So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
Bad bosses happen to good people. Join entrepreneur, corporate trailblazer-turned-business strategist, and podcast host Natalie Parker as she unpacks real-life stories of tough leaders and toxic work environments. With Natalie’s expertise in navigating corporate chaos and building strategies for success, this podcast offers practical advice and actionable insights to help you turn workplace challenges into opportunities for growth. Whether you’re dealing with micromanagers, toxic cultures, or just plain bad vibes, this is your go-to guide for taking control, thriving, and proving that when your boss sucks, your success doesn’t have to.
So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
S2 E7 Built for the Mission, Not the Mess: Navigating and Leading in Broken Systems
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Katherine Coles shares her journey from struggling as a first-time leader to developing a leadership philosophy centered on partnership, integrity, and continuous learning. She transforms her understanding of what makes an effective leader by recognizing that leadership requires both self-awareness and intentional relationship-building.
• Leadership isn't about compelling people to follow but creating conditions where they choose to follow
• Only 8% of the population has true self-awareness, making intentional leadership development crucial
• Leaders who don't hear, see, or acknowledge team members create the worst working environments
• Speaking truth to power requires balancing the desire to be right with the desire to be heard
• Modern organizational systems often focus on outcomes while neglecting how people experience change
• Career transitions provide opportunities to develop adaptability and depth of understanding
• Building systems that honor people as much as performance creates sustainable organizational success
• Being grounded in personal values provides protection when navigating broken systems
• Faith can provide both direction and conviction when making difficult leadership decisions
If you're navigating broken systems, feeling unheard, or seeking to develop as a more effective leader, this conversation offers practical wisdom and inspiration.
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Episode Introduction
Speaker 1comes to bad bosses , tell us about your experience . Tell us about the bad boss experience and what you learned about yourself and them .
Speaker 2Well , it's like for me it goes way , way back . I'm going , my mind is going through all of the different bosses that I've had , and I'm actually going to start with my first experience as a boss . I was a bad boss .
Speaker 1Oh , I like to do tell . Hi , I'm Natalie Parker , welcome to . So your Boss Sucks Now . What have you ever had ? A person who's willing to speak the truth to you , even when it may be uncomfortable ? Well , that's my next guest . Catherine Cole is a builder of systems , one that honors people as much as performance . She has over 20 years of experience in organizational chains and she's led transformation efforts that empower leaders to lead with clarity , compassion and courage . As a single mother and a Black woman in corporate America , she knows what it means to thrive in a space that's not built for you . Now that she's pursuing her doctorate in strategic leadership , she's proof that it's never too late to grow , to rise and to lead boldly . As a woman of faith , she's the founder a founder of decalo leaders , a community of leaders who follow jesus , helping people live out their faith at work . Catherine believes in the power of learning , healing and reshaping systems we inherit into ones that serve . Help me welcome , catherine coles . So , catherine , it's really good to have you today .
Speaker 2Thank you for having me . I'm excited .
Speaker 1I am Dear , dear , dear friend , welcome to the Sew your Boss sex community I am . I'm so excited because I am . I've always admired you , your energy , your , you're literally the opposite of me when it comes to detail , orientation , right y'all ? Catherine used to check my work , my spelling , my grammar , because I was not the queen of details . Um , and it worked well together when we were at Amtrak and I'm so glad that , oh , oh , my gosh , we're . I think I'm 15 years removed from being on track now .
Speaker 2Yes , I am too actually . No , no , no , no , it's not 15 .
Speaker 1Nathan is like my son is in this year , so it's probably yeah , yeah yeah , he's 10 .
Speaker 2So not 10 for you , it's one for me , because I love to yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , oh , my , my gosh , if this is the , this is the meaning of keeping your networks , people , because it will pay dividends . Um , so I like to ask the question when it comes to bad bosses , tell , tell us about your . You think about the worst boss , the worst situation you had . What was the scenario , what role were you in ? You don't have to tell us the gritty details . We want to . You know , save the , the innocent and the guilty , right , but you know , tell us about your experience . Tell us about the bad boss experience and what you learned about yourself and and them well , I , it's like .
Speaker 2for me it goes way way back , way back . My mind is going through all of the different bosses that I've had , and I'm actually going to start with my first experience as a boss . I was a bad boss .
Being a Bad Boss
Speaker 1Oh , do tell .
Speaker 2I lacked knowledge of what a leader should be . I didn't have the knowledge , I didn't have the awareness and I didn't have the knowledge . I didn't have the awareness and I didn't have the vision . And so I have to start with . I was a bad boss because I just didn't know how to lead and no one taught me .
Speaker 2I was based , my leadership skills were based on how other people led me , and so how I showed up as a follower and how I experienced other people's leadership is how I started leading , and it didn't work well .
Speaker 1How did you find out it wasn't working ?
Speaker 2Oh , my goodness , it was the worst leadership experience ever . I mean , at the time I blamed the person that I had hired and so my blame went to them . In retrospect , years later , as I've studied leadership , as I've researched and been curious what makes people decide whether or not to be a part of a team or not to be a part of a team ? What is the leader's role in that , I realized that I did not give them anything that they were willing to follow , and I think leaders miss that piece . They think that they're supposed to do all the work , but it's actually a partnership between the leader and the team member , and team members choose who they want to follow , and me , being a member of a team but not really being a member of a team ever until later in life , kind of began to realize that it's a partnership that I didn't always play well with .
