Legacy, Aging and Preparing for Eternity: Episode 4

Welcome to the Discovering Our Very Best Podcast, hosted by Chris Conley and Debbie Ellis. The goal of this podcast is to share thoughts, stories and ideas enabling you to become all that God created you to be. Always remember, when there is hope in the future, there is power in the present.

Today on the podcast, Chris and Deb examine the concept of 'Mattering'. How have you shown others they matter? Have you experienced moments when you realize you matter to others? 

Brought to you by Darin Olson with Edward Jones Investments.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:45

Welcome to Discovering Our Very Best Podcast with Chris Conley and Deb Ellis. The goal of this podcast is to share thoughts, stories, and ideas enabling you to become all that God created you to be. Always remember: when there is hope in the future, there is power in the present.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

This series of podcasts center around legacy, aging, and preparing for eternity. The last time we talked about purpose, mission, and vision, and we said at that time we were going to get into mattering. And I hadn't heard that term before, but Debbie uh had a book that she talked about and thought it went well. So I know you've done some research, so clue us in on what you've got.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

You bet. The book that you are talking about, and which I had gone through to get ready for this podcast, is called Mattering: The Secret of a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose. And it was written by a Jennifer Wallace. And I think it ties in well with what we've said, Chris, on legacy, because we talked about modern culture and how we often substitute achievement for mattering. And I'll go a little bit into what mattering is. Mattering basically is that you're here, you're not invisible, that you're important, and that people notice you and that you notice other people. So it can be on a larger scale, or it can just be recognizing the clerk at the checkout and saying, How is your day going? They always say, How are you? Right. Do you ever reciprocate and say sincerely, looking them in the eye and saying, How is your day doing? Right. You know, how are you when do you get off work? You know, just little things like that to show that it matters. Or opening the door for someone shows that it matters.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Uh I've been in a men's group and we've said uh when the waitress would bring us something, uh, can we pray for you anything? And it's it's amazing how many times they have something on their heart, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Absolutely. And they do matter. So when we talk about substituting achievement for mattering, in our modern culture, we often substitute achievement for what really matters. And achievement culture would speak to us saying, be impressive, be successful, be exceptional. But when I looked at the book, what mattering says is be connected, be needed, be valued. And that's those are the components of legacy we have talked about in the past sessions. So the core of the book is arguing that the deepest human need is to know that we matter. And she went into feeling value, which we said someone sees you, respects you, and appreciates you. And then knowing the next step is knowing that you add value to this world and that you contribute to society and you are something meaningful to others. And I I think you've heard in the morning, if your tank is empty, you can't give to others, you can't serve others. So I guess it doesn't mean your whole life has to be given to mattering and caring about others. In the morning, I think it's important that you look at yourself and say, what do I need today for myself in order that I can give to others? And we can't forget that component of serving as well. You have to serve yourself first. So she also brought up two things about extrinsic values and intrinsic values. And so extrinsic values would be like we talked the first session, the big house, the flashy car, the high status career, or a certain image or popularity that you want to have. And that intrinsic values would be the part where you grow spiritually, where you respect the environment, where you're kind to others. You're just more social and into helping the world. So there's a difference. But she mentioned intrinsic value brings more tranquility and peace, whereas the other is driven by achievement and pushing you. Right. You know, every moment counts, doing this and this. And then, of course, that busyness of the modern world pushes away the tranquility that we would need.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

And it seems like it breeds in our mind that it's never enough. Because once we have one achievement, we want another and another and another. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

You're right. Because what one values is a lot different than the other. So the desire for success, I don't mean to put that down. It's it's a wonderful thing, and we all need to have that. But we also need to know it can create blind spots in our life. And so we have to ask God to show us success is greater than you can imagine for yourself, but giving you the virtue of humility and protecting you from becoming a prisoner of your own ambition. So that's a fine balance. But I think we can look to God to show us that peace and what we need and that humility in life. What did I just hear the other day on the radios? God doesn't need you, God wants you.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

