The Expat Experience: Two Bay Area Tech Workers Retire Early in Portugal

"You have to go to the place, and do your own gut check."

In this episode, we enjoy a conversation with married expats Serene and Cliff, two well-traveled, goal-oriented former tech workers from the San Francisco Bay Area who, after many years of "auditioning" countries around the world, settled in Portugal for an early retirement. They discuss what drew them to the expat life, especially as Black Americans, as well as what they've learned as they've begun putting down roots and understanding their new home. 

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0:00  

Music.

Jeffrey Jones  0:10  

Welcome to the Experts and Expats Podcast. I'm Jeffrey Jones,

Michelle Hippler  0:14  

And I'm Michelle Hippler. We're co-founders of the Living Abroad Academy. We focus on the information Americans need to plan a move to Europe on a faster timeline than the one we experienced.

Jeffrey Jones  0:24  

We cover all the best visas to explore, along with financial and social considerations that will help you determine what country-

Michelle Hippler  0:30  

Or countries!

Jeffrey Jones  0:31  

Right, or countries might be the right fit for you and your circumstances.

Michelle Hippler  0:35  

Absolutely. A country might look great on paper, but not turn out to be what you expected. So, we talk to expats about their experiences, and experts about their particular expertise in their country.

Jeffrey Jones  0:47  

All with a goal to get you as much information as possible to make an informed decision.

Michelle Hippler  0:52  

Today, we have Serene Lewis Lyles with us. Her husband was supposed to be with us, and he got distracted, because the expat life is apparently quite busy over there in Portugal. Serene and Cliff retired early and moved from San Francisco to Portugal pretty recently, right, Serene? How long have you been there?

Serene  1:10  

We moved here this past July.

Michelle Hippler  1:13  

Oh, okay, great. So, you're in the first six months basically. The honeymoon phase is still going strong. So, Jeffrey and I both worked with Serene. We met actually in San Francisco at one point, but it's been some years, and we have not heard anything except for what Serene has been posting on her social media posts. So, we are going to just dive right in and get to hear your story of your new life, Serene

Serene  1:37  

It was so nice of you to even think of me, so I'm excited to have a conversation.

Michelle Hippler  1:41  

Yeah. So, what we want to do is just kind of dive in to hear your story. I want to start with what were you guys doing before, because you guys had a pretty big life before you retired. So, let's start with what you were doing before and then move on from there.

Serene  1:54  

Yeah, so I'll frame this as like, one year ago today. So, Cliff and I were living in Alameda, California, which, for those who don't know, is a charming little island full of Victorians just outside of San Francisco, and we'd been there for a while. I had been this time- I'd been in the Bay Area for 14 years or so, and had been working in tech. I was at one of the very, very large tech companies doing content design. I was Senior Director of Content Design, at a place that shall probably not be mentioned.

Michelle Hippler  2:28  

Yeah, yeah, especially now.

Serene  2:31  

And Cliff was also working at a tech company. He was on the food side, so he, by training and by trade, has been an Executive Chef for almost 30 years, and was Vice President of Food Innovation for another one of the very large tech organizations.

Michelle Hippler  2:51  

Cool. So, I know from your social posts that you had decided at some point that you wanted to retire early and do something fun afterwards. So, let's- let's talk about that process now.

Serene  3:00  

Yeah, so just for a little background, so Cliff and I met in 2016 and when we met, we were coming from very different places. He had just moved back to the Bay. He'd been living abroad for the past five years or so, working for various airlines, including Emirates and Philippine Airlines, had lived in the UK, had lived in Dubai. So, he'd been coming off of his own really big expat life, and at that time- so he knew when we met that he wanted to get back into that expat way of living. He really enjoyed it, and really was coming back to be close to his daughters, as one of them was sort of wrapping up college, and one of them was heading into high school. For me, when we met, I had been on kind of this mission for- maybe before we met, probably 15 years prior to us meeting, that I had decided that I was going to retire early. And the number that I had kind of arbitrarily picked when I was, I guess, in my early 30s, was 50. And so when Cliff and I met, and our relationship started to get a little serious, we shared these experiences of him having lived abroad, I'd lived abroad very briefly, but not in the same way that he had. And for me, having this dream and really being laser-focused as I would make choices about- "okay, am I buying those expensive pairs of shoes? Or am I going to save that money so I can retire early?"

Michelle Hippler  4:30  

Right.

Serene  4:30  

So bringing those dreams together and saying: "okay, we're both going to make some ruthless choices so that we can retire early and retire abroad.”

Michelle Hippler  4:40  

Nice. Very nice.

Jeffrey Jones  4:41  

How long have you lived in Portugal? It's been at least a year maybe?

Serene  4:45  

We moved to Portugal officially, semi-officially, actually, the Fourth of July. We left the states, we flew out of New York, and as our plane was taking off, the Fourth of July fireworks were going off. So, the captain actually pointed them out. He said "Okay, everybody say goodbye to the States. You know, there goes the fireworks." And for us, like, I don't know who else on that plane was in the midst of moving to Portugal, but for us, it was like a big send off. It was- it was that very sort of symbolic moment of, "okay, it's Independence Day. Here we go."

Michelle Hippler  5:20  

Yeah, here you go, yeah. And that's so symbolic too, especially for your unique case. We're always really interested in understanding why people want to immigrate, right? And for you, as Black Americans, you have a very different perspective, and that seems so symbolic in light of that, right?

Serene  5:41  

Yes.

Michelle Hippler  5:41  

Independence of the United States, right?

Serene  5:46  

Yes, it was- it was a deliberate choice, yeah.

Michelle Hippler  5:50  

And I'd like to get into that. Could you tell us, we'd like to know people's why and then their how, and so let's start with the why. Why did you and Cliff decide you want to leave the United States? And then once you finish that, tell us why you picked Portugal out of all the other countries you could have chosen.

Serene  6:05  

Yeah, there were- there were a lot of choices too. So, the why, and you know, I say this sometimes when I'm talking to friends who are considering making this move, I think it's really important that your why not only be a push from the place that you will be leaving, but also that it include a pull. And so for us, you know, there are things that- I can't speak for every Black person in the States, of course, but one of the things that is kind of a common thread is we chat with friends, is that, you know, we've been strivers our whole lives. We've- we've thrived financially, we've done well, you know, we have tried to be good citizens, all of that. And yet, there's so many, mostly, thankfully, micro-moments in the States where as Black and Brown people, you walk into a moment you know, whether it's maybe a museum opening or a Michelin restaurant. and those are those moments when you know you're going for something, maybe you're celebrating an anniversary, or you know you're just excited about this new artist whose work is going to be on display. And you have these- these small moments where somebody looks at you in surprise. and you think to yourself, "Am I imagining this?" But I guess thankfully for this sanity, we also have those slightly larger moments where somebody will actually say something, "oh, we don't get a lot of Black people here." And then you're like, "oh, yeah," all those other micro-moments when somebody looked surprised. What they were thinking is what this person, very audaciously, just said to me. So, for us, as we were thinking about, you know, what we wanted to do with the next phase of our lives, which is how we describe this time, It was important to us that that include being in a place where we felt welcome. where we could, without fear, travel. You know, just since, you know, probably people won't be able to see me. So I'm mixed. My mother's white, my father's Black. And my mother, up until very recently, lived in Idaho. and-

Michelle Hippler  8:27  

Oh my gosh.

Serene  8:28  

Yes, and I love her very much, and so I would sometimes go to visit her in Idaho. And I think that it was easy for her, even somebody who has loved and known me for 50 plus years, to forget my lived experience when I wasn't there in Idaho with her. But for her being- when I would come to Idaho and she would experience, through my eyes, what it was like to be a Black American outside of sort of those coastal spaces or those blue cities or whatever you want to call them.

Michelle Hippler  9:02  

Right.

Serene  9:03  

Because, and I will say that even in blue cities, we would have these experiences. So there's no- nobody gets like an easy pass here, unfortunately. But you know, just to not feel safe, like going to visit my mom, that- that just wasn't working for us. So, sorry. This is a long winded way of saying so there's the why, of like, the push as far as leaving the States. It is more expensive, especially California. You know, healthcare is something that we were considering as we get older. But then there's this element of wanting to be someplace where we felt welcome.