Speaker 1So , hindsight being what it is right , it's 2020 . When did you realize , like , ooh , I was bad . Bad . Was it in the moment ? Or was it , like a post-op , You're doing an autopsy in this situation ?
Speaker 2It was post-op in years . It was post-op in years . Yeah , it was post-op in years . How can I put this ?
Speaker 2Amtrak was yeah that was yeah okay , I'm trying to think you know , I've been through so many transitions in my life . I'm trying to think Amtrak was started and it was Amtrak probably when I started reflecting on my leadership and that was coming as I began to work with leaders to help them reflect on who they wanted to be as leaders and their leadership style . And in that I've had you know , I've learned that my bad leaders were doing what they knew how to do without being aware of the impact that they were having on me and not focusing on that leadership , that leader team , member partnership , if that makes any sense .
Speaker 1It does on a couple of different fronts . I was reading an article that said I think it was either HBR or Forbes that only 8% of the population has self-awareness only 8% of the population . And so with that in mind , coupling that with a leader not having both self-awareness and an intention on how they want to build the relationship Right , I think for me that's a huge nugget for our listeners of like listen , you will want to be mad at your leader , and I'm not saying you shouldn't even be mad at them , but the assumption of they should know better is probably misplaced . Have never been told to have an intention on defining the leader-follower relationship or the partnership that they need to have . They are tasked with the end of getting an outcome , but not the process and the atmosphere and the culture of what it would take to get it done well .
Speaker 2Exactly , exactly . And I think I was at Amtrak , I was at Fannie Mae , when I realized that I was living in this world of they should know better , and I was in this world that they knew how to lead , knew how to lead , but what they didn't know how to do was they didn't know how to lead me because we didn't have a relationship , we weren't working as a partnership . And so I finally have realized and it's the epiphany , it wasn't an epiphany , it was a developmental , it was an evolution . For me to recognize that and I'm still recognizing it .
Speaker 1I appreciate the candor and the vulnerability around like , listen , I was a bad leader . I laugh all the time of the leadership journey that I've had in my career and knowing that , ooh , I probably didn't do that right . I did that great , but , oof
The Leader-Follower Partnership
Speaker 1man , I could have handled that better . And I think it's important for folks to know that , listen , we're not always going to get it right . You've got to give people grace . The other thing that I've been sharing with leaders lately is twofold . One , how do you create an atmosphere where people can give you that feedback ? I'm hearing from leaders like , listen , no one talks to me . How do you create an atmosphere where people can give you that feedback ? I'm hearing from leaders like , listen , you know , no one talks to me . I just do what I need to do because they're not giving me the feedback and I'm like , well , when did you ask for it and how did you ask for it , and do they feel safe enough to give it ?
Speaker 2That's it right there , because I've worked with leaders who I've asked those same questions and they said well , I asked for it . And the question comes up for me as a coach so why do you think ? What are you ? What do you think you're doing that's preventing them from being feeling safe enough to provide it . And so I will sit in on leadership meetings sometimes and kind of watch how the dynamic works and how they work back and forth with each other , because team dynamics is one of my passions . I like to see how people engage with each other , and what I noticed , and what I give them feedback on , is someone actually gave you feedback , and what you did , instead of receiving that feedback , is you defended your behavior . And so , quite honestly , if I gave you feedback and you defended your behavior , and so , quite honestly , if I gave you feedback and you defended your behavior , it is not likely that I'm going to give you feedback again .
Speaker 1Listen , especially because your defense is completely agnostic to my experience .
Speaker 2Exactly , exactly .
Speaker 1You don't care that I had an experience . You care that you want to be right .
Speaker 2You're dismissing how I am receiving you and so , therefore , you're not seeing me , nor are you hearing me , and that's the worst leader . That's the worst leader that I've ever had Leaders who did not hear me , leaders who did not acknowledge me or see me , leaders who dismissed my perspective , even though I was the one in the midst of it all .
Speaker 1I want to know what that looks like . Give me the tactical symptoms of a leader not seeing you , hearing you , understanding you or including you , especially for people who are like I think that might be me , but I'm not sure . What does that look like when a leader doesn't ?
Speaker 2hear you when the leader doesn't see you . What does that look like ? That can look like a lot of different things For me . I'll give you a recent experience over the past couple of years . Okay , so , as you and I have talked about before , I have been , I have , I do work . I do work in leadership and team dynamics . It's where my passion is . Dynamics . It's where my passion is .
Speaker 2What's included in that and has been included in that is helping people integrate diversity , equity and inclusion into their organization . How do we make this part of who we are not a separate thing in a part right , and that's something that I've been trying to talk about for two years leading up to . We need to talk differently about this thing called diversity , equity and inclusion . We need to expand our own inclusion . It is not for a group of people , it is for all people , and we need to start to redevelop that . We need to start to define that differently for our clients right . Help our clients look at it as a way of integrating and spreading this as to how they do work , not something separate and apart . They need to make sure that they do , and so the leaders of this , of DEIA and my organization at the time said yes , they were nodding their heads , and yet they were still practicing the old script .
