So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
Bad bosses happen to good people. Join entrepreneur, corporate trailblazer-turned-business strategist, and podcast host Natalie Parker as she unpacks real-life stories of tough leaders and toxic work environments. With Natalie’s expertise in navigating corporate chaos and building strategies for success, this podcast offers practical advice and actionable insights to help you turn workplace challenges into opportunities for growth. Whether you’re dealing with micromanagers, toxic cultures, or just plain bad vibes, this is your go-to guide for taking control, thriving, and proving that when your boss sucks, your success doesn’t have to.
So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
S2 E1: Your Identity Shouldn't Be a Casualty of Your Career Path featuring Ayana Coston
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What happens when toxic leadership meets talented professionals? In this riveting conversation with executive coach Ayanna Coston, we unpack the painful reality of navigating bad bosses while preserving your authentic self.
Ayana shares her experience with her first corporate boss—a leader who disappeared when things went well but materialized instantly when problems arose. She introduces us to the "throw the rock syndrome," where bosses criticize without providing direction, leaving employees endlessly guessing what success looks like. This experience taught Ayanna to advocate for herself through strategic questioning and maintain her integrity despite challenging circumstances.
The conversation takes a powerful turn as we explore how professionals from marginalized backgrounds often compromise their identities to succeed in corporate environments. From code-switching to changing hairstyles, both hosts share personal stories of the sacrifices made to appear "acceptable" in professional spaces. As Ayana notes, "For years I didn't wear sewing weaves, I didn't wear braids... but it took a toll and damaged my hair." This candid discussion highlights how younger generations are increasingly rejecting these compromises.
We also tackle the declining interest in management positions, with Ayana revealing that 85-90% of her coaching clients express reluctance to pursue leadership roles. This trend signals a significant shift in how professionals view career advancement, challenging organizations to create alternative paths for technical experts who deserve recognition without managing people.
The episode concludes with practical wisdom for anyone struggling with difficult leadership, emphasizing self-knowledge and intentional responses to workplace challenges. As Ayana advises, "Pick battles big enough to matter but small enough to win." Whether you're dealing with a toxic boss or navigating organizational politics, this conversation offers strategies to survive, thrive, and maintain your authentic self along the way.
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Worst Boss Experiences
Speaker 1So when you think about that , what did you learn ? From the situation , because I believe you have to take away something from all of the crazy .
Speaker 2Look to Jesus and read your Bible so that you are equipped with something to go in there too . I'm so serious I'm not even saying that in a bad way I really feel like I got closer to God in that job because I had to say you are not acting like . You were taught Go and seek the word and be kind to other people , and I needed to show up differently . But I also was taught to ask better questions .
Speaker 1I was hey , it's me again , Natalie Parker , and welcome to . So your Boss Sucks . Now what I am excited . I'm excited . So this entire season has been about HR and we've talked to a ton of different people about their perspective , their experience , and I'm excited to have my friend . She is the coach's coach , she's the coach connoisseur , the coach extraordinaire , the one and only Ayanna Koston . Let me tell you about Ayanna . So , when I think about people who are born to do what they do , she is bar none that person , and I would also venture to say she's probably somebody that talks more than me , and so this is about to be a very lively interview . So buckle up your seats and welcome my friend , ayanna .
Speaker 2Coston . Hi Nan , I do talk more than you probably , and faster so thanks for coming on . I can't say I've been looking forward to this , and getting to do it with you makes it special .
Speaker 1So yes , ma'am , yes , ma'am , We've known each other , for I'm not going to say it was we were oldest , we are auntie level now .
Speaker 2I'm at the auntie age and I feel it in my bones . I didn't feel it back in the day .
Speaker 1Okay , okay , I do so I'm excited , I'm excited . So you know the name of the podcast is so your Boss Sucks . Now what I want to first start off by talking about your worst boss experience .
Speaker 2I got to go to my first boss . My first real corporate boss was my absolute worst . It was a nightmare . I probably have real nightmare dreams about it at 22 years old , fresh out of college , green behind the ears , as an HR business partner .
Speaker 1Okay , what made it so bad ?
Speaker 2Where do we begin ? The best way I can put it is the person was just nasty , mean and aggressive . Nasty how ? So ? My very first job . You're coming in , at least for me y'all . I'm expecting the warm and fuzzies I'm expected . This is my first job .
Speaker 2Somebody nurturing you that part Right . They want you to succeed . And I think even furthermore , I had this real weird story , natalie , that they were going to help me do my job and teach me how to do parts of my job Because you're new , because I'm new and I had worked at like a vision place before and had worked for ophthalmologists , so like high schoolish type of jobs . But I thought , oh , corporate , they're going to say I expect this , do this and it's going to be great .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2So whether the person was horrible or my expectations were off no , they were horrible it was because I came in and it was a lot of ambiguity and then everything we did I did I got negative feedback . For this is wrong . This is wrong and I'm okay with feedback . I grew up in a household where we got feedback spankings , beatings and punishments , so it wasn't that I was averse to feedback , it was I was averse to you , didn't give me any direction , and then the feedback you gave was nasty , negative and incorrect .
Speaker 1You know it's interesting . I would imagine you were probably a little bit like me where you were a good student , right , so yeah . So you come to a place where there's a lot of structure . Like you do this assignment , you pass it and you get a grade Absolutely . So then you come into corporate America expecting some level of clear direction and you don't get it .
Speaker 2I wouldn't even take in a little gray direction . This was non-existent and it was fuzzy . And I'm a student that not only wants to A , I want the opportunity for extra credit . Let's just I just did . I went to Catholic school . I was always top of my class in public school . So to come in and I'm in this brand new role and let me preface the role as an HR business partner . We're dealing with conflict every day . We're dealing with bad employees , bad managers . I'm not getting paid enough . I don't like my cubicle because it's brown .
Speaker 2I don't like the contract that I'm on , so we're already dealing with hard things . So this particular leader , they were very aggressive and also very absent and I think sometimes people think of bad bosses as they're in your face being bad . She was bad because she disappeared and she only showed up to say , ayana , you're doing this wrong , which , again , it doesn't bother me that I'm doing it wrong . So I would ask questions way before I was a coach , like , well , what does right look like ? And I wouldn't get a response figure it out . So this is back when I learned that whole throw the rock syndrome .
Speaker 1Oh , yes , I tell this story all the time in coaching and in in speeches , right , right . So if you don't know what throw the rock exercise is , it's basically the Goldilocks of work Someone is going to tell you . So the story goes that , um , a young man went to a sensei and the sensei said find me a rock , right . And he goes and finds the rock and he brings the rock back and he says oh , no , that rock is too small . Go get me another rock . And the young man goes and gets another rock . No , that rock is too big . Third rock that rock is too green . Fourth rock that rock is too blue . And the kid can never catch up for it before he finally stops and says what kind of rock do you want ? Describe it to me , what color is it ? What's the comfort ? What's the origin ? Because you get this Goldilocks of this is too hot , this is too cold , this is too soft , this is too hard .
