E3: Want to Be a Pastry Chef? CIA Instructor Jesse Jackson III Shares the Truth

In this episode of The Perfect Rise Podcast, Chef Jesse Jackson III, CMB, shares his incredible journey from pastry chef to educator at the Culinary Institute of America (CIA) and Certified Master Baker. Jesse takes us through the challenges and triumphs of his career, offering invaluable advice for aspiring culinary professionals and educators.

Key Takeaways:

• How patience and foundational skills shaped Jesse's career in baking and pastry.
• The importance of embracing mistakes and learning through repetition.
• Insight into the future of culinary education and creativity in the food industry.
• Advice for students thinking about culinary school or transitioning into teaching.
• Why mastering the basics sets you up for success in baking and pastry.

🌟 Whether you’re a culinary student, aspiring baker, or seasoned professional, Jesse’s wisdom will inspire you to take your baking skills to the next level. He also shares personal anecdotes about working in Michelin-level kitchens and how to build a career that aligns with your values.

Listen now to learn how to build a solid foundation for your pastry career and how to transition into becoming a teacher!

About Chef Jesse Jackson III:
Chef Jesse Jackson III is a Baking & Pastry Chef Instructor at the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park, NY. After years of experience as a pastry chef and entrepreneur, Jesse became one of the youngest CIA instructors and one of only two African American Certified Master Bakers. He continues to share his passion for pastry arts while guiding the next generation of culinary professionals.

👉 Don’t miss out! Subscribe for more episodes that empower you to level up in your baking and culinary career.

Grab the Show Notes: Chef Jesse Jackson on the Perfect Rise

#Baking #PastryChef #CulinarySchool #CertifiedMasterBaker #ChefLife #CIAInstructor #CulinaryArts #BakingJourney #CulinaryEducation #FoodEntrepreneurship #ThePerfectRisePodcast

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Chapters

• 0:00 Jesse's Culinary Journey
• 1:32 Lessons in Patience and Technique
• 3:19 Advice for Aspiring Chefs
• 6:12 The Value of Culinary Education
• 9:23 Navigating Career Paths in Culinary
• 13:34 Maximizing Opportunities in Culinary School
• 17:53 Transitioning to Teaching in Culinary Education
• 23:19 Understanding Culinary Fundamentals
• 25:15 The Role of Creativity in Culinary Arts
• 36:58 Advice for Culinary Students
• 41:08 Encouragement for Aspiring Chef Instructors

Transcript

Kimberly Houston (00:01.226)

Alright, welcome back friends. So I just gave you Jesse's introduction. I know you guys are super excited to hear about this. So we're gonna jump right in. So Jesse, can you tell me about your journey? What inspired you to get into the baking slash culinary world?

Jesse Jackson III (00:17.503)

Great question. I went to a vocational school when I was in junior and senior year in high school. And I was part of a culinary arts program that really, really set me apart and took me to the next level and had a better understanding and foundational understanding of culinary arts and baking and pastry. So I actually started out in savory. I did culinary my first year and then we started doing baking my senior year and I was actually really terrible at it. And...

My chef would always put me on cakes. When I was terrible at cutting cakes, I would cry all the time. But she would still put me on there because she wanted me to get it. And I realized one day that this is cake and flour and eggs. I can't let these three ingredients defeat me. So I proverbially took the bull by the horns and said, I'm not taking no for an answer. I'm going to be good at this at some point. And I studied and studied and studied and practiced and practiced and.

I was like, you know what, I can make a career out of this. So I started applying to culinary schools. I got into every school that I applied to and signed up for baking a pastry. And here I am today from that decision. So I'm very, very happy that I stuck with it because times were very hard and tough back then, but I stuck with it and I'm still striving to be the best version of me I can today.

Kimberly Houston (01:38.39)

I love that. That is so similar. That is so similar to me. When I went to culinary school, I remember when we moved into cakes where our chef instructor was like, make that cake your beat. And I was like, man, it was stressing me out because they would like change the temperature of the room while we were decorating cakes or like intentionally walk by and poke it. Like it was madness. And I was like, why do you hate me?

Jesse Jackson III (01:51.659)

Yeah.

Jesse Jackson III (01:57.333)

Mmm.

Kimberly Houston (02:07.0)

Like, what do you do? I'm already nervous. Like, why are y'all messing this up? And so, but the whole sticking with it, I became really, really good at cakes. So I get it. I get it. Yeah, that helps. Okay. So aside from sticking with it, what's probably the biggest lesson you've learned in your career?

Jesse Jackson III (02:07.371)

you

Jesse Jackson III (02:27.263)

Biggest lesson would definitely be patience and getting to understand and learn the techniques and foundations. Nowadays, the students and everyone that's involved, they see everything on TikTok, they see everything on Instagram, they see all these things, the flashy, all these amazing things, right? And they show me these things and they're, I'd love to learn how to do this. Yes, yes, but you have to learn how to walk before you run.