Jeffrey Jones  9:34  

Very important.

Serene  9:35  

Yes

Jeffrey Jones  9:35  

Serene was it always- was it always Portugal for you? Or did you consider any other places seriously?

Serene  9:41  

It was not. So, the first time I came to Portugal was 2005. It was not the hot destination that it is now. I wish that I had had the foresight to buy something then, because, man, you could get a gorgeous mansion on the beach for a song back then.

Michelle Hippler  10:00  

Right?

Serene  10:00  

So, I came. I loved it. I felt this- this feeling sort of the opposite, I guess, of what I'm talking about, having felt at home in the States. So I felt this feeling of like ease. That a little bit was like, "I don't know if this is real or not." Again, you doubt it when it's comfortable, you doubt it when it's uncomfortable. But it was a great visit, and I felt really safe as a woman by myself on that trip. So when Cliff and I started talking about moving abroad, we had a list of places. He lived in the Philippines, and really loved it. I love love love Italy. I think that New Zealand is gorgeous, has tons of resources. And so we just started traveling. That was kind of, you know, within six months of us starting to date, we went to the Olympics in Rio, and realized that we could travel together. And that was like, "okay, we could actually kind of do this."

Michelle Hippler  10:52  

Nice.

Serene  10:53  

And, yeah, you know, it's nice when, you know, early so that you can be planning your lives together. And so what we did was really two to three times a year, we would try to go to a new country and see if it was the one. So, you know, one that was kind of a long shot that we tried was Guatemala. And you know, each country that we went to, we would learn something new, either about ourselves and what we wanted, or we would learn a lot about that country, hopefully. And as we went through traveling all around the world, hitting most of the continents, we ended up with a list that included Uruguay, for me, New Zealand was on there. I don't think it was on there for Cliff. Italy was on that list. So, those were- those were our top ones. And I kept saying to liff, "but we have to hit Portugal. We have to see Portugal before we make a decision." And it was our plan, actually, in November of 2020 to come to Portugal and check it out. But of course, COVID had other plans, and so we ended up having to let- to delay that. But once we came, it was an immediate decision.

Jeffrey Jones  11:58  

Wow.

Michelle Hippler  11:59  

Nice.

Jeffrey Jones  11:59  

So that's- that's- that's a breakthrough moment.

Serene  12:01  

Yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  12:01  

You know, you really hope for that. And you know that- a lot of people, they really get= they're just not sure. So, that's, that was good for you, that you had that.

Serene  12:09  

Yes, and we had done enough research before coming, especially because of that delayed gratification of not being able to come in 2020. So, we ended up being here in November of 2021.

Michelle Hippler  12:22  

Oh funny.

Serene  12:22  

Still, yes, you know, still peak COVID time, though.

Michelle Hippler  12:27  

Yeah. Well, you missed me by a month.

Serene  12:29  

Really?

Michelle Hippler  12:29  

I got- yeah, I got there in September.

Jeffrey Jones  12:31  

Oh, that's right.

Michelle Hippler  12:32  

Because I was supposed to go in March of that- of 2020, and had to pivot. And thank God, as a single person being in Portugal during the pandemic- for the first month, like, oh my god, it would have been awful.

Serene  12:46  

Right. And you would have been stuck.

Michelle Hippler  12:48  

Yeah, exactly. With no friends, no language, no idea of how to go to a grocery store. Like, you know, it would have been awful. But I did go the minute things opened up. So, I got there, like, August, September, and then I stayed a month, or six weeks maybe. I can't even remember now. With all the paperwork ready to go, like I had everything to pull the trigger.

Serene  13:10  

Really?

Michelle Hippler  13:10  

And I kept- and I- and when I got there, it was like, "okay, this is it. This is it. This is it." And then it was like- and I was working for a US company at the time, full time employee, and it was kind of under the radar. Like my manager at the time was like okay with it, but the longer I stayed there, it's like I wasn't pulling the trigger, and I wasn't pulling the trigger. And it was like there was a resistance. And it was like- it was a whole process of like, then having to say, "why am I not pulling the trigger? What is it?" And there were a bunch of different reasons we've kind of covered in other episodes too, but it was like it didn't feel like the right place. I think resonance was the thing for me personally.

Serene  13:47  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  13:47  

And it's very different- It's a very different experience to be single, going to a different country. because Jeffrey and his partner, you know, have traveled extensively together. It's just like a totally different experience. Things are easier in a lot of ways, you know. there are troubles too, like, because, you know, Jeffrey and Oscar are having a very different experience, you know, as expats, you know. So, that's- that's kind of- yeah, go ahead.

Serene  14:12  

Yeah, I can imagine, especially, you know, and people ask sort of pros and cons of Portugal, and one thing that I would say, as a woman, is the patriarchy is alive and well here. Right?

Michelle Hippler  14:28  

Yeah.

Serene  14:29  

There have been times when Cliff and I have been out in the world, and you know, maybe we're buying something, and you know, because I have a purse, I will have the cash. And so I'll hand cash to someone, and you can almost see them kind of short circuit. like, "but money comes from men?" And they will actually give the change to Cliff.

Michelle Hippler  14:52  

Oh my gosh.

Serene  14:53  

And it's the strangest thing I'm like-? And then he gives it to me, and then I put it back into my purse.

Michelle Hippler  14:59  

Oh my gosh.

Jeffrey Jones  15:00  

That's a new quirk.

Serene  15:00  

Yeah, so, I- I totally get that it is not the right place for everyone.

Michelle Hippler  15:06  

And it- A lot of it had to do with the work. Like I was having to work American hours, and then thinking I would get all my sort of tourist fun life stuff done in the mornings. But then, because I didn't end until 9pm at night, I didn't realize how much I really do need to decompress. So, I'd be up until midnight and then not be able to get up early.

Jeffrey Jones  15:26  

Oh, the time zones thing is- yeah, it's crazy.

Michelle Hippler  15:28  

Yeah. And it's like, "can I meet a bunch of people during those hours.” Those few hours I have in the morning.

Serene  15:34  

Right.

Michelle Hippler  15:34  

I'm not sure I can. You know? So.

Jeffrey Jones  15:37  

And there's layers to this. I mean, there's, "oh, this country's right for me." I think last- was last year? I forget when we decided Spain is going to be it for sure. And, you know, we can tell you why. There's a list of- but now we're in “what part of Spain?”

Serene  15:48  

Oh yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  15:48  

And they have four or five different micro-cultures. And we just got back from Murcia, I can now say it correctly, Murcia, and, you know, exploring that area. And, you know, we pretty much finalized an area, but there's- it's not you're not done once you pick a country. Hopefully you found an area you liked pretty quickly.

Serene  16:06  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  16:06  

Once you decided on Portugal, how long did it take for you from making that decision of we're going to do Portugal to actually being on that plane on the Fourth of July, moving there?

Serene  16:20  

So we came Thanksgiving, we apparently love holidays for big moves and big decisions. So, Thanksgiving of 2021, was our first time here. And on that trip, we only visited Lisbon and Porto. And so it wasn't until we- we made the decision then. So what? Thanksgiving 2021, and so then just sort of skipping ahead- so we left in 2024. so almost three years, door to door.

Michelle Hippler  16:51  

Okay.

Jeffrey Jones  16:52  

So what visa process have you-

Serene  16:53  

Oh and Cliff is here.

Jeffrey Jones  16:54  

Oh, sorry. Oh great.

Serene  16:55  

Sorry, to step on you Jeffrey.

Jeffrey Jones  16:57  

It's alright.

Cliff  16:57  

Hey all, sorry I'm late.

Michelle Hippler  16:58  

Hi there, that's okay. Glad you're able to join.

Serene  17:01  

You got distracted by bike toys?

Cliff  17:03  

Cleaning, actually. Not something I'm very fond of so, surprisingly, I got distracted by it.

Jeffrey Jones  17:08  

Ok. Excellent. Yeah, thanks for joining us. Nice to meet you.

Cliff  17:12  

You as well.

Michelle Hippler  17:13  

Yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  17:13  

Yeah. So, we were just getting the part of, you know, how. You know, you picked Portugal, how you got there, and just- this is like, what visa worked for you? These are the nuts and bolts, right? Like, how did you make it a reality? And that- that can be a challenge once you pick a country, and then how you're going to stay there permanently.

