So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
Bad bosses happen to good people. Join entrepreneur, corporate trailblazer-turned-business strategist, and podcast host Natalie Parker as she unpacks real-life stories of tough leaders and toxic work environments. With Natalie’s expertise in navigating corporate chaos and building strategies for success, this podcast offers practical advice and actionable insights to help you turn workplace challenges into opportunities for growth. Whether you’re dealing with micromanagers, toxic cultures, or just plain bad vibes, this is your go-to guide for taking control, thriving, and proving that when your boss sucks, your success doesn’t have to.
So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
S2 E3: From Racial Slurs to Real Success: Turning Workplace Challenges into Career Growth with guest DeVaughn Stephens
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Racial slurs in the workplace, managers who know nothing about your job, and organizations eliminating leadership positions – welcome to the wild world of modern work. In this eye-opening conversation, HR executive DeVaughn G. Stephens and host Natalie Parker pull back the curtain on what really happens behind closed doors in corporate America.
DeVaughn shares the shocking story of a boss who called him an "effing moolie" during his first professional HR role, revealing how this trial-by-fire experience taught him to manage his reactions and take ownership of his career development. Their discussion examines the critical moment when DeVaughn realized "the better this resume becomes, the better I have to become" – fundamentally changing his approach to professional growth.
Far from just war stories, this episode delivers actionable insights for anyone navigating difficult leadership. DeVaughn explains why documenting your accomplishments, knowing when to speak up, and recognizing when to leave are essential skills for workplace survival. The conversation explores the concerning trend of organizations flattening hierarchies and eliminating management positions, questioning how this impacts employee development and supervision.
Most powerfully, DeVaughn challenges listeners to take full responsibility for their professional journeys: "Your career is your career. It is not the organization's, it is not your manager's." He and Natalie examine why HR professionals often give excellent career advice while failing to apply the same wisdom to their own situations.
Whether you're dealing with a boss who can't take feedback, considering when to pull the ripcord on a toxic job, or simply trying to navigate workplace politics, this candid conversation provides the perspective and strategies you need to thrive despite challenging leadership.
Don't let your boss suck the life out of you.
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He said my mother would call you an effing moolie . And he said that to me and I looked at him and before I knew it , I said to him I would have called your mother an OB . Or he had a copy of his resume and he said you see the resume . I said yes . He said that's who I compete against . He said the better this piece of paper becomes
Surviving an offensive boss
Speaker 1, the better I have to become . And in that moment I took my career development , my career management , into my own hands . I stopped , if you will , depending on others or expecting others to contribute to that in some way . All right , all right , we're back .
Speaker 2This is season two of so your Boss Sucks . Now what ? I'm Natalie Parker and I'm your host . I'm excited today because I am here with my friend , my homie for 20 plus years , the Mr Devon Stevens . Hello , Devon .
Speaker 1Hello Ms Parker , how are you ?
Speaker 2I'm excited . I'm excited because not only is he my friend , but he's also my brother , having gone to Morehouse , me going to Bennett , fellow partner in the HR trenches . So we're going to talk all about HR this season , this entire season , and I'm excited to have you . Why don't you share with us , like let's talk about your first really bad job ?
Speaker 1My first really bad job . Well , first , thank you for having me . I appreciate this . As you know , this is my first time doing something like this . He's going to kill me later , totally outside of my comfort zone . But anything for my friend , my sister , correct ? Oh , yes , so my first terrible job . I would probably argue that I haven't had many terrible jobs . I've had some really good learning experiences from some terrible moments on the job .
Speaker 2Okay .
Speaker 1And I think probably one of my first ones was graduating college , had gone home for a year and then got what I call my real job , started my career in HR in the summer of 2001, . When I met you for the first time , actually , and I was working for a gentleman who was very colorful , had a very dynamic character about him , a lot of personality , dynamic character about him , a lot of personality , and I remember he would always give me a hard time . I used to call him my tour mentor , if you will , as I spent on being a mentor .
Speaker 2Your tour mentor .
Speaker 1Yes , he would torment me on purpose .
Speaker 2Like trial by fire .
Speaker 1Trial by fire . He wanted a reaction .
Speaker 2What was the job , though ? What was the ?
Speaker 1I was in a corporate leadership development program in the human resources function . It was a rotational , meaning I was to spend a year in each of my assignments , so this particular year was my first year . It was in labor relations . It was in South Jersey . I had relocated from the Midwest , and so I was long ways from home , in an area unfamiliar to me , didn't know anyone . I had the benefit , though , of my best friend being over the river in Philadelphia , so that was some comfort . But I was new and learning how to live on my own , manage pay bills , be responsible , be an adult . And so here I am in this man's office and he is giving me my first terrible moment , and he's saying you know , my mother would probably call you an effing movie . Oh , no .
Speaker 1And I'm looking at him . He said that he said it to me In the office , in the office .
Speaker 2Not in the parking lot .
Speaker 1No , we were at work , we were in the workplace .
Speaker 2He said say this again .
Speaker 1He said my mother would call you an effing moolie and I did not know what that was . I later learned I guess it has some associations with an eggplant and the color black and things like that .
Speaker 2So he was Italian .
Speaker 1Yes , and I believe old school Italian . Okay , and he said that to me and I looked at him and before I knew it I said to him I would have called your mother an OB .
Speaker 2He just looked at me , but wait a minute , y'all are both in hr just exchanging slurs . Yes , at that moment don't do this at home children .
Speaker 1No , I don't , I don't encourage . But at that moment I think that I was not um paying attention to the fact that we worked in human resources . I was paying attention to the fact that this man just called me out of my name and the shock and the disrespect , I think , took me off guard , and so I think there was this reaction and I realized that that's a lot of what he would do . He would do those little triggers just to get a reaction out of me . I think it entertained him in some ways Until eventually , one night I remember I left work , mad at him around six o'clock or something . I left work and I went home and I literally sat on my couch in front of the TV . I never turned the TV on and I sat there fuming , mad , mad . I think . I probably cursed him and said all kinds of things and was ready to quit and go home .
Speaker 2He said worse things than the bully thing .
