The Future of Digital Pathology: AI, Remote Diagnosis, and Career Paths with David Remedios

In this episode, we sit down with David Remedios, National Sales Digital Pathology Specialist at Leica Biosystems, to explore the rapidly evolving landscape of digital pathology and the intersection of science and technology in modern healthcare.

From the halls of the innovative Cortellucci Vaughan Hospital to remote diagnosis in Newfoundland, David shares his insights on how automation and digitization are solving critical labor shortages and changing the way doctors work. We also dive into his personal journey from a UofT neurobiology major to a leader in clinical sales.

In this video, we discuss:

• The Digital Shift: How hospitals are moving from glass slides on snowmobiles to instant remote sign-outs [02:10].
• AI vs. Pathologists: Will algorithms replace doctors, or are they simply the ultimate pattern-recognition tool? [04:15].
• Regulatory Hurdles: The differences between Health Canada and FDA approval processes [05:42].
• Career Advice: Why you don’t always need an MBA to reach leadership roles in the life sciences [14:22].
• Sales Strategy: The importance of "discovery" and in-person connections in a complex, 2–4 year sales cycle [26:05].
• Funding Innovation: How hospitals navigate capital projects using foundation funds and "Dragon's Den" style pitches [27:35].

Whether you are a pathology professional, a science student, or interested in the business of medical devices, this conversation provides a deep dive into the future of Canadian healthcare.

Transcript

What hospital are you at right now?

the Cordal Luci Vaughan Hospital. This one looks like really cool. It's got like and robotics this morning. Self-driving, a floor cleaner was going around and Yeah. It's, it's nice. Yeah.

In a couple years it might be a self-driving nurse, but you know, we'll see if we get there.

If there's, so they're the first people in Canada to do what I kind of sell, so they're like pretty innovative. It's a new hospital, but they recruited a lot of people from. Like some of the more notable hospitals in the area to kind of like, say like, this is basically a new hospital and it's built for purpose for going like digital

Yeah.

and like technology forward.

So, it's cool. Yeah. I like it here. 

Do you know on average, how many pathologists are in a hospital?

Yeah.

outta curiosity?

it really depends. This one has 14 this is like a community hospital, but someone like [00:01:00] UHN has 40, but they're the biggest in Canada. So I, I would say it

I.

from five to 40 pathologists, but that might change. With the whole advent of what we're trying to implement at Leica now that they can sign out cases from their house you don't need to be in a specific geographic location we work with Newfoundland who have zero pathologists. Actually in the province they have pathologists based across Canada that remotely sign out

What 

it was, they were the first ones to implement it out of need really? Because they couldn't recruit pathologists to live on the island. So they had to, you know, implement and they were one of the first ones to do so.

wow. I guess that makes sense, especially for, you know, more remote areas, hospitals.

Yeah, the,

'cause everything is just digitized right now because.

I mean, like before that, what they would do is like put the you know, glass microscopic slide in a shipping container and ship it. [00:02:00] I know there's some places in Northern Canada that actually like put it on snowmobiles and drive it to the next hospital. But now they can just scan it and then like. long as you have the credentials to, to remotely you know, log into the network and, and look at the case on your computer. That's the future of pathology, I think. And then what's still five, maybe 10 years away is using algorithms to help the slides, maybe do some quantification of certain biomarkers. in clinical settings, but it's all like, kinda, you know, the first step is, is digitizing the slide and then yeah, it's, it's coming up, you know, with regulatory, it always takes time. I think people are still most comfortable when there's a person behind the diagnosis. But there's, there's like, frameworks coming out now and, people are self-validating some of the algorithms too. Do a diagnosis, but like, you know, [00:03:00] make sure that a pathologist is not missing something. But I've seen like in the research setting some really cool algorithms that are like quote unquote faster and more accurate than, pathologists , at finding certain things. 'cause you know, what I've learned is pathology is just becoming more and more complex. Even like 50 years ago, there was a handful of subspecialties and now there's over like 50 subspecialties. Every cancer has a biomarker that you kind of have to look out for, and computers and algorithms are very good at pattern recognition. So if you train it correctly, pretty good.

Absolutely. I mean, you were saying there's 40 pathologists at. UHNI mean, in the future with I mean with the onslaught of ai, I can totally see AI being much better at a human,

Yeah.

much faster and better. Right? And so in the future, I hate to say this, but they may not need [00:04:00] 40 pathologists. You know, they may need just a handful.

