So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
Bad bosses happen to good people. Join entrepreneur, corporate trailblazer-turned-business strategist, and podcast host Natalie Parker as she unpacks real-life stories of tough leaders and toxic work environments. With Natalie’s expertise in navigating corporate chaos and building strategies for success, this podcast offers practical advice and actionable insights to help you turn workplace challenges into opportunities for growth. Whether you’re dealing with micromanagers, toxic cultures, or just plain bad vibes, this is your go-to guide for taking control, thriving, and proving that when your boss sucks, your success doesn’t have to.
So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
S2 E4 Test-Drive Your Manager: Avoiding Toxic Leadership featuring Julia Cooper
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Finding yourself stuck with a terrible boss can feel like a nightmare, but what if you could spot the warning signs before accepting the job? In this illuminating conversation with talent matchmaker Julia Cooper, we uncover the secrets to test-driving potential managers during the interview process.
Julia reveals that authenticity has become the true currency of successful workplace relationships. As a recruiter who has placed thousands of candidates throughout her career, she shares insider knowledge on how to identify red flags in leadership styles. From observing how engaged managers are during interviews to paying attention to whether they apologize for tardiness, these subtle cues often predict future behavior.
The discussion tackles today's most pressing workplace challenges, including the post-pandemic tension between remote flexibility and office requirements. One listener's frustration with inconsistent policies prompts practical advice: if remote work matters to you, verify whether your potential manager works remotely—this often determines the team's long-term arrangement. We also address the delicate dance of setting boundaries in a world where technology enables 24/7 connectivity.
Most valuably, Julia provides five essential questions every candidate should ask potential managers: How would you describe your leadership style? How do you keep your team motivated during challenges? How do you set goals and measure success? How do you onboard new team members? What's the most important leadership lesson you've learned?
Remember that in today's job market, organizations should be selling themselves to you just as much as you're selling your skills. Don't be afraid to interview the company while they're interviewing you—your future happiness depends on it.
Don't let your boss suck the life out of you.
Share your bad boss story on our website.
Learn more or Book Natalie.
Authentic Recruiting
Speaker 1We have to put ourselves in a candidate's shoe and say would we want to wait two weeks after an interview to see how it goes ? No , you have someone sitting on the edge of their chair wondering like did I do good , Did I do bad ? Are they going to move forward ? No matter what level of leadership you are , your team is important to you . You make and take the time for your team and because those team members are getting the job done , they're doing what the company needs to thrive . So why wouldn't you want to pour into that ?
Speaker 2Welcome to another episode of so your Boss Sucks . Now what ? I'm your host , natalie Renee Parker , and I'm excited today . Have you ever met someone who is literally born to do their job ? Like you know that when you met them , that they were literally doing the thing that they were meant to do . That really pretty much sums up my next guest . You see , she recruited me into my last corporate job , and what makes it so interesting is , I feel like recruiters are the salespeople of an organization , and the vibe that I get from her her ability to dissect and understand and position people in roles that fit the company and the person is just bar none , and so we call her the talent matchmaker . I'm excited to introduce to you my good friend , julia Cooper .
Speaker 1Hi , natalie , thank you for having me . What a full circle moment .
Speaker 2Yes , it is . It is . I'm excited . Her bio will be on the webpage . We'll also make sure you get her LinkedIn information as well . So thanks for coming . Of course , I'm excited . I really do mind what I said . Like you are absolutely borrow none one of the best recruiters I've ever engaged . Like you just have the talent for it . What is what do you think makes a talented recruiter ?
Speaker 1Great question . In my experience , I feel like the most successful recruiters are going to be those who really have a passion for what they do , right . So I think that's in actually a lot of your roles when you're working . If it's something that naturally comes to you , that's great , because essentially , a recruiter is salesperson , selling you on an opportunity and matching you to an opportunity that could be life-changing . So I look at it a little bit as a bigger picture , right , and I think the passionate recruiters look at it as a bigger picture . Not only are we helping an organization identify top talent , but vice versa , we're helping a candidate identify that next opportunity that could open many doors .
Speaker 2Yeah , the thing that came to me as we were speaking to was not just the sales portion of the role because you do sell , right , you're selling the company but you were also really authentic , right I found , not only with me when you're recruiting me , but when you're recruiting my team , right , and hiring for me . You were authentic and telling people like , yeah , this is probably not the role for you if you're expecting X and you're expecting Y , and when I'm coaching leaders , when I'm coaching individuals , when I'm coaching companies , one of the things I say is that , especially now , I feel like authenticity is going to be the currency of this age . Right Before it was information , before it was all these other things . But I feel like authenticity is the thing , the differentiator , that's going to help people have really good work experiences .
Speaker 1Yes , absolutely . And so just to kind of piggyback off of that , one thing that I'm big on doing when I'm recruiting is A I have to recruit for an organization I believe in . If I don't trust the organization , if I don't see the vision , if I don't know the vision , I can't sell the company right . Because then essentially , I'm making up the information . I don't feel comfortable making up things . So it's big for me to really pull back the different layers of the organization understanding what the mission is , the values .
Speaker 1Where are we looking to be in five years ? That makes it a lot easier to sell an opportunity as well as match a person to an opportunity , right ? So when I'm asking a candidate , where do they see themselves in five years ? Does it align with the organization ? If it does , that's a match right . And then another piece to it , the latter part , is understanding my hiring managers . What type of leaders are they ? So then , when I'm talking to a candidate , I'm seeing , is that a good match , right ? Or I'm also , too , explaining to them what type of leadership they would be walking into . So it's not a shocker , and that typically ends up coming into place itself . Everything falls into place . You see how things align or you just end up identifying that it's not a good match .
Speaker 2Listen . I think that is really , really important and I find it interesting one the need to have a match because you want to have people be in roles that they like Absolutely Right , but also knowing when it's not a match . Right to have people be in roles that they like Absolutely Right , but also knowing when it's not a match , right To say , like this is not the role for you . So Julie and I are going to talk about a gambit of things . We're going to talk about one . We're going to talk about the letters . So we've got letters here and I'm excited about the letters we're going to talk about later on . So stay tuned , because you sent letters and we're going to read them and Julia and I are going to wax poetic on what we think you should do .
