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Dignity Dialogues
Dignity Dialogues serves as an extension of the learning that happens both inside and outside of our school walls at Beaver Country Day School, allowing community members and outside experts to share their experiences, stories, and personhood.
By sharing the beauty and diversity of human experience, this podcast delves into the power of empathy, listening, patience, and openness as tools to honor and amplify the value of each member of our Beaver community and beyond.
Dignity Dialogues
Identity-Conscious Leadership in Action: Molding Decision-Making Muscle Memory with Dr. Liza Talusan
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Dr. Liza Talusan, a lifelong Filipino-American educator and author, joins us to unpack the complexities of identity-conscious practice in education. Her latest book, Identity Conscious Practice in Action, guides educators in navigating the murky waters of identity issues without the pressure of finding right or wrong answers. Consider the role of love, compassion, and finding common ground in your decision-making abilities, which ultimately impact your community.
Listen as we trace Dr. Talusan's inspiring career journey, from her beginnings as a teacher to her current roles as a scholar and author. Her story underscores the interconnectedness of teaching, mentorship, and leadership—all fueled by curiosity, collaboration, and compassion. We also explore HackBAC, a yearly hackathon for 8th-12th grade students that unlocks and harnesses their genius for good.
Finally, discover the nuanced art of critical thinking and the importance of identity-conscious practice in driving social change. Using the case studies from her new book, our conversation highlights the importance of building muscle memory to negate the powerful emotion of fear while making pressure-filled decisions.
Welcome. Welcome back to Dignity Dialogues. Today we have a special guest, dr Eliza Toulousan. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2Hello everybody, Happy New Year. Happy New Year.
Speaker 1We're supposed to take a break, we're supposed to be on vacation, but here we are still working the day after Always. We can't help ourselves. We can't help ourselves. No, well, I want to say welcome to this episode. Instead, we're focusing on Hack Back, which is kind of my love, my child that was birthed about five years ago. And then also here we have your new book, identity Conscious Practice in Action. This is kind of, I would say, volume two of your first book in giving us case studies that we can take as school administrators, teachers I would say even beyond that, practitioners and say, okay, how many cases are in here? 40, 50? 40 something? Yeah, you can probably find anything in here to say how do we take this work through it? I love how you said there's no right or wrong answer here. It's just the question. I actually tried to myself as I was reading through it. I said, hmm, how might I try to find the right answer? And there actually is no right answer.
Speaker 1Some of these have popped up this school year already, and so I'm excited to bring this to my school administration and to my school faculty to work through together. But before we get there, I want to start off with first of all, tell us who you are, how you identify as a person.
Speaker 2Sure, yeah. Well, first of all, if you've birthed Hackback, I would like to say that I'm like the babysitter I don't need that you drop it off at the house while you walk along, that type of thing. Yeah, no, I'm Liza Toulousan. I identify as Filipino-American. I live just outside of Boston so happy to have my friend Delonte not living too far from me these days and I'm an educator, a writer, runner, speaker, mother. You know I write a lot about identity and so for me that's like complicated. There's a lot of different pieces in there, but I'm coming into 2025. Delonte, with who am I? Someone who's like just trying to find and spread peace, right, Emotional, psychological, physical, like just peace in our lives and in our world, and sometimes that peace you have to go through some muckiness to get there. So, uh, yeah, I feel like that's how I've been identifying lately.
Speaker 1The muddy waters. It's funny because I don't know about you, but this holiday season I was kind of looking forward to, kind of not. My home is dc, so I go home pretty often, about once a month. So going home isn't like it's lost its novelty, it's like, okay, I want to get on the plane. Actually, I do enjoy going home. Now on the holidays. I have this hack that I fly home on Thanksgiving day and Christmas day the actual day. You know why? Because, one, the airport is always empty and then, two, I have enough American Airlines points. I always get upgraded to first class. I have a great time. I have a great time and it's also been.
Speaker 1I think entering this new decade of 30 this year and now entering a new calendar year has really allowed me to think about, like, what do I want next for my life? I've been a teacher, now a school administrator, only for two years, or one and a half two years, but still, you know, as I look towards the next, you know marker maybe 35, 40, it's like what's next? And so I like that point of like, huh, we're at the mark of a new calendar year. We're oftentimes in this moment of reflection. People might set New Year's resolutions and that nature, but some intentions, some goals, some practice of reflection, which is so much a part about what your book is actually reflecting in our practice. I love how you brought that front and center.
Speaker 2Yeah Well, I'm excited to celebrate your 2025 and 30 year of being a podcaster. Someone's putting all this good work out there, so kudos to you for this new identity.
Speaker 1I want to think about so obviously we're doing a podcast right now. We're actually recording virtually so we can see each other, but those who listen can't see us and thinking about getting to know you a bit more as a person. There's often things that we might assume about your identity. We might think that we might connect with, because what you've mentioned as a mother or athlete or as a writer. But have you ever heard of the New York Times questions? 36 questions that lead to love? Have you heard that before?
Speaker 2No, but I feel like I'm about to.
Speaker 1it's, it's like I don't know, it's very pre-pandemic, um, but the point of it is it's kind of actually set up for like dating, but I think it's actually really used in the sense of like how do you get to know people beyond the surface, right? And so it kind of has different levels to it, kind of you know entry, immediate or and then more advanced questions, and one of the questions are what do you wish people knew about you that they can't sense or tell?
Speaker 2Ooh, what do I wish people knew about me that they can't sense or tell? That's a great question, because I feel like I try to live very transparently but maybe it doesn't always come across so okay. People make assumptions that because I do like DEI or anti-racism work, that I must like hate white people, Like I'm like angry all the time, and I want people to know like that's actually not what drives my work. Like I wish people knew that I'm really driven by love and compassion and I'm really driven by finding commonality and connection. And so I feel like I get misrepresented as someone who's always trying to look for differences and therefore differences are bad. And I'm like no, no, no, you really mistake that about me.
Speaker 2Like I'm. I love this country so much, I love this world so much, I love schools so much, I love education so much that I'm investing everything that I have into making sure that it's doing the best by people possible. And so I think sometimes people misname that I must be anti-American or that I must be anti-everything. I'm actually I'm not. I'm like really driven by love and compassion and it's how I wake up in the morning in this work.
Speaker 1So I don't know if that comes across to people or not, but I think it's an assumption folks make You're setting the record straight, right, although you might maybe perceive that in this, I think that's a really I think also as a DI practitioner, right, like that's one part of my identity but not all of my identity, and so therefore, actually we'll get into this a little bit later about Dr Leslie A Noel's work, which would be Informants for a Hackback, talks about being in a state of critical awareness and I'm like to be in that state is actually exhausting.
