S2 E2: Mirror, Not Sponge: Navigating HR and Bad Bosses featuring Sarah Vaughn Benjamin

What happens when your manager treats their job like Gollum from Lord of the Rings – clutching tasks while muttering "my precious"? Sarah Vaughn Benjamin knows exactly how this feels.

During her seven-year journey from academia to corporate HR, Sarah encountered the classic territorial boss who demanded help yet refused to delegate meaningful work. "I was just stuck," she recalls, describing how her manager claimed ownership with the chilling words: "It's my department." This stark example of leadership insecurity left Sarah feeling underutilized despite being repeatedly told she was "a rock star" – a phrase that now makes her cringe.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn as Sarah reveals how COVID-19 became her unexpected catalyst for change. Furloughed and uncertain, she leveraged social media to connect with others who had pivoted careers, ultimately transforming her student life experience into a corporate learning and development role. Her resourcefulness demonstrates how career transitions often require both careful skill mapping and the courage to leap into uncertainty.

Now an HR Business Partner, Sarah shares a profound insight from her therapist: "You can't work in HR and be a sponge. You have to be a mirror." This powerful metaphor captures the delicate balance HR professionals must strike – reflecting situations back to managers rather than absorbing all the emotional weight themselves. When managers avoid difficult conversations or create unnecessary barriers for employees, HR must help navigate these challenges while maintaining organizational integrity.

The episode concludes with practical advice for listeners dealing with career-blocking bosses or suspected "quiet firing." Sarah and host Natalie emphasize the importance of documenting patterns, asking direct questions, and paying attention to how managers respond. Whether you're facing a territorial boss or fighting for professional growth, this conversation provides the strategies you need to maintain your dignity while advancing your career path. Remember: disappointment often stems from misaligned expectations – but you have the power to clarify yours.

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Transcript

Expectations and HR Boundaries

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 0:00

Because I think a lot of disappointment comes when you have your own set of expectations that are not the same as somebody else . You can't work in HR and be a sponge . You have to be a mirror .

Natalie Parker 0:13

Welcome to this episode of so your Boss Sucks . Now what ? I'm Natalie Renee Parker , your host , and I'm excited about today's conversation . Have you ever met somebody who was just like super nice and you wanted the best for them , and they're really good at their job ? Well , that basically describes my next guest and my friend , sarah Vaughn Benjamin . She is seven years into an HR career in varying different organizations . She's going to talk to us today about her experience as the business partner in HR and having pivoted from an interesting career as she started and how she got to where she is , along with how she's had to deal with some of managers .

Natalie Parker 0:55

As I played the role of HR leader in several different organizations , you'd be surprised how many times I've had to work alongside a boss that sucks , trying to mitigate their suckiness on their employee base . So we're going to talk a little bit about that . Also , we're going to read your stories today , so stay tuned . We've got a lot to talk about on today's . All right , so welcome my guest , sarah vaughn benjamin . Her linkedin bio and everything will be on the website yourbosssexcom , but let's welcome sarah good to have you .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 1:39

Thank you for having me . I'm excited to be here I'm excited , have you ?

Natalie Parker 1:42

It's been so long and I almost forgot your married name .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 1:46

I am , yes , yeah , sarah Vaughn Benjamin . It's a threefold name now .

Natalie Parker 1:51

Sidebar . So we were talking about it and we've decided that if men had to change their names after they get married , they weren't getting into marriage , they wouldn't change their names at all .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 1:58

No , it's too much .

Natalie Parker 2:00

It's a lot Too many logistics Anyway . So I'm excited to have you . You and I talked and we were preparing for our conversation today . We were talking about what it takes to pivot in your career . So start talking . Yeah , I've said it before , I'm an Xer or Cusper , because I'm kind of right on the mix , but as a millennial right . You coming into the workforce your first job , you landed the job in academia , yes , and you had a very interesting experience there .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 2:33

Yes , I did yes . So I actually went to graduate school to get my degree in higher education . So I was studying how to work with students in their student life area of their college career . So after I graduated , I got a job in student life where I was working with students as they prepared for their leadership skills , learning how to be a leader , different types of leaders and how they could be a peer leader , which would prepare them for their future careers . I was in that field for about two and a half years before I switched to corporate life , where I've been the past five or so years .

Natalie Parker 3:16

But let's talk to me about your first leader coming out of college . What was that like , especially in the academic space ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 3:26

Yes , so that was an interesting experience . I had never had a full-time job before . Of course , that was my first full-time job and I didn't really know what to expect when it came to leadership . I didn't really know the dynamics of how things were supposed to play , and I was still very junior in the fact that I didn't know how to speak up for myself and how to best interact in a professional environment . And so I came in and I had a leader who had many , many years of experience in this field , many years of experience in this department .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 4:07

That's exciting , yes , very exciting . Lots of knowledge , lots of background and insight . My brain works a lot very well on insight and information gathering , and so it was really cool to be able to have all of that historical perspective of how things have changed and grown . I pretty quickly realized that it was going to be difficult to delegate some of those years of experience and some of those tasks and ownership to a second person . I was the first person in my role in this department . There had never been this role before , and so there wasn't a lot of clarity around division of duties , how things would be delegated , how things would be owned , not having a lot of autonomy in what I was doing because I was leading this group of students and I had a leader who was used to leading these groups of students for many , many years , and so it was really difficult to have that sense of autonomy when the person that had been in this role my supervisor was so Territorial yes , territorial , very close to it and didn't really seem to want to let go .

