Experts & Expats
The Experts & Expats podcast covers the critical aspects of moving to Europe, featuring candid stories from immigration experts and American expats who have already made the move. Hosted by the Living Abroad Academy.
Experts & Expats
The Expat Experience: An American Entrepreneur in Spain
In this episode we chat with Mark, a forward-thinking innovator by trade and lifelong traveler who walks us through his journey from California to Spain. We learn how he navigated the shift from running a business in the U.S. to doing the same in Europe. If you’re curious about entrepreneurship abroad, especially in Spain, this episode is packed with insights, inspiration, and honest lessons from someone who's doing it.
Learn more about how The Living Abroad Academy informs and accelerates moves to Europe for Americans: www.livingabroadacademy.com
Jeffrey Jones 00:09
Welcome to the Experts and Expats Podcast. I'm Jeffrey Jones,
Michelle Hippler 00:13
and I'm Michelle Hippler. We're co-founders of the Living Abroad Academy. We focus on the information Americans need to plan a move to Europe on a faster timeline than the one we experienced
Jeffrey Jones 00:23
We cover all the best visas to explore, along with financial and social considerations that will help you determine what country-
Michelle Hippler 00:29
or countries!
Jeffrey Jones 00:30
Right, or countries might be the right fit for you and your circumstances.
Michelle Hippler 00:34
Absolutely, a country might look great on paper, but not turn out to be what you expected. So we talk to expats about their experiences and experts about their particular expertise in their country.
Jeffrey Jones 00:46
All with a goal to get you as much information as possible to make an informed decision. Today, we have Mark with us. Mark has family roots in Europe, and more recently, he relocated to Barcelona, Spain from the San Francisco Bay area of California. So, I wanted to share Mark and I know each other. We worked together many years back in San Francisco. We were in the same office during the internet boom, and in that time we discovered that, of course, we not only both had an interest in technology and the internet, but also in living in Spain and finding a way to move to Barcelona. Our consulting firm had offices all over the world, but of course, we had our eye on that office in Barcelona. So as history tells the dot com crash happened and those dreams were dashed, but thankfully, only temporarily, as you'll hear today. Mark succeeded in moving to Barcelona in recent years, and I just did as well.
Mark 01:33
I still have the t-shirt from the Barcelona office.
Jeffrey Jones 01:35
Oh, really? Oh, wow.
Mark 01:37
Yeah, it's bright orange. I met Enrique Young Bauer, the MD, years ago here. So yeah,
Jeffrey Jones 01:42
Oh, well, he still has t-shirts, and that company was Icon Media Lab. Don't think that still exists.
Mark 01:47
Good times.
Jeffrey Jones 01:49
Yeah, little bit of history.
Michelle Hippler 01:51
Well, I'm just now meeting Mark for the first time. I did meet his lovely wife when she was still his fiance. So, congratulations on your marriage!
Mark 02:00
Thank you.
Michelle Hippler 02:00
And welcome to Experts andExpats. Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 02:03
Welcome.
Michelle Hippler 02:03
He's waving his ring for everyone to see.
Jeffrey Jones 02:07
Welcome Mark.
Michelle Hippler 02:08
Yeah, welcome. So, Spain continues to be one of the top destinations for American expats. And Mark, we're really interested in learning the different facets of your expat experience from selecting the country and the city, which sounds like maybe decades you had your eye on it, but also then to the moving to and experiencing the culture, and then establishing and running a local business there in Barcelona. So, let's just jump into our questions. Tell us about your personal background and your current life in Barcelona.
Mark 02:38
Yeah, sure. So as Jeffrey said, I started out moving around a lot. By that, I mean, I was born in Germany, and eight days later I was on a plane to Libya and then to Greece, where I was a toddler. And think that kind of set me up for a life of travel and, you know, international- just interest. Yeah. So then I spent most of my growing up years in the United States. I moved to Sweden when I was- well I studied there for a year, when- right after undergrad, and then came back to the US. Worked at uh- in management consulting at Accenture for two years, and then got an opportunity to move back to Sweden. So I lived there for about six years in total. And then that's when I joined this company that Jeffrey was mentioning before. So, this is when the dot com boom was just starting, and- well, what they wanted me to do, basically, was they had an office in San Francisco, and they wanted me to go and run that office. So, that's why I moved to San Francisco in 1997 and I was there until I was working here part time, until about 2020 and then pandemic hit, and I happened to be here and thought it would last a couple weeks, and it wouldn't, you know, I would just ride it out, and it ended up being the rest of the year.
Michelle Hippler 03:42
So, how long have you lived totally in Barcelona then, or in Spain?
Mark 03:46
So, it's, you know, about five years since the pandemic. So, that's- this has been my, you know, my main base since then. There were two years before that where I was, you know, traveling back and forth. I'd be here a couple weeks a month, and expected that to continue forever, but the world had other plans.
Jeffrey Jones 04:00
So, Mark, what was your- your "why?" Like, why did you choose to leave the US and pick the city and the country that you did?
Mark 04:06
Yeah, it's pretty easy. It's the aforementioned fiancee. So, she's lived here for about 25 years. She lived in the US before that- was born in Hong Kong. So, like I said, we were seeing each other- long distance relationship, and then, you know, COVID came along, and it became an extremely short distance, you know, from 1000s of kilometers to a few meters, relationship for a long time.
Michelle Hippler 04:27
So why don't you tell us and how did you do it? What visa did you get? Did you do it yourself? Did you have help?
Mark 04:33
Yeah, so I had already applied for an entrepreneur visa to be able to come and go as much as I wanted. And so COVID actually extended that whole process, not as much as you'd expect, but a little bit. So I was in kind of a gray zone, honestly, during the pandemic. And I'm not sure what status I had there, but at any rate, yeah, I applied for an entrepreneur's visa. I had- I started my own company in 2018 and specifically to do consulting in different places around the world. And. We essentially just started, like a new version of that company, with my co-founder, who's also the fiancee, and we've just been here, growing since then.