Speaker 1I'm tired. I'm tired every single day, right, and so that's why these vacations and times off are so good to just rejuvenate and recharge. But I really wish I didn't have to be in that critical state all day to survive, because it's a lot, it's taxing, and so I think that I like how you kind of you know shape that that's my work as a part of who I am, but not all that I am as a person. So the name of this podcast is Dignity Dialogues, and so I'd like to start off with talking about describing a moment in which you felt that your dignity was stripped, and then, conversely, with whom or where do you feel like your dignity is most valued? I love this. Or honored, amplified.
Speaker 2Yeah, I feel like my dignity is most amplified and it's probably no surprise why I write about identity consciousness. I always feel dignity when there are people who accept every part of me, like kind of the raggedy parts of me and the polished parts of me and I kind of know it when it's happening where I just feel like I don't have to act or pretend I could just show up in all these different identities that I hold and not have to over-explain or represent a stereotype Like I just get to.
Speaker 2I just kind of get to be me yeah and isn't that so basic.
Speaker 2It's like, oh my, I feel the most dignity when I just get to be me, ta-da, so basic. I do have really key moments, Like we call them, core memories sometimes of when my dignity was super stripped of me. And those are the times, delonte, when I feel like my actions or my intent has been misrepresented and so I can. Maybe it's like maybe your question earlier about like what do I wish people knew about me was kind of getting at this too. I think people make assumptions that I must be so angry all the time or that I must be so anti, fill in the blank, and I feel like that's when they start to strip away who I am, that they must essentialize that I'm just this angry Asian, anti-american, something, something. And I'm like, wow, you are really stripping away everything that makes me driven by love and compassion and humanity. You're essentially stripping away my entire humanity when you boil me down to those three words. And so that's happened a couple of times. It's happened in schools, it's happened when I was basically and as a fellow DEI director just doing my job and been told I was doing it wrong or I was doing it the wrong way or I was divisive, like anytime someone calls me divisive, I feel like my identity and my dignity gets stripped away.
Speaker 2I also have to say you talked about going into your thirties. I'm entering into my fifties soon. I feel like the older I'm getting, the less crap I give about what people think about me, and so those times where I have heard people kind of gossiping about me or talking behind my back you know I had done a presentation at a conference last year where I said you know, if you I I quoted Tom Holland of Spider-Man and I was like the quote was you know, if you have a problem with me, text me. And if you don't have my number to text me, I kind of don't care that you have a problem with me. Like, and I feel like that's when people like friends, when you or someone wants to give me feedback about who I am or how I'm showing up, bring it. Like that actually reinforces my dignity. You care enough about me to make me better.
Speaker 1But when?
Speaker 2people just kind of gossip or cheat on me about it. Like it just I'm done, I'm so over that part.
Speaker 1Well, you said the key word right there gossip, right, Like gossip, is actually a violation of one's dignity. And then two, I think kind of to combat that is what I'm hearing is you saying that these people who are talking ill about me actually don't know me. They don't know my story. And I think that if we could give enough time to share our stories and that might sound cliche but if you knew where I came from, if you knew what I went through, if you knew my struggles, my trials and tribulations, that might inform why I act the way I do and why I present the way that I do. And so how do we carve out time in our day, which is crazy, Wow. But it can't happen though. Right, People tell stories in the most crazy places airplanes, bars, you name it. Right, In the DMV, you can find that time Because you're there for so long. But we find time right, we have the most.
Speaker 1There's something audacious about having a conversation with a stranger. Right To live into that vulnerability. I know you're for it. Actually, the kids are good at SDLC. Comment on that. They say why SDLC is so powerful is because they get to meet these thousands of people and there's an intimacy there with them already, but they also know that at the end of those three days they may never see them again. That's right, and so that allows them to share some of their deepest, darkest secrets with people and they're like, well, you have no control, I'm done Right, but that gives them that space to do that. So I love that right, Creating that time and space to share our stories as human beings.
Speaker 2That's right, and even as you were describing that, you know I have this term that I use called identity consciousness. Describing that, you know I have this term that I use called identity consciousness and I mean you summed it up so well which is like who we are informs and impacts how we act and how we interact with each other, how we see the world around us, and so we can make lots of assumptions about why people behave the way they do, why they think the way they do, but until we engage in this dialogue, this conversation, this revealing, we actually never know the whole story. So identity conscious practice is about understanding that process where we inform and impact so much of our worldview. So I put a term, I put words to it, but people have been talking about listening to stories, understanding each other forever. I just kind of like attached a phrase to it. But that's exactly. Identity conscious practice is exactly what you just described.
Speaker 1But that's exactly identity. Conscious practice is exactly what you just described, and to me it's as if I put my administrator hat back on. It's a reminder to be that much more. I think I already am conscious of my identity, but you need those reminders when you're in crisis, when the heat of the moment, to actually, as you were, getting to that. The big theme is slow down, slow down, slow down to process, to analyze, to make sense. But in the moment right, it feels like you're trying to move a thousand miles per hour and so then the body right takes over and you can't be a conscious person in the moment but we'll get to that in a moment.
Speaker 1I want to talk about your journey from teacher, practitioner, administrator to now scholar and author. As I read this book I'm like, hmm, could this be me in the future? Maybe we'll see. But for those who might be curious, right. So one, walk us through your journey of how you got here to this place as being a scholar, author, and then two for anyone who might be a practitioner or administrator what nuggets do you have to them who are making that jump to that next place, potentially in their career?
Speaker 2Yeah, that's awesome, and I even like how you're framing it as these jumps, because for me, when people ask me this question because I do wear so many hats what's interesting is they're always built from the same thread, so it's not like I'm a long distance runner and a swimmer Like they all do kind of weave together. So I started my journey. Actually, I mean, I've been a practitioner the whole time. That's an identity that I've never abandoned. I think of myself as a practitioner scholar, someone who engages in the work and uses theory to inform that which is kind of like what we should all be doing anyway, but I always leave with practitioner, like that's who I am.
