So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
Bad bosses happen to good people. Join entrepreneur, corporate trailblazer-turned-business strategist, and podcast host Natalie Parker as she unpacks real-life stories of tough leaders and toxic work environments. With Natalie’s expertise in navigating corporate chaos and building strategies for success, this podcast offers practical advice and actionable insights to help you turn workplace challenges into opportunities for growth. Whether you’re dealing with micromanagers, toxic cultures, or just plain bad vibes, this is your go-to guide for taking control, thriving, and proving that when your boss sucks, your success doesn’t have to.
So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
S2 E5 Iron Sharpens Iron: The Necessary Friction of Great Leadership featuring Ayana Coston Part 2
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Natalie Parker and leadership coach Ayana Coston dive into what happens behind the scenes when organizations call in executive coaches to help struggling leaders develop or correct performance issues.
• Most leaders lack fundamental leadership skills despite technical expertise
• Leadership effectiveness rarely measured in performance management
• Leaders need safe spaces to be heard without judgment
• Employees betraying themselves by not asking for what they need
• Cultural differences dramatically impact conflict management styles
• 95% of the time, the feared conversation is worse in your head than reality
• Giving feedback requires psychological safety on both sides
• Leaders being monitored/evaluated on keystroke counts rather than outcomes
• Understanding before action when addressing leadership issues
• Clear communication about values and expectations prevents misalignment
If you're working for a leader who isn't supporting you properly, have the conversation about what you need, document your approach, and be willing to make changes if the environment doesn't improve. Remember that your value isn't determined by one workplace.
Don't let your boss suck the life out of you.
Share your bad boss story on our website.
Learn more or Book Natalie.
Welcome and Introduction
Speaker 1Hey , it's me again , Natalie Parker , your host of . So your Boss Sucks , now what ? And I'm excited , and you know I'm always excited . I'm excited because I'm back here with my homie , my homegirl , Ayanna Koston , and today we're going to be talking about coaching leaders . So this episode is about bosses who either work for bad leaders or they're a bad leader themselves , and we're going to talk about and dish on you know , as coaches , what we do , what we see , some of the themes and motifs .
Speaker 1So if you're an employee , you're still going to want to listen . You're still going to want to listen to this because we're going to take you behind the curtain of some things that you may not know going on . When someone says your leader has a coach , that's kind of what they mean . They've called us as , like the lifeline , the call for help , or even just to help your leaders develop . You're going to want to know what happens behind the curtain . So stay tuned because we're about to talk to my friend , ayana Costin Remember her link is going to be in the show notes . Make sure to check out her LinkedIn and all of the things and let's get started .
Speaker 2Ayanna , we're back . Thank you for having me back . I love these conversations , but I really love them with you as my friend , as my fellow HROD coach , so I'm glad to be here .
Speaker 1I appreciate it . I appreciate it . We're going to have some full range shenanigans .
Coaching Leaders: Taking You Behind the Curtain
Speaker 2All right , so you are a coach Now . You've been coaching now on your own , for the better part of Four and a half years . June makes five years . I'm completely solo , but I've been coaching part-time since 2010 . So it's my 15th year of coaching .
Speaker 1Yes , ma'am , yes , ma'am , I remember that year . All right , so short story . I took a package from a company and the whole point was like I'm going to go and I'm going to start my own business , and I was excited , and I was too , for you . You were pregnant with my ideas . So what happened was I took the package in February and then , like two weeks later , I announced I had a new job and I was angry .
Speaker 2She called and cussed me out y'all .
Speaker 1She really did . It was like what in the world , how could you do ?
Speaker 2this to us . No , I was legitimately angry because I saw your potential . I saw your capacity and I also needed to see through you as my big sister , but little sister , same age sister , that you could do it . I really feel I was probably angry because you were my hope .
Speaker 1And I didn't know that at the time .
Speaker 2No , I remember saying how dare you ?
Speaker 1How dare you take a job , listen listen , I needed to eat and I had no plan because , like we have faith .
Speaker 2We had . No , I have a plan .
Speaker 1Listen , faith without work is dead listen , I had no plan and thank god I had the maturity to know that I had ideas , but I had no plan of fruition but you need that balance .
Speaker 1you need the crazy one and the practical one , and I thank God that I was able to learn that I was not ready , because now , at the age I am , the business is about to have another birthday . Shout out to Natalie Parker Enterprises , where we help organizations , have healthy relationships , and we're about to have another birthday . What birthday ? It'll be the third this year , so just a few months away from third birthday of the company . It's been amazing and I'm much more in a different place now being an entrepreneur than I would have been 15 years ago .
Speaker 2I remember the company you love . I remember the company you're going to work for and I remember how angry I was . I was like but we had plans to be entrepreneurs .