Natalie Parker 5:33

How did that- ? I'm always fascinated , right ? So I would imagine I'm going to just make up the- . This is my story . This is not what happened , but my story that I'm telling myself is . Here you have someone who really has been doing the job forever , has probably been begging for help Like I need a person , and then along comes the person and magically you can't pry the work out of their hands . How frustrating was that .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 6:00

It was really frustrating . I really value autonomy and being able to do my own work and being able to for lack of a better term prove my worth that way . I really enjoy being able to figure things out myself and learn by doing and gathering that information , and so it was difficult to forge my own path when I wasn't given full ownership of what I thought I was supposed to be given ownership of .

Natalie Parker 6:31

So what did you do ? Did you confront her ? Did you talk to her ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 6:35

So there were times when I would ask for work . There were times when I would indicate oh , I have some bandwidth , I have some time , what can I help with ? I tried that softer approach . There was one time where we were both involved in a pilot program for the Grander Student Life Arena and both of us were part of it , and so in my one-on-one one day , I asked if there was a possibility , if I could focus on one area of our department and if she would be okay with focusing on a separate area of the department so that I could have my own experience in this pilot program . And the response that I was met with was very defensive . What did she say ? And the response that I was met with was very defensive . What did she say ? She said that it was her department and that if she wanted to be able to participate in this program for her whole department , that it was her right Because it was hers and she wanted to be able to oversee all of that .

Natalie Parker 7:43

She sounds like Gollum from Lord of the Rings , my precious lady A little bit and I was really taken aback .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 7:52

I was really trying to be brave . Like I mentioned earlier , I was still very junior and not being able to speak up for myself , and so I talked myself up a lot for this , to really try to stand up for myself and kind of set those boundaries , and I wasn't really met with a positive response , and so I was really discouraged after that and it ended up working out to where I kind of was able to get some of those boundaries that I had asked for , but the initial response was not great .

Natalie Parker 8:23

So what would you tell someone in that situation ? Because I think territorialism is another example of leadership or individual insecurity . When a leader is not comfortable , either they don't know how to tell you what to do , they don't know how to teach you what to do , or they're scared that if you do it , that they will be seen as either incompetent because it took them so long to learn it , or they will be seen as not doing work , because you're now doing the work a lot . And then there's there's the people who they've been doing it for so long . They wouldn't know what to do if they didn't have the work they're doing . So what would you tell yourself ? Like now , like someone that's in that situation ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 9:10

Yeah . So I would tell somebody that it's okay to speak up for yourself , it's okay to set boundaries , and you're not always going to be able to control the outcome , but it's important to look out for yourself and understand that you have your own career path . You have your own needs , wants , desires when it comes to your growth and development in your career . And if you don't ask , the answer will always be no .

Natalie Parker 9:43

That's fair right . My grandmother would say close mouth , don't get the answer will always be .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 9:47

No , that's fair right .

Natalie Parker 9:48

My grandmother would say close mouth , don't get fed right . So the other thing that I've done and I shared this in last season , if you want to go back , I think it's episode four where I talk . No , it's episode two , where I talk about a boss who didn't want me because he thought I was like somebody's relative , and I ended up finding my way and making myself valuable to the organization . I think it's important for us to recognize that you're going to get a job and you're going to get paid one way or another , but it's up to you to try to figure out how to add value , and one way we do that is by figuring out what's important to the other person . One way we do that is by figuring out what's important to the other person , right , what their interests are , trying to soften them up . And it seems counterproductive to beg for work , right , and I'm sure there's some of you like I ain't begging for no work . They going to pay me and I'll just sit there .

Natalie Parker 10:45

But if you do that , the chances are that more likely than not that leader's going to be like well , I don't know what she does , so we should fire her . Right ? It's an interesting dichotomy . So how did it end up ? What ended up happening ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 10:51

We were able to have our separate focuses in that program . I was able to focus on the student leadership and my manager was able to focus on a different area of the department . But that didn't change that I felt uncomfy about it . You know , I knew that I had tried to set up my boundaries and that we had had kind of a difficult conversation , and so anytime that we were specifically working on this project I was worried about stepping on toes , because that was the initial response that I had gotten . And so I in a way got what I wanted , but not without some anxiety behind the curtain which takes people don't understand .

Natalie Parker 11:38

When you have anxiety at work , it takes away from your ability to perform because you're still driving energy to a part of you to muster up the strength to be courageous enough to do the work in the first place , which is super exhausting . Yeah , so you left academia and you pivoted Talk to me about the grand pivot from like dealing with college students to now dealing with grown adult babies .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 12:03

Yes , so I often say that HR is , or the role that I was in in academia was like HR for 18-year-olds . I was working a lot with conflict management and leadership styles and even territorialism amongst the students and understanding how we can navigate those barriers . The big pivot for me from academia to corporate America came when COVID hit . I think that was probably a huge pivot for a lot of people because it gave folks a time to think about their priorities and their goals and what they were doing with their life , and I was furloughed at the beginning of COVID .

Natalie Parker 12:45

What is furloughed for people who don't know .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 12:47

So a furlough is a temporary layoff , for lack of a better term . It is when you are not permitted to work , you're not paid during a defined period of time until you're called back to work .