Speaker 2Right and I'm a pretty direct person , so for me I don't mind that you said it's wrong . But before I was a coach and I knew what coaching was , I said , well , what does good look like ? And the answer that I got was just keep trying , just keep doing it and see I you know , I knew Jesus back in the day , but I don't know him Like I know him now . In my forties I knew Jesus , but in my mind the things that I was going to say , I had my family in the background , like don't go mess up this good government job , even though it was a government contract job .
Speaker 2I had them in my head Don't be you , ayanna because they knew I was the kid that I'm an Aries . I'm a middle child .
Speaker 1You know I'm not even all into the Zodiac , but I'm a little spicy , so I was a person . Let's be very clear we're both Aries and we will both I guess , being from Jersey , that you know being from Philly , like listen we will cut you .
Speaker 2So there were things in my head that I knew not to say because I could hear like , oh my gosh , I'm going to get fired . But then even the things that I did say I think she wasn't used to someone pushing back , so I had a lot of support at the time . I still see those names in my head I won't put too many out just because but I still see the names of the support that helped me , including one of our admins at the time . I won't put her name out . Carolyn was just amazing and she said to me one day it's not you , it's her . Doesn't that make ?
Speaker 1you feel better . I feel like I've had so many people whisper like okay , we know they're crazy but , it's not you and it's like . What's frustrating about that is that most people know it's not the employee , but you have no recourse . But it does make you feel more sane .
Speaker 2But so for me , 22 years old , fresh out of college , first real corporate experience , I'm not knowing what to expect . My saving grace , natalie , was at the time . You know I did the LDP program , and LDP is a leadership development program and it puts you through a rotation for two years of different assignments .
Speaker 1That's every six months .
Speaker 2Every six months to a year , yeah yeah , this assignment was the longest year of my absolute positive life and the thing that made the leader bad . I remember my six month review . Again , the leader was absent , which is what I may have said , but they would only show up when something was a problem . So for all y'all bosses out there that might be bad , it might be struggling . Show up all the time , don't just show up when something is wrong . So all the great things I did never got acknowledged . But the minute that something wasn't written right , wasn't researched right oh , you didn't say the right answer to this situation they would show up literally turning red , with devil horns on the top of their ears , yelling at the top of their . Now they're long .
Speaker 2I grew up in a house with yelling , cussing , screaming and beatings . I didn't think that that came into work . Everything , minus the physical abuse , was there and I may or may not have thought , oh , she got me . You know what up , she got me effed up . This may or may not have been what I was thinking . And so , six months in , I get this review and it was nothing glowing , except she shows up to work . And I knew better than that . I knew that I gave the employees my best . The projects my best . My colleagues gave glowing feedback , but it was her feedback that just went into how negative it was . So I remember I wish I could have found it writing back . You're only as good as your leader is .
Speaker 1You know what's interesting Mic drop . You know it's interesting , mic drop . You know it's interesting because I had that same leader right .
Speaker 2And I didn't realize that . Yeah .
Speaker 1Right , and I remember again fresh out of college you're expecting some level of support , some direction . And I remember the things she said to me when I was like she was upset about something that didn't happen . It was like you didn't do this , this , this and this and this . And I said , well , what would you have me ?
Speaker 2do , because this is what I need to do .
Speaker 1And her response was well , you don't know what you don't know . And I'm like well , I don't know because you didn't tell me . And I think there's a couple of things going on in this scenario . For first , you were dealing with somebody who is staunch negativity bias , right ? So the only ability that they have to see is to examine what's wrong , and most people don't realize how many people have just a bent for the negativity . Right , our brains work in a space where we're always evaluating what could do better , how things could grow better , but there needs to be a balance , right ?
Speaker 1And so if you're , you're castigated with someone who's always like you are terrible from a bad place right , it's , it's . It will make you question your identity .
Speaker 2It would . And you know , just for those that are listening , it wasn't like oh , we just don't like each other , it's a personality thing . It would be I would come in at seven or eight o'clock in the morning , cause I was new in my career and I thought early mattered . I don't think that anymore , sorry , but I would come in at 7.30 or 8 . This boss would come in anywhere between 12.30 to 2.30 , 3 pm .
Speaker 1But it was also the culture . It was also the culture . You were new , she was established and her norm was accepted .
Speaker 2But barely
Throw the Rock Syndrome
Speaker 2established , because I did a little research and found out she was a new leader , and we'll get back to that in a minute about how you can't be upset with your leaders because you don't know what leadership they were modeled . So we'll get back to that . But she would come in 1230 , 132 , 30 PM . So as I'm walking my little happy self out the door at five , she would literally say where are you going ? And I'd say home , to do what ? To go home ? Well , you don't have any kids , ayana , at home .
Speaker 2I said , well , I have a life at home . What about you ? Because again , this was a little bit before . Jesus is in me the way he is today , and so I'm sure that my negative response didn't make it better because I wasn't the most passive and I said I've been here all day . She said , well , I just got here because someone has to do the hard work that needs to be done here and because I didn't leave till 10 or 11 , that's why I'm coming in at two . Why don't you just stay ? I may have stayed once or twice and not after that . So then that just made everything worse because it looked like I was subordinate , which was written up in the review , and this was a time where you could write back in your review and she kept removing it .
Speaker 1Oh , about you being insubordinate right ?
Speaker 2well , no , the insubordinate part was there , but I wrote back my justification and it kept getting deleted , so I really had to escalate it up the HR chain at that time . Wow .
Speaker 1So let me go . I want to go back to the microaggression of you don't have kids , so you can stay longer . Right and so .
Speaker 2As though my reproductive organs had something to do with what time I left work . Oh yeah .
Speaker 1I used to tell people all the time don't talk about my overage at work . They're none of your business , it's not . It's not . I mean , and for those of you who have you know , have this experience male , female or like your personal business is what you do after hours is your business .
Speaker 1It's personal and I don't , and now that I have kids I can still say having had kids late in life . You don't need to have kids as an excuse to leave work right , and that should not be in the discourse . It's funny how many leaders we have to coach on like you can't put the fact that she wants to have kids as a reason why you can't put her on the talent management right or you can't talk about the person's home life as you're hiring them , and she would even say stuff like you just moved here .