Speaker 1You said how could you do this to us ?
Speaker 2Maybe give or take , but but I'm so proud of us to look where we are and I think some of it could be the result of the choices we made because of who we worked for and what we needed for ourselves , and look at , look at God , look at where we are today .
Speaker 1Yes , we are all different people , so , listen , we're going to talk about coaching leaders . Yes , so you , you found your entree into coaching leaders and you have worked with a variety of industries and organizations . I would say thematically , what's the thing you say that most leaders are in need of when it comes to I don't want to say autocorrect , because there's no autocorrect , but like course correction in their leadership style ? What's the thing that they're most in need of ? Like thematically , over your 15 years ? What's the thing that they're most in need of ? Like thematically over your 15 years ?
Speaker 2what's the thing that you see consistently ? Well , it's two parts . It's a listening voice where they're truly heard and not judged . And you know , right now , the whole social media thing is we listen and we don't judge . I really feel that , first of all , leaders are in need of that , because they store so much in their brain and are just behaving in the way that they think the culture wants them to . So they need us , as executive and leadership coaches , to truly listen and to not judge .
Speaker 1And have a safe space to be like listen .
Speaker 2And that's foundational .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2Because I think for so long they'd held it in because they've been trying to play the game . They don't want to take it to their families . They don't want to take it to their friends because their friends are sick of being free therapists . They may not have a therapist , dependent on if they can afford it or what communities think about therapy , so they just need that . That's the foundation . I think the theme that I'm hearing the most is I don't have enough skill to do this leadership thing . None of them come to me saying I'm not a good engineer , I'm not a good scientist , I'm not a good fill in the technical word . I don't even know what it means to be a leader , and so I feel so blessed to coach in that space because I happen to love leadership development because of what I've been through , and so I can mix that with the use of really getting curious and asking what you want as your coach .
Speaker 1Well , I think that's a pause for all of the folks out listening . Is that give your leaders grace and I say this often is that most of them have not had copious amounts of exposure , training and coaching on how to lead . Even if they got a training you said copious , or any amounts , any amounts , right , but I mean , think about it . Like you learned how to ride a bike , you learned how to type . Most of us who don't type like this anymore , right , We've learned things by learning from others .
Speaker 1But , leadership is something that many of us learn by watching , but until you're in the seat , you don't know how to do it , and many of us suffer because our leaders never got the space to have someone coach them on how to lead .
Speaker 2Because they were super employees that did really good in their job , that became supervisors Again back when now we use the term leadership . It's so fancy , but you used to have a boss , you used to have a supervisor , and then you had a manager and then you had a director . So we just became a good employee doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be good at managing personalities , people and other work .
Speaker 1Right , and I would also say that I find from a performance management space , so that's a space that I love is that most companies don't assess your performance as a manager , as a leader right , they assess your numbers , they assess your outcomes , but they're not assessing on these leadership qualities . How well did you do on developing your team ? How well did you do on creating the next generation of leaders ? How well do you do ? And what you measure gets done , yeah , and so that gap for me is also a big thing , where I'm like come on , y'all do better .
Speaker 2So why do you think they're not doing it ? Why do you think leaders are not writing down or putting expectation and measurements in place for what they expect ?
Speaker 1One . I think the term leadership is so obtuse . There's no standard definition everywhere , right , so it's contextual , it's situational If you went to Djibouti right now , because I guess we said that last episode , right , right ,
Entrepreneurship Journeys and Leadership Challenges
Speaker 1culturally they're doing a different definition and so there's no standard definition . That's number one .
Speaker 2We're not going to talk about leadership in America on this episode , but keep going .
Speaker 1Well , I mean , it's an episode about leadership . And I think it's also subjective in many ways , and so there are very few companies that have a good definition of what leadership is . Yes , that's number one . Number two is I'd also say that everyone thinks they can do it . Every like . You and I would not go and assess America's top model .
Speaker 2Cause one we ain't going to do this and we don't know how many donuts model , but anyway .
Speaker 1But I mean , but I don't even know what the scoring is like what a good walk is right , but many cases you have people who are reporting to people who are leaders themselves and they don't know how to assess it right , so we have people who are ill-equipped to assess in the position in the first place .
Speaker 2But let me push back a little bit and say yes , and a lot of people who think that they can't because I coach them too would be the best leaders . But somewhere in society or the culture of these organizations they've been told that they can't . So some of the best leaders that I would love to see lead are afraid to and don't and won't .
Speaker 1I like that .
Speaker 2And I don't disagree with that .
Speaker 1But I'll tell you this Everyone has an opinion about leadership , right , and so , if you think about it , we are in the age of opinion , where everyone thinks their opinion matters . Newsflash it doesn't . It doesn't , your opinion matters in certain segment where people care . Not everybody cares .