Right? And they show me these photos and pictures and I can pinpoint out each and every technique that they utilize in that photo. They use the creaming method for this. They use the lamination method for this. They use the whipped cream. They have to make a foam for this method. Right? There's all the things that you have to learn and master before you can learn how to run at that level soon. It's everyone wants instant gratification, but understanding that all of the boring, guess, the boring

monotonous jobs of lining tart shells, folding parchment paper, piping eclairs, doing those things over and over and over again. It may be a little bored, but it's building you up to go to the next level that you want to be at. But in order to get to there, you have to learn how to walk first.

Kimberly Houston (03:40.288)

Agree. my gosh, I feel like I'm back in culinary school now. Yes. Agree. And we didn't have TikTok 12 years ago when I was to look around blue. So it was just like, well, this is what I saw on Pinterest or this is what I saw on the internet. And how do I do this? And they were like, when you learn how to make a Swiss meringue buttercream. Yeah, that's, that's why the icing looks like that. But you had to, I had to sit there and learn all of those things. And I was like, I'm never going to use this.

Jesse Jackson III (03:43.509)

Hahaha.

Jesse Jackson III (03:47.881)

Right. Right.

Jesse Jackson III (03:51.881)

Right.

Kimberly Houston (04:09.142)

And I use all of it, all the time, all the way through. Even when you don't think you are, you are definitely using it. What advice would you give someone who is just starting out in the industry?

Jesse Jackson III (04:09.481)

All right.

Jesse Jackson III (04:21.771)

Oh, good one. definitely, know, a lot of people approach me on this and I definitely say, do your best to immerse yourself in everything. Immerse yourself, TV shows, publications, magazines. And when I was a student here, you know, I spent, I was a bit of a nerd, so I spent the weekends in the library looking at old textbooks and magazines from the 80s, 90s, 70s, right? Seeing how trends have evolved from back then, how equipment technology has evolved from back then.

to now, to what's going on in the future. Find a mentor, someone that's in it, in the middle of it, that can give you some guidance on what to do, what not to do, this is what I want to do. Well, before you do that, maybe you focus on doing this. It's very, very hard to navigate because there's so many different avenues you can go down. And now, especially with...

2025 there's even more avenues you can go down as well too. You don't have to be, you can go to a culinary school and not have any intention of being a chef, baker, pastry chef at all. You can do so many different things, food media, writing, front of the house, consulting. There's so many different avenues you can go down now that if you try to look at all of them, you'll get lost or you get confuttled. So it's best to find someone that can give you some guidance on where to start, where you want to end up.

And students always ask me, Chef, how do I choose my extrinship? I have to go on an extrinship. What do I, I don't know what I want to do. I don't know if I like cakes or chocolates. I'm like, well, maybe you should go to a place that does a little bit of everything. So you're exposed to all of it. So you know what you'd want to do, but also as equally as importantly, you may figure out what you don't want to do, which to a lot of people is, is hard to come by, right? You go down this avenue. I don't want to go down this avenue anymore. I want to turn around and go somewhere else.

But sometimes if you don't realize these things, you go so far down that it's too hard to come back and you're stuck. So it's easy to look at all these things, but it's better to find someone that can give you some guidance that's been through it that can provide some insight for you so that way you can follow the correct path that you're destined to find.

Kimberly Houston (06:29.838)

That is such great advice. And I remember asking that question. And I was a late bloomer going to culinary school. And so I already had two kids, right? And when I asked my chef instructor that question, he said, do you want to see your children? And I said, yeah. And he said, don't go work at a hotel. Don't work at a restaurant that's open every holiday. You do not want to be on a Disney cruise ship. Like, yeah, all these things sound great to you. But if you want to see your children,

Jesse Jackson III (06:37.919)

Hmm. Hmm.

Kimberly Houston (06:59.436)

do not go to these places and they were all the top places on my list. And I was like, but, and he was like, if you want to see your kids, don't do this. And that's how I ended up in a bakery unpaid on externship. And I learned more in those 90 days than I learned the whole year that I was in culinary school. I learned so I learned how to run a bakery. They did not teach me that in culinary school. And that's what I learned on externship.

So I think that is incredible advice. You need to know what you do and don't want to do when it comes to this industry. I love that. Okay. So I want to, because you are an educator, I want to kind of pull back the veil a little bit for people. So we're going to talk about education on a couple of levels. First, I want to talk to people who are thinking about going to culinary school, right? Like we know you can be a chef without going to culinary school. And I use that loosely.

Jesse Jackson III (07:28.682)

Absolutely.

Jesse Jackson III (07:33.195)

All right. Exactly.

Jesse Jackson III (07:42.389)

Yes.

Jesse Jackson III (07:57.738)

Absolutely.

Kimberly Houston (07:58.806)

I use that loosely because I went to school, right? And so I use that loosely. But we understand that, you know, TikTok, Instagram, all those things have really ushered in this new wave of food preneurs who do not have formal training. So if people are thinking about whether or not they should or shouldn't, what would you say to them about that?

Jesse Jackson III (08:22.953)

I think the big question would be, and it's a really big question, is what do you want to do? What do you want to do with your education? You just explained it very well that you don't necessarily, education is not for everyone. don't have to go to formal culinary education to become a chef or a pastry chef or baker or whatever it is you want to do in the industry. are plenty of people that have done amazing and had successful careers without going to culinary school.

