moving.

Jeffrey Jones  17:10

That's nerve-wracking.

Michelle Hippler  17:11

That sounds like Portugal, like kind of the intent- you have to send in your passport. It's all through the mail, and then you wait, and then it's like, then you got to go like, Yeah, that's really stressful. For sure.

John  17:23

And you don't know if you're going to be a three month- three month on/six month off person, because there was a really good chance that might have happened. But we got, you know, everything fell into place.

Michelle Hippler  17:34

That's great.

Jeffrey Jones  17:34

Do you remember- I wanted to ask if there were a lot of options when you were looking for visas, because I, you know, now there's the digital nomad for Italy, there's golden visa. I don't know if you- that was option when you were going. I think they've expanded the visa programs. Did you feel like there were a lot of options? Or you were like, well, it's really just that.

Tara  17:48

When we were looking, I did not feel like there were a lot of options that we would qualify for. But to your point, in the last- I would say, what year and a half? There have been several more since COVID.

Michelle Hippler  18:00

Yeah, we're doing a product now called the Country Finder, and we were looking at 10-10, countries, and it- it seems to me, the research we did, that Italy has the most options. It's like, very like, overwhelming how many options they have now.

John  18:16

Well, that's cool. That's cool. I didn't know that. I knew of like, two options, three options.

Tara  18:22

But I'm the paperwork chick, so he's- we just- when we were talking about it, I would- I would discuss with him the options that we were qualified for because it, yeah,

Michelle Hippler  18:32

Oh, yeah.

Tara  18:33

But to your point, Jeffrey, a lot- a lot more came about after COVID, mostly like in the last year, year and a half.

Michelle Hippler  18:41

And that's the thing is, like, people only look at the criteria that's relevant to them. Anyway, there might be eight options, but there's only two really legitimate, like possible ones. You know, for- depending on what your situation is, everyone's got a different situation.

Jeffrey Jones  18:55

And to our listeners, I saw yesterday that Italy's quietly, very quietly, expanding the opportunities for healthcare workers, foreign healthcare workers, to move in, because they're struggling with that. Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  19:06

Because their healthcare workers are leaving for, like, more lucrative countries, right? There's increasing- better pay.

Jeffrey Jones  19:12

Elder population and- yeah.

Michelle Hippler  19:15

Right. Well, let's- let's move on now to like, the experience your life experience there like, what was life like in those first few months? Let's just talk about the first few months when you arrived cold from the US. Some language skills for John, zero almost- except what hunger and bathroom for Tara? Why don't you talk a little bit about your first few months in Italy?

John  19:37

Oh, yeah. Well, the first thing, a friend of mine told me, and he speaks Italian too. And he told me, he goes- he goes. One thing you learn when you speak Italian in the US, and you learn it. You get- you get to Italy, and you don't know Italian.

Michelle Hippler  19:53

Right, right.

John  19:54

It's like, yeah, you- you know Italian. You think you know it. And then you get here, and it's a whole different deal. And people talk very quickly, and you have to tell them to speak slowly, a lot, a lot more. We- you know, the first few months here were- were rough for me. Because I was playing a lot, and I literally walked off a stage and moved into the middle of nowhere, and it was- the silence was deafening.

Michelle Hippler  20:19

You mean, played a lot of gigs in Chicago?

John  20:21

Yeah, and being very involved in, you know, all that in the city, and, you know, lots- lots of bands, lots of musicians. lots of movement, and then you come here, and it's like nothing. But it wasn't nothing, it was just different. And it was very different. So, it was like-

Michelle Hippler  20:37

Right.

John  20:37

You know, things I never experienced before, and I got over it in a few months, and then we keep going.

Michelle Hippler  20:43

Right.

Tara  20:45

It was rough, I mean- so, here's a perfect example of how things went the first three months. The first two hours in our house, we did not know that Italian doors, when you close them, automatically lock. So, we locked ourselves out of our house in a town where no one knew us. We knew no one, and I spoke no Italian. I mean, I'm not going to get very far with “I'm hungry, and where's the bathroom?” And it was- John was just like, “what the heck?” And I'm like, “there's a resolution for everything. There's a resolution for everything.” And it was very, very, very important we had these people that we had been hooked up with through our realtor. 
That one of them lived in the United States 30 years ago, I think, and he hooked us up with her, and she's lived here for 30 years and had her son. So, they were a main contact for us. And it was- it was, for me, a security blanket. I think, as well as John.