Natalie Parker 13:01

It's like that episode in Friends where they're like we were on a break right Like

Sarah's Career Path in Academia

Natalie Parker 13:05

we're not together , but you can't go anywhere else , you can't go anywhere else .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 13:10

You're still employed , but you're not making any of our money , so just sit tight until we decide we're ready for you to come back . Luckily , I was told kind of that time frame at the beginning . You know you're going to be furloughed for eight weeks , so I had two months to kind of sit and figure out what I was doing with myself during a time where there wasn't a lot of flexibility in terms of group activities and getting out in public and doing things because of , you know , the health status of our country . So that was when I really started to think about okay , this doesn't feel very stable because my role was affected by the economic status of the country , et cetera . And so I started to think about what my other options were . You know , do I pivot to a corporate world ? Do I look for another role in academia at a different institution ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 14:10

And my dad had kind of been you know in my ear a little bit about I really think you would be good at HR , I really think that you should do this .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 14:19

You know he would ask me questions about what I thought about his teams and how he should address things , and so I started looking , I started thinking about what I thought about his teams and how he should address things , and so I started looking .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 14:28

I started thinking about where I could use my skills and I really relied on a Facebook group that was focused on folks who had been in student life and had pivoted elsewhere . And I was really lucky to catch that Facebook group at a time when they were hosting webinars focused on various industries so HR , education , tech , insurance , whatever it might be and so I listened in on an HR webinar and learned about how I could use my skills and market myself to pivot . So I was taking a look at my skills , at the work that I had done , a lot of curriculum development , training and I noticed that learning and development might be a good pivot for me , and so I started looking for learning and development roles and I was able to find one around . You know , about a year into COVID , which I felt really , really lucky to be able to make that switch .

Natalie Parker 15:32

So you go . I think one of the things that I love about the story is that you knew you needed to change right and you know , not having a job for eight weeks , although you had a job , is a good impetus for changing right . But I love how resourceful you are at finding a group of people who had done what you wanted to do in terms of pivoting . A lot of times we will find ourselves in positions and we're stuck right , like I don't want to be here but I have no idea what's next , and we're stuck right Like I don't want to be here but I have no idea what's next , and I appreciate your resourcefulness and going to just at least look and see okay , what else is everyone else doing . And I'd say that to you if you're in a sucky situation where your boss sucks and you know it's time to go , if you need to pull the rip cord , have an escape plan like what other opportunities that are tangential to your experience that would allow you to make a pivot .

Natalie Parker 16:29

Sometimes that comes with lateral move . That means you're not getting more money . Sometimes you may need to take a cut off top . That means you're going to take a little less money , but it gets you out of your current misery and into a new opportunity . So talk to me about this move to corporate .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 16:44

Yeah . So I was really nervous . I didn't know similar to you know , starting my career I didn't know what to expect . I you know you hear all the rumors or tropes about what corporate America is and isn't . And I also knew that I was really excited to start something new where I felt that I could use my skills . So I started out in learning and development and I was onboarding employees , I was delivering soft skills training to new hires as well and I had a lot of exposure across the business . And I had a lot of exposure across the business . You know , we were a pretty small organization and I was really lucky to get in with various departments and various levels of folks across the whole group .

Natalie Parker 17:34

So , as you go through corporate America , how confident were you about being there ? Like what did it feel like ? Were you excited ? Did you feel like you belonged ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 17:43

You were like oh , my God , I don't know what I'm doing . It was a steep learning curve at first . You know , I think anytime you join a new organization there's going to be acronyms and lingo that you're not familiar with . So it was not only the lingo of this company , but also just corporate lingo in general . I remember , towards the beginning of my role there , it was either my manager or a coworker using the word enterprise . I said I don't know what enterprise means .

Natalie Parker 18:12

What does that mean ? That doesn't mean Star Trek .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 18:14

Right . And so finally , one day I pinged my manager . I said what does enterprise mean ? And they told me oh , that just is referring to the entirety of the corporation , but just things like that where I felt very not insecure . But I was just a little fish swimming in a big old pond and I didn't know where I was going , and so it was a little bit of a learning curve at first , but I knew that for my role I had the skills that I needed to be able to do the actual work .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 18:49

So it was this weird balance of like you know , can I do this ? Yes , but also what is going on .

Natalie Parker 18:56

Yeah so . So talk to me about your first , your first corporate leader .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 19:05

That was . That was a tough relationship . Uh , I I mentioned earlier I really enjoy being able to own work that I'm doing and being able to put forth a product that I've worked on , and that was not the case in my experience in that role . I worked really hard when I was doing my onboarding with new employees , but that was essentially all I was doing and so I probably put in in a 40 hour week eight hours of work a week and that was really tough because I had this anxiety of I need to be online , I need to demonstrate that I'm I need to be part of this organization , that my role is necessary .

Natalie Parker 19:53

Because you had just survived furlough Right , and you're in the middle of COVID ? Yes , and you're new to the team yes , fun times .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 20:00

And . But I also want to strike that balance of like okay , well , if I ask for work , am I going to seem like my role is redundant ? Am I going to seem like I don't know what I'm doing ? But also , if I don't ask for work , I'm going to be bored out of my mind .