But for some people, going to culinary school is exactly the environment that they need. The nurture, the environment, the language, the terminology, the structure, the order, the persistence, the repetition. That's everything that a lot of people need to mold themselves in an environment to move on to the next step. Can they get that outside in the industry? Yes, but it's going to take a lot longer time to get to where they want to be.

Now is that okay? If they're okay with that, that's totally fine. But you can definitely tell when working in the industry, the people that have gone to culinary school and those who haven't. And not to say that one is better than the other, that just you can tell by the way they hold themselves, the terminology, the way they explain things, their understanding of how ingredients work and their ingredient functionality. Why this work? Why am gonna use this? Why would I use a potato versus a sweet potato? What's the difference between a sweet potato and a you know, a chef potato? Their starch content.

What is a starch? What is a starch molecule? Learning about all these things, they don't teach you that on the job. The job is, I need this done because server starts at 5 o'clock. I need you to do this as fast as you can. At school, we learn exactly why we need this to be done. And then they also teach you how to have a sense of urgency. And then they combine everything together to make a symbiotic relationship there. So you can definitely tell the difference between the two. I am all for.

formal education because I believe I'm very big person that thrives on structure and order and that's how I run my kitchen. Very, very structured, very, very strategic and planned out. I know every single minute of that class how it's going to run from the moment they walk in, from the moment they leave. And that's how I run the kitchens I was running when I was an executive pastry chef. So transitioning to that from my standpoint of view, from that structured order into the bake shop in a culinary school.

Jesse Jackson III (10:50.675)

was a very easy transition because I can run my class very similar with some deviation like I was running my kitchens in the industry. So I am all for that, you don't necessarily have to go to culinary school, but you need to have some sort of order, some structure. So I would recommend if you're not going to go to culinary school, if you don't have it, can't afford it, which it is very pricey, but is it worth it? I think so.

Kimberly Houston (10:56.29)

Mm-hmm.

Jesse Jackson III (11:18.123)

But if it's not worth it for you, you're not able to afford it, I definitely find an environment that you can learn, you can nurture yourself. One of the things that happened to me when I graduated from CIA, I graduated on a Friday, Friday, March 1st. I moved to Boston on Saturday. On Sunday, I took a day of rest and relaxation.

And that Monday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I had stages and interviews at four different establishments back to back to back. One of them was 13 hours. I was gassed. I was absolutely tired after that one. But that was like this. The Michelin Guide is not in Boston, but if this was a Michelin star restaurant, it would have at least two Michelin stars. So that's the level of the cuisine that they were serving at this place. And I got all four job offers. got.

I'll offer all four jobs and I had to choose which one I wanted to do. And sometimes that's very nerve-racking. Compared to, I don't have a job, I don't know what to do, compared to I have four job offers, I don't know which one to pick. So what I chose, I chose the one that would give me the best experience. Not the best money, not the shortest commute from where I was living, none of that. I was there to get the best experience and I chose that one which was actually a little bit less pay, a little bit less pay than a couple of the others.

But I chose that one because I knew this was going to help me get me to my next step and I was going to get a good experience from working here. So I always explain that to everyone is try and understand where it is that you would like to go and don't deviate from that path that you set for yourself. Everyone already has a path already destined for them. It's up to you whether you're going to follow that path or make deviations or take detours on that path. But the objective there is to...

choose strategic jobs that are positions that were going to set you up for your next position. Always thinking about the next step. So that way you're never, you're always going to be going up. And even if any job I've ever taken has always been either a step above or a lateral move, never downwards. So I knew that.

Jesse Jackson III (13:30.898)

whatever job that I ever took was always going to put me into the next step. Sometimes, you know, this job work environment is not working well for me. I need to transition. I'm not ready for the next step, but I still have things to learn. I'm going to make a lateral move to another place, better environment, perhaps better pay, better nurturing environment. So that way when I move on to my next step, when I move on to my sous chef or head pastry chef role, I'm going to be ready for that. And then I'll be take the next step and so on and so forth.

Kimberly Houston (13:59.168)

I love that and I fully, I fully get it. I understand even, I never went the route of working for someone else. I just literally went into entrepreneurship and working for myself. But I think that's almost harder because who is enforcing the structure? And I had to enforce the structure on myself in building out my business. And I think that really helps me stand apart from the other people that I graduated with.

Jesse Jackson III (14:16.874)

right?

Kimberly Houston (14:28.364)

because my business was really, really successful for 10 years and a lot of them closed their businesses or were working other places or moved into a different industry within like five years. And I'm like, that was a lot of money for culinary school. We gon' do this until the wheels fall off. And that's exactly what I did. I think that is excellent, excellent. The thing I do wanna say, so for people who are listening to this and they're, you know, they may be.

are in culinary school currently we have lots of students in the RBA. If they're currently in culinary school what advice would you give them from the the view of the chef instructor? What will help them be successful?

Jesse Jackson III (15:13.461)

My biggest advice would be take advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you. But also take advantage of the opportunities that are not directly in front of you. You have to seek them out. They're calling a school at that collegiate level, right? It's a college, right? You're supposed to enjoy your college year because after this four years, become an adult, a full adult, full on adult, or taxes and utilities and mortgages and all these other things. Hopefully these things happen to you later on in life.