John  21:47

Oh yeah. It was great.

Michelle Hippler  21:48

RIght.

Tara  21:48

So, when stuff would happen, like that day, we texted them. Because we could have gone into town, you go to the local bar, you start asking around, you know. But we just texted her because we're like, “oh my god, we just locked ourselves out of our house.” What do we do, you know? And I'm like, "I know that I can break in and I'm skinny and I can crawl through a window." And John's like, "no!" And she said, "Do you have two hours?" And we're like, yeah. She goes, "I'll figure this out. I'll text you back." Two hours later, this lovely older gentleman spoke no English. We had no idea what he was saying. Shows up with, you know, these, I'm just gonna say it, a can of WD 40, a piece of plastic, because we had- the keys were in the door on the inside. So, we lock ourselves out, completely freaked out, and then this man lets us into our house, doesn't know who we are, and says, "You don't owe me any money. I don't want anything. Welcome to Italy." And we're like-

Jeffrey Jones

That’s so nice. 

Tara

Right! And you guys, that is one of the biggest things that we have found here, is everyone is so kind and helpful, and-

Jeffrey Jones  22:57

That's great, yeah,

Tara  22:58

loving and giving. And, you know, to John's point, like, I knew no Italian, and people will talk with their hands to me, or make motions, or draw things, or- and or slow down for John. And it's so cute, because, like, he's got this guy- these guys in the bar, and they'll all go, just sit down, and they'll slow down for him. And I don't know, it's just been so heartwarming and beautiful.

Michelle Hippler  23:28

That's lovely. that seems more common in the- the southern areas of the planet in general. like that sort of warm- warmth and personality that's so- more accepting than it may be in some of the northern countries.

Jeffrey Jones  23:42

I think Italy has one of the best, like, just people being very personable. Invite you to their home for dinner. And, you know, it's just, they're just very well- And it's small. I don't know, big cities are a little different, like Milan and Rome, but the smaller areas, yeah. Very warm people.

Speaker 1  23:57

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And you know, cities are cities. You know, they're- you know, my sister was coming here to visit and she was so worried about the crime in Rome. And I'm like, "you're- you're coming from Chicago, don't worry about it."

Tara  24:10

And we're in the middle of the country. It's all good.

Speaker 1  24:13

It's pickpockets. But another thing here, it's like every person that works in the- in the industries here, like the baristas to the bartenders to the wait staff, everybody, like, really, really cares about their job and really cares about how they present to you. And it's like, you don't get any attitude. You're like, well, this is different,

Michelle Hippler  24:36

wow. And there's not that whole, “I'm going to withhold service unless I know you're gonna tip.”

John  24:41

Right, and they don't tip either, which is interesting. You know, Italy, like you were saying, Italy, Spain and Portugal are the big ones right now. We just hope nobody comes here.

Michelle Hippler  24:54

Well, it's interesting because Jeffrey and his partner abandoned the Italy route, and went with Spain, but they had very different reasons for doing that. But it sounds like you've, like, really integrated, like, more than anyone that we've talked to so far with the local culture. And John didn't I hear also that you're playing with bands there in your community?

John  25:14

I'm not actively in a band, but I have musician friends, and I go sit in and I really don't want to get too involved in like, gigs, and, you know, the gigging community, but I do want to write music with Italians, and I am doing that now.

Tara  25:27

He's making them. It's really awesome because they only do like American covers, and do a bunch of covers. And John's got this crew, and he's like, “I'm writing songs for you. You have sing them.” It's so fun.

Michelle Hippler  25:42

Wow, that's cool.

John  25:42

And I was worried about that too. I was worried I'm like, I'm not gonna find anybody here.

Jeffrey Jones  25:47

That's great.

Michelle Hippler  25:47

So, Tara, how are your language skills?

Tara  25:50

It depends on who you talk to. John just gave me a thumbs up.

John  25:53

Getting better.

Tara  25:53

So I can say more than I'm hungry and I need to go to the bathroom. I can like, order and make reservations, and I'm getting very good about being able to understand more conversations, but I'm not so great about putting sentences together. But every once in a while, throw some stuff out, and John will, like, give me the cute little thumbs up under the table, but it's- it's very interesting because I don't know. I don't feel super uncomfortable. For example, I had to go to the car guy one night, John couldn't go with me. And as I'm driving there, I'm like, "Oh my God, I don't speak any Italian, and he speaks no English." And then I thought: I can point, I can turn the car on, I can make motions, and we got everything discussed. He had to fix three things, and we figured it out.