Speaker 2I love you .
Speaker 1Put it in the comments , tell it to the rain , but at the end of the day , not every opinion matters and they don't all matter equally , and so , when you think about it , everyone has a Monday morning quarterback . John Madden situation on what a leader should or should not do , and you don't know until you're in that seat .
Speaker 1So you're flat out in it , faced in the middle of the field , you don't know , but we know how it makes us feel , but that doesn't mean we know how to do it , because you don't know what's coming from the top the side around and there's no blueprint .
Speaker 2Let's face it there's not one book .
Speaker 1There's a million leadership books all over the show .
Speaker 2Jesus was a good leader , jesus was probably the best right , and Jesus was a servant leader too . So when we really look at it like that , it's not the typical definition that you're not going into organizations where they're like let me bow and wash your feet and be the leader for you , because I'm the boss , I'm in charge , you do for me .
Speaker 1All right , I wasn't going to make this about Jesus , but let me tell you so , as a person of faith , I will live my entire intersectionality and say this . One of the things that I often tell my husband , who's a pastor , is the reason why Jesus was the dope leader is because he walked with the people .
Speaker 2With , and that's what coaches do . They walk with you , right Besides you . They don't have to know nothing about you , but they're going to walk with you , not in front of you , and not behind you and that makes a difference , right ?
Speaker 1So if you're swooping in and leaving and then coming back and barking orders , like we talked about earlier , right , it's not leadership . You are setting some level of direction , but that's not necessarily and you have to have a clear vision .
Speaker 2Right , and I think a lot of people call themselves leader , but they can't lead themselves out of a paper bag or a box or out their own front doors , which they know where the door is . So leaders have to have a compelling vision . That's the whole Kuhn's and Posner's for those who are in a theory or who- . The leadership challenge . What is your compelling vision ? That I will follow you , because that's the biggest part of leadership , not management .
Speaker 1Yeah , If you're watching this on YouTube or if you were on the Facebook page , we'll put it out there . I want to know what are some of the things that you think good leadership is right . I'd be interested to hear from you all what leadership is to you . So if you're on YouTube , go ahead and put it in the comments . I'd be interested to hear . So leadership as a definition , we don't have one . A lot of people who don't want to lead . You feel like they should lead . What are some other things that you're seeing from a coaching context that you wish people knew ?
Speaker 2I wish people knew how difficult leadership is and how much of a privilege it is . And I'm going to start from the clients that I coach that may be having some difficulty with who they report into . They may even be leaders themselves . A lot of my coach mostly C-suite individuals are leaders of other leaders . So I think what I wish people knew is that leadership is hard , but it's also privilege . It's hard because there's no playbook , and it's also hard , Natalie , because I don't always think we get good feedback until we do something wrong . So when you're leading and things are well , no one says anything to you . But the minute you misspoke or judge someone the wrong way or ask someone to do something , it's like the world falls and you get demotivated and discouraged and almost like shut down .
Speaker 1I
What Leaders Need Most
Speaker 1like what you said about not getting feedback , but I'd also be interested , right , how many of your leaders actually get feedback from their employee base ? Right ? Because what I've leaders actually get feedback from their employee base . Right , because what I've found is , when you're in these leadership spaces , the people that are reporting to you I won't say subordinates , because I hate that word , but we're reporting to you legit . We'll just stop talking to you .
Speaker 1Like it becomes like radio silence right , Like once last time , you gave your leader good feedback like , oh , John , I really appreciate how you did this and this was great , or hey , good job in the meeting . And here's why I've done it before . And you know , I think some of the leaders thought I was being condescending . I'm like no , I really think you did a great job , so you got to be authentic with it . But , like , leaders need encouragement no-transcript .
Speaker 2We were on a call and something had happened and I said I have to give this person feedback and I did . But what made it safe for me is I know the person . They know the amount of love and care that I have for our work and the respect I have for them . So most people don't give feedback because it's not psychologically safe , it's not emotionally safe . So when I think about this and you know my brother Khalid , you'll know exactly who it is I talked to you .
Speaker 2Something happened in a meeting . I noticed it wasn't overly negative , but I asked a question about do you think people weren't answering because you were doing this ? And it was a stacking question and I wasn't sure if he thought people weren't asking because they didn't have anything to say . I said I wasn't asking because I didn't know which question to start with , because I was stuck on the last one and a few came . So we were on the phone and after everybody got off I said do you have a quick minute ? I wanted to give you some feedback , are you open ? I said do you have a quick minute ? I wanted to give you some feedback , are you open ? He said yes , it was beautiful . We talked and in the feedback I laughed and said hello , kettle , this is pot . I do this so often that I recognized it because I'm working on it , which was true . I'm saying that to say we're not getting feedback in our organizations because , as leaders , are we making it safe for people to tell us where we're actually going to listen ?