Right, but your objective is to enjoy college, right? So there are a lot of students here that want the full college experience, but there's nothing wrong with that. However, right, these four years, these pivotal years here are in college, right, are gonna set you up for the rest of your life, the rest of your career, essentially. So why not take advantage of opportunities that are presented? You know, we are here at TAA, we are 90 minute train ride from New York City.

New York City, the biggest city, the greatest city in the world, right? Especially for food, right? The greatest bakeries in the world, the greatest restaurants, three-milli-star restaurants. Why not take a train ride on the weekend? Offer to work in a restaurant, know, or stag at a restaurant on the weekend. To say you stag there, to get that experience of, right, I'm not wasting any time. oh, I stag at a three-milli-star restaurant. Now I realize that's not what I want to do. I want to do something else. But at least you got that experience. It only took one weekend away from your time, from your personal time.

to experience this. But also, I'm a chef instructor here. I teach a certain amount of classes here as well too. But my scope of knowledge, my scope of expertise, is not just what I teach in that class. I have a vast array of knowledge on many different other things, baking and pastry related. And some non-baking pastry related. I love barbecue. My favorite thing to do outside of baking pastry, barbecue and pizza. I am very, very proficient in both of those things. But if no one ever asked me about those things,

they're not gonna get that information. So my biggest advice is talk to your chefs on a professional level and perhaps maybe you could become a more personal level and you get to understand them, who they are, how they got to where they are and what journeys that they took and where to go, where not to go and things, how to connect with certain people and building those relationships can definitely benefit you in the long run. There are some chefs that I had in culinary school that

Kimberly Houston (17:11.726)

Mm-hmm.

Jesse Jackson III (17:38.742)

Some of them I still work with now. But other, and I also went to Johnson Wells too that I'm very friendly with and I reach out to them, they reach out to me. Job opportunities, scholarship opportunities for other students. Hey, do you know anyone that works in Utah? you know, I have a friend that works in Utah. Let me give him a call. You know what mean? It's just treating that community, right? But if I didn't build that relationship with that person or that particular team of individuals, right? That would have never happened. So.

take advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you that are, you're able to, they're being provided to you because there is gold sitting right in front of you. You just have to pick it up and take it.

Kimberly Houston (18:19.402)

Agreed. Agreed. when I think about that, I'm like, man, I'm still friends with like the chefs who were instructing me 12 years ago on Facebook. Like, and if I ever have a question or if I can't find something or even like right now, right, with the price of things going up, I'm like, everybody's freaking out. This isn't the first time eggs have skyrocketed. This isn't the first time butter has skyrocketed. Right. And so what you can ask these people. So what do we do? How do we, you know,

Jesse Jackson III (18:27.647)

Right?

Kimberly Houston (18:48.396)

I know we didn't talk about this in school, but can you give me some business advice on how we do these things? All of those sorts of things come up even for me a decade later when I'm thinking about, well, what's the next move or what's the state of the industry right now? I think students should absolutely be networking fully with other students and with the faculty at the schools, because they know a whole lot more than you do. Okay, so.

Jesse Jackson III (19:10.059)

Absolutely.

Kimberly Houston (19:19.266)

We're gonna shift our education conversation because there may be people who currently have bakeries that have been in the industry for a while and they're transitioning and they are thinking about, I know a whole lot of stuff. Like I'm good. I've run my bakery for 10 years, 12 years, 20 years. I would love to give forward to the next generation. What advice would you give people who want to move into teaching on the collegiate level?

Jesse Jackson III (19:46.613)

Great question.

Really great question. I'm gonna say from my experience, know, I also happen, so I'm an instructor here, but I also happen to be, all those instructors are on some sort of committee, right? So we all have committee meetings periodically, once or twice a month throughout each semester. And I happen to be on the Baking Pacey Search Committee. So any person that applies to CIA for Baking Pacey position, right, they get screened through HR and they get sent to the Baking Pacey Search Committee.

We conduct the interviews, right? They have a practical exam that they come in through that is formulated by the committee. So I get to see it from both sides as an interviewee, but now as an interviewer. So now, from my experience on the Baking Paces Search Committee, it takes a special kind of someone to pull a chef out of a restaurant and put them in a classroom, so to speak.

in our case from a bakery or restaurant into a bake shop here at CIA. So just because you have a great amount of experience, just because you have a great personality doesn't necessarily mean you're qualified to work here. It has to have a great fit. My biggest advice for a chef position or chef instructor position is the knowledge.