There's a difference.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

That's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

So if we talk about our well-being and the value of intrinsic, there's this good story that was shared on Oprah. So this is a true story, and it was also in Jennifer Wallace's book. And it's about a sanitation worker and how a sanitation worker ended up graduating from Harvard Law School. And I think it's it's a great story. It's rather long, but it's a true story, and I want to tell you about that if that's okay. Rihan was a young person in Maryland, and he grew up in a family that struggled. At eight years old, his mother left the family, and so the father raised the two boys, and he worked multiple jobs to do that. In school, he was not strong academically, and it wasn't because he couldn't, it's just he came to school hungry, he came to school exhausted. There were factors beyond what a teacher would see that made him not be the academic student you'd probably want. But as the story goes on, when he graduated from high school, he went to work for the sanitation department, and this was a job he was proud of. His father worked there, his brother worked there, he was proud to be a sanitation worker, and he worked really, really hard. One day, though, a very defining moment in his life came when he was working in Washington, D.C. And let me go back a minute. I'm gonna sidestep. He mentioned when he was being interviewed that sanitation workers have really hard jobs because theirs was to clean out um dumpsters. He said the things you would find in a dumpster, he said once they found a grenade, they would find all these things that people shouldn't put in there. Yeah, all kinds of things like that. Needles, glasses, things that were date. He said it was a dangerous job and you could get hurt doing that. And in that respect, he said, people don't even care about what they throw in trash that they shouldn't even be throwing. So his job wasn't even respected as a profession by other people. So going back to where I was, I kind of got off the cliff there, he was working, and there was a very defining moment because a woman, he said she was very well dressed, it was in Washington, D.C., and she had a a son that he was guessing about eight years old, and she leaned down and whispered and pointed to him and the workers. I don't want you to grow up to be like that. And he said she wasn't a very good whisperer because they heard it too. But that was her point, and it just really hit him because he was so proud, and he still is proud of being a sanitation worker and the people that he worked for. But as the story goes on, he worked very, very hard, and the his colleagues, the people he worked with, noticed it. And they went to the boss and said, Rihan is such a good, capable worker. We need to help him to do more with his life. And so the boss kindly helped him get into Boeing University. It must have been like a community university that near there. So the boss helped him get a full scholarship, helped him to get tutors, and also arranged his hours so he would work from like 4 to 7 a.m., then he'd go to classes. So he was going full-time to school, full-time working, and he was handling both of them, but as you can guess, working quite hard. So the story goes on. He graduated with a four-point GPA from Boeing State University, and then he transferred to the University of Maryland to finish his degree. His father suffered a stroke. So, again, he was going full-time to college, full-time as a sanitation worker. And he graduated from college with a 4-0 again. He was even selected to be the speaker for graduation. He was accepted into Harvard Law School and he went. So that's a story in itself, how it led with colleagues that believed in him and showed that he mattered, a boss who helped him, and then finally he graduated from Harvard Law School. But there's more to the story because one day at Harvard, he was walking down the hall, and there was a lady who was a custodian, and he passed her, and he I don't think anybody else was around. And he just says, Hi, how are you doing today? And she kind of looked at him and she said, Are you talking to me? And he said, Yes, how are you doing? And she kind of paused and she said, Not a student at Harvard has ever asked me that question. She said, They would rather look at the wall than make eye contact with me. And so they got to know each other and they would talk. And it gave him the idea that why aren't we recognizing the people that help us, that serve us? And so he created an organization. And in that year, that was his second year of law school. In a year, he raised $70,000. And the his last year at law school, he and his group put together a great big banquet for the sanitation workers and their families. And there were 200 people that came and they gave awards for certain things. And he said, he will never forget after the event, one of the ladies came up to him and she said, I was fortunate, I got an award. But what was more important is when I looked out at my son, it's the first time I've seen him so proud of me. And he said, that made it all worthwhile. So I think there's angles to this story that fit in with what we've been talking about in the podcast because again, it's a small act that created such a ripple effect because a coworker basically just said, you should go to college. That was all that was said. And then he took the next step and it altered the life trajectory for Rihan. And it just showed that his co-workers treated him with respect and told him what he was capable of more. And then it also shows that legacy is relational, not positional, because the sanitation workers didn't have money that helped him, and they weren't famous, but they changed someone's life so drastically just by showing that it mattered and that they cared. And then finally, I think it just shows that everyone does have the power to offer dignity to someone else. So you don't need wealth, you don't need status, you don't need power. I'm sure it helps in a lot of situations, but sanitation worker that graduated from Harvard Law School is pretty impressive story.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