Speaker 1I'm sure , I'm sure , do you remember ?
Speaker 2what he said to send you in this space where you're just sitting in front of him .
Speaker 1I think he probably said something questioning my capability or my work or something like that . I'm not quite sure , because a lot of times it would often be more character , you know , assassination type things or just being nasty , just because you know . And I think , like I said , it was to get a rise out of . Yeah , and I remember sitting on that couch mad and then eventually , somewhere around 10 , 30 , 11 o'clock , I said why am I sitting on this couch mad by myself If he's at home ? And he drank . He told me he would drink a glass of red wine every night .
Speaker 1I said he's probably drank his glass of red wine , enjoyed his family and going to bed peacefully . Why am I mad ? And I don't have anybody else to be mad with me . I need some company if I'm going to be mad , because it's no fun doing this by yourself . Let's commiserate . And so I realized that I'm not going to let him get me anymore , I'm not going to let him trigger me or get those rises out of me anymore , and so I kind of learned how to just look at him and either say nothing or smile when he would start cutting up .
Speaker 2So why didn't you report him Like , why didn't you go tell somebody else like he's so out of pocket ?
Speaker 1You know that's a good question , I think . Being young in my career , being away from home , as he would do other things to teach me and expose me to things , I remember one time that he took a colleague and I to New York City , took us to the Statue of Liberty and he took me to my first dinner with a live opera singing , and I had been exposed to , you know , different types of food calamari , first time I ever had bruschetta and all those types of things . And whenever we would deal with because this was a labor relations rotation we would deal with the union , he made it a point to give me space in place to be seen and to be heard , and so I think I tended to overlook or minimize those moments where he was doing what he would be doing just to pick him in , you know , take me off of his own , probably self-enjoyment .
Speaker 2But do you think , because labor relations can be a bit of a tough role , right ? Do you think some of that was to toughen you up because you did have to deal with the labor union ?
Speaker 1Probably so , and I can imagine that being the case , because a lot of times you do end up in some very contentious , confrontational type moments with management and union , particularly when you disagree on contractual terms or different actions that may have been taken . But I had also grown up in a blue collar unionized town . I grew up in the Midwest , so I grew up in the Metro Detroit area and in the UAW families , so it wasn't like I was
Devon's first terrible job experience
Speaker 1unfamiliar with that . I watched my grandparents and other members of my family get up and go into plants and factories to build cars and so forth on a daily basis , so I understood that side . I probably didn't understand the side of being on the management team , though . Right .
Speaker 1So it may have been part of helping me build the toughen my skin you know a little bit , but I never asked him why .
Speaker 2Would you go back and ask Like , because you're not talking like like . I've shared my stories with everyone here and there are still some people that you know . I'm glad that I survived it , and if I saw them on the street while I wouldn't push them in front of a car , I don't know that I would have the grace to be like hey , how you doing Right , but you don't seem to have that animus . We talk about this , I probably . If you read the Bible , I'm probably more like Peter . You say something to me . I'm cutting your ear off .
Speaker 1You are definitely more of a peacemaker than I am , I think for the most part , there were moments where he showed me more of kindness or care and concern . I think he just had a rough around the edge way about doing it . Yeah , and so .
Speaker 2And we're talking 20 years ago . This is like , not now 24 , technically . Don't talk to me . I had to say all that . Nobody asked you that .
Speaker 1Listen , listen , it hit me this year . I was like , wow , I've been doing this a long time . But I think a lot of it also goes to how I was brought up , my maternal grandmother and my mom . They were very intentional about exposing me and my brother and my cousins to different walks of life . Right , sure , we wear blue collar , we grew up in , quote , unquote , the inner city , urban area and so forth , and you can take all of the stereotypes and characterizations you want to put on that as you will , but my family was very intentional about exposing us to all types of people .
Speaker 1We , you know , with community service , we did a lot of community services , children . My mom's godmother , part of her parish , her Catholic parish ran a soup kitchen and so we had to volunteer and serve the homeless . We had to help pack Christmas gifts and you know , we had to help pack Christmas gifts , and you know . And we were part of upper brown programs , and my particular upper brown . We were on a boarding school campus . So I was exposed , you know , from the from , from , from the , I guess , lower class to the upper class , whatever . However , you want to characterize those , those , those social classes , right , you know , characterize those social classes right , and so I didn't . I wasn't quick to just judge , but I was not a fool to not pay attention to how people treated you . My grandmother also taught me it doesn't take but two seconds , two and two , to figure , to realize you know a person sometimes , and so I've paid attention to those things , and then I also learned how to navigate and maneuver accordingly , so that we could still have the relationship and interactions that we needed to have .
Speaker 2I think there's two things that came to mind for me that you said that I think is important . One is you mentioned it twice you value relationships , and so that typically dictates how you respond in situations which I don't know for me . Sometimes I'm ready to blow up the bridge and I'm okay with it . But and you know , maybe people are like you where you're like . No , I value the relationship . But I think the other thing that's really commendable is your ability to see the thread of doing soup kitchen work and bringing some of the value into a really difficult situation . And I think a lot of times , when we're in really bad leadership situations with people , that we don't look at the arc of our life to say what are the tools that we can bring into the situation to help us navigate , survive and thrive . I appreciate that .
Speaker 1Yeah , I've always kind of realized that sometimes the behaviors you're seeing in another person you never know you may exhibit them one day yourself , right ? And so I try to just be a little mindful of how I come across , because I think , in knowing myself , if that button gets pushed because I'm a very much a compartmentalizer and a suppression type person in order for me to keep moving and keep going , and I know that if you push that button , whatever happened two , three years ago , weeks ago , months ago it's going to come right up in this moment and by the time we finish , one of us won't be walking out and not plan to walk out . So we have to be not only mindful of the other but be aware of who you are too , and so I or be aware of what your triggers might be . So I think I've tried to pay attention to those things as I've grown up , you know , because as a kid I probably would have been a little bit more explosive and I probably would have , as they say , set you straight , right where you stood .
Speaker 1But the kids , they now stand on dead and that business would have been firm with me . You understand what I'm saying , but I would have been paying attention to the fact that now you're not a kid anymore , I'm an adult in a professional setting , and my conduct , I think , should reflect that .