You have to understand the knowledge of why we do certain things a certain way. Because the students will definitely ask you, Chef, why does this happen? Chef, why does sugar caramelize? Chef, why do we add flour to something? If I add too much flour, does it get too dry? What in flour dries things out? So understanding the functionality of your ingredients so that you, from a professional standpoint of view, can explain the whys to the students. I've worked in so many places. I'm sure you have as well,

Jesse Jackson III (21:43.244)

that when you ask the question of why is this this way, the answer you get is, this is the way I was taught. this is way Chef Johnnie showed me, so I'm going to show you this way too. But they couldn't fundamentally explain to you why we do this a specific way. And certain things I understand, that's the way. I like this to be organized this way because this is way I would like it to be organized. I have a specific system. But if for some reason I

want you to mix the bread dough for five minutes instead of four minutes, why the extra minute of time? Why not 30 seconds? Why not 15? Why not two minutes? Why one extra minute? I want to understand why. So having understanding of ingredient functionality and functionality of tools and equipment, and it's going to come down to personality as well too. I can't be that rigid, those scary French chefs that

that we all grew up learning about, know, from all the movies that we watch and see that everyone's so scared of that. You can't do that, you know, not anymore at least. So the personality does have a play into that, but it's about your knowledge as well too. For the search committee, you know, there's two parts of the practical that you have to take. There is a baking practical that you produce a certain amount of criteria for the baking pastry faculty, croissant,

Kimberly Houston (22:44.515)

Yes.

Jesse Jackson III (23:07.017)

the entremet and p'tit gâteau, baguettes, There's certain amount of things that you are required to produce for the faculty to showcase your baking skills. And then also you're on the second day of the practical exam, you have to teach a class to a group of students. So it assesses your baking skills, your practicality skills, but also your teaching skills as well too, right? The students are going to, will be prompted to ask the candidate questions based off of what the criteria is.

and the instructor or whoever the candidate is had better be able to answer them to answer the students question. Now the faculty members in the back while they're watching this as well too, they may ask them questions as well, right? We know the answer, but we're seeing that we're looking to see if they know the answers well too to explain to the students. Cause sometimes the students that stand there and look at them, right? Without saying anything. So we kind of prompt the questions that come out. So it's more so about that practical will really assess your teaching skills and your practicality skills, your hand skills.

From my standpoint of view, we can teach you how to teach, and that's something that you gain as you become more experienced as an instructor. But I can't teach you how to bake. That's something you have to be proficient in as soon as you walk in the door. that's been a common misunderstanding that people come in without the proper skill set. I've got a great personality. I've taught classes before, right? Yes, but you have to be able to do the job.

You have to be able to produce the product from a master or a very highly proficient standpoint of view from there. So definitely, if you're looking to become an instructor, really, really hammer down your skills. Make sure your repetition, repetition, your master and proficient in all aspects of baking a pastry, chocolate, sugar, laminated doughs, eclair, pate a choux, cake decorating, entremets, glazing, all those different things.

multifaceted and all those areas and then the teaching right you ever not everyone can teach right but Understanding the fundamental knowledge of each and every aspect of those to be able to teach it to someone that has no idea What chocolate is what is chocolate? Who is Santa Claus right? How do you how do you explain it without using the word in the sentence right? What is chocolate? Well chocolate is chocolate How do you explain how chocolate is without using how do you explain what flower is without using the word flower in description?

Jesse Jackson III (25:35.029)

to someone that has no idea. So being able to do that really set you apart, gets you the opportunity.

Kimberly Houston (25:43.47)

love that. And so for those of you who are listening and you want to be an instructor at CIA, you just got the cheat codes on what to do. And at this point, I'm sitting here like, let me go pull out my books. They're right behind me on the bookshelf. They're at the bottom. I'm like, I remember all of those things. Even in the chocolate conversation, my chef did not describe chocolate as chocolate. Like we had to learn the percentages. We had to learn where it came from. We needed to know how much.

Jesse Jackson III (25:50.943)

Yeah.

Jesse Jackson III (26:09.547)

Exactly.

Kimberly Houston (26:11.886)

cocoa powder was in it, or you know, like all these different things. And I'm like, you know, it wasn't just chocolate. Like the temperature of the room makes a difference. If it was raining, it made a difference in what the recipe was doing. And my chefs could fully explain to us why more moisture in the air was going to affect what you were making, right? And so all of those things that like are not necessarily, I don't even remember that being in the book.

Jesse Jackson III (26:30.869)

Right? Right?

Kimberly Houston (26:37.934)

I just remember that being like, no, we were in class one night and it was raining and everybody's stuff was messing up. And he was like, it's the moisture in the air. Like here's how you fix it. Or maybe you don't make this right now and you wait until the temperature like levels out or there's not so much moisture in the air. Like all of those things. I remember that. And it used to drive me nuts in school, even in chocolate when he was like, you have hot hands, go stand in the cooler.

Jesse Jackson III (26:44.459)

Right.

Jesse Jackson III (27:01.675)

Yeah.

Kimberly Houston (27:08.172)

Like everything melts, like those types of things. How do you walk people through understanding that you're nervous and your body temperature raise and that's why your buttercream is melting. That's why it's separated. Like how do you fix those things? So I think that's super important for people to understand. You need to be able to explain that, not just say, yeah, that happens sometimes, but why? Like, but why? So I think that is super, super cool. I love this conversation.

Jesse Jackson III (27:31.787)

Exactly.

Kimberly Houston (27:37.676)

Let's see, which way do you wanna go? Okay, so let's talk about creativity. And let's talk about creativity in more than one way. So first we'll start with creativity in the industry, where do you think it's going? The trends that your students are showing you, the things that you're seeing, how do you feel about the level of creativity? And then we'll talk about how does creativity play a part as an instructor.