Speaker 2We're also going to talk about her perspective as a recruiter when it comes to just how do litmus test , or what I call test drive your manager right . So how do you really get a feel for the organization and the individual you're going to be working with ? Because , at the end of the day , everybody is selling their best selves in an interview . But what are some of the tips and tricks you can give us around how to get the best out of that interview moment , especially if you're kind of in a sucky boss situation right now and you don't want to make the same mistake twice . But , julia , I first want to start by talking about your own experience as an employee of a company , right , because the title of the podcast is so your Boss , that's Now what . So talk to me about , when you think in the back of your mind , your worst boss moment . What was your ? And I think what I loved . What you said to me was like , hey , I haven't had a lot of terrible bosses , but I have had one experience , so talk to me about
Julia's Worst Boss Experience
Speaker 2that .
Speaker 1Absolutely . So yes , as you said , I haven't had a good amount , but I've had one , and so I think back to it and I laugh , but in the moment of course it was not funny in the moment of course it was not funny . So at one of my previous organizations I was a part of a TA team that was pretty well established . It didn't start with all of us , it actually grew over time . So we started off being two of us , grew to three , four , five , six over a quick period of time and so of course , when you rapidly grow , there's kind of this relationship you form with one another where it's just like , hey , we're in the trenches together , yeah , and in the recruiting world we were doubling the company size each year . So it was a lot of work , a lot of blood , sweat and tears we put in to growing the organization and so we had got to a point where it was time to bring on a leader for our team .
Speaker 1Prior to this new leader coming on board , we were reporting directly into a senior executive . So there was a little bit of a gap there . We had that leadership , but not really as direct as we wanted it . That leader , that particular leader , had maybe four or five departments within HR under her , so there's only so much that she could give to each team . So we were actually really excited about this leader . We're like , oh , we have a whole list for this person , right ? We can't wait to give them this idea , even in this area . Maybe he'll be able to go in and speak on behalf of us and really support us in these areas . So we were definitely excited . Well , have you ever had a boss or a new leader that you're excited about and then they come in like a bull in a china shop ? It's just like you were not ready . So his first day started and again we were very excited . We didn't know much about him . So on the first day we're learning more and more . That first week learning more . What we quickly started to identify was his discomfort .
Speaker 2He wanted like .
Speaker 1Um , he wanted like discomfort , discomfort , how discomfort . And he realized , um how close we were as a team and he was coming in as a new leader . I'm not sure if this was the first experience for him coming in to an established team , um , but it was almost like he didn't um take the steps to getting to know us as a team and see how we work before he implemented things that he wanted . He kind of came in ready to implement the things that he wanted and also he skipped the step of getting to know us individually which is , you know , interesting ?
Speaker 1Yeah , so I just remember meetings happening . And so again , our prior leader was big on asking us questions . She welcomed us asking questions . She also welcomed us to be involved in different things and areas of the business . That was something he was not used to and that was very clear . So when we would have our meetings and we would ask questions , he didn't take it as we were being inquisitive and wanting to understand . He took it as we were not following his lead or we were not accepting of his decisions . And that was the first straw that broke the camel's back , in the sense of he . From there it went downhill .
Speaker 2OK .
Speaker 1So I remember one meeting we had as a team and someone had asked him a question again . More so , being inquisitive , he took it as pushback and he said let me tell you all something I am leading this train in a certain direction and if you all don't like the direction in which I'm leading this train , you can jump off . Okay , that's when I just kind of was , like , all right , well , there's nothing else I can say . Nothing else I can say to him and feel comfortable , right when we wouldn't be going back and forth , it would be more of so I probably would be targeted .
Speaker 2So there was no give and take . He wasn't listening to any feedback . Was he helping with any of the work either ? No , no , so another piece , so he's just kind of like a drill sergeant just come in .
Speaker 1Absolutely , and this is how we could tell he was very uncomfortable , because within a couple of weeks we were hiring for a recruiter and he had brought in two team members from his previous organization .
Speaker 2So he's feeling fragile and he's outnumbered , so he brings in people that he's comfortable with , absolutely Basically saying I don't know who y'all are , but I know them .
Speaker 1Yes , yep , and essentially because he hadn't formed a relationship with us , didn't involve us in the recruitment process of our new team members , mind you , coming into a team that's already established .
Speaker 1So it's kind of like , how do you recruit for our team when you don't even know our team ? It's kind of how it felt . But he's bringing on team members that we don't know anything about , and so that was a little bit of a strange experience because in learning that we found out one of them was essentially overqualified , right . So of course , as a recruiter , we're like red flag . You know we're bringing someone in with managerial experience . Why would they want to just be a talent acquisition recruiter , leadership opportunities and he was on a path to leadership which is bypassing other team members on the team who expressed , you know , an interest in leadership and who had work to get there . So that also created some other turmoil . It was just a lot of disconnect . It felt as though , you know , he was bringing in people to then replace us it felt as though you know he was bringing in people to then replace us .
Speaker 2So I heard fragility . So fragility being like someone being insecure and fragile about a situation . Right , so you've got that . You know his insecurity . It sounds like a bit of cronyism , right , you've got also being alienated because he's really not talking to you , and then him being an authoritarian . So what did you and the team decide to do ? How did you even handle that ?
Speaker 1So I'm not sure if this would be the best advice in all scenarios . However , we were very our team was very close to our previous leader who was a senior executive . Because we had again grown the organization , we had to see how things work out . We did do like a new leader integration kind of program or walkthrough with him . Even in that it was still very much so focused on that leader . Did I facilitate that ?
Speaker 2You did , you did , I was like that sounds vaguely familiar .
Speaker 1Yep , you did , and the focus was on that leader and we were still like there is no desire to get to know us as a team , but we still fought through it . We were just like I mean , we're going to .