Speaker 2And I think that's really sometimes people forget that you are , it's work right and how you present is a direct reflection on you . People may never see how the leader acts .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2So we've taken kind of account , you and I right , if we laid our cars together I'm almost certain you had at least three or four worse leaders than me right In the arc of your career . You've had some really interesting exchanges Like walk us through kind of high level , like what were some of those scenarios and how did you kind of with each level ? Because you've risen in your career well , from , you know , being in the leadership development program to being an executive Right . So I mean , and at every level you've had some kind of challenge .
Speaker 1Absolutely . I think , when I look at my career , a lot of the assignments that I've had and not just the work or the task part of those assignments , but the management relationships have been trialed by fire and I have been burned , gotten some burns and been able to heal from them along the way . I think one of my , if you will , worse management experiences actually was probably one of my most teachable moments for me . I remember having a manager that was very standoffish , not very communicative , not very advisory , not very communicative , not very advisory , and it just was a difficult relationship . And I remember going in and asking for a salary revision and I went to the individual and said , hey , I don't think that my salary is aligned with the scope of the role that I have . The role that I have is a lot bigger than what I'm being paid and so I would respectfully like to have my salary reconsidered and did you come with all of the evidence of like .
Speaker 2Here's what I'm doing now . List of like .
Speaker 1Here's what I'm doing now list Absolutely , and he himself knew it . Yeah , Because we went from a team of I think there may have been three or four , including myself on the business partner team , down to just two . It was the lead manager , him and then me , and I'm covering all of this , included doing handling all the functional work with staffing , with comp , with EEO diversity , AAP work .
Speaker 1It was a lot , it was a great job , a lot , as well as having a small union to also interface with , and so it was a lot of work and I just felt like my pay was not reflective of that . It didn't line with what I thought the market was paying for the caliber of work I was performing .
Speaker 1Which , as an HR professional , it is our job to know that Nothing we're going to deal with on a daily basis is someone coming in talking about pay , whether they were paid improperly , properly , timely , untimely , what have you ? It's always . You know there's always a pay issue coming . But I remember doing that . He came back to me . He was very clear . He said this is the job that I have and the pay that you're making is what I'm paying for . It . Like it or love it , it is what it is . Ok . And that was it . I said OK . He then went forward in our conversation and he said you see this resume . I think he had brought a copy of his resume or he had a copy of his resume . He said you see the resume . I said yes . He said that's who I compete against . He said the better this piece of paper becomes , the better I have to become .
Speaker 1And in that moment I took my career development , my career management , into my own hands . I stopped , if you will , depending on others or expecting others to contribute to that in some way , and I started to realize that the dependence I needed to change that to using them as resources , not as sources , of what I was doing in my career , whether it was my pay or my assignments and so forth , and so I kept my nose to the grind . I was completing my master's , I think during that time I knew that the company had a payback requirement . I called the tuition assistance program , found out when was the last day that I would be responsible or held accountable for paying back anything associated with my master's degree . And when I finished my master's and got past that date , I was actively interviewing , I found a new position and I effectively resigned . And then I went that date I was actively interviewing , I found a new position and I effectively resigned . And then I went from there .
Speaker 2Listen , I'm not mad at you . At the end of the day , you've got to own your career and , with organizations being where they are , as much as we want to believe they're merit based , they're also usually not looking to just give away money , Right and ? And so one you advocated , Two you put you know having , and I told this story . I think I told this story to this group about how I was denied a good performance rating and I brought in like this whole manual of all the things I didn't like . Now tell me how I didn't deserve more Right and so going , armed with data , and I tell the team every , every time . I tell a group every time document everything , because you're your best defense when things fall apart . It's just important .
Speaker 1And I'll tell you that , even with to your point of document everything , it has taken me years to get to that point . I had to learn how to create a special email file to push those things to the side so I could have a quick access to the records , because before I did not , you know , it took me a long time to say you need to catalog that stuff , and I didn't do it . You need to catalog that stuff and I didn't do it . And then , when it came time for performance review time , I'm scrambling , going through everything , trying to find the evidence or , you know , reference back to this date or this moment and things of that nature .
Speaker 1So we have to be deliberate . Be as deliberate with yourself as you are with others , and I think that's one of the things that I've learned with HR . We , as HR professionals , will take better care of others . We'll coach and counsel and engineering and finance and all the other functional groups and businesses that we support , but when it comes for us , we are not good at it . We don't give ourselves the same advice and the same coaching and counseling , and so I've had to learn how to do that along along those years , and so you know good point .
Speaker 2That's fair . That's fair . It's hard . As a caregiver of people in an organization , you do have to put the oxygen mask on yourself . Let's talk about your role as an HR leader . So you've seen hundreds of employees in different industries come in and out of your office . When you think about , like , the number one complaint that people have about their leader , what's the theme ? You see , what's the like , the top three typically it will .
Speaker 1It has been around and in top three . So I won't rank the three , I'll just cluster them . There's typically an element of race , there is an element of sex and then there is just an element of dislike or that disrespect . Okay , and so I have seen . Where , you know , a person may come in and say , well , I feel that I'm being picked on or my performance review was not good , and of course it may be because , you know , I'm the only female on the team . They give all of the roles to the young guys or to the young white guys , or they only cater to this group , or I hang out with this friend or that friend or something of that effect , or I don't socialize after work , and so now I'm being excluded and disrespected and things of that nature . It is what I have learned not to do , which I think initially was probably the first reaction was to argue . Their perception of their experience .
Speaker 2Say that one more time . You've learned not to .
Speaker 1I've learned not to argue their perception of their experience , because they're coming in telling me this is how I have perceived how I've been treated . This is how I this is my reality how I have perceived how I've been treated . This is how I this is my reality .
Speaker 1And I think when I first started early in my career , being young , probably a little immature , a little naive , I was trying to argue that down , trying to dismiss it or to or minimize it in some way , because I think I would feel I would , I would feel you could feel the , the , the , the , the , the hurt or the , whatever you know discomfort they felt .