Natalie Parker 20:12

What did your manager say ? Is your manager All right , sidebar , it is your manager's job to define your role , right , and I hate that you had to kind of go begging for bed Like please can I have some more when it came to work . Right , but it's

Territorial Leadership Challenges

Natalie Parker 20:27

your manager's job to define your job . It's your manager's job to make sure that you have a full plate on your desk . It's your manager's job to make sure that your time is occupied . As a full-fledged adult , it's important for you to communicate , that you have a space and you have capacity . But it's their job to help you fill your job . It's their job . So I mean , what did your leader say ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 20:54

Yeah . So I remember there would be times when I would mention that I had bandwidth or ask if there were any projects that I could help with , and I would be met with the response of nope , we're good , you know , just keep doing what you're doing . But then in my head I would be like but what I'm doing is barely anything , and so I was just stuck . I would try to collaborate with other people , even on my team , and so I would collaborate , help brainstorm things . And I remember one time I reached out to my manager and I said hey , I was working with my coworker . We thought about these things , I have these ideas and I think I can help with this , because I know that my coworker is really overloaded and I have some bandwidth and I would love to help with this . And I was told to stay in my lane .

Natalie Parker 21:47

I love that Stay in your lane . And what that meant to you was mind your business , don't try to help a colleague , stay in your lane . And what that meant to you was mind your business , don't , don't try to help a colleague , stay in your lane . Yep , how many of you have been have ever been told to stay in your lane by your leader Like ? I think most companies would probably find this a bit appalling if they knew it was another colleague trying to help another colleague . And usually stay in your lane is a way to control what's happening or for them not to get involved in understanding what's happening so that they can best support either employee . But stay in your lane is dangerous because it creates silos , right , it creates boundaries that are not always necessary . I think sometimes it's good to be like hey , listen , I don't know about enough about that to know if their leader would be okay , and then the leader could have negotiated . But that's not what happened . Your man was like stay in your lane .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 22:40

Yep , yep . And , like you mentioned , of course there are times where it's not going to be effective or the best use of somebody's time to both be working on a project . In this case , I think , I was looking for work and I knew that my co-worker was overwhelmed and I was looking for ways to help , and it tangentially aligned with my role , and so at that point I was like , okay , I'm not really sure where to go from here . I tried to advocate for myself . I was being told no , and I'd asked for work and I was being told nope , you're a rock star , you're a rock star , keep doing what you're doing . And so I was . The word rock star really makes me cringe . Okay , because , because of that experience , because I was told all the time you're a rock star , you're doing great at what you're doing . But I'm sitting over here looking at my empty calendar , looking at my empty calendar , looking at my empty to-do list and saying , okay , what am I rocking ?

Natalie Parker 23:41

so , so let me ask you this was he ? Did you find him to be in the authentic ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 23:46

inauthentic yeah yeah , there were times . I definitely think the way that he presented himself to others , um , versus the way he presented to me , there was definitely duplicitousness . Yes .

Natalie Parker 24:00

So what was like , what was the worst thing , like an experience , Like what was the worst thing that happened .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 24:07

The experience that stands out the most was so , like I mentioned , I was responsible for facilitating soft skills training was . So , like I mentioned , I was responsible for facilitating soft skills training and at this point I had sat in on trainings that he had led . I had probably had a chance to lead them myself with shadowing . And there was a day where the soft skills training was supposed to happen and my manager was sick big old cold headache , couldn't barely talk . And I said well , I can do this . I've seen you do it , I know the material , I can facilitate it . And he told me no , no , I'm going to do it . And I said okay , well , are you sure ? You seem like you're not really feeling very well . You know you seem pretty sick .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 25:02

I really don't mind you know , trying to pacify a little bit and he said no , I've taken Tylenol , I have a box of tissues right here and I was okay . So you're going to blow your nose in front of everybody while you're trying to give a presentation which you know by all means , but that was just like wow . For one reason or another , you don't trust me to do what I know and I'm confident that I can do .

Natalie Parker 25:32

Is this like a first level manager ? Is this first time managing ? Like how high in the organization was this role ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 25:39

This person was one level above me . I was an individual contributor . I believe he was at a manager or director role , so not super high , more of that mid-management level .

Natalie Parker 25:50

But in terms of doing a new hire or soft skills training like it's not , it's not hard , no , probably should not have been in his job jar .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 26:05

Right , right , and it was in my job jar . It was in my job description . It is what I had been told would be my role eventually , but the eventually was a long time .

Natalie Parker 26:19

A long time , like weeks or .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 26:20

No many months .

Natalie Parker 26:23

And did he ever give you feedback as to like , hey , you're not , like , was there any gates of like ? Here's what success looks like . So this is stage one . This is stage two . This is when I'm going to take the training wheels off .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 26:33

No , I was just a rock star .

Natalie Parker 26:38

A rock star . A rock star , all right . So what would you tell anybody that's in that situation , where , again , you're in kind of this territorial circle of someone not wanting to give up your work , to give ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 26:51

up your work . Yeah , I mean I wish I had asked that manager for feedback Well , no , I won't say that , because I think I did ask for feedback and I was met with that same phraseology but I think I would have asked for maybe a timeline , like you were just saying you know , would have asked for maybe a timeline , like you were just saying you know what does it look like ? 30 , 60 , 96 months down the line . When would you expect that I would be able to take the reins on these things and just ask for a little bit more clarity around his expectations versus my own expectations , right ? Because I think a lot of disappointment comes when you have your own set of expectations that are not the same as somebody else .