Speaker 2I mean it's hard because you're virtual right this is a smack dab in the middle of COVID , absolutely Right and you have pre-established relationships . So the thing I tell you all is , if you're in this situation , especially if you don't know the person , do what you can to try to have conversations that aren't work related at some point to try
Coaching Hiring Managers
Speaker 2to lessen their defenses Would you agree with that , absolutely yes .
Speaker 2Yeah , he still is a bit of a pill and I would recommend trying to at least lessen the defenses of the other individual . But I you know sometimes it does require you skipping leader you have going above their head to get the kind of attention you need to alleviate the pain that you have .
Speaker 1Absolutely , and so you know , I think , in my view of the situation , we had tried our hardest to give him as many chances or as much grace as possible . Right , because he came from another organization that was just set up , completely different , and so there's a change there for him as well . But in that over time you could tell he wasn't coming in to try to understand this organization , how we function and how he can best lead in it . He came in wanting to change it , and if we weren't in alignment with the changes he wanted , he was , we could hop off , we could jump off you know it's funny because there's changes he wanted , he was , we could hop off , we could jump off .
Speaker 2You know it's funny because it's twofold that I've seen where a leader like that will be told by the executives that hire him that they need to change .
Speaker 2So you never know if they've been given an agenda that they're trying to plow to . But I think the biggest gap here and if you're a leader , a new leader , I'd really recommend this right , there's a book called the First 90 Days that talks about before you change anything , figure out what's there . And I know , based on what's happening popularly , that may not be the course of action that everybody wants to do , but you got to figure out what you're breaking before you break it , because you don't know how valuable it is before you break it . Figure out what you're breaking before you break it , because you don't know how valuable it is before you break it . And so understanding what's happening in the organization , the kind of talent you have , the capability they have , the experience and the history that they have in the organization , can really benefit you , and I found a lot of folks that come in often don't have enough curiosity and learning orientation to even ask those questions .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , and that's funny you said that because I never thought of it from that point of view right , the direction that that leader could have been given , which could have played into how they were navigating . But I think it's important , like you said , to come in and look at current state , right , like , is it broken ? Before I go in and fix it . Maybe there's some areas that are great , some areas that do need fixing , and the previous leader didn't understand that , right , they weren't in the weeds of things to be able to understand what is truly going on , and they didn't necessarily have that functional skill set either . Exactly , yes , very true , and so it was to the point where , at the end of the day , I'm going to do my job . I just , you know , I am OCD when it comes to my job , and we got bills to pay and we got bills to pay .
Speaker 2Do your job .
Speaker 1Yes , so I'm going to do my job . That did not affect my performance , but what it affects was my happiness . Coming to work , I was no longer excited to recruit for this company . I was no longer excited about my job , and it had nothing to do with my career growth . It had nothing to do with the relationships I had already formed . It had all to do with me being under a leader I was not aligned with , nor did I trust . At this point , I'm like is he trying to get rid of me If I say something wrong that I don't intentionally mean to say wrong ? Am I going to be gone ? Am I going to need to jump off the train or will he throw me ?
Speaker 2And I think that . So what you've just described is the continuum of engagement and disengagement , because what happens is you're gung-ho , you love your job , I'm here , I'm doing it , I'm doing it , and then it's like , ooh , that's I don't like that , but you're still trying , and it's like ooh , and you keep ratcheting back and what happens is many of us will start to conserve our energy for the foolishness , right ? So it's like , okay , I'm going to do what I need to do , but I also have to put in my reserve tank some space and some shielding from the foolishness , and that actually takes away from productivity , and companies really , I find , don't do well with helping employees manage the energy that they have to take when dealing with bad leadership , and that , literally , is for me , the slippery slope of disengagement . I think that's why 87% of people worldwide are on some continuum of disengagement , like that's the stat .
Speaker 2You guys , 70 , 87% of people on the planet are in some way disengaged with their jobs , and so when you think about that , your story isn't atypical from a lot of us , where we're like you know what ? I'm not feeling , this . I'm going to do what I need to do so I can get this check . What I ain't finna do is deal with this foolishness , and so thank you for sharing that . I think that's something we need to continue to figure out is how we show up our authentic selves but also protect ourselves while we're trying to figure it out Absolutely . So talk to me as a recruiter , because you've recruited thousands of people in your nearly a decade career . What are some of the crazy things you've seen on the management side when it comes to recruiting .
Speaker 1When it comes to recruiting , what I've experience is having to really coach my hiring managers and , mind you , I've worked with all levels of leadership when it comes to hiring , whether that's a manager to a chief executive right or a C-suite . And so , to be honest with you you would be surprised I feel like I manage up to my executives and C-suite more than I do to my you know frontline managers . I'm not at all surprised . Yeah , I don't know if it's more so they have more hiring . You know opportunities and so they're used to the space , they know how it goes , they're ready to go .
Speaker 1I mean , it's just hard to get my you know executives to make the time to recruit , and it's hard because it's like you need the position you have to make the time to recruit for it . Plus , don't you want your candidates to feel like you're engaged as a leader , that there is the first sign to how they're going to lead you , how involved they're going to be ? Are they too busy to take the time to meet with you , to learn you , to understand where you want your career to go ? If they're not giving that time in the interview process , will they give it throughout your career on their team ? That's a good question to ask yourself .
Speaker 2That's a whole nugget I would have never I think about . I have folks that I know that are currently in executive searches right now and they're talking about just how long the companies have taken to get back to them and lead time and like an executive search could anywhere go from , you know , three months to six months in terms of the process and the multiple hiring . And I never thought about that , Julie , but that is a solid point , Like if they are taking too long , then they're probably not excited and on fire . That's really really a good point .
Speaker 1Yes , or they are just not making the time to make that a priority . I feel no matter what level of leadership you are , your team is important to you . You make and take the time for your team and because those team members are getting the job done , they're doing what the company needs to thrive , so why wouldn't you want to pour into that ? So it's really coaching them to have that mindset . We're all busy , but we can make time at the beginning or end of our day to be able to focus on our talent .