Speaker 1And I'm trying to know no , maybe that's not what they met .
Speaker 1And here I am trying to think for this manager , and I started to .
Speaker 1I can't think for them , I don't know what they were thinking in that moment , no more than I can think for you and how you feel and how you've been treated .
Speaker 1And so I learned to listen and I learned to coach or give some tips and tools on how they can go back and address it . And one of the tips that I typically give is be very upfront , be very clear , be very direct and assertive about how to treat , how to tell them how to treat you and how you respond to certain things , and so so if they are typically someone who yells and maybe they're yelling has this aggressive bent to it , be very clear with them that you don't respond well to that type of you know tone and tenor and that type of communication style . You shut off from that . Because when they now have that awareness but yet they persistently or consistently keep doing it , then I think we have a problem . And I also think sometimes when you don't give a person an opportunity , when you don't tell them no or don't tell them stop , or something like that they don't know They'll keep doing what they don't know not to do .
Speaker 2It's funny you should say that because a lot of people stay silent . So I'm now back at your first story , where you're like I didn't say a whole lot of things to the guy who was calling me all these little slurs , but now your position in your role coaching others is like no , speak up , right , say something . I think most people don't speak up because they don't know how . They don't know how to do it without an impassioned and bold and you know diatribe that makes them feel like they're about to be on , you know , the last scene of glory .
Speaker 1I'd like to believe that . I used to believe that they didn't know how . People know how to speak up for themselves . As we talked about pay being you know an issue that whenever your pay is a problem , you speak up very clearly . Whenever your pay is a problem , you speak up very clearly . So if you can speak up for your pay , you can speak up when someone has offended you or taken a step too far in your boundaries or whatever that they may have crossed with you Speak up . Silence perpetuates issues , so you can't keep silent and then expect somebody to automatically change because they didn't hear you say that this didn't feel good or that you did something wrong to them or you felt uncomfortable . But the moment that they hear it and you know that you've been very clear now they're accountable for it they're not .
Speaker 2They're accountable for it . So but what do you say ? Because you told you said the three top issues you saw were race , sex and being excluded or disrespected in some kind . To me , all of those situations are majority , minority . In some way , shape or form . Like I am not with them . I have some level of otherness that puts me outside of the sanctum of being in the cool kids , if you will . So what do you like ? What do you say to the person who's maybe done some of that ? But either they're being deflected or people are pretending it's not the problem , Like so if I know that you're , you've got cronyism or nepotism and I didn't get a job , like because it's hard to prove . It's hard to prove .
Speaker 1Let's let's assume that a , an HR professional or a company did the good faith , investigated , addressed the issue and took some corrective action investigated , addressed the issue and took some corrective action . But let's assume that the person or the issue didn't change right and it's just persistent . Because sometimes these cultures , these organizational cultures , are so thick and so legacy it is hard to break them and they're not going to break overnight , may not even break in a year . You have to realize that you don't have to stay in that and I think a lot of times people stay in these situations because one they don't want to put forth the effort to go look for something new , because that requires effort and time and energy and things of that nature and taking a risk too right . But you know it's a choice to be in the organization , it's a choice to be here . So sometimes the best thing for yourself is to remove yourself , so leave Just like you accepted the offer . Resign , so leave , just like you accepted the offer , resign .
Speaker 2So it's funny because we talk about often about when to tell people , when to pull the ripcord right , like when's the time for you to leave , not over petty differences , not over the fact that you didn't get your way in a meeting , but when it's harming you psychologically or emotionally . Right , you left
Taking ownership of your career
Speaker 2because of the whole pay situation . Have you ever stayed somewhere too long ? Like you know what ? I stayed too long .
Speaker 1Actually , yes , I think I have a couple well , maybe two moments that I can think of in my career where I felt like I stayed too long .
Speaker 2And what was hindsight being 2020, ? What were the two or three indicators that it was like too long ?
Speaker 1Well , the first thing was and I don't want , but it took me a moment to first realize what was my purpose in being in this particular assignment .
Speaker 2Say it again , that's good .
Speaker 1I had to figure out my purpose . Why was I , why did I choose to accept this offer , relocate my entire life , come to this state , this place , this company , and do this work with this group ? And once I realized what that purpose was , then it was then time to realize , well , what were the perspective , things or actions that I was supposed to take , or accomplishments , or whatever achievements that I needed to make . And then say , okay , it's time to go and exit . And in this particular case , I think I realized that my purpose in that assignment was to develop others , was to give to others what I had gotten over the years , the goodness of what I had gotten Now . I'm a strength-based type of person , so I will leverage your strengths to help build you , and I don't necessarily I'm not going to anchor on where your quote-unquote weaknesses are or areas of development . I think if I highlight your strengths , then we can overcome those other areas and you can perform and do well . And so I had .
Speaker 1I think my purpose was to develop the team members , and so there was one where they needed some credentials and I needed to support them as they gained their credentials . They were in a position and I said I remember saying to them look for the profile of this job and what you're bringing to the table . There's a mismatch . We need to get you some credentials so that when , if you ever , decide to leave here or even grow in this organization , when you put your paper on the street in the market , your credentials and your work will all line up and it will be easy . You won't get dismissed because you don't have the education or you won't get dismissed because you don't have quote unquote years of experience in something like that .
Speaker 2And you stay trying to get the person .
Speaker 1Get that person , get another , move them along in their career . Get them experiences .
Speaker 2What did that cost you , though ? Because that's a lot of energy . I mean , you're getting your paycheck , don't get me wrong . And as a leader you should be helping your team , but you knew it was time to go .
Speaker 1I did . As a matter of fact , I knew it was time to go , probably two years before the actual time to leave came , but I said I'm going to stay through these next two years . And what happened is one of the individuals I think I may have become even too vested in their development too , but one of the individuals made a decision that I didn't necessarily see coming . Um , and at the time that they made that decision , um , I should have said okay , divine , now you've done what you were supposed to do , you have satisfied this purpose . Now you need to start looking for your opportunity to exit out . But I also had a uh , particularly at this time an actual good boss who would say things and do things to convince me to stay , gave retention bonuses , gave promotions , gave good increases , gave good assignments and tasks , and so I think I got conflicted with that and in my own- Perfect , like your next person .