Speaker 1All right .
Speaker 2And I would repeat it and over time , and they would still practice the old script . So how that looked as though I wasn't being heard or being seen is that they did not . They would . I would say something , but they would keep doing what they were doing , and so that , and that's happened a couple of times in my career .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2I would raise a point , I would say something . I would say something that I saw , but then they would keep doing what they were doing say something that I saw , but then they would keep doing what they were doing .
Speaker 1It's funny because I think that for one of the things that comes to mind for me is the analogy I use . A lot of organizations use E-D-E-I-A , e-d-e-i-a or D-E-I whatever whatever acronym . Your company called it at the time as the egg after baking a cake , right ? So like you bake the cake and then you're like , oh , let's put DEI in it . And it's like you try to put it on top of the cake after the cake is cold and it's iced , rather than trying to bake it into the organizational system and framework from the get up , right . And for me that unlearning I found in a lot of different ways , but specifically in this space is really hard .
Speaker 2It is . It is really hard , and what's come back to me over the past three months is she told us about this a year ago , two years ago , and we didn't listen . And it's not an I told you so moment , it's just do we really listen ? Or do we really believe , as leaders , that we need to know , we know better , we need to know everything and , as a coach , I've worked with leaders who are overcome with I need to know everything . It's like no , you really don't . That's the point of a team .
Speaker 1So I want to dig in , catherine , to this idea of being a practitioner of people and systems . Like , in my mind , in my experience , you are a practitioner of designing systems for people to be successful . In your experience , like , in what ways have some of the systems just not served people that they like in the worst ways ?
Speaker 2You see , it
Systems That Don't Serve People
Speaker 2biggest in change when organizational systems go through change and they design the change and they say we're going to do this . And I saw this a lot when in 19 , no 2008 , when the people may be too young to know when the housing bubble burst Right and you wanted to change and a lot of organizations needed to change their culture and so I'm not naming names at this point . But organizations needed to change their culture , and so I'm not naming names at this point . But organizations needed to change their culture and so they started to design this change without taking into how people were going to adapt to this change . How is this going to impact the people who had to live this change ?
Speaker 2You just kind of flip the script on them and they're resisting . And you're not listening to your resistors and they're telling you something . They're not just being angry , they're telling you something . So I've worked with leaders who would just say you just have to deal with these , these resistors . You just have to . You just have to compel them to do what you said to do . Just have to compel them to do what you said to do . Well , that's not leadership , that is bullying it is bullying .
Speaker 2It is , it is , it's , it's .
Speaker 1It's demonstrating a belief that people that I , that that work on my team are there to do what I tell them to do I , I but I'm surprised that there are a lot of people that lead that way in this very um , authoritarian space , especially in the leadership space . I'm always disappointed when I'm like we need to listen to the pain points good , bad or indifferent , admit where you can't even do it . I know that's going to hurt and I'm sorry that I can't do anything about that . But I can offer this it's a give and a take , especially when the system are usually not built for the people . We're always trying to build for the outcome rather than designing it for the people who actually do the work . And I'm always fascinated too , because it's like if you don't build it in a way that's considering them , they're not going to do it , they're just going to work around it .
Speaker 2I like to say that raising my children was a really helpful in teaching me how to do that .
Speaker 1Say more .
Speaker 2Here's the thing when I raised my children , I had my role models . Were my parents right , and so I didn't do everything that they did ? But one of the things was , you know , time out or taking away something that was important . So you know you're punished . You did something child did something wrong . You punished them , you put them and you know they couldn't watch television . That was my punishment Couldn't watch television for a week . Here's the thing . They would do that they would not watch television as long as I was watching them .
Speaker 2As soon as I leave the room or as soon as I have to go to work , the television comes on . It's the same in the workplace . People will do things the way you say . You have two things that's going to happen . People will do things the way you say as long as you're watching them , and as soon as you stop watching them , they're going to go back to what has worked for them successfully , or they're going to do what you say . It's not going to work the way you thought it was going to work and they have absolutely no accountability for why it didn't work .
Speaker 1Yeah , and it's funny , I was having a conversation with a group of leaders on Saturday and we were talking about incenting employee development and I said one of the reasons why leaders don't develop employees is because organizations have limited to no incentive for them to do it . They are assessed on their numbers , they're assessed on their errors , they're assessed on , you know , being able to meet the , the tactical expectations of the outcome , of return on investment . But the unembedded , indoctrinated cost of indoctrinated cost , I don't know . But the embedded cost of like , what does it cost to lose team members ? What does it cost to develop team members ?
Speaker 2I have yet to see an organization really do the development side of requiring leaders to develop other people do the development side of requiring leaders to develop other people , and if you look at leadership development programs and organizations , you will not see what leaders , a leader's role , see , a central part of being a leader , and that is to develop your team members . You will not see that in an organization development , in a leadership development program ?