Speaker 2So I mean I've never not worked in education I'm going on almost 30 years now with the exception of I used to work at a pool supply store in college but, like every summer I worked at summer camps in the classroom, like I have always, always been a teacher. So that part has always been with me, whether it's understanding the formality of how to build 60 minutes or 75 minutes of a lesson or just the inquiry process that I want to engage in. That's been with me my entire life. So, whether it's been as a student affairs administrator, in admissions, residence life, multicultural affairs, student activities, career services, or whether it's been in the K-12 schools, k-8 schools, k-5 schools, like it all is actually built from the same thread and I think for me it's less been about what is the role and the skill set that I've had, but it's been what is the disposition Like? I think about the disposition of educators as being curious, as being collaborative. I think about the disposition of educators as really wanting to amplify critical thinking. Educators are always interested in compassion, whether that's compassion that students build together or building compassion through literature or history or reading, and then we always, as educators, really focus on collaboration. So, for me, curiosity, critical thinking, collaboration, compassion, community, like those are present in teaching, reading, authorship, scholarship. So these dispositions I've always had.
Speaker 2And then I've just taken those dispositions and kind of honed the skills that I've needed the skills as a teacher, the skills as a curriculum designer, the skills as an author, as a way to kind of produce this product or this outcome. So you know, as you were saying, delonte, where you're like maybe that's me one day, I'm like it already is you. You just haven't presented the product right. The product was these books, but your product is this podcast, and maybe the product is the book or the product is a professional development workshop you're doing.
Speaker 2But I always think about, like, what are the dispositions that one would need in order to responsibly engage in that field? And then, what are the skills that you need to build? Like, as we both know, just saying I love kids doesn't make you a great teacher. You have to build the skills of teaching. Or just because I went to school doesn't make me a good teacher, like, that's a skill set. So I think it's disposition plus willingness to build skills equals whatever this product or outcome or career you're looking to be in. So that's kind of how I've done it.
Speaker 1And as you think about the launch of this new book of yours, we know it was really inspired by the first book, but what made you say, okay, I have something else to write. I have something else. I got to get off my spirit and give to the world to inform, whether it be classroom teachers, dei practitioners, school administrators, how to actually put this work into action.
Speaker 2Well, that is exactly right. It was teachers and educators and school leaders who were like, how do I put this into action? And I was like, well, I can tell you. But actually, to your point in the book, it's not a tell-all book. I don't tell you ever how to do it.
Speaker 2My disposition, again, is inquiry, right, my disposition is curiosity, and so I wanted to write a book where people could be curious about what the different outcomes would be, based on people's identities and their life experiences. So it's probably no surprise you and I, both as DEI directors, can be presented the same scenario and totally come up with a different solution because of who you are and because of who I am. And, to your point, I wouldn't say that Liza did it wrong and Delonte did it right, like it just is. It just allowed us to be more responsible. So the case studies book number one is built on real world scenarios I mean there's probably like 80 more we could write in there.
Speaker 2That was not exhaustive, even with 40 scenarios in there and it gives people the ability to practice responding to these kind of situations before they actually happen. And I'm guarantee you, of all the 40 in the book, I and you have probably experienced all of them in our careers at this point. So that's what made me want to write the book. I wanted people to understand that this identity conscious practice was not just a philosophy. It wasn't just like oh, that's a cool way to think. I need you to use it, like, take this framework and apply it in everything that you do. Yeah, to put it in action. So the book actually came to Lante from other people saying I need to practice Like I need a vehicle to like actually bring this to life.
Speaker 2That's how it happened.
Speaker 1I love that, so you answered the call of the bell, so to speak, and I think that's a great segue. We're going to hack back and then we'll come back to identity conscious practice and action. To give some background context on hack back Hack back was born out of summer 2020's racial reckoning due to work that I do with the Black of my Collective and my alma mater, st Andrews, down in Potomac Road, and so people may not know the background story of this, actually, but we were given a gift that had to be spent before that fiscal year, and so normally, when you are maybe in a startup phase, where you're actually trying to seek capital right to get your day off the ground, we actually had the capital but didn't know what to do with it, and so, as part of our mission of the BAC, we've kind of targeted some areas of scholarship funds. We did some internship and professional readiness programming and we said, okay, how can we might tap into this area of social entrepreneurship, particularly for black and brown kids, and so continuing kind of with that lens off of summer 2020, we were very kind of micro focus on this population within our independent schools and said, okay, how can we, five black alum, try to create some impact in the world through this program. And so long story, short right.
Building Community Through HackBAC
Speaker 1Hackback was born with our mission to inspire and cultivate genius and young people of color who innovate upon their social impact, and there's probably three key operating words in there. I would say inspire, cultivate and genius, and so with those three things, we have built this. I don't know what to call it. Honestly, it started virtually right as a conference. We started in April 2021. We were crazy enough that we enjoyed it so much that we did it less than the calendar year later, in January 2022. We did a hybrid model thereafter at St Andrews and online. This past year, at Beaver, we did it, and now taking it back down to St Andrews next year, or actually in a month or so, for our fifth iteration. And so I don't know if you actually know the story of how do you remember how you and I got connected for Hackback?
Speaker 2Oh my gosh, isn't this funny. I just feel like you've been in my life forever.
Speaker 1That's an honor You've been with me for a few years old. No, no, no, I remember the story. I remember the story. I remember the story very well, so I'm going to share with you the story.
Speaker 1So I had this idea, myself and my peers and a good friend, mentor of mine, slash ex-boss, dr Rodney Glasgow and I were out for brunch and so I said Rodney, I'm creating this, you know this conference. Can you help me out? Would you mind speaking as well? And then he said okay, who else might you like to have, you know, be a speaker? I said oh, I don't know, in some way, somehow your name came up during our conversation and I he literally wrote to you on his iphone while we were at brunch. And then I said oh my gosh, rodney is connecting with liza. Omg, I'm gonna have a fangirl moment. And as I did, and you responded pretty quickly, I think you responded like within that day, um, and said yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1And so then the rest is history, as they say. But you have really been, uh, you've been at all four and now going to five hackbacks, and you and ron, you have really been our bookmarkers. So you start us off with one um, helping our students understand the theme of hackback. So hackback is geared towards a through 12th graders. Give us really I would say you really help break down the terms of DEI and you actually put J in there as well, so that we're actually using informed definitions of these words tied into the theme. And then Ronnie at the tail end gives them some last minute inspiration as they pitch to a panel of judges. But my question to you in this moment is why do you keep returning the hack back? Oh well, I mean why, besides being asked what keeps you coming back?
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean it's not funny. It's like even just the language using coming back. I feel like I never leave. I feel like hack back is just something that is a part of what I do and who I am, and so it's you know. Even as you were breaking down the calendar, I was like, oh right, I guess it does only happen once a year, but it just feels like we are constantly in a relationship of making sure that you know your genius and that we're engaging in young people's genius. Like I just feel like it's it aligns so much with who you and I are as practitioners and certainly Rodney in there as well and anyone else affiliated with it. So I mean I keep coming back one because it's inspiring for me.