Speaker 1even if we don't agree . Well , I think that's important because you have to give people one the benefit of the doubt that , even if they don't deliver it well , that they're delivering it with the intention of communicating something that's necessary . You get to choose whether or not you take it or leave it . Fish and bones right it's like a buffet right . And if you make it safe for them to say what they feel like saying , you can work through how it's said to you or how you might've heard it differently , or litmus tested with other people that you trust better to come back and say I heard what you said , that's not what I intended and I understand how you felt .
Speaker 2So after 20 something years of doing some type of HR leadership , coaching work , I think I have like the billion dollar solution to fix this and I want to get paid for it . So you know , when this podcast blow up , holler at me , but it's we have . Feedback has to become a part of the culture , and so normal and so necessary that it's often what we would call in the business world after action review what worked well , what didn't work so well , what could make it more innovative . So then it's not scary and threatening .
Speaker 1I think it has to be a part of it . But here's the deal One . Many people are in hyperdrive when it comes to the organization . You just don't get time .
Speaker 2You just have to act , act , act , act act , act .
Speaker 1You don't , and I don't know that our organizations value the time it takes to sit they don't know that our organizations value the time it takes to sit and think .
Speaker 2So screw the organizations and do it for yourself , because , see , that's also a misnomer . The organization has to prove it . What if we just gifted ourselves that ?
Speaker 1I agree , and you , as a leader , can make time . And there's the pressure .
Speaker 2You can tell I don't work in corporate America , no more , I work for myself . Listen , listen listen .
Speaker 1You know what's funny , though . I will honestly tell you this . So I was designing a performance management system for an organization and they were like Natalie , this is really great . I love what you're saying . It's a room full of HR people and they were like on fire , hungry and excited about what we were saying .
Speaker 1And then their next response was , yeah , but they're not going to do this on the floor because they just don't have enough time . And I was like , okay , so you'd mean to tell me that if a leader was in his team , was damaging product over and over again , you would actually take them off the floor , you would train them , take time and make sure they knew how to do it ? Right , of course , because that productivity is expensive , right ? Damaging the product is expensive . It's going to move them up , yep , right , and you know . And so they were like yeah , I said so . Tell me then how , if your people are your most important asset , that leaders out here damaging the people aren't more important to be able to take off the floor and go ahead and make sure that they have what they need so that they're coaching them appropriately and giving them feedback and engaging your workforce .
Speaker 1If it's more important and it's more expensive to replace a person than a product , tell me how . That's not the . So you're a little passionate about this . I was hot because I was like there's a room full of people who are like you , are the disciples of , like this is the thing we do , and you gave me the business response .
Speaker 2if they don't have time . But that shows you that people don't see it with the same value , because they only see it oh , if you mess up , I'll pull you off the floor . They're not thinking . We're just not thinking proactively in organizations and we're making an excuse that we don't have time .
Speaker 1We have to make the time . I agree , Agreed . So let's go back to the leaders that you coach . C-suite that may have that may have leaders that they report to that are less than seller Cause . Let's be clear y'all like you may be like an individual contributor and have a sucky boss , but I promise you , up and down the chain people have sucky bosses . Yes , seriously , such to the point that sometimes we get called in to coach them on how to deal with the suckiness .
Speaker 2All the time we get called in . So I'm going to say that sometimes leadership is a ripple effect Good , bad or indifferent . Sometimes , if you have a horrible boss , you may become a better boss yourself . Sometimes , if you have a horrible boss , you keep the generational curse of being horrible going . But I think , if I'm really looking at
Why Organizations Don't Measure Leadership Well
Speaker 2what are my executives struggling with that may have their own hard boss themselves . I'm going to give some real examples and say I had a situation recently where I have a person who is a leader and this person has a leader . Their boss is not bad in terms of you would think , mean or nasty or good . It's almost the opposite . This particular person that I was working with recently has a boss who's just very personal and not focused on work at all . Okay , so she's in a position reporting to a boss who is not developing her , who's not helping her to learn , but it's very nice , very sweet but also very personal .
Speaker 1Personal , like she gets in her business .
Speaker 2They want to tell their business to their employee , oh , like .
Speaker 1so the executive is like oh yeah , so yesterday I was getting my nails done at the blah blah blah .
Speaker 2So they're telling all of their personal business .
Speaker 1It's about them , so their relationship is about them .
Speaker 2And some of it is sad business and personal business . So the employee , who's also a leader , feels sad because she has empathy for this person and she doesn't want to be rude and say I don't want to hear anymore . Your personal business , how do I develop ? And so here's what we coach through , and this is why it's so important for y'all to think about who you are as a person and what you want .