Speaker 2Yeah , because you have a speed in recruiting that I really enjoy . Like you're just like , look , we're going to . You know , I think your average time to fill is like I don't know , eight days or something . Crazy Right . But I also want to talk about . I heard someone use recruiting as an analogy to dating . Yes , like
Ghosting and Candidate Engagement
Speaker 2if they're not feeling you , it's going to come out in the process . That's that's . I'm still . I'm fascinated on that . Like , if they're , if they're not taking pace , then you probably should take that as a sign . All right . So what are some other things that you've seen in the process on the company side that people need to look out for ?
Speaker 1So , of course , time , right , you want . Just like a company wants their time valued , they should be valuing your time as well , right ? So , as a recruiter , I try to be as engaged and upfront in telling you what the process will look like . We do have some leaders out for the holidays , so please be aware that there may be a little bit of a pause in the process , but on a weekly basis I will check in with you . So , as a recruiter , I feel like it's our jobs to keep the candidates engaged . Right , we're that middle person , we're that liaison between the candidate and the organization . But on the back end , please know that I am on top of my leadership team Like , I need you to answer this email . If you don't answer an email , I'm going to schedule us a weekly call . You know , and it's essentially I'm being passive , but I have to get in front of them just for the candidate experience . Right , you know , we have to put ourselves in a candidate's shoe and say or in their shoes and say would we want to wait two weeks after an interview to see how it goes ? No , you have someone sitting on the edge of their chair wondering like did I do good , did I do bad , are they going to move forward ? So we want to be timely in our feedback , just like we would want the same if we were in their seat . So it's a lot of coaching on the time piece of it .
Speaker 1Also , too , the biggest thing is decision-making . It's hard working with a leader who doesn't truly know what they want . Now , I understand that at the beginning of the process , as we're navigating it , they are getting their first bunch of talent and they're kind of reviewing them and determining what they like , what they don't like , experience-wise , skill set technology . But when you get towards the middle , to the end , if the leader hasn't identified what's going to work best on their team , that's a little bit concerning to me , because it happens a lot . Yeah , and that's why a recruiting process takes so long . That's why we have six interviews , because they can't make a decision and I have to tell them over three interviews if it's not a VP level or higher is too many .
Speaker 2So that's interesting . I've seen , I've seen these trends coming out where candidates will say like , how many interviews do I have to take ? And if it's more than like three , they're like no , I'm good , yeah , nope .
Speaker 1And I get it Now . I'll explain if there's more interviews . Because sometimes there's a role that's heavily involved in the business right and so leaders want the buy-in of their business stakeholders . So they may have you meet with some of the different areas of the business . But as a recruiter , how do we mitigate it being so many ? Can we have it as a panel interview ? Now , we don't want too many people in a panel because then it's kind of like I got five people and just me , so you want it two , three .
Speaker 2A panel and not a firing squad .
Speaker 1Yes , that can be a little off-putting , right , and that can just put someone in a position where they don't feel as comfortable . So you don't want too many people . But how do we keep it to three , four interviews , right ? Because this is time A lot of these candidates are working , so they're taking time from their current job to interview for this job . So we can't expect them to do six , seven interviews and you're still on the fence .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's frustrating and it's a waste of time . So be thoughtful about how many interviews you have to do , especially and feel out the manager . So let's talk about this . So I want to talk about how people can test drive their manager , but before we do so , let's talk about this . So I want to talk about how people can test drive their manager , but before we do , let's talk about this concept of ghosting , because I've seen , you know , I've had companies ghost me . Right , I have . I've haven't had many because I never had I didn't have to do a lot of interviewing , though for my career but I've had companies ghost me where they just like go silent . But there's also a thing candidates will ghost recruiters , yes , and what's now on the rise is people ghosting their first day of work .
Speaker 1Yeah , that as a recruiter . Oh my gosh , you guys send us into a heart attack .
Speaker 1When you don't show up on your first day because our hiring managers are looking at us like what happened ? Where's our candidate ? Yeah , so that is . I haven't had that happen to me , have I had that ? No , I haven't had that happen to me . Now I've had someone on board and then leave within the first week , and that only happened once as far as because they thought as though they were going to change the role from being in office to remote , even though that expectation was set clear . Yeah , but as far as ghosting on the first day , that has happened more frequently than it has in the past .
Speaker 1But as recruiters , what we have to do frequently than it has in the past , but as recruiters , what we have to do and it can be time consuming is stay engaged with our talent , even after accepting the offer letter , after accepting the offer letter . And so in my current process we have a recruiting coordinator . She's typically the one that is connecting with the candidate pre-employment checks . Here's your first day onboarding task . Welcome to your first day email . And so she is actively engaged . I have a report bill with her that if someone does not respond to your emails , let me know . If it is one of my positions that is a hard to fill or maybe executive level position . I'm also gonna be very engaged throughout that process .
Speaker 1I can't be as engaged with everyone like that . Just because I try to be very engaged with my candidates through the interview process , that we have a recruiting coordinator that jumps in and helps us there , right . But if there's someone that you have any bit of potential hesitation towards you should definitely , as the recruiter be staying like , be actively engaged with them throughout their onboarding process . I'll even coach my managers like hey , it's not a bad thing to connect to your candidate . You can reach out to them and say , hey , I'm very excited for you to join . Typically , when a candidate interviews with a strong leader , they will start . They will start . I can nine times out of 10 guarantee you certain managers I work with . They're always going to have their candidates start and be very happy .
Speaker 2Because they give you the warm and fun seeds right , absolutely .
Speaker 2I want to know from you all . I want to know have you ever accepted a job and just didn't show up ? Like I want to know why ? Like what was the situation ? What were the flags for you ? Cause I'm really curious . Like there's a ton of research of people , um , from fortune to Harvard business review , so I think fast company even had an article on folks just ghosting the first day of work and like with the job marketing being what it is and there's more demand on the supply . Like I'm confused , I need to know , like I need to know , what are y'all doing out here ? Were you just not showing up to the first ?
Speaker 1day . Let me know , so we can mitigate .