Michelle Hippler  26:47

Yeah, that was me in Portugal.

Tara  26:48

It is scary when you come to things like the comune to discuss if we can put up a freaking mailbox. you know, it's- it's very nerve-wracking, but somehow you get your point across, or going to the doctor. I haven't had to go to the Italian doctor yet. I did have to go to the emergency room one night because I wiped out down my stairs and had to have 10 stitches because I ripped my ear in half. Anyway, that's a whole nother story, but he actually spoke English. It was like three in the morning, and our doctor was Ethiopian, spoke fluent Italian, because he lives here and spoke English. I was so lucky. And even- I wasn't nervous about going there at all, because I'm like, "I'm going into an emergency room, and they can obviously see that my ears hanging off," right? They're gonna figure it out.

Michelle Hippler  27:43

Right, right.

Jeffrey Jones  27:44

Well, it's interesting when you move to a new place, and I can give you my own stories from moving to Spain, you know, there's highs and lows, and I think you already shared kind of a low experience, like getting locked out of your house, and you're probably like, "what are we doing? This is frustrating." But you know, there's also the high moments where you're like, "we are so glad we moved here. This was right." Can you share one or two of those moments where you felt like something that validated that you made the right decision?

John  28:07

It happens a lot in the morning, and we just get up and go on the deck and have coffee, and then we just literally start laughing. We're like, "we live here." We're like, not rich. So it's like, it's just amazing. I mean, are you in- Are you in Barcelona or?

Jeffrey Jones  28:20

yes, in Catalonia. Yep, Barcelona.

John  28:22

Ah, awesome. Beautiful, beautiful. but it's just, you know, it's just a beautiful place, and you're just, you know- like Tara will ask me, she goes, "Do you think you'll ever get sick of this view?" I'm like, "when we lived in the suburbs, I didn't get sick of the view of the park. So no,"

Michelle Hippler  28:38

Right.

Jeffrey Jones  28:40

Well, based on where you are, we're picturing cypress trees and old churches, and it must be beautiful.

Michelle Hippler  28:44

Well, you have an olive garden or olive tree or-

Tara  28:46

We do!

Michelle Hippler  28:47

Or what do you? It's not an orchard. What do you call that? A grove?

Tara  28:49

An olive grove, Yeah, we have 68 olive trees. And we did- we did our first harvest this year, and although it was hard work, we have 55 beautiful green liters of olive oil to show you, and it's absolutely delicious and beautiful,

Jeffrey Jones  29:06

Nice.

Michelle Hippler  29:07

Wow.

John  29:07

We live in the mountains. There's- there's a there's a town of 1200 people here, and we're about 35 minutes from the ocean. And we live in the mountains. It's- it's pretty remote, which is why it was so quiet.

Michelle Hippler  29:19

Wow, right. And remind me, what's the nearest big city that you would go to? Is it Rome?

John  29:26

Well, that big, it's kind of hard to say. I mean, there are medium cities. There's a city Ancona that has 100,000 people, that's an hour away, but Bologna is three hours away. Rome's a little more than three hours away, and Florence is three hours away. We're kind of, we're on the eastern Adriatic coast.

Jeffrey Jones  29:43

Okay.

Michelle Hippler  29:44

Okay, so do you go back to the US a lot? Are you staying connected with your friends and family back there?

Tara  29:49

Oh yeah, John. I mean, John's on WhatsApp more than any human being I know, but I think his little musician friends miss him more than anything. It's really- seriously, he is texting or calling or video calling. It's awesome. He's got a big old family there. But yeah, this year was kind of insane. We called it the travel-lanche. We- he went back to the United States four times. I had to go back three times. We also, John played in Liverpool at Beatles Fest. It was my 60th birthday. We did York and London- I did with a friend. He went to Sweden and The Hague with a friend. We've had people here. We just dropped off the last person: Miss Hippler.

Michelle Hippler  30:34

Yeah, my sister-

Tara  30:34

Oh my gosh, so fun.

Michelle Hippler  30:35

was just there.

Tara  30:36

So easy. We had so much fun.

Michelle Hippler  30:39

Aw. Did you send her home without olive oil? Because she's gonna actually arrive here in her own house in about an hour.