Serene  17:29  

Yeah. And actually, Cliff joined at the perfect time, because a lot of the sort of technical work and the visa work landed on him. So, but just to give you sort of a soft entry, I can- I can give high-level and then I'll pass it over to Cliff. Once we decided on Portugal, to your point, Jeffrey, there were a couple things that needed to happen. So, we needed to decide on which kind of visa we wanted. And then once we decided on a visa, then we needed to take the steps based on that visa. And originally we thought that we were going to do the Golden Visa, because at the time of our first interest, that was a fairly viable option in Portugal. You couldn't invest in the coastal areas anymore, but you know, you could invest in all sorts of parts of wine country, and Portugal is a beautiful country, so that was all well and good. But as we were, you know, going through this like, “okay, COVID is still alive and well, and we've just picked this country and, you know, we need to find a place where we want to live that's not in the coast that allows us to invest.” And Portugal during that time, just tightened those visa requirements more and more. They actually eliminated the Golden Visa, sort of briefly, and then they brought it back. And even though we already qualified for the Golden Visa when they eliminated it, then, you know, speaking of things that can be challenging-

Michelle Hippler  18:50  

Yeah.

Serene  18:50  

with coming to Portugal, there was a little bit of bureaucracy that led to us not being able to get our paperwork from the bank so that we could submit it to the country. So in the end, we ended up doing a D7 visa.

Michelle Hippler  19:04  

Okay.

Serene  19:04  

Which has totally different requirements that I'm happy to get into.

Cliff  19:07  

Yeah, and on that part, I think when we first got into it, you know, Serene was saying, you know, we went down the road of Golden Visa. You know, one of the primary reasons for that was we get to start going towards citizenship while we were still residing in the US, right? So, it had great benefits in the sense that we only needed to be in Portugal two weeks over a two year period. And so that would already start our clock for getting towards either permanent residency or citizenship. And so for us, it was really appealing. We knew we wanted to live here. We knew we wanted to purchase so all the stars aligned, as we thought, moving forward towards a Golden Visa. So, when we really got into it, you know, me and Serene kind of had the conversation. If it wasn't really for the fact that we could jump start our timeline, I don't know that we would have necessarily felt that we needed to go that route. because unlike most people who apply for the Golden Visa, we planned on being permanent residents here. So, it wasn't really about staying as little as possible. It was truly about, this is where we want to call home. We want to be familiar with the place. We want to become part of the culture. So, for us, it was really easy to pivot when all of the technical problems started to happen around the Golden Visa where they were, "it's off, it's on, it's new, it's old." So, for us, it was like, "you know what? Let's just pivot." You know, we start a little bit later. That's not a big deal, but we still get to be where we want to be. And it actually was a lot less expensive from a visa process to do the D7 over the Golden Visa. So I think- I think we had calculated it was probably going to be about 25 to 30k on the Golden Visa, and then we went to D7 it was a couple thousand each, really. So, it was a lot less expensive and something that was very manageable for most people to do.

Michelle Hippler  20:43  

Right, and you had a date for your retirement too? Like, so, when you do the D7 you're- you can't be employed? How does that work?

Cliff  20:51  

Yes, on the D7 it's passive. And so for us, we had kind of projected when that would happen, as far as retirement and things like that. But like everything in Portugal thus far, just because it has become so popular, the system's just overwhelmed by the number of people who are now trying to get in. So-

Michelle Hippler  21:06  

Yeah.

Cliff  21:06  

Something that would have taken you three to six months with regards to applying, you know, getting your visa, you know, then establishing residency takes a year now. And so, you know, we thought we would be ready- we thought the house would be ready, you know, so that's another thing. And so, all the things just took a little bit longer. So, we just basically kicked the can down the road a little bit, extended a little longer, and still made it work out.

Serene  21:28  

Yeah, and to- add to that, a little bit- so yeah with the D7 you have to have passive income that meets a certain requirement, and it's a certain amount per individual, or a slightly larger amount for a couple. and I think it's less than 20k? Something like that.

Cliff  21:47  

For a couple.

Serene  21:47  

As far as- Yeah, for a couple. you could still work, if you want to. It's not like they check to see if you filed for retirement or anything in the States. They just want to know that you are not relying on an employer to be able to survive in Portugal.

Michelle Hippler  22:02  

Right, okay. Did you do a Do-it-yourself approach?

Cliff  22:05  

No.

Michelle Hippler  22:05  

Oh, okay, okay,

Cliff  22:07  

No DIY. Well, just because of one: the language challenge, being in a country with a different language. Two: just the challenges we had already experienced around the Golden Visa. It was just- it was just- it just made more sense for us to get people who were in-country professionals at it, who knew what they were doing, to just do the process. We have several friends who have since moved here who did it on their own, and they're still waiting for their residency card. While we've gotten ours, we've been here, we've done all the things. And so. while there is a savings in doing it yourself, there's also a cost. And so, it's really kind of how you want to differentiate how valuable is your time and peace of mind. Is it really worth that?

Michelle Hippler  22:49  

Yeah, yeah.

Serene  22:49  

Yeah, Jeffrey, you're laughing like you know what we're talking about.

Jeffrey Jones  22:53  

In Spain, we hired professionals. We started off like, "maybe we can do this," and then suddenly the red tape was everywhere, right? It was like, "okay, no, we're gonna have to-" And believe me, it was so worth it. So, even though you got professionals, what- what- how did you research the move? Like, you know, some people go to YouTube, some people look at different things. What did you use to, you know, gather information about Portugal?

Serene  23:14  

We have really different approaches when it comes to gathering information. So, I love- it almost feels like osmosis. I love word of mouth, you know? I love- first of all, I'm an extrovert, so I just love talking to people and finding out their experiences. But thankfully, I'm married to somebody who also likes to do real research, so you'd have to say all the places you went.

Cliff  23:35  

Yes, well, you know- So I'll back up a little bit, because the research for us, I think, started years ahead of time. Really trying to figure out if it's going to be Portugal. We were traveling prior to COVID, I'd say maybe a couple countries a year. Kind of auditioning places that we thought may align with what we wanted. And each time we went somewhere, there was things we took off the list that like, "yeah, no, that's not quite what we want." But we also came back with some modifications to that list that we found really kind of gave us a nice rubric that we could go by. And so right before COVID hit, we were going to Portugal, and I was doing all the research, you know, cost of living, health care, you know, crime, all the statistics that you could think of, right? And based on the rubric we had, it was blowing it out of the water. And I'm just like, "there's just no way it's this good." Like, you know, it looks great on paper, you know.

Michelle Hippler  23:41  

Right, right.

Cliff  24:04  

So, you know, on paper, it was like, “okay, if it's anywhere close to what it looks like on paper, this is going to be the place.” And what happened when we got here, not only were the things that I did the research on accurate, they were almost a little understated, you know. And it was one of those things where I was very surprised on. You know, after traveling for so many places, we really wanted to go to a place that had a strong sense of community. Where people took care of each other. They looked out for each other, you know. It's like when we were kids and, you know, you could go to your neighbor, you know everyone on the street, you know. And one of the things me and Serene joke about now is one of the keys, I think, if people are looking for places, and that's something they want. Find a country that has a lot of ways of welcoming you and saying hi, you know. Because in Portugal, you've got bom dia, boa tarde, boa noite- like there's so many just formal greetings. Or go to a place that only has one greeting, but they use it for everything, and they say it all the time. And for me, one of the things that we started to- to understand is even with the bureaucracy, the system itself forces you to engage with other people, get to know other people, speak to other people. The culture in itself, when you see someone, everyone speaks, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good night. And so just having a place that I didn't know was what I wanted, and have that and have such a sense of community when we got here so quickly, like I said, it just blew the statistical data out of water with just the real people, warm, heartfelt welcomes that we got.

