Beyond the Lab: Entrepreneurship with David Nathan. CEO of Scaler Marketing.

In this episode, we explore the entrepreneurial journey of David Nathan, a founder with a deep-rooted passion for the life sciences, stemming from his childhood experiences in labs at Princeton and New England Bio Labs. David details his path from working various roles in science and sales, to founding scaler, a life science-focused agency. He highlights key moments, including his transformative experience with Amway, practical strategies for scaling his business, and the challenges of maintaining a positive mindset amidst financial and operational hurdles. The conversation also delves into the impact of AI on SEO, and concludes with insights into David's role in the sales and marketing organization, SAMS. Throughout, the importance of perseverance, adaptability, and community support is emphasized as critical elements for entrepreneurial success.

00:00 Introduction and LinkedIn Activity
01:36 Early Life and Scientific Background
03:34 Career Journey and Defining Moments
06:18 Starting Scaler and Entrepreneurial Challenges
08:56 Overcoming Doubts and Finding Success
13:17 Support Systems and Motivation
15:03 Persistence and Business Growth
17:51 The Entrepreneurial Mindset
19:17 Building and Scaling a Team
23:55 Navigating SEO in the Age of AI
30:45 The Role of Sams in Science Marketing
34:03 Final Thoughts and Future Conversations

Transcript

[00:00:00] Patrick: Well, nice to finally meet you.

[00:00:02] David Nathan: Likewise

[00:00:04] Patrick: Yes. I've been seeing, you've been doing some good things on LinkedIn, by the way, how long has it been that you've been active on LinkedIn?

[00:00:12] David Nathan: active on LinkedIn probably.

[00:00:15] Patrick: like truly active.

[00:00:16] David Nathan: Truly active probably about eight years when I started scaler.

[00:00:22] Patrick: Wow.

[00:00:22] David Nathan: So I was on there before that, but I wouldn't say I was terribly active 'cause I didn't really have a reason to be. But I saw LinkedIn as a really good way to get in front of the people that I wanted to be working with.

[00:00:34] Patrick: Sales and marketing 1 0 1.

[00:00:37] David Nathan: Right.

[00:00:37] Patrick: I have only started being truly active since I started North Star and it's been pretty revolutionary, especially as a entrepreneur and as a businessman, you gotta be in front of your audience, some days

[00:00:50] David Nathan: Yeah, I mean

[00:00:51] Patrick: more comfortable than others, but think we all go through

[00:00:54] David Nathan: there's definitely ups and downs and sometimes I'll post something and think, you know what? This is gonna do really well and. Nobody seems to care. And some days it's the opposite. And sometimes I look at people and they post something. I was like, there's nothing revolutionary about that. But they're getting 150 likes, like, what the heck is that all about?

[00:01:13] David Nathan: And I was like, I could say the same thing. And, you know, it's all a process. It's one giant networking event. Hosted online, and that's kind of how you have to look at it. It's about making connections and being creative and trusting the process but. You gotta do as, much as you can without destroying yourself in the process.

[00:01:34] Patrick: Looks like you've had a passion for the life sciences or the sciences for a long time. I mean, you were even a lab technician at some point, and I'm sure that's helped you in some shape or form throughout your career, just in like scientific discussions. And, tell me what caught you into science in the first place?

[00:01:52] Patrick: Is this something you knew as like a 3-year-old? Okay, I want be. I'm gonna save the world type thing or what?

[00:01:57] David Nathan: So I think my earliest introductions were I was actually born on Princeton University campus. My father was getting a PhD in molecular biology. So technically I was born in the hospital, but. I, you know, my first five years of my life, I think I might've been conceived on Princeton University campus, but that's, that's a separate issue.

[00:02:20] David Nathan: But I grew up in the labs. I mean, I was a little kid walking into labs. We moved to the Boston area when I was five. My father had a postdoc at New England Bio Labs, and spent his entire career there. He just retired a few years ago. From 30 plus years at New England Biolabs, and I was the little kid coming in after school and putting my hand in a Petri dish and coming back a week later and seeing all the gross stuff that grew on it.

[00:02:47] David Nathan: And every year for the candy sale, I'd be walking through the labs selling candy bars to everybody. So it is just kinda what I knew what I grew up. Around. I was also always really interested in life and nature and, you know, the outdoors. So I saw all of that as part of the same thing. To be honest, when I had to pick a major in college, I didn't really know what to do.