And I think like pathologists are starting to realize like. It is a tool. You know, the saying always is like, you know, AI won't replace you, but someone using AI probably will.

Yeah, I've heard that many times.

Across like every industry really. I mean, I, putting together a PowerPoint presentation, I couldn't find an image liked on. Google search. So I used chat GPT to generate something for me, and it's not perfect,

I.

like, you know, if you need something in a pinch it's a pretty good tool. In my short time in this world, have seen a change in tone from pathologists from. very hesitant to implement digital pathology for that reason, for algorithms. But now seeing that, oh, it's gonna help me to quantitate something so I don't have to spend, know, 60 minutes counting PDL one biomarkers anymore, I can just run an algorithm and it'll [00:05:00] do it very accurately in seconds. Those things I think will come and. Be Health Canada approved first before you can just kind of click the easy button and it, shoots at a diagnosis.

You make a good point actually. You think all these tools have to be Health Canada approved for, you know, all these specialists to use them officially, right?

In Canada? Yeah, I mean it's,

Yeah.

different story. You know, across the border in the US they will self validate more. They'll run a study internally on, 40, 50, 60 cases and then they're comfortable and their medical director will sign off on it. But in Canada. You know, we're run by RFPs for this type of equipment. And, the first question is always, is it he Canada approved? Which I, you know, it, it, it is a seal of approval. It does give that company, a little bit of confidence that some regulatory body has at least given it the seal of approval. I have yet to [00:06:00] see medical device in this field be used in a clinical setting that doesn't have Health Canada approval, and it's just for better or for worse, it's just a requirement. And I don't know if that'll change. Health Canada, from what I see at least, is a little bit easier of an application and approval process than the FDA is.

Yeah, we'll see. I know the current government is keen on wanting to eliminate all their regulatory barriers, you know, especially when it comes to construction and housing, and who knows if that's gonna translate to this stuff, right? To the science and the healthcare field.

We'll see. But yeah, the healthcare field's always a little bit more sensitive and, and of course than, putting cement down.

of course. Yeah.

I'm always fascinated on how people ended up, where they ended up, you know, especially in our industry.

Took a look at your LinkedIn profile and your path seems to be a little bit more straightforward than. Others similar to mine. You studied [00:07:00] science at U of T. One thing I wanted to ask you is was it a minor or another degree in psychology.

Yeah. So I double majored in biology and psychology, and

Okay.

My undergrad they also had different streams of biology. So I did like the neuroscience stream, I was really fascinated with that aspect of not just like the social psychology aspect, but the biology of the brain. so yeah, I was able to do both. And UFT had a really cool program. It was called a research opportunity program that. Honestly, I just applied to on a whim, but what it was was that I was paired with a professor who ended up being the neurobiology chair of Canada, and I, in my undergrad, did a research project with her where, you know, typically your undergrad, you're just going to lecture, you're going to some practicals and lab sessions.

But one of my courses was working one-on-one with a professor doing a project. [00:08:00] And that project ended up being published in a journal. So it was unbelievable to gather that experience just like, you know, the off chance of just applying to something and, it gave me a pretty good grade too.

So I boosted my GPA, which is nice 'cause when you work one-on-one with a professor, they help you out with a pretty good grade. I mean, I put in the work, but it was great.

You got really learning experience with a really like notable professor. Like to this day, people reach out to me and say like, oh my gosh, couldn't believe got to work with Dr.

Allison Fleming. 'cause she's, very well known, one of the most published scientists in Canada. And like at the time, you know, you're undergrad, you don't really know this stuff, but then when you start to work with her and find out all the publications that she's done and really notable scientists.

Wow. So you got a paper with your name on it with Dr. Fleming on it. I mean, that's a pretty cool way to graduate, right?

Yeah, and I think I got [00:09:00] like the notification 'cause papers, you know, take a little while to get reviewed and actually, you know, get the notification that it's gonna be in a journal. I got the notification that it was gonna be published,

I.

Like a day before my first interview at like, you know, your first post university job.

Yeah.

like. Something that I could speak to right away in that interview, which I'm pretty sure helped me get my first job. So it was just, you know, a series of events of luck and putting a little bit of hard work and then just good timing, really.