That is. As you were saying that made me remember a Zig Ziggler quote. I was a big Zig Ziggler fan. And he said when there's hope in the future, there's power in the present. And it, you know, it made me think of how the people gave him hope and enabled him to do his job well, get in 4.0, do all that work, you know, that went along with that.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

So simple ways really help people to be matter. So if you think about it, how are ways in your life that you can show people they matter? We mentioned a few. Can you think of any other th in your daily life?

SPEAKER_03 12:10

I think it's just acknowledging, you know, um people and let them know, especially when they're done good things. Um I I've always made a habit of it at fast food places because good service is is not the norm. And when I get good service, um I make sure to tell people, and you know, usually it's a 16, 17, 18 year old. And I just I would love to know where they are ten years from now, because they're definitely on the fast track when when when you can take a job like that and reach out to people in a way that makes them feel heard, special. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

In fact, I read a statistic and it said that 70% of our workforce is disengaged. And if you don't matter at work, that's a big part of your life. If you feel invisible and replaceable, that that's where we spend most of our time.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

You know, we're there ten, ten hours a day, most of us. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

You're right. But I think all of us can it it almost goes with holy moments and how there's just little things we can do that that do impact um what goes on. There was an oh, this kind of ties more in with aging, but 400 years ago there was kind of a poet, well, John Dome, and he wrote No Man as an Island. And I know we've used that cliche, people do no man as an island often. And it turns out it's not really just poetry, it's kind of biology. Because as the years pass and as we age and go into that fourth quarter, our worlds kind of quietly shrink. We aren't working anymore, so we aren't with people, like you said, eight hours a day. We lose friends. I know I'm spending a lot of time at funeral homes. Yeah. And it's sad, but it's part of part of life. And then when we step away from our careers that kept us connected, we also lose touch with the community a bit too. You aren't on as many boards or you aren't running into people that that you saw at work. So without realizing it, our circles get smaller. And I think it's important as we age to just support each other and to even as a person, we have to go out and make it happen. Right. We can't just sit at home and wait for people to do that.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

And I think that's where for those of us that are churchgoers, our preachers talk many times about how much camaraderie there is after the service because people aren't in a hurry to leave, you know. Because like you say, if especially for an older person, you've lost connection with so many people. That's your opportunity to kind of reconnect. And uh I always joke with my wife when we poll in, should we back in or or poll in? Because if we if we pull in, it's gonna be harder to get out. But nine times out of ten, we're one of the last people to leave anyway, so it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Oh, and that's a good feeling. There's a lot to be said because I know during COVID quite a few people turned to watching, you know, online, and and many didn't go back to their church families. Most did, but many didn't. And you lose that. You lose that connection, you lose finding out who needs help, who has happiness, just all the little connections that are important as we talk about connecting with others. And then there was another study I read from a Dr. Gordon Fleet, F-L-E-T-T, and he he's a psychologist at York University up in Toronto, Canada, and he's a leading expert on mattering too. So he kind of ties in with Wallace's book, but he looks at more from the psychological sense that if one is noticed, valued, and significant to others, it's even important for their physical health, their biological health. So his research highlights why mattering and how the risk of antimattering, and he explores retirement, as we've just mentioned, uh the loss of social roles and aging, just how it can lead to feeling invisible. And that word came up a lot with the mattering book and expendable. So this is kind of a Debbie Downer, but there's like major depression that's affiliated and associated with not mattering. And he gave the statistics and the pillars on that. But he basically said the feeling of mattering affects the health of older adults. And so questions that might be asked is if and even ask yourself, how important are you to others? Have you ever thought about that?

