Ep.10 However...(Comma)

It seems that with every new micro-trend or social phenomena our society is thrust into yet another battle against "loserdom". We are told that our human response to inhuman behavior is "cringe" and that our desire to connect will eventually lead to betrayal and heartbreak. Armchair tik-tok therapist tell us to exercise boundaries and insta info-graphics break down in 5 clear steps on how to "quiet quit" our relationships because of our inability to see difference as a relational asset. What if resignation wasn't our only choice? What does it look like to engage in the courageous act of connection,  and turn away from algorithmically dictated social norms? 

links!

P2S insta- @place2scream 

substack- SafeWord!

References:

Lani's Lens- Gen Z Is Normalizing Loser Behavior 

James Baldwin- Artist's Struggle for Integrity 

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 1:24

Hello, my name is Saf. And I'm Lognagia, and welcome back to a Place to Scream podcast. Today's episode is However, comma.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Guess what, kids? We're back, baby.

SPEAKER_07 1:41

Sorry for the radio silence. We were um crashing out as per usual. Sure. Yeah. We needed we needed a spring break.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

We needed a spring break. I don't know. I, you know, did you do any traveling for your spring break?

SPEAKER_07 2:00

No, I sat my ass down at home and and thought about what I've done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

I let the the horrors fester and haunt me in closed quarters. Um, I, you know, spring didn't really hit Miss Michigan until yesterday, so I, you know, I didn't really do much uh booping and bopping around. We did have a nice few walks.

SPEAKER_07 2:27

I mean, we're currently back in winter in London for some reason, so it's not we're not this whole this whole you know Bengali New Year, it's not hitting the way it's the way it's intended to be hitting at this moment in time, and I apologize to everyone. I have um silently disappeared from uh there's a lot of there's there's there's more where that came from that I can't say live on air. So if you're concerned about my well-being at all, um shoot me a message.

SPEAKER_04 3:04

Let the let this be a placeholder. If we are a lot this is our this is our Instagram dump like proof of life.

SPEAKER_07 3:11

Proof of life. Um and it's so it's it's it's very um it's it's to the point, it's precise, and it's very touche for the for the subject matter at hand for today's episode. So um, you know, let's let's just get right down to the nitty-gritty of uh let's get into it of isolation, you feel me?

SPEAKER_04 3:36

Well let's get into it. I you know, uh, as we always do, somehow we record right after a major pop culture event. So y'all already know what's a what we're about to talk about. Let's talk about the motherfucking Met Gala. And the I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. The Met floppa, because it flopped so bad that I had to yell on my podcast about it because what do you mean?

SPEAKER_07 4:15

The Empire is crumbling and I love to see it. The fucking flop gala of 20 flopped six.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

Miss Anna Wintor looking like a hot mess, wearing the same fit she wore the year before, but in green. Looking like a wet vulture.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_07 4:43

She's looking like a villain in a Disney movie.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

She's looking like a drowned crow. I guess fashion is art. Let's venture into this ridiculous theme that you've got to do. Yeah, I just I never even like is art.

SPEAKER_07 4:58

Honestly, it's it's it's so I've never in my life considered fashion to be art, so this is on this is uh sorry, that's sarcasm. Um yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

You know, G, I just never thought of fashion being a part of art. How is that a theme? Calling fashion what it is. Um it's like making a theme being clothes. This year's theme is clothing.

SPEAKER_07 5:36

I don't I like actually I'm trying to come up with like witty things to say, but I just I'm actually like to be honest with you, I don't really I I've never really fully understood like 90% of of the of the Met Gallot themes. Um because you know when I when I think the themed party, you know, I'm thinking let's go all out.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

I'm Well last year's theme was fierce. It's just yeah, I don't want to see this is the problem. So last year's theme was black dandy, black dandyism as a whole. Fierce, fierce, fierce, fierce. Love the concept. Some people really did a great job. How I the push and pull of I do not want to see black art that is fashion on white bodies. Don't want to see that. I don't want to see white people cosplaying and dandyism, that's fucking weird. I also like why is that a theme? Just I'm just curious of like why is that the theme? Do you know what I mean? They've never done like a cultural theme like that. I'm very curious.

SPEAKER_07 6:58

Yeah, what and the the the timing of it all and the but fashion is art. It's giving a PR.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

Fashion is art. I just, you know, as a starting point for me. Two starting points. Beyoncé was the co-chair, and the best thing she could think of was fashion as art. Diva. Be so for real right now. That's that's that is your you made a whole album black as king. You didn't want to do nothing black. You didn't want to do a s the art you referenced in your outfit wasn't even a black artist. Girl, get the fuck out of here.

SPEAKER_07 7:59

Who could have thought? I could have. Um, I yeah, I just I feel um as if if you're going to uh go to a red carpet, um you could at least look good. I d I don't is that so much to ask? And I don't I I truly could give like less of a fuck about the Met This shit comes comes on the TL every year, and I'm just like honestly, I I live for some of the the the takedown videos. I think they're funny, but like I I genuinely, you know, fuck the Met Gala, obviously. Uh needs to be said, but like is giving nothing burger. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 8:59

It was really deeply I mean, yeah, every year it is nothing because like it's a red carpet, but it's the Met Gala is a fundraising event for the Metropolitan Art Museum that already has billionaires donating to it. They are not, it's not like the Met is in lack of funding ever. It's never that has never been a reality on this planet that the Met has been running out of money. So we are watching a very hung hunger, I almost said Hungarian games, the Hunger Games style district one type of pomp and circumstance where it's like it's actually it's so overindulgent. It's very much the rich eating so much that they throw up and so they keep eating. Like it's really, it's really giving that. I do, I mean, listen, I love a gorgeous outfit. We all we all remember. Well, those of us who pay attention, we all remember where we were when Rihanna came out in that fucking royalty outfit and gagged us to eternity. Well, yes, we were all there when we saw Lady Gaga come on and a pair of lips. Yeah. That was sickening. There was, you know, there's a bunch of stuff. I even, you know what? I'll even give it to Casey Musgraves during the camp year where she dressed in uh dressed as a pink leather Barbie cowgirl. That was fierce. I loved that. A bunch of things that were fierce. Then we got, and I'm I'm not gonna speak too much on Mr. Hudson Williams because that's my other internet boyfriend. However, you got this beautiful man dressed up like old frumpy dumpy, wearing a matador costume, with some fuck-ass eyeshadow. Looks like he got beat up in an alley before hitting the runway. You got this absolute first of all, you know what? I'm not gonna shade the MUA too hard. Well, actually, I am, because do better. As if I'm an MUA. You got listen, shout out to my Waysians out there. I'm not, I am not you, but I shout out to y'all. I'm not in the community, I'm just an admirer. Shout out to the Waysians, but I cannot believe let let my rage be on the record. I cannot believe that his MUA decided they're trying to reference Black Swan like uh eyeliner that goes across into the hairline. I get that. You made that man look like Boo-Boo the Fool. That eyeliner was not going into the hairline, and they the way they accentuated it with his eye shape looked so catty wompous. I could not believe they should have gone with a square shape to make his eyes look more accentuated. I was guy, they didn't put in a colored contact, even though in the movie she has red eyes. I was like, y'all stop pissing me off with this ugly ass makeup on this beautiful man. How dare you?