Serene  25:55  

Yeah, I think if you're gonna make a big move, and the only reason why I'm saying this because I'm actually hearing about people who aren't doing this. You have to go to the place and do your own gut check. You know, Michelle, you were talking about your experience. How you thought you're going to move here and when you actually did the gut check, it didn't sit for you. I think, you know, you can look at Numbeo, you know, that's a site that I love, as far as like doing comparative data between cities of, “okay, cost of living, or crime or whatever.” You know, you can read all the Reddits you want. All of that is- is good, useful, a great starter, but to come and experience, you know, to Cliff's point, like, there's a department store that we go to fairly regularly. And I told Cliff, I think it was around Christmas, I was like, "I think people say hello when they walk into an elevator here." And he was like, "Oh, that's not in the city." And I was like, "[unintelligible.]" And then I was by myself, and I messaged him: "someone just said hi to me in the elevator!" And then we're there recently, and people were coming and going, "bom dia," "bom dia." "Bom dia," "bom dia." It's like you're in the big city in an elevator, and people take the time to, like, greet the room, which I think is so lovely.

Jeffrey Jones  27:11  

That's nice. Very friendly. Yeah,

Michelle Hippler  27:11  

You know, I actually remember that when I was a kid, people used to do that.

Serene  27:15  

Yeah, it was normal.

Cliff  27:17  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  27:17  

Yeah, yeah. You know, we haven't actually said where you- where you are, I actually found the Washington Post article about- that had you guys interviewed in it. Did that- Are you in that area? Or it sounds like you're in a city now?

Serene  27:30  

No. So the department store is actually in Lisbon, which is about an hour from us. So we, you know, Cliff referenced this earlier, but we- on our second trip to Portugal, we had a list of like four, maybe five places that we wanted to visit that were in the area where we could purchase to qualify for the Golden Visa. So this was February of 2022, and our first stop was L'and Vineyards, which is about an hour almost due east of Lisbon. It, you know-

Michelle Hippler  28:03  

Oh.

Serene  28:05

Yeah. So, in the city, an hour outside of a big city, you'd probably be in the suburbs. But in Portugal, for people who haven't been here, like you leave Lisbon and you're instantly in the countryside.

Jeffrey Jones  28:16  

Wow.

Serene  28:17  

And so we're in a region called the Alentejo- is the long way [to] the locals Alentej, and it is one of Portugal's many wine countries, which, you know, in when we were living in California, sort of our happy, calm place was to go up to Sonoma or Napa. And just right away, you take that breath of fresh air, and you're so happy.

Jeffrey Jones  28:37  

That's very nice.

Serene  28:38  

Yeah, and we got out here, and instantly had that feeling of like, we can be calm here. We can like, think, we can play. We both love to be outdoors in different ways. And we were here for two nights and made the decision and canceled all of our other plans.

Michelle Hippler  28:58  

Wow.

Serene  28:59  

You know, actually booked an extra night to be here, you know, so that we could be in it more, but put down the money to have a house built. And they told us it would be done in 15- 15 months from once, you know, all the paperwork was signed and done, and ended up being a bit longer than that. But that's-

Cliff  29:21  

Like twice that.

Serene  29:22  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  29:23  

Yeah. That's pretty much what I hear about Portugal labor.

Jeffrey Jones  29:26  

Everything takes longer, yeah.

Cliff  29:27  

Yeah, yes.

Serene  29:29  

Yeah.

Cliff  29:29  

Yes.

Serene  29:30  

Yeah. If you're gonna, like, try to get something done, plan on doing it two times, you know. So, if you want to, like, sign up for something, go twice.

Jeffrey Jones  29:38  

Did the same thing happen with your visa process? Did it take longer than you thought? Or?

Serene  29:43  

We had kind of different visa experiences. So, Cliff had done, you know, as he shared-  

Cliff  29:51  

All the research.

Serene  29:51  

Yeah, he'd done all the research, and he very smartly, went on his visa application, said that you were moving. In, like, January? Or something like that?

Cliff  30:02  

Yeah, I pushed the timeline up so that they actually had an incentive to get it done.

Serene  30:07  

Yeah. So, he said that he was moving in, like, January of 2024. And I'm over here, like Little Miss Honest, and also overly- I don't know, you know, just like putting too much into it. And so I was like, "oh, no, I'm moving in June of 2024," and they're like, "oh, June? oh, we're gonna do your paperwork in July."

Michelle Hippler  30:27  

Oh wow.

Serene  30:27  

And so Cliff had his appointment, and they processed it so quickly he had his visa within a couple months.

Michelle Hippler  30:35  

Wow.

Serene  30:36  

Yeah, you might have even had your visa, like, around when I had my first appointment. And then for me, I had my appointment and got my visa three times- like it took them three times longer to do mine than it took them to do Cliffs. And then, Cliff you- do get a visa, and then you have to have a second appointment where you are able to declare yourself as a resident. Your residency lasts for two years, and then you have to reapply for three years. And then after that, you can apply for your passport or citizenship. And you know, Cliff had this amazing residence appointment that was like, just outside of Lisbon, super convenient, like bopped in from the States, had his meeting, whatever. And when it came time for mine, that they were like, we're not sure if we're even going to be able to get you an appointment for your residency. And then when they did, they- they were able to find an appointment for me that was in the far, far corner of Portugal. There's actually a song in Portuguese, the town is called Braganza. And the song in Portuguese is called "Five Hours to Braganza."

Cliff  31:46  

Nine.

Serene  31:46  

Nine? Is it “Nine Hours to Braganza?”

Cliff  31:48  

It's “Nine Hours to Braganza.”

Serene  31:49  

“Nine Hours to Braganza.” And it took me nine hours to get to Braganza for this appointment.

Jeffrey Jones  31:55  

My goodness.

Michelle Hippler  31:56  

Oh my gosh.

Serene  31:57  

So, very different experiences.

Michelle Hippler  31:58  

Funny too, because you're married.

Serene  32:01  

Yes!

Cliff  32:02  

We applied- but, and that was the thing, and anyone who's doing this, who's married definitely do it together. Serene was working. So, it was one of those things where, when you actually try to get- there's a company called VFS that you have to go through this portal to book, right? And when I originally went through to book, there was no time available for like, five months. And what I was doing is every day I would go back into the portal and I'd recheck. Because what I was starting to realize is that people were booking multiple appointments just in case they didn't have the paperwork in time, and then they would cancel them within days-

Michelle Hippler  32:36  

Oh yeah.

Cliff  32:36  
Of- yeah, within days of the appointment, so that they didn't mess up. And so once I realized that we had gotten our background checks done multiple times. So it was still fresh, because we didn't know when it was going to be. We had all of our paperwork ready, had everything queued up and ready to go, and I found an appointment. But unfortunately, Serene was traveling for work at that time, so I basically within, I think, three days of finding it, I was able to go into VFS, have my first round, get that done, and then kind of speed the process along. But it is definitely something you've gotta, you've gotta do homework, and you've gotta keep looking. If not, time will just tick by and nine months, ten months, a year later, you're still waiting,

Michelle Hippler  33:15  

And you were- you were lucky, because you were just across the water from the office.

Cliff  33:19  

Exactly.

Michelle Hippler  33:20  

Like I was in Seattle when I went down to- had to make that appointment with them. Like, you know, it's an easy flight, but, you know, and I was flexible with my time at that time too. So, right, yeah, it depends on where you are in the country too, because Portugal doesn't have that many VFS offices.

Cliff  33:35  

No.

Serene  33:35  

Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Hippler  33:36  

And they all operate very differently, because I had heard really horrible things about, I think, the Chicago office or the DC office, and that I heard that San Francisco is supposed to be the most like pleasant experience.

Cliff  33:48  

Oh really?

Michelle Hippler  33:49  

Yeah.

Serene  33:49  

It was pleasant. I thought they were very nice. They were super forgiving. I had a- you have to have a money order when you go. And each month the amount of the money order to pay for the processing fee changes based on the exchange rate. And even though we got help with our process, unfortunately, I had received in- the incorrect amount. And so, you know, got there and the guy was like, “well, this isn't right, but you know, you can go out and just get a new money order when we're done, and just bring it." Like he was super nice about it. But San Francisco, I think at least when we were going through it was known for also being the most strict, and so, you know, really rigorous with your paperwork, and they would take the maximum amount of time to process.

Michelle Hippler  34:31  

Okay.

Serene  34:31  

Yeah, we have friends who went through the process. So, we have friends who- who also did San Francisco, and they didn't get that appointment that- you know, I went to Braganza and Cliff got to be outside of Lisbon at the beach, basically.