Speaker 1So it's interesting because it's that plus . I don't ever see it in their goals . I see the financial numbers , I see the . You know let's reduce the risk or safety or what have you . But not like . I want you to make sure that you are designing and creating systems to make sure that at least one or two of your people are up and out or at least promoted , like it's usually controlled by very few people , and you know , for me this , this conversation of like the systems , the systems are usually not made for you , they're made for the organization , and learning how to navigate the system is imperative for anyone who wants to be successful in these corporate spaces organizations as they grow .
Speaker 2Their systems are they , they need their . Their primary purpose is how do we accomplish what we want to accomplish in our organization while we interact and navigate the external environment around us whom we serve right ?
Speaker 2yeah and then and then in the process , they grow out , they outgrow and they outgrow their people and they don't know , they forget to continue to include their team members in the vision of what the organization is trying to do . And then they don't even remember to develop their leaders , to know how to take that vision , that larger organizational vision , and bring it down to their particular or their particular piece of the organization . For example , hr right . What is the vision of HR ? Well , I know what the purpose is , but as a member of the organization in HR , what is our vision ? What is our vision ? What are we trying to accomplish ? Right , and how do we tie that to the organization's vision ? They don't develop that skill set within the system .
Speaker 1I agree , but I'd actually take it one step further and say that part of that lack of development is , more often than not , leaders don't have the strategic perspective to define it . I'd also say that functions , especially like HR or finance , don't see themselves as an internal customer . Like I've had copious amounts of conversations about realizing that as a function , you're there to support the money making end of the business , so they are your customer . And I've had knock down , drag out conversations with people like you know , no , we're peers and yes , but they make the money . Like I need you to help them make the money and all of the things you should do should mitigate cost , time and effort so that they can go make the money .
Speaker 1I had a guy shout out to Steve Bonifero , wherever you are , he used to tell the HR function he's like this company does not make HR , they make paper products . Nobody's buying HR . Unless you're like bamboo , right , nobody's buying HR . You need to serve the organization with your function , not be a deterrent of it . I had one leader , john Lucas . He used to say what's the HR tax to the business ? What's the tax that we're putting on them to try to do the work that takes them away from the work that makes us money , and a lot of departments don't think like that .
Speaker 2Correct . For me , it's always been how does what you do help the managers who make the money accomplish their mission , their vision ? How do you partner with your team members ? And that's what gets lost . We are such an individualistic society that we forget that to make organizations run well , we are partners with each other , as well as with our customers and our stakeholders .
Speaker 2And so , to answer what you know , leaders , who you know , my bad bosses are people who forget that , who feel that it is their total responsibility to make me do what I need to do so that they meet their numbers . How did I adapt to that throughout my many roles in corporate America is I figure out what is it that they need to do , what's important to them . So , even though I wasn't the boss , I still was a leader . In that my role was to figure out what's important to you . How can I help you be successful ? And in that I learned
Navigating Race in Corporate America
Speaker 2the system and that I create the environment . So I kind of help them accomplish what it is that they need to accomplish . And the more I help them accomplish what they need to accomplish , the more they give me latitude to accomplish what's important to me .
Speaker 1I remember , as you were talking , I remember one of the projects we were working on together and how we were with the team and the direction we got was like we'll design it . And we were both like , yeah , you can't design it until you talk to the customer because they've got to live with whatever we put together . And we took a few times on the chin advocating for let's go and ask first , you know and diagnose before we assess , before we diagnose .
Speaker 2And so how I and part of that , we went on to convince them that that's what we needed to do . And how did we do that ? We figured out . What were they being measured on ? What was keeping them up at night as a leader ? We want to find out what keeps our team members up at night , what is important to them . Once we found out what kept them up at night and we showed them how our approach would help them get to where they wanted to go , they gave us latitude to do what we needed to do . They gave us time , which they didn't want to give us , and they gave us the people which they didn't want to give us in the beginning .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I think it reminds me of a book that I read once called Every Job is a Sales Job . Right , you've got to understand what the client , customer , whatever the person you're trying to convince to partner with needs so that they can have mutual accountability . I say this all the time is , accountability isn't just one way , it's a mutual agreement of we're trying to accomplish this thing and you've got a part and I've got a part in how do we put those parts together . Right , I want to talk about your experience as a , as a African-American woman , the black woman , in corporate systems . Like when did the system ? When has a system been just you've been able to kind of maneuver it and it was fine versus when you were like this system is really not for me . You said it earlier about like they weren't trying to manage me or lead me and they weren't interested in that . Like when ? What's the most glaring experience where you've had like this is the system's not here for me at all .
Speaker 2I am thinking about a time . Well , my first leadership job where I was really bad at it was one I was I was struggling with . I only had one person to lead and I hired them , so it was my very first role and I was in there , and it was a family owned business .
Speaker 1Sidebar family owned businesses are very different .