Michelle Hippler 05:09
Tell me where- where was your consultancy in 2018 based, and then, did you do that in Spain then? Or did you wait?
Mark 05:15
Um, no, it's- I still actually have that company. So there are certain advantages, I guess you could say for having a company in the US, and different advantages for having one in Spain, and they really serve different purposes for us. So, not to get too much into the minutia of that, but I just never closed it down. And sometimes, if we have a US client and they want to just deal in dollars and things like that, then it's just a little bit easier.
Michelle Hippler 05:38
So, the company that you started with- with Cecilia, is the one that's based in Spain?
Mark 05:43
Correct.
Michelle Hippler 05:44
Or do you have it- It is based in Spain? So, you have one company in each country?
Mark 05:48
Yeah, exactly. They have the same name. And, you know, we- they- we share a lot of work and clients and IP and things like that. Obviously cause-
Michelle Hippler 05:55
Gothca.
Mark 05:55
It's essentially the same company, just with a strange ownership structure, which- this isn't an accounting podcast, but at some point, you know, we- we should probably look into: is that a really wise thing to do? But- but that's how it is, right now.
Michelle Hippler 06:10
Right.
Jeffrey Jones 06:10
International Business is certainly tricky. I'm doing it too. You're much farther along than me. I'm like, my gosh, so we might get into that later. But- So how long did your visa process take from the start to finish? And did you have any snags along the way?
Mark 06:20
Yeah, the first one. So, I've had- definitely had snags, and I have scars to show for this. So, the first one went really well. It went very quickly. I think it was about 90 days or something like that. But again, this was right around the time COVID was happening, so I don't remember all the details, but hopefully nobody will have to deal with that again. I did use a lawyer, one that was known and recommended by people I knew here, and I would really recommend that when it was time to renew that at that time, we had company lawyers. They took care of it again. It was a pretty, you know, frictionless process. I think the cost was, I'm gonna say, roughly 3,000 euros or something like that. And, you know, the biggest hassle then is you just have to get all this paperwork that you might not- like you have to find your college diploma and things like that. So, but pretty- pretty straightforward stuff. Then when it came time to renew it again, we did try and DIY it, and that basically led to a whole bunch of like- stuff I would have never imagined. It had to do with where's your apartment, and this and that and the other thing. At that point we'd been married, so we basically said, “let's just skip the entrepreneur visa and Cece is a Spanish citizen so let's just go the marriage route instead.” So, different set of paperwork, you have to get all your things apostilled, which is basically like officially translated, and I don't know, blessed in some way, and it costs, you know, a lot of money. At least for somebody just signing off on a document. But yeah, so expect that it's- it's going to be like a lot of processes in the US would be, where it's a lot more hassle than it needs to be, but you just kind of have to go with the flow. Everybody else has done this. You can do it too. It's going to be fine.
Jeffrey Jones 07:51
Your attorney experience was similar to mine. I did spend a number of 1000s of dollars, but certainly worth it. They really made the gears turn at certain points where it would have ground to a halt. So-
Mark 08:02
Yeah, yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 08:02
So, thank goodness for that.
Michelle Hippler 08:04
I have a follow up. So you've now experienced two- two visa processes. Would you say they were equally like difficult? Or?
Mark 08:14
I think the- you can get a lawyer to help you with the entrepreneur visa process, and it's pretty straightforward. We are using a lawyer for the second visa process just to help again, because we messed up one time, and we're like, "not doing that again." So if you're getting married to a Spaniard, or you are married to a Spaniard, it's, again, it's pretty straightforward. It's still going to be like, again, think of the types of hassles you'd find in any country with bureaucracies. It's not like, well, I'll give us a different example of something that's very smooth. You can go to the ATM with a barcode and pay your taxes like they send you a piece of paper- a PDF. You printed it out. It's got a barcode on it. Walk up to an ATM and you just take it straight out of your account. So that's really frictionless. So it's really funny, right? They don't waste any time getting your money on the tech side. Everything else is going to take a while.
Michelle Hippler 09:01
Right. That's a good point. I have another follow up. Are you doing citizenship? Are you going through marriage or just resident?
Mark 09:08
I'm not really thinking of that right now. I just like- I'm fine just being resident. Longer term, you know, maybe that would be an option. Yeah, I've thought about it, but again, it's got enough going on right now.
Michelle Hippler 09:18
Yeah, and Spain doesn't have dual citizenship, so you would have to renounce.
Mark 09:23
No.
Michelle Hippler 09:24
No?
Mark 09:24
You know, a lot of countries don't have dual citizenship, but they don't really follow up on it either. So, like I said, I haven't thought about that really in my case, but I don't see a reason right now to renounce US citizenship, if- if that were to be an option. But, yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 09:37
It's funny, people have told me that too, and I have a hard time, like, well, they probably won't check. I don't have the personality like, well, if they do check, I'm going to be in trouble.
Mark 09:46
Yeah, no. I know lots and lots of people that are in that situation. They have two passports, and they just show the right one when they go through the right customs thing. But yeah, that’s a- not a pertinent question for me right now. Maybe ask me again in five years, or something like that.
Jeffrey Jones 09:58
Okay, so Mark, what has been your general experience of being a foreigner? And, you know, there's a- it changes right from when you were, I should say, What has been your general experience of being a foreigner in Spain? Like, you know, what was it like in the first months to a year to longer? It changes, right? It really does change.