Michelle Hippler  34:45  

Right.

Serene  34:45  

So, it really didn't matter which office you went to as far as getting that next appointment. And then also, we have a friend who did their initial paperwork in Houston and was processed pretty quickly, but then also still didn't get an appointment. So, I know there's a lot of rumor out there, you know, is it- “what does it take to get that appointment”?

Michelle Hippler  35:08  

Yeah.

Serene  35:09  

And we know many people who've moved here and it really hasn't mattered, like, "okay, is it because of a spouse? Is it because you've bought property? Is it because you used a lawyer and not a lawyer? Is it because you went to this office or that office?" And unfortunately, we don't have that kind of pro-tip, how to game the system. It seems really hit or miss.

Michelle Hippler  35:30  

Luck of the draw. Yeah.

Jeffrey Jones  35:32  

Do you feel like there's anything major you would do differently? I mean, it sounds like you took a great path.

Serene  35:38  

I would not ship our car.

Jeffrey Jones  35:40  

Okay.

Cliff  35:40  

[laughs] Yes. Definitely don't ship a car.

Michelle Hippler  35:40  

Oh, interesting.

Jeffrey Jones  35:40  

Gotcha, yeah.

Michelle Hippler  35:44  

And why? Tell us why.

Cliff  35:46  

So many reasons.

Serene  35:46  

This has been your nightmare.

Cliff  35:47  

So, there's a few things. One: you know, we were wanting to be very conscientious car buyers, so we bought a hybrid e-vehicle with a battery, and because of that battery almost made it impossible to ship. We had a delivery date. We got to New Jersey, dropped it off, you know, had planned this cross country adventure so we could see all the places in the US that we didn't get to see while we were here. So, for months we were driving across, and that part was great. We got to New Jersey, dropped the car off on the 2nd, and they were supposed to be leaving on the 10th. And and then from that point forward, the nightmare just started. Where, "oh, nope, we couldn't get in on that, the hazmat team didn't get a chance. Oh, couldn't get it on that one. Oh, couldn't get in on that one." And so for several months, it just kept getting bumped, just wouldn't happen, just wouldn't happen, just wouldn't happen. And we finally, five months later, finally got it on a ship. But because of the timing, it landed here right around Christmas. So, everyone's off on holidays. You know, there's maybe half days, half work weeks, all this other stuff. So, it's set in the port here in Portugal for at least another month, once they got here.

Michelle Hippler  36:53  

Wow.

Cliff  36:53  

And just the paperwork and just everything else. So, just, it's an on- it's an ongoing process. It's- unless your employer is shipping you, you know, moving you, and they're taking care of everything as an individual. It's just not worth it. If you love your car, you'll find another car you love.

Michelle Hippler  37:11  

Right.

Cliff  37:11  

It's just not worth- it's- there's the cost, there's the headache, there's just the stress of all of it. And while we thought we were like, you know, there's a lot of news, and there's a lot of things out there about the taxes in Portugal and how expensive it is to purchase a car because of the additional taxes.

Michelle Hippler  37:27  

Right.

Cliff  37:27  

I can honestly tell you that you're probably better off paying the additional cost and not having to deal with the additional cost of shipping and importing. So you're not going to lose because of the additional cost here. If anything, you may come out a little bit under but it's definitely not worth "okay, I'm going to do this myself. I'm going to ship it. I'm going to save." It's really not going to happen.

Michelle Hippler  37:45  

Right. Did you ship your stuff too? Or was it just the car?

Cliff  37:50  

We did.

Michelle Hippler  37:50  

You did.

Cliff  37:51  

We shipped both, yeah.

Michelle Hippler  37:52  

Okay.

Serene  37:52  

Yeah, but the stuff came separately because, you know, we-

Michelle Hippler  37:55  

And from San Francisco? Or did you have to take that to New Jersey too?

Serene  37:59  

No. So, we had the movers come at the beginning of April, and then that's when we started our slow cross country adventure. Stayed in California for a little while after that, and then went to, you know, visit family and visit sites. You know, Colorado, New Mexico, Jackson Hole. We were all over the place for- for a while there. And so during that whole time, our stuff was- was shipping across and actually beat us here, which was really delightful. Yeah? That was, that was a surprise win.

Michelle Hippler  38:33  

Ah, nice.

Cliff  38:35  

One thing I will say, the pro-tip that I will give, especially anyone who's going- in California, that will be listening to this or seeing this is: when you leave California, you have to leave California. And so, what I mean by that is we actually ended up having to re-establish residency in Nevada.

Michelle Hippler  38:53  

Oh, yeah.

Cliff  38:53  

And that was for a few reasons. One: is taxes, right? California has some of the highest taxes in the US, and they will continue to tax you, even if you're not there.

Michelle Hippler  38:53  

Yeah.

Cliff  38:53  

And so, what they do is they have this exit thing that you have to do where, you know, you can re-register your car somewhere else, change your license plate, change your driver's license, you know, register to vote somewhere else.

Michelle Hippler  39:15  

Yeah.

Cliff  39:16  

If you have any ties back in California, you can potentially still be taxed there- anything that you're making. And so, for us, as we were doing that cross country jaunt, we stopped in Nevada for 48 hours. Long enough to be able to take care of all the paperwork we needed to do. Got everything set up, and it's- that part has been great.

Michelle Hippler  39:36  

Yeah. Does that include getting the driver's license in Nevada, establishing residency there, and then how are you getting your mail? Do they allow post office box or PMB for your address?

Cliff  39:47  

We have what's called a traveling mailbox.

Michelle Hippler  39:48  

Ok, yeah.

Cliff  39:49  

So, basically, we have a digital, virtual- where all of our mail goes there. They do the scanning, upload. We'll decide what they want them to open, throw away or forward, and usually manage it through that.

Michelle Hippler  40:00  

Yeah, so what I'm getting to though, is, and this is something that we wanted to kind of bring up in a- in a separate webinar, right? Was that banks want a physical address.

Cliff  40:10  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  40:10  

So, when I was doing the research, there were only, like, three- maybe three states that allowed you to have a PMB address as your permanent residence, and that was South Dakota, which I went with.

Cliff  40:23  

Right.

Michelle Hippler  40:24  

And so- and I was able to actually start my business in South Dakota also.

Serene  40:28  

Oh, nice.

Michelle Hippler  40:28  

And I have a registered agent through my traveling mailbox, and I heard that Texas and maybe Florida were the other three states that did that. So, how are you guys managing your official, like physical residence and and all of that? And are you able to vote through Nevada?

Cliff  40:44  

We are, yeah. We are definitely able to vote. We did absentee this past election. And basically what we did is in Nevada, establishing residency is different than domicile. And so residency in Nevada is as simple as going to a trailer park or a mobile park or a campsite, and staying for X number of days and establishing that you've been there for X number of days, and you can use that physical address in order to change your bank, do all these other things. And then from there, with the post office your forwarding address.

Michelle Hippler  40:45  

Right.

Cliff  40:49  

And so, then you forward your forwarding address to your virtual mailbox or whatever that's going to be. So, your official documentation from wherever that is, that you've established your residency location, you just then have to follow up and do the change of address that then forwards that from there.

Michelle Hippler  41:30  

Right.

Serene  41:31  

And- and just to make it super clear for anyone who's like wanting to pursue this path, it is very important that you have an actual physical address.

Michelle Hippler  41:40  

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Serene  41:31  

Yeah. And so, for us, we have a physical address, and the reason why it's so important is because even with that traveling mailbox address, which isn't a PO box, it's an actual address, like your driver's license gets sent to the physical address,  and so-

Michelle Hippler

and credit cards too

Serene

Oh I suppose So, yeah,

Michelle Hippler  41:49  

I just went through that. It got sent to my sister's address, okay, unbeknownst to me, and then I had to cancel the card and have them send it to me at where I am, right?

Serene  42:15  

Oh, wow.

Michelle Hippler  42:15  

So it- the banks and the credit cards are the sticking points.

Serene  42:19  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  42:19  

So, but it's like in Nevada, the traveling mailbox, it doesn't say PMB-

Cliff  42:25  

No.