[00:03:16] David Nathan: I wasn't convinced and I certainly didn't wanna go to med school. That was never really on my radar. I didn't know that I wanted to do research. I picked biology 'cause it seemed like it was probably relevant to something that I might wanna do one day. And then it was three years after college.

[00:03:32] David Nathan: So I graduated, I spent a year in Costa Rica taking people on hikes through the rainforest. I spent a year working as an intern for the Consortium for the Barcode of Life that was housed out of the Natural History Museum in Washington, dc. And then I was spending a year as a lab tech for a marine biologist at the University of Aiken in South Carolina, thinking that marine biology might be what sparks my passion.

[00:03:57] David Nathan: 'cause I never felt passionate about it. And I would always look around and see people who are so absorbed in their research and could really dig in and look at the minute details of what they were doing and how it all fit together. And I just never. I always questioned whether I was either stupid or lazy because I didn't find myself caring enough to dig in as much as they did.

[00:04:21] David Nathan: And I remember sitting there one day listening to the professor next door to our lab talking about this new thing they were working on, and he was so excited about it, and I was having that moment of what. Is wrong with me. Why don't I feel that? And I remember so vividly that specific moment thinking, I think I'm just not meant to work at a lab bench.

[00:04:43] David Nathan: Like, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Clearly he is, there must be something else I'm passionate about. And so I started branching out. I started looking into sales and marketing and business development and I had a lot of really, really valuable experiences that came out of that defining moment for me.

[00:05:03] David Nathan: And then when I started scaler, you know, part of it was I still like science, I still love it. I still think there's value in it. It's certainly my background, right? So, you know, spent a lot of money on college. I should probably use it for something. And I also, to be totally honest, I saw an opening in the sciences where I think there's a lot of amazing companies that don't do an amazing job of telling their story, and I didn't see a lot of agencies out there that were willing to try to have those conversations.

[00:05:36] David Nathan: With scientific companies. I think it's not the easiest thing for a lot of people to wrap their head around. And I had a background in it, you know, I wasn't a PhD, I wasn't the best biology student, but I know enough to ask questions and to be willing to ask questions. And that all started to come together about five years ago when our portfolio started being more revolving around scientific companies to the point where beginning of 23, we said, you know what, we are a life science company, science and technology a little bit more broadly, but we're a life science company. If I go to an event, it's gonna be science focused. And that's basically how we've positioned ourselves at this point.

[00:06:15] Patrick: Wow. Okay. Well, before we dive into scaler a bit, so did you, did I hear that right? Once you had that epiphany, instead of trying your hand at the corporate world to get your feet wet or whatever, you decided to start scaler right

[00:06:30] David Nathan: No,

[00:06:31] Patrick: an

[00:06:31] David Nathan: no, it was, it was a long time after that. So the first thing I did was a friend of mine when I was in DC doing that internship a friend of mine from high school had reached out and said that she had been working with the business team selling nutrition products. And at the time I kinda, you know, I brushed it off.

[00:06:49] David Nathan: I mean, we were good friends, but I didn't know what it was. I was doing that internship. I was working at a restaurant, you know, I wasn't in a head space to really take anything seriously, to be totally honest with you. But as soon as I had that moment, one of the first things I did was reach out to her.

[00:07:02] David Nathan: I was like, you know what, maybe I'll look into that. So I called her up. Turns out it was Amway and it was a multi-level marketing business, which I like. I kind of. I had heard of these things, I kind of knew enough to think that I should be careful. You know, there was water at the back of the room and I'm like, I shouldn't drink the water just in case.

[00:07:22] David Nathan: You know, I don't know what they do to it, but I remember sitting in the plan and hearing it and thinking it was one of the most remarkable things I'd ever seen. Like nobody had ever told me that you could do stuff like this and sell products and build teams and make a lot of money and design your life.

[00:07:38] David Nathan: The way you wanted it designed that you didn't have to just follow the typical path that everybody tells you you have to follow. So I ended up being involved with them for three years. That was why when I left South Carolina, I then went to New Jersey to be closer to that core team.

[00:07:54] David Nathan: And I learned a ton. You know, I didn't do particularly well, but it was a very defining period of my life where I learned, amazing information that I would've never learned otherwise. And that definitely led to other areas of my life. I took a course at Harvard Extension about nonprofit management.