Tara  30:46

She only could take a little bottle, because she said she had so much weight where, you know, if she would have given me her suitcase, I would have maxed it out, but I think she would have killed me,

Michelle Hippler  30:56

Right, right.

30:57

Music

Jeffrey Jones  31:00

Hey there, just a reminder that you can learn more about moving to Europe at livingabroadacademy.com

Michelle Hippler  31:06

Sign up for our newsletter, and stay up to date on our latest podcasts, events and more.

Jeffrey Jones  31:12

You can also submit questions and ideas for future podcasts on the website.

Michelle Hippler  31:16

We appreciate you being a part of our community. Thanks again for joining us,

Jeffrey Jones  31:20

and now back to the show.

Music

Michelle Hippler  31:28

So, let's talk about the housing situation. You jumped on the house that you got because it was the Euro, like became attractive.

Speaker 1  31:37

Yeah, we rounded out. We were looking at a few houses and tearing- you know, like every house we have ever bought, we were, you know, discussing it in the pros and cons. Me, it's when I walk in, and if there's a place, I could put a recording studio, it's a good house. We can even have a kitchen too, maybe.

Tara  31:55

Or- or a bathroom would be nice yeah, nice. Thank you.

Jeffrey Jones  31:58

That's great

John  32:00

She needs to eat and find a bathroom.

Tara  32:02

Those are my two main things.

Jeffrey Jones  32:04

The two things.

Michelle Hippler  32:05

Well see, that's her two things right?

Jeffrey Jones  32:09

You know, it's interesting that what you mentioned earlier about the exchange rate, it is, and this is a hurdle like, you know, moving money around is a big deal when you're overseas and when you want to buy a house. I'm- we're trying to buy a house. We're getting started the process. And it is terrifying to move that chunk of money when you look at the exchange rates and all the fees, and there are people that can help you, but looks like you guys did it at a great time.

Tara  32:29

We were super lucky. I had researched what I should use transfer-wise. And our realtor at the time very much liked OFX. I of course liked Wise. It depended on what the dollar amount was, that you could transfer that the max was, and if there was going to be a charge. So those were also things that we researched, because, as I'm sure you're finding, we had to put down a giant chunk of money way before we were going to close. and then you don't know what's going to happen with the market. So we had to budget based on what the Euro was at that time, which was horrifying. And then what happened was they decided that- our attorney got hold of us, and she said, "Okay, the notary is only available on this date." And I said, "that's 30 days before we were gonna close. Like we don't sell the house for 30 days." but I had already worked something out. I had already looked at worst-case-scenario, because that's who I am, and said to my you know, FA "what happens if this happens and we have to come up with this much money on this date before this?" So, we had already had a plan in place, and it's exactly what happened. but it ended up working to our advantage, because the day that we had to transfer the largest amount of money was when we were at parity, which happened for like a day, I think, which-

Michelle Hippler  33:48

Oh my gosh.

Tara  33:49

Yeah, but I also have to say that we're super lucky, because when we got here, everything that had been approved by our- I'm using air quotes by our "geometra" In John's little studio area. They had said that it was livable and could be moved-in-able, and it wasn't. There was a lake in the middle of the room. Two ceiling beams were falling down. There were two giant holes in the wall. They like- That was another thing I felt so bad. John walks into that like not only do we lock ourselves out of the house the first two hours, he opens up what's supposed to be the studio, and it's horrifying. So, you just never know, and you have to decide: is it a challenge, or is [it] an adventure? Is it a learning experience, or is it going to kill you?

John  34:40

Challenge!

Tara  34:40

No! Do you want to eat the entire cow all in one bite or do you want to cut it in little, bite-sized pieces and chew on it and digest it? John's laughing his head off at me right now.

Michelle Hippler  34:52

That's the operations- like, speaker right there. That's totally operations.

Tara  34:57

Because everything has a resolution! You- you have a map, and you have a goal right? But you might have to go left, right, through the fork, backwards. You might have to dig a hole, build a bridge, but there's always some sort of resolution. It might not be what you had initially planned on, might take longer, might take shorter, and that's what's so nice. And I do have to say, I'm very, very lucky that I moved here with a partner and we're retired. Because there is no way in hell I would have moved into a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere with critters everywhere, in the house and outside of the house, if I were working full time. I- there is no way in the world, no way. I would live in a city with no car, with transportation, you know, in something that was already done, already finished, with no critters.