Speaker 2That is it . I'm wondering . If is there is there , do you have like multiple offers ? When you play in chicken , you're like who comes in first with the highest bid ? Are you using the one offer to have the second offer ? I want to know have you ever ghosted a first day of work ? Let me know . If you're on YouTube , put it on the chat . If you're on Facebook , if you're listening to this online , go ahead and shoot over to our website , yourbosssuckscom , or , uh , to our Facebook page , because I want to hear . I want to hear what people have to say about ghosting their first day of work .
Speaker 1Absolutely .
Speaker 1And I'll say one last thing as a recruiter , if you build strong rapport with your candidates , they actually will feel bad , ghosting right , like they are going to like if I don't show up on my first day , that's going to look bad on my recruiter .
Speaker 1So if you build that rapport and just that comfortability with your candidates , they'll tell you Is it a great conversation to hear as a recruiter , no , but I'm always like you know what . I want you to make the best decision for yourself and your career and I would rather you make this decision before we've invested the time and the money to onboard you than you to come on board and then a week or 90 days later be gone . So I do appreciate the transparency , but the ghosting piece , I think if we as recruiters are establishing that rapport , that open dialogue with our candidates , that will help mitigate them just not showing up . I think they are establishing that rapport , that open dialogue with our candidates . That will help mitigate them just not showing up . I think they are nervous that too . They try to say , hey , I accepted another offer , I'm no longer interested . Their recruiter might try to talk them into it .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's interesting . So let's talk about the flip side . Let's talk about when someone's trying to find a boss that doesn't suck in the recruiting process . What are some of the things that they should be looking for or asking to test drive their manager to see if they're worth their soap ?
Testing Your Future Manager
Speaker 1in interviewing and trying to assess how strong of a leader the hiring manager is that you would be working under is how engaged are they in the interview process ? Right , and you're looking at the moments where they would be genuinely themselves , right ? So , coming into , let's just say , a video interview , you know , are they setting the tone for it to be comfortable ? Are they very rigid and by the book , right ? So that tells you already what type of leader You're either going to be working with an A-type leader that's rigid , going to follow every step , or you're working with someone that says , hey , how are you today ? And you're having just natural , open dialogue . Oh , I see you have , I can hear your dog , I have a dog too . Right ? Just making it a comfortable environment , and then they will shift to the interview process or the questions that they have . So I think that's the number one indicator . Also , them showing up on time or prepared is another thing too .
Speaker 1Now things happen and I go ahead and I prepare my candidates that , hey , sometimes I'm scheduling my hiring managers back to back . Or you know they're coming from a meeting , they're coming into this interview , give them a five to 10 minute grace period . But if they come on to their interview and they apologize for their tardiness . Again they're holding themselves accountable , they're recognizing that they were late and they're saying that to you so they value your time . So there's a couple small kind of soft not skills , but things that you can kind of look out for right .
Speaker 1Another big thing is a hiring manager should be very interested in selling you the opportunity right . So it's not just that they're interviewing you , but they should be prepared to be interviewed right . So they should want to understand what it is that you're looking for in the next opportunity that you take on , what's important to you , and they should be ready to highlight those in their pitch . So I always tell my hiring managers you should have a closing pitch right that touches on these different pieces of what this candidate is looking for . That gets them excited right .
Speaker 1If you're like we grow our team , like in the last year I've promoted four people within my team because not only have we had success as a company , but as a team and as a leader , I strive to grow and develop my team . That can be exciting for someone . Just visibility within the business , like my team is in front of these different departments and we have this type of impact on the business , and I know you mentioned that you want to be in a role where you're impactful . So they're just aligning what the opportunity has that aligns to what the candidate is needing . That is a good leader , right ? Because that's a leader that's thoughtful , that's a leader that is taking the time to understand their team and then being able to present them opportunities that align .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I would also say that it's important for the candidate to look for how the leader's looking for the job to mature . So we expect that this next thing you could potentially do is this , this , this Now , if it's a new role and you've got to grow into that , fine , but at least have the conversation of like , what could this look like in another three years ? So talk to us about what questions ? No , no , no . Talk to us about whether or not a candidate should ask for internal references , the same way a company asks for references from the candidate . I've done this before . Like , okay , you want me to move , you want me to come all the way down there . Like I need to talk to people and meet people that I'm going to be relocating my entire life for .
Speaker 1So good question and I do not think that is a bad ask . I think , as a candidate , just like hiring managers , just like recruiters , read the room , Read the room , Understand who would be the best person to ask that to , right ? Sometimes you can ask that to your hiring manager because they've created that environment where they'll welcome that and not be offended by it or taken aback by it . Right ? Sometimes it's your recruiter . You're asking that right Because , again , I strive to build a rapport with my candidate that they should be comfortable to ask me what they need and then I can go back and make it happen . Now , would I frame it as internal references ? Probably not .
Speaker 1What I would suggest is saying more of I would love the opportunity to meet with some of the people I would be working closely with within the team Right , and then that comes off a little bit more of oh , she wants to see the space , she wants to see the team , which is true , but you also want to see how they feel about their leader . And you can tell by energy , you can tell by excitement . You can tell a lot by interviewing with someone like if this is something they enjoy doing , if this is something they're like I'm doing it because I have to , or you know , it's just , I think it is a good way to approach . It is probably ask me if you could do a panel interview with the team at some point , especially if you know you're a finalist candidate .
Speaker 2Yeah . So it's interesting I have , I have an experience where , you know I they were like , hey , we want you to move , and I'm like , yeah , I've met all of the people at the headquarters , but I haven't met the people where I'm going to live , and so I asked for that , and it was funny because it was actually kind of raw . I got really some really good feedback . At one point , one of the ladies like get out , right , it was . She was I think about it now , she . She was like I think about it now , she's probably right .
Speaker 2I lasted a long time , though , but that was her perspective , and it was really sobering because it was a balance between the picture I was being painted from the recruiter and the leadership team and people who were on the ground , and so I really I love the balance of that . So I would strongly suggest , if you can , if you have the space , if you read the room and you know who to ask , if you have the opportunity , do your homework and see who you can talk to internally to get the feels as to what's going on with both the leadership as well as the environment .