Timing, timing's everything. It looks like you knew early on you wanted to get into science and spend the rest of your career in sciences. Is that why, I mean, you wouldn't have applied for that program in undergrad, but was that a very clear path to you even before undergrad in high school?

Yeah. I was always fascinated by the sciences specifically biology was something that I really enjoyed in high school. Also, I should say, my whole family, I have two older sisters. They both [00:10:00] have biology degrees from UFT as well. One of them went on to be a high school biology teacher. So you could say biology was something that all of us kind of had an affinity towards.

Was it parents influenced

yeah, you could say that, you know, immigrant parents be a doctor kind of thing. first step

Uhhuh?

Go to and do a biology degree. 

Familiar with that? Yeah.

but yeah, my dad was a banker. My mom worked at a hospital, but just in an office manager role. So, I think general they always wanted us to go to a good school. And yeah, I just kind of, you know, loved it. I thought it was really interesting that you could be part of something that has been around for so long and is still evolving. And you know, in my current day work, I'm now part of this company that has pretty revolutionary technology that. I can speak to medical professionals not so much PhDs, but more so MDs about a technology [00:11:00] that can influence patient care. So yeah, science I think from a. Yeah, I would say from high school was something that I always liked and had some good professors at UFT and got some good mentors at some of the first companies that I worked at. Yeah, I think that's where my career path will continue to be in.

 Did you ever write the MCATs.

No, I didn't. You know, I wanted to work pretty much right outta school. My mom was an office manager for an ophthalmologist in Toronto. And so I actually wanted to get into pharmaceutical sales. And I had a really good, lunches and dinners with pharmaceutical reps to learn about that industry. 

Oh wow.

I didn't end up going to pharmaceuticals because they said it's like really competitive and it's actually a changing industry where there's not too many reps now. And it's much more regulated. So I leaned more so on the research side of things. Initially in my career now I'm in the clinical [00:12:00] sales, but more so in medical devices.

But yeah, I didn't write my mcat. I have flirted with the idea of writing my GMAT for the MBA course. So I think I have, you know, the science background going to school at UFT. But, everything that I've learned about sales and in my role, I am a national sales specialist. I think I could learn more about sales from doing that.

So I've taken courses on writing my GMAT for the MBA interest exam.

. I've gone to enough MBA schools where typically they take you on a tour and they give you like a sample class kind of thing. And it always intrigued me. I thought like, everything is just being able to think of a problem in different ways, and I think that will teach me some skills. So it's in the plan. I was going to. Pursue it more. But earlier this year, I bought a house in Toronto,

Oh, congrats.

a lot of the money that I was gonna put towards the

Yeah.

of [00:13:00] went through the deposit and down

Gotcha,

it's on the

gotcha. Yeah.

but yeah, always something I can explore.

So you're like us. You're gonna paying your mortgage for the rest of your life. Okay.

yeah, yeah.

So I guess you're like me, you followed along with your parents' dream, but only halfway.

Yeah, I, you know,

He didn't go all the way through.

I think at the end of the day, they're just like, you know, get a career that you can you know, pay the bills and what was the most mandatory was, you

I.

go to a good school and graduate with a good GPA, 

yeah,

I think business school is

check. Check.

business school is probably,

Yeah.

Again as you probably know it's MBA is, is important, but not mandatory. I think it'll teach you some skills, but it's not everything. And yeah. Just something that

Yeah, you've got life skills. I mean, when you were interning with that pi, you learned more there than what any book or class could teach you. Right? So, and you're doing that now. You know [00:14:00] what you're going through, your career changes. That's huge. So experience. Counts a lot for sure.

Yeah. And also it depends on the industry. Like I think if you're maybe in a finance industry, you know, and the NBA has much more weight and you probably a lot of people get that earlier on. But, you know, I was surprised initially to realize in our industry and the life sciences you know, there's a lot of people in high level roles that do not have an MBA, you know?

And so it made me realize that, you know, my personal choice was, I think we all go through that decision where, okay, you went, you got your bachelor's, you've been working for a couple years, what's next type thing, you know, the NBA is a lot of the times, the first on a list to try something new.

But yeah, once I found out like all these. CEOs or VPs? What? Like they don't need one. They don't have one. Okay. Well it makes you think it gives you the confidence to say, okay, well I can just ride this wave until,

Totally agree.

until I hit a wall.

you [00:15:00] know, one of the reasons why I wanted to pursue it was to get a promotion and I ended up getting the promotion without it. So, yeah, I,

There you go.

it's, yeah, it's a catch 22. If you have that drive to learn and listen to podcasts or watch YouTube videos, or go to the library and grab a book, you know, that's the most important.