Speaker 2Family owned businesses are very different , but everybody , but everybody it is . But everybody didn't own , didn't work . Everybody I worked with weren't in the families , but what I'm trying to say is they were . As I was struggling to lead this person , they and they had known me for over a year and this person was struggling to follow me , and so this person was going to them with how bad a leader I was Right and they wouldn't . They weren't giving me any guidance , they were just telling me , they just took this other person's side , which literally broke my heart because I thought they knew me but they didn't . So that was the most glaring when I gave a manager feedback on an opportunity . So someone had an opportunity to take for two jobs . This was when I was a consultant . They had an opportunity for two consulting opportunities . One of those consulting opportunities would minimize or almost reduce their pay .
Speaker 1Oh , wow .
Speaker 2The other one would keep them whole right . I was not the one making a decision . My manager was the one making a decision . We were talking about it , but the one that was going to reduce their pay was of better benefit to the manager .
Speaker 1From a developmental perspective .
Speaker 2From a .
Speaker 1Experience .
Speaker 2Not from experience , not from a developmental perspective , from a numbers perspective , from based on how the manager was going to be , what the how the manager was going to be measured .
Speaker 1OK . Ok but it wasn't as transparent .
Speaker 2It wasn't as transparent . I knew it , but I knew how . I knew what the attempt was . I knew what the attempt was . It added to the manager's numbers for them to take the lower paying position , then for them to take another position that was internal , outside of the manager's purview , but would keep them financially whole . The individual was a person of color .
Speaker 2Okay , and I mentioned it , I said something about it . I said and so the manager's attempt to keep the person happy but to get them to go in a direction that they wanted them to go in , was to give them tickets to a basketball game . And so I mentioned to the manager that optically , that just didn't sit well with me . So I spoke up and I said , optically , that didn't sit well with me . The feedback on that was this they did not feel as though I was aligned to their vision , me was not aligned to the manager's vision , and they did not feel comfortable that I was in a leadership role on their team , that I was going to align , that it would be a good fit for me as their leader .
Speaker 2Now I'm paraphrasing that . As a result , I thought about what that was going to be like for me if a as a as a if I remained on that on that manager's team as a leader , but that approach , that , that decision , the conversation they were taken aback . They felt as though I was calling them racist and they got very defensive about it , and so I decided at that point that perhaps I wasn't a good fit to be a leader on that manager's team but this started because you had ethical concerns about the way they were approaching the placement of an employee correct and that they weren't necessarily divulging all the information and the person looked like me .
Speaker 2Yeah , right .
Speaker 1And the person looked like me . Yeah , right , so you left .
Speaker 2I didn't leave the company , I left the role .
Truth-Telling in Leadership
Speaker 1Okay .
Speaker 2Okay , did you have any backlash from that or no ? Well , no , I didn't , because I was still on this person's team , but we were distanced , right , and you know there was a different distance . I had a different role and I went back to where you know . I did not need to know , I did not support them in making those kinds of decisions anymore , support them in making those kinds of decisions anymore . But so I did go to them and I negotiated what my new role would be Good for you . I went and said okay , so I don't think that I'm going to be a good fit for you in this role , and so here's what I'd like to do .
Speaker 1And so here's what I'd like to do looking back at that decision , are you at all kind of hindsight being what it is ? Are you at all curious about ? You know whether or not you made the right decision , or if you should have like reported him or , you know , was he causing more damage after the fact ? Because I do think it is . A lot of reason why many people don't speak up is because they don't want to get into the risk-taking of what I'll say . Speaking truth to power . And I think you know our roles are that , like innately , our roles are to be catalysts and to be an impetus for change and to say , look , you're , you're the you're you gotta . You're kind of jacked up , let's let's take a look at this in the most you know , lovingly , diplomatic way and sometimes the most direct way . Did did you been thinking about what you know ? Having had that experience , would you do it differently ?
Speaker 2No , no , I don't regret doing that at all . It was the right thing to do . I have to live with myself ultimately .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And which is actually why I'm starting . You know , decola leaders . I had the right thing . I had to live with that decision . I don't regret that decision whatsoever . It took , and I did develop a reputation of I would tell you the truth , whether you like to want it to hear it or not . I was going to tell you how I was going to tell you my truth . I'm not going to say the truth , but I was going to tell you my truth . I was going to provide you with feedback as to how I observed something , and that was something that people expected of me and actually began to quite honestly respect from me and actually began to quite honestly respect from me .
Speaker 1Listen , it's a very big thing to have the brand of truth teller , especially when many folks will be silent , right , and so I know I've been both a recipient and a witness to your truth telling . But for anyone who's had the opportunity , I think it's really important for you to decide what can you and cannot live with . I know one of the things that I talk about , especially from a generational difference , is there's a level of both diplomacy that I find at this phase and stage of my career that I probably didn't have 20 years ago , where I was way more rage against the machine versus some of the folks that are coming into the workforce now , who are way more apt to be extremely blunt with their observations and opinions . What would you say to ? You know everyone listening about like what's the shift that's happening generationally and you know if you had your way , what would happen instead of what's happening right now .
Speaker 2So actually this happened before and at FPA , I had one of my managers asked me to read something and I use it all the time now when I'm coaching leaders and they were responding . This manager was extremely blunt , had a reputation for being blunt in the organization and I was working late . They were working late , I walked by their office , I stuck my head in . They asked me to read an email that they were getting ready to send and asked me what I thought about it . And I read the email . My question to her was it depends on what the outcome you want . Do you want to be heard or do you want to be right , and what good is right ? And her answer was I want to be heard . I said well then , here's what I would recommend you do to modify this .