SPEAKER_07 12:30

Safari is mad, y'all.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

I was so mad. Connor's story looked a mess. He looked plain and boring. All of the men looked boo-boo, boring, sad story. Like it just was so yawn fest.

SPEAKER_07 12:45

At least we we found out that uh Bad Bunny is still gonna be hot in his at least, at least uh we we've got a fine elderly man on the red carpet.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

He was giving Puerto Rican Colonel Sanders a little bit. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_07 13:04

I didn't talk about I was not talking about the rest of his outfit. Okay, I was talking about that face card.

SPEAKER_04 13:11

Let's of course I Benito live the complete image was giving Puerto Rican Colonel Sanders.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Damn.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

But the face, the face, of course, it never declined. Well, of course, of course, of course. And I really liked his take, actually. It was understated, but I really liked his take on the theme. But um, it was giving Colonel Sanders. Um we got Heidi Klume looking like a ghoul. Even though the makeup artistry was sickening, love it. But I was y'all, it was look after look after look that I'm like beige like blue. Yeah, they got beige.

SPEAKER_07 13:57

They got Vabita wearing jeans.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Jeans, mama. The only person who came in color was uh old girl, what's her name? Uh, who used to be part like of a YouTuber group. What's her name? Uh, and sickly. She has the like she had like black eyes. Y'all sound off in the comments. Y'all already know. Um, that girl, she was referencing a Van Gogh painting that looked really, really beautiful. That the gown she was wearing was stunning. And uh was actually artful. Loved that for her, even though she's kind of annoying. Um, and then uh Sizza was like the only other person. Oh, and Angela Bassett. But that was such an ill-fitting gown, and I was so upset. I said, How are you gonna make Angela Bassett look chopped?

SPEAKER_07 14:45

Angela Bassett Yeah, there's no that's that's uh the a crime against humanity.

SPEAKER_04 14:53

Like titties too tight together, lips makeup looking crazy, wig looking crazy.

SPEAKER_07 15:02

How dare you? How dare you? It was uh it was chopped. Um we got the Umbanis looking chopped. We got the the South Asian representation this year makes me want to kill myself.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

Rough.

SPEAKER_07 15:19

Makes me want to rough kill myself. Like it wasn't enough that y'all already did my boy Diljeet bad last year. Okay, let him wear the damn jewels, okay? But anyways, anyways, and it's is not it's not even enough that, you know, after that that Jimmy Fallon or whatever uh uh appearance, now the brown the brown folks know about this. After that Jimmy Fallon appearance, every it's not enough that every single comment was some white woman being like, oh hear me out.

SPEAKER_05 15:58

Like, or like, oh absolutely not. Oh, is is it crazy if I think he's hot? Oh, is is it just me? Wait, wait, guys, hear me out, hear me out.

SPEAKER_07 16:16

Is this a hot tip? Motherfuckers! You are showing your ass that is an objectively hot man. Has been, is, and always will be a gorgeous, gorgeous individual. Yeah, and now y'all trying to steal that shit too. Talking about, oh, it's just me. No, it's not just you. Don't piss me off. Don't actually piss me off. I don't fucking want to see the umbannies at another red carpet ever in my life.

SPEAKER_04 16:57

All the while, Chris Smalls is getting violently arrested outside. We have an anti-Met Gala gala happening as well that was slightly confusing, but it was showcasing. It was all like uh different organizers from the Amazon Union, as well as some different like working class organizers. So, like, cool was still confusing, but cool. Um, just in general, it's like, you know, I don't know. I I I respect all, you know, counter-protesting, but I just, you know, interesting, just interesting optics, very interesting. Um, but yeah, man, it's just like with everything, I think there was such a this I'm watch how I segue this. With all of intrigued. So what stuck out to me about this Met Gala shit was how just genuinely the blandness and the aloofness, the like lack of emotion period. And I mean, I think a lot of you know, a lot of like funny takes, but still, you know, rooted in some kind of thought you know, was like, oh, recession indicator, recession indicator, like uh like fashion is boring now, like blah blah blah blah blah. And it's like, hmm. Actually, let's let's let's widen the scope. Cause like, ha ha ha, but let's yes and this. This whole, you know, the I think the big critique of why a bunch of liberals are finally being like, fuck them at gala, is because of the Jeff Bezos of it all. Um, which is interesting. I'm like, y'all weren't mad before, but okay. Um and this, you know, his you know, obviously the connections of Amazon to Genocide of Palestine, as well as um, you know, connections to open AI and Plant Tier and all this, you know, the union busting of Amazon, everything. It has so many connections to the atrocities that we are also seeing alongside on our feeds with the Metgala updates. We're also seeing, well, some of us are also seeing the atrocities that this company is also responsible for, um, either on our shores in the US with the union busting or uh out elsewhere. And there is this really interesting, like this kind of void of feeling, this like ability to yell out about something, but the the kind of vacuum seal of actual feeling that is inactful, that that is actually moving people to do something, is very interesting to me. Because we obviously we see this on social media all the time. We've been seeing it for years now. It's obviously been I guess expedited or been become more profound uh since the escalation of genocide in Gaza. And, you know, this just kind of split consciousness that is online. But it's interesting that it's not bringing people to actual connection, right? This inability to express anything but a surface level rage.

SPEAKER_07 20:31

It's very uh Sara Sarah Poulson with the dollar bill on her eyes. Oh my god, I forgot that happened.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

Like the way that I already forgot that happened. It's that, oh god. Very that it's that, it's also AO remember when AOC went and back in 2022, I think, with the Eat the Rich dress, thinking she's like, ow, I ate that. It's like you look ridiculous. Yeah, but it's interesting that now we're at this, it seems like more and more, as the veil becomes unlifted, uh, you know, and hopefully continues to become unlifted, um people are reconciling with the fact that these liberal takes are bringing us nowhere, right? But right now, people do not know what to do with that discomfort. And there seems to be this kind of resignation of like, I don't know what to do. I have feelings, I I might even factually know why this isn't working, but now I'm I am stuck. Yeah. Which is making me think of this video that we both watched by Laney's Lance, YouTube channel Laney's Lens. Talking about Gen Z and this kind of um pedestaling of what she is calling like loserdom. Which I think she would kind of like loosely connect or loosely define as like this resignation of like trying of commitment. And yeah, I just see that I kind of see these parallels just with visually what we were seeing in the Metgala of this resignation of committing to something, even committing to the idea of fashion being representative art. Yeah. Like we are we have resigned ourselves so deeply into the beijification, into the neutralization of culture, that we now have no frame of reference. Not that the elite are, you know, the best at referencing art. But they at least have enough money to buy it and see it. I mean, goddamn. Right. If anyone can do it. The rich at least could do it. And so yeah, I think that's just what that's how I want to open up this discussion. Because I'm just very we're seeing much closer parallels of how this is affecting even this resignation of feeling is even affecting now this like ultra-rich who we perceive as this kind of like untouchable class or untouchable whatever. It's like, oh well, they're we look we've been seeing the rich at these culture makers. Like we're trained to believe the rich as being these culture makers, and we're like, damn, that's not happening anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 23:40