SPEAKER_03 16:30

Um just because of some of the books I've read, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

And then how much do others pay attention to you and are interested in what you say? And I'm sure you've run into people and some just they ask questions and you can tell they genuinely care, and then others just and then it's like, whoa, I just walked away and didn't say a word.

unknown 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

And then he also said, How much would you be missed if you went away? That's a deep question and kind of an ego extension of the feelings that others are emotionally invested in you to feel your absence.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

It reminds me, I think I've shared this with you before, but the uh Dan Miller was a guy that I used to follow a lot, and uh he's since passed away. But I remember one of his stories, he talked about the Golden Gate Bridge was the number one place for suicide. And this guy that was in a depressed mode was seeing his psychiatrist and he felt like he's making progress, but some reason he relapsed and he uh went to the bridge and jumped. And uh the psychiatrist was surprised and and he went to his house, he didn't have much of family, and he found a note on his desk that said, I'm I'm gonna walk to the bridge today, and if one person acknowledges me, I won't jump. So apparently no one did during that walk, however long it was. But it's a sad story, but it also just tells us why we need to be looking at others.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Oh, for s that because he was invisible. Yeah, and he wanted somebody to see him.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Wow, that that is kind of s that is sad. Another question that Dr. Flett brought up was how much do other people depend upon you? And I think that ties into if we feel people are dependent upon us or we have that sense that you're needed, I think that has a direct impact on someone else's life and on your life. And you feel more of a reason to be here and to matter to that person.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

There was an interesting study I heard one time where they did in a rest home where the two wings of this rest home, one they put these plants in all of them, and they told the one wing, we'll take care of them. You they're just there for you to watch. And they told the other wing, you need to be the ones that water these that care for them and whatnot. And as as small of a task that was, over time they proved that the people who had the responsibility lived longer. And they said, you know, there wasn't any other extenuating circumstances, but it's just odd that if if we have a reason, you know, whether it's to take care of a pet or to take care of a plant or you know, whatever that might be, we can add years to our life possibly.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

And that's what these studies, I mean, these they have the statistics that they've run on that, and that's what they are saying. It made me think, Chris, just last week I went to visit out at Logan Acres, and I was sitting down at lunch talking to one lady is 100 and one was 95, and they're both very cognitively sharp. They're there for physical reasons or sight reasons. But it was so cute because now that we've been talking about aging, I kind of listen a little deeper, and they say exactly what all those studies are showing. And I didn't ask the question, and and they were saying, you need to tell people that they need to enjoy every day because life goes so quickly. And they also said the golden years aren't that golden. They said, so you need to enjoy what's going on. Then they both said you need to have a purpose, the same things that the studies are showing, you need to be kind to others. And they said make a difference in this world by treating others kindly because the golden years, as I mentioned, really are not that golden.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

Yeah. So it's like, wow, I'm hearing this story over and I can remember one time stopping at Dairy Queen and for lunch, and there was a group of guys just a little bit older than me talking, and uh it was a lot of health issues. And uh one of the guys jokingly said, You'll be here quick, you know. And and I thought, well, I'm kinda already there. It's just if you've but if you focus on all the things that are wrong, that can't make you feel like getting out of bed in the morning, you know. I think you know, it's not to say that we don't have issues, but I think so much as our mindset, you know, we got to be careful of what we dwell on, what we talk about, things along that line for sure. Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Because that the there was also, I I remember reading a study in the research was from New York University, and they even found that worrying about getting older, in particular, like your declining health, as you mentioned, it actually speeds up the aging process. That's kind of scary. So I guess I remember when we were younger, it's like you couldn't wait to be older. It's like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be eight years old in three months. You know, it's like you're celebrating all, and I thought we thought it would be so cool to be grown up. What were we thinking? I mean, like, really, we would love to go back to that. But going to the um researchers, they examined the data, and there were several studies. Some was on, some were on women, some were on all different ages. But they analyzed, this is what was interesting. They analyzed the participants' blood samples using two epigenetic clocks. And so with the blood samples, they could see the speed of biological aging and the estimated accumulative biological damage over time. Isn't that interesting? How scientifically they can look at the aging process. And their takeaway was that greater anxiety about declining health later in life was more closely linked with faster biological aging. So the studies even show objective measures linking how whether you matter And how you feel about aging impacts your blood pressure, your heart rate, positive chemicals versus negative chemicals in your body. So quicker aging and mortality, if you're kind of getting depressed and lonely, it's a predictor of earlier deaths.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