Mark 10:15
Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, a lot of my interface with Spain has been through work and then through my wife's friends. So, I think that made a huge difference in my ability to just be functional, to have a social life from the get-go and things like that. So, I've never had to, like, look for expat social groups or local social groups or anything like that. So, I think it's it's a little bit different if you're coming here on your own or as a couple that doesn't have those connections, I would be completely unable to function in, at least in my business locally, without having, well, with- with the very, very small network that I came here with.
Jeffrey Jones 10:52
So, it sounds like you've always been interested in Spain. Was there any other country that you thought maybe I'll go back- like Sweden?
Mark 10:57
Yeah, you know, yeah. I have to say, it's funny you say that because I actually was more, like, actively not interested in Spain. I've never really sort of clicked with, you know, Southern European culture, and I've always thought it was a bit messy and emotional and, you know, and stuff like that. So, I said I was born in Germany. I was also German American. So, sort of grew up in a house where voices were very seldom raised. And, you know, I- when I lived in Sweden, also famously quiet, you know, they- the joke was, you know, they didn't have a lockdown in Sweden. And the joke was, because they already socially distanced. They didn't need to. They don't talk anyway. So, yeah. So, I had always really thought that that was, you know, I was aligned a lot more with that, and I have to say, it hadn't been for my relationship, I wouldn't be here. That said, I was considering moving to Denmark. That was another place on my- my radar. I have a lot of friends there, and a lot of, you know, I've worked with a lot of clients there. And, yeah, it's just something I'm, you know, it's an area I'm familiar with, and in a lot of ways I like better than Sweden. Not every way, but in a lot. So, that was my sort of planning assumption. And then, you know, again, this relationship kind of kicked off, and I ended up here, and I would not choose any of those other places again now, knowing what I know. They're lovely, and I go visit a lot. I still have family in Sweden and obviously a lot of friends, but for overall quality of life and everything, this is where I'm happy to stay.
Michelle Hippler 12:19
Well, I'm very familiar with that Swedish way, because they- they were the original settlers of Seattle, and that- that attitude has stuck. Seattle is very, very self-isolating,
Mark 12:30
Yeah, well, and they probably went there because it's the same weather. You know, it's-
Michelle Hippler 12:33
Yes.
Mark 12:34
I do think, I mean, I'm kind of joking, but I think also, like, you can see Spaniards coming to Texas and California going like this, looks like the place we left. We know how to make a house. We know how to work with these materials and things like that. So, yeah,
Michelle Hippler 12:47
Germans and Belgian is my background came to Central Illinois for the farmland.
Mark 12:53
Yeah, exactly like-
Michelle Hippler 12:54
Very similar.
Mark 12:54
It's like Bavaria or wherever.
Michelle Hippler 12:56
Right.
Mark 12:57
Feels very much at home, you know? Yeah, Spaniards would probably not last one winter in Minnesota.
Michelle Hippler 13:03
Yes, right. How are you feeling about the hot topics that are happening in Spain right now? For example, do you feel there are too many foreign visitors or residents? Have you felt the stress personally from locals about invading their country?
Mark 13:19
Yeah, it's- it's funny. One- I've reflected on a lot of these local things. When I moved here, there were a lot more visible clashes between like the Catalonian separatists and independence people and the Madrid government and so on. But I can have opinions about that, but nobody cares at all what I would think, right? And I think for a lot of these questions, it's kind of the same, like I can think something, but ultimately I'm not even allowed to, you know, have a say in it. I shouldn't say, Well, I am not allowed, literally. So, so I have opinions about it, but I don't, it doesn't affect me. I have never felt any, certainly, nothing like hostility at all towards me personally. And I think my impression, for what that's worth, is that it's not so much about foreign like expats moving here to stay, it's a lot about very badly behaved tourists. Mostly from other parts of Europe, who are, you know, coming down here from England, to have a weekend of a, you know, a bachelor party, and just behaving really badly. And I have seen some- I've even intervened in some places where I see like a group of eight guys from Belgium, sorry, but, you know, just really harassing women and making a mess in the bars and stuff like that. So.
Michelle Hippler 14:27
Wow. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the distinction, because it is the tourism, the over-tourism, that has really hurt the housing there too, which is the big- probably the biggest topic of concern,
Mark 14:42
Like, obviously, with Airbnb and temporary rentals, that's definitely changed the housing market here a lot. And you know, the local owners, anyway, have benefited from that. So, the tension is a lot of times, between property owners and property renters, who are local and the choices that they're making. And every time a new rule comes out about how long you can put your building on for rental or something, the developers find a way around that. So, now we see these buildings where it's 11 month rentals. You have an entire sky-, you know, not skyscraper, but like, let's say, a five or eight story building full of empty apartments that's really only meant to be rented out to people on an 11 month basis. So, again, that's one of those local issues where I don't feel like- I mean, I can have an opinion, but that's- that's just how, you know, a lot of cities have to deal with these things.
Michelle Hippler 15:26
You know, that's a really good point, because the cause is really on the landlords. Like, you can't blame the tourists for wanting to come to see this beautiful city, right? It's not unlike the sort of misdirected anger about the tipping situation, right? Like, you don't blame the customer for not tipping you, blame your boss for not paying you a livable wage.
Mark 15:46
Yeah, it's interesting to see tipping culture, like, show up here too, and it's- it's interesting because it's almost always with one of the US made devices. Like Square is like a point of sale device, and it always asks if you want to provide a tip like, "wait, I just left that." But going back to, like, the tourism, there's also, and this is something I've talked with locals and expats who've lived here a long time about is: there's desirable tourism, which is like, "hey, I want to come and, like, experience the nice restaurants and architecture and things like that." And then there's the people who are just here, like a Vegas trip, basically, or Miami trip, or a lot, you know, New Orleans. Where they really just want to come and get drunk and-
Michelle Hippler 16:26
Yeah.