Speaker 1Because what this is about is more about you than about resolving the concerns . It takes a lot of humility right To be like , okay , what's the end goal ? Because , especially if we've been offended , we want to go right into being justified or rectified or setting the record straight . And I found in my career that I've I don't want to say I've missed opportunity . Maybe I have , but I've definitely damaged relationships because I wanted to be right . I talked about it in season where I straight up and down called a guy a liar in a meeting with multiple people . Like I was like sir , you are lying , you're lying . I would not recommend that because it was just , it was a detriment to the relationship . He was not trying to be on any team with me after that and there were more constructive , more , I think , more creative ways to get to what I was trying to get to .
Speaker 2And that's what's important . It's thinking about where are you trying to go ? Sometimes you just and I will ask people I said do you want to just say , be able to say what's on your mind and walk away , or do you want to preserve the relationship and rectify whatever the conflict is ? And sometimes , sometimes , I just want to say what I want to say , and that's okay . But let's be real clear that you're real clear as to what you're trying to accomplish , right ?
Speaker 2But , it's always a partnership Leaders and team members . It's a partnership , it's a two-way street . Leaders can't do it without their team members , but team members do want someone who is going to set the vision and inspire them . You can't motivate people , but you can inspire people . And so how are you going to do that ? But I would say , you know , most times I want to be heard and so I have to stop and think about it . The biggest thing I've learned in the past 10 years of doing this work is I don't have to respond immediately , have to respond immediately . I can give myself some time to settle into the emotion of the situation and then respond when I am closer to getting the outcomes that I want . Not to say I haven't not stepped into it , but I also recognize and own that it was my . You know , I had a choice and that's the choice I took . Maybe it wasn't the best choice , but I made that choice .
Speaker 1And I think it's important to know when and when you do not want to make that choice Right and when you want to be very clear that this is the line you will not cross it , and let's make sure we both understand our boundaries . Um , but that shouldn't happen every day . Unless there's some big problem , then you should call hr . All right , so you've one of the fascinating things I love about your . The arc of your career is just that you've been in so many different industries and you've redefined yourself over and over again , especially raising a family . Talk to us about that . All of those transitions you know , or not all of them , at least some key ones and how doing that as you're raising a family , cause I think a lot of times women and men alike will will forego the shift , the change , to preserve an equilibrium that they can manage until the kids get older , and what have you ?
Speaker 2So I like to call myself well . I am a non-traditional student . I started my career as an administrative assistant and took that to executive assistant , administrative assistant and took that to executive assistant . So at one point in my career I was the executive assistant to the CEO of an accounting firm , and that has come , and in that first that was about the first 20 , 30 years of my career I changed jobs every two years and I changed jobs every two and a half to three years . That's two and a half to three . It's
Career Transitions and Faith Journey
Speaker 2because I got bored of doing the same thing . But what I learned in that season was to adapt to cultures really , really quickly . I learned how to go into an organization and learn how they do what they do quickly and how to learn what they do quickly to help make my manager's vision come to fruition . I learned where the centers of power were . I learned how to influence . I learned how to learn what people needed provide that so that I could have freedom to do what needed to be done . And in that period I was raising two children by myself , for the most part .
Speaker 2At some point during yeah , in 2008 , during the housing collapse it was time for me to do something different . My manager had just said you've reached the top of what you can do here . I for me to do something different . My manager had just said you've reached the top of what you can do here . I need you to do something different . And so I did . I applied for something different . I applied to be a change leader as the organization was changing its culture , and that's what took me into getting my master's degree in organization development . Before that I got my communicate , my my best and communications , and then I went and got my .
Speaker 2Six months later I went and got my master's degree in organization development and when I left that program that was transitioning from what I knew . I had been an administrative . I knew how to get a job to be an executive assistant . I was good at it and I knew how to do it . But when I graduated with my master's , I had to get another . I didn't want to be an administrative assistant . I had to do something different . I had to and I didn't know how to do it , had no clue how to do it , and I prayed , because I'm a woman of faith , and I kept praying and I actually got laid off my last semester of the master's program and I actually asked to be laid off . They were laying people off and I asked to be laid off . They were laying people off and I asked to be laid off because I needed to get out of where I was and get out of where I was without having to pay back my tuition assistance Time out .
Speaker 1Let's put a pause in the meter right there . There is a great wisdom in knowing when to take a package . There's a great wisdom of knowing like and knowing like oh , I need to shift , I need to transaction . There's no , I don't think there's a greater catalyst , other than being terminated outright , of knowing like you know what they're offering this package I should take it . I get some lump sum , I get some time , I get a little bit of everything so that I can make this shift . And having a wisdom and an understanding and guts to do it right for all of you are out there like , oh , my god . I mean , sometimes taking the package is not a bad thing , especially especially if you are considered , you know , well suited for your job , a high potential or whatever . Because one , they'll miss you and being missed is a good thing . That means you might be able to come back . And two , you also have skills that somebody else will want . So sometimes taking the package is a really good thing . I appreciate you bringing that up for sure and I was on .