So now neither is neither is patronage. So you're kind of you're kind of caught in this middle ground of like, well, if if the rich aren't making culture and they're not paying anyone else to make it, uh but where do we sit in like in in the middle of like who do one, who do we look to to define culture, but also you know, where do we sit as culture makers, uh our ourselves or or artists as a whole? And I think, yeah, I think the Loser Dome thing is is interesting. Um she referenced Tell the Bees a lot, which I I've I've seen, you know, plenty of their videos on TikTok. And um it's interesting because tell the bees does it in like a very, you know, celebrity culture, um kind of culture editor-esque uh, you know, takedown of some of these um, I guess tropes and uh and patterns within, you know, our parasocial relationships, um both with the internet but with all with celebrity itself. Um and yeah, it just seems like there's there's this pattern recognition happening, which is which is good. That's like definitely the first step of like, okay, well we can see like for example, they have a series called American Cheating, which is like really interesting, um, in which that they like break down kind of famous affairs that have like taken place and like um like Hollywood's like just you know necessity of kind of looking the other way, so it's like you know, the ch two celebrities, you know, will have an affair with other people, and then the way that they make up for that is by you know then marrying that person they have an affair with.

SPEAKER_04 25:42

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_07 25:44

To then kind of, you know, almost do some fucking magic, some sleight of hand to convince the audience and the viewership that like, oh well, yeah, I cheated, but I cheated for love, right? Um and again it is it's almost like the way that we then perceive cheating now, right? Cheating now on the internet has been has been made into like oh, this is the worst thing you could do. Like, this is like the bottom tier of the worst thing you can do to someone else. And it's like, excuse me, um there's abuse, there's assault, there's lots of things in a relationship that can happen that definitely is worse than cheating, but instead of dealing with the fact that, oh, well, American cheating has gone on in the public eye, yada yada yada, and they always get away with it. Um the focus should be on okay, what are the power systems that are in place to like like achieve that kind of result? No, what what current generation is doing now is focusing on how the fuck do we make punish them and how do we make them pay, right? So there's a lot of this loser dumb culture that's like so surveillance-based and punishment-based, yeah um, that again this applies to the you know, the the patronage and the the culture maker of it all, of like how can we push culture forward if you know everyone is backpedaling on themselves to try to figure out like what the quote unquote right thing is, or they're either doing that or they're just sat at home doing nothing and doing scrolling.

SPEAKER_04 27:38

Yeah, ooh, some interesting, interesting thoughts here. I you know, I feel like I yeah, I'm feeling very I'm I'm kind of sitting with this idea of like resulting on punishment out of the like out of the idea that you somebody, like, you know, whatever the disenfranchised person, whoever is cheated on, um doesn't have the like uh equipped skills of processing the hurt of being cheated on, or whatever the relationship dynamic was that that yielded that result. And you know, like obviously America in general, but also you know, I feel like the part part of colonization is relying on a punitive system, right? Yeah. And uh oh, I said colonization. Time check that's 28 minutes, 30 seconds, and then colonization is mentioned.

SPEAKER_07 28:53

Alright. That's uh that's an inside thing, but you know, just just to explicitly let let the let the people know we are anti-colonial indeed and in fact.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

Well, yes. Because of obviously, because of these colonial structures of punitive uh repercussions, it's interesting what that just in the long term has caused for our culture to not be able to deal with our own hurt emotions, right? Yeah, and and really our emotions at as a whole, because I it's interesting. I, you know, you and I both talk at different, you know, institutions or workshops or whatever. You know, you and I both also work with young some people who are younger than us by a good margin. And I think what I notice a lot, especially with the younger people that I work with, is there is, you know, sometimes I'll like one of my coworkers they'll just say like they'll ask me like a crazy question where it's just like, is it cringe if I do this? And the thing that they're asking is like literally, Jita, like expressing a human emotion. And I literally have to uh well sometimes I'll crash out in front of them and be like, What the fuck do you mean? And I have to like full stop be like, with all the love and respect, shut the fuck up. Like never ask me that question again. But I also like, you know, it is it's just jarring to me where it's like it's like something like that, where I'll be like, babe, you are a human being. You are allowed to express your feelings, even if they don't land well or not. You're allowed to do that. It's you know, your feelings are your responsibility. So do what you want, but do not you're almost putting the responsibility back on the person who's receiving it by asking if it's cringe because you're relying on their reaction to dictate how you feel. And it's like, no, actually, you're responsible for what you do with your feelings, and that's okay. Like, as long as you're mature enough to deal with the consequences, if there are some, it's fine. But anyway, so it's it there's that, and then there's also, you know, I'll also notice that like people want to connect really badly. So like I'll see in my like the cohort that I'm a part of. It's a 10-month cohort, it's all supposed to be about community building while also learning tools as either a somatic practitioner or somebody who puts somatics within their you know, work, whatever that, you know, capital W work is. And the the app that we use, like it has their multiple discussion boards, you know, there is ability, there are abilities for people to post, you know, as like on a feed basically. There are you know, there are live chats in the uh courses that we have. The chats are usually quite pop in, like people are wanting to connect, da-da-da-da-da, like whatever, that's great. When I tell like I uh there was some somebody a couple months ago who put uh in the the main feed of the software that we use, hey, where is everybody? Cause mind you, there's like 400 people in this cohort. It's a global cohort. I've never seen people post on there, which is so bizarre. So this person goes on a pretty long rant of like, uh, you know, I really appreciate the teachings that we're getting, and that's really great, but like, where's the community? And I like really commend this person for being like, bro, like let's cut the bullshit. Like, they literally were just like, What's going on, dog? Like, what the fuck's going on? What is this? And you know, there was a lot of discourse going on of like in the comments, because a lot of people agreed, and they were like, I was thinking the same thing, like blah blah blah blah, and it's like, okay, okay, wow, okay, interesting. And then we had like created a whole separate signal chat for people who wanted to like do some extra curricula, like just like community meetup calls or whatever. I can't attend them because I work on the days that they do that, but it's not not a big deal. Um, but it's just so interesting. And lit and of the f almost 400 people that are part of this cohort, that signal chat has like I'm using my phone for the for our call, but it has like 50 people in it. It's a gag. And so it's like, damn, we're really like even in a cohort, a huge a good sample size of cohort of somat people who are either in somatic practitioning or are like use somatics in some way, are still Enable to connect in some have the agency, right? They like taking their own agency to connect, even though the desire is there.