[00:08:12] David Nathan: I ended up managing a teen program for three years after I moved back to Boston. Where, you know, I was growing. I really saw the success of that revolving around branding and storytelling and networking and getting in front of the audience that we were targeting and creating events and classes that were exciting for people.

[00:08:31] David Nathan: And then that led to my last job, which was four years in Los Angeles, directing sales and marketing for a manufacturing company. Selling outdoor and tactical gear. So, completely unrelated, but it was when I left that company that I moved back to Boston, so that was eight years ago. Left that company, moved back to Boston to start scaler.

[00:08:51] David Nathan: It's kind of very roundabout way of getting there. But yeah.

[00:08:54] Patrick: That's so funny 'cause you know, I have almost like parallel stories where I was in a lab too and I realized a little early on than you that, you know, that wasn't the life for me.

[00:09:04] David Nathan: Yeah.

[00:09:04] Patrick: Also fell into I. What's it called? I don't wanna say pyramid scheme, but you know, like an Amway

[00:09:10] David Nathan: Multi-level marketing.

[00:09:12] Patrick: multilevel

[00:09:12] David Nathan: Yeah, corporate America is the pyramid scheme. If you wanna really,

[00:09:16] Patrick: true. You're

[00:09:16] David Nathan: be.

[00:09:17] Patrick: that's what you find out. Yeah. But like yourself, that kind of opened my mind like, oh my God, you don't have to conform and serve the regular way of doing things or even selling things like the store versus like what you could do and build a business.

[00:09:30] Patrick: And I'm sure what you learn in Amway made you be successful. Your next job, you know, managing a team, sales, marketing,

[00:09:36] David Nathan: Sure the, the power of reading and learning, you know, is like I never took anything seriously before I saw. People who clearly took things so seriously and the amount of success that they created for themselves and the lifestyle and how much respect they had from the people who understood what they were doing and how much they cared about helping people.

[00:09:56] David Nathan: You know, it was, I'd never seen anything like that before.

[00:09:59] Patrick: Mm-hmm. And people doing something that other people look down on, know, or just frown

[00:10:06] David Nathan: I just don't understand.

[00:10:07] Patrick: Don't understand it.

[00:10:08] David Nathan: Yeah.

[00:10:08] Patrick: push it away and they're doing well. It was really eye-opening for sure. every experience that we have there's a little something that sticks with us to push us forward.

[00:10:18] David Nathan: Yep. Absolutely.

[00:10:19] Patrick: I'm fascinated talking to entrepreneurs. So what, was that point where, okay, I gotta do my own thing? What happened there?

[00:10:27] David Nathan: Let's just say when I started that job. I was really excited about it and I had this vision of one day maybe I could be, you know, a part owner of the company. I was working crazy hours, just really wanting to do a good job. A year in, I ended up getting married and then technically nine, 11 months after that we ended up having triplets.

[00:10:51] David Nathan: So I found myself 32 years old. Three kids a, a salary that wasn't paying me very much. I was now two years into this job realizing that I didn't love the products. I wasn't proud of them. I didn't think that the quality was good enough to really like sell them hard. I learned a lot both ways that I would wanna run a company and ways that I wouldn't wanna run a company.

[00:11:19] David Nathan: And, I found myself applying to jobs, not understanding how I was supposed to bridge the gap between what I was making and what I knew I ultimately needed to make not really knowing what I was because I was kind of doing everything sales and marketing for that company. And that's very broad and it felt like every job that sounded cool, I would never hear back from, and

[00:11:42] David Nathan: all the really boring or a hundred percent commission based jobs were the ones that I was hearing back from, and I didn't want to take those jobs. So I eventually said, well, I think the best bet for me is to start my own business. As crazy as that sounds, I've got a, you know, or a family of five, and if I'm gonna do this, I should probably do it back in Boston.

[00:12:03] David Nathan: Because that's where my home network was. Like anybody who was more established in life that could potentially be a client that I at least already knew was there. My parents were here and we wanted to get our kids around their grandparents. And I said, well, I'm either gonna prove myself wrong or I'm gonna prove myself right.

[00:12:20] David Nathan: And this was kind of always a driver in my head of, well, what's the worst case scenario? I guess we could always move back in with my parents. Not ideal, but we could. Maybe I'll rack up 200 K in debt. I'll declare bankruptcy and I'll still be better off than most people coming outta college because you can't wipe out student debt.