Speaker 2What do you do outside of work anyway ? And none of your business . Like I have a life , I may go home and twiddle my fingers , it's none of your business . I've done my 10 hours by that point , because it was more than eight , so it was just the constant questioning and what I noticed is that everyone around her made her feel like she was doing an okay job and that was probably more baffling than the boss relationship itself . It's like no one notices or no one's going to say anything , maybe behind closed doors , but to her people were very friendly , so very cordial .
Speaker 1I don't know about you , but I honestly think that in many cases management is a fraternity Mm Right , where you know it's the Dukes of Hazzard , just a good old boy . Yes , yes , never meaning no harm Right Because meanin' no harm right , Because , like you , may be slack , but I ain't saying nothing because I don't want you saying nothing about my slackness . And we allow people .
Speaker 2We're the culprits of mediocrity because we don't call it out yes and or fear because your title is higher than mine . What decision will you make ? You know behind closed doors , because your title is higher than mine what decision will you make behind closed doors ?
Speaker 1because your title happened to be a director at that time . I don't know who you're connected to , because that was part of the issue too .
Speaker 2That was the whole issue at our big organization .
Speaker 1That was part of the whole issue is that because the appearance of being tethered to one executor of another , those alliances , I don't want to say anything bad because I don't know who she's talking to .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I don't know who she's talking to and how that's going to affect , and we were in a company with over 100,000 people at that time , early 20s it was like 150 at that point .
Speaker 1Oh wow , yeah , it was big .
Speaker 2I remember the one 18 , 120 , but I'll go with the 150 . So I think it wasn't just the work , it was the culture , and I think no one teaches in college and in high school about how to navigate political culture . No one teaches how to navigate a good boss or a bad boss . They said oh , here's what you need to know about HR , Yana . Here's how you deal with legal issues , ethical issues , payroll issues , hiring issues . Not one person sat me down and my entire family and my entire circle and said how do you manage a boss ? So that was its own learning .
Speaker 1Which is why we have the podcast Opportunity . A company spend billions of dollars trying to shape leaders and they will incrementally get better . Like a bad leader will get incrementally less bad . A decent leader will get incrementally better , but they're not going to get exponentially better if they don't have leadership in their value system . That's number one . Number two is when you think of a 40 year career , you're going to work for at least 10 to 15 people . We already know that people leave managers . They don't leave companies . At least that's what the statistics say . They also say that , um , the average tenure in a company is somewhere to three to four years now based on the Bureau of Labor Statistics .
Speaker 2And now , with TikTok society , it looks like less Right .
Speaker 1And so , if we know all of that that's happening , then we have to read the tea leaves . You're more than likely , if you were playing Russian roulette , you're going to run into a bad boss , yep . So why not help people navigate the inevitability that you're going to work for somebody that sucks , and maybe not that person sucks , but you're going to work tangentially for the finance guy whose team won't do their job because he's awful , or what have you ? These are interactions that we have all the time .
Speaker 1Even in small companies , you have this situation where everybody's not firing on all cylinders and it affects you and impacts you , and so how do we make sure you know ? How to navigate the nonsense .
Speaker 2I think that's good . You know , we were in a company that I was on a leadership development program which helped me significantly , because we talked about how to manage conflict , we talked about emotional intelligence , we talked about what makes a good leader , ironically at a time when we didn't have the best leaders . So it's strange to me that in a company , this boss was able to manage and exist simply because we did a good job as far as far as trying to do our best to train leaders . This is exactly what got me into the role that I'm in today , which is really helping leaders to show up with joy at work and be the best , their best selves , because , fundamentally , at the heart of that leader , they were not happy , in my opinion . Um , they were .
Speaker 2When a leadership kick is almost like and I don't mean no harm , so anybody listening , that's a cop . But sometimes I think some cops just were bullied and now they need power so they get a gun and a badge . I almost felt like this with this leader that oh , something's wrong on the inside , have some compassion . And then it went to hatred to have some passion to . It's okay , you're going to get out of here . And my next boss was absolutely better , but unorganized and just unorganized but better as far as kindness . So the best thing about this series with so your boss sucks . You know what . You're going to have different bosses that are good at different things , but know who you are , so you know how to manage .
Speaker 1In that , situation and know how to get the best out of it . So here's my next question so , having this deplorable person , this person with deplorable leadership skills because we also believe that not everyone's bad we don't , you know , people are not good or bad .
Speaker 1If you will , you have people with bad skills and how they show up is bad for you , and it's kind of like some people are not allergic to penicillin and everyone else other people are right Like you're not . Not everything's a gel for you . So when you think about that , what did you learn from the situation ? Because I believe you have to take away something from all of the crazy .
Speaker 2What I learned was look to Jesus and read your Bible so that you are equipped with something to go in there too . I'm so serious I'm not even saying that in a bad way I really feel like I got closer to God in that job because I had to say you are not acting like . You were taught Go and seek the word and be kind to other people , and I needed to show up differently . But I also was taught to ask better questions . I was taught to say what do you expect to need what ? If we decided we could meet before the project kicked off so that I'm not getting such negative feedback at the end . And when I started to do that , she did dismantle a little bit because it was common sense and it was logic , and I started to get more of what I needed , you know , from that person . She even said by the time I left oh , you're going to be a powerful leader because you know how to push back .
Speaker 2The biggest thing that I learned is sometimes people are testing you just to see how you're going to do and in all of my not that I've had a million , but in the two or three really bad boss situations I've had it's helped me to be a kinder person and to also recognize . You don't know what someone else is going through . I don't think I deserved it , but something's wrong on this inside . It's not good when it comes out on the outside like that . So I just learned to be more kind , to get a little closer to Jesus and to also have a foundation for who I was going to be , regardless of who they decided to be .
Speaker 1Listen , I said that in season one and the thing that comes to mind is the book called the Four Agreements and the Four Agreements the first agreement is don't be offended , don't be offended , don't be offended .
Speaker 1Take nothing personally , don't be offended , take nothing personally , right ? And the idea is that I don't know what's going on with you and I'm gonna let you have that and I get to choose how I show up . Right , and we've heard from some of our other guests about how you intentionally have to choose when people are being obstinate , defiant , rude , disrespectful . That you choose . It's a choice on how you show up and it's a predetermined choice . It's harder to choose in the moment because you may not have all your faculty .
Speaker 2Because your amygdala is hijacked and your emotional intelligence is hijacked . But I also think it's a good reminder for us to learn how to communicate . And I see and we'll get into this maybe in another episode I see most of us don't know how to communicate and ask for what we want , so we're just complaining about what's happening around us . So the other thing that I learned is to pause in the moment and to do some work for myself . I'm not perfect , I'm not the best employee , so I just had to pause and say what could this really be about and how do I still make an impact ? The difference is I cared about work . I didn't just come for a check . I cared about developing , I cared about feedback , I cared about learning . So I was more frustrated that those things I couldn't do as well because I was so hijacked by the personality .