SPEAKER_07 34:11

I mean, I think the you can make the argument that, you know, and it the argument has been made that like everyone does desire connection. Like it's not this is not a it's not a hot take, and this is not like a a newfound kind of like study in in human psychology, like it it's innate to to who we are. That's not to say that like you know isolation doesn't have you know a very important place in our human psychology. I I I would argue in fact that the people that actually simply can't be alone struggle even more to actually properly connect. But I think um even the the the fact of the matter to have to tell someone yes it's actually okay and not cringe for you to feel something, or yes, it's actually okay and not cringe to like want to feel love and like to to want to have people around them that support them and that you know you support back. Like this is this is a uh a worldwide global problem right now because I I would argue genuinely there's not a single person on this earth that doesn't want that, and yet, and yet, um it's I don't know if it's that we have come to this whatever quote unquote mainstream of loser dumb in which people are like unable to literally do the work of communication, or if it's like people are you know too afraid to communicate.

SPEAKER_04 36:07

Totally. Well, I what I really liked in that uh uh essay of Laney Laney's lens was this connection to COVID, which you know, I think for me, and I'm I'm glad that now people I mean it seems to become it seems that it is becoming more popular to to include COVID as an effect on why people's communication skills have been gradually getting poorer and poorer and it but it's interesting because um as my delusional brain uh leads me, I always think everyone acts and behaves the same way as I do. And I like, you know, working with younger people, even people who are just even like four or five years younger than me, who like maybe started undergrad when COVID started as opposed to ending. Um it's been interesting to hear them talk about their experiences because for me during COVID, uh, I am not gonna make ill, or I'm not gonna make light of the, you know, tragedies that have happened and continue to happen because of it. I was kind of living my best life. Like I was crashing out, let it be known. That, you know, family estrangement, all that stuff basically started around that time, and you know, there's a bunch of other shit that happened at that time. But weirdly enough, in that time of shutdown and in physical isolation, I became much more connected to people who I now consider lifelong friends and people and comrades and people who I ended up organizing with and people who helped me grow my political praxis and all this other stuff. And so I didn't I wasn't thinking or I haven't been made to think about the people who did suffer very harshly um with how with isolation and expressing themselves and all of these things because that's when I basically became confident to do those things.

SPEAKER_07 38:06

Um Well, but that's a that's a two-parter, like sorry to interrupt, but that's a two-parter in the fact that you know this goes like this further, I guess, proves the my my hypothesis that's sometimes you do need, you know, a certain amount of isolation to understand the to the to understand the value of like you know what is the depth of a connection that you want. We're we're not just filling our time with mundane, inane kind of acts of like, let's go out, let's go to this event, oh I'll see this person at this event again, and for the 15th time, they're gonna be like, oh, we should get a drink sometime. Never gonna happen. Yeah. Like we are filling our world up with these kind of little micro forms of interaction that feel like you know that that's meant to be connection. But I think sometimes once you hit isolation mode, like I'm in right now, you naturally it it gets revealed to you like who is you know gonna reach out to like if you stop reaching out to people for the first time, who's gonna actually be there on the other side reaching out to you? Totally. Um, and it's heartbreaking because you you don't get reached out to 99% of the time. Yeah. However, comma, um, because maybe we've experienced these things at a a later stage in life, um, you know, COVID or, you know, the isol my Hermit era, as I call it. Um, maybe we've developed certain tools for connection um that that, you know, kind of help us in doing that. However, the kids thought, you know, you're talking about and like I I too were was teaching writing online, um teaching like fun classes. I was teaching like podcasting and and creative writing to these like kids online and like children I'm talking, like they were so deeply depressed.

SPEAKER_08 40:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:25

They you know the the little engagement I could get, you know, I could tell like you know, I had this one girl who like really was excited to like write stories and have an imagination, and it was really sweet, but behind her eyes, I was like, oh, this girl so desperately is craving that. I had another student whose parents had to um move out their their home during COVID, and they were living in a um in a camper van, and she for 50% of the sessions didn't have internet. Um and I could just see how it was crushing her, right? Like, and how she wasn't ever able to like communicate that to me of like actually what I'm struggling with is not the writing or is not the class, it's just that this disconnection that's literally happening on the internet, and this and this disconnection between well, what's it all for, anyways? What's it all for when this is like the external life that I'm living?

SPEAKER_08 41:40

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:43

And that, I mean, that is like that like breaks my heart hearing that because it is just like someone who is who is seeking that connection, but is like it is literally the material conditions around that is that is causing that kind of hopelessness, really, that's like behind the eyes, and is also a really difficult thing to communicate, right? That's part of it too. Of like part of the the shame that capitalism brings onto people also inhabits or inhibits their ability to communicate too, right? Like it even someone who is going through either housing insecurity or just you know, whatever insecurity that they are experiencing, the shame of talking about that and being like, I really love writing, I cannot afford to go to a workshop, or I cannot rely on I don't have access to a public library where I might have more stable um internet or whatever. It's like we there needs to be space for that too, because what happens when when we are not used to receiving that kind of vulnerability as well? What it what is what's the discourse online most of the time? Oh, this well, you should have tried this or you could have done this or blah blah blah blah, instead of meeting somebody emotionally where they are sitting.

SPEAKER_05 43:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 43:09

And just being like, I am really fucking sorry. Like, I'm pissed with you and I'm heartbroken with you. What can like, is there something we can do in that space together?

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

Obviously, when you're in class with multiple students, there's not as much as you can do in that moment. However, you know, I just am thinking of what the, you know, I'm sure that COVID in some way, or in many ways, that we're we're actively finding out now, compounded so much of people's fear of expressing. Because when you're relying on internet dialogue the whole time, like during shutdown, you're we're relying on this algorithm to basically tell us what was happening in the world, right? Yeah. And we're reflected back. Violence. Or at least a certain type of indignity. That it feels like it has really gotten people in a hole. Um, and is reflecting now in this, you know, ultimate. We're in this ultimate, we're almost in post-beige vacation, right? Like we're almost in this like which God forbid which I'm anti-beige vacation.

SPEAKER_07 44:36

I was like, I don't think I'm de-beige vacation.

SPEAKER_04 44:41

Um I see the you know, I see the I see the pros of beige vacation. Um, but the you know, this um this I can imagine how as a young person, but I think we see it in adults too, like like more matured adults, of this if you're only getting back retribution when you express yourself online, because that's where we know how to do it now, right? We don't know how to do it, we don't know how to do it with each other, right? You know, I've you know, hopefully, in you know, in our own relationships to people, I try, you know, as much as possible. But you know, even when I try, you know, sometimes that's not reciprocated because of people's own fears. That's okay. I have space for that, of course. But like, when we are taught, even if you don't express yourself online, we can see what happens online. We can see the patterns, we see what happens, the canceling, the which isn't real, but you know, the canceling, the putting on blast, the sub-tweeting, the fucking, you know, all of the bullshit, all the the finstas, the even in dating. Did he like my story? Oh, but he put me on my cl on his close friends, but he's not responding to my text messages, so I'm being now I'm being punished again for having genuine interest in either a person or a subject or whatever the fuck. And it's like, well, damn, of course we're bad. How can we expect people to share and be vulnerable with each other or even just have genuine conversation? You know, what happened to the art of conversation? You know what I mean? Um it's it's it's this of course you're going to feel like you ha the only option is to resign yourself to this loserdom. This right, this person who why is it worth trying to connect? Right.