[00:12:42] David Nathan: And at least I'll have two to four years of legitimate real life experience to build off of, right? So I thought even the worst case scenario is not the end of the world, and at that point I can always go back and get another job. So that's kind of what I did.

[00:12:57] Patrick: That is amazing. That type of mindset, I know right away you're gonna be successful. No matter what you choose to do. If you have that type of mindset, it is awesome. That's not as common as you think, right? So I think if you have that type of mindset, you're definitely obviously taking advantage of it doing well, so that's great. But I think just Like myself, I think we're very lucky to have a spouse that supports our crazy ideas, you know, because if it wasn't for that, the road would be much more difficult. Every day I am grateful for her support.

[00:13:31] Patrick: And I'm sure you feel the

[00:13:32] David Nathan: Oh yeah.

[00:13:32] Patrick: 'cause that's a big part.

[00:13:34] David Nathan: She could have just as easily said no, we're not gonna pick up our family and move across the country to a new place that where she'd never lived to start some random business that could fail. And then even along the way, it was hard getting it started, you know, like we had to put food on the table and there were months.

[00:13:53] David Nathan: It still feels like we never know how we're gonna pay the bills the next month. But, you know, certainly early on it was just like, where's money supposed to come from? And sometimes I would just be beating myself up. 'cause it's like, it's not working. I'm not good enough and blah, blah, blah.

[00:14:06] David Nathan: Why did I even do this? And every once in a while, she would just kick me out the door, like my first client I ever got. I remember sitting in my living room and I was just like, this is so stupid. This is not gonna work. I don't know why I did this. He's like, you know what, just go to the gym.

[00:14:20] David Nathan: And like there was like I'd been going to a rock climbing gym at the time. She's like, just go out, go rock climb or something. Like, just get outta the house. Stop being depressed. And ended up going, and while I was there, I saw the owner of the rock climbing gym. And they became my first like legitimate client as well.

[00:14:36] David Nathan: So I was like, you know what, I'm here. I'm gonna go talk to him. So I did. And then that became my first retainer client at the time.

[00:14:42] Patrick: is awesome.

[00:14:43] David Nathan: So, you know, 'cause, just 'cause she kicked me, she kicked me out, but I needed it.

[00:14:48] Patrick: 'cause yeah, you have doubts, right? I'm going through the same thing, and, the financial stress when you do start a business is real. It's definitely real

[00:14:57] Patrick: Outside of your wife kicking you. out of the house. What do you think drives you in times of challenge to push through?

[00:15:06] David Nathan: I mean, I could answer that a number of ways. 'cause on, on one hand there were definitely times where I thought, I think I just need to apply for jobs and like, I just don't know if this is gonna work. I don't know if this is fair to my family, you know, like this. It is just, it's hard right now. And every time that that would happen, I'd start looking at jobs.

[00:15:27] David Nathan: And again, they would either sound really boring. Or I wouldn't hear back from the really good night cool sounding ones. I knew who I was up against, you know, and I would think, well, it might even take me six months to a year just to find a decent job, so I have to keep going in the meantime. And so I would keep going and then a couple months later I'd be back in a better position.

[00:15:53] David Nathan: Like, that happened numerous times throughout the process, especially early on where I was like, okay, I think this isn't working. I gotta apply for a job, but I still have to pay the bills, so I still have to try to sell stuff. And then lo and behold, so at this point, now I know that it's gonna go up and down.

[00:16:09] David Nathan: I've been through that plenty of times. So there are, definitely key indicators that I can look at. Do we have a pipeline? Does everybody hate us now or do we still have people who refer people to us? Do we still have a network? Are there people that I can go to and talk to if I need to?

[00:16:24] David Nathan: There was a period last year, I went through six months without closing a deal. Which was incredibly difficult. But I saw that we had a pipeline and I saw we were leveling up the types of companies we were talking to, and I knew that if we kept going in that direction, that something was gonna come from it, right?

[00:16:42] David Nathan: So I think that's one of the things that keeps me going, oh, that's not a very inspiring answer, because it's like, to some extent you just kind of have to keep going. Like, what option do you have? But at the same time, I love what I'm doing and I see the value, and I see the opportunity and the potential in it, I have yet to see a job come my way that offers more in terms of flexibility, in terms of potential, in terms of ability to work with a variety of people and on a variety of projects that matches, let alone exceeds what I'm doing now. You know, there's a reason why I started it, so I just, the potential to unmatch the flexibilities unmatched.