I remember when I was, you know so, I took a course like a six week course. Just writing the gmat strategies and relearning. 'cause a lot of this stuff was. You know, the GMAT has a verbal section and a quant math section verbal section I can get through.

No worries. It's challenging, but, you know, who remembers calculus from high school?

Not me.

that's what I wanted

Not me. I can tell you that.

you know, what I learned is it's just like, you know, putting in work, and I think even without that. Degree, although it, you know, maybe separates a resume from another one. If you actually talk to the person and learn that, you know, they're a learner, they [00:16:00] will go back if they don't understand a concept, and even if it's not within their knowledge at the time, you know, there's enough resources out there to pick it up, right?

Problem solving skills. I think that's the key right there. You're right. And being resourceful. You've been in sales, is that correct if I say that you've been in sales for most of your career?

Yeah. I would say 10 of the last 12 years in sales and in different capacities. I've, with most people, like I kind of sharpened my sword, in inside sales first. Then moved more into sales account executive kind of role and sales territory manager type of role. And I've been lucky enough to. Look after a diverse set of end users. So you know, first in research in Canada and then looking after more so like translational work. And [00:17:00] then now eventually I moved over to the clinical side of things. It's always interesting to see how different products kind of work in different workflows, but at the end of the day, it's really all about trying to understand what your end user's trying to accomplish and try to position yourself.

Like what I've learned early on is you can have the best product in the world, but if you're not solving, the specific solution or even just presenting it in a certain way to somebody, that's what's going to win or lose deals for you. But yeah, sales, I find is, know, the engine of every single company.

You know, you could have pretty much every department running really well, but if your sales team is not performing, I find that interesting and I, I, I find a little bit of, you know, i've been at least told that there's so many different sales techniques and styles and I try to be a little [00:18:00] bit different in learning different techniques every single time constantly learning. You've, lived the life of, you know, the highs and lows of it. But I think the highs greatly outweigh the lows. And really cool. Like right now I sell into the clinical market, you see these tools being used to help diagnose or treat patients, it's pretty rewarding.

It is very rewarding. Yeah. You have a direct effect of someone's life, . And that's part of the reason why I love this industry is you ha you're playing a small part in helping humans, your fellow colleagues and better humanity, which is great. 

Love one point that I'll say on that is like, sometimes when we go to conferences, typically you'll have. Patient advocates that are up on stage with, you know, the doctor that uses certain technology to, find something that hasn't been done before. I think that's like coolest and, and what more conferences should [00:19:00] have, like actually advocates that share their stories.

'cause it's, it's powerful to see someone that was, you know. Maybe not would've been in, the healthcare system, would've been treated in a different way, even 10 or 15 years ago. The technology didn't exist. But to see them stand up there, it's, that's, that's really, really cool. That's what I enjoy.

Yeah, it gives you a sense of purpose and that's what's important. I think, you know, sometimes on, like you mentioned really challenging years. You need to find that what gets you outta bed, right? And that sense of purpose and to remind yourself. Yeah. You know me and my company and my colleagues are making a difference, so that's important.

That's what's helped me through the tough times for sure. Now, in sales I mean, and you mentioned sales, like, you know, I think the ability to connect with that person you mentioned, you know, presenting the solution in a manner that connects with the person in front of you, [00:20:00] that is not as obvious as.

You know, you think, and that takes a lot of years to learn that skill and to understand that skill. And that's personally what I love about sales is that, you know, every approach is different. Every human is different. You can't apply the same, like you said sales technique followed by the book that.

Just doesn't happen. Right? It's every situation is really unique and that takes, like we talked about, that takes time. That takes experience. There's no book or MBA program that could teach you that that's coming from you, just learning. The advantage that you have is that, you've touched a broad customer base.

With different types of solution. So, you have a broad kind of lingo and sensitivity to their needs, which is great. After this phase, you might jump into a completely different industry or, and it's all transferable skills.

yeah. You're, you're so right. I mean, I think [00:21:00] like there's definitely like books and techniques and ways of doing things so many techniques that are out there. One finding like what's the one that works for you? And then two, also like being open to changing it. In my role, I do get to collaborate with other sales professionals, and it's always like, they'll say an idea.