SPEAKER_07 46:37

If we are met with retribution, constantly met with, you know, some kind of a punishment for for s speaking out. And the thing is, I think uh the other part of it is that yes, like so Lonnie speaks about in the video this this one TikTok that um this girl made about how she was like really jealous of her friend. Oh, this was iconic.

unknown 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 47:07

Um, and like it's okay to be jealous, you know, da-da-da. And like, you know, because I was jealous, it's it I was jealous because it seemed like she didn't like do any work to like achieve like the things she achieved in life, and she had such a great life, and I was like so jealous that I just you know made the decision for myself that like I just actually can't be friends with this person, yeah, or this person can't be in my life at all because I'm jealous, instead of mind you, applying yourself and trying to figure out how you know you can then have the life that you want. Now, I'm not I'm not advocating for meritocracy, I am not saying that you know, I am really truly, if you know my life, you know, you know that you can fucking put in the fucking hours, you can put in the work and still get nowhere. That is hundred percent true. However, however, comma, it is one thing to then gauge, you know, the the failures that you feel like within your own life um being unfair, which is true. This life is fucking unfair, this world is fucking unfair, it is not an equal cloth for all of us. And it's another thing to be like, oh, because you've got a bit more cloth, I can't be friends with you. Instead of just having a conversation about, oh hey, like I really admire that, you know, like you've done this. Like, how have you done that? I'm really proud of you. Like, I would love to do something similar, or you know, that's what building community is, it's resource sharing. Building community is not like, oh, this person's cool. I want to be cool. Building community isn't a fucking high school click, okay? And I've been saying this for many, many fucking many episodes. I don't know if I've actually said it on air, but I've all I've been saying community now feels like a popularity contest. Maybe, you know, it maybe in a way that feels so limiting because it feels like okay, you have to be a certain kind of way and speak a certain kind of way and know what to say and know what not to say to be part of the community, but that's not fucking what community has been. Community has been, you know, that the the the people in your neighborhood, uh in my in my neighborhood in Kolkata, that you know, if my parents wasn't around, could still scold me if I was fucking doing some shit. Like community is, you know, we arrived to Nashville with absolutely nothing and no knowledge, and the other Bengali folks in the area giving us some tools and some knowledge on you know how to fucking survive in this place. That's what community is. Community isn't your shared interests, community isn't your you know your shared success, even. Community is shared resources, that's it.

SPEAKER_04 50:32

Absolutely, and it's also making me think I've I wish I remember the person I was watching. I don't I don't think I followed them, it just was like a chance video that I saw. But this idea of like um the I think what a lot of this like influencer culture has created is this idea that like you and your friends have to be at the same place in your life the whole time your your relationship lasts. You get a promotion, I get a promotion, or you get this opportunity, I got an opportunity. The way that that is so unequivocally false. But that's exactly post-COVID, dude, especially post-COVID. I have an audio engineering degree. Do you think I was doing any audio engineering for live sound when COVID hit, dog?

SPEAKER_07 51:34

No, no, absolutely not. But this is exactly the reason this is exactly why when your friends get into a relationship, you never fucking see them again. Yeah. Or when they get married, oh, you know, I guess it's time for you to get married now in order to exist in the in this world. That doesn't make sense in any capacity, whether that's success, whether that's relationships, yeah, whether that's oh, I had a baby now. Like, yes, there's time constraints, there's time limitations. We all have that. We all have, you know, to pay the bills, we all have to fucking sleep at night, we all have to do the dishes, you know, like however, yeah, just going off of what you were saying, like this this you know, fallacy, it's a fallacy.

SPEAKER_02 52:24

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 52:26

Yeah, it absolutely is. And it also, you know, the it's I'm thinking of the you know, the going back to the kind of that um that person who did the TikTok about, you know, being jealous of their friend, which I like honestly, it almost felt camp to me the way that it was. It was very camp. It was so funny to me of just like, girl, you are delusional. But it's like, you know, it's interesting too, of like, I'm thinking of like how does it feel as her friend to not hear from her or just get this weird, crazy message, likely out of nowhere, that was like, um, like I I'm sure it was framed of like, I just don't think our relationship is healthy anymore, and da-da-da-da, whatever. And it's like your inability to understand jealousy. Because jealousy, like all emotions, are it's j it's actually it's I don't know if jealousy is technically an emotion or a feeling or if there's those are even different. I I'm not gonna get into the you know splitting years of it all. Whoa! But it is however way you want to def you know categorize it, it is also a temporary feeling. And we if we have any job really in this as this as our lives as human beings, it is how we process and take responsibility of our own feelings. That's not saying to suppress it, it is to deeply understand it, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 54:06

If I feel jealous, I'm I'm not gonna when I especially in my I would say like younger or in mid-20s, I don't really feel jealous anymore. I think it's if I ever get into a pit, like a spiral of like comparison, it's more of like, wow, I wish I could write like this person, or like, wow, I wish I understood something as deeply as this person. It's not really like jealousy per se. I would I wouldn't really call it that. It's just like a weird comp like uh comparison thing. But I nip that shit in the butt because ew, why would I do that? Um just read more books, dum dum. Uh or like take a walk, who cares? But like, but this, but I understand like jealousy can be a very um difficult emotion to understand, and but we but you're still responsible for it. Right. You can't just say, oh, I'm a jealous person. You're not. Yes, we all have our you know personality defaults. Jealousy isn't a personality. No, it's not the default of your personality either. If it were, I would be scared that you're some demon spawn. But like, you know, uh, you are still responsible for it. So to be a recipient, right, of somebody's jealousy. Sometimes you get an explanation, sometimes you don't. Likely, if you get an explanation, it's some weird sideways shit where they project onto you. It's this weird, like, you're asking too much, or you're you're rubbing something in my face, or you think you're all that, da-da-da-da-da-da. And it's like, whoa dog, like, what does it what does it look like to not not necessarily entertain the emotion of jealousy, but what does it look like to actually sit with the emotions that you're not comfortable expressing? Yeah. Because it's uh it's not only irresponsible, but it's just it's just dehumanizing to project like that onto other people and just say that oh, my feelings are paramount here. That my feelings trump my responsibility as a person of the village, and there is no village on the internet, right? There is none. Even people who have the most wholesome, based, cool, whatever content, and their their fandom is great, and da da da. It's not a village. Because we don't know you, we don't know each other. Physical proximity means so much. She doesn't even go here. She don't even go here. And it's yeah, it's just um I don't I don't know. I don't want to play into the that the think piece of like, is the village cooked? Does the concept of the village still exist? Well, yes, because rural areas in the global stealth still exist. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, villages still exist. Like, let's not talk about indigenity and some weird past tense bullshit. Let's not do take a walk. So, like, the rurals, like rural communities still exist. Like, go touch grass, but like but literally villages exist. Like literal ones, physical ones.

SPEAKER_07 57:45

Okay, take a look.