Natalie Parker 27:36

That is powerful . Say it one more time . A lot of disappointment comes .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 27:40

When your expectations are not the same as somebody else .

Natalie Parker 27:45

And you don't talk about it .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 27:47

That's interesting .

Natalie Parker 27:48

And I totally agree with you . I think a lot of times we have we often have an expectation of someone we don't articulate . But I'm sorry that happened to you . So what happens next ? Like so , so you leave that later and you eventually the company or so I pivoted to another team where I was given more agency .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 28:12

I was pushed out of my comfort zone to learn about my own skills from Natalie herself , and I'd never been pushed like that before . Nobody had told me or asked me questions that made me think about how I could do things differently . Because , you know , being in those first two roles , I logically knew that there were areas of growth , but nobody had pointed them out to me and nobody had really thought or cared enough to say this is how you can get to this next point . And so I was given opportunities . I was allowed to brainstorm and think about things from different perspectives . Of course , it only lasted a couple of months before you know Things happened . Things happened .

Natalie Parker 29:07

But I remember look one , I have not . I didn't pay her to say these things , right , but I remember saying and I said this to everyone on my team my job is to make your resume look sexy . Do you remember that ? I do remember that my job is to make your resume look sexy , that when you leave here , that the next person is clamoring to have you , that you have leaps and bounds experiences where you know you've done it , you've done it well , you've learned from it , even if you fumbled . But it's leaps and bounds beyond .

Natalie Parker 29:37

And I didn't want to do your work . I've done that work . I had been doing that kind of work for I was like I don't want to do this work , but here let's figure out how we can get you and get you the experiences and have your ownership . I think Dan Pink says that when people are working , the best kind of work that they want has autonomy , mastery . And there's a third one , oh God , I can't remember it , but it's this idea of like people want to own their work . They want to own their work . I want to be able to , especially in the kind of knowledge work that we do . There's no need for us to share this work as a leader .

Natalie Parker 30:12

you really need to be coaching people and removing barriers and that sort of thing , and so I promise you I didn't tell her to say all of those things , but it was fun right , it was fun and it was fun to um to help you get your confidence , cause that was the other thing . Like when you have a boss that sucks , you don't realize how emasculating , how exhausting and how much confidence sucking it is out of you .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 30:41

Right ? Yep , I remember when I had to pivot out of that organization , being afraid that I wouldn't be able to market myself because I didn't have any work to show for it . I'm wondering how I was going to demonstrate my capabilities in an interview when I didn't think that there was much to show for it . And I just remember when I was on this new team , I was able to make my own presentations and get in front of leaders and still work together with the team . Right , I owned the presentation and I was the leader of the presentation , but I still had a team to back me up and to provide ideas during the presentation when our leaders asked questions , and it was just a short stint when I got a taste of what I wanted , and then we had to shift .

Natalie Parker 31:40

Yeah , yeah , so so now you're an HR business partner , I am . You were on the other side , right Cause we were in that talent management space when I , you're on the other side .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 31:50

So talk to me about being a business partner and having to coach leaders that you know may have a little suck on them like that make life difficult for others have to deal with , whether it's an ego or , um , unwillingness to listen , and so a lot of the learning that I'm doing is understanding how to best interact with different types of people , which is the biggest learning point for me . Um , my therapist always says that you can't work in HR and be a sponge . You have to be a mirror .

Natalie Parker 32:37

Yes , that's a real . Your therapist is smart . That's really really good . I think it's because emotionally you could take on so much stuff from both the company , the management and the employees that you just leave heavy Right . I used to work for a company where I used to have to do layoffs quite a bit because the contract you'd win a contract , then you lose a contract and it's just a lot of emotional weight and I love the idea that . As as HR like and everybody likes to blame us , everybody likes to blame HR Let me tell you something More often than not , it's your leader that has an accountability and we are there to coach them right .

Natalie Parker 33:16

We're there to coach them through what they're supposed to do , and it's their accountability . More often than not , hr didn't do something to you , right , but that's usually the rep we get . So that's thing number one . Thing number two is the mirror that we hold is to try to help the leader understand their accountability or their employee , use an employee to understand the accountability , and a lot of times , some things that we can't tell you is usually we know when you have bad leaders , we're just not allowed to say it , and so we have to navigate to like oh , he's terrible , but how do we ? Or at least his leadership skills are terrible , or her leadership skills are , at least his leadership skills are terrible , or her leadership skills are terrible , or their leadership skills are terrible , but how do we help them navigate so they mitigate the damage that they're doing to the workforce ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 34:04

Yup , and that could come in a lot of different ways , right ? So sometimes it's just a manager not wanting to have a performance conversation because they don't want to deal with it or they don't want to confront it .

Natalie Parker 34:18

That is so like it's . That is literally one of the biggest , most common things .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 34:25

Yes , and then it gets to a point where the manager comes to you and says OK , I want to fire this person . You pull up the profile . Oh , I don't see any discipline on record . Have you had any coaching conversations ? Have you had any verbal warnings ? Written warnings ? No , okay . Well , let's pivot and start there , because it's not fair to the employee to not be aware that you have these concerns and we need to give them a chance to turn it around , because we don't know if they just don't know what they're supposed to be doing . We don't know if they're going something really personal and maybe they'll turn it around . We don't know if they don't have the skills and they need to be upskilled or if they need mentorship . And so it's really on the manager to have those conversations to help with growth and development , to be candid and have that good feedback .