Jesse Jackson III (27:38.015)

No.

Jesse Jackson III (27:42.559)

Yes.

Jesse Jackson III (28:03.775)

I am actually fascinated with creativity and there are so many different things. Young people, I have two young sons, one is 10, one is four, and then I know people that are in their 80s and 90s and how you talk and converse with them, however old they are and however much years of experience they have in life and their career or whatever. There's always a level of creativity.

I'm just fascinated with that, how someone that, right, that we don't share the same language, but this person is a master artist, this person's a master race car driver, you know? And just talking about that creativity or just innovative ways on a doctor or medical procedures that, know, creativity is such a fascinating thing to me and it really blows my mind, especially in my industry where

Sometimes the students will teach me things that I've never seen before or have yet to see. And I'm on Facebook, Instagram, these social media websites that I get to see a lot of things that are going on around the world, which, like as you said 12 years ago, we didn't have that. You had to look at the magazines, the textbooks, you had to buy them, So Good magazine, all these, Pastry Art and Design magazine. Now I can see exactly what's happening in Japan, China, France, Italy, Germany, right now from my phone.

or from my computer and see exactly what's happening over there and what they're specifically over there in terms of creativity. dealing with students that come from all different facets of the world. Students come from all over the world and I love asking, where's home for you? Where do you come from? Where's your head to? Where do you come to CAA from? And there's always a story behind it. And I love talking to our, especially international students that always have.

great stories, great recipes. I had a student from Saudi Arabia that she loves me, right? She loved taking my class and she phoned home and she had shipped in some Saudi Arabian dates, especially for me, that they use in Saudi Arabia that I'd never seen before. I worked with dates before, but she gave me like three different kinds of dates that I didn't know there's more than one kind, right? But they teach, they are able to teach me so many different things and

Jesse Jackson III (30:23.691)

especially international students, they have so many different heritages and all these different fantastic fine dining desserts and snacks and candies that we don't have here. Here we have Cheez-Its and Snickers bars, but over there they have actual candy. They have actual desserts that they make or their grandmother makes or they go to a shop or they only, this dessert is only served on this specific day or part time of the year. These are all things that I love learning about and that helps me become a better educator as well too. But just because you're a student,

doesn't necessarily mean that you have nothing to teach at all either. And I learned, my four year old son, he's really bossy, but he teaches me things as well too. Patience, right? I have to be very patient with him, but he teaches me to be aware of my surroundings as well too. He's so short, I I don't know, I chip over him in two seconds. So be aware of my surroundings, use your polite voice when you're talking, be mindful of.

what movies you're watching because he will repeat words from certain movies that you don't want him to. But, you know, creativity all ties into that and I enjoy being in that aspect and learning about new ways of being creative. you know, part of the thing when I was a culinary student is yes, yes, yes, creativity, but also understanding the basics and foundations and why they are the way that they are. And then finding a way that I can use what I know to figure out what I don't know.

Kimberly Houston (31:26.435)

Yes.

Jesse Jackson III (31:50.568)

Is there way I can break this thing, this fundamental technique that I know or this fundamental product that I know works fine? Can I break it down to a scientific or molecular level and build it back up into a new different way, or form that will be essentially better? Maybe, maybe not, right? Have the user creativity. When I was a pastry chef in Boston, I really wanted to do this deconstructed banana split dessert.

I've always loved bananas, as everyone's seen, know, the two bananas with the chocolate vanilla strawberry ice cream with the whipped cream and the cherry on top, everyone loves that. Right. And I did it two different times at two different restaurants. And both times I had to take the dessert off the menu because people were actually expecting a banana split. So they didn't understand the aspect of deconstructed. And I put so much thought into all these different components and textures and hydrocolloids and doing all these fancy and amazing things. But

Kimberly Houston (32:38.369)

Thank

Jesse Jackson III (32:49.577)

Nobody wanted to eat it or they sent it back because they didn't understand it. So what they all get to do that dessert the way I want it to but and evolve it to the way I want to but utilizing creativity really, really is fundamental there and understanding that, you know, there's there's foundations but there's also ways you can push the bubble, push the button a little bit and go color outside the lines a little bit and see what happens.

Kimberly Houston (33:14.432)

Mm-hmm. Fully agree. And that made me think about understanding color theory, right? Like, if you don't understand the primary colors, you're going to have a hard time matching whatever a bride brings you for her wedding cake. And it's like, can't... You know, one of these people, when I was teaching classes, people were always like, well, I'm just going to add this red to this white. No, you're not. It's going to be pink.

Jesse Jackson III (33:24.071)

Absolutely.

Kimberly Houston (33:44.118)

Like the same thing still apply. You cannot put red food coloring into white frosting you think is going to be red. That's not how this works. Like we need to do two steps. Make it pink first, it pink, and then add the red, right? But if you don't understand the fundamentals of the things, then you can't figure out, what do I need to add to this to make it this color? Black is another one. You cannot add black to white. It's going to be gray. I don't care what you do. I don't care how much you add to it. It's going to be gray. It just is.