Speaker 1Yeah , Well , it's interesting that you say that , because I'm thinking about my time and how I reacted to a lot of it and I would just go missing Like I would literally go missing , I wouldn't answer email .
Speaker 2She would have to call my cell phone Like listen , I have no interest , and then a mutual friend of ours would have to call me .
Speaker 1Like yo , she's looking for him , Like I know .
Speaker 2Give me a minute . I don't have it , I don't and .
Speaker 1I didn't have . I like I have no capacity to deal with you and your foolishness right now .
Speaker 2You could go missing , so maybe that's a new thing I would advise it .
Speaker 1I would not advise it , I would not advise it , but I knew what I could take in certain moments . And oh , by the way , I was remote , so I was several states away . I was on a facility at another location .
Speaker 2She was remote too . She was at home when I was at the office .
Speaker 1Listen , all I know is that and I look back at it and laugh because I wouldn't do that now . Is that ? And I , like , I look back at it and laugh because I wouldn't do that now , right , but you know two three years out of college , I was like listen . I have no patience for it , but show up folks .
Speaker 2But funny story before we get off of this person . This is how things show up . Maybe five years later or so , it's this amazing job with the same company open internationally to move to Africa . I'm like this . The job has my name written on it . The only thing that wasn't good is they showed me how big the dorm rooms were you would be living in and I was like that may not work for me . She's a bit of a prima donna , but I am a big prima donna . But I called another friend , tiffany . I said would you like to take this job ? I think it'll be great .
Speaker 1Shout out to Tiffany Green we love you .
Speaker 2And I know you're still over in South Africa , but you went to Djibouti , to East Africa , to take this job . The reason I didn't go is because I found out who the leader was and I said , oh , I'm not going to be crossing another continent with no support system . You didn't know you could go missing . That was going to be the lead of the job . So I'm saying that to say you have to know yourself , and while we can't blame other people , we have to make decisions to support us . And where I was in my life was like I want to learn how to be a good employee and I want to learn how to do HR well . I don't want to spend my days navigating the difficulties of working for someone .
Speaker 1So , but I would also say , maybe not from that leader . I've also learned how to do good HR by working for some really bad people Like ooh , I want to do that .
Speaker 2Oh , that's the best way , because now we can have this podcast and now I get to coach people on how not to be such assholes . Leap that part out .
Speaker 1No , no , no , no , no , no , no .
Speaker 2But I do think that because of this , we now get to navigate and help people to make a choice about how to be an authentic leader and how to brand yourself . And it's a lot of poor leaders out here that don't know . They're poor because no one has
Learning from Bad Management
Speaker 2ever given them the accurate feedback . But that's another day .
Speaker 1No , no , no we're going to talk about that next episode . So tell me . So all right , so you first first out of the gate . You have the bad leader .
Speaker 2Then , like , give me another one Cause I think I only have two or three y'all promise , but I had to think about this . And the second one I should have walked out of the interview and I didn't know it was going to be such a bad leader . And it was two leaders my direct director and then that person's boss . But the interview was so dysfunctional , unorganized , that my direct manager was asking me questions , shuffling through a bunch of paper , really nervous , and you could tell she wasn't prepared . But I went with it and I answered the questions gracefully . No joke , natalie .
Speaker 240 to 50 minutes into the interview her boss comes in and says let's start all over . And so my face at this time I didn't have a poker face , but I had more religion and I said say more about what it means to start over , because I've been here and I've answered . And that person started asking the same question . So then the other person would say oh well , I asked her . She says well , I didn't hear it . I want to know .
Speaker 2So now they're having this dynamic and I am a psychologist , I'm an HR person , I have a background in organizational development , so I'm partially fascinated that these two folks about to join this . So I leave the interview thinking there is no way I'm getting this job or taking it , and I did . I got it instantly . I think I got a phone call that day after . I gave feedback that this was very unorganized and I'm not sure what's happening . Are you all OK ? Like I literally think I asked that question because there was this very strange dynamic going on . It was in health care , so it made it even more stranger because I was like where's the health and wellness EAP benefits happening for ?
Speaker 1these , so wait a minute , I'm going to pause , so if you haven't watched it , we have an interview with Julia Cooper as a recruiter and she tells us you got to go back and listen to it , if you haven't . She talks about how to get warning signs in the interview . So , literally , you just articulated a bunch of the things that she said , like a couple of the red flags of like maybe you shouldn't take this job .
Speaker 2Go back and listen to the episode I will listen to the episode and I should not have taken it . I think what made me take it was it was an opportunity to do the thing . I love the technical part , so it's funny . Before I would have been saying oh , I'm not worried about working for a good or bad leader . This time I said I can work for any leader because I've had dysfunction .
Speaker 2I know how to manage it but I was able to coach full time and to do the thing that I love . So I said , oh , I can do these two weird people for a little bit , because I didn't need to navigate how to manage a bad manager . I needed to do the work that I love . So this is also a reminder for those of you to know what's important to you at different times in your career , because I should have gone out . Running the office was ugly . It was this brown green color , it was just a lot of things .
Speaker 1Like that 70s show kind of thing Like that 70s show what worse .
Speaker 2And I was like , what year is this Right ? So , anyway , they were having this dynamic Really . Long story short , my direct boss was a little bit of a bad boss because she was clueless and disorganized . So we would drive around , like my first week . She said meet me at this location . I'm in the car at the location and she says , oh , I'm running late . And then she gets there and says , oops , we're at the wrong location . But we have a meeting that starts in like 10 or 15 minutes . So we're going from like Gaithersburg to DC , which .
Speaker 1So we're going from like Gaithersburg to DC and she's asking me to drive . Geographically it's like if it's anywhere near rush hour is an hour drive it is and it's like 13 miles .
Speaker 2Exactly . And then we get to the new building and I say , well , where's the meeting ? Because I'm new , I barely have my little cell phone and my computer . And she says , oh , I don't know . And we was like well , what do you mean ? So then we get to the meeting and the person is frazzled . So I'm not the most low key calm person , but I also I'm not , but I'm also not frazzled in a business meeting .
Speaker 2So here I am with my type A bubbly personality , trying to be calm , while my heart is racing because we have these doctors who are looking at us like we're nuts and I can't say like , oh , it's your fault . But in my mind I'm thinking did you not know where we were going ? So this had happened for a couple of weeks , miss , meetings were happening . So I go to the boss's boss and I say I think I'm going back to my old company and she says why ? And I was like it's just a lot , I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus , but something is off . And she said close the door . I'm so glad you're here . I'm going to get rid of that person and I hired you because I knew you could do the job Shady and most people would be so excited by that . I was like WTF . Because now I'm thinking back to the interview three , four weeks prior .