Mark 16:26
And, you know, behave pretty badly. So, even that has its good sides, right? Provides a lot of money to the economy. But I think if the, you know, if locals and the people here had their druthers, they would focus more on that desirable tourism and less on the party animals.
Jeffrey Jones 16:43
I think Barcelona marketed themselves that way and did a great job for a long time. Come here, it's like Vegas, right? Come here, have a great time. We're set up for it. Go home. You know, nobody knows. whatever, so, you know.
Mark 16:53
RIght, right.
Jeffrey Jones 16:54
And believe me, I've had those people as neighbors in Airbnbs. So, yeah, it's definitely here.
Michelle Hippler 16:58
And I remember- I can't remember if it was Spain. It was one of the countries where that was all happening, where the hen parties and the, I don't know what they call the the male parties, but they were actually-
Mark 17:08
Stag.
Michelle Hippler 17:08
Actively advertising in the UK to not come because you will be- which country was that? Jeffrey, do you remember they were saying you will be arrested? They show a picture-
Mark 17:19
I know Amsterdam had some of that because people- drug tourism and things.
Michelle Hippler 17:24
Yeah, right.
Mark 17:25
But it's actually a very similar situation to that, where you have people who are coming for, you know, kind of the wrong reasons, at least from certain people's perspective. But again, there's a there's a- there's a business- a lot of businesses depend on that. There are cruise ships that come in. There's, you know, there's lots of people visiting. And overall, it's great to live in a city that so many people want to come visit.
Michelle Hippler 17:44
Yeah, yeah.
Mark 17:45
I remember the Rambla from the 90s being here, and it was, there were locals there. And, you know, it has completely changed now. And locals even say we gave up the Rambla because, you know, it's just too many tourists on it. And it's- it's, you know, but there's good and bad to it. Like you say, like, it's been great for the economy, but the locals have given something up.
Mark 18:01
And well, you know, you have to also go back to, like, the 90s and the Olympics that were held here were really a turning point for not just Barcelona, but for Spain in terms of economic growth and things like that. There's always been, like, a strong design industry here, and I think that's related to the architectural, you know, just culture that's like part of the- I don't know it's what, you know, I was gonna say what wine is to France, but wine is important here too, but it's such a- something that people really appreciate. And- and it’s also something [that] makes the city really beautiful, because people just expect that if you're going to build a building, it's not going to look- you know, it has certain standards in aesthetic, as well as quality.
Michelle Hippler 18:41
Yeah. So, let's shift to what it's like doing business there in Spain as compared to the US. You know, we know that you- you have the business still in the US, you have one in Spain. So what has been your experience on the business front?
Mark 18:58
Yeah, so again, the US business is essentially just there, because I haven't shut it down. We don't- don't really use it for- for much of anything. But the Spanish business- so starting the Spanish business here also is a lot of- a lot of work, compared to, you know, the experience in the US. One of the most interesting things, I thought, was, you know, anything you do with related to a business or a contract, or if you're buying a house is the notary system here. So, in the US, you go to a notary and you pay them, whatever, 10 or 20 bucks, and they put a stamp on something, and they write in their book, and it's- you're- you're done in 10 minutes. And here it's like, I don't know what I would compare it to, because the notaries have the nicest offices. The doors are two stories tall. You open it like you're going into, you know, some mansion or some castle, and everyone's very formal. And I think this has to do a little bit with, again, sort of the rule of law and how- how that just culturally plays out in different countries. So, what the notary does is they just read the contract aloud to all the people in the room, so you can't say, "oh, I didn't read that part, or I didn't know that." And then you sign it with a very fancy pen, and then you go out, and this costs like $300 or something, and takes an hour, and it takes a week to book because they're very busy and things like that. So, that that type of process is- is really unique here. And I mean, I'm used to it now, but- but you have to, you have to do it a lot when you're setting up a business and entering into contracts and things like that.
Michelle Hippler 20:20
Cool. And so I know you said the tax situation could be a whole- probably episode, but what has been, just like, overview of what has been your experience of the tax process compared to the US?
Mark 20:32
Well, so again, very fortunate there that my wife has founded four businesses before this one that we founded together. So, she has an accountant, she has a lawyer, she has all those people, and I honestly never think about it. They take care of it all. They file both my US and my Spanish taxes and the corporate thing, and so it's- it's all pretty straightforward for me. I would highly recommend anybody who's moving here is: do that right away. Find a good accountant and a good lawyer, because you will make so many mistakes and it will just take so much of your time to even understand legal Spanish that you should- don't waste your time. Just go find a good lawyer and a good accountant. And sometimes they're the same thing actually. And that's also interesting, I haven't seen that in the US before, but you can find firms that do both accounting and law together.
Jeffrey Jones 21:18
That's what I'm doing now. Yeah, it's the same company.
Michelle Hippler 21:20
Cool.
Jeffrey Jones 21:21
So, you know Barcelona is- many people know this, I don't think a lot of Americans know that Barcelona is a big innovation capital for Europe and really the world. And people say it's,” oh, it's the startup capital of Europe. It's the innovation capital of Europe. It's this, and that,” right? There's all these things that are this. So I think it's a perfect spot. I know more about your business. I think it's a perfect spot for what you're doing. I don't know about Denmark and other countries you were considering, but Barcelona seems like a great fit. Could you share a bit more with our listeners about your business or businesses?
Mark 21:49
Yeah, so we help companies and sometimes government agencies, with long-term innovation. So normally, companies have, like, a pretty short-term focus. It's like next quarter, next three years, but they still have some things that they need to be aware of and work on that are out past that horizon. So like, just to take, like, autonomous vehicles right now, you see different cities around the world where they're starting to have these fleets driving it's- it's still pretty early stage, but I was working on that in like 2012 or 2013. So, the things we're looking at right now, like- or another one is AI. So, that was also started working on that in 2016 and a lot of these like agents, you know, we were developing those for clients three, well, five years, well, four years ago. So, that's our job is to basically look at like what's over the horizon that they would normally see, and help them understand that, make a business case for or against going into it, and if they want to go into it, then we actually build prototypes. So, we have- we build robots, we make food, we- we sew, we solder, we, you know, 3D print things. We- we make that first example of that new product or service.