Michelle Hippler  35:49

Yeah, exactly. And that was a large part of what went behind me, saying no to Portugal. I was there, ready to pull the trigger, ready with all my paperwork to start the process. And I just like- I was single, I was working for corporate America, and it was just not gonna work, you know. So, it's all the situations, you know, it's like, you sound like, you guys, like, just had a really great time. And maybe it's the mindset. you got- you know, Tara, you're there with your go-to attitude. And no matter what the situation, it's all gonna work out, you'll figure a way.

Tara  36:25

One of the biggest things I did is I came here with no expectations. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So, when I got here, everything was new and an adventure, and things- I mean, we had things living in our house that would make crazy noises at night, and poor John's from the city. You know, he's used to gunshots and screaming, but not from animals. You know? I mean-

Jeffrey Jones  36:50

Yeah, I can't handle that.

Tara  36:51

It is very much a different mindset and a different attitude. And I'm very lucky that I was here with a partner who, first of all made me come because I wouldn't have been here, and then I made him stay

Michelle Hippler  37:06

Right.

Jeffrey Jones  37:06

Yep.

Michelle Hippler  37:07

That's teamwork.

Tara  37:08

There was one other thing I wanted to say before we left- when we first were leaving, it was a lifetime decision. 100%, for me, a lifetime decision. And I'm just going to speak for John, there were some things that he was having some hard times with, cause he's got so much family, so many friends, so many band members. So, we decided before we left that we would make it a 3 year endeavor. Cause the first year sucks, the second year you're starting to get your legs, you're getting used to things, the third year you're kind of smooth and sail-y. Wait, smooth and sail-y? Sailing smoothly. So, we decided that at the end of the third year we would have a discussion, and then that's when we'll discuss whether we're staying or whether we're- what else we'll do. I think I'm gonna stay.

John  37:57

Well, I think because of I don't know what's been going on [in] the United States. I haven't really looked but what's been going on there. I think we're gonna stay

Michelle Hippler  38:07

Cause you're only on year two, so you've got another year, and if you make that decision, like, you're gonna end your days there in Italy, do you think? I mean, we can't all predict the future, but you're planning to end your days there? Like, if you make that decision, have you thought about that far in advance?

Tara  38:23

Oh, absolutely. We, just as a matter of fact, met with our attorney yesterday to discuss our Italian will, because it's very different than a US will. You know you were, we were talking about how in the US you have to have long term care, and you have to have this and that. And here we know- we know before we bought this house that we would not live in this house permanently, because it's a lot of work. We will eventually end up moving into like a little town or a little city. like the older people, it's so cute, they live in our town, they are in walking distance. The fruit and veg lady comes and guy comes, you know, every Friday, and the fish guy comes on Thursday, and the market comes once a month. So all they have to do is walk into town. Even though there are only 1200 people here, we do have a little grocery store, a little farmacia a little macelleria. Is that how I say it?

John  39:14

Yeah, that's good.

Tara  39:15

A little past- pasticceria. So, even though it's a tiny, tiny little town, everybody can walk into town and do what they need to do, or it comes here. and that's what we're gonna end up eventually doing. And then there's always- you know? And I know this may sound morbid to some people, but there's always end of life choices in Switzerland, which is only a two hour flight away or a nine hour train ride.

Jeffrey Jones  39:41

Yeah. What about death by pizza in Italy? Right? That's- I would- I would pick that.

Tara  39:45

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Come on over, Jeffrey. We can help you with that.

Jeffrey Jones  39:50

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  39:51

Well, with our last question, most important one, for most Americans,

Jeffrey Jones  39:56

Exactly, yeah. So, you know, we have a- there's- there's a couple things, I'm sure you get this- these questions all the time, what Americans are like’ “What are taxes? What about the health care what”- how would you rate the health care system? Your experience.

Michelle Hippler  40:06

Oh my god.

Tara  40:06

Well, okay. I'm gonna talk to one thing and John's gonna talk to the other. When I did my wipeout down the stairs, which is everything I tell everybody not to do down my stairs, and I did it. Perfectly. It was amazing. I mean, you can- you can call an ambulance and they'll come. But we decided to drive. We knew where to go, and so we drove there. You know, you walk in, your ears hanging off. They know how to help you. The girl at the front desk, you know, spoke a little bit of English. They were able to get us in, like, very quickly, which kind of surprised me. And not only did I have an excellent guy who sewed me up, I had three follow up appointments. He texted me for my follow up appointments, like- he's like, “it's been five days. You need to be here.” Yeah. I never received a bill. I got a bill for nothing. I got no bill.  I got nothing. Yeah, emergency room appointment, and three follow up appointments, and it was zero. And what's so great about that story is, right before we left for here, John hacked the crap out of his finger and had to get six stitches, and the bill was over $6,000 in the United States.