Speaker 1What in the game of thrones is going on ?
Speaker 2So within a couple of weeks that person was uninvited from the company , threw off the bus and I was now doing two roles , but without the proper title because I had to wait and go through the proper HR and vetting and this and any other . So no title or any money , but doing it . The funny story in the background five or six people sent me this role for that my boss's job and I said no . And another three or four people sent it when it became working for that director and I said no because they knew it was my role .
Speaker 1Yeah , but let me go back to this situation because I think , again , a lot of people would be excited to be brought into the inner sanctum . And I think it's funny because as HR people , we often get told things that are like oh , that's interesting , right , but you do have to watch when a leader is talking about another leader to you .
Speaker 2Because what are they saying about you , that part , when you're not there ?
Speaker 1That part Seriously .
Speaker 2I don't trust it . I didn't feel like , oh , this is great , I get the inside . I feel like , why didn't you vet your hire ? And I feel like , why didn't you vet your hire ? And now I understand why you were interviewing with me the way that you did . But there was also a little bit of lack of authenticity and honesty with that . That didn't feel right and it was like , oh , congratulations , you got it . But I said that role takes me away from coaching , which is what I came to do . I don't want to manage , I don't want to lead a bunch of other people in programs . I want to coach , right . But I think we have to learn to know who we are and what we want so we can speak up for ourselves , no matter how good or bad the boss may or may not be .
Speaker 1But I want to lean into this too , because I was reading some articles about leadership and one of the things that's coming to fruition , I'd say it's the long arc of about 10 years where people just don't want to be managers anymore .
Speaker 2Oh , everybody I meet . Today I'm meeting so many people who don't want to manage .
Speaker 1Why is that ? Why do you think that is ?
Speaker 2In my coaching practice . I would say 85 to 90% of people since the year has started has said to me in some way I don't want to manage . And before I tell you why , it's because they're on these hypo programs and people are sending them to coaching .
Speaker 2Hypo meaning high potential . Thank you , High potential programs where the organization is trying to promote them . The employees know that , but they're saying I don't want to be promoted , but I've been performing well , so I'm going to just do this coaching thing . But please don't tell them I want to be promoted Sidebar .
Speaker 1One of the things that I hate about talent management is that I feel like once you get to a certain technical level , there's nothing else for you to do . I feel like once you get to a certain technical level , there's nothing else for you to do , like it's only . You are only a high potential , to the extent that you will lead people , and I think it's an extreme misnomer , because a lot of people never need to lead anyone ever , and that's why you are great technically go somewhere , sit down and we will pay you copious amounts of money to have deep , wonderful understanding for things that we don't understand ourselves .
Speaker 2And I think Lockheed started to do that good . Back to when we worked at Lockheed Martin they did good . They had a technical track and more of a leadership track and something in the middle where they could pay people to do well , to be a SME , a subject matter expert in their field .
The Second Bad Boss Story
Speaker 2I do think that super employees become supervisors that then become leaders and executives , and the danger in that is if you don't have a strong program to help them be equipped to be an authentic leader on their own authentic leader on their own and they have to want to be there .
Speaker 2So you asked me like , why do people not want to lead ? I'm hearing the funniest stories and the government it's like well , once I hit GS 15 , that's it . Um , so you're now going to make me an SES for just a little bit more money and now I have to come into office every single day for no reason . And my corporate spaces ? I'm hearing I want a life . That's the biggest thing I hear . I want a life . If I become an executive , that equals in my culture . I have no life and I work seven days a week . I don't see my family . I don't want that or the money , so I want to stay here and not grow .
Speaker 1And they don't want the headache of having to deal with their peers that you know . You go from peer to boss , which makes sense . Interesting tension . Now you're not invited to the happy hours , you're not invited to the Superbowl party . You used to key , key , key key but now you're the leader .
Speaker 1No you can't , because you're an agent of the company and I'm not listen . I'm not talking bad about being a leader . I think people who have a genuine interest in developing others , a genuine interest and making other people succeed , that is it's noble work , it's beautiful work .
Speaker 2And it's a privilege to lead . It really is . It's a privilege to lead , but I think leadership always used to equate to money and to power , and when people sign up for those two things , you miss the opportunity to manage other people in a way . That's so beautiful , that's a privilege , because we're all about a few extra dollars and power .
Speaker 1So talk to me again about so . The lady told you to take this other lady's job and they didn't give you no more money .
Speaker 2No , no , um , they didn't . But I'm going to tell you a funny story before I tell you how I had to exit stage left . But the funny story is , I think , that the leader's leader absolutely hates me in the ground that I walk on and her face was intimidating , her position was intimidating . No one ever said anything too too bad about her . People were like , oh , you work for that person . Oh yeah , she's different . And I will say she was an African-American and a minority leader and the boss I had originally worked for was a Caucasian woman . Fast forward , the Caucasian woman gets fired . I get the job . I'm sitting at my desk one day and I get a text that I don't hear . And then I get an email that says check your text from the said boss and that I cannot make this up . And maybe I'm being a little dramatic , but it read something like do you want to go to lunch with me ? Press one for yes , two for maybe and three for no . Wait a minute , wait a minute , wait a minute .
Speaker 1It reminds me of high school Do you like me , do you like me ? Circle Check one .
Speaker 2I'm not being dramatic , but that's how I read it , if it didn't say that exactly , because it was like three choices .
Speaker 1She gave you a poll and a text message , so I thought , oh my gosh , I must be in trouble .
Speaker 2So then I'm like , and then she says don't write back an email , write back on text . So I'm like , what did I do ? But this is maybe six or seven months into the job .
Speaker 1I don't feel like I'm doing anything amazing . She's awkward .
Speaker 2It was , it was , it was weird , so she's awkward . But we never talked at work , we never had anything personal and we never even shared a coffee . So I not know what to do . I'm intrigued and curious . So I say yes , but don't tell anybody else that we're working for I don't want them to know . Don't even make a thing , don't call me from here . And we worked in like secure environments . This was not a clear , secure government environment , this was a medical environment . So I say yes , like , don't even meet me in the garage , meet me at the restaurant Clandestine .
Speaker 1We couldn't even ride together . Jason Bourne , Jack Ryan , Jack Reacher , anybody ?
Speaker 2We had to ride separately . So then I get there and I feel like I'm on an episode of like you know , like I don't know , new York undercover something like I got the hat on and the scarf and I'm looking and she's got the glasses and we sit down and it was weird because this person who I didn't really think liked me she wasn't mean to me , but it was just a very she was hard to read comes up with oh , it's just so glad we get to hang out like this and have lunch . So now I'm like oh my gosh , I'm not in trouble . But what is it ? Oh , I like your manicure . Okay , thanks . Well , where do you go ? And I'm like this is a setup . What is happening ?