Speaker 2That's correct and I think that's really important to say , because a lot of times organizations , especially if you have potential , if you're considered a high potential , if you're considered a valuable , key player in your organization , will do things to pacify and satiate you , right , whether that's you know degrees or certificates and training and all of that's good . But the real question is are you growing and is this the best thing for you ? Right , right , because they can continue to kind of , you know , sedate you into a comfort because they love you and they need you . But is that the best thing for ?
Speaker 1you . It's a good question and you know I am the product of baby boomers loyalists , and so you know it was getting an education , get a good job , stay at that company , retire , collect your pension and things of that nature . But I'm also that first generation . I think that started to break away from that .
Speaker 2Yeah , but you and I still probably have more tenure in most of our second and third and fourth jobs than most people .
Speaker 2So I talk about this in the last speeches . We grew up and it said get good grades , go to college and get a job , not a purpose , not anything else . Right , the job was the thing you get , that's it , and you ride it out until the wheels fall off . Right , and it's nothing for us to have seen people and come in . When we came into the workforce , I bet you that first guy was in there . 25 , 30 years , right , that was really a lot for us to see . But now the average tenure in any company is like 3.8 years , according to the Department of Labor Statistics .
Speaker 1Two if you're lucky .
Speaker 2And I don't even understand how you get depth with that , right ? Like I mean , how do you get depth in a skill set with just two years ? Right , I think you've got it . It takes one year to learn it , another year to try to change it and another year after that to see what the change happened , right ?
Speaker 1Yes , but I think a lot of times you know when you're being recruited out . You know the carrots are always a lot more tastier and a lot more shiny , and everything , when they're in front of you . And so , whereas you spent two , maybe three years at one company , they've done all the training , the investment and so forth . The new company now gets the benefit of all of that and all I have to do is give you the actual task and you can write the codes , you can engineer the assignment , you can HR your way out of a situation now .
Speaker 2It's just a different environment . No , but part of that . I think we saw it when we were coming up to where employers would see people give them more , give them more accountabilities and not give them the pay Right . So I'm giving you a whole extra job or a whole extra accountability . That's more significant than like just this one extra task .
Speaker 1But your performance and your skill and your proficiency did lack extra task right , but your performance and your skill and your proficiency did lack .
Speaker 2Yeah , but my point is how many times did you see where it's like oh , so-and-so has been in this job and they're below midpoint by 7% , 8% and we want to give that ?
Speaker 1oh , we don't give 10% increases but , they deserve 10% increases in contrast to all of their peers , because the companies aren't willing to do those shifts and changes to keep the talent Correct , and so I think again that goes to where the former mentality was I'll just stay and suffer through that Right , Whereas today no , Thankfully I've gotten the education , the training , the certificates and some skills in these first year or two , and now , when X company comes out and they're going to give me not only the 10 percent but but but a 15 percent bonus coming with it , oh , I'm leaving .
Speaker 2But don't we just create a workforce of mercenaries ? Does everybody just kind of prostitute it out here for next year ?
Speaker 1You do , which is why I think for me , what I have done in the last probably the last 10 years of my career is I've really been a promoter of getting the return on your investment . So , particularly in the role where I have been you know , the head of HR I have told my management team look , we're the company that has invested in this person to get these skills to be able to do this , to run this machine or to engineer this process , or to design this or formulate that . I wouldn't give that up easily . And guess what ? We can give them 10% , because if I go recruit out , I'm going to pay 20% more for a new recruit whom you don't know their background or you don't .
Speaker 2And it's going to cost you more to recruit them .
Speaker 1You're going to trust what they tell you in an interview and what you read on paper , and we have to believe that that'll show up at work .
Speaker 2It's better to have the devil you know than the devil you don't .
Speaker 1That is very true .
Speaker 2So , so , so , head of HR , I want you to put on your futurist hat , because one of the things that's happening now right , so we had the great , we had the great was it the great Resignation , resignation , the great resignation ? Then we had quiet quitting right , that was like a big thing , like nobody ever quiet quit before . Anyway , it was a whole bunch of people that quiet quit in the 2000s , 2010s .
Speaker 1Listen , I did some quiet quitting in the early in the mid 2000s , I think , when it was time for me to make some exits . Now that you look at what the definition is or how to describe it , I think I did that .
Speaker 2So that being what it is the new , you know , a new trend that's happening is where organizations are starting to flatten their workforce , right , so Harvard Business Review had an article out talking about it . Recently , amazon talked about the fact that they're going to get rid of like 13,000 managers . Last year , meta did the same . What like , as a leader of HR , having been in some really big companies , what like ? Let's talk about this because I have my own opinion , but I really want to hear from you Like what do you think that means , not only for the organization but for the workforce ?
Speaker 1Well , they just call it right sizing Right . We're just right sizing the organization . It comes down . Yes , there may be some efficiency and proficiency that is generated from that , but it comes down to the dollars and cents . It's money , it's cost .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , Amazon said it's going to be like $3.2 , $3.8 billion savings or something like that , which tells me they just made repeated hiring . That's a lot of people all at the same time in a very short period of time .
Speaker 1It is a lot of people . I think to me that's where companies have to pay attention to what they say , because a lot of times companies will get up and they'll advocate our people are first , our people , our culture is people is people centric . We are , we value our people . We have all kind of pontificated and hyperbole around people , impact these people's livelihood and well-being , and we don't prepare or we don't help transition and we just drop you off and dump you . Where's that same value , where's that same priority ? Where's that same culture that was supposed to be people-centric when it comes to that ?
Speaker 2It's interesting you should say that I had a client that were like oh , we're a family , we're a family and I'm like , well , what happens when you have to lay off the family ? It's basically like you're amputating a part of your organization Because family takes care of family .
Speaker 1Right that part .