Jeffrey Jones 22:51
That's really interesting. And that- that prototype you build, they take it into their company, and is that a feedback mechanism, or what is it?
Mark 22:57
Yeah, so we sometimes say it's easier to make a prototype than a presentation. You know, if, you know, if you think about how much time people put making, you know, PowerPoint slides and yet another graph and more text and a picture of something, and you could spend those hours just making the thing, at least to a first approximation, and then- then people have to react to it. I mean, we hear so many times like, you know, we spent $4 million with Accenture and two years, and all we got was a bunch of slides, and like, you guys did this in six weeks or six months,
Michelle Hippler 23:25
Yeah. Yeahn that's true.
Jeffrey Jones 23:26
I was in your office the other day, and you whipped out this device that projected a hologram. I felt like I was in Star Wars, but, you know, it's like, there's so many interesting things happening in your space. We were talking earlier about connecting with the community, and you relayed that, you know, you're thankful for the connections you have your relationship, has it been easy to find skilled employees for your team?
Mark 23:44
Yeah, I have to say that's one of the biggest reasons to start a company here, is you get really, really good talent, not just from Spain, but from all over the world. And you know, because the cost of living is so low, people don't need to- you don't need to pay a data scientist 200k a year for them to sort of get by like you would in San Francisco. And there's also, I think, a really- there's a really important factor that not a lot of people consider, and that is that- so when you're in an expat community, both for hiring and just socially, is all of those people have taken a courageous leap to move to another place and start from scratch. And that right there is just that- that's a huge filtering mechanism. So you've already got people that are very ambitious, and then when they get there, they can't go visit their parents on the weekend, they don't have friends from high school that they need to catch up with and stuff like that. So you only have each other, and you end up building these, I think, much stronger and more dynamic social groups, because everybody's on an adventure. And so it's- it's a- I kind of got addicted to that the first time I moved to Sweden. So, I've always gravitated towards those expat communities throughout my life, actually. So- so, yeah, I think that's a really big benefit of moving here, is it will actually make you better in ways that staying where you were and working harder won't.
Jeffrey Jones 24:56
And that's a certain mindset, we talk about that at the Living Abroad Academy, you have to have a certain mindset to successfully move internationally. And obviously these people all have that, or they've developed it right as they've moved,
Mark 25:07
Yeah, I think you- you develop it the hard way, like, "I love failing so much," and, "oh, I said another bad word by accident," and I bought, you know, sunscreen instead of toothpaste. And, you know, those- those types of little mistakes that you remember, and yeah, and they end up being great stories
Jeffrey Jones 25:23
And your teeth- your teeth look great, and they have a tan, so that's nice.
Mark 25:27
Right.
[Music]
Jeffrey Jones 25:28
Hey, there just a reminder that you can learn more about moving to Europe at livingabroadacademy.com
Michelle Hippler 25:37
Sign up for our newsletter and stay up to date on our latest podcasts, events and more.
Jeffrey Jones 25:42
You can also submit questions and ideas for future podcasts on the website.
Michelle Hippler 25:46
We appreciate you being a part of our community. Thanks again for joining us.
Jeffrey Jones 25:51
And now back to the show.
Michelle Hippler 25:56
So, which of the local languages do you speak? They speak two in Barcelona.
Mark 26:01
Yeah, I speak Spanish pretty poorly. I mean I can get by in normal conversations. I should- I don't know if there's an objective scale for this, but I mean, a lot of Americans go like, "yeah, I'm great at Spanish," and they're not. I'm, you know, I can have a conversation on the phone if the Amazon guy is looking for me, like, a few minutes ago, or things like that. But if there's, you know, a bunch of Spanish people sitting around, mumbling about the soccer game, or there's other types of like- I get along well in business conversations, but not more cultural things. As for Catalan- so I learned French in high school, and Spanish, I say learned I, you know, it's one year. But until recently, I would have said I spoke better French than Spanish, and so even though living here for whatever reason, that was just easier for me. In Catalan, if you just know those two languages, you never even heard of Catalan, you can look at it and go like, "oh, I can get, you know what? 50, 70% of this just by inferring from those two languages." It's not a mix of the two. It's its own language. It's- I think now I'd say it's closer to Italian. But so I've, you know, I've got, like, Catalan on Duolingo, I've got a Catalan book. And most people here don't expect even other, you know, other locals, to speak Catalan necessarily. There's a lot of Spanish speaking people here. For a lot of kids, if their parents speak Spanish at home, they think, you know, learning Catalan in school is a huge bore. They think everything is a huge bore, but, you know, teenagers. But- but, yeah, so you can definitely get by without Catalan, but you just get a lot of appreciation if you can speak a little bit. If you can actually speak it well, you will, you'll be treated extremely well. And it's not very hard to learn. If you know Spanish, you can easily pick it up. In fact, Catalan on Duolingo you have to learn through Spanish. You can't learn it through English.
Jeffrey Jones 27:42
One thing I've heard is that it's hard to break into the local crowd to be friends if you don't speak Catalan or really good Spanish. Have you felt that? Or?
Mark 27:50
Yeah. I think that's true anywhere. I mean, when I lived in Sweden, you know, 90%- or yeah, 95% of the population can hold a conversation in English. It's more like 30% here. And that's across Spain, in Barcelona, it's much higher. But even living there where everybody spoke English, well, you're going to interrupt their normal conversation, the way they talk with each other, if they're having to jump into another language for you. So, yeah, I would say definitely take the time to immerse yourself and get as good as you can.