But are there ways you can make frosting black? Yes, it's just not adding black dye to it, right? But if people don't understand that, then you are wasting product and you are wasting time. And I think one of the biggest lessons that people can take away from this podcast particularly is we encourage creativity, but if you don't have the foundational aspects of things, then the creativity won't work.

The other thing I would say is you should just shoot a TikTok video for your deconstructed, uh, and then it doesn't matter. Then people will get it. I'm just, I'm just saying, turn into content creation. It's, you know, that's what I transitioned into.

Jesse Jackson III (34:49.643)

That's fantastic idea,

Jesse Jackson III (34:56.755)

You know, I will say that there's a concept, there's a nerve in your brain called the trigeminal nerve. And the trigeminal nerve creates a trigeminal response called the trigeminal response that when it comes to food to basically break it down in simple layman terms is there are certain foods will give you a perception of a temperature based off of what it is that you're eating.

Kimberly Houston (35:25.582)

you

Jesse Jackson III (35:26.143)

So like mint, mint is not cold at all, right? But it gives you the cooling effect. That's the trigeminal response. Cinnamon or clove, right? They're not hot at all in terms of temperature, right? But when I put those on my tongue, it's hot. So there are ways that you can utilize the trigeminal response that can affect the way the flavor compounds of a dish to work. Now, due to the trigeminal response, there are ways to affect people's emotions

Kimberly Houston (35:35.854)

I'm

Jesse Jackson III (35:56.374)

based off of the trigeminal response. So, a mint, if I have a mint mojito by the beach, that's gonna relax me a little bit too. Where if I have a hot cinnamon drink or hot cinnamon tea during the winter time, that's gonna warm me up, but also keep me warm and cozy, fill me in a better mood rather than being shivering cold. So, there's ways you can affect people's emotions by the food that they eat, and that is exactly what they do in Michelin-starred restaurants.

Kimberly Houston (36:25.742)

Mm-hmm.

Jesse Jackson III (36:25.877)

which people don't understand. It's all about the experience, but that's what they do. And that's why the people keep coming back. And that's why it has that such a notoriety. I want to go spend $600 to $1,000 on this meal because of the that they environment, the way it made me feel. Yes, I have 20 different courses, but each course is only a bite or a bite and a half. But the way it made me feel, set me up for the next course and the course after that and the course after that. And I didn't feel full at the end of them. I felt perfectly full. I didn't feel bloated or.

Kimberly Houston (36:43.8)

Mm-hmm.

Jesse Jackson III (36:53.597)

Overly full, I felt exactly where I wanted to be and I felt good because my emotions were tickled and played with a little bit specifically and intrinsically in that specific way, strategically in that specific way for a reason for you to enjoy it at that specific level. But I enjoy it, that has to do with creativity, right? Playing with the trigeminal response on each person's nerve endings will alter how they perceive the meal to be eaten.

Kimberly Houston (37:23.118)

love that in my brain literally just saw a ratatouille. At the very end, when he takes that bite, I was like, no, literally. That entire experience, I'm like, that's what want people to think about whenever they eat my food. But same thing, I love that you explained that. That's a freebie for y'all. That wasn't even a part of our questions, but that was so good. I love it so much. Okay, so as we bring this to a close,

Jesse Jackson III (37:26.699)

Exactly. Yes. Yes.

Kimberly Houston (37:50.83)

I want you to give some parting words, one to students. Because from the educator perspective, I remember culinary school. I do. And it was probably one of the toughest seasons of my life. It was hard. It wasn't, no, it was hard. And it was definitely one of those, I was a really good baker. What do you mean? I was a straight A student.

Jesse Jackson III (38:13.826)

Hahaha.

Kimberly Houston (38:20.236)

And then I get in culinary school. I remember getting a B on my cookie practical and I cried. My feelings were so hurt because what do you mean I got a B on cookies? Like I do cookies. And I had to figure out why I got a B. Or like I went to the library, I met with my instructor, like I don't understand. Like I got an A on other stuff I could care less about. Why did get a B on this? And it was because I knew so much about it. I was in my head when I made it.

Jesse Jackson III (38:30.731)

Right. Exactly.

Kimberly Houston (38:49.6)

And so I had to like take a step back and she was like, you were sewing your, she was like, I looked at your face while you were doing it. And I saw when you messed up and she was like, but you weren't paying attention. You were like, yeah, this is going to be great. And then I got to be. And so I was like, this, this is not wonderful. It broke my heart. It hurt my feelings. and I also ended up on bed rest for six weeks during culinary school because I could not stand up straight. And I remember taking the test. did get an A on that.

Jesse Jackson III (39:07.188)

BOOM

Kimberly Houston (39:18.752)

I took my final and my chef looked at me and said, go directly to the emergency room. And I was on bed rest for six weeks with an inflamed sciatic nerve. And so culinary school was a, it was a tough period, right? However, however I do it again. I would totally do it again because I learned so much about myself. I learned a lot about chemistry.