[00:17:20] David Nathan: Yeah. I mean, sometimes you can become a slave to your own business, but it's not the same, you know.

[00:17:25] Patrick: I appreciate that very real answer. Like I said, it may not be expiring, but that's a very real answer and I'm, I'm going through exactly what you just described right now, you know, a year and a half into my entrepreneur journey. So, yeah, that hits home big time.

[00:17:42] David Nathan: Sure. And I'd be happy to reverse this conversation at some point and learn more about your journey as well and what you're going through. I think. The amazing part about being an entrepreneur and, and starting a business is it's in your hands, right? So if it's not going well, there's nobody to blame.

[00:18:01] David Nathan: A, you have to have that mindset. I mean, you can blame everybody all the time if you really want to, right? Or you can blame the government, or you can blame the economy, or you can blame. Your team. You can blame whoever you want, but ultimately if things aren't going well, there's something that I can do to fix it.

[00:18:17] David Nathan: Right. As opposed to if I'm working for a company. You can still have an entrepreneur mindset within a company, but ultimately you're not the one necessarily driving the ship. Right. But when you're at the helm, when you're in charge, when it's up to you. You better figure it out.

[00:18:35] David Nathan: And that's at the same time scary, but also inspiring because it's really up to you and there are ways to fix it and there are ways to think through what you're doing and adjust course and find the right solutions and talk to the right people. And every once in a while you're like, you know what, maybe I should go to that event and something comes of it, you know, maybe I should pick up the phone and call that company.

[00:18:54] David Nathan: And, and maybe something comes from it. And every I, it's like I look back at all the different things that if I hadn't just kind of made the decision to do that or spend that hour writing that, or go to that event when I didn't want to, it's like I probably wouldn't be here. But all those little moments add up over time

[00:19:09] Patrick: that up?

[00:19:10] David Nathan: and somehow it seems to work out.

[00:19:13] Patrick: Yeah, you just keep on pushing forward now. So how many are you on the team right now?

[00:19:17] David Nathan: So we're a team of 10. And yeah, it's really been the last few years that we've been working on building a team. And its own journey building. Building a team is definitely challenging. It has its challenges. Working with people can be hard.

[00:19:32] Patrick: Pun intended here, how did you scale up? how did you know when to scale up and how fast to scale up? What the kind of deciding factors for you?

[00:19:42] David Nathan: our mentality has always been, we're not gonna turn business away. Actually this was a lesson that I learned back in Amway days, everybody's like, well, but what if I get really successful and then I don't know how to handle? It's like you're thinking way too far ahead,

[00:19:58] David Nathan: right now, just focus on what you have to do and then make a mess and then figure out how to clean the mess up. The best way to grow a business is make a mess and then figure out how to clean it up as opposed to being cautious and taking your time and like, no, no, no, no. If you can generate the business, take the business, and then work your butt off figuring out how to fulfill it effectively, you can go slow and still drop the ball on something, or you can go fast, find the right people, build the momentum, because it's ultimately about building momentum.

[00:20:28] David Nathan: If you can't build the momentum, you can't build a business, right? So it was make a mess and figure out how to clean it up. And. I mean, I'd be lying if I told you that I had full control over our pipeline. If I had a switch, I was like, okay, now we're ready to take on more clients and so I'll just turn the switch back on and the clients will come in and we'll scale as much as we want and then we'll pause it and then we'll wait.

[00:20:47] David Nathan: Like it doesn't really work like that. So when work comes our way, you know, we wanna take it on and then we want to build the infrastructure to support it. our projects take time. A website takes five to six months, sometimes more depending on the project. So we have time to figure things out as we go, and, we've learned how to deliver projects effectively and find the right people that we need to fulfill different parts of it.

[00:21:12] David Nathan: And so now it's more, okay, well, instead of, me and my business partner doing everything ourselves. It's how do we get different people into different roles within the project? So A, it runs smoother and b, we have more bandwidth. Right? There's no way we're gonna be able to do everything ourselves forever. That's not sustainable. It's not where we want to go. And what's the exit strategy there anyways? If, everything's dependent on us. So as quickly as possible, I wanted to start getting other people to do things because if it's a hundred percent dependent on me, like I remember early on I was designing sites myself, and I'm not necessarily a talented designer, but I knew enough to deliver some basic websites for clients.

