So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
Bad bosses happen to good people. Join entrepreneur, corporate trailblazer-turned-business strategist, and podcast host Natalie Parker as she unpacks real-life stories of tough leaders and toxic work environments. With Natalie’s expertise in navigating corporate chaos and building strategies for success, this podcast offers practical advice and actionable insights to help you turn workplace challenges into opportunities for growth. Whether you’re dealing with micromanagers, toxic cultures, or just plain bad vibes, this is your go-to guide for taking control, thriving, and proving that when your boss sucks, your success doesn’t have to.
So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
S3 E3: Refusing Peasantry: Why She Stopped Dimming Her Light to Survive
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What happens when your toxic boss shares your identity? For Amber Polk, classically trained violinist turned educational advocate, this question became painfully personal when she found herself working under a Black female supervisor who constantly criticized her personality rather than her performance.
"I'm not going to dim my light just because you're threatened," Amber declares in this powerful conversation about workplace toxicity, professional growth, and finding your authentic voice. Growing up surrounded by Black excellence and attending schools where she saw Black leadership daily, Amber developed a strong sense of identity that would later be tested in professional settings where her confidence was misinterpreted as a threat.
The discussion ventures beyond typical workplace advice, diving deep into the psychological impact of toxic leadership. Amber vulnerably shares how shame influenced her initial response: "I automatically said I was the problem and it's my fault." Through therapy and self-reflection, she learned to recognize when leadership issues stemmed from others' insecurities rather than her own shortcomings.
This episode offers particular insight for introverts navigating extrovert-centered work environments, post-pandemic graduates facing disrupted career paths, and anyone who's felt pressured to shrink themselves to make others comfortable. Amber's journey from musical prodigy to advocate illuminates how our passions can evolve in unexpected directions when we remain true to our values.
Perhaps most powerful is Amber's closing wisdom: "Toxic environments deteriorate the humanity of who we are. And if you don't have to stay, don't." Her call to honor your intuition, recognize red flags early, and trust that better opportunities await serves as a reminder that sometimes walking away isn't giving up—it's choosing yourself.
Don't let your boss suck the life out of you.
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Embracing Your Light Despite Adversity
Speaker 1Like anything that is not Eurocentric , has always been negative . I'm not going to dim my light just because you're threatened . To be honest , my most toxic jobs have been with my own . What is that ? You think you all that ? And if I do , and I'm supposed to think I have myself , well , god provides for me . First and foremost , god is going to take care of me , and then these other earthly things are just going to keep losing . But I'm not going to sit here as a child of the low tide and deal with peasantry .
Speaker 2No , welcome to Sew your Boss . Sucks Now what . I'm , natalie Parker . One of the things that I love about superheroes is not that they come in and save the day , but in some cases , they get to show us both their humanity and the point where they go from being human to fearless , that point where they stand up to what's wrong with society or the situation or the villain , and they create a standard , and they hold the standard that many of us hope for , and that's what we're going to talk about today with my guest , amber Polk .
Speaker 2She is both a classical violinist and accomplished violinist . She's an educator , policy reviewer and advocate of equity and education . She hails from both Texas and Louisiana , and you're going to hear her creole grit in this conversation , and she talks about the toll of the toxic workforce , the idea of how shame influenced her experience and what she did to overcome it . And so join me as we have this dope conversation that deals with both race and gender , and policy and toxicity in the workforce . Let's talk to Amber . Amber , welcome to Sew your Ball . Sucks
From Violinist to Educational Advocate
Speaker 2Now what . It's good to have you on the show .
Speaker 1Thank you for having me . I really am excited to be here .
Speaker 2So you know , one of the things that fascinates me about your background is you started in music . Yes , Talk to me about how a violinist becomes an educator .
Speaker 1Okay . So I have to take you back to the sixth grade , where it all started . And I come from a family of singers . Everyone in my mom is a singer . My aunts now they're singers and actually my cousin Hannah Jones . She's a really , really popular singer in New York . She sings opera . So I come from a huge line of singers and actually my cousin Hannah Jones , she's a really , really popular singer in New York . She sings opera . So I come from a huge line of singers .
Speaker 1So in the sixth grade I signed up for choir . I said , ok , I'm going to sing . You know , this is going to be my elective . And they told my mom . They said , oh , it's full , we don't have any more space . Can we put her in orchestra ?
Speaker 1I was so mad , I was so mad . I was like I don't want to be in orchestra , that's not what I want to do . And my teacher , she had the sweetest spirit and I remember walking into her class mad because I didn't give my way , and she was like , well , give it two weeks . If you hate it , you can leave . And I remember picking up the violin and we were playing , just really learning the fundamentals . And as we're playing scales , this love for this instrument just came over me and that's where it started , and since I was 11 years old , I have been playing the violin . So that's , oh my gosh , almost 20 years of playing the violin . So it was not my choice . I wanted to sing because I said , well , everybody sings , so I'm going to sing . And that's how I got into playing the violin .
Speaker 2But I love . I love it for a couple of different reasons . I love that your teacher had enough grace and patience to entice you and that you were influenced by that because you could have been like , no , I'm good Right , entice you . And that you were influenced by that Because you could have been like , no , I'm good Right . And that moment basically changed your life because you went on to major in music . Yes , ma'am , and so tell me , tell me about that , that journey from you know , playing music and majoring in college .
Speaker 1And then what happened next ? Yeah , so I think around the ninth grade I knew in my gut I said , okay , I somehow , I don't know how , but I'm going to be a I'm going to be a black woman orchestral player . That's what I'm going to do . And I told my mom . I said , mom , I want to go to music conservatory , but I'm originally from Beaumont , texas . There are no music conservatories , the closest one is in Houston . But I'm originally from Beaumont Texas . There are no music conservatories , the closest one is in Houston .
Speaker 1So I had to wait into college . So my teacher , who was the same teacher I had in sixth grade , was my same teacher in high school . We were getting ready to be in our region try to go to Allstate . I didn't make Allstate but I got really close . But at Allstate they had this college and career fair and my aunt now and my teacher was like we should take her there because I had already got accepted into a few universities .
Speaker 1But I just had this feeling that my destiny was not supposed to be in the South . So there was a school called McNally Smith College of Music Conservatory in St Paul , minneapolis , minnesota , and there was this lady . Her name was Miss Dana and she had this beautiful , gorgeous red hair . I still remember it and I walked up to her and I was like I'm coming to the school , I want to be a violinist . I was very just assertive , up to her and I was like I'm coming to the school , I want to be a violinist .
Speaker 1I was very just assertive and then I did the interview , did the audition . I auditioned for Berklee College of Music and McNally and I chose to go to McNally because they gave me a scholarship . So I , this young girl from Beaumont , texas , which is right by Louisiana , I go from the deep , deep South all the way to Minneapolis where it is super cold . There is not a lot of Creole people like me , but I loved it and it was my open door and my professor . We worked together and then I transferred to another university called North Central where I finished my musical studies and so I have a bachelor's in violin performance and I'm part of a orchestral orchestra here where I currently live , and