Speaker 2The point of this story is to say , when you're not authentic as a leader , I feel that and I'm a very authentic person . So after five minutes of BS , nothing . I really like you and I wanted you to know that . I was hoping we can hang out sometime . I am now totally like get out of here . So I said well , why are you sometimes cold at work ? And it changed the dynamics . I wanted to know oh , I'm not . She proceeds to tell me a story about how she does like me . But she got in trouble and smacked from leaders in HR before I got there for showing favoritism to another black woman employee . So now , because she doesn't want to show favoritism to me , because I happen to be black and she happens to be black , she just doesn't like me at all , so she doesn't get in trouble for favoritism .
Speaker 1So it's so funny that you should say that , because I remember I did my last two or three roles , right , all right . So let me go back when I was at that same company , right , all right . So , for let me , let me go back when I was at that same company , right , so the um , I had what we called it the blacklist , and it was a bunch of younger professionals and it was like I think the email list was like a hundred 200 people and I would send out black history flags every week and we would have happy hours it was like this underground list .
Speaker 2I remember who created it . You know who you are , but I won't say your name , I know exactly , and so he gave it to me . Oh no , this was a she .
Speaker 1Okay , well then we have to talk about that because I got it from somebody else .
Speaker 1I got it Cedric Waters , you owe me , so , um , he gave it to me . He was like you want this , you do need to know it . I'm like I don't want this , but it was fun for the year or two that I was in Jersey and we would get together and like we had a real sense of community . And it's interesting to me and every company that I've went to there's a desire to have that community and shout out to companies who still have their employee resource groups and things like that . But it is always the optics . Everyone else can get together and it not be a problem , but when we get together we must be staging a deal and when she says we .
Speaker 2What she's talking about is African-Americans and Blacks , and I want to be specific to that because I think people don't know it , and that was that whole concept of the books . Why are all the Blacks sitting at one table or something like that ?
Speaker 2I may have the book messed up and it was . Nobody notices until too many of one group , whether it's Black , asian , lgbt , younger or older . No one notices until they're all together . But for us it was even more prominent . So I have this now , my direct leader saying to me I really like you , but I have no signs that she's interested in if I live or die . Now asking me about my manicure and trying to be almost friendly and I'm scared , like what do you want ? So we end the lunch . She says we should do it again . We never did , but we got along okay at work .
Speaker 2The story was I got in trouble because someone said I showed favoritism to another person who was African-American . But then the story got so deep , natalie , that she says and she wasn't even all the way African-American , she was mixed and she was from another country . And for that here's where my heart and my compassion comes in . You've been burnt for something and for that , here's where my heart and my compassion comes in . You've been burnt for something and now that has created you to be the leader you are , which is because of one situation when someone said you showed person a favoritism . Now , anybody that looks remotely like them , I'm going to just treat them like crap . Sorry , that doesn't fix it . That doesn't solve the problem , but in her mind that's how sometimes we work . I've been reprimanded . Let me go to the extreme , but that affects your bottom line , which are the people Listen ?
Speaker 1and it's unfortunate that she to get to a place where she could resolve that . Okay , y'all , y'all have favoritism all over the place , right ? I can't remember the name of the entrepreneur , but she's very well known and I can see her face , but I can't remember her name . And she talks about how , like she was at a firm and they were all talking about , well , her whole team is black and she's like , yeah , but your whole team is white .
Speaker 1Oh , I know exactly who you're talking to the IT firm Um but the whole point is that you know again , when we do something , it's very prominent versus when it's done elsewhere , it's considered favoritism or cronyism or what have you . And I think what , what I would have everyone take away from this black , white or indifferent . Leave people alone , like at the end of the day , everyone's trying to do the best that they can and if you don't have a sense of community at work , it leads to alienation and disengagement . Every engagement survey that I know that's worth a salt will ask do you have a friend at work ? Why ? Because it's the leading indicator to your at-work happiness .
Speaker 2And I think Gardner did studies about that almost every year . It is If you have a person you trust or a friend at work , you're going to show up with more joy and more satisfaction .
Speaker 1Listen at every job I had a work husband I had a work sister . I work somebody .
Speaker 2I'm telling the reverend now . Oh no listen .
Speaker 1My husband knows all of my work husbands Good , good . And they all get along .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's important , but you those relationships . But another point is you can't make the relationships out of nothing . So if you want a genuine relationship , regardless of who the person is , be genuine . And the part that made this a harder boss not the worst part , but a harder boss was there was just so much that was not genuinely authentic and it was a hard barrier to read . And I question their humanness to say do they have feelings ?
Speaker 1But here's what I've found too is that for a lot of leaders who look like me or you , some of us end up having to train in parts of ourselves to be accepted in the circles , and so there's a loss of authenticity and perhaps identity for us to stay where we are .
Speaker 2It's absolutely a bit of sacrifice down to the braids that are in my hair . When I have had people at work say , oh , you look so much softer when your hair is blow dried , I said let it rain outside . You're going to see Angela Davis . So the reason I wear braids is it's easy and I love it and I can go through the storms of the weather . But someone said you look softer because of that . So for years I didn't wear sewing weaves , I didn't wear braids , I didn't wear anything but that . But it took a toll and damaged my hair .
Speaker 1Listen , I will say this . I will um , I don't . I . It wasn't until I left my first corporate job that I started wearing my hair . I actually cut all my hair off as a as a as a treatise of like , I am free from the situation . I wore my natural .
Speaker 2I don't natural curls Come on . Crown act . Before it was a crown act .
Speaker 1Listen , I didn't even know that I had like natural curls , neither did I . We'll put up a shot . Hopefully William will put up a shot of me in my fro .
Speaker 2I didn't know I had natural curls .
Speaker 1I had pressed my hair for so long and then I finally went natural and then when I left , I cut all my hair off and it was like liberating because we had to be but we had to to be acceptable in the space and I think I want people to know , especially if you're younger than us we're not going- .
Speaker 2Let me take that back . We had a choice and I always chose to do what I needed to do . I like money we had a choice . But I come from a family that had no one in corporate America , that had never made those types of salaries at a young age making six figures in twenties or all that . I never had that . So I had a choice . But I chose that so that I could get ahead sometime .
Speaker 1But I think it's . I think it's important too and I like the fact that you said we had a choice . We did have a choice , but I there is a level of because we're not in the majority , the majority space , right , right , the name's not our name's , not on the door , but have you ?