Michelle Hippler  41:17

Oh my god. $1,000 a stitch.

Jeffrey Jones  41:21

So, do you- if you don't mind me asking, can you access the Italian healthcare system?

Tara  41:26

Yes.

Jeffrey Jones  41:26

or are you using private insurance? Yes.

Tara  41:28

No. So, what we did was- after we received our permesso di soggiorno, then we applied for our carta d'identita. And then once we got our carta d'identita, and had to follow a million weird, different steps because every single town is different. Then we received our [tessera] sanitaria. And to get our [tessera] sanitaria as expats, we do have to pay a fee. So, you do- we have to pay a fee based on what we make in Italy, which is nothing. And then you have to go every single year, and you have to apply, and you have to take this form, and then you have to pay for it, and then you get your card. And so, my issue, I did everything through my [tessera] sanitaria through the public system, but John had a situation where we had to use the private system.

John  42:15

Yeah, I had a- I had a cyst on my wrist that was growing for years, and it started really growing here, and then it became really painful. And, you know, the minute I couldn't play guitar, it was time to do something about-

Tara  42:28

Well, and he was going to Liverpool to play at Beatles Fest, and it happened like a month before that. It was horrible.

Speaker 1  42:33

So I went uh, I wen-  I went private, and this surgeon took care of me. It was really strange. The hospital rooms are strange. The waiting rooms are strange, and like very industrial- not industrial, kind of institutional. You go through and they're not pretty. But I went into the surgery room and I- they didn't knock me out for this surgery, but it was as- it was as good as the surgery- the OR where I had back surgery in the States, at a very high end, you know, goofy North Shore Hospital. But they- he- they took care of me for Italians. It was very expensive, but perfect job. Perfect cut. I mean, everything was great.

Tara  43:19

They even assigned him an English speaking nurse, just in case.

Michelle Hippler  43:22

Wow.

Jeffrey Jones  43:23

Oh, that's nice. That's what a lot of people worry about. I've been struggling with that in Spain. I have to go to a special place because I need English. My spouse doesn't, but I do, so we go to different places, but that's tough, right? If health care you really want to communicate-

John  43:36

Yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  43:36

what's wrong.

John  43:37

My thing with Italian is the only time I will default to, like, maybe getting a translator is like- okay, if it's gonna cost us a ton of money, and I'm going to make a big, huge financial mistake here, let's hire a translator.

Michelle Hippler  43:50

Did you go private for that, John, because of the timing you just wanted it to get done and you knew that you could get it fast? Or why did you go private with that situation?  Right.

Jeffrey Jones  43:50

Oh yeah, yeah.

John  43:55

Well, it was also my hand so it's like, you know, I always get- I've had way too many surgeries, but like, hand surgeries, I want, you know, this could affect me playing. And then, you know, if I can't play, I'm just gonna take the train to Switzerland.

Tara  44:18

But also, it was very, it was very much due to timing. because their- their surgeons, and their doctors- we've had friends here who have- who this one guy, I mean, his- he's still got a leg because of his surgeon here, and he went through public. We've got a friend who had prostate cancer and he's had surgery, and they went through the public system. We had a friend who had heart surgery. He went through the public system. Totally great, but John was just like, “this is timing. I don't want to deal with it.” I know that I can get through this- this guy we knew through some friends who had had knee issues, and it was just one of those things where John's like, "I don't want to mess with the system right now. I'm- I'm going to this guy." And we went and interviewed him, and he was amazing, and John trusted him. So, we were like, “Okay, done.” And for $1,500 I think it was worth it.

Michelle Hippler  45:05

Wow.

Jeffrey Jones  45:06

That's not bad.

Tara  45:07

Ya, you think?  It would have been 15,000 in the United States with everything that they did. private room, private surgeon.

Jeffrey Jones  45:08

NNot bad at all.

Michelle Hippler  45:14

If not more.

Jeffrey Jones  45:15

Exactly. 10%. Everybody I talked to, it seems like 10% is about what they're paying, you know, 10% comparison.