SPEAKER_04 57:47

Take a walk, literally, do a lap. Do some windsprints. Um but yeah, I don't know. I'm just I'm really this this fear of like emotional responsibility, because it also feeds into like liberative movements and stuff. Like it really just it all feeds into this one into this beast of in inaction.

SPEAKER_07 58:14

And then don't even get me started on like how then the therapy talk kind of goes hand in hand with that because you know, we're talking, and this has been honestly, on I'm honestly shocked and in awe at how long it took people to realize that people were weaponizing therapy talk. Like, I I mean call it gl the global south. I don't know, like it might be my global south upbringing, but um I was on that, like the moment the first person ever in my life was like boundaries. I was like, oh. Oh what? So we're making the Radcliffe line cool again? Like, oh, so borders are back. Screen because it's never how you're you know, it's one thing to be like, okay, I need to, you know, I might need to just assert my own boundaries to myself a bit better. It's another thing to be like, oh, actually, I just don't want to do this thing myself, so like that is my personal boundary that you can't breach. If you want to do that thing, sorry. Boundaries. Like, you know what I mean? And that shit was going on so early on, and I was like, hmm. Yeah, I'm at capacity. Like, when when I'm feeling at capacity, your mess is not gonna hear from me.

SPEAKER_04 59:55

I'm screaming.

SPEAKER_07 59:56

When I'm what I'm just being real, when I'm at capacity, I'm crushing out on my like in my bathtub, like having a fucking meltdown. Like, I I don't have the time to type out I'm at capacity, please message me later. Like, if I have the time to type something out, I will type out a response. Like, yeah. That's just a fact, you know. But I think this this idea, if we're talking punitive and we're talking, you know, retribution, you know, let's let's just have a quick brief discussion on accountability, shall we?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:33

Absolutely. Um, part of why I brought up the COVID thing was because of that great point that Laney made about uh how COVID created this uh thought cycle, which it makes sense for the time, but it has now carried over to a you know an insane amount. It's you know, if we want to get real conspiracy brain, I'm like, this is what they wanted. But they um but this idea of like isolation equals survival. And I think the early stages of us seeing that, granted, therapy speak has been weaponized for much longer than you know just 2020, of course. You know, people were making jokes about that in Sex in the City in 1998, you know what I mean? Right. And I'm sure way before then too. However, I I do I thought therapy wasn't cool then. Sure, no, therapy was for losers. Yes. Therapies were therapy was for losers up until about the late 90s, um, and then kind of back to loserdom and then came back to be good. Anyways, um the yeah, the concept of that our isolation equates to our survival. When she when she said that on the video, I said ding, ding, ding. Yes. Because this the these early stages of people our age, I would say, who started, you know, seeing seeing therapy, seeing a therapist during 2020, you know, ex you know, I need this is my boundary, da-da-da-da-da. And you know, I think a lot of people, while boundaries are supposed to be a way for people to interact and have access to you, and vice versa, you know, it all gets bastardized within seconds. Um, when you put it in the hands of you know, liber the liberal whites. The um, you know, this concept of boundaries, um, the concept of boundaries being used basically as an avoidance tool. In that, oh, actually I'm I'm putting up boundaries for my survival, I'm further isolating myself for my survival, what you're actually doing is is essentially creating like this toxic like bubble for yourself where nothing gets in or out. So you've you've now boundried yourself too close to the sun. And now you you actually are unable to connect with people in a meaningful way.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:29

Because you you have made it to where you can't be vulnerable with people because you're like, oh, people misuse it, people do da-da-da-da-da. And I'm not saying that, you know, people don't step on you. Like, I'm not saying that. I have been trampled on many a time. Don't let the record correct. However, and this is I wanted to bring this up earlier, but I think now is a better time. The concept of courage. And boop, boop, boop, the fear is scary. Baby, the fear remains and will always be scary. That we'll just name every episode that. Um, but it is I think about, you know, think about really. I encourage all, everyone listening, really sit with this question of who taught you to be courageous. How is courage a given space or a given agency in your life? For some of us who are especially belong to a displaced diaspora, sometimes courage is never a question of if but when. Right. We we have to be courageous. Or we'll die. Uh permanently displaced people, black Americans. Every day we get outside and breathe air, I would argue is a form of courage. To for me to go on a walk in areas that I know where ice abductions have been happening is a courageous thing. I also think of, you know, God, you know, I've been speaking very well of my mother recently uh today, and I, you know, that's not common. But something that actually was very important for me to hear from her, which is you know part of my confusion with this woman, is she commended me on my courage often. Interesting. I know.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:54

Whoa, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:57

And I actually is really interesting. Because I also in a way in a very, very specific way find her to be I find all women courageous to be honest. To exist in a the scary ass violent world, I think all women are courageous. She survived multiple abusive men. You know, she that is a courageous act to continue to live as a woman who has suffered many abuses. I commend and I admire her for that. There would be times where, like, when the pulse shooting happened, um even though I was not out at the time, when the pole shooting happened, when the Las Vegas shooting happened, uh, a couple other things that happened in the span from like 2012 to 2018-ish. And I would go to shows all the time. I would go to clubs, I would go, I would tell her about these places that I would go to, and she would tell me often, I'm really I she would say I would I admire how courageous you are to go to these spaces. And that like you're not allowing the horrors of the world to stop you from living your life. Yeah. And that is an important thing to hear. It's actually like quite life-altering to hear from somebody older that like you're being brave, and I commend you on your bravery. And to to encourage to that continued bravery, right? Who is telling young people to be brave now? If not to serve the imperialist state.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:44

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was gonna say. I feel like, you know, on an external societal level, the only cultural references to bravery I got as a brown girl growing up in the American South was it's brave to serve your country. Yeah, it's brave to literally they're telling little kids it's brave to literally physically put yourself in the hands of warfare. That is the bravest thing you could do. Yeah. No, it it's not brave to use your voice. No, it's not brave to communicate uh an un you know, unsavory feeling. No, it it it's it's actually in fact not brave to, you know, be a black person in America and step outside. Mm-hmm. Actually, who is brave in that scenario? The police.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:52

Yeah. Mmm, totally, totally. For facing the barbarian that the threat of blackness. Yeah, totally, totally.

unknown 1:09:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:04

And so that's what was going on then, and I'm sure it's only gotten it's only gotten worse now because, you know, similarly to you, like I got a lot of as much as I got loads of obvious in-your-face criticism for my life path, career path for my, you know, alternative choices uh in the eyes of the South Asian community.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:32

Um alternative lifestyle.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:35