Speaker 2I was on um unemployment for four months . In that time , never went hungry , never missed a car note , never . You know . My kids had everything they needed to go to school and I call that . I call that grace and blessings and coverage . And then I just kind of started .
Speaker 2When I was ready to go back to work , I just started praying because I didn't know how to look for it . One of my fears when I finished my program was how am I going to do this work that I've spent two and a half years learning how to do ? I didn't know how and I stayed in prayer and I said I just need someone to say yes . And I know that if someone says yes , I will be fine , it will take off . And it did it , did it , it , it took off . Um , I did a six month um fellowship with an organization way , which was perfect timing . Someone reached out for me , reached out to me and said I was looking , I'm looking for an organization development practitioner . Someone recommended your name and I went and interviewed and I was at Booz Allen Hamilton for almost four years and then I got put on the bench . And when you were on the bench , if you're a consultant . When you're on the bench , you look internal and you look external .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2It's a contract and you've's it's a contract and you you've got to take care of your career , and so I got a phone call from a headhunter that was hiring at Amtrak , and so you know that's the same headhunter .
Speaker 1It's funny .
Speaker 2Four and a half years and then they changed leadership . I took a path . I took another package and I was self-employed for about six months and got a phone call that someone was looking for an organization development practitioner and a coach . And I gave them my name and I interviewed and I got hired by Suntiva and I was there and I was there and then they sold to my last employer and I was there for over about five and a half years .
Speaker 1And in all of those cases , you are beating the national average and being with the company right . The national average right now , according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics , is 3.8 years , and I will say that one of the things that I loved about working with you is this idea of creating depth in your experiences not having the same experience over and over again , but having depth so that you have a deep understanding and knowledge of the systems and the functions you're working in . But then also to continuously learn and rev up your skills . And I want you to talk to us about the decision to go doctorate right , especially in the season of your life . Doctorate right especially in the season of your life why , what led you , what have you learned and why does ?
Speaker 2this still excite you to still be learning . Well , I want to go back a minute to the anthrax thing . I was at antrax for four and a half years , but I changed roles every two .
Speaker 1Okay , so I wanted to , because we don't have adhd catherine , we just do a whole . You know how much we did in two years at Amtrak . We put together we worked with a team that put together an entire competency model , the entire approach for a 20,000 person organization . At the time , I think I put the performance management system in place and I think you helped with the designing of the training . We did so much and I don't even remember what all you were working on in the two years that I was there .
Speaker 2We created a whole . I moved to the operations side . So I moved from the HR side to the operations side and led a team to change their whole customer experience , whole customer experience . So they wanted , they wanted to change that , they wanted to do a new customer service training and we did a whole customer experience um program for them that's right .
Speaker 1I remember that and I think the key to being able to do that is when you establish trust , you can go really fast with your customers because they were hungry and we we had those quick wins quickly to be able like , okay , now let me show you what I can do , if we just were able to do it .
Speaker 2But talk to me about this degree soon to be doctor , soon to be dr coles so , um , interestingly enough , I've been flirting with getting my doctorate for 15 years , so almost as soon as I finished my masters , and I just couldn't . I just you know . But when they say , when you go after your doctorate , you 15 years , so almost as soon as I finished my master's and I just couldn't . I just you know . But when they say , when you go after your doctorate , you need to know what your dissertation is going to be in . And one of the things that I wanted to do is , you know , when you go after your PhD , you become a researcher . So your work is about creating new theory . My opinion there is a plethora of theory on leadership . We have been studying leadership for centuries , not decades , centuries .
Speaker 1And still don't have a common definition or common frameworks , common assessments or anything .
Speaker 2Correct , correct . In fact , I'm working on a blog about that right now . So , yes , and so I had been praying about it and thinking about it , and I'm sitting in church one day this was over a year ago . I'm sitting in church one day and I had talked to people at Regent , and I talked to a lot of people . It wasn't the first interview that I had had , but I wanted a program that applied . Helped leaders apply theory , not create theory . Help leaders apply . You have plenty of people who are creating theory , but it falls flat . Leaders are still trying to figure out what do I do and how do I do it and how does this ? You know what does this look like and you know it's one thing to say I'm a transformational leader , but what is that for real ?
Speaker 1OK , it's one thing to say .
Speaker 2I'm an authentic leadership . But what does that do and how does that impact ? And we fall back into old patterns because we can't apply it very well , right . And so when I talked to the region , their program was about application . So it's a doctorate of strategic leadership and it's about application of theory . And so it's me going deep into theory and then learning , and then learning how , and teaching others how to apply it . And so I'm sitting in church one day and I'm , you know , enjoying the service , and I y'all might think I'm crazy but I hear in my head I want you to go to Regent and start your doctorate program . I'm like , okay , but I don't know how to pay for that . I was like God , you're going to tell me how to pay for that . And sure enough , he't know how to pay for that . I was like God , you're going to tell me how to pay for that .