Michelle Hippler  42:25  

on your driver's license?

Serene  42:27  

No, no.

Michelle Hippler  42:28  

Interesting.

Serene  42:28  

Our physical address from the lease that we got as part of our cross country trip. So we got a lease at a place for long enough to meet the requirements. We, of course, have been able to receive our mail there when we've been there, and then when we're not there, we have this traveling mailbox that does not say PMB. It has proper numbers and occurs in a real place. So, it worked.

Michelle Hippler  42:54  

Wow, because I-

Serene  42:56  

And it is actually called, sorry, it is actually called Traveling Mailbox. So, if somebody wants to search this.

Michelle Hippler  43:01  

Yeah, I used to use them, but when I heard about the benefits of the South Dakota- because they could, I had a car at that time, and they were able to register my car there too, with me only having to stay one day. I stayed one day to go get my driver's license, and then I showed proof that I had stayed one day at a hotel. But I will say that just recently, I got an email from that mailbox company saying our rights are under attack. South Dakota representatives are now trying to say you have to live for 30 days at your address that you have on your driver- which is impossible if it's a PMB- or you can't vote. So, they're trying to strip those people of their voting rights, and I would imagine it's because there's a lot of people doing that now.

43:46

[music]

Michelle Hippler 43:50

Hi there. I just wanted to clarify for those who don't understand what we're talking about in terms of the traveling mailboxes in South Dakota. I have a Private Mailbox through a company where I am able to use that Private Mailbox address as my official resident address with the state of South Dakota. So, that means that the PMB box number is on my driver's license, and I was told through various different channels that supposedly, the banks and the credit cards are supposed to accept that address as my legal resident, because it is the law of South Dakota that that is possible. But I have not found that to be to- the case, banks and credit card companies will always want a physical address where there is no PO or PMB in the address. So, that's just clarification on that.

Jeffrey Jones  44:46  

Hey, there just a reminder that you can learn more about moving to Europe at livingabroadacademy.com

Michelle Hippler  44:51  

Sign up for our newsletter and stay up to date on our latest podcast, events, and more.

Jeffrey Jones  44:58  

You can also submit questions and ideas for future podcasts on the website.

Michelle Hippler  45:02  

We appreciate you being a part of our community. Thanks again for joining us.

Jeffrey Jones  45:06  

And now back to the show.

Jeffrey Jones

Serene you touched on this earlier, but you know, we'd like to hear you know, your general experience is kind of a big statement, right? Being a foreigner there, and specifically Black Americans, you know, how, how would you summarize that experience?

Serene  45:25  

I think the summary is: it's been very positive. And Cliff used to say this to me after he had lived in the Philippines, that his experience of living there was that, unlike being in the States, he wasn't Black, he was an American first. And I think that's something that we both wish felt more true when we were in the States. that-

Michelle Hippler  45:52  

Yeah.

Serene  45:52  

That, first of all, we are a community of people, and then we are people who are all Americans. And then you have your lived experiences that might make you different, and that might include your gender, your race, your sexual orientation, whatever it might be. But like that should really be at the bottom, and here it just never comes up. And so while we carry, you know, sort of a now emptier backpack of having been Black Americans, and there used to be this sort of permanent weight on our backs. We're aware of the fact that that backpack has had these bricks taken out of it- of "oh, how are people going to react to me in this moment?" And you know, it doesn't feel like a backpack as much to walk into a moment to be like, "oh, I don't speak the language, but I'm gonna do my best." It feels like being a beginner, and being a beginner is very different than a permanent backpack that's been strapped to you by other people. So, I think in general, it's been really positive.

Cliff  46:54  

No- been very positive. Yeah, it's, you know, I think for me, in the same question. It's definitely been very positive I find, as Serene was saying, you know, the fact that I'm not viewed as Black first, you know, you know that people don’t even look up. Like you know, you walk by as it's been point, you know, everyone just greets you, and they move on. Unless there's a reason for them to stop. And our car just got here, so they see our Nevada license plates, because that's where we registered our car. And everyone's like, "oh, Nevada! Area 51! Las Vegas!" Or something like that. So, that's been great.

Jeffrey Jones  47:24  

There you go.

Cliff  47:25  

But I recently had this great experience where I went on a six day bike packing trip through the southern third of Portugal.

Michelle Hippler  47:33  

Wow.

Cliff  47:34  

Serene was going back for a trip back to the States. And I'm like, you know, I just want to go see the country that I live in now. And I bike 400ish miles, you know, in this loop around the southern part of Portugal. Went into some of the most remote towns you would ever imagine. Everyone was kind. I- my Portuguese is horrible. I could order myself a little food when I stopped at different places, but no one looked at me twice. I think, if anything, it was like the fact that I'm riding a bike in the rain was biggest- the weirdest thing to them, but the fact that I don't know that I would have felt safe doing this in the States, you know, just being able to randomly ride my bike anywhere I wanted and not expect that there may be a consequence to that. So, that's- that's kind of an experience here. Everyone's been very gracious. Everyone's been very nice. When we try to use, you know, speak Portuguese, most people will immediately say they don't speak English when you start speaking- and trying to speak Portuguese, but your Portuguese is so bad they start speaking English. So, just little wins like that that have been happening have been great.

Michelle Hippler  48:31  

That's really, really wonderful to hear. And I've heard that from other Black Americans too. I followed a few on YouTube who have moved there. And I also just want to say, I'm really sorry that that has been your experience. It really sucks. I have a friend who, a childhood friend, who, who told me the same experience, and that was the first time that I realized how different our experiences were, because I road trip all the time, and he was in Hercules on in the East Bay-

Cliff 48:57

Yep, I know exactly where that is.

Michelle Hippler  48:59

And he wanted to do a road trip up to Portland at one point, and he's like, you know, “I'm gonna go through cracker white Oregon. Like, there's no way.” He's a six foot tall Black man.

Serene  49:09  

Yeah.

Cliff  49:10  

I relate.

Michelle Hippler  49:10  

So, yeah, yeah. But I will say his- his attitude about what's happening is, like, "I'm an American and I will fight for my right to be here." He's just like-

Serene  49:21  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  49:21  

You know, he's just like, very- he bought a gun.

Serene  49:25  

Oh right? Right.

Michelle Hippler  49:26  

You know? And I'm like, "please just leave. Like, come with me." And he's like, "No." And it's like, you know? So, very different.

Serene  49:34  

Yes. I have family that's taking the same stance.

Michelle Hippler  49:36  

Yeah.

Serene  49:37  

I come from a military family, and they're like, "I'm not leaving. I was in the Air Force for 25 years, like I earned my right to be here. Even though, I didn't already have the right to be here, just from being American." Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  49:48

Right, exactly.

Jeffrey Jones  49:50  

So, you gave a glowing review of the Portuguese. I mean, I've been there as well. I think they're lovely people. Are there any quirks, and you might even say prejudices? Let me compare something. Yesterday, we were looking at property here in Spain. And we have definitely felt like these people kind of walked by and they're like, "oh, there's the foreigners looking at-" I don't exactly know. I don't want to know what they called us, but- I didn't understand all of it. But "they're looking at property in our neighborhood," and, you know, there's a little prejudice about "here come the foreigners, and they're buying property and-" and have you felt anything else in Portugal that was surprising?

Serene  50:21  

Yeah, one of the things that I think is important for everyone, and especially as a member of multiple groups that have been discriminated against, is I think it's really important to look out for people who aren't in your group, but who are also having difficult experiences. And so, one of the things that does hurt my heart a little bit, and that we've talked about is that there is definitely a bias here against people who are coming from India, Bangladesh, you know-

Cliff  50:55  

Pakistan.

Serene  50:56  

Yeah, Pakistan. You know that are easily identifiable as being Southeast Asian.

Michelle Hippler  51:00  

Moroccan too, like the Africans that are immigrants that are coming up.

Serene  51:05  

Yeah, and I haven't seen that one as much, but I can believe it. I know that- that that was definitely an issue. I have a good friend who's Dutch, and he, maybe 15 years ago, was saying that to me, as far as in Rotterdam, that he's like, "oh, we've got all these Moroccans." It's like, "okay. Easy buddy."

Michelle Hippler  51:21

Yeah.