[00:21:51] David Nathan: I had two projects at one point, and I couldn't even imagine selling, right? Like I was so absorbed in trying to deliver those that it, it just, I couldn't possibly pick up the phone and call anybody. So I knew immediately that if I can get other people to do that work, they'll probably do it better than I will and I can focus on sales, right?

[00:22:10] David Nathan: And operations and team building and, and all of that type of stuff. And marketing. Right? So

[00:22:15] Patrick: Yeah.

[00:22:16] David Nathan: That was early on something that I knew. That's basically how we're scaling is working with bigger companies, landing bigger projects, working with more talented people, and as often as we can, hiring other people to do as much of the work as possible and to really make them part of the team.

[00:22:33] Patrick: As business came in, you scaled up that way. That's smart way to do it, for sure. Sometimes there's always like the chicken and the egg thing where it's like, if you don't have enough people, then you can't go for those bigger contracts, so there's always that struggle sometimes I find.

[00:22:46] David Nathan: But once you've landed a big project, now you can afford to bring in

[00:22:49] Patrick: busy.

[00:22:50] David Nathan: those people you can learn to, if you can afford to bring in the more talented people. For me, it was also, okay. Well, at one point we were selling $5,000 websites, right? And I'm thinking.

[00:23:01] David Nathan: Let's say we wanna do a million dollars a year. That's a lot of $5,000 websites, right? And so I could either sell $25,000 websites, or I could sell $100,000 website.

[00:23:16] Patrick: Yeah.

[00:23:16] David Nathan: Right. And if I sell $100,000 website, I could work with really talented people to fulfill that project that wouldn't wanna work with me. If I was only doing $5,000 websites, I couldn't afford to work with them.

[00:23:28] David Nathan: That was another way we scaled was like, we gotta just start selling bigger projects. Like that was always a goal. It just made sense economically and in terms of bandwidth and who we could work with it. It made a lot of sense to do that.

[00:23:41] Patrick: Think just like with any choices is like, you know, quantity, low value or high value, but less, quantity. And you gotta pick one, and

[00:23:48] David Nathan: No. I'll do 20, a hundred thousand websites too. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but that's a separate issue. We'll get there, you know.

[00:23:55] Patrick: Hey, let me ask you this. I, I don't know the answer and I, I've always been curious about this. So, SAO is a big. Thing with websites and I probably get contacted like once a week about someone trying to sell me the do the SEO for,

[00:24:07] David Nathan: Yeah.

[00:24:07] Patrick: mine. But with the onslaught of ai, how relevant is SEO gonna be, you know, five years, 10 years down the line?

[00:24:15] Patrick: Because now I, I'm noticing if you do a Google search and even Google search is gonna die at some point, if not, it's dying

[00:24:20] David Nathan: It'll change. Yeah.

[00:24:21] Patrick: Even Google's recommending you through their ai, like what to check out, you

[00:24:25] David Nathan: Yep.

[00:24:26] Patrick: So what are your thoughts on that?

[00:24:28] David Nathan: So it's funny, this is a very hot topic right now and there's two questions in what you're asking. One is, is SEO still relevant? And two, how does AI impact. SEO and websites. Right. So is SEO still relevant? Yes. It's not necessarily what it used to be. Right? Before everybody started doing SEO, you know, it was kind of like when Google Ads first came out, you could buy up all the most expensive keywords for pennies on the dollar, get in front of everybody.

[00:24:59] David Nathan: Now it's a lot more expensive. Certain industries are way more competitive than others. And it's the same for SEO, right? So we've built sites where first shot got them high up on SEO because there was very little competition and we've literally never touched the website for five years, and it still performs beautifully.

[00:25:16] David Nathan: And then we have other sites where it's much more competitive, the keywords are much harder to rank for. And it takes a whole lot longer because you've got other people who've been doing it now for maybe 20 years and have invested millions of dollars to show up, especially in the sciences where you're competing with all of the major companies, you know, like the Thermos and all of these companies that have literally spent millions, if not more, on SEO and just building out their site and all of the content that they produce and all the major publications.

[00:25:46] David Nathan: Who have dozens, if not hundreds of articles targeting the same keywords as the companies who are selling these services. So it's gonna be much more challenging. That being said, it's still valuable and there's still ways to find pockets where you can target and get, you can get creative that way, and it's certainly, it's not hurting unless you're spending way too much money on it for way too little return and that you just have to kind of adjust as you go.