I recall a a study that was done, just reminded us just this week, uh, where these men were all in their 70s and 80s and were put in an environment where everything was from the 1950s when when they were in their heyday. So the magazines were from the 50s, the TV was programmed, they could only watch shows from the 50s, the newspapers was all about the 50s. And um these guys came in, they did all these tests on their age, you know, their blood pressure and whatnot. And after I think it was just a week, after one week, they redid these tests and they they actually had returned to Wow, you know, everything had improved, even their eyesight had improved. And it's just remarkable that how how our mind can take us one direction or the other.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Absolutely. Absolutely. It it is it is. I think it's kind of when you think about what's God's plan, you know, what is his plan to unfold in your life? And if you can give that hope and you can look to that and avoid that depression and thinking that you don't matter to anybody or no one depends on you, it's gonna be a better life. For sure. No matter how long it is, it's gonna be a richer, fuller life. And it cuts across everything.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Right. You know, we've been talking a lot about older people because we're both in that chapter.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

But I was sharing with with you earlier a a story about a guy is from the book of A Million Miles and a Thousand Years by Donald Miller. And uh he wrote the book and his first book, and they they wanted to make a movie about his life, and then they started adding all these scenes that he had never lived, and he said, Well, that I never did that. And they said, Well, we've got to make something more memorable, and it got him thinking that my life's not memorable, you know, it doesn't matter. And uh he's got a ton of stories in there that go along with this subject, but one in particular had to do with, and this might serve as an example for someone younger than us, but his daughter uh got asked of the prom and the dad said, Oh, that's great, and kind of left it that. Well, a week later, his wife and daughter out by the dress, and uh when they come home, he says, That's nice. Well, she comes out and model it for him, and he's watching ESPN and and he said, You look lovely, but he couldn't go any further, you know, with those other you're my princess or things like that. And uh she retreated to the back room with her mom and they're doing their altering or whatever, and he just turns up the volume thinking he's going to get lost in his ESPN, and he said, Something just told me I need to do something else. And and he wound up, he got up and he put a suit on, and he got a camera, and he went back and knocked on the door. And when when he walked in the room, the daughter said, Daddy, you got your suit on. He said, Yeah, I I didn't want to waste this moment. I want a picture with the most beautiful girl in the house. And um, they all cried and and he danced, and he said to him and his wife and their daughter stayed up to one o'clock talking about their own proms and how they wish they knew each other when they were that age. But he he's just his whole point was those are the kind of things that you have to do that's going to make life memorable, you know. So we don't have to worry about problems for us, maybe for our grandkids.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 25:23

But it's a great idea to put in someone's mind that, hey, don't get lost in TV and everything that's taken away from opportunities. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Don't let it into your house all the time. Exactly. That's a great story. And when we were talking about going back to the beginning, mattering, it's like, how can we help people? Just pretend that everybody you see on the street or everyone in your family, the people you love, you know, has a sign around their necks if you can visualize it, and that sign says, tell me, do I matter? And that's going to give you a reaction when you see your loved one or a stranger wearing a sign that says, Tell me, do I matter? Right. And how can you help them matter? I think that is so so important. And and then another powerful question, I guess, to ask ourselves is who in your life helped do you believe you mattered? I mean, that little girl would probably say her father at that moment. Right. And are you doing that for someone now?