Serene 51:24

But, you know, we- so we built a house, and we live in a small town, and our house is on a property that includes a hotel. And so there are people who work at the hotel who are Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, and there's like- little bit of whisper like, "oh yeah, they're here to do the work." Like, okay. But we've also traveled around Portugal and talked with numerous people, and have considered investing in other parts of Portugal and in other parts of Portugal. As we talked with people about certain neighborhoods, they will say things to us that we have heard in the States about either our own group or maybe Mexicans of like, "well, this is a neighborhood where a lot of Indians and those sorts live."

Michelle Hippler  52:08  

Right.

Serene  52:09  

And it's a way of saying this is not a good neighborhood. Lots of biases will come up in that way. So, that- that is- that's more than a quirk.

Michelle Hippler  52:16  

Yeah.

Serene  52:17  

It's really hard and unfortunate.

Michelle Hippler  52:18  

Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting where you're viewed as Americans first there.

Serene  52:24  

Yes.

Cliff  52:24  

Exactly.

Michelle Hippler  52:24  

Because it's like, you know, most of the world views America- well, you know, up unti-l we viewed America as, like, you know, the pinnacle, everyone wants to move to America, right?

Serene  52:34  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  52:34  

So that's really interesting. But, yeah, it's unfortunate. We are human, and we will always have our prejudices, like.

Cliff  52:39  

Yeah, it's, but it- you know, I think what I'm seeing here around that really resembles the immigration from, in America, from people from Mexico and South of the border, moving up, right? You know, it is a need for people to be able to support their families, to be able to, you know, live, and there's a lot of jobs here. There's just not people to do the work, right?

Michelle Hippler  53:01  

Right.

Cliff  53:01  

So, a lot, I think, you know- Portugal's biggest export right now are its people. You know, it's one of the lowest paying countries in the EU and so most of the people who can, leave and go to other parts of Europe because they can make more money.

Michelle Hippler  53:14  

Yeah.

Cliff  53:14  

And with that, that leaves a void and the- the work that needs to get done and things that need to get done. So, people from those countries are actually sought out to come here to work and get the jobs done. And so, very similar to like in the US, where we've got the agriculture, we've got all the manual labor jobs, you know, that we need people to do. So, we go to Mexico and South of the border to recruit the people, but then the politics of the country start to demonize these people that have been invited to say that they're the problem. And a lot of it really does come around [to] people. Some people just are not informed, and so they're ignorant of why. And then there's someone who's in power or in politics, who's trying to get your vote or your money, who now wants to use this as the reason that you don't have as much money as you want, and you know, it's so hard for you to get a job.

Michelle Hippler  53:15  

The dog whistles.

Cliff  53:19  

And so, I was seeing a parallel- exactly. I'm seeing a parallel on the nationalism that happens around those types of things, you know, in Portugal as well.

Serene  54:09  

Yeah, to your point, Jeffrey, we do hear and see protests around people driving up property prices because of Airbnb investments. And so there's a part of Lisbon. I was recently on one of those hop-on, hop-off bus tours with a friend, and, you know, just a great way to see a town, as far as I'm concerned. And we were going through a neighborhood that I really enjoy in Lisbon called the Alfama. It's really hilly. It's old-

Michelle Hippler  54:40  

I love that.

Serene  54:40  

It's- right, right? It's gorgeous, and this was the first time I had seen a new kind of graffiti. So, Lisbon is covered in graffiti.

Michelle Hippler  54:48  

Yeah.

Cliff  54:49  

[unitelligble]

Serene  54:49  

Okay, but so this was the first time I'd seen a new kind of graffiti, which was writing on the walls that said, "goodbye, Airbnb. Get out Airbnb." you know, writing of certain tech company names “stay away,” and some swear words and whatnot. And so, I think there's- there's really a rising feeling of, “you're making our life actually worse now,” and kind of unclear exactly how to vent it 100% but we are seeing more of that.

Michelle Hippler  55:19  

Yeah, the Alfama neighborhood is- when I did a tour of it when I was there, the- the gal who was doing the tour was saying, "first of all, it is the only neighborhood that survived the earthquake in 1758” or whenever it was. So, it is the true old part of Lisbon, because the new part was built in like, you know, late 17, early 1800s. But she also said that, like, "yes, all of the locals are getting pushed out, but the- also, those buildings are falling apart. And so it's the Airbnb investors who are actually keeping them alive, like redoing them.” So, it's a really hard, hard situation there, but Spain and Portugal, and they're all like suffering from this sort of over- over tourism and all of that. But before we get into housing, I want to go back to the- the point about immigration in Europe, in particular in Portugal, because what I heard was that, to your point, people are leaving. Professional people are leaving because they cannot make a living there. In particular the medical community, the nurses can make way more money in the UK, and they're needed there also. In the same way that we went to the Philippines to ask the nurses and to train them to come to America to take over, because even back in the 60s, we didn't have enough nurses. So, this gets us then to the healthcare, like when I'm thinking, “well, if all the professional local people are leaving, what does that leave?” And what are the qualifications?” And- I heard that they're over taxed. Have you a plan? Have you had to use the healthcare system? Do you have a plan like, what is- what is the situation on the ground around healthcare?

Serene  56:58  

Yeah. So, I absolutely agree with you, and I think that a lot of what we're hearing is true. I've met people who have said, "oh, I'm so sad. My son is a nurse and moved to Germany. Oh, you know, my daughter is a doctor and moved to Spain." You know, there are other places, even if they're right next door and just a little bit more money. So, that is definitely happening at the same time. You know, Cliff was talking earlier about community. And while there are a lot of people leaving in Portugal as a quickly aging country, the community here is so strong that you also do see a lot of people staying. That people are choosing, I guess, quality of life and family and community over a choice that in the States would be much clearer of, "oh, I can make more? I am leaving." You know, we're seeing this so much in the States, where people are leaving smaller towns or agrarian lifestyles, and we just don't have enough people in those areas either, and we don't have the same kind of community bonds. So all that to say, yes, some people are leaving, and the system is probably always going to be overtaxed, and it will probably get worse because of the aging population, but there are still a lot of really good, strong medical professionals here. I've been to the doctor. I went to urgent care, had a little travel stomach issue, and went. And, very badly the first time, navigated speaking in Portuguese, and ended up getting an IV for something I didn't need. But they were like, boom, boom, boom. Urgent Care super fast, tried to take care of me, wrote me a prescription for something else that I didn't need, but you know, it wasn't a opioid or an antibiotic, in which case I'll happily be like, "here you go. Take -Take this." When I went back the second time because I still had the issue, and did a better job with my Portuguese of explaining, because I knew exactly what I had. They were again, very fast. Wrote me the prescription. Did their best to communicate in sort of a mix of Portuguese and English of what I needed to do. It was great. And then you and I were just there because we've registered for the public health system, which helps a ton, yeah. So, you know, there's a little bit of medical tourism happening in Portugal also. Where people will come here and just go to urgent care, because you can get it for free. So, it is a good thing to have your residence card and/or to have registered with the health system. So, we were doing that on Friday, and, you know, showed up at nine, I think we were out of there by 10:15. Had met with- we'd each met with a nurse. We both met with a doctor. We'd both gotten a tetanus shot just to be safe, kind of what was encouraged, and got all the information we needed, as far as like mammograms and colonoscopies and all those things for over 50s. It was very efficient, and it's all there for the low, low price of, on Friday, free.99.

Cliff  1:00:02  

Yeah.

Michelle Hippler  1:00:02  

Wow.

Jeffrey Jones  1:00:03  

Nice.

Michelle Hippler  1:00:03  

Are you supplementing with private health care at all? Do they do that in Portugal?

Cliff  1:00:07  

Yes, they do. We're actually going in that- we're in that process right now, selecting private. And that's, you know, there's the- you can get it faster if you go private, in some cases, depending on what it is. But Urgent Care is always, you know, you go in and get things done. But for the most part, yeah, we're going to try and balance the flexibility, because we travel a lot, and so one of the things for us in getting private is to be covered while we travel as well. So, that's the other thing.

Michelle Hippler  1:00:31  

Right?