Speaker 1Absolutely . Another good way to do that as well if you're local to an office , asking if you can come visit the office or do one of your interviews in person that allows for you also to get a feel of the culture of that office space , especially if you're going to be working in it . I feel like if you're going to be working in an office space at some point in time you should want to visit that office , because you can go into that office and cut the tension with a knife . Who wants to work in an office space like that ? No , or you can go into an office space that's empty . I've had like with my current organization .
Speaker 1One of our office spaces is not that occupied and some people like that right . Some people like to be in a space that's not loud and a lot of movement they can focus . But some people need people around right , and so that could be hard for them to go in daily or on a hybrid schedule and it's like but it's dead in here and now . They're like I could be at home , right , and then that creates just unhappiness in their role .
Speaker 2Yeah , I appreciate you saying that and with this concept you know I'm an ex , you are a millennial we still have boomers in the workforce . We've got boomers , exes , millennials , zs and alphas in the workforce Five generations right For the first time . Five Culturally there's so much going on right For the first time . Five Culturally there's so much going on right Because we've got this tension of like work from home , don't work from home . Everybody's got these RTOs return to work orders . We're seeing this across and I'm sure you can appreciate as a recruiter , like everyone's like , well , I do want to work from home and some roles are okay , some roles are not . I want to read this next letter because somebody sent us a letter . All right , so it's letter time . This letter is from Derek . He's an IT analyst from Denver , colorado . Thanks , derek for the letter Dear .
Speaker 2So your boss sucks . I'm losing my mind . Our company can't decide what it wants to do with remote work . Our one week we're allowed to work from home . The next week we're forced back into office with little notice . My boss just sent me an email saying we value flexibility but also collaboration , which means absolutely nothing
Work-Life Balance and Boundaries
Speaker 2. It's frustrating because I planned childcare with my wife around remote work and now I'm scrambling every other week . Some of my coworkers live out of state and relocated and we were first told we could be remote . Now they're expected to fly in at their own expense and just sit in the office and take zoom calls all day . I'd be fine with a clear policy , but this flip-flopping is exhausting . How do I get leadership to pick a lane ? Help with last worker . So this is this is a hot topic . I'm gonna let Julia talk first . What would you say ?
Speaker 1That is a hot topic , because there's no consistency there , there's no trust in what is it . What is it that they want ? Right ? I would say in that scenario , if it impacts your personal life , Right , and you've made the changes to try to adapt , but they keep changing . You know , it may be good to put your fillers out there . Put your fillers out there , see what other opportunities are there that are consistent . See what other opportunities are there that are consistent . But that is a a true um kind of lesson in when you are in the recruitment process , understanding how clear they are on hybrid , remote and in office work , Right , Um ? Do they say it with confidence or are they saying like right now , we're three days in office , two days remote , but that could change . That's telling you inconsistency . Is there right ?
Speaker 2Yeah , and I'd also say it largely depends on the manager . I'm also finding so I grew up up until , oh God , up until , I would say , 2000, . When did this go 2020 . 2000 , when was COVID 2020 . So I'd say up until 2015 , 2016, . I was working in office every day , with the exception of like I'd take a Friday and work from home . It was like infrequent in most of the companies I've worked for and I've worked in defense , transportation , forestry , finance , right , but the last roles that I had were fine with being remote for a good , decent amount of time . But it's an interesting tension . Now companies are feeling pressure , one cause they're paying for these buildings and ain't nobody in them , and there's an assumption that people aren't working yes , which I find fascinating .
Speaker 1That's going to , and you're right . But I feel like that also is your leader's ability to make the business understand that your team can still perform from a remote environment , right ? So I've been in positions where same role but I have to be in office . But let's just say , ashley across the hall doesn't have to be and I , for the life of me , cannot understand why I have to be in office and she doesn't , right ? And it was to the point where it's like I'm performing . Now I feel like I'm in office because you're using me for more than just my job description .
Speaker 2Okay .
Speaker 1Right , I'm answering phones , I'm staffing shifts and that's not what I'm supposed to do . I'm supposed to recruit . And I had to come back to them and say every month you ask me about my numbers and if I don't meet my numbers , I have to hear it , I have to explain . But do you not notice that you're taking me away from my focus in recruiting by having me answer these phones and staff opens or fill openings ? And so their solution to it was they were going to give me an office upstairs and I said so what's the difference in just letting me work hybrid ? So in that experience I felt my leadership didn't trust me . And when you are a performer and you meet expectations to the point where they've given you more work to do with the same amount of money , it was like I didn't feel valued . So that's where I walked away , because I didn't feel my leadership valued me .
Speaker 2You know , I think it's interesting because we talked about it when I was pre-interviewing you but this idea of organizations shifting their values and not telling the organization that the value shifted right . So for the organization that says , hey , you know what we can do hybrid work and then it's like , nope , we're in crisis , we're going to change the model . I feel like , especially with current affairs being what they were , companies are doing a worse and worse job of communicating that we're intentionally about to break the psychological contract . What do I mean by that ? You were hired for a thing . We're now shifting the thing you're hired for . We're shifting the way the work is getting done and we're doing it with these intentions .
Speaker 2For this reason and we're sorry because I've never seen anybody apologize , like I said , that's like a non-American thing to do in corporations is apologize , but to break that thing that you intentionally bought into . Because at the end of the day , when you get hired by a company , you are buying into what you were sold the brand , the perks , the total reward structure , all that You're buying into what you were sold the brand , the perks , the total reward structure , all that you were buying into that and when they break it , I feel like somebody should apologize , like you know what Things have shifted and my bad something .
Speaker 1Yeah , like we had started the conversation around . It's like a relationship , right , company . When something changes or something happens , the key to a relationship's , you know , continuing at its pace or sustaining is communication , right Understanding what's going on , why it happened . If a company can communicate the changes , maybe not everyone's going to be receptive of it , but they'll appreciate and respect . Yeah , I can respect you . Yes , because it's a company . Business is business . We know changes are going to be made , not always for the people but for the organization . But it's about communicating that , being forward about it , instead of just having it happen . And then you're going to put the manager as the front person to let the team know , and he has little to no information about it .