Speaker 2I mean you know, so much of what we do talk about in education related to racism is about problems and deficit, and that and part of what I am excited about is the participants in Hackback are addressing those deficits.
Speaker 2But the ways in which you create such empowerment and, like gosh, you are the ones who can think through this so critically Like I just feel like we're like the ultimate hype people like these amazing, intelligent, incredible, inspiring black and brown youth and white allies that come with them and I don't know.
Speaker 2I mean again for me, like, why wouldn't you want to be a part of that? It's being able to witness, like young people engaging critically to address social issues that, let's be honest, many of we, many of us, as adults, created and have watching them work towards something that they didn't even start, I think, is I mean right, like who wouldn't want to be around that kind of energy. So I'm always so honored and grateful that you continue to invite me and I just feel like it's not a separate event for me, like it is. It continues all year about what I believe in and the kind of communities I want to be around. So it is just you can even notice, for those listening right, like my speech, the way my pattern was just like, and now, like you can probably hear me, there's so many pauses like I just yeah, so much of what I feel about a hackback is just metabolized in me and so it's I'm having like this challenge of like actually just verbalizing this feeling that I have.
Speaker 1It's a hard thing to articulate, like not to toot my own horn, but as we were, as we were um doing our first mentor training, it's like we have six mentors who are returning and we have two who are joining us this year and it's a hard thing to articulate in words to those who are trying to come in. I'm like it's going to be crazy. The kids might act like they have nothing to do. They may act like they're actually, because the hard part about Hackback is having the kids work really over three days to create a solution for said problem, for said theme, right, and so kind of the the.
Speaker 1The fear is, the worry is that by Sunday, by day three, they won't have a tangible and it's always initially when you like the labor that goes into trying to get logistics on the X, y and Z, but you step back and you look and you're like this is it? Yeah, the vision realized.
Speaker 2Yes, I mean toot your own horn loudly, and I hope you're all the way through this too, because what you're mentioning is like look what can be accomplished and you had just said three days but look what can be accomplished when people believe in each other, that people believe that a solution is possible and that we can collaborate and come together with that Like, where else do you see that kind of energy and experience? And I love your point where they say, like there's no way we're going to come up with a solution or something to propose, and yet they do right, like it's possible. And I just don't know a lot of spaces in this world where adults or young people walk into a space where we just inherently believe you, like we inherently believe that you are a human, that's believe you, like we inherently believe that that's the dignity piece actually to bring it full circle.
Speaker 1and I'm wondering how do we bring that more to our schools? Like what if school really looked like that and felt that? That? Felt like that, each day you walk in. I believe you have genius, I believe in your hair and worth and therefore we're gonna be in partnership and collaboration to I don't even say solve, but just to work on our world together, like I think. That's that's the thing. I think solving maybe adds a connotation that there's a problem. It's more of just like we are here together in community to tend for our world.
Speaker 2Amazing.
Unlocking Genius Through Mentorship and Ideation
Speaker 1Yes, yes so simple yet so complex, right. So the opera. I went back to some operating words. Right, the key word in this is genius. And it's funny because I'm kind of telling myself I don't actually quite know, I can feel where the word genius came from.
Speaker 1I remember we started something called the Scaling Squad. It was basically an advisory council that was really looking at how do we make Hackback sustainable. So it brought in heads of schools, it brought in former mentors of Hackback, it brought in business owners thinking about, okay, from the business side, how does this thing, you know, actually work and function? And one day we had a great session and I just kind of like kid you, not like put all my thoughts on the paper. It was like a 10 page Google doc, it was like Delonte, you are crazy, but it was great. And this word genius right appeared.
Speaker 1I would say in the sense that for me, I think using that word genius is going to sound cliche, but I think it is about claiming the word genius. That's not often used for communities of color, absolutely. And when we ask the kids at Hackback, we ask them OK, so who's a genius right in your life? Who's been presented to you as such? They aren't often people who look like them.
Speaker 1No, the stories of who we tell who are geniuses, quote unquote in the world, don't often reflect and give uh windows or mirrors for our students to look into and so kind of holding in on that where we actually have to define it a little bit more. And so we define genius as exceptional intellectual or creative power, that power to use your God-given gift you might call it that universe-giving gift right To one be creative in space I think about this podcast also kind of my creative outlet in that way too but also your ability to be an intellect, to be a scholar, to be one who can be in the academy right and promote new knowledge forward. So my question to you is who have been people in your life who have inspired, cultivated and activated your own genius?
Speaker 2Yeah, I love this question because I think in many ways we have narrowed the definition of genius to just be intellectual and so I love that the creative power is in this I think about like musical genius. I think about John Baptiste, I think, you know, in many ways like Lin-Manuel Miranda for me is a musical genius, like the way he just thinks about lyric and rhythm and rhyme and the way all that works.
Speaker 2But so those are famous people, right? But when I think about other people who are genius, it's important for me to always also look younger than me, like I'm no lie. Also look younger than me Like I'm no lie. I think I have three children in my life and in many ways I ascribe them as genius in terms of their understanding of human and emotional capacity and who they are in terms of, like empathic engagement with people.
Speaker 2I think about that kind of genius too that is embedded in our youth, who don't get a lot of attention. I think about genius in terms of understanding, not just you know and education was a buzzword of like social, emotional learning but I think there are people who are really genius about understanding human connection and how to get there. So when I think about the work of Hackback, it does sound so cliche to say like we inspire and empower, but there's something very genius about that, right, like you, if I were to ask people well, how do you inspire and how do you empower? That's getting at these methods, this genius that is behind it. And so, again, everybody says we inspire and empower, but there's something really collaborative, curious, exceptional about what happens at Hackback to create the conditions for genius.
Speaker 2The other thing that I think is like I think people are everybody's walking around with genius and they haven't always had the ability to unlock it.
Speaker 2So I could be a genius swimmer right, I can understand, like how the body moves and the way it coordinates, but if I live in like a landlocked space with no pool, I will never unlock that genius. So I really do believe honestly, authentically, that people carry genius all the time and don't always have the opportunity to engage with it. And so for me, like genius is all around me. You know, again, I think about my three kids, I think about some other, like musicians, in terms of creativity, you know, I think about some public scholars who every time I hear them or see them speak or watch a video, I'm just like, well, how did you, how did that happen? How did you jump from there? Like that's amazing.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2I've been trying to do a lot more. I always say less scrolling, more reading. And so there are some authors where I'm like whoa, that was an amazing sentence, like how did you ever come up?