Speaker 2As I'm getting to know my coaching client , I'm realizing she's so nice and she's so sweet , but so was her boss . He's so nice and he's so sweet . Her boss had almost no indication that this even bothered her , because every time he comes to her she openly embraces it . So to me , she's telling me one thing like the boss isn't that great . So one of the coaching questions that we ask as coaches is what does the person know about how you feel ? How much do they know ? Not do they know , cause that's a closed in question yes or no ? How much do you think the person knows about how you feel ? And it was a pregnant pause and the response was well , I don't want to hurt their feelings . I didn't ask you anything about their feelings . I'm curious how much do they ?
Speaker 1know . You know , what's interesting I say this often too is that we feel betrayed when people are mean to us . We feel betrayed when people don't meet our expectations , but we more betray ourselves when we don't advocate for what we need in a relationship .
Speaker 1You betray yourself when you don't are so many deep roots . Listen , um , there's a guy named Jerry Harvey who wrote a book . He wrote the road to Abilene . You're familiar with that , where we all go together , but we really never wanted to go in the first place . Google it , it's great , um , but we really never wanted to go in the first place . Google it , it's great . But then there's also he wrote this book called how Come Every Time I Stab , I Find a ? No , how Come Every Time I Find a Knife in my Back ? My Fingerprints Are on the .
Speaker 2Knife On the knife .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , how Come I Get Stabbed Every time I get stabbed in the back ?
Speaker 2my fingerprints are on the knife .
Speaker 1And the premise of this book is that listen when people are terrible to you and you know the terribleness is happening and you don't call it out . You are a culprit to your own demise .
Speaker 2Exactly , and that's what I want people to understand . It's not always the bad leaders and what we think like they're being rude or they're being mean . This person isn't getting what they need from their leader . But they're also coming to coaching to say but I don't know how to . So one of the things that we do in coaching is sometime in alignment meeting where I meet with you as the client and your boss to say are we in alignment on what the goal of coaching is ? We're not going to tell you everything we talk about .
Speaker 2So I challenged this particular client to ask their boss for what they need , and it was a bit of nervousness at first . They were like well , what do you mean I should ask . I said , well , you said you're not sure if they know . So they did Right then , and there I was so proud of them . And they said I would like more structured feedback . I want more feedback about when I'm doing something wrong . And the boss instantly opened up and literally said something on the facts of yeah , I have been talking all personal things . Okay , I can do that , and it was that simple and that easy . However , comma , I interjected and said what would it look like if we just called it feedback , not just bad , because sometimes you're not getting any feedback because you're doing such a wonderful job . So then we made this agreement to say we're just going to do more feedback . And then they said I want to start with the business stuff to see what was happening . They were getting hijacked with the other stuff and then his time is out . Do you have any work ? Things In the last 30 seconds .
Speaker 2Really interesting too , that that person , then the leader , the executive , gave feedback to the person right at the end of the meeting about something that they could do different and better . Person accepted it , talked a little bit about why they behaved and then , when the leader hung up , the person said I'm so sorry , ayanna . I said for what ? I just lost my composure . I was so defensive , I just didn't handle this well . And I looked and I said I didn't see that . I saw a very well-composed , put together person who said thank you . I was more distraught , as the coach and I'm supposed to have management , that they did it in the way that they did it , but I didn't get anything from you except a smile , right ? What's the moral of the story ? The moral is sometimes the fight we have is in our head Fully and the conversation's in your head . So what requests do we make of leaders ? It's our job to sometimes make a better leader by asking them for what we need and just stop it .
Speaker 1But I think that goes for any relationship . You can't be mad at anyone for expectations you have not articulated nor asked for it , because you can articulate it .
Speaker 2But it's another thing to ask . I can articulate I'm angry and I'm frustrated , but then I have to ask could you stop leaving your sock on the floor or the cabinets open ?
Speaker 1Listen Fair , but I think at the end of the day , it's .
Speaker 2I have an expectation . This is my expectation of you . Can you meet it or not ? Because if they say listen and if you don't leave because I'm the queen of leaving no , no , no , don't do that she's going to tell you to quit . No , no , no , don't do that , because that's another episode , don't leave .
Speaker 1I'm saying working out , but I think , and it's okay if they say yes and they , but either way , when someone shows you who they are , maya .
Speaker 2Angelou said believe them and believe them the first time . And believe them the first time .
Speaker 1But then be okay with the fact that , like you know what this is just not something you can do , and don't hold them hostage to the expectation anymore , because now you're just you know . Fool me once , shame on you . Fool me twice , shame on me Right .
Speaker 1It's acceptance too , because with that comes I did ask and I have to accept . So now how do I work around that ? By accepting it , just knowing that they're not able or willing , or both Right . So we were having a conversation , so we are here on set and it's a wonderful time . We're talking to a colleague who's here and we asked her the question like what's one thing as a coach you wish everyone knew ?