Cliff  1:00:31  

So, for us, it's kind of finding something that helps us while we're here. If it's something that we need to get done outside of the system, because the system may be taking too long, we want to have a backup, but we also want to make sure that when we go back to the States, if anything happens, that we don't come back bankrupt, because we have to go to the hospital there. So.

Michelle Hippler  1:00:50  

Right, right.

Jeffrey Jones  1:00:52  

Yeah. So- so your- your tax situation. You know, what- what is that like, and how are you handling it? And then we'll also, you know, do you need experts? Are you using those self-help online tools? Those exist now, you know, tell us- etll us about the complexity. And do you feel like you're paying a lot?

Serene  1:01:08  

Yeah. So, there's the sort of daily taxes that you experience here. So, you know, we have sales tax in the States. They have sales tax here. Our sales tax in the states varies depending on what state and city you're in- in Portugal, it's a flat VAT, for anyone who's unfamiliar, and it is 23%. So, it's not a small amount of sales tax. So, even if you're considering, for example, you know, we built this house and every quote that we got for, "okay, you want to add, you know, fancy bidet toilet seat to your toilet. It's x number of euros, but then you have to add 23%." So, that's an important thing, I think, if you're considering just getting settled here, that buying furniture, buying dishes, all that is cheaper here, and especially because Portugal is kind of the furniture capital of the United States a lot of things are made here. So, a lot of those foundational things are going to start out cheaper. You add in the VAT, probably still be cheaper, but it's going to be more than you might have thought it was going to be. And then as far as the actual living tax, I think our first year of owning the place where we were building- so the house wasn't done yet, we owed 40 euros. So, yes, four-zero. We weren't actually living here yet, and the house wasn't done yet, but it was just like, I think it was just a little slush of like, “oh, you bought this house and there was 40 euros that was missing from when you signed your date.” Something like that. Last year we owed zero euros. So our house finished in- and when I say last year, sorry, we just finished. So 2023 we owed zero euros, if I'm remembering correctly. And then that might actually be for 2024. Sorry, yeah. So, yes. So- so far, we have paid zero for, like, actually living-here taxes. We also because we started this process when we did. And the combination of having signed a deed in 2022, gotten our sort of local tax identification number in 2022, made it so that we were eligible for the program- it's called Non-Habitual Residency, so  NHR for short. And so, we will be mostly outside of the tax regime for the next 10 years. Well, at this point, nine years.

Jeffrey Jones  1:03:27  

Oh wow.

Serene  1:03:28  

But then after that, the taxes are very real, very significant. In Portugal right now, I think the highest tax bracket starts around 75-80k euros of income of a year. And so that could be, if you were 62 and drawing down your Social Security for two people, you could end up in the medium to high tax bracket pretty quickly.

Jeffrey Jones  1:03:53  

Okay.

Serene  1:03:54  

And s,o it is a very serious consideration.

Cliff  1:03:56  

Yeah, the one thing that what you do have, even when that does happen, is there is- there's reciprocity from Portugal and the US. So, if you pay taxes in the US, or whatever, it's credited towards your taxes here as well. And so, you don't get the double taxation. So, that is one of the benefits. But yes, the taxes here, if you get to that high bracket, it's about 45% and so we think of like what we're doing in the States, you'd have to be, you know, several hundred thousand in order to hit that tax bracket in the States. Where here, it's, you know, 70k. and so it's one of those where you have to plan. So, we've just, you know, since we've got the 10 years of the NHR, which means that we don't have to pay any taxes on income, we've really been trying to focus on, how do we figure out how to create the income and put it in the bank so that it's already there now. So that we don't have income really coming in at the end of that 10 year period. And so, right now, you know, we're doing investments, we're looking at property, we're doing different things, because it gives us that period of understanding the system to say, "okay, yes. we- we have our Social Security, you know, and that'll be taxed in the States, and whatever resident, you know, residual be taxed from there, but there'll still be funds that are available for us to use to live off of that we won't be being taxed on.” So, that's kind of how we're approaching it.

Michelle Hippler  1:05:12  

Is that scheme still in place? The 10 year tax- is it still in place for people? Yeah.

Cliff  1:05:18  

It changed. Yes, it's still in place. It's not the same. So, basically, it's a flat 10% now instead of the zero, but still very, you know. If you do decide to work, then it's a different tax rate. And you can work even on the D7 here in Portugal. So, if you come on a retirement visa and you decide to do your business remote or do a business in Portugal, you can still do that here.

Michelle Hippler 1:05:39

Okay, awesome. Well, then that takes us to- it sounds like you plan to pursue the path to citizenship, get the second passport and stay there. Will you be ending your days there in Portugal? Is that the plan?

Serene  1:05:50  

So, yes. we do plan on pursuing the path to citizenship. We actually start our language courses next month. So, I think this is actually the same in the Netherlands, where you have to pass an exam to show that you've made a good effort to learn the language. So, we have almost five years to do that. And so, that's one part of it, and then we'll have these two, you know, the second renewal of our residency, that will happen in two years. And then after that, yeah, we plan on getting our passports. We plan on becoming citizens. We will keep our citizenship in the United States. And so, that was part of why it was really important to us to make sure that we established residency someplace where we wouldn't continue to have a lot of income tax for the rest of our days. And then I think that we plan on staying here through end of life. I have looked at like senior facilities, just because I'm curious what it's like here. And, you know, feel heartened just even living where we live, there is a very large senior population here, and we see how well they're taken care of. One of the things you know, Jeffrey, earlier, you were asking about quirks, and one of the things that I think is really charming in Portugal is how they care for their old people. And examples of that are: if you are in a line anywhere, grocery store, customs at the airport, the coffee shop, you could have been in that line already for X number of minutes, customs, maybe even hours, and they will come through and do a sweep, checking for people who look old.

Jeffrey Jones  1:07:23  

Oh, nice.

Serene  1:07:24 

So, it's- it's not necessarily a compliment.

Cliff  1:07:27  

Saves you time.

Serene  1:07:28  

Yes, so.

Michelle Hippler  1:07:029  

Right.

Jeffrey Jones  1:07:30  

That's really interesting.

Serene  1:07:31  

And I think it was our second- it is right? It was our second or third that we're here. The reason why we know this from customs is for- they were having a bad day at customs, and I think that time it took us three and a half hours of standing in line? That is not the norm. So-

Cliff  1:07:46  

Never been like that again.

Serene  1:07:48  

Yeah, never been that way since. But they came through after about an hour and did just like a gray hair sweep, and we had [laughter] Right? They would have caught you Michelle, you would qualify. And because we'd been in line for so long, we were talking to this guy. He was maybe a couple years older than us, but our hair is darker, and his was gray. And they tested, you know, "senhor, do you want to come to the front of the line?" [laughs] "No!" He's like "I'm not that old! They- they did a sweep, yeah.

Michelle Hippler  1:08:18  

Wow.

Serene  1:08:19 

So, it feels like a place where you can age, and as long as- as long as you've done the work of being a part of and investing in the community, I really get the sense that it will be a place where you are taken care of, you know, you people will check after you,

Michelle Hippler  1:08:36  

Right. And as our- the- the couple that we interviewed last month, John and Tara in Italy say "there's always Switzerland too. It's not very far, you know, hard to get to Switzerland." If you're not liking-

Serene  1:08:48  

Right.

Cliff  1:08:48  

There ya go.

Michelle Hippler  1:08:48  

-what's happening.

Serene  1:08:49  

Just take care of things.

Jeffrey Jones  1:08:50  

That's right.

Serene  1:08:53  

Yes, yes. But we're making friends with locals who have young children, so hopefully by the time we're old, we'll be Auntie/Uncle status and-

Jeffrey Jones  1:09:01  

Ah, that's nice. Yeah, there you go.

Serene  1:09:03  

-they'll help look after us.

Michelle Hippler  1:09:05  

Well, it has been wonderful chatting with you, as evidenced by how long we chatted.

Jeffrey Jones  1:09:10  

Yes, it's been a great chat.

Serene  1:09:12  

It was lovely.

Michelle Hippler  1:09:12  

So, thank you so much for giving us your time and sharing your expertise as expats in Portugal. It's been really wonderful.

Serene  1:09:20  

It was our pleasure.

Cliff  1:09:21  

Thank you.

Serene  1:09:22  

Yeah, thank you for inviting us.