Jesse Jackson III (39:19.424)

Ha

Jesse Jackson III (39:39.335)

You

Kimberly Houston (39:47.254)

I learned a lot about science. I didn't think I was good at math until I went to culinary school and had to do ratios and percentages. I was like, man, I'm a fuck out for the math part, but I didn't. Like I became a tutor for other people and it really changed my opinion of what chef life looks like compared to what you think is happening inside of a bakery. So if you could give advice to

Jesse Jackson III (39:55.436)

Exactly. Yes.

Kimberly Houston (40:16.522)

students or people who are just starting out, I would love for you to do that.

Jesse Jackson III (40:21.897)

Absolutely. I think you said it really best and I can picture back to my days in culinary school about going through similar situations, pulling my hair out, nerve wracking about this test I have in chocolate that I know is going to be really, really difficult or this practical I have in my waiting cakes class that I know is, I only have a certain amount of time but I want to do so much but I have to fit all this in. My hands can only go so fast making these gum paste roses.

Advice would be, especially in culinary school, take the time. Yes, I want you to have a great sense of urgency, but take the time to learn these things now because school is where you're supposed to make mistakes. And I tell my students on day one, I want you to make mistakes. I want you to burn the pastry cream. I want you to overbake your muffins so you understand, number one, how to use a timer, but also understand what happens when these things occur.

Is there a way I can prevent this from happening? But a lot of the times when these things happen, students are moving way too fast. Slow down, take the time to learn the fundamentals now, and then gradually speed up and go on from there. And it's really easy to see that when they perform that in class too. The first time they make something, and then the second time, and then the third time, they get faster each and every time. The first time, they're unfamiliar with it. They're unfamiliar with the directions on the formula.

Kimberly Houston (41:27.32)

Mm-hmm.

Jesse Jackson III (41:47.592)

The second time, okay, I'm a little bit more comfortable now. And then the third time, they're proficient. Third time, you see those shoulders relax a little bit. When they're making that pastry, the shoulders relax. But the first time, I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no idea if I'm whisking this properly, is my heat the right temperature? But as you become more confident, you become better at it. And I say this concept in my class a lot, it's quantity over quality. The more times you do something, the better you become at it naturally. You don't have to rush.

Kimberly Houston (41:54.616)

Thank

Jesse Jackson III (42:17.109)

Just do things more, try and fit in more times. Spend your extra time on the weekends. Instead of laying down playing Mario Kart, maybe bake a batch of pastry cream. Maybe pipe some eclairs. And I have students that come in on a free day that will just pipe eclairs for three hours long. Don't bake, not bake. They'll just scrape them up, put them back in the bag, and pipe, pipe, pipe, pipe, pipe, full sheet tray over and over again to become proficient in squeezing and the hand pressure and the motion and how to cut it off properly and twist it.

just to become proficient at that. And those students will always statistically do better than the ones that don't. So quantity over quality, slow down, and as you described there, listen to your body. You want to push yourself. All my job, I always push my students a lot. I push them a lot beyond their boundaries. And I know when to push and pull a little bit. I know the limits where I can go to. But it has to be, it's a two-way street. I need them to be able to push themselves as well, too.

And you have to push yourself a little bit beyond your comfort level. And that's how that's how anything grows. Right. That's how muscle grows when you're working out. Right. The muscle will either grow or will die. Right. Now, hopefully with this something happened in baking pastry. But it works similarly in that concept where you have to push yourself and push yourself beyond what you think is probable. Just a little bit to make yourself a little uncomfortable to make yourself better to make yourself grow. But.

When your body needs rest, you need to give your body rest. And a lot of time, and I am a very big victim of this, I did not listen to my body. And my body shut down whenever it wanted to at the least opportune time. So you don't want that to happen at all, because that's a very big inconvenience. And now you're even worse than you were before. So listen to your body. And yeah.

Kimberly Houston (44:10.158)

That's so good. My other question was going to be parting words, it going to be for people who want to be chef instructors, but I feel like this rolls over into that too. Like this will take you out of your comfort zone. And if during the part where we were discussing what the CIA is looking for in their chef instructors, you know, being a member of the RBA, we have study hall, like we have videos that help you to prepare for things like that. So if that's a thought process for you.

Jesse Jackson III (44:10.708)

Yeah!

Kimberly Houston (44:38.222)

then you might need to go outside of your comfort zone and kind of tap into those resources that you can have. you know, luckily for us, the RBA provides some of those resources. So I think that is so, so incredible. This has been so fun. Thank you so much for joining us on The Perfect Rise. I love this so much. We might have to come back and do another one. Yeah, I feel like we could go.

Jesse Jackson III (44:48.339)

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jesse Jackson III (44:54.943)

Yeah!

My pleasure.

Jesse Jackson III (45:04.203)

Round two, okay. Let's do it.

Kimberly Houston (45:08.224)

so deep into all the things making a pastry. So if you guys listening have any questions you can definitely shoot them to us. You can send them to kimberly at retailbakersofamerica.org or just hit reply wherever you are seeing this. I'll be watching for comments on all of our social platforms and we will definitely get those answered for you. Jesse thank you so much for joining me on today's podcast. Until next time stay sweet friends.

Jesse Jackson III (45:09.948)

yeah, I got plenty more.

Jesse Jackson III (45:32.971)

My pleasure.