Speaker 1with that I have to share. I'm laughing at myself. Someone who's popped into my orbit as of late is author, scholar, poet, joshua Bennett. Are you familiar with Joshua Bennett? No, you need to be Okay. So I was introduced to Joshua Bennett's work. Francis W Parker in Chicago hosts the Advent of Color Conference, so I was there this past October and he was one of to Joshua Bennett's work. Francis W Parker in Chicago hosts the Add New Color Conference, so I was there in this past October and he was one of the keynote speakers.
Speaker 1Talk about someone who just has you like listening to every single word, like you know what they say, that lecturing shouldn't be a thing, no, that he can lecture me down for two hours and I'm just tell me, talk it to me. And he's great because he's actually local here, teaches at MIT. So I'm hoping that he'll be a guest on the podcast sometime soon in the future and we can collaborate with Beaver and MIT. But I would add him to the list of geniuses who went to independent school, actually Went to White Country Day School, I believe, went to UPenn afterwards.
Speaker 1Just the way he has with words is astounding, right afterwards. Just the way he has with words is astounding, right. Like to me, I would say as a black person, why he inspires me? Because he is a. He is an exemplar of like what it means to be you know from the city and also be a scholar. Like you can do both. Duality is there, okay, like it's possible, and you don't see that often in nation america, right, but that to me is like, ah, this is and this is it so good, all right, I'm on it.
Speaker 2I right, I'm on it, I will be checking out the new player.
Speaker 1I'm to your list. Coming back to Hackback, though, I kind of want to get into more of the theoretical piece. Thinking about, like, hackback isn't just come and have fun, but there is actually some academic background behind it, and so I think there's four key pieces to what makes Hackback Hackback. And it has been actually inspired by your work, dr Leslie and Noel and Dr Gordy Muhammad. And so you started with a mission statement, right, hackback inspires and cultivates genius and young people of color who innovate possible social impact. Now it's the how.
Speaker 1How do we do that? We have this concept called the map to genius, right, like? Genius, to your point, can be cultivated, it can be taught. Right, it can be unlocked. So how do we actually do that?
Speaker 1We give our participants meaningful mentorship. So they're each, each uh student is placed on team with a mentor. Uh, we affirm their environment, right, that celebrates all of their identities. And then we also promote transformative ideation, right, like this idea that, okay, you started here on day one, day two, it might be something different, and day three, it might be also different too. Right, we embrace the messiness of the process of getting to there. Right, like I think it's.
Speaker 1We really have created a space where it's okay to be wrong, it's okay to disagree, it's okay to go through that phase, because through that chaos you can find the beauty. That's what Morrison says. So I think that really is a cornerstone to what Hackback is. And then we get to our guiding question, which really centers, I would say, all that we do, and so our guiding question is how do you use your genius to see the issues around you, recognize your agency and act to impact positive change? And I'll say that again, there's three key words in there how do you use your genius to one, see the issues around you. Two, recognize your agency. And then, three, act to impact positive change? And I think about kind of diving into your work as an identity conscious educator and thinking about this process of building knowledge, engaging in reflection and moving to action. How do those things, how are those in synergy, would you say, as students come together to ideate for positive social change?
Critical Thinking for Social Change
Speaker 2Yeah, synergy, it's like the same thing. Right there, we basically are saying the same thing, because I mean, I always tell people like you know, that's like, that's the formula, like that is what we should be doing. So you talk about it as seeing the issues around you. The way that I translate that is build knowledge, and the essential question is what is it that I need to know? And the way that we answer what is it that I need to know is I have to be observant, I have to see data, I have to see interactions, I have to see what's happening around me, or I have to just gather information about this issue or this problem or this situation that we're in. So that is absolutely the first part, your piece around recognizing agency.
Speaker 2The way that I translate that in my work is engage in reflection. And the essential question that we're answering and engage in reflection is so what does this have to do with me? What is my role? You talk about it as what is my agency? Like, how is this impacting me? What does this have to do with me and my world? And sometimes people will say, like Liza, that feels really selfish, like what does it have to do with me? And I'm like, okay, but that's just how humans work.
Speaker 1I mean we rarely Liza Rutherford to me.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm not going to pretend like we live in an ultra altruistic world where people just do things to do things like there's always something in it for us folks. So what is my involvement? What is my agency? But what is what is my connection to? That is really what I'm getting at.
Speaker 2And then your piece about act and impact positive change the way that I translate that has moved to action. Like what is it that I'm supposed to do? And what I love about how we have these parallel pieces is any one of those is insufficient. So if I'm just going to build knowledge, like great, like what am I supposed to do with that? Engage in reflection, if I just sit and think all day, okay, have fun. And if I move to action without building knowledge and engaging in reflection, that action is usually replicating some sort of oppression or in some sort of negative experience. It's the practice without the theory. So all three of those have to happen in order for us to engage responsibly and meaningfully in work that impacts some sort of change. So I think they. Maybe that's why I feel like Hackback is never just this thing that happens in January, like it's always a part of who I am and what I do, because our guiding questions just align so closely.
Speaker 1And I want to circle in as I thought, as I listened to you speak, I thought a little bit more about actually the second piece of that, which is recognizing your agency. I think, as we put that there intentionally, was thinking about our youth and thinking about where they are in their lives. I think school is a lot about building knowledge, right? Yeah, um, the action piece might come more naturally because you're a doer, but it's the question of who has told you that, where you are in this point in your life journey, you actually have power to have impact, right, like, do you as, especially as a marginalized person in our world, do you recognize within yourself that you can actually use that? You can hold people in power to the fire, hold them accountable and giving them that space to light them up, to fire them up, to go get it done, because I think in most of our schools independent schools, so to speak that isn't happening every single day in that space targeted for them.
Speaker 2Yeah, for sure, for sure, and that also the engaging reflection piece. Right, that agency can change.
Speaker 2So the agency of an eighth grader is different from the agency of a 12th grader and so it's not a finite moment. We are constantly examining what that looks like at these different stages in these different places. I mean you mentioned, like you have, dc and kind of Boston. Is these dual homes like those geographically are different, the communities are different and so that engage in reflection your agency changes in those differences. So the process that you hack back uses, and that I use, that framework of those three questions, allows us to continue to be fluid in who we are and what we understand. It allows us to move beyond a binary solution to a problem and it it allows us to move beyond a binary solution to a problem and it just allows us to engage in much more criticality than you know, a more like static approach to work. So that's actually why I think it works so well in terms of asking questions about agency as we change.
Speaker 1And Dr Gordy Muhammad talks about criticality right.