Speaker 1Just like , hey , you got to go back into the office . Another big tip in interviewing is , if you want to feel as comfortable as possible , knowing that , hey , I signed up for a remote opportunity and I want to stay remote , make sure your manager is remote . That's a good kind of because nine times out of 10 , if your manager , if your leadership team is remote , the chances of them bringing a team back into an office with no leadership local is very , very slim . Now , I'm not saying it doesn't happen or it can't , or they can't . Give your leadership team an ultimatum and then they decide no , but it's very rare . So it's different . When your leadership team is local to an office and you're remote , then there's a chance , if they do make that change in that shift , that they may say hey , we need people local here .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1So that's a good kind of tip . I go by . And I've heard candidates ask that they asked me before um like is the team remote ? Is my leadership team remote ? Okay ?
Speaker 2Okay , I like it All right . So this letter's from Jordan and , uh , this one talks about culture and boundaries . It fits well into the theme that we were talking about . He says so your boss sucks . I need help ASAP because my boss is straight up out . She has zero chill when it comes to work-life balance and I swear she thinks we're on call 24 seven like ER doctors or something .
Speaker 2Last Saturday I was out with my family vibing like ER doctors or something . Last Saturday I was out with my family vibing , enjoying some actual time off . Then , ding , I got a text from her at 9 PM asking for an update on a client . Mind you , I had already sent her an email about it earlier . I ignored it because , duh , it's Saturday night . Five minutes later she calls and I don't pick up the phone . Then she calls again , still don't answer because , hello , boundaries . So what does she do ? She sends a team-wide email , basically shading me for not being responsive Like I get .
Speaker 2Sales is a grind , but do I really need to be on every second of my life to prove that I care about my job ? I feel like I can't relax without my phone being glued to the hip in case she hits me up . I've tried dropping hints about needing personal time , but she hits me with . It's the nature of sales Bruh . No , that's the nature of a toxic hustle culture . At what point do I get to push back without getting labeled lazy or uncommitted ? How do I get her to realize that my life doesn't revolve around replying to her texts at all hours ? Thanks , chained to my phone and losing my mind . So what do you think ?
Speaker 1I think you get her to realize that by not responding right . So again , that's setting the boundary of . You can be available if you want to , but just be cautious of when you open up that door of communication . Your leader may not know when to stop . So if you want to have your work-life balance , your personal time on the weekend don't be responsive . Time on the weekend don't be responsive .
Speaker 1Some people will not put their emails on their phone because if you're like me , you're going to automatically look at it and then you may respond . That's me , but I'm okay with mixing a little bit of work into my weekend . That's my personal choice , but someone who is not . You really have to set those boundaries and not feel bad about it , because at the end of the day , unless they said you were expected to work on the weekend , you're not expected to work on the weekend . If you can get your job done Monday through Friday , then kudos to you . You can get it done Monday through Friday . But at times you may have to be transparent and not drop hints . You may have to have that one-on-one conversation with your leader and let them know why it's important that you're getting your work done Monday through Friday . On the weekends . You need that time to reset , to come back to the week refreshed .
Speaker 2So I hear what you're saying and I'll say this as someone who came into the workforce in the early 2000s right , it was nothing for us to work 80 hours a week , like 60 , 80 hours , which it's double a work week . So we worked two weeks in one because we were just Xs , were bomb like that , right ?
Speaker 2So we would do that mainly because the boomers were doing it . Like these people didn't shut off ever , like it was nothing for me to get an email or text from one of my VPs like , hey , do you have this information ? At 11 o'clock at night and many of us shout out to all of my people who know what I'm talking about would sleep with our phones right next to our beds because we were expecting messages . It was just the nature of some of the work , and if you work for some of the bigger companies that are like some of these consulting firms , what have you ? The pace is what it is and they go right . I think 20 plus years later the pendulum shifted a little bit . But I first asked Jordan , what culture did you walk into ? What else is everybody doing ? And if they're doing it and you're not , you are the odd man out and you signed up for something that you didn't realize and you've got to reconcile with that . The second thing I would say there's nothing wrong with you setting boundaries , as long as they're clear boundaries . People don't know what you have in your head , so use dropping subtle hints for someone who's probably a boomer , an Xer or just somebody who's really hard up trying to get up their next promotion ? They're not feeling you . You have to be really specific . What get their next promotion ? They're not feeling you . You have to be really specific .
Speaker 2What I would recommend is asking questions to your leader . So let's just say your leader's name is Pam . Hey , pam , I've noticed that every Saturday I'm getting messages from you and it's my value system not to work on Saturday . Can you tell me what's going on and let her explain what her intention is ? Leave it to her , but tell her , like it's my practice , it's my religion , I don't care what you say , but say I'm not going to work on Saturday . So what do you need from me and how do we make sure you get it before you have a fire drill that I'm not ready to answer to , because sometimes people's behavior , their erratic behavior , is their own lack of time management .
Speaker 2And it's okay to say like , listen , an emergency on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine . Right or poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine , and it's nothing wrong with saying that . And I think it's important to ask her intention first and let her know that you wanna understand what her need is so that you can also fit it into the fact that you're not going to work on the weekends or past , you know , five , six o'clock , whatever . That is Absolutely . But understanding the culture you walked into , I think , is paramount , because a lot of times you're like , well , I'm not doing this and you look around like one of these things is doing its own thing , right , like you are the odd man out and you don't want to be , it's not helpful and maybe that's just not the culture for you .
Speaker 1Yes , and that's where it's important to understand the organization that you're joining and understanding the team you're joining .
Speaker 1So when you're interviewing ,
Five Questions to Ask During Interviews
Speaker 1asking those questions , right , how do you encompass work-life balance or support work-life balance within your team ? You're asking the hiring manager your potential future leader , that in the interview process to get that understanding , especially if work-life balance is important to you . So , really , what I advise my candidates to do is jot down what's important to you , like what are deal breakers for you , what causes you to be unhappy at a job , and make sure you touch on that during the interview . Right , you have to understand , like some things are going to be good to ask the recruiter , some things are going to be good to ask a hiring manager and some things may be good to ask , like a panel interview , which may be business partners you work with or other team members . But you want to make sure you understand what type of environment you're walking into Because , like you said , the rest of the team is working 50 , 60 hours . Yes , you're going to look like the oddball out setting boundaries , saying you don't work on Saturday .