Speaker 2And listen , I get it . A business is a business and the business has to make money , and if it can't make money then it's not profitable . So , so there's no . You might as well be a charity , I get it Like that's not lost on me , but I do think it's interesting how the pendulum is swinging from copious amounts of hierarchy to we're going to be as lean as we possibly can . It kind of reminds me when we first came into the workforce right , like the pendulum continues to switch back and forth . What do you think that's going to mean for the managers who stay and the employees that have to now be under this lean workforce ?
Speaker 1I think that it's a fact of life , right ? So , I think , one we have to realize . We have to stop acting like we've never been here before , right , we've . I've seen this cycle throughout my entire career , so so , so , so , let's stop acting like we've never seen an exercise and staff reductions . We've never seen exercises in spans and layers .
Speaker 2Yeah , but you've got the Gen Z's new to the workforce right there now . And spans and layers , yeah , but you've got the Gen Z's new to the workforce right they're now . This is this first experience , but they've probably seen their parents and others , you know , get reduced . Welcome to the world of work . I can't stand you .
Speaker 1Welcome to life . I cannot stand you . Welcome to reality , you are so vocalist .
Speaker 2Here's what I think is going to happen . Here's my thing right , everyone , you'll get these leaning of the workforce and the spans of control . The number of managers to employees will double and in some places triple , and that will become even more stressful for an already stressed out workforce . And when you think , in the cycles of performance , management , discipline and all of that stuff , it'll go untamed . Because how can I be managed , how do you even know I'm working on , if you got 30 other people to consider ?
Speaker 1I think . Well , I'll say this Well , look at a public school teacher who has probably 30 , 40 students in a class . It's not the same , it's probably worse . And they have unruly children .
Speaker 2They have more performance assessments and more behavioral issues than we have with civilized adults , but typically a teacher gives everyone in the room 30 assignments that are the same assignment . If I'm a program manager with 30 direct reports or a project manager with 30 direct reports or a project manager with 30 direct reports , and I've got somebody working Scrum , I've got somebody working software , I've got somebody working debt , like everybody's working something different , I can't assess them the same .
Speaker 2So , you trust them to do the job that you've hired them to do it . How do I know what they're doing ? That's part of the reason why the hierarchy shrinking , because most of the people never knew what the people were doing Well .
Speaker 1at the end of the day , everything has to come and meet a central point right , so we're all contributing to some common goal .
Speaker 2What happens is the work gets delegated and it should get reintegrated back into a bigger goal .
Speaker 1Right . So how do you then , as the manager ? If you have a goal to reach , you have a task , whatever that might be how do you know if that task has been accomplished or that goal has been reached ? Everybody has to do their part . If there's a missing part , you know where that missing part is All right .
Speaker 2I'm going to say this again In all of your work as an HR leader , you need to tell me all of your managers knew what your people were doing .
Speaker 1They may not have known every , down to the dotting the I crossing the T , down to the dotting the I crossing the T . But you have enough of an awareness so that because , at the end of the day remember , managers are looking out for themselves as well they try to make sure that they're not getting caught up because you failed to do something right . They're going to explain away why you failed to do something , so they don't get caught up too . So they're going to make sure that things have to get done .
Speaker 2I don't think so . Maybe I don't have as much faith in humanity as you do . Listen , I want to hear from y'all . Listen , if you're listening to this on YouTube , or find me on Instagram or Facebook . I want to know how many of you know that your manager has no clue of what you do Like , even if you worked your goals up right now . Clue of what you do Like even if you wrote your goals up right now , they would have no way to check it . They wouldn't even know how you do your work . I want to hear that Like . I've experienced some of that , not in some ways personally , and once I experienced it one time early in my career , when I was working in Jersey . I was like never again and I made it a point to give my manager weekly reports of what I was doing , because what you're not going to do is never know what I'm talking about so that you could talk about it to other people . So I made a point to inform my leader .
Speaker 1But I have also witnessed firsthand in several different industries where managers are like , yeah , I don't know what they do , or people knew that their manager didn't know what they did Personally my managers have not necessarily , again , they've not known every specific detail , every movement , every individual action I've taken , but they've known enough of the high level to know , to have an awareness and an understanding so that if something did come back to them they weren't caught off guard . Now , part of that to me is on the responsibility of the employee . I agree At least to your point . You were sending updates or something , weekly reports , so that they at least knew that I've only had , I think , maybe two managers , but one that I can remember where specifically I did that with this individual and , to be honest with you , I did it out of spite .
Speaker 2Wait a minute . Why were you being spiteful ?
Speaker 1Because this individual , they wanted to come to me to tell me that I , you know , hadn't done some things , or , or , or . What have you only to realize ? Oh , he actually did do it , did it very well , and now that manager is getting the glory for what I did . That's awesome . So I said , since you want to act this way , let me show you what it really looks like . And so I made . I made sure that they were very informed on a weekly basis , creating a whole template so that they would see and I emailed it to them on Fridays , I think , either Friday afternoons or Friday evenings as to what I accomplished that week . And eventually they got overwhelmed with that and they stopped asking and they stopped wanting it and they started trusting me to do the job that they had hired me to do . You're paying me at a certain level . You're hiring me at a certain level . Trust me to manage , trust me to lead .
Speaker 2I agree . I agree with you and , from an HR perspective , I know I have been working with directors and program managers who like like oh yeah , that's Bob , but I'm really not sure , and we've had to either discipline the leader or coach them because they weren't aware of what the person was doing . And I expect that , as we see this flattening , we're going to see a surfacing of leaders being overwhelmed in a season where they're already overwhelmed . It's possible Because we don't have . One of the things is , when we were coming up , we had managers whose job , their only job , was to manage . They weren't working managers . I have yet to come across many leaders who their only job is to lead . They have both a job and they have to manage the people and I think they're going to continue to be overwhelmed and that's going to cause the work environment , the culture and even people's development opportunities to be stunted , because they'll only reach for the people they know .
Speaker 1Isn't one of the arguments of flattening ? We're going to streamline processes .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , they want to be more agile . We're going to be agile .
Speaker 1It's going to make communication trash everything is going to be so much more easier to do right , that's what so if that's the case , then shouldn't it be easier to manage people ?