Speaker 1The key piece, I think, actually with all, if any of the five pursuits stand out the most, I think that is the one that we try to, that we try to impress upon most students are like going back to power, recognizing agency to disrupt anything that might be happening that might be causing harm to someone in our world, and so I think that's the key piece too right when, as kids are creating their solutions. Is this furthering right, harm or oppression, or is it interrupting it, disrupting it, and also being mindful of whatever solution that we try to create will always have unintended consequences. That's right fact of the matter. So can you have enough foresight to see what those might be and who might they impact unintentionally, absolutely all you're trying to do good in the world yeah, absolutely, and that's why I'd like, with the identity, conscious practice and action.
Speaker 2And, to your point, there's not a right answer. Part of the process, part of the like dialogue and discussion questions are what is the impact of your decision?
Speaker 2And so we constantly there. You know you're going to make a decision either way about a situation that's happening in a school or in your leadership, and part of that is understanding what is the impact of that decision and is that the impact that you want? Are those the consequences you're willing to engage in, if not? Go back to question number one and, like, re-evaluate what that's looking like. It's a super frustrating process. It's why I love Hackback because I love frustrating students, but it's a frustrating process to not come up with and you had corrected me earlier to come up with a solution.
Speaker 2And you had corrected me earlier to come up with a solution. The frustrating process is engaging in critical thinking, and critical thinking is the outcome. Yeah, but that's a hard one to like, kind of like put your stamp on when you're so used to having problems solved and then you're moved to the next thing on this hackback piece with our theme for this year, which is drum roll, change makers.
Speaker 1Creating sustainable social political no-transcript. As you prepare to kick off Hack Back once again this year, what immediately comes to your mind about this year's theme?
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean there's so many key words that you have in there that I appreciate, but I'll just say, based on the conversation we've been having today, words like sustainable and shared really really stand out to me. You and I had started talking about how we need a vacation. It's hard to always be in this critical space all the time, and so we have to engage in work that's sustainable. I think for those of us who have been critical problem solvers, particularly around social issues, you know I always say I don't think I'm going to see the solution in my lifetime, and so I have to continue to engage in behaviors that are sustainable, to move work forward, and that is an intentional practice.
Speaker 2You have to think about what does sustainable mean? And then this aspect around shared society. We have spent so much time being divisive. I mean, historically this country is divisive and, for those who know my work, I publicly talk a lot about being Asian American and how I wake up pro-Black every day, where I have to actively engage in dismantling anti-Blackness from my learning, my socialization, and I have to wake up and consciously engage in behaviors that amplify and advance Black people and Black communities. As an Asian American, because I see us in a shared society, and so I love the entire theme. But those words around sustainable and shared, I think, especially coming into 2025, are so key to provide opportunities for our amazing geniuses coming to Hackback.
Speaker 1As you think about them. What kind of if you can look at the landscape right now, what opportunities do you see, or maybe just kind of very clear, that they might actually use to jumpstart their ideation process?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think we have to start really thinking about the ways in which we historically have worked together in marginalized communities. I think we spend a lot of time learning about our each individual identities and we don't whether it's our schools or us or our books we don't spend a lot of time talking about these shared movements that we've had, and I think 2025 is going to call us, for all of us to be in a shared movement to do work forward, because in this country, the political environment is going to be about dismantling, and so, as we think about being changemakers, as we think about engaging in this work and creating sustainable social, political and environmental impacts, we have to really start thinking about how can we come together in identity consciousness when the world is trying to continuously pull us further and further from each other?
Embracing Identity and Diversity in Education
Speaker 1Yeah, I want to segue us now to identity conscious practice in action, which is the follow-up to identity conscious educator, building habits and skills for more inclusive schools. We talked about already what inspired you to keep writing on this, and in chapter one you define that an identity conscious educator sorry approach is the process of realizing who we are, informs and impacts how we act, interact and see the world around us. That actually probably is a great, I think, tie back to the theme of Hack and Pack, right, yes, this year, but like, why is that so important? One and then two on the flip side, why is there such a reticence to acknowledging identity in the first place?
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean it's so important because we are who we are, right I mean. So you identified as being earlier on the podcast as being a Black man, and how important was it for you to also see another Black male scholar from the city? Those were identities you just mentioned and those were things that shaped who you are and kind of what you're looking for. And so for me it's similar. I'm always looking for radical Asian Americans, asian American women, to be that voice of a community that's trying to do work forward. I'm always trying to look for Asian American practitioners who are working in solidarity with Black practitioners. Those are identities and they drive what I'm interested in, what I'm advocating for. So it's important because it helps us to clarify the mission and what we want to do.
Speaker 2It is not surprising to me that people push back on that. I mean, I am much older than you, so I grew up in the 80s, 70s, 80ies, where people would always say you know, they would misquote Dr King all the time Like I don't see color, I just see people. I'm like, well, that's interesting, cause I'm actually, I have a color. So when you say you, you know. Again, when you say you see, you don't see my color. Like you've essentially whitewashed me and I'm I'm not white. Like nothing in my experience has been white. And so I think there's this reticence to talk about it because we haven't built habits and skills for engaging in it positively.
Speaker 2I think diversity is awesome. I think differences are amazing. Like again, I know people can't see us but, delonte, you and I couldn't be more different in terms of age and geographic region and race and looks and family. Like there's so much about us that's different and for me, that's what makes our relationship incredibly interesting. Versus like, oh, I just see you as a teacher or as administrator. Right, there's more to you than that. And so I think there's a reticence because people are uncomfortable with this idea that our differences are actually what make us super interesting. But all that said, of course I see people as people. Like of course I see you as like the light within you. Like of course there's that, but I can't erase that you and I, walking late at night on a street, aren't going to have different experiences. Right, like that's all true. So I just need people to see the truth in that so that we can keep each other safe and healthy, right, and like a part of a community.
Speaker 1You talk about that piece and you're. This is a great kind of moving us forward to chapter three. I think it was a great gem that she dropped there about. Sometimes people confuse noticing race with discriminating on the basis of race. Right, ignoring race does not cure racism. So you posit that right. We need to notice it, name it right and interrupt that behavior that might lead to discrimination. Tell us more about that. Yeah, I mean I would say I'm going to ask more questions to follow up with. That too is like, as I think more about that, are there other identifiers where we can maybe attach or assume the same logic? So, for example, right, if I were to tell someone I don't see your disability or the fact that you're using crutches or a wheelchair, would that make sense? Right, like you're using it. So let me help you accommodate for that. How can I be a good citizen to you?