Speaker 2And the answer was how to deal with and manage conflict .
Speaker 1Now , I said in season one , you have to plan for your conflict . You have to practice conflict before you have it ,
The Missing Element: Safe Spaces for Feedback
Speaker 1map out your pathway and the things that you will or will not do , understand your triggers . But at the end of the day , if you don't learn anything else in a business environment , knowing how to have conflict and manage conflict is probably one of the biggest challenges that we see consistently throughout our careers .
Speaker 2Yeah , and you know what she said . Her name is Krista . She's here with us today . It's kind of like almost like starting at ground zero is kind of what I heard . That I'm constantly having to say , like this is a normal part of it . It's conflict because the people that come to her for the help that they need as a coach or an HR are usually only coming because they're conflict . Not many people are coming because things went well and let's celebrate the big bonuses and the joy that we got together . They're only coming when we hit conflict . But I think you were saying this earlier in one of your other podcasts conflict helps us grow and it actually helps us get to the best side of the relationship , because without it we may not have gotten there .
Speaker 1Listen nothing moves or grows without friction . You said that .
Speaker 2Your car does not move without friction .
Speaker 1A plant does not grow unless it creates friction out of the ground . We all need the friction . One of my favorite scriptures says , as iron sharpens iron so sharpens the one person in another right . But here's the deal Iron making , sword making . As iron sharpens iron , so does the countenance of one man sharpen another . It is really violent . It's a very violent thing . If you've ever seen somebody make a sword , it is a violent thing .
Speaker 2It sounds violent too .
Speaker 1Thousands of degrees in heat , you pull it out and then you take another piece of metal and you hammer it over and over again to shape it and mold it To what you want it to be and to make it sharp , exactly . And I think that when it comes to conflict , we shy away from it . I , on the other hand , when I first started my career , I was winning Guns blazing . Oh my gosh .
Speaker 2You know , it's that whole theory . I don't know who made it . Moving away , moving towards and moving against . I was like come on , I'm coming towards you .
Speaker 1I'm not afraid of no ghosts . I ain't afraid of no ghosts .
Speaker 2I was going into it , but I also think this is an important conversation because a workforce is made of people , culturally , that come from different places . I grew up in a household where I went to church with my great grandmama , but my mama and my grandmom never really stepped foot into a church and they was a cussing family . I thought we was the Navy , because everything was a curse word and everything was a fight . It was normal and it was natural to fight and then go have ice cream . Other people might grow up in families where conflict is the worst thing ever and you don't address it . So think about all that and the compassion we need to have that all of these different people and all the different ways we were brought are now in one environment with no guidebook , and now some people are passive , aggressive to conflict . Some people are like we were in our twenties boom , let's go .
Speaker 2Cause it was fun . It wasn't even a bad thing .
Speaker 1No , I'm just going'm gonna . I thought I was gonna be a lawyer . Listen me too , guns blazing exactly like I will . I will argue you down with all of the facts very quickly , make my point and then leave you bleeding .
Speaker 2And I didn't know I cut you and I would cuss you out without ever cussing , and smile and people say what just happened to me exactly and I think one thing that I found is um working with some other clients as well , is that the cultural differences right .
Speaker 1I have folks that work in different countries and they're like oh my . God , they're so loud . Or oh my God , they won't say what they mean , but they'll say it to everybody else . Or oh my gosh , they're so aggressive . All of these things matter and it's important for us to figure that out . So you've been coaching now for 15 years .
Speaker 2But I'm only 12 . No , I'm just joking . I've been coaching for 15 years and loving it .
Speaker 1One of the things that's always interesting to me is when we're called in to coach a performance issue that the leader who hired you doesn't want to fix themselves . This does happen .
Speaker 2And the coach is magically supposed to fix it .
Speaker 1Well , bob isn't producing or Bob doesn't know that everybody hates the way he engages with them and they haven't given him the feedback . And the coach is brought in to do a 360 and an assessment and all of these other things , because don't nobody want to talk to Bob .
Speaker 2And oh , by the way , if it doesn't work , ayana , tell us so that we can get rid of Bob and I have to say whoa , time out . So the recovering HR part of me knows that we're not going to do that in HR .
Speaker 1Part of me knows that we're not going to do that .
Speaker 2You're also spending a lot of money just to get rid of someone .
Speaker 2And we don't want to look like the assassins . We do not , and I will never be , even in HR . And so I think coaching is such a beautiful thing because , yes , you brought me into Coach Bob , but 90% of the time I say , well , can I offer you some coaching ? What do you know about it ? Would you mind starting here ? Or I just naturally start to coach , to ask them some of the questions before I even go , and one of my favorite questions is what have you already shared ? Not what do you think they know . What have you already shared ?