I'm like, I never even thought of that

I.

approach. That makes total sense. And sometimes we do disagree on things, but also it's like, you know, let's figure this out and let's find out what's the best way of approaching this particular opportunity or deal. I find that very cool. You mentioned it earlier on, we both come from like science backgrounds and learn sales kind of in the field. But there's also some salespeople that come to the company that have zero background in science. But they're

Mm-hmm.

You know, they, you know,

Mm-hmm.

questions that they ask are very insightful. And if it leads to a customer telling you information that typically you wouldn't [00:22:00] have. Gotten from some of the more template questions that are typically in your sales training or when you're onboarded at a company, it can totally change a deal. But yeah, I think sales is very difficult but also very rewarding and constantly changing. I'm discovering now is, I fully admit, I leaned on the remote aspect of selling too much. But now I'm getting more into the field. I'll spend, a couple days at an account if I think it's worth it. And the amount of information that you gather is invaluable.

Just. Trying to piece it all together and then doing one final presentation saying, Hey, this is what I've learned. And not saying this is a better way of doing it, but this is a different way. And consider it, maybe this is something that you haven't thought of before or something that you have, and we can look at it a different way.

But it's all about, providing options. And that's what I like.

The big thing that we're missing when we have these virtual calls is the body [00:23:00] language. You know, we're only seeing from the chest up, but a lot of it happens below that.

yeah.

What are they doing with their hands? How are they sitting? You know,

Oh, absolutely.

It's,

after we were doing, even in-person conversations, I'm sorry, in-person presentations. You know, I would be up there presenting or my colleague would be, and if my colleague was presenting, I could see, you know, the. Side conversations between two you know, people happening and I'm like, oh, like that usually happens when there's something interesting that you know was being presented and you can maybe next time or later in that day, like. Oh, like, you know, do you wanna explore that more? stuff you wouldn't be able to really gather on

No.

everybody has their camera off and you don't

Yes.

there or awake. But yeah, in person, you know, is definitely coming back and it's definitely something that I think people appreciate, especially now with, I think there's. So many tools to automate outreach and [00:24:00] like that, but it's, you know, you can, you probably get them the same as much as me. Like you can, you can detect a mile away. Everybody kind of has the same outreach type of email. 

Mm-hmm.

I've, I mean, and even, you know, to pick up the phone and give someone a call when you don't think you're fully understanding their question. Even if you don't think you can help them, just try, you know, that goes a long way. For sure.

We're finding that too with our team. You mentioned difficulties outside of understanding over the years, how to communicate with different type of people. What are the other challenges in sales? Sales do you find?

Hmm. Good question. Find more than anything. Our prospects or or customers are more informed. I think they have the tools to go online and do their own research. And whether that research is accurate is questionable sometimes. But I find like it is

It depends what you're selling. Yeah. I mean, if you're selling a basic hot plate [00:25:00] or you know, whatever, they pretty much know everything about it. But if you're selling a high-end microscope, yeah,

it

it's different.

And it's like, where are their sources and stuff like that. And for what I do, you're right. What I sell now is a pretty complex sale.

I.

some people come in with a lot of knowledge. Some people come in with very little, but you know, before I used to, when I got a lead or I think someone's interested, I used to, you know, hand them the brochure and say, Hey, this is kinda what it's like.

Let's set up a call. But now I don't even send a brochure at first. I say like, let's talk first and see like actually. Maybe you're interested in what you think is the solution, but actually something else is gonna work way better for you and there's no point in confusing you with, you know, you reading on your own.

Why don't we just talk for, even within a minute, I can tell if my solution is. Maybe gonna work or maybe not, or maybe there's something better. Yeah, I had some pretty good sales managers that kinda, you know, [00:26:00] did teach me pick up a call and, and that discovery is, is the best person or, or on a call because discovery on an email, even though you think you're conveying a lot of information, you know, I've been in the same shoes before when I get an email and it has. brochures and a lot of typing. Like I, you know, glance at it,

No, you're not reading it. No.

I don't know, there's something to, like, someone explaining something to you and that works a lot better. You know, especially for

Yeah. So what.

you can, there's so much you can talk about. So trying to, getting on a call and identifying like the three things that are the most important. is, you know, all of you really need to do, but like kind of sending all the information to them. You're not really being resourced to 'em. You're kind of just, you know, wishing a brochure or

Well, you hit on a nail. 'cause you might be sending him the wrong information before that conversation. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

like, you know, they. They'll go to a website and they'll, you know, send in, you know, [00:27:00] what they think is the right solution.