Speaker 2I don't . You guys tell me what you think . I don't agree . I think that I think this guy named elliot jack , who's really the father of organizational theory on hierarchy right . His theory is there's any organization needs no more than eight levels . If you have more than eight levels , you have too many because each level has a varying degree of accountability . That adds difficulty and has a level of thinking outward right .
Speaker 2So a level eight CEO of like company , like you know , the big boys like Microsoft or whatever , you've got to think you know generations out to be ahead of what's coming , whereas if you're a level four manager , you've got to be able to manage . You know groups of people .
Speaker 1And these eight levels , this is from the employee at the lowest level which is doing tactical Yep .
Speaker 2And so if you look at the lowest , level which is doing tactical yep , and so if you look at the military there , his argument is there's gradations but there's solid levels of like . If you're level one , you're doing day , you know in , in and out work . It's just you take an order , you do the order . You take an order , you do an order and you have very little latitude . And if you got more than eight levels , I say , yeah , you , you're probably doing too much , but I expect that it's going to have some pain before it gets better , have you ?
Speaker 1ever seen one that didn't .
Speaker 2Shut up .
Speaker 1For me . I'm just very practical and pragmatic about it . I don't argue that , whatever the business came to and said the reasons why they came to say we need to flatten , okay , I'm trusting that there's probably some legitimacy in it .
Speaker 2I'm more suspicious . I'm always suspicious , but I would say that at the end of the day you said it and I agree with you , and I think I've said it too where you have to advocate both for your work package and for your career , right , you have to be in charge of that . So I asked for letters and I have a few , so I'm excited . Thank you so much for all of you who have submitted , and this letter is from Elise J , who's a graphic designer from Miami . Hey , elise , dear , so your Boss Sucks . I don't even know why . My boss asked for feedback . She says she wants open communication , but the second anyone actually gives her suggestions . She takes it as a personal attack and , honestly , it's exhausting .
Speaker 2A few weeks ago we were in a team meeting and my coworker , jake , casually suggested that we make a small tweak in our design flow , literally just a way to make a file sharing easy . Before he could even finish his sentence , she cut him off with oh so you're saying my system doesn't work ? Jake just blinked , then awkwardly backtracked no , I just thought , maybe because I've been doing this for years and I've been doing it this way for years . She shuffled and she huffed and crossed her arms and it works fine , she said . And so that was that . Nobody else spoke for the rest of the meeting .
Speaker 2And this isn't new . If we bring up challenges , she waves them off and says it's just how the industry is . If we suggest something new , she acts like we're calling her incompetent . If someone pushes back , she gets defensive and finds a way to subtly ice them out of our future projects . At this point we all just nod and smile and go along with whatever she says , which sucks , because I love my work and my actual team , but the environment is stifling . We're supposed to be a creative team , but how are we supposed to innovate when speaking up feels like we're stepping on landmines ? So what do you do when the biggest roadblock is communication ? What should I do ? How do I fix the psychological safety when my leader is the problem ?
Speaker 1It's a good question in that situation .
Speaker 2Quit . You could , I mean't speak up , you could . And this is for me this is a ripcord moment , because if you can't speak up and you can't do your if and it's it sounds like the graphic designing is usually group it's a group , project , right , it's a group . And if you can't go to anyone else to share what's happening , to figure out how to influence her , then yeah , I'm just quitting . As a reaction , I'll say this one who else does she listen to ? Who else influences her that you may be able to befriend , get alongside , build an ally with , that can lean on her in a way that you can't .
Speaker 1The other thing I think I'm hearing in that letter is it sounds like in the example she gave , the suggestion was brought up in a group setting . I don't know if the manager would be different if the suggestions were brought one-on-one . Okay , and that way it gives her an opportunity to think through it and because sometimes when you have to respond in the moment , you know you may you don't have an answer sometimes , right , and you may want to think through . Jake , I think that's the co-worker that gave the file sharing suggestion .
Speaker 1You may want to have some time . Let me think through what Jake has suggested , and I need maybe more than a moment when we're in this meeting together or something like that , so maybe maybe approaching the manager one-on-one . The other thing to do is also collectively , if you all stand behind an idea An intervention .
Speaker 1Absolutely , and do so . And guess what ? Sometimes these managers need to be taught lessons too , right ? Ooh , okay , shady say it , and I think that there's power in numbers . So band together and support one another . If you all support Jake's file sharing suggestion idea , then all 10 , 12 , five , whatever number of you all in the group raise your hand and say we support it . We think it will work .
Speaker 2I like that and I think- .
Speaker 1Give us a trial period .
Speaker 2So I think let's first identify what's going on here . Your leader , for whatever reason , is , I'm going to say an insecure , she's insecure about something .
Speaker 2I think you have a point in . I had a leader that , like you , never wanted to look wrong in any public setting , and so if we had any recommendations , we had to give it to her in writing beforehand to say have you considered ? And it was always a really passive way , and she ended up having to chew on it for like days because she was more of a person who liked to kind of take her homework home and do it herself and then come with a full solution as if she had done it herself .
Speaker 1Now the whole you know , come up with a solution as if I had done it myself . Piece .
Speaker 2I like it , but if it gets you to where you need to go .
Speaker 1But I do understand , because I am also someone who needs to . Sometimes I need a little time to digest and process and come back now , but I'm also one that will give you full credit for your idea and what you've done . I'm not going to take that from you .
Speaker 2But I do think . But if she's if she , I would imagine , I'm going to assume if she's not going to take
Top employee complaints about leaders
Speaker 2feedback in person , in group setting , I'd first try it one-on-one , I'd second try it in writing . That way you can at least get a response in writing and if it's , you know , really out of pocket , you can go to HR and then again .
Speaker 1Sometimes you have to let them manage . Teach a manager a lesson . Let them trip over their own feet facts . Let her continue with her process as she is . You don't ? You don't argue with crazy .
Speaker 2No , because you never know how crazy , crazy , doesn't know how crazy it is , and not to suggest that the man is crazy .