Speaker 2Well, and you use that example perfectly, let's take the disability one, because I think that's one people have experienced, whether it's a temporary disability, because they've been on crutches, or they got out of the chair too fast and like their leg fell asleep, like whatever. Yeah, it would be silly to not take that into account. Right, every summer we take the kids to an amusement park and even there, in order to ride the roller coaster, you have to be so many feet tall, like I can't put a two-year-old on the loop-de-loop right, because there's safety issues, like they have to be able to fit in the harness. There's things we need to take into account, so sure folks will be like you're discriminating against my two-year-old who's two feet tall, or it keeps them safe and alive.
Speaker 2And it's actually not that far of a leap to think about how thinking about identity helps me to keep people safe, right, so if I have a friend who has mobility issues and I want to like schedule an outing, I'm probably not going to go rock climbing. Like that would just feel awful, unsafe and insensitive. Like if my goal is to build community, why would I make that choice? In my book I do write about, you know, my own child who lives with a disability, a visual impairment, and I have another. You know, friends who have hearing impairments.
Speaker 2Like, for me it's less about like, oh, that's not fun to think about differences. For me it's about, well, like, how do I want people to feel? I want them to feel included, I want them to feel safe, I want them to feel loved, I want them to feel like I thought about them and so, yeah, I think disability is a good one. I mean, another one that people often think about is like allergies. Like if I'm having a party and a friend is vegetarian, like I should probably have something without meat. Like we do this in such basic ways.
Speaker 1It's very simple, yeah, but when it comes to the race piece and I might pause it because we haven't addressed it fully in our country then it becomes this um has so much weight to it, right, and so you try to, because you, because you haven't, to your point, built the skills or the habits to engage in healthy conversation around it, it is an easier to dismiss it than having the conversation in the first place.
Speaker 2Right, right. So if you're telling me that you have a particular experience as someone who identifies as Black, and you're my friend and I want to keep you safe and I want you to feel loved and I want you to feel included, then I have to take seriously the impact of blackness that's had on you. Again, similar conversation, different topic, and in no way I don't want anyone on your podcast to believe that I'm equating racism with a gluten allergy, but it's just like. In the end, I want people to feel safe, loved, seen, understood and invited, and so, whether it's race or it's a dietary or it's disability, like that consciousness requires us to do more, and that's all that was being like, asked in this world around identity consciousness. And so ignoring someone's allergy or ignoring someone's disability or ignoring someone's race doesn't end that challenge, like at all.
Speaker 1And I might, you know, go as far as to say it's honoring their dignity Once again. Another example right Of like this is who I am as a person, whether I have an allergy, this or that, like because you care for me, then you make it an important, you make it a priority to honor that in my humanity. In the introduction, you state that the goal is not to solve the problem. Rather, it is to engage in a thoughtful process that may reveal their multiple solutions to any one problem or challenge, and so my question to you is with my school leader, hat on, do you think that we're obsessed with solving problems? Well yeah, are we problem-solving obsessed?
Speaker 2It's what we do. It's what we do as teachers and leaders. We love solving problems and we have to right. That is usually why people hire us and choose us to be leaders. They didn't hire us to be Olivia Pope. There you go. Nor have Olivia Pope wardrobe. So maybe I would reconsider and listen. Like I get it right. I mean, I give the example in my book. You know, if the building's on fire, I need to know the exit routes, like I need to know how to get there. So what do we do? A thousand times a year, we practice fire drills.
Speaker 2And yet we seem to think, like these big moments around race or racism, or like challenge or change, that we don't have to practice that Like why wouldn't we practice it? So this book allows people the opportunity to practice like same type of thing. I mean, let's take the fire drill, for example. You know, I could say here's the route right. Second graders take a right down the hallway, go down the stairs, do this, ok. Well, what if the door is blocked? Oh, got to come up with a new plan, and so sure, there probably is a solution. And we also have to train for what if that solution doesn't work. And so the identity, conscious practice and action, or even just this whole process, allows us to say what are the multiple ways that this could be thought of and what are the multiple ways that this could be solved? In the end, we do have to pick one of them, but like we never take the time to think about all the different possible solutions, and I might think about it in a different way.
Speaker 1It kind of like I think it's exercising risk management honestly too, as well Like. I'm thinking about, okay, here's scenario A, b, c or D, which might allow us to experience the least risk as an institution. That's right, Whether it be financially right, whether it be all these other myriad reasons. But at least we've gone through that process and understanding if we choose X option, then Y, z, whatever might incur, and that's okay.
Speaker 2And I'll also say sometimes we choose the most risky and sometimes that's okay, right, it's not always about like what's the least risky. Sometimes the most risky is actually what we need to do. But that requires dialogue, doesn't it? And that requires um having diverse viewpoints to find out. Well, it might not be risky for this group, but, like, it's really risky for this group, and unless we kind of play that out, unless we're aware of identity, then we just go with one answer every time again, and we should be practicing it for the scenario right Again in a fire. I know we're not just standing there going. What do you think we should all do? Like we had a plan right?
Responsible Decision Making Muscle Memory
Speaker 1Are we bringing those who might be the most impacted by this decision to the conversation, to the room, to the table? Where is their voice ultimately considered and how this decision might impact their livelihood, their experience, their identity in our space? I think, ultimately, we see ourselves as caregivers, as caretakers at schools, right, whether it be of our faculty and staff, of our adults or of our children, of our alum, of our parents right In the minor constituency. We are here to care for them as people. And so I love this last piece to wrap up here. To me it was like, yes, mic drop, you made this so validating statement, I think to me and my own personal philosophy as a school administrator, and the fact that you say the work begins with us, the decision makes the keepers of the power in these schools right. The people, the people who are administrators, right, the head of school people who are on that admin team, ultimately are the power keepers and takers of the institution. But I think on the other side, on the flip side of it, is that oftentimes we discuss the institution as if there aren't people who run the institution. Isn't this amorphous thing in the sky? Right, there are people who made decisions that either have moved something forward, had held it back, have kept it stagnant, and oftentimes in high stakes situations, we say, well, the institution, well, who's the person behind the institution that made that decision? And so I think my question to you about this really is you said, in order for us to be mindful of that power right, in order for that work to happen, I think probably the most pervasive theme is slowing down to build muscle memory and the way that I think probably the most the most pervasive theme is slowing down to build muscle memory right, and the way that I think about muscle memory.
Speaker 1I was first introduced to that term. I'm an avid tennis player and I remember being on the tennis court. I don't know what I was, I was in my early teen, adolescence years and I was learning how to put topspin on the ball. And for many people, topspin happens with how you pronate your wrist up. It happens. It's a technique, right, it's a skill. You have to practice for it.