Speaker 1there is a chameleon thing we have to do at times to be in in the spaces , and I don't I don't besmirch that Like . My mother is from Danville , Virginia , which is about two hours , three hours away , Right , and she grew up in the South , but she made it a point to not speak . Southern . She taught us not to have a Southern drawl . I grew up in Jersey .
Speaker 2We would talk not to have a ghetto drawl growing up in that part . She was like you're not going to sound like XYZ , Right ?
Speaker 1I wasn't allowed to say contractions until I was in college . I couldn't say ain't . So when I got to college , what I got was oh , you talk like a work girl . Yep , I do .
Speaker 2Oh , I was told the same too , but I probably won't get a job though . But I went to Catholic school and we were taught you don't . And the same company , the second company I also had bought in a team one day that was brown , all brown , and a few people said too many of them had an accent or slang , and I knew exactly what they mean . It was a Baltimore slang and a DC slang , and a .
Speaker 2Louisiana slang . And it wasn't . And they said , but Ayanna , you sound different . And I said , well , I'm not making my voice sound like this . This is how I sound , but to see five women of color running
Why People Don't Want to Lead
Speaker 2a program was also a threat . They approved it , they vetted it , but it was still a few of the people that worked there said , oh , but they had an interesting way that they spoke . So not only is it our identity , it's how we talk , it's how we look , it's how we choose to act . Sometimes that makes us feel like this is the only way we're going to be here . Now , 20 plus years later , I see that dynamic shifting hugely from where we were 20 plus years ago . I think that's a sign of the times , but I also think it's a sign of maturity , where , for me , it's okay to walk away from something that I wouldn't have walked away from before , because I didn't know that there was a bigger world to work out here .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I appreciate how the barriers are starting to break down . I have a really good little sister . Shout out to Sinead Urquard . She's a recruiter cousin so you guys should check her out on LinkedIn . But she has her brand to the point that she's a recruiter and she's like look , I'm from Camden , New Jersey , and I'm not going to change how I talk and I'm good at my job and she's great .
Speaker 2And she used to tell me like now you talk white , I do , because that's what I was needed at the time , and so I'm excited about the fact that it's proper , and that's what I didn't understand , because growing up in our house . It was just even in our family . It was just proper Okay .
Speaker 1But it was . But it was . It was white because the tone , the tonation , like the timbre , the nasalness right . Like I can speak proper English . I didn't break contractions and all that stuff , right . But and then I went to an HBCU , which was an interesting experience , right , because I was the black white girl , right , and I think we Shout out to Bennett , shout out to Bennett College , good old Bennett , and I think all of those things matter , as you're in these work environments .
Speaker 2It all matters and I know , though , we started talking about bosses it all matters and I think the takeaway for me is we can all lead and we can all be a boss or a manager in any way , and so , even if you don't manage direct reports , model who you are as a leader , as a person , and that was my takeaway . Through good , bad or indifferent bosses , I get to lead even without direct reports . How do I want to show up and model the way ? And I'm not always perfect , and neither are they , but it's just that reminder that you should demonstrate the characteristics you want someone to give you .
Speaker 1Absolutely . So , all right . So we're going to do a letter , we're going to do one of the letters .
Speaker 2It's a hot topic y'all , so we're going to do a letter and do one of the letters .
Speaker 1It's a hot topic , y'all . So this is from Michelle . She's an HR manager from Atlanta . Dear , your boss sucks . I was hired as an HR manager to help lead our company's DEI initiatives . It was something like the company said that it was a serious about creating inclusive leadership programs , diversifying hiring and fostering a workplace where everyone felt valued . But lately leadership has been quietly dismantling everything . The budget for our mentoring program is gone . The DEI committee was restructured , which really means dissolved . When I tried to bring it up in the equity up equity in a recent meeting , I was told we should focus on unity , not division . I feel like I was hired to check a box and now they want me to make all the initiatives disappear without making noise . I understand the business priority shift , but I feel like I'm betraying employees who trusted me to create real change . If I fight too hard , I'm afraid that I'll be pushed out , but if I don't fight at all , I will be complicit in this black slide . What do I do ? Frustrated diversity in disguise , michelle what does she do ?
Speaker 2I'm going to speak from an HR perspective , but with my coach hat on , because I can't . I can't separate the two . Nat , I'm an executive coach .
Speaker 1Michelle , the intersectionality of everything .
Speaker 2You know , I think the first thing you should do is get honest with yourself about what it is that you want at this roadblock . What is it that you want and what is your highest value ? We only need one value . What is the value that's being stepped on that you feel disrespected by , that you feel disregarded ? What might you make up her value to be that she's feeling compromised in ? We can make up anyone , but what one ?
Speaker 1I think it's honesty right . She was hired to do a thing and now she can't do the thing she was hired to do .
Speaker 2It's honesty , and I think sometimes people get lost in the feelings and emotions . That is something else , maybe even about the DEI , or maybe about fairness or justice . But I think to start with honesty is , if you're being honest with yourself , what is the right question that you need to ask the company and what's the right choice you need to make to be honest with yourself in an environment where people weren't all the way honest with you . And then you know . I would say pick your fight , sis , pick the fight of you know , back in the day , shout outs to Sean if you're watching this . Sean Jenkins was an amazing HR leader I had who used to say pick battles big enough to matter but small enough to win . And so if this is big enough to matter , fight .
Speaker 2If it's not , let it go and go find another honest situation where you can do the best of yourself . But be honest with yourself and speak up . Now there's more behind it , like your financial situation , all the things . I'm not here and I've had a lot of jobs . Also , my advice is to quit , to let it go . Let it go , but in the midst of not letting it go , I say speak up in your right time and when it feels comfortable enough for you that you're not in any type of a financial insecurity place , but to ask them what is possible for you to do and to speak on the honesty part of it and to say , well , what can we do instead ? But you know , my advice is always a little bit street gangster , which is find another job that wants you sit at tables , that invite you , and things may have shifted , um , but I think that you could ask them to be honest about it and maybe deliver the message themselves , so it doesn't come from you . Yeah , and we have to do that all the time in HR .
Speaker 1So so I would I like what you said , and I want to kind of put things in perspective . The headlines are bleeding with this topic right Right now , yes , and it could easily feel like the world is crashing down , but the other thing that I'll share is that there's a there was a report done by I think it was New York times . It said 97% of companies are backing down on their initiatives , and so I think what's a couple of things that I would challenge you on is , once you do all the dismantling , what's the thing that they want you to do ? Like , if you're skilled in this work , if this is your life's work , if this is your passion , where , what corner ?
Speaker 2are they going to sit you in what's ?