Natalie Parker 35:18

But do you see , I agree , and I think that is both on the manager and on the employee because , if you want to keep your job , you better be talking to your manager .

Natalie Parker 35:28

Yeah , at the end of the day , they are an agent of the company . I will continue to see . They are an agent of the company and so if they're not talking to you every I don't know eight weeks , you need to be engaging , instigating a conversation , requiring some level of feedback and making them feel uncomfortable until they do Not like rude , but just uncomfortable . Like , hey , listen , do you have any feedback ? And if they

Making the Career Pivot During COVID

Natalie Parker 35:52

give it to you verbally , what do I say ? Document everything . Go back to your desk . Bob , it was so great to meet with you . I really appreciate when you said I was doing well and I am a rock star . Right , and here's what I'm doing this week .

Natalie Parker 36:08

It's important for us to hold people accountable . You know I talk a lot about mutual accountability , like so the boss has an accountability to you , but you also have accountability to them because you signed up for the job . And in this knowledge space especially , I mean even in a blue collar space , like you guys say listen , hey , I want to check in , how are we doing ? What am I missing ? And make them talk to you . And if you cannot , that's when you go back to HR .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 36:31

Right , yep , yes , even my husband this week was wanting to make sure that his manager knew what he was working on . He's in this big kind of shift with his company right now , and so he's kind of working for two bosses .

Natalie Parker 36:45

That's fun .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 36:46

Oh , so fun . And so he's trying to make sure that the boss that hired him is satisfied with the work that he's doing , but also that his new boss also understands what he's doing . And so even just last week he said hey , manager , I here are the things that I see as my priorities this week . If you need me to shift my priorities , let me know . But I wanted to just make you aware so that you know what I'm up to essentially , and that goes to that accountability , so that your manager knows what you're working on . There's a lot of times where managers will come to me and say well , I don't even know what they're doing . Have you talked to them ?

Natalie Parker 37:25

I literally just had this conversation with one of our other guests , so I said I was like , listen , there's an article out in Forbes I think it's Forbes or Fortune , I can't remember but we'll put it up on the screen and put it in the show notes that there's talking about there's a flattening in leadership that companies are starting to just wholesale wipe away their middle management , and my concern is that people will get even less direction than they get right now .

Natalie Parker 37:52

Like , if a leader has 10 direct reports , that's a lot , right , it's manageable , but it's a lot . But then if it goes from 10 to 20 , that's actually not sustainable to have good culture , good feedback , good direction setting , because a lot of leaders , especially in some of the work that we do , they don't know what you're doing . And so I've adopted I adopted a long time ago a cadence of like I'm going to tell you before you ask , so you don't need to act like you don't know . So do you find that ? Like , fairly like , a decent amount of leaders are like yeah , I'm not sure what my team's doing .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 38:29

Yeah , if leaders are not having regular touch points , I find that to be , and you know , sometimes you don't know if that's on the manager or if the employee is not having those conversations either .

Natalie Parker 38:41

To your point from before , why doesn't the organization expect the manager to know what the employee is doing ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 38:47

Right , yeah , and so a lot of the advice usually that I'm giving is OK . Well , are you having one on ones ? And if not , I would suggest that you start . You know , depending on the nature of the role , maybe every week is too much , you know , maybe you do biweekly , maybe you do monthly , maybe you should have some team meetings . If you're not having team meetings because you want to make sure that you have face time so that your employees don't feel like they're floundering , but also that so you can go to your boss and say here's what my team is working on and , you know , demonstrate that the work is valuable .

Natalie Parker 39:21

Yeah , and in the days of you know , SharePoint , Google drive , all these other things have a shared document that your leader can go to , with a week by week synopsis , where you're on one document like week one , week two , for every week of 52 weeks so they can go back and look and say , oh , this is what they did this week . So give me a , give me a , give me , let's lift . Let's lift the curtain a little bit . Talk to me about a scenario that's happened where you were like , okay , the boss is really not in the right and you're having to help navigate to make sure that the employees are damaged in the process .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 39:57

Yeah , so I had a situation where a team member was not able to come into the office because their car was in the shop and it was going to be in the shop for about two weeks . Now our expectation , you know . You got to come into the office .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 40:12

We work in a hybrid environment , as many companies do , and I had gotten a request from the employee to get a work from home temporary exception . You know , I can I work from home for two weeks while my car is in the shop , and so I asked the employee to speak with their manager , and then the manager got involved and I got on the phone with this manager and I immediately realized that we were dealing with a really difficult situation because the manager didn't want to make any exceptions and wanted the employee to be butt in seat at the office no matter what . And I said , whoa , you know how do you deal with this when this manager is being so adamant and such a frustrated tone of voice that they weren't willing to make any exceptions . And you know I just had to re-explain . You know , yes , this employee is typically working in an in-office role and we're dealing with kind of a Exigent circumstances yes yes , and the employee lived pretty far away .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 41:34

She was commuting pretty far to come into the office , and so we ended up being able to accommodate . But it had to involve HR and I don't think necessarily that that conversation should have had to involve me . I would hope that employee feels comfortable enough with the manager , trust their team member enough to be able to make exceptions in certain scenarios , team member enough to be able to make exceptions in certain scenarios , and this just wasn't one of those types of scenarios and you know , when I got on the phone with that manager I could tell right away that this wasn't , you know , a person who was willing really to look at things from any other way besides what the rules were .