Speaker 1So I say that you know , although she might be , but I say that facetiously . But my thing is learn when to let go . And if you give and put the idea out there , it's out there . If they want to take it , let them take it , if they don't , you move on . But if it's causing you that much frustration , that much angst , then I think again , that's when you may have to , to your point , you may have to make a decision . Is this the team I want to be on , the manager I want to work under ? You know , do I need to make some changes for my own psychological safety ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think it also depends on the job , right , because graphic design is such a creative job and if you don't have the space as a creative to be creative , because there's so much , the vibe is so challenging , I could see where it could be a little stifling .
Speaker 1Yes , and if you don't want your creativity stifled , then you have to know when to . You got to know your triggers right , so you got to know when you need to eat them . You know what changes you need to make and how that change you know needs to manifest for you . So that's how I look at it .
Speaker 2So , Devon , we've had a really robust conversation and I've really enjoyed it . So I guess my question to you is you know , when you think about all of the bad bosses , you survived . What's your one or two gems , nuggets , jewels ? You would tell people to thrive in environments that may be less than desirable for them .
Speaker 1I think the first thing is to recognize that your career is your career . It is no one else's , it is not the organization's , it is not your manager's . It is yours and you can depend on them if you want to , if it makes sense , or you can leverage them all as resources to help you manage your career , to develop your career . The organization is there to provide a job and hopefully that job comes with experiences that help to build your career . But you own it all . So make those decisions for yourself . You know whether it's time , location or whatever it might be . Figure that out for yourself , because a lot of times some of the employee issues we get are because they want somebody else , they want HR to figure it out for them . Facts and I can't do that for you . One of the things I cannot do for you is think for you .
Speaker 2You know it's interesting . You should say that too , because I feel like both managers and employees want us to play roughly sometimes .
Speaker 1They do . Now I will tell you that my personal employee relations philosophy is I'm pro-employee until management shows me otherwise . So when they come in the room and I'm listening , I'm hearing both sides , but unless the management can show me that this employee indeed is wrong , or what have you , I'm sending y'all back out . You two resolve this and fix this . And manager , listen to what your employee is telling you , because if you don't , this is going to show back up on you , and so that's how I look at things .
Speaker 2So it's interesting , having not done a pure labor role . I worked in a lot of different labor spaces but I never had that accountability for labor . When employees came to me arguing or fussing about their manager , my first response is well , what did the leader say when you told them that you disagreed ? And more often than not I found people were not trying to have that smoke , they weren't trying to have those hard conversations and so I would say .
Speaker 2I would add to that like , yeah , like one . Own your career , but also I said it before own your conflict . Know when you need to have a conflict . That's going to better the relationship so that you can teach people how to treat you .
Speaker 1I'll tell you a book that I have had to pull off the shelf because it has some good templates to follow Crucial Conversation . You know that's my favorite . I've had to pull that off the shelf when I've had to , as a manager , do performance discussions because part of it was I needed to be direct , I needed to be assertive , and I did not want to hurt the person's feelings . I did not want to be come across or be viewed as disrespectful or anything like that , and so I needed something to help guide me through those conversations . That book and even when you Google online , I think you can find some templates and things like that has been helpful to me to help me write out an actual script or talking points for having those types of as we call , hard conversations . So I would encourage people to buy that book , to read it , peruse it , focus in on the templates .
Speaker 2And practice . I would say practice right . So .
Speaker 1I did that . I actually did that once . I practiced it .
Speaker 2Having conflicts . You shouldn't be trying to master conflict . While you're in a conflict , you should try to figure out and determine and outline okay , what are some previous conflicts I've had , what would I've done , and maybe even find somebody to role play with , like all right now . This is the kind of person they are . I need you to respond like this so that I know how to respond appropriately in the moment and keep my cool , because it's like riding a bike it's gonna look ugly at first , but after you get it it'll be smooth sailing .
Speaker 1But you got to start with the pedaling and putting your feet on the pedals and trying to at least engage in the conflict until you get your muscle up the other thing , too , that I hope people can be , hope people can be perhaps receptive or accommodating to , is to realize that people will have reactions , and sometimes those reactions won't be pleasant . And as long as they're not violent or threatening or harmful in some way , sometimes you have to allow the person to have the reaction right . One of the things that I think I learned and I don't , and it may have been a part of the Crucial Conversations type of teachings or something with performance management , I believe , along the years you know where a person may start here , but they're going to come back around and they may come back and tell you hey , you know I apologize or I didn't mean to come across that way , I was frustrated . They'll help , you know , explain to you why they responded to the way that they did , so that you too can then go off and fix those things .
Speaker 1Now again , you don't have to subject yourself to people's poor behavior either . So you know , just again , as long as it's not harmful , it's not violent or life-threatening in any way , if you can tolerate that you know once , I hope then give them the space to have that reaction , because you know someone may cuss you out at work , someone may say something you don't like . They may throw shade , as they say . They may read you , as they say , they may stand on business . I hope their business is fine when they're standing , but you know in that moment , you know as long as you know again , it's not harming you or hurting you and you guys can come back and have , hopefully , a reasonable conversation Because at the end of the day , remember , this is people's livelihood and their well-being , and I'm not quick to snatch that from somebody because there's others that are probably dependent on that .
Speaker 1Again , I grew up in a blue-collar town in a union family . I was dependent on my grandparents and my mom and all them going to work every day . I know that's right and I've reaped the benefits of them . You know having to deal with some tough , terrible management situations .
Speaker 2I know that's right . I'm a Teamsters baby myself .
Speaker 1Teamsters local 830 from .
Speaker 2Philadelphia . Yes , sir , well , that is all our time . You understand , he's just local . You understand ? 830 from Philadelphia . Yes , sir , well , that is all our time . Devon , it has been absolutely a pleasure to have you on the pod . Thank you , appreciate you , appreciate you , listen . We hope you've enjoyed this Tune in next time and we're excited to have you like , share and follow . Also , check us out on your website . We want to hear your stories , just like Elise . Thanks , elise J , again from Miami , for sharing your story . And remember , don't let your boss suck the life out of you . Today's episode is brought to you by Natalie Parker Enterprises , where we shape the future and unlock potential by helping organizations and people work together to do good work . Find out more at thenatalieparkercom or , if you'd like to be a sponsor , email us at info at thenatalieparkercom .