Michelle Hippler 28:18
I know that I've experienced when I've been there that I can totally get by with no Spanish at all-
Mark 28:23
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Hippler 28:24
Because there's so many people in the service industry speak English. But how is it with- in the business world there?
Mark 28:32
You know, again, you- I'd say everybody in business, probably across Spain, at every- at a certain level of business speaks English. Sometimes it's more of a struggle for them, though, and so if they're having a conversation, at, let's say, at a business mixer in Spanish, you don't want to go in and barge in and make them start speaking English. So, I think at the same time, you're not going to learn Spanish, well, if you don't have some of those conversations, but you need to, basically, I think, give yourself the time and space. I had a tutor for a while. I've got, you know, books, and I listen to podcasts and do things like that. Here in our office, about half the people, I think, are native Spanish speakers, not all from Spain, some from South America and other places. And, you know, some days we'll say, "okay, we're just going to speak Spanish today," and that's helpful. But then if it gets to be like an important conversation where speed is of the essence, or, you know, then we switch back to English.
Michelle Hippler 29:21
So, getting used to a new culture comes with a lot of highs and lows. Can you tell us what was, you know, an experience that you had that completely validated: yes, I'm in the right place?
Mark 29:31
Well, lots of those, like, almost every day, to be honest. The- like walking to work and it's- the weather's perfect, and, like, you get this amazing croissant and coffee for two or three euros. I mean, that- that gets reinforced on a daily basis. I'm trying to think of any... Yeah, it's just those times you go for a hike, or you- you know, you- you're at a party, and you have so many friends, and just those- those types of things, the same as they would be in any place. I can't think of anything that's specifically Spanish, or specifically Barcelona, besides, just again the sort of natural beauty and architecture and the ocean and things like that that you get here. I wouldn't say I've had any culturally related lows either. I mean I have some, again, funny incidents. Like one of the really funny things, at least funny if you or not from here, is that people will sit at a cafe, even though there's a line of people waiting to sit, they will just sit there and not, you know, their coffee is done. They're not going anywhere, and nobody says anything to them. And one time, I was at a museum, and it was absolutely packed cause it was pouring outside. So we had to, like, rush into the cafe, and I'm sitting there like- or standing, I should say, with a tray full of stuff waiting for Cece to come. All the tables are full, and there's this elderly couple that was doing that, like they're sitting on the couch. Their coffee has been, you know, gone for a long time, and they're literally just sitting looking at their phones like teenagers. And I was like, "excuse me, would you mind if I sit down here?" And I could tell that it was not okay. And I was like, "sorry, I'll just go stand over here and wait for something else." And there was room at the table. It wasn't like I was asking to take their places. And Cece came, and we did find a place, and we sat down. And a few minutes later, the- this elderly gentleman comes over and said "mal educado." You're very badly- you're very rude. The word in Spanish, mal educado, means badly, sounds like badly educated, but it basically means you're rude. And I was like, "so sorry. Didn't mean it. Pardon my Spanish." You know, and it's not like it got into a fist fight. Actually, there was another thing I did get- somebody tried to take my phone one time. That was another like, sort of- Barcelona pickpocketing is rampant. So, you know, things like that have happened in other places too. But in this case, the guy was on a bike. I was walking home, looking at my phone. Shouldn't have been doing that, but he just kind of sped by me and took the phone. I shouldn't say sped he wasn't- he was going slow enough that I could actually push him over and get my phone back. So, yeah, there's- those are little annoyances. Like I always habitually sit with my- my backpack or my bag on my knee between my legs when I'm at a table, so if it's on the back of the chair, probably going to be gone. So yeah, there's little things like that. But it reminds me a little bit of like in California you're always looking for where's the exit if there's an earthquake, or where could I- what could I get under? Where's the door frame? So, you just- you're just more aware of certain things.
Jeffrey Jones 29:32
Mark, I didn't mean to laugh so much, but that- we call those people, table squatters. That they're- they're on the table, they've had the smallest coffee they can find, like a little cortada. You can tell it's totally dried up, like you can tell they drank that an hour ago. They're staring at their phone, and you're like, "my gosh, I'd like to sit there." But-
Mark 29:32
Yeah, yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 29:32
But you know the waiters aren't going to pressure them, because they're paid a living wage, and they don't care. Okay, they're sitting there, but here in the US, they might get some pressure to move on.
Mark 29:32
For sure. Yeah, they bring you your bill and they expect you to pay it and leave.
Jeffrey Jones 29:32
Exactly.
Mark 29:32
And, yeah, I mean, it's actually nice, right?
Jeffrey Jones 29:32
Yeah.
Mark 29:32
People are not in a hurry. Enjoy your- your time, and I'll enjoy mine.
Jeffrey Jones 29:32
Exactly.
Mark 29:32
But I think you have to, again not from my own experience I think I've lived enough places that you take the customs where you come. There's a phrase for that. And yeah, if that's how they're doing things, then that's not rude to them. So, don't worry about it. Just- just chill out and enjoy your expat experience.
Jeffrey Jones 29:32
So, Mark, how often do you travel back to the US, and is it for business? Is there family or friends?
Mark 30:45
Like I said, when I first was coming here, I was more like I would be coming here. I was in the US, and that was pretty frequent, like it- like I said, once a month I would be here, and I had other trips in between, so I traveled quite a lot. Really, the only thing pulling me back to the US right now is my parents. So, I try and see them as much as I can, but I don't really have other reasons, except when there's a conference or something like that. All my kids are in college, so there's no real one place to go to see them. Two of them are in Sweden, actually in college, but one is in California. But, yeah, that's- not a lot, I guess is the answer.