Natalie Parker 42:24

Which is interesting , and a lot of times what the rules were , which is interesting . And a lot of times managers will abdicate their own autonomy , their own latitude of decision-making . For line seven says this , and this is how I interpret it so now , and you've got to know , when you're working with a leader who starts with no , so you can determine how best to navigate that too . When you're working with a leader who starts with no , so you can determine how best to navigate that too . So I think this is a good time for us to talk about story . It's letter time , all right , it's story time . So again , we asked for letters . You sent them .

Natalie Parker 43:03

This one is from Priya , who's a project manager in New York . She says uh , I've been in my company for five years and I haven't moved up once . I know I'm ready . My team knows I'm ready , but my boss keeps making excuses . He says you're too valuable where you are , and last week I found out he's blocked me from several internal transfer requests I've made . I don't want to leave , but I feel stuck . How do I get past my boss , who sees me as an asset but not as a leader ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 43:35

That's tough , that's really tough , and I can only imagine that Priya feels the same way , maybe that I felt in some of my past roles , where I knew I had the skills but I wasn't given the opportunity . And so one thing that maybe I would suggest to Priya is talking with her manager about what her goals are , if she hasn't already . You know , these are my goals , this is my desired career path . This is where I see myself in one year , in five years . How do you see me getting there ? How can ? What are some things that I can do to get there ? You know , I've applied for several roles , or I would like to see myself in this type of role , and how would you suggest that I build certain skills or what do I need to focus on so I can get there ? Because it maybe sounds like the leader wants to hold on a little bit , maybe doesn't want to make any changes , maybe doesn't want to find somebody else and teach somebody else , but you know you got to let the bird fly the nest sometimes .

Natalie Parker 44:50

Yeah , I agree with you and I'd say that , from a talent management perspective , we call these people blockers , where they know the value of the talent they have to the point where they're willing to keep them as a captivated audience , not allow them to grow . So what I'd say to you is this a couple of things . One is who are your allies in the organization that you know ? Have an understanding of your skillset , your capability , your worth and your value and begin to ask for coaching on how to maneuver in the organization . The other thing is it's important for your manager not to be the only person that knows your name in the organization when there comes an opportunity for growth . So , does your HR person know ? Do the people in the next department that you want to go to know who knows and what are the opportunities ? Third thing do you have proof that your manager's blocking you , and can you share that either with HR in a way that's not going to kind of ? You know , currently set your whole world on fire and hey , you know , and if you're ready to leave , you might as well just ask like , look , I'm noticing a pattern . I don't know if it's true or not , but I'm noticing a pattern that I've asked for multiple promotions because I know I'm ready for growth and it seems like you're blocking me . Is that your intention ? And then see what happens .

Natalie Parker 46:15

You will probably get the biggest Porky Pig impersonation . You know it's like right , like you're going to get the stuttering , you're going to get the red face , whatever it is . You're probably going to Porky Pig's a little diggit now that I think about that . But , like , what you'll probably get is him or her taken aback by the fact that you were that direct . And notice , I didn't say you're blocking me . What I said is I've noticed a pattern , I've noticed that I've been interested in these things and I've noticed that it seems as if you're not supporting me . Is that true and is that your intention ? And all they can do is say yes or no ? Because , to Sarah's point , if you have a growth pattern , if you have an interest and they're blocking it , that just makes them selfish . And if all of that happens and you now know that they're selfish , you can leave . And it's unfortunate , and all roads don't lead to quitting . But having that conflict , that positive conflict on your own behalf , is really helpful for your career .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 47:15

Yep , and it's unfortunate sometimes that you do have to make the decision to leave or pivot or go somewhere else if you're not getting the growth and development that you need and that you want for yourself . But it's important to advocate for yourself so that you can get to where you want to be .

Natalie Parker 47:34

Yeah . So I mean , it's a difference from , you know , people being territorial with work and people being territorial with you . I like it . We've got another story . So this is from oh , this is good . This is from a customer service rep in Nashville , tasha .

Natalie Parker 47:52

I feel like my boss is trying to ghost me out of my own job , like if he just makes things miserable enough , I might quit on my own or he won't have to deal with the whole messy process of laying me off . A few months ago , things were fine . I had a solid workload , I'd managed with some great client accounts and I felt like I was actually contributing . But then , little by little , everything started to shift my best accounts reassigned , my workload doubled , but with the worst clients , ones that are impossible to please and basically guaranteed to take my performance metrics Suddenly I'm left , getting left out of meetings that I used to be in , and every time I make a request whether it's for time off to support an issue or even just check-ins , crickets .

Natalie Parker 48:40

I finally decided just to ask him outright hey , is there something going on ? I've noticed a lot of changes ? And his response says oh no , it's just a part of restructuring . Uh right , meanwhile other people on my team . New hires are getting more support , better accounts opportunities and I never knew existed . It's like I've been silently demoted but no one will actually say on it . I'd honestly rather be laid off than the slow starve out of my job like this . At least with a layoff you get severance and can move on with some dignity . But if I quit I get nothing and if I stay I risk performance tanking because they're clearly setting me up to fail . So what do I do ? How do I confront this without making things even worse ? And is there a way to get some actual answers without getting brushed off again ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 49:25

without getting brushed off again . That's tough . It's always so hard when you see something , see writing

The Mirror vs. Sponge in HR

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 49:34

on the wall , and you're not getting an answer that you think aligns with what you see . It's this weird dissonance right Of well , I can see what's happening , so why isn't anybody saying that something's happening ? And you feel a little like you're spinning and a lot of times managers can't or won't be direct . Sometimes it is a matter of can't based on you know if it is a true . You know restructure with legal involved and whatnot , but there is something to say about transparency and when I hear restructure I think , okay , well , how does that impact me Of ?