Speaker 2And the stories are hilarious because it's a lot of beating around the bush . They haven't said anything , but they think we should explicitly know . So that's , I just think that that's a big part of it . So I think coaching them to help them understand what it is and what it's not , and for us to hold our integrity and ethics as certified coaches is to say this is not a part of what I'm able to do . This is what I'd like you to do . This is what I can offer . That's the hardest and the funniest part , because people don't want to be the bad police . They want us to do it for a lot of money too , y'all . People don't want to be the bad police , they want us to do it for a lot of money too .
Speaker 1Y'all Facts Not cheap , not cheap , not cheap .
Speaker 2It's letter time . It's letter time , let's do .
Speaker 1Letter time let's hear a letter , it's mail time . This letter is from Jennifer , marketing coordinator for Malls in Texas . Dear Say your Boss , sex
Coaching Leaders with Poor Bosses Themselves
Speaker 1. I need help .
Speaker 1My manager , dave , has taken micromanagement to an insane level . Our company rolled out tracking software to monitor remote employees and I now get messages every hour questioning why my activity dropped . If I stepped away to take a bathroom break or read a report without moving my mouse , I get an email asking what I'm doing . Last Monday I was on a 45-minute strategy call engaging in an actual discussion about a major client project . After the meeting , my boss asked why my keystroke count was low during the time . He didn't care that I had actually been actively contributing ideas . He just saw that I wasn't typing , so I must not have been working . I understand the need for accountability , but I feel like I'm being treated as a machine instead of a marketer . The constant monitoring makes me feel like I moved into a digital prison and it's causing me stress . I'm getting my work done , but it doesn't seem to matter unless I'm clicking the mouse nonstop . How do I get my boss to trust that I'm actually working without having to put on a performance ?
Speaker 2sincerely tired of being you better answer first , because I am the queen of quitting and have some questions , but I'm not gonna start there . I really want to help . What's her first name ? Oh , oh . Jennifer , sorry , jennifer okay , I really want to help Jennifer , so I'm not going to go with she's going to tell you to quit .
Speaker 1It's going to end . No , I'm not . I'm really not . But do you want to start first ? You want my opinion ? You're going to tell her to quit . It's going to end , we're going to talk about all the opportunities ?
Speaker 2I'm really not , but do you want to start first or you want my opinion ?
Speaker 1You're going to tell her to quit , but go ahead . No , I'm not , I'm not .
Speaker 2What I'm going to coach you through . When it comes to maybe your boss stopping is to earlier what we talked about . Sometimes it's a system thing , so I want to go to understanding before I go to action . So I want to ask my boss a question Like how did we come up with this thing ? Like I kind of understand , like remote workers , it started during COVID .
Speaker 1I didn't know they were doing keystroke stuff until- .
Speaker 2I understand , but I want to ask like what their opinion of it is .
Speaker 2No , even what their opinion . That's a more powerful question , because , as a leader , what people don't see , that you and I get to see , is sometimes we don't believe in it . But I have to push it down because it was pushed to me . So I'm taking all other things aside and trying to get the lead to know the leader as a human and saying what is your whole thoughts about this ? Because what we usually don't know as employees is oh , our boss just sucks . They made us do it , but they could be really under pressure but also trying to keep their job .
Speaker 2So I start with the human level of understanding . What is your view of this and how do you feel about it ? And then I would share almost everything you shared with us in that letter to explain that for me , my productivity isn't a keystroke . I can be less productive with more keystrokes and get nothing done , but I like to be present when my strategy calls and take handwritten notes and look directly in the camera . So I feel I'm being unfairly treated for this . Is there any way we could work around this so that you understand ? But I always start with understanding of where they come from , what they believe , and then clearly articulating my case before I get to quitting .
Speaker 1So I'd also ask , right , if we're doing the keystroke thing , is there an expectation of how many keystrokes I'm supposed to have per minute ?
Speaker 2it's ridiculous , it's actually crazy .
Speaker 1Um , I wouldn't want to work there , jennifer I'll be honest like look who's talking . I know I'm talking about my value system . Keep your job . You cannot live with me .
Speaker 2But what I will say is that so I'm coming over , she can't . She can't because she can cook but no , listen .
Speaker 1So I ask the leader , what if any expectation of metrics that he's got to produce to someone else ? If the answer is none , that is a you and him problem . That's good , that's really good . If there's no metric that he's got to give to somebody else , then it's a problem between you and him . And then you have to say , okay , based on this behavior , this day , you did this . This day , you did , did that this day , you did this I can't help but think that you don't trust me , right , and that you're owning what you think . You're not accusing him of not trusting you Because you said the word I Right , I can't help but think that you don't trust me . Is that your intention , or ?