Michelle Hippler  45:22

So final one, though, you had the question about the taxes. Jeffrey, right?

Jeffrey Jones  45:26

Yes, yes, and that's some people only. I've got friends that only care about taxes. They won't even ask you about health care. Like, “what are the taxes? “Uh, how- what is your tax experience been like in Italy?

Tara  45:36

Oh, okay, that is- that is one that I will tell people, cause we just clarified some stuff. I'm not even kidding, you guys, this freaking week. It has just been- it's making me sweat think about it. I thought I had done enough research on it, between blogs and expat sites and the treaty, and I really thought I had a great understanding. And then when we came here, we went and saw our commercialista, and- that was the lady, you know, who is the accountant here. We made sure that our accountant in the United States had experience with Italian taxes. He actually has dealt with some of his clients, and so he had a basic understanding. So when we met with her, when we first came here, we met with her in March, and she was like, "Oh, this, this, this is this, and this." And I was like, "Yeah, this is so exciting. That's gonna be so great." And then when we filed for our taxes this year, it wasn't even close to the same. And I was like, "what did I do wrong? How did I mess this up? This cannot be right." So in a very nice Italian way, not in a Chicago or United States way, I was like, "hey, you know, maybe we're confused. You know, shouldn't you be looking at this and this and this?" And I just kind of kept going back and going back. And she finally figured something out- seriously, last week- that she didn't know. That she thought that she did know, that she went through her people about and everything is great now. But for anybody that's coming over here I would say, whoever your US accountant is, make sure that they know how to deal with stuff over here. Whoever you're going to work with over here, if you can interview three or four different people, and have- make sure they speak English, and make sure they work with American expats, if that's what you are. And make sure you have all of your questions and interview three or four different people, because interviews don't cost anything. and make sure that you are 100% on the same page.

Michelle Hippler  47:44

Right.

Tara  47:45

And then go from there. Because I was in a world of hurt. I was really afraid that I had messed a lot of stuff up. In the end, I'm right, which is good, but if I hadn't done all- if I hadn't done all that research and everything, it could have just been a disaster, and everyone's different. I mean, there is a gentleman I spoke to who is a friend of a friend, and this man has so much money that his taxes are going to be very different.

Michelle Hippler  48:13

Right, right.

Jeffrey Jones  48:14

Yeah, that's tricky.

Michelle Hippler  48:15

So, it sounds like, from that case, that it's maybe more affordable for people who don't have a lot of money, tax-wise.

Tara  48:23

We also live in a 7% flat tax district, which was, you know- it's a district that was affected by the earthquakes, and is a certain population.

Speaker 1  48:34

The 7%, the tax retirement tax places. What is it? 2500 people in less- or less in the town? Oh, yeah. There's the certain parts of Italy where the 7% is available and certain parts where it's not.

Tara  48:51

But there were a bunch of different steps that are not on the internet that we needed to follow in order to be eligible and qualify for this 7%. Those things are not clear. So, just make sure you're doing your homework. If you can find somebody over here that will do your US taxes and your Italian taxes, that's even better. but- but watch pricing. Watch how you're working it. Make sure you interview. Make sure you have your questions, and freaking do your research.

Michelle Hippler  49:22

John and Tara, it has been a pleasure talking with both of you today and hearing your story. Thank you so much for your time, and we wish you continued success. I mean, you guys sound like you have been just charmed the whole time there, or at least having the mindset of "we have been charmed," right? So, you get what you focus on. But anyway, we wish you the best for the rest of your expat journey.

John  49:45

Thank you very much. We appreciate it, and it's great to hear you guys doing the same adventurous stuff.

Tara  49:51

I know. I love it. I want to hear your guys’ story. And by the way, if we can do this, anybody can do it.

Jeffrey Jones  49:53

Well, that's very encouraging.

Michelle Hippler  49:58

Yeah.

Tara  49:58

You guys, this has been so awesome. Thank you so much for finding us interesting.

Jeffrey Jones  50:03

Thank you, we've really enjoyed it. It'll help our listeners. So we really- thank you so much.

Michelle Hippler  50:03

Yeah!

Tara  50:10

Ciao! Ciao ciao.

Michelle Hippler  50:10

Ciao.

Jeffrey Jones  50:11

Ciao, buona notte.

Michelle Hippler  50:12

Bye.