Jeffrey Jones 33:48
Have you been traveling much lately? In and out of the US? Because a lot of people say that, you know, they're concerned about that process, and it's gotten choppy.
Mark 33:56
Yeah. So, last year I traveled a lot. I was actually not a resident of Spain last year due at least somewhat to the visa issues that I mentioned. So, I needed to be out of the country and enough time to not overstay a visa and get in trouble or overstay the lack of a visa. So, I have been back to the US a few times. The actual going in and out, it is a little bit more stressful, I think, just because of the news you hear and things like that. I've never personally had that issue, but I definitely have heard from other people, both Americans and non-Americans, who have, and that's not what's keeping me from going back more often. I don't need to, and so it's all good.
Michelle Hippler 34:33
Yeah, I just came back from Mexico, and I got pulled aside. I have Global Entry, and I got pulled aside to hand- to wait behind a guy that had a packet of paper for customs to look at. I don't know why I got pulled over, but.
Mark 34:45
Yeah. There was a time when I was doing that back and forth so often, and I would get pulled over, like, get the dreaded 4 S's on your- your boarding card. That means, like, oh, you get the special inspection, and it's going to take you another 20 minutes. And I would get that every single time. And I mean, I don't know if I was just like the- the opposite of a DEI hire. "Let's get a white guy in here, because we want to stop all these other people. We need to make it look not racist." But whatever. It hasn't happened for a while.
Michelle Hippler 35:13
Well, let's move on to healthcare. That's always a concern for Americans. What has been your experience there in Spain with healthcare?
Mark 35:20
I've had a phenomenal experience. I'd say that's one of the best, like, not unexpected, but like, underappreciated advantages of- of Spain, for sure. Spain is even by European standards, has a good health care system and yeah. So like, when I need to make an appointment, I have a little app. I go choose the doctor I want, if they- if I want somebody who speaks English, I can choose that. You know, you can basically- it's super simple. I had Kaiser Permanente in the US, and it was really similar to that, where it's like a managed system, and it's just less, I don't want to say mercenary. You know, it's just like, "oh, you're sick. Let's fix you." The best example of where the US bureaucracy is just absolutely aggravating is around health care and insurance and filing papers and all that other kind of stuff. Here you just go in, you get it done, and it costs, I think- I think I pay like $60 a month or something for private health care.
Jeffrey Jones 36:12
I was going to ask is it private or public. So, okay.
Mark 36:14
Yeah. So the- one of the things I think you have to have if you're looking for a visa is private health care, which most people looking that sounds really daunting, but like I said, I think it's 60 bucks a month, and that's less than like a copay in the US.,
Jeffrey Jones 36:28
And one note that's no longer required.
Mark 36:31
Oh, good okay.
Jeffrey Jones 36:32
They took- they took that away.
Mark 36:34
Well, that said I would still- I haven't, again I haven't used the public health care system here except to get COVID shots, which was also very easy by the way. There's another app called CatSalut, which does the public things, but yeah, the private healthcare system costs almost nothing, and even if it's, I don't know if it's marginally better or way better, but I'd say that's definitely worthwhile.
Michelle Hippler 36:52
So, what about the future? Are you already planning to become- the permanent resident in Spain?
Mark 37:00
Yeah, I think eventually that will make sense. Like I said, I'm just trying to deal with the immediate term stuff right now, but yeah, in terms of, like, where would I want to live in general, and maybe, or probably, retire. The thing is going back to, you know, I said I travel a lot, so I don't think I'll be in one place anyway. I'll continue to travel as long as you know, my aging body lets me. Another great benefit of Barcelona, and it's related to the tourism thing is it's really easy to get in and out of and really inexpensive. You know, I can fly and visit my kids in Sweden for maybe it's 50 euros each way, or something like that. So, the fact that there's so much traffic in and out, air traffic to all over the world, makes it really easy to keep doing that.
Jeffrey Jones 37:42
So, looking at a retirement, older age, you said that you'd like to stay here as long as you could. Do you plan to stay in Spain until the very end, till the elder years? You've got a little, a little- lot more time than us.
Mark 37:53
Oh, I don't know about that, but yeah. I mean Spain is like a famously excellent retirement destination. Healthcare is great, the weather's great, you don't have to shovel a sidewalk or, you know, slip in the rain or things. So, I don't see any reason why I wouldn't. The only reason I'm hesitant to say absolutely is because, you know, life throws curveballs at you. We might say, hey, you know, let's move to Thailand, or let's- let's do something else. But, yeah, the plan is to stay here indefinitely, and we'll see how things play out. As somebody who works in the future, I know, like where, where my actual horizon, like, ends, and how far I can see into the future, and that's- retirement and beyond is kind of out of the- out of the scope right now.
Jeffrey Jones 38:33
Have you heard good things about- I mean, obviously you're not ready for a nursing home, but like, nursing homes, long-term care, those things? I'm just starting to research those. Are they pretty good in Spain?
Mark 38:41
Yeah.
Jeffrey Jones 38:41
Do you know?
Mark 38:42
Yeah. So, I actually looked into that for my parents, like I said, they're, you know, they're getting older, and they pay absolutely ridiculous amounts of money for health care in the US. So, my mom had an issue with her eyes, and she needed to have an operation, but they said, first you well, you have dry eyes, so you need to get some special medication for that, and you take it for that, and you take it for a month, and it was going to be 1200 bucks. And I was like, that's crazy, because the same product is on sale here for 20 or 30, the same size bottle and everything. So, we just ordered it from Europe, and, you know, got her taken care of. So, that type of stuff, I think when I see how much they pay for even little things, and not just healthcare-wise. Like they need their steps repaired, and that's $12,000 or something. And here, you could get somebody to do it for probably less than 1,000 for the same job. So, across the board, I think you know, you will- your retirement savings. Will- first of all, they'll accumulate faster because you're not spending it on $12 lattes, and they will last longer, because all these other things are also very, very inexpensive.