Speaker 2I feel blank when this is happening . I feel blank because it's not like I'm blaming him Right .
Speaker 1And so you get to that point and you start to flesh out why is it important to you , like what's important to you about keystrokes . When I was hired for this job , I thought it would be this Exactly . Now it seems like this is important , so should I focus on this and not that ?
Speaker 2That's a deep question and I want to say who hurt you , dave ? But I'm trying to be thoughtful , because if it's a Dave thing , it's like who hurt you ? That made you do this , but if it's not , and it's being pushed down because of some other mandates , it's so important for us as employees of all levels whether we manage people or not to understand the business . See , we can be really good at our job as a marketer . We can be really good as our job as a business development specialist . You need to be really good at understanding the culture that you're in and , as it shifts , understanding those shifts , because when you started they weren't doing that , but now that they are understanding why , it goes back to the heart of what we've been talking about is our value system . I value honesty and I value fairness . I also value good products of work . So if I'm constantly typing , you're going to get the worst product out of me . So it all starts with the discussion , but I do want to know who hurt Dave .
Speaker 1Who hurt you , dave , who hurt you ? All right . So what we'd say is this listen , have a honest conversation . We recommend I don't know about you , but I recommend writing the conversation out what are the points that you want to articulate so that you can be clear headed , even talk to some other people to get some potential responses , so that you can be ready to have a dialogue , but understand what's important to the job right now . Be willing to pivot If he says I want you stroking keys , girl , go get you one of them . Little things , they sell them on the internet . Willing to pivot If he says I want you stroking keys , girl , go get you one of them little things , they sell them on the internet . I'm going to tell you what .
Speaker 2But they- or go get you a new job .
Speaker 1Or get you a new job , but until you can go , get the little thing that keystrokes for you , because apparently John Bezos and Amazon sell everything Exactly . But I would have that conversation .
Speaker 2It all starts with a conversation
The Conflict Avoidance Problem
Speaker 2. It does , and I think we just have to be willing to be accountable to those conversations , which takes us back real quick to conflict . Sometimes those conversations are hard , depending on what your appetite or desire is for dealing with real or perceived conflict , because sometimes what we think is going to be conflict is in our head and when we go forward the person just didn't know and says oh , I can do that for you .
Speaker 1Listen , 95 percent of the time the story in your head is worse than the reality .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I don't have the exact quote . I'll have to find it . We'll put it in a caption later . But George Shaw I think was his name said the biggest problem with communication is the thought that it actually happened . George Bernard Shaw , george Bernard Shaw , or something like that .
Speaker 1Yeah , the biggest single problem , the biggest fallacy of communication is believing that it happened .
Speaker 2Believing that it actually happened . So you communicated in your head , but it never came through your heart and through your mouth , and so you're up here all mad and no one even knows you're mad . So for everybody out here listening whether you're a leader working for a leader who might not be the best leader actually communicate what you're feeling and ask for what you want .
Speaker 1Yeah , all right , ayanna , this has been a great episode . I thoroughly enjoyed it . We're going to have her back . We're going to have her back , but I want to give you just a few minutes to wrap up , tell us some of your thoughts . What do you want to share with the interwebs and the people of ? So your Ball Sucks Now . What problem is .
Speaker 2I don't think she knows we're related , you know , because it's our previous presidents , the first lady , Michelle Obama , Mrs Michelle Obama , with respect , I call you Aunt Shelly and your husband .
Speaker 1Uncle .
Speaker 2Rock , but anyway , the best advice that she gave us many , many years ago was when they go low , we go high , and I subscribe to that most of the time , especially at work . I want you to model and go high regardless . However , I think you've had some shifts .
Speaker 1Nat . Oh yeah , she said if I don't rock with you , I ain't coming , ain't coming .
Speaker 2Now I've been telling y'all to quit and I'm not saying that lightly , I'm not saying be starving and you can't feed your kids and pay your mortgage and buy shoes . But if you don't fool with something , my question is I ain't coming in . Why do y'all keep going back , not recognizing your own value and potential and that maybe you need to find the right cultures that fit for you ? Now I'm not saying quit every quick , as quickly as I did . I'm saying think about it , but find the cultures that fit . And that requires us to do our due diligence and to ask the right questions . That's right .
Speaker 1That's right . All right , that's a wrap . Y'all Listen , like , share and subscribe . We'd love to see you on our Facebook page . On our internet , share your story on our website , yourbossupscom . This is Natalie Parker signing off . And remember don't let your boss suck the life out of you . Bye . Today's episode is brought to you by Natalie Parker Enterprises , where we shape the future and unlock potential by helping organizations and people work together to do good work . Find out more at thenatalieparkercom . Or , if you'd like to be a sponsor , email us at info at thenatalieparkercom .