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Right. I think that's and like you say, it's it's everybody that we encounter. We've got a church friend circle, we've got our work friends, we've got our hobby friends. There's all kinds of people that we can have a difference in. And, you know, there's another story that we can share here, but it's the mailman, it's uh it's everybody that you know possibly we just have a brief interaction with. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

I think you had a story that tied in with several of the points we talked about. It was about a woman, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

Right, yeah. I'd seen this before, but it just came across and I got to thinking about it. This woman says, My name's Constance. I'm 67. Last Tuesday I walked into the wrong funeral. I was supposed to attend Robert Mitchell's service at Holy Cross Church. My formal colleague died of a heart attack at 71, but I got confused, went to St. Mary's, different church, same street. I walked in, signed the guest book, and sat in the in the back row. She said she didn't know anyone, but that's not always odd at a funeral. She said that uh she listened to what was going on and uh she felt sad, but then she started realizing that she was at the wrong place, but she wasn't going to cause a commotion, so she she stayed put. She said people started speaking. A mailman stood up. He said I delivered her mail for twelve years. Every day she left me a bottle of water in the summer, hot coffee in the winter, never asked for anything, just wanted me to know someone cared. A teenager spoke next. She was my neighbor. When my parents were fighting, I'd sit on her porch steps. She never told me to leave, she just brought me lemonade and sat with me. Never asked questions, she just sat. An elderly man, I was homeless for three years, slept behind her building, she never called the cops. She left food in a box where I could find it, with a note that said, You matter. More people, each with a small story, a quiet kindness, an invisible gesture that had met everything. She said, I sat there crying for a woman I'd never met, this stranger who'd lived an extraordinary life by simply paying attention. And then the pastor said her name, Constance Marie Parker, 77 years old, lived at 412 Oak Street. She said, That was my address and my name. She said she stood up confused, walked to the front, looked at the program, and it was the wrong Constance Parker, a different middle name, different address, a different person entirely, but the same age, same town, and apparently died the same week. She said, I quickly left, embarrassed, and went to the right funeral. Robert's service was fine, it was standard. People said he was a good worker, reliable, showed up on time. No one mentioned water bottles, lemonade, or notes that said you matter. And she said she drove home, sat in the living room, thought about the other Constance Parker. She and I had lived parallel lives, the same name, same age, same town, but she had been extraordinary and I'd been, what, reliable, on time, good at my job, but invisible or forgettable. Who would speak at my funeral and what would they say? She went on to say that she decided she's going to do something different at that point in time, and she started leaving things for the mailman. And she said the the first he came up to her and said, I've been carrying mail for 14 years, no one's done that. And uh she just went on and on with different things that she'd done. But it you know, it'd be a wake-up call. I mean, to walk into the wrong funeral and hear and not that be your name, too.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Oh, right. And that's a happy story.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Yeah, it is. It is. But just to think what can we do, it's not too late if we're still here, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Oh, absolutely. And I think at the end of life, we don't measure our worth by what we've achieved, as we've mentioned before. We measure it by the lives that were changed because we helped someone believe they mattered.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

I think that's the crux of all we're kind of leading up to today.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Yep. And I think just to give you a couple uh Bible verses that go along the line too. You deeply matter to God who created you in his image, you know, Jesus 127 loves you unconditionally, Romans 5.8, and intimately knows every detail of your life. You're considered a precious masterpiece. Ephesians 2 10, a treasured child valued enough that Jesus gave his life for you. And you you could go on and on and on, but um this life that we have is remarkable and it's it's um we talked before, I don't think on air, but we've talked about the odds of being born today is one and over a trillion. And there's so many things that had to line up for us to be here. And so many people think that I almost had a different dad, or I almost had a, you know, whatever. You wouldn't be here if you didn't have the dad you had or the mom you had, you know, type thing. So it's it truly is a gift of God that we're here, and and I think it's a responsibility for us to make the most of it. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

You're right.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

Well, this is going to wrap up today's show. Thank you for listening. The next time we're going to leave it in the air because we're going to continue to do some research and uh and we'll be in touch the next time. So thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Thanks for listening to Discovering Our Very Best Podcast. Please remember to like, subscribe, and share this podcast with friends. Remember, when there is hope in the future, there is power in the present.