Alternative lifestyle. You're living a very interesting life, young missing. Um, you just go out and do anything. Well, damn, you're so brave. Uh derogatory. Um yeah, I I had plenty of criticism in, you know, and I still, I'm sure, do. However, on the flip side of that is they would never say it to my face, but there were several people within the community that would kind of like secretly go to my parents, and they're like, Wow, like, you know, she's like, she's like really doing that. She's doing that, she's like facing these these horrors, like, as you said, these she's she's going out taking the path of the most resistance, in fact, um, at every single given opportunity. Um, that's kind of you know, I'll say it quietly, like I'll I'll I'll whisper it in your ear, because I don't want my own kids to hear that. But uh but that's kind of that's kind of brave. And there was always this deep underlying unspoken almost even fear of admitting that that was a brave thing because oh, you're gonna infect my spawn with your carelessness, you know, like, and yet deep down I know that they believed that like actually that's really fucking radical. Yeah, right. Yeah. Um and even if I didn't hear it from them, I heard that from my parents, which was so fucking big given that they too are South Asian immigrants, they too had hopes and dreams, they too have, you know, realistic understandings of you know safety and what they would have loved me to to have that they saw very early on that I couldn't have. And in spite of that, instead of being like, well, well, you should, because you don't have that, you should, you know, spend your whole life searching for the stability and searching for the the normalcy and the and the traditional path because you don't have that, so you really had to go over time. Instead of doing that, they did the opposite. Right. Right? And that was and they still I mean, I'm gonna get emotional, that's rare on the on the air. They uh as much as you know there was conflict and friction, like those are the only two truly supportive elder figures I've ever had in my life. Which then goes to like your question. I used to get, you know, I I feel like you, you know, you're probably in a similar boat where it's like when we were really young in school, like your teachers would kind of encourage some of that. Like it it was kind of baked into like elementary education, like young education, where they were they were like, dream big, be brave, like you know, these before standardized testing. Before standardized testing. And then yes, and then that happened, and it was like zap. Eradicate imagination, eradicate, you know, straying from the from the path, eradicate any, you know, any thought that could challenge it's fucking big brother, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:19

No, truly, because I mean, you know, even as a right, being an adoptee in a rural, mainly I lived in the white section of our town. But you know, I I remember like in like second and third grade, I mean when I'm I you know, anyone who knows me anyone who knows me personally, my I would argue my favorite thing on this earth to do is just laugh and have a Kiki. I fucking love laughing. I love making people laugh. I am a j I am a dare I say it, joyful person. Whoa. Um You may dare. I I will dare and say that my default is to actually be a quite positive person. Um, regardless of my you know ability to analyze or pin things down, it is still like in a positive direction, right? It's not to ever put something down, it is to always push something forward or uplift, right? And I, as a young person, was always I was giggling non-stop. And my I remember so vividly my second and third grade teachers, they shared a door, and so they would come and like talk to each other while we were like doing work or some shit. And I would be like practi I my desk was really close to the um my home teacher's desk, and I'd be like practicing my cursive, which I s I ate down at horseshit at it now, but like you know, I write in like a half all caps and cursive, it's really a debacle. But at the time, I was eating up my cursive, blah blah blah blah, and I'm listening to these adults talking, and I'm giggling my ass off, and I'm like low-key sometimes putting in my own little like hee hee hee kid stuff, which I'm like I don't know what I was saying, but I was trying to be funny, and they would be laughing or whatever, and like that I just remember like me and my classmates, so it was like a small Christian private school, and shout out to Calvary Baptists. Um I mean, don't shout out, they were they were horrible, but there's so many woes happening y'all don't y'all wouldn't y'all don't even know the the when I write my memoir, it'll be 800 pages long. The lore is just so rich and deep. I did go to a private Baptist school for two years, and um my yeah, and I just remember like every one of my classmates who I think some of us are still Facebook friends, like we were all just so encouraged to be ourselves, and just like we literally like I remember laughing so much in that class. Like, I'm getting emotional thinking about how much joy we had, like in those classes. And let me let me tell y'all, I wasn't doing my homework. I'm so sorry to Miss Garcia, uh, my third grade teacher, who literally multiple times had to be like, hey bitch, like is everything okay at home? Because you do not ever do homework. And I'm like, ha ha ha. No. But it's crazy that even living in a deeply traumatizing household, I'm like, how am I still being encouraged to be courageous? Like, that's crazy. Right, you know, and I just I it's in I find myself in me, you know, there's of a more nuanced of just like, you know, your calling as a healer or poet or whatever, you know, you tend to path uh cross paths with people who need something. And that's not even like a correct you know, that's not that's not even like a people need me. It's just like no, this shit just happens. But like it's just you meet people and by the grace of God, like you're able to collaborate and you know, uplift people and whatever. And you know, I that's a regular thing for me to come across people who and and likewise I I also ask people to build me up, you know what I mean? Um, but it's so interesting how much of it boils down to be like babe, you're just scared. And like, you're scared not just because like, oh, I don't know if I can do this or not, blah blah blah. You're scared because you don't think people will support you in trying.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:54

And you're scared because we we are currently, you know, call it adulthood, call it the times we're living in. We we've lost the art of praise as well. We've lost the art of conversation, but we truly have lost the art of praise. Speak on that, baby, because that is so true. It's like I you know will go out of my way in in group settings, in you know, collaborative settings to it, it's not even like I think about it. It just comes out of my mouth. Like, oh, that was great, that was cool, I like that. Keep doing that. Like, it I don't even think about it. It doesn't even like it's not even like oh you should give someone a compliment now. Like, you know what I mean? Call it a praise kink. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:49

We all fucking need it though, we all fucking need it, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:59

Uh, to to act all, you know, all hard and and and and act like you don't need some validation sometimes. Absolutely. Just because you want to hear validation does not mean that you're insecure. Bro.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:20

Like tell me from the cliff side. Tell me I did something good. Um, listen, I'm not gonna get into too much of my my deep personal life, but also um, I'm I'm I'm gonna need somebody to tell me I did a good job. Please I'm gonna be real. Mrs. Garcia. Mrs. Garcia, where are you at? I'm gonna need you to tell me I did a good job.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:50

Where's my gold star?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:52

Um I'm gonna need that, I'm gonna need that gold star. I'm gonna I'm gonna need that golden golden noodle or whatever the fuck that was from SpongeBob. I'm gonna need yeah, I'm gonna I'ma need that. No, like think about how actually like physically the nice insane shoulder.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:11

Think about how insane physically it is that you used to be a young kid and you could do bare minimum to almost nothing, and you would get a gold star, you would get a participation participation fucking trophy, you get a ribbon just for being there, and then you enter adulthood, you're doing the craziest shit imaginable. You're freaking you're breaking boundaries, you're on galaxy brain, it's off right dome, you're changing the world, it's the best shit you've ever done. Crickets, and then I'm getting my back kicked in. Not only crickets, but people are then projecting their jealousies.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:50

Bro, I'm getting my my freaking back kicked in. Y'all didn't tell me this was how the world worked because I because I didn't say sorry before I presented something. Like, what I'm so sorry, guys. Y'all mind if I slay this? Like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_07 1:21:08

Like, I don't think I can't remember the last time any of anyone was like, oh, that was a good poem. And it's fine because I know it's a good poem, but like at the same time, I'm not asking for a participation trophy at this stage. I know that I slay I know I slayed that shit. Yeah. Like, I don't even need an award.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:32