Speaker 1And so my coach at the time he had me up at the net he said, Delonte, I want you to practice brushing up on the ball and having the ball go from low to high over the net. And he said the point of doing this was to help build muscle memory so that when you're in moments of crisis and a match right, when you're in moments when you're down, when you're in moments when you're not thinking your best, your body can act on its behalf right and do that stroke, that technique for you. And that, to me, has always been the amazing thing about muscle memory right, like when your body acts on its behalf because it knows what to do, but it takes reps right, it takes practice and it doesn't happen. It takes years, honestly, for tennis, for pros, to get there. But why do we not give that same time in schools to build the muscle memory for these important things that we need when it comes to solving problems?
Speaker 2Right. And to extend that metaphor like here's the differences. So if I was standing on a court and a tennis ball came flying at me, I would duck and run.
Speaker 1Put it out in front, have a volley.
Speaker 2You as a tennis player would probably I don't know, if you had your racket you would hit it. Or if you were there, like maybe you'd grab it or you'd pump it away, like my first reaction would be to cower and duck.
Speaker 2So, because I have no muscle memory for this. And so when I think about decision making so if we are in a crisis situation and I've never been in it, I've never practiced it, the court is unfamiliar to me I might make decisions out of what? Out of fear, right. And you and I know, and your listeners know, that leadership decisions made out of fear are almost never productive, they're never the right thing to do, and so when we fail to train that muscle memory, then everything is instinctual and that instinct is usually fear-based. So, to your point, we as administrators, the decision makers, the keepers of this, we have to practice this so that our muscle memory is one of slowing down, considering all the options and ideas and engaging in responsible decision making. I love your tennis analogy. It fits so perfectly, it's great, isn't it?
Speaker 1But it's so real. It's like if you have not built that, like the idea is in theory, I should be able to hit a ball with my eyes closed, right, because I have the muscle memory that I know where the ball is going to go and I know how to hit it. You don't want to hit a cross court forehand or down the line, background, right. I have enough reps that my body knows the motion of it to get the ball on that place on the court, right. That's the idea.
Speaker 2That's the theory. That's the idea.
Speaker 1That's the idea, Whether it happens or not, and I tell you we'll end off on this. I'm like raving about. Have you been watching Dune Prophecy? It's on HBO Max.
Speaker 2Yeah, hello.
Speaker 1It is, it's of it's very like. Have you seen the Dune movies?
Speaker 2Like I have to admit, I'm old enough to know that these are remakes, and so I saw them in, like the 80s.
Speaker 1They're so good and they're so relevant to me and my 30 year old self and it just gives me it's like it's my escape from the world, love it and I keep talking about it each time I can and they talk about like fear to this place. At the final episode, I'm going to give a spoiler.
Speaker 1I'll try not to Spoiler alert, but it's a connection to the movies, right? It's the point of how do you actually live into the fear and let the fear pass through you so that you can be your whole self, your most powerful self, to confront that moment. If you let the fear take hold of you, then in the agony they call it, the blue potion will actually succumb to it. Right, it will take over you, but you have to face those fears to become your most powerful self. Wow, and I'm like, oh, it's so good.
Speaker 2You don't have to write the intro to book three or something like that, it's so good, it's so good, it's so good.
Speaker 1That's really beautiful. So, to those who are listening, you have like 40 plus case studies in here. Is there anyone that like jumps out to you the most of? Like? Hmm, school teams, educators, practitioners, you should focus in on this one. That's like a really good one that you might want to use on your next PD practice when you go to school on Monday.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, you know what? There is a really. I mean, they're all really helpful, but I think the one that continues to surprise me was one I actually co-wrote with one of my kids and on the surface level, it's in the sexual orientation chapter and it was actually talking about bathroom access. And as someone who identifies as cisgender, who uses a women's bathroom pretty easily it's not an experience that I have a lot I can assume that I'm going to be accommodated with a bathroom if I needed to in any public place. And so the case study started to be written about just bathrooms and it ended up actually challenging adults to think about well, what is the reason that students might be afraid to use certain bathrooms? So I, as an adult, was trying to solve it from a physical facilities perspective, and my coauthor, my child, was like oh, it has nothing to do with facilities, it has to do with why do people feel unsafe to use bathrooms? And I was like, well, thank you for the case study, because I feel like I just had to do it myself. So, yeah, like in each of these case studies, but in particular that one, I was like oh, wow, Like even I was approaching it totally differently, and so I think in the last paragraph of that case study we actually added it where the children, the students, were meeting with the administrators.
Speaker 2The administrators were trying to solve the problem with a facilities answer and the kiddos were like yeah, that's not actually why we want to meet with you. Like yeah, I was like what, and so I just think that's a good one. If there are people who work with young, with the youngsters, with children, with students, how often do we put our adult lens ahead of what they're actually asking us? I think that happens more often, Don't you think? I mean, you work so closely with students. That happens a lot.
Speaker 1It does, and I think actually not. I think this is actually a great example of kind of the mission of Hackback, right? I love how you tapped into your child's genius, right their own lived experience, to say like, hmm, what do you actually need in this moment? And I think to your point as the adults I can think about my calendar is so busy, right, I'm trying to get from one meeting to the next, so there isn't that time to actually slow down and to ask that question and have the conversation with the student. I try to do a better job of it, but when do we as the adults bring them in when it's appropriate to say, hey, like we're facing this, this issue as a community? What do you all think I'll actually say? I think Beaver does a good job of really trying to be student-centered and to really put their needs first, but I think we can do an even better job of it.
Developing Perspective and Muscle Memory
Speaker 2Can't we all? Yeah, we definitely can, we definitely can, yeah. And the book is filled with a lot of those moments and I'm so grateful again that my co-authors were just a lot of my children and moments where I was like, oh, I would have solved it like that.
Speaker 2And they were like, yeah, no, don't do that. I was like, well, good thing, I'm not writing a how to book, I'm just I'm writing like a what do you think? Book. And so, yeah, I think the book is filled with a lot of those moments where you, and if you and I were even to do the case studies together, we would probably disagree on outcomes. And that's the point, right, that. The point is to be able to consider different perspectives.
Speaker 1Right and that we built that muscle memory so that when they, when they do come, cause, they will, they will, they will, that we can put ourselves in motion and get to it. So I want to say thank you for this time together. We will see you at the end of January for Hack Back, our fifth iteration. Thank you, Dr Eliza Toulousan, and be well. Happy New Year.
Speaker 2Happy New Year, thank you.