Speaker 1And , sure enough , he showed me how to pay for it . He showed me how to , and so I just started . And it just started , it just happened . I love the simplicity and even innocence of like okay , I'll do it , but how am I going to do it ? Like the voter rule , like I don't know , you know , I ain't got the money , you know . So if this is what we both know , how are we going to do it ? Because , because a lot of time I am again , we're opposites . He'll probably he would tell me , like you're going to go through that wall and I'd be banging my head against the wall trying to go through it before I asked like no , wait a minute , give me the instruction . So don't be like me , children , don't be like me . I love that , and that has now evolved into you being a business owner , and I'm so excited . I feel like I've been waiting for this for a long time . You've been a solopreneur for multiple iterations of your life , but this is different . What is it and how different is it to where you are ?
Speaker 2but this is different . What is it and how different is it to where you are ? So the other times that I've tried and I have been trying to be an I've been dipping my toe into entrepreneurship since you know , even when I was an administrative assistant , I've been dipping my toe in and at one point I had
Launching Decolo Leaders
Speaker 2given up on it . And then I'm studying leadership and it happened the same way . The difference is previously I was trying to do it in my own power and I was trying to decide what it should be about . This one I am leaning on the Holy Spirit to create and he's already telling . He's told me what it's going to be about , and so I'm just doing what he tells me to do . And that's the difference .
Speaker 1Listen , it's a good thing to not only be a leader but to be led , and so , for those of you who have , you know , whatever faith you might , you know , adhere to Catherine . And I are unapologetically Christian , but that said , and I are unapologetically Christian , but that said , I think it's really a beautiful thing to have both the conviction and the I'd say the experience , like the points on the board , to say you know , I trust it and this is what happened right , so I'm glad for that . What advice would you give , catherine , for people who are trying to lead inside of systems that they know are broken , that aren't built for them ? What advice would you give them ?
Speaker 2Be grounded in who you are as a leader . We kind of fall into it and we start just kind of walking , putting one foot in front of the other , and what people really need are leaders who are humble , who are courageous and have integrity , but foremost , that has a focus . Know what your focus is . Who are you ? How are your values and your beliefs tied to the vision for what you want to achieve for the organization ? Organizations teach you how to be leaders to achieve their mission . But even in an organization , you can have a heart for your team and I have found and observed you have a heart . You can have a heart for your team , and I have found and observed . And when I talk to teams , when I'm working with a leader and I'm talking to their teams , they're looking for a leader who will create , who will , you know , give them the vision , help them understand the vision and hold to that vision through integrity , through humility and through courage through humility and through courage .
Speaker 1I love that because I think , if I am convinced that if you don't know what your purpose is and what your values are , the organization will give them to you . And , more often than not , if a person doesn't understand a thing , they are more likely to misuse it or abuse it . So if the organization doesn't understand you , they are more likely to misuse it or abuse it . So if the organization doesn't understand you , they are more likely to misuse you , misplace you or abuse you and your skillset . And so , knowing yourself as a part of the defense of both your identity and the expression of who you are , and keeping real to what you believe in when those challenges do come , when people do try to test your ethics or your integrity or what have you have that grounding . I appreciate that . So what's next for you , catherine ? What's next ?
Speaker 2What's next for me , preferably looking to launch Decolo Leaders in the next six weeks . I'm looking for five people who want to pioneer this with me . It's a community of leaders , and with that we will work to talk about what does it mean to lead others ? What does it mean to follow ? What are my values ? What do I believe , what is my focus ? Defining that I've coached a lot of leaders who don't know how to develop their strategy because they don't know what their focus is , they don't know what their vision is , and so , with Decalit leaders , we will talk about how do you develop your vision , what is your focus , who are you following and why should someone follow you ? Why ? And so we will be starting that . We'll be doing some group coaching .
Speaker 1We'll be doing some service .
Speaker 2And we'll be developing , doing what I've been doing for others , but putting leaders in the workplace that follow Jesus and taking that to the workplace without having to preach to them , but simply model a place of caring and concern and commitment to success .
Speaker 1And compassion right , especially the death of the Pope . We watched all of the things right and just the level of compassion . I saw a , a clip where they took a picture of his shoes and how shoes were scuffed and worn , and he asked for that because he wanted people to see that he was someone who walked among them , who served , he was a servant leader , and that is such a it a it's a meaningful thing , but it's also an intentional thing that you have to live out and I love that . Your mission is to develop that in others .
Speaker 1And I will tell you folks , catherine Coles is the real deal , and so if you want to be involved , if you want to get connected with her , we'll have her information in the chat and in the information that we provide in the show notes so that you can get connected with her . You will not be disappointed by the investment of connecting with her and her community . Catherine , I want to thank you for coming on today . I love your life . Connect with her on LinkedIn . We'll also give you her information , but we really appreciate you coming on .
Speaker 2Thank you for having me . I love you , I love you .
Speaker 1You know I do . Today's episode is brought to you by Natalie Parker Enterprises , where we shape the future and unlock potential by helping organizations and people work together to do good work . Find out more at thenatalieparkercom . Or , if you'd like to be a sponsor , email us at info at thenataliearkercom . Or if you'd like to be a sponsor , email us at info at thenataliparkercom .