Michelle Hippler 39:44
Have you considered bringing your parents over? Would they be open to that?
Mark 39:49
Yeah, we were actively looking at it like what we would do. So they're not ready either for retirement home or managed care, but we know that's in the future, and so we've been thinking about, "okay, would this be a better place?" You know, they've lived, as I said, when I was little we lived in Greece and some other places. And so it might be nice for them to, you know, move back to the Mediterranean and spend some time here, and they'd be closer to me and my brother, he's in Sweden. So that would be another advantage.
Michelle Hippler 40:13
Nice, that's pretty unique. I think that some people our age would have parents who are maybe not ready for that kind of a change in their later life years, right?
Mark 40:22
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They come to visit a lot. But again, it's, it's more and more of an effort just because of their, you know, health and age and things like that. So, that was why we thought: well, why don't we, you know, keep your house in the US, but come here, spend a good part of the year here, and then it's always there if you wanted to go back.
Michelle Hippler 40:40
Nice.
Jeffrey Jones 40:40
So, we're winding down our questions, and I have a fairly high-level question for you. You're familiar with a lot of different European cultures in the United States. What is your high level impression of the Spanish and then, maybe more specifically, the Catalonian people?
Mark 40:54
Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, there's a lot of- obviously, stereotypes are there for a reason. They're all true to some extent. But I think if you get below the- like that surface level thing, everybody is really very similar in terms of, you know, how they are with their friends and their family, those things are, you know, sort of- again, the distant Scandinavians, of course, they have friends and they have parties and they, you know, they have their own way of doing things that are just different from how they are in public. And so I think that's another real good advantage, or important reason to learn the language and to find local friends, is because you'll experience the culture from a completely different side. You get invited to weddings, you get invited to birthday parties, and that's- those are actually peak cultural moments. It's not the formal national culture, it's the- you know, when you get invited to your first, you know, friend making paella. You see this pan that's the size of a small car, and he's making food for 40 people in one big thing. It's like the equivalent of a barbecue or something. So, yeah, so those are, those are great reasons.
Jeffrey Jones 41:54
I'm looking forward to that paella pan. I haven't had that yet, but.
Mark 41:57
Yeah, I like- I want one, just because it's so cool looking. But yeah, I will. I will probably only make it three times. But anyway.
Michelle Hippler 42:05
Actually, my first paella was in the backyard of my neighbor in Billings, Montana.
Mark 42:11
Was that person Spanish?
Michelle Hippler 42:12
No, he was not. He's very Montana native, but he loved it, so he learned how to do it. He had the pan. It was all a backyard barbecue style. It was very cool.
Mark 42:22
Yeah, it's a bit of a flex to have any cooking implement that big.
Mark 42:25
Yeah, right. So, do you have any recommendations for other Americans wanting- considering moving to Catalonia or to Spain in general?
Mark 42:36
Yeah, I mean, I would say the biggest step is moving abroad at all. If you haven't lived abroad before, you really need to, you're going to be, I think, in for a lot of shocks and surprises and that- that- in a degree that you haven't dealt with before. You know, if you've just moved from one state to another, that might have been, you know, a lot of drama and trauma, you know, just get it, going to the DMV, finding new friends, figuring out the school system, and so those are going to be like the bottom 10% of your changes. If you're really excited about that, and you are ready to, in many aspects of your life, start over from scratch and rebuild, then that's great. And I think it's actually- again going back to what I said about expats, is that becomes your normal. You're used to having daily challenges, hourly challenges that you never have faced before, and at some point everything else seems boring. You know, it's like, if you're a firefighter and somebody says, "oh, I had a really bad day at work, my boss shouted at me" like that doesn't- that's not so bad, right? So, you- I think it, again, it really raises your abilities and your bar in ways that you would have just never been able to do in the environment where you're- you are now. So, that's I think the biggest reason to do it, is it makes everything else you've ever done easy.
Michelle Hippler 43:49
So, what about any advice for tech or innovation professionals, considering, you know, coming over? Like kind of give a- give them the sort of benefits and opportunity pitch.
Mark 43:59
Yeah. So, again, coming from Silicon Valley, having worked in tech, and I worked for four other startups and a couple of the big companies there, the intensity here is a lot lower. Like, at least, compared to San Francisco and probably like New York. So, I sometimes compare it to more like, maybe like San Diego, in terms of how intensely people are working. And sometimes that's frustrating for me. There's lots of holidays here, and it's kind of a joke in the office that I'm always groaning like, "not another holiday Are you guys going to be gone again?" You know? You don't expect people to work nights and weekends and things like that. So, if your business requires that, then you might think twice about starting one here to do that. It's not going to work that way. On the other hand, if it's something like in our case, where it's better to have good people, good culture, you want them to be using their brains as best they can, and not just sort of like stress working and stuff like that this is a great place to do it. As I mentioned, the cost of living is low, so you can get great talent from all over the world for not a lot of money, compared to what you'd have to pay in almost any place else, even other places in Europe. And that- you still have access to all those other places, again, because travel in and out of Barcelona is very easy. So, I think you're not leaving everything behind in business. Business is very global now, and so, yeah, pick the reasons that you want to come here, find people that have started similar businesses, and find out their experiences and see if it's a good match for what you want to do with your business.
Michelle Hippler 45:25
Well, Mark, thank you so much for sharing your time with us today and sharing your experiences for our listeners. This has been really, really insightful.
Mark 45:33
Thanks. It's given me a lot of things to think about too, so I appreciate the time with you too.
Jeffrey Jones 45:38
Thanks, Mark. Really appreciate it.
Michelle Hippler 45:40
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
45:50
[music]