Natalie Parker 50:18

course .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 50:19

So if I'm Tasha , okay . So I hear you manager saying that there's restructuring . So with this restructure , what does my role look like in that restructure ? You know , asking more direct questions . You know , I think it's natural to start off with , well , is something going on , and maybe seeing if that information will come . But if it doesn't , then you have to get more direct and say , okay , well , if we're restructuring , what does my role look like ? What will my new job responsibilities be ? Am I still going to manage XYZ accounts or is my role going to look different ? And if it is , what do you see my new role as ? Because it's harder to avoid those direct , pointed questions and hopefully get some sort of insight into okay , maybe my role is really being eliminated or maybe there's something new and exciting for me .

Natalie Parker 51:20

I like this concept of being direct . I'd also earmark the fact that sometimes leaders don't recognize when they do death by a thousand cuts . So all of these things have happened to you and maybe it's time for you to write them down on paper on this date . This happened on this date . This happened on this date . This happened on this date . This happened .

Natalie Parker 51:44

Looking at the totality of it , can you explain to me my performance was here and I was a rock star , and now this is happening . Are you giving me a stretch assignment ? Is there a need for this shift ? Because I'm the most tenured person Cause maybe the story you're telling yourself around like being silently fired , maybe the antithesis of that , where it's like no , these people are way too junior to do these hard accounts and we trust you that could actually be another story . The case of point is , the only facts you have are the things that happened to you . You don't know the why , so asking the question will at least get you more information .

Natalie Parker 52:21

If you look at the totality of all of the actions , in concert with your leader , to say , okay , the first thing , tell me why this was how first happened . Now tell me why this one , and tell me why this one and where are we going with this Cause ? This shift in workload seems a lot different than what I was enjoying six months ago . And how long do you think this is going to last ? And let me tell you what I really want to do .

Natalie Parker 52:42

And does this make sense ? And you can tell from the energy of your leader whether or not they're afraid of the conversation . It's a whole vibe , and being able to tell that energy is important because you'll then have more information . You may not have clarity , you may not have all the answers , but you do have another data point to be able to be watchful for it . And I think , a lot of times having us having sat on the side of having to do reductions of force , having to do layoffs , having to do restructures there's not a lot he or she can say , but you can tell by the energy if they have a command of what's happening or if they are the author of what's happening to you or if they are just a minion , if they are the author of what's happening ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 53:29

to you , or if they are just a minion , Right , Yep , Yep . It's really tough in either of those scenarios , whether it's like oh , I can tell that you're the one directing this or I can tell that you're just kind of being told what to tell me . It doesn't feel great . But I think the point of looking at what you're telling yourself versus the facts of what's happening and digging into that will really help uncover what's really going on here , or at least closer to getting an answer to that question .

Natalie Parker 54:01

For sure , and you're always fighting for your agency and autonomy so that you can make a good decision , mm-hmm . So , sarah , we've had a really great conversation . We've talked about career pivots . We've talked about bad bosses that we've had . We've talked about how , sitting on the side of the leadership fence and helping leaders navigate and employees navigate their tough situations . What's one thing you would tell an employee about navigating a difficult leader Like ? What's one thing you wish they did that they are not doing right now in mass ?

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 54:38

I think it's important to really pay attention to , kind of to your point , paying attention to how your manager responds when you ask questions , when you ask the why , when you're really trying to dig in , because I think it's really important for managers to be able to own their conversations , their decisions and their management style , their relationship with their team members .

Sarah Vaughn Benjamin 55:06

And so when a manager is trying to give an explanation for something and they pivot the explanation or they blame somebody else or say the decision was out of their control , I'd maybe , you know , have that little alert go up in your head . You know , maybe it's true that the decision was out of their control and maybe there is something that the manager can do in their communication style with you to help explain things a little bit more , because it's a manager's job to manage their team and to understand how their team works and how the interpersonal relationships with themselves , with the team members , and so I think it's really important to understand and pay attention to that body language and the responses that you're getting so that you can understand . Okay , is my manager really paying attention to my concerns or are they just trying to brush them off ?

Natalie Parker 56:11

I like it . I like it . I used to tell people when I was in an HR role , whether it was an HR director or business partner or whatever I would say listen , when somebody tells you HR said , ask them who ? Because I have an A right , I'm Natalie . Did Natalie say or did someone else ? Because the leader does have to take accountability for their decisions ? All right , that's all for today , folks , and I want to thank again my guest , sarah Vaughn-Benjamin , for coming onto the show . It was great to have you . Make sure you tune in , check out our Facebook page , check out the website yourbosssockscom , and remember don't let your boss suck the life out of you . Today's episode is brought to you by Natalie Parker Enterprises , where we shape the future and unlock potential by helping organizations and people work together to do good work . Find out more at thenatalieparkercom . Or , if you'd like to be a sponsor , email us at info at thenatalieparkercom . Or if you'd like to be a sponsor , email us at info at thenatalieparkercom .