[00:26:09] David Nathan: But in terms of ai. What we've found, and I've spoken to numerous other agencies about this as well, is that there's not much you can do to influence the AI search engines or models yet, outside of what already is considered best SEO practices. 'cause if Google's returning something, where are they getting that information from?

[00:26:33] David Nathan: They're still looking at websites. It's still search engine optimization that's telling Google that you're the right, result to show in that search. chat, CPT is just pulling from Google or pulling from the internet, and so there's still best practices that you have to follow.

[00:26:49] David Nathan: Now it's just harder because there's really one result instead of 10 results.

[00:26:53] Patrick: Exactly.

[00:26:54] David Nathan: have to be more strategic and more creative and more invested in the process. But again, it's, you know, not everything is the best strategy for every company. And it really just depends on, you know, what they're selling, what the competition looks like, who their target audience is.

[00:27:10] David Nathan: Do people even know they exist or not? And like, are people even searching for it, right? Like, these are all questions that go into whether you should invest in it.

[00:27:17] Patrick: Just so I'm clear. If someone types in, I want top five companies that manufacture antibodies.

[00:27:23] David Nathan: Yep.

[00:27:24] Patrick: chat. GPT is gonna come up with, thermal probably,

[00:27:28] David Nathan: Yeah.

[00:27:28] Patrick: And four others.

[00:27:29] Patrick: But like, are you saying when chat GPT pulls those up, those four companies were the best at SEO on Google at this point? How does that work? Where are they pulling this from?

[00:27:39] David Nathan: It's important to also look at what does it mean to be good at SEO, right? If you're only trying to impress Google, I think you're missing the boat a little bit. It's broader than that. Like you are trying to impress Google, but it's not just the content that's on your site and the keywords that you're using, it's also who else out there is pointing to your website and what are they saying about you.

[00:28:04] David Nathan: Right? So if chat GPT is scouring the internet for all information having to do with antibody manufacturers, well, how many publications are talking about thermo manufacturing antibodies? Right. How many other resources are out there saying, Thermo's the place to go for, for antibodies if you want them.

[00:28:23] David Nathan: You have to kind of think broader than that anyways. 'cause that is also how you help influence Google it's called backlinks, how many other sites are linking back to your site and what are they saying about you? And so with AI it's just becoming more powerful because AI can now interpret.

[00:28:40] David Nathan: What all of these companies are saying, what all of these resources are saying. So I think it's, it's a little bit of everything still 

[00:28:47] Patrick: We live in interesting times, my friend.

[00:28:49] Patrick: I was watching this interesting video if you know Simon Sinek.

[00:28:52] David Nathan: Yeah, sure.

[00:28:53] Patrick: He was talking about, AI will spur on like creativity. Allow us to do things that we've never imagined, right? But what AI takes away is the struggle. The struggle to do it because right now we can just snap our fingers and it's done. The paint, the beautiful painting can be done without us taking the time to make mistakes and go through it. And as entrepreneurs, like we just talked about, it's like that's how we learn is the struggle. Getting through challenges, pushing through, looking deep within ourselves, that's sort of the sense of purpose and, I just found him like really interesting thought, like, AI's gonna take all that away.

[00:29:33] Patrick: One of the examples he says is that you could create an AI like robot that's like, has all the psychology knowledge in a world, and then when you come home, you're feeling down. It'll tell you all the right things,

[00:29:44] David Nathan: Yeah.

[00:29:45] Patrick: it'll never know how to be your friend.

[00:29:47] David Nathan: Yeah.

[00:29:47] David Nathan: It's empty in that sense.

[00:29:49] Patrick: You gotta know, how to be a friend to someone. 

[00:29:51] David Nathan: It's kind of like when cameras were invented, you no longer needed to be an amazing painter to create a lifelike image. You had cameras, but you still have exceptional photographers. And then there's kind of everybody else, and you have people that create.

[00:30:04] David Nathan: Immersive experiences through photography and museums are designed around that, right? Because they've taken that technology and they've taken it further. And so now we just have to think, okay, if anybody can write a blog post, that just levels the playing field, you still have to figure out how are you gonna excel, how can you write blog posts that are still compelling and interesting and generate emotion.