And sometimes websites don't have all the information, or sometimes websites are misleading. Know, I think they're a lot of times geared towards really enough information so that you are reaching out , to your salesperson. You know, you wanna be that resource for somebody. It's very. Interesting to see, like, again, what we were discussing earlier, everybody is different. But you're expected to sell everybody on this one brochure. Doesn't make sense, right?

How's the funding situation like these last couple of years with

Yeah,

Canadian hospitals right now?

It's

Has it gone better, worse, same.

all over the board. I find hospitals are, it really depends and, and it, it depends on, and it's part of my job to help them realize that there's different ways to fund this. Whether you are using, capital funds or operational funds, whether you are, applying for a grant or you're able to find foundation funds through, a charity like Terry Fox Foundation [00:28:00] or sometimes like. foundation, you get those lottery tickets that you buy and you can kind of win a, I don't know, a mansion or something like that. But that funding actually does go towards, funding, capital projects. Right.

Mm-hmm.

it,

Yep.

And what I also try to do is, you know a lot of times it comes down to making a dragons den pitch to leadership forward to a funding committee to say, Hey, I think this is a really good idea. I think we should implement this, but we do need some funds. You know, it's my job to help them to create that pitch to say like, you know, this is something that is new and maybe.

It doesn't have the best return on investment initially, but you'll get notoriety and, and maybe be the first in Canada to do something and perhaps in the future, you know, we'll find out some ways to kind of generate some revenue from it. But yeah, the funding situation I find is tough, but there's always different ways of approaching it.

Yeah, you [00:29:00] mentioned that your sales cycle is typically two to four years, and I think a big reason why is because they gotta go and get the funds before so they can buy your, your. Right. It's such a different beast here compared to the us You know, I think your colleagues in the US are probably experiencing a very different sales cycle in certain areas.

Yeah, definitely.

I,

and,

yeah.

like I mentioned,

I.

funding is, is way different, right? I mean you'll get comparing us to the US you, you'll get hospitals that do have people that have set up funds or, or you know, just. Really called spade, a spade, a billionaire that is, you know wants their

Like donated.

know, and

Gotcha. 

it happens much more in the US than it does here. I think there are means of doing that to some regard, but as much as, you know. Mark Zuckerberg having the Can Zuckerberg [00:30:00] grant that funds, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars per year. It's different. And then also in the us the not universal healthcare. So it's not, you know, taxpayer funded.

It's, you know, you recharge the patients, so they have a different return on investment over there. But yeah, I think like, new technologies are harder to get off the ground here, but once they are accepted, you know and once there is a way of implementing it and having a not return on investment, but a way of sustaining that technology I think, there's the potential to have it implemented at the provincial level and you know, it becoming perhaps a standard of care and then it becomes kind of the norm.

One thing I read with the Carney budget is that he is dedicating. Lots of money to attract. I think not only scientists but just, you knowpeople leading in their fields to come and work in Canada. And so hopefully that bleeds into our [00:31:00] industry and you know, encourages more funding, more research, more groundbreaking research being done up here.

So it's pretty exciting.

Yeah, I think there's always potential and I think if we can attract individuals to come up north, it would only be great things. So hopefully we see those.

Yeah, hopefully more people are okay with paying half their paycheck, going to taxes.

Yeah. It's the same thing with sports as well. I meanit's tough to attract talent for that reason, but you know, the standard of life is very good here in Canada and I think. If anything, throughout the last year or so, people are noticing that Canada is a great, option, maybe alternative to going to the states.

And we'll see. I mean, I think we have the infrastructure. We just need

We need the cash.

and like more people taking you know, the chance. But yeah, you know, I think it'll it'll be good things for us.

My goal is for [00:32:00] a freshly science graduate to realize, you know, there's more than being a doctor out there in our industry, and that you could you know, have a rewarding career outside of being a doctor. And obviously you're proving it. And good luck to you. You know, whenever you get a decide to do that.

MBA, all the best. Cool. 

well hey, thanks so much for your time, David. I really appreciate it and we'll catch up again soon.

opportunity, pat. Take care.