But to be seen, just to be seen and to be understood. Yeah. Hey, you worked really hard on this great job. Like, great job for just committing yourself to doing something and executing it. Let me tell not I'm you know, on the back to just a just to touch on the loss, connect it back to loser dumb real quick. Y'all bitches love staying on the internet on Instagram. Oh, I would have done it this way. Ooh, I would have oh, but they didn't include blah blah blah blah. You do it. But for real, I'm challenging you. You sit down, explain what it feels like to write something like that. Not because I want, oh yeah, you see how hard it is, blah blah blah. Yes, but also like it's not to prove my ego, it's to be like, hey sister, sit down, touch grass, and do something for yourself. For yourself. A critic, let me quote Hosier for a second. A critic open to being remembered wouldn't fare well. A critic whose life is dedicated to criticizing without creation themselves, you ain't gonna last long, mama. And that's you know what? And that's why Charles Mingus was writing letters back to critics, being like, it seems like you have a real Otopus complex because it's like he's reading the girls down because how dare you, how dare you criticize artistry when you yourself are not courageous to embark on something for yourself. Right. It's just and that's not because oh, you can never you can't say anything about my work, it's not about that. You do not know the experience of creation because you are shaking in your boots.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:41

Right. And notice how you didn't say talent.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:44

I couldn't give a shit about your talent.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:47

I don't care. What's talent? What is your talent to me? I could I could have different tastes than you. That does that doesn't fucking matter. We could have completely different references, completely different styles of desire for wanting to write. I don't care about that. There are some people who write very abstract things that I love to visually see because I'm like, damn, I don't make stuff like that, but I can see that this is a creative journey that this person whatever. You know, you know what I mean? It's just yeah, no, talent ain't got shit to do with it. I'm not asking you to be a Pulitzer Prize winner.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:27

I don't even want that for the price. Fuck the Pulitzer anyway.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:29

Fuck the Pulitzer, bitch. I don't want to be a road scholar. I don't wanna be, I don't wanna have a uh fucking award tied to apartheid South Africa. Boots down Boots! I don't want if y'all want y'all y'all wanna have a real fun Google wormhole, go ahead and go ahead and look up who the road scholar was named after. Like go ahead and figure out how closely connected they are to the genocide of South Africans if you want to have fun.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:02

It sounds like a great pastime.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:05

Right. But yeah, and I'm not asking for any of that. I'm asking people to reconnect to themselves so that they can experience the dignity that we are trying to experience for ourselves and our communities by creating something.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:20

Dignity, it's the it's the key word. We were talking about it earlier. All it really is is you know returning to oneself, and if isolation is the is is the the mode you do that, that's fine. However, comma, isolation it is is is not synonymous with keeping the peace. Isolation is not synonymous with oh I'm protecting my peace. It's it's about the dignity, right? Where it's like we're doing the craft because we want to be able to I mean I'm doing the craft because I want to be able to fucking sleep at night. I make the kind of work I make because I want to answer to myself in the fucking mirror. Right? It's not about I make this work so I can please this person or I make this work as you said so I can win this award. It's I'm making the work and doing the work so I'm not losing my mind. Yeah. Absolutely. If that encompasses, you know, my definition of success, if that is what does not make me a loser, I'm fine with that.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:41

Amen. Yeah, I'm I'm glad you said that because it's you know, I there's if anybody follows her, um this I actually I don't know how she identifies as a uh person who previously created content, but this person named Ismatu Gwendolyn. Um Sierra Leonean, I would I would I'm just gonna call her an independent scholar. You know, I don't think that encompasses everything she does, but for the sake of it. Um she's on this really interesting journey um of like basically doing a um what's it called, a post mortem on this kind of internet um brand of Ismatu.gwendolin that she's created to fund the projects that she does in Sl Sierra Leone and um other ventures and stuff. And um it's it's what she she kind of had a little crash out for a moment, but is now doing a uh rightfully, is uh but is continuing this metacognition series, and she literally knows her last video was talking about you know the fear of doing this process of the post-mortem and her just coming down to it and being like, the only answer I have for myself right now is that I want to be on record. Of what my of what I did here. I need it to be on record so that I can look myself, I can be the mirror to myself of this is why we did this. This is this is the value this is the value set, this is the belief set, but also this is how I executed, this is how I rationalize. Like it's very interesting, methodical um reasoning she was giving back to herself of like you, the way you move on is by being on record with what you did. Um I find that really interesting in the a James Baldwin speech that I listened to this morning. Also, he was saying uh virtually the same thing of like his experience of being an artist is very much so different bouts of isolation and exile, and you know, yes, he was in community in some ways, but also very much not. And he is very elusive, extremely elusive man. And he also loved to laugh, he loved to dance, he loved to do all these things. He's yeah, really interesting. I want I really want to dive deeper into who he is as a man, but he in this speech was saying, like, I am a I am an artist, quote unquote. I am a writer because that is it.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:16

Couldn't have said it better myself.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:19

That's it. That's all I have. He did work in factories a couple of times, he's worked in like library, I believe, before, and he's had odd jobs, you know. But he he wrote to have a record. And he wrote to live. I just got chills. Bro, like it's really it's that's what it it also I was like teary-eyed the whole speech because I was like, damn, like that is just that's it. That's so synthesized. I I write to be on record. And that's so tea. Like, uh, and the you know, the meta the meta experience of us recording something right now and talking about being on record. It's very weird, but you know, it's it's T. It's really T. And that's it. That's the best explanation I can come up with, too. It's it's to be on record. To be on record and to do the things, it feels less dignified to live in silence through historic periods as we are living, knowing the skill set that I just have, and just being like, okay, well, this is it. I'm gonna do my best to live off of this record, essentially. But I've tried many methods. I'll I will probably likely try other methods. You know, I'm in and out of organizing quite often, you know. I'm I'm sure that's gonna be a reoccurring thing in my life, but ultimately I keep coming back to this.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:59

Yeah, and I think, you know, the personal rap sheet the the per the personal rap sheet is uh is is is colored and it's it is very uh it is various and it is um it's got loads of uh you know pros and cons, however, comma again.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:21

Um that's the title of our episode.

unknown 1:31:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:25

It's it's really about you know having the courage to do the thing and then having it the courage to be on record doing the thing. And I think, you know, this is a good segue, because you know, we were talking about, you know, place to scream a bit more. We were trying to revisit, you know, these ideas and like the this platform and what we want to do with the space, and you know, it's not to say that we've been afraid to do some of these things necessarily, but you know, it is to say that maybe the time wasn't right, or maybe the space wasn't there yet. And I, you know, I you can look, dear listeners, you can you can look forward to, you know, varying ways that we feel that you know our the skills that we have that have been underutilized, underappreciated, um, and overlooked um can can exist in this space, just like I encourage everyone else listening and anyone else that you know feels this way to to just be able to tell themselves and look in the mirror and say, no, actually, like these skills I do have. This is what I do have, this is what I can do, this is what I have to do. Um, it is my life's duty to do these things, and you know, there will always be people around you that that can look at you and say you're fucking brave. And we're we're gonna we're gonna be doing some things. You gotta y'all gotta stay tuned. Stay plugged in, stay tuned. You gotta stay tuned.