Speaker 1next , right , you've got to think about the second and third box implications to what's happening and really make them have a real hard conversation about where does my future lie in this organization . If you can settle on that answer and it's something that excites you , that's a new opportunity . Then I'd say you know what ? Ride that out and see what happens , especially if you still feel as if you're somehow valued as an individual , even if the work is being responsible in a reactive way . But the second thing I'll say is this I honestly think you know I like to be a bit of a futurist , right ?
Speaker 2So you don't quit as quick as me .
Speaker 1No , no , no , no , no , no , no , no .
Speaker 1I don't because I got mouths to feed right , but I will say this I believe that we are all about to be in a season where we're going to have to be Harriet Tubman right , when we're going to have to have this underground railroad of network where we may not see the quiet things out loud , but we'll say it to each other and figure out how to move in silence , because , as much as we want people to accept what's happening , part of the challenge with the work is that we are really . You know , my grandfather was a pissing in the wind in some cases , because some people don't want this knowledge , and so do you want to be the Harriet Tubman in the organization that is helping people maneuver and translate what's happening in the organization , because I promise you , my career has benefited from a lot of underground railroad conversations , and it's also we do have to change the language too , because I can still model good behavior of inclusivity .
Speaker 2I can model good behavior of being thoughtful about differences without it being called an employee resource group or without it being called something . So I think your question is valid to say so what's next for me in my career ? Because we had this thing and no longer exists . What would you like me to do now ? But see , I'm a little risky and you know this A little , a lot . But my risk comes in asking it's a book called Change your Questions , change your Life .
Speaker 2Marilyn Adams is amazing American University shout outs . As a graduate of AU , american Change the question you have to them what is prompting this ? What does fear have to do with it ? What would you do if you weren't afraid ? Because I can settle for doing whatever you ask me to do . If I understand the reasoning , I think Michelle may be caught in the I don't even know what I can or I should ask . I'm making that up . So ask the right questions , because you may be pleasantly shocked that there's more to it than we know , and then , from that , make your decision . See , if I ask the questions and it's just oh , this just feels right today because of the wind and the way things have been going with the current state of the world , that's different than we have to take a timeout because I got a strategy and this is what it looks like . That's going to be different . So I'm asking you to be courageous and be bold , michelle , and ask the right questions so that you can make the right decision , leaning on that value of honesty .
Speaker 1I would say ask the right questions of the right people . So my longtime mentor his name is Ken Diskin . Shout out to Ken Diskin . He is my fairy godfather of my career and one of the things he would tell me is don't ever talk to people about your situation that can't help you change it .
Speaker 2Well , nick , spain shout outs to you too , because Nick also told us that , like you talking to the wrong audience , if they can't help you , what's the purpose ? Yeah , so who's going to help change that situation for ?
Speaker 1Michelle , michelle , listen , we want to hear more . Good luck , let us know how it works out . But at the end of the day , I think you know in your heart what you need to do and just follow that . But Ayanna would tell you to quit Any last closing thoughts . When it comes to your career , your , you know your journey as this , you know HR coaching guru , this OD beautifulness . What would you say ? What would you say to the people that are like struggling in their bad bossery ?
Speaker 2Two things again , because I can go from you know , gangster to Christian , to that own self . Be true . And you know , this last question made me think about that . Know who you are , because my advice works for me and my spirit . Your advice can work for you and your spirit , but you have to get centered in knowing who you are to make the right decisions . Too often we just take the advice from someone else and do what they say . Get quiet with yourself and think about what those values are .
Speaker 2And the last thing I will say is I heard a business coach say this recently . Her name is Danielle and she's a business coach in this group around Black women who invest . She says we have not because we ask not . And that's a very Christian , biblical thing and a model I live by . Ask your leaders for what you want and need and give them an opportunity to do it , because at the end of the day they're just humans struggling , like us going to the bathroom , like us going through their own life's journey . That may or may not have been trained well , but first it's up to us to ask , and I think in this generation we're not taught well how to ask or how to push back , but we have to ask and give people genuine time to figure out if they can meet your request . And if they can't , then y'all quit .
Speaker 1Fair , fair , but I will go back to this Merrilee Adams thing .
The DEI Dilemma Letter
Speaker 1So Dr Merrilee Adams is a pioneer in her own right . I would strongly suggest , if you have problems with questions , go grab this book . It's called Change your Questions to Change your Life and the premise is this when you ask questions out of curiosity and looking to learn , it's different than judging the situation , judging the person , judging yourself , because it leads you to a dead end .
Speaker 1If you ask why did this happen to me ? Why did they do that ? Why am I stupid ? Why am I all these other things ? She says you're going into the mud or the pit . It's called the judgment . The pit of judgment is what she calls it . And she says there's a learner mindset . And those learner questions are curious questions Like now tell me how we got here .
Speaker 2What did you learn from working for that bad ?
Speaker 1boss . That's right , that's why we can interview this way , and so we love that book , because it really is a seminal work on how to ask good questions , to get answers , to inform your next step , because if you stay in a place of victimization , then you take away your power and you lose your autonomy and you lose your ability to think clearly and your mental health too .
Speaker 2And in the book . Just if you don't read the whole book , go to Google and put in the choice map . It's a PDF and the choice map sums up the book about the learner you know road versus the judges road .
Speaker 1We'll put it in the show notes . We'll put it in the show .
Speaker 2Yep , yep , and that's why I just think that it's important to always be at choice , because we chose to change our identity , our hair , our voice , our whatever to be there Cause we like money .
Speaker 2Cause we like money , but it's also I'll have to find the exact . Keenan and Peele did this little like thing about how sometimes we I can't think of the exact word , but we kind of shift who we are around the audiences that we're with because they're comfortable . So be at choice , but really try to learn as much as you can by being in learners mindset . We all judge , but just don't stay there too long Like I want you to judge if your car is not working , the brakes aren't working . Don't be like what can I learn ? No , try to stop , because there's a time and place to judge and say , okay , I need to stop , and then there's a time to say what can I learn ? And so just take care of yourself , both the employees , and shout out to the bosses doing the best y'all can . That might not even know somebody thinks you're a bad boss .
Speaker 1Well , listen , ayana , this has been so much fun . Oh my gosh , I really , really appreciate you coming . So that's a wrap on our episode . Listen , I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation . We talked about authenticity , we talked about learning from your bad boss situation and we talked about choice . Go back and listen , cause I'm sure I'm going to go back and listen as well and share it with somebody , because I'm sure you know someone in your life that needs to hear this conversation . Remember , like , subscribe , share and follow , and don't let your boss suck the life out of you . Bye . Today's episode is brought to you by Natalie Parker Enterprises , where we shape the future and unlock potential by helping organizations and people work together to do good work . Find out more at TheNatalieParkercom or , if you'd like to be a sponsor , email us at info at TheNatalieParkercom . Thank you .