Speaker 2You don't kind of look like a prima donna . And I'll say this I'll put my HR hat on Jordan , what's your work look like ? Are you a good performer ? Are you a quality performer ? Are you behind ? Because if you're behind , you probably need to go ahead and answer that Saturday email .
Speaker 2I find it interesting that sometimes poor performers are usually like well , I'm not doing that , but you kind of need to to catch up , right ? So , jordan , I'm sure you're a great performer , but if you not ask around , ask some of the people around you like hey , listen , look at my work package . Like am I delivering , am I ? You need to be really honest about that . The other thing I'll say is it you can't , it's probably not likely for you to expect a promotion just doing what you're asked .
Speaker 2I'm going to say that again for the people of that Don't expect a promotion just for doing your job . Many of us who have been on the corporate ladder on various stages know that if you want that next job , it's both positioning yourself with the right allies and network . But the better half is doing more than your ass , and that's what most companies expect . But the better half is doing more than your ass and that's what most companies expect , and so if you're really looking for to grow in your career , more often than not that other duties , as a sign box is actually quite big and quite large , and it's going to cost some nights and some weekends and blood , sweat and tears in order for you to get that next level up .
Speaker 1Absolutely . Thanks , yes , and honestly setting that tone right with your leader . You guys should be having conversations on . You know where you want your career to go . I know there's individuals in my team that they just want to do their job .
Speaker 2And go home , and go home , leave me alone .
Speaker 1And so no , they're not going to do the extra work , right ? They want to do what is asked of them and then clock out , and that's okay . You need those team members on the team because there's not going to be enough promotional opportunities for everybody , right ? But if you're someone that wants to grow , it is going to take , you know , that extra work of showing that you can do it and setting that tone .
Speaker 2All right . So if you ever have a chance to talk to a professional , you've got to ask them , like , what their top questions are , and so we're going to ask Julia , the talent matchmaker , what her top five questions . A candidate should ask a manager to make sure they're not a leader . That sucks .
Speaker 1Love this question , so I did jot down five questions that will be helpful . First one would be how do you describe your leadership style ? So it's important to ask this to your hiring manager , potential leader , because you want to understand how they describe themselves . Are they a people leader ? Are they hands-on , but not a micromanager ? We want to understand what style they lead their team in and if that fits your style . So , two , what do you do to keep your team motivated , especially during challenging times ? That one's a good one . Reason for this we want to understand , during high , stressful times maybe critical periods of the year , strict deadlines how do they lead their team , how do they guide their team during these challenging times and keep them motivated ? That's really important . Question number three how do you set goals with your team and how do you measure success ? Another big one , I would say .
Speaker 1A lot of the positions I recruit for are typically on the corporate side , so there's some sort of bonus aligned to the position that are typically in alignment to performance . So you want to understand how do they determine your success within your role . What are they using ? Kpis , are there certain criteria that you have to meet ? You want to understand how do they measure success in your role .
Speaker 1Question number four how do you onboard new team members to set them up for success ? So this is important , right ? So a lot of candidates might ask what does onboarding look within the first 30 to 60 days ? Honestly , a leader who has this mapped out is a leader who has prepared for this person to come on board and wants to set them up for success . So if they're able to confidently answer how they're going to set you up for success , they're ready for you and that typically highlights a strong leader . And then , last but not least , what is the most important leadership lesson you've learned in your career ? This question allows and kind of opens up the floor for a leader to be very authentic . They can share opportunities where they've had to hold themselves accountable as leaders . But you really can understand what type of leader they are if they can tell you how they've taken lessons and have learned from it . So these would be , I would say , five questions that will allow for you to dive a little bit deeper into what type of leader you're interviewing with .
Speaker 2Julia . I've really enjoyed our time together . I think it's been a fabulous conversation . So many nuggets from this conversation , I think one from understanding your culture to the five questions that you should ask when you're looking for your manager . Just so many nuggets . I'd be interested . If you have nuggets from this session , please drop them in the comments or shout them out on our Facebook page . Any final thoughts you want to share with the so your Boss Sucks community ?
Speaker 1Yes . Some final thoughts I would love to share is when you are in the search for your next opportunity whether that's passive search or you're actively searching don't be afraid to ask questions . Don't be afraid to interview the opportunity like they are interviewing you . This is going to be potentially a pivotal moment in your career , so you want to make sure that you understand the full picture , you understand what type of leadership you're going into . I know my sister once said you know , sometimes you can hop from one frying pan to the next . So that's the thing you don't want to do . You don't want to leave a toxic environment for another toxic environment . That's a little bit backwards . That you are confident in yourself and your skill sets to understand that an organization should also be selling you on the opportunity to join them . So always ask questions .
Speaker 2I like that because a lot of times organizations , especially if they have a big brand name , try to make it feel like you should be grateful to work for them . Not that they're gaining an asset because they're getting you , and so operating with that level of confidence also , I think , puts you within the leg up .
Speaker 1Absolutely , and a strong leader will know that too .
Speaker 2Absolutely Well , listen . This concludes our episode of so your Boss Sucks , now what ? Thanks again to Julia Cooper , the talent matchmaker . You've been an excellent guest and we're excited to see you . Hopefully one more time . We'll figure out that out . Yes , we'd love to . That's it for today . I'm excited about what's going on . This entire season is all about HR . I brought in some of my good friends to tell you how to navigate your sucky boss situations so you can go from suck to success . I'm excited about what's happening . Don't forget to like , share and subscribe , and remember , don't let your boss suck the life out of you . Today's episode is brought to you by Natalie Parker Enterprises , where we shape the future and unlock potential by helping organizations and people work together to do good work . Find out more at thenatalieparkercom or , if you'd like to bea .