[00:30:25] David Nathan: And inspire people, if chat GPT gets to the point where it can do that, then you just have to figure out how to take it to the next level. And again, it's just accelerating progress, but it's empty unless you still go through that struggle.

[00:30:39] David Nathan: I think it's the struggle that makes it meaningful. Now it's easier to get to base, I guess.

[00:30:43] Patrick: agreed. Before I let you go let's talk about Sams and,

[00:30:46] David Nathan: sure.

[00:30:47] Patrick: want to explain to people what that is and what your role is in that organization.

[00:30:52] David Nathan: Yeah, absolutely. So Sams is an organization for sales and marketing professionals in science. And it's really a giant community of people who are passionate about what they do. Who are passionate about driving innovation forward, who wanna learn and grow and network and speak with other people who are like-minded.

[00:31:17] David Nathan: And it's really the only organization out there that focuses solely on commercial professionals in the sciences. There, there's 5,000 members globally. And what's amazing is I talk to people about Sams all the time and nobody's ever heard of it, right? So, but everybody says that's a really amazing idea.

[00:31:36] David Nathan: And then they sign up and then they get involved. And we're really making a strong push right now to spread the word and get more people involved and grow this community where people can come and be inspired and grow Sam's. Is that strategic advantage, right? Or that competitive advantage.

[00:31:51] David Nathan: If you want to excel in the sciences, if you want to get around people who have been in the industry for a long time, and if you wanna learn from people who are practitioners and can teach knowledge that is hard to find anywhere else, and it's geared towards science, Sams is the place to do that.

[00:32:05] David Nathan: So I've been on the board for about two years. I was aware of Sams for a number of years and then like when I told you 2023, we really made that commitment to start putting ourselves out there more, you know, in-person events were picking back up. Our portfolio had grown to the point where we were confident to say we are a science driven agency.

[00:32:23] David Nathan: And I actually originally joined as a sponsor of Sam's and then was pulled into the board a few months after that. And it's been an amazing experience. The board members themselves are really inspiring for me. I was actually presenting one of the awards at the Sams Award ceremony in Chicago around a A CR when was it?

[00:32:41] David Nathan: Back in April. And what I said there was, it's like showing up to a call every two weeks with my own personal mentors who have been in the industry for a long time. And I get to learn from them and associate with them. And now it's getting to be a part of this organization and really helping it grow and trying to envision what this community could look like, you know, five to 10 years down the line when we've really been working hard to grow it that whole time.

[00:33:07] Patrick: Yeah, that's amazing. I just recently learned about Sams and,

[00:33:10] David Nathan: I.

[00:33:10] Patrick: think it's a great, great idea. So I'll definitely try to attend the next one. I think you had a gathering. In at some point not too long ago, is, is there one coming up in North America

[00:33:21] David Nathan: Yeah, so our annual North American conference is coming up. We're still locking down dates and locations, but I believe it's gonna be in Boston early December.

[00:33:30] Patrick: Awesome. Well, you can count on me being there. Looking forward to seeing you and meeting you in person.

[00:33:34] David Nathan: Yeah, that'd be great, Ben. You should definitely come. It's a great day. I mean, it's like you leave that day, you're like, wow, I'm really glad I came to this. You know, it's like you feel the energy and you meet a lot of people. The content, I mean, you know, it's one thing to watch a recording, it's another thing to be there in person and feel the energy and get to speak to the speakers.

[00:33:51] David Nathan: And it's like, it's not like this giant stage where you can't access people. It's just the speakers, once they're done speaking, go and sit in the tables with everybody else, you know?

[00:33:59] Patrick: So cool.

[00:33:59] David Nathan: a really cool environment.

[00:34:01] Patrick: So Dave, is there anything else you wanna promote or you wanna talk about?

[00:34:05] David Nathan: No, look, I think you and I are on similar journeys. You know, I think we entrepreneurs have to stick together. And support each other. Obviously, if there's anything I can do to help you out at any point, definitely let me know. And like I said, I'd love to have another conversation where we turn this around and I pick your brain a little bit and learn from you.

[00:34:23] David Nathan: 'Cause I think you've also got a lot of industry experience that I could learn from. So we should book another call and have that conversation.

[00:34:30] Patrick: for sure. We could go on and talk for hours, but let's save it for the next time.

[00:34:34] Patrick: this was awesome.

[00:34:34] David Nathan: I appreciate it, pat. Thanks for taking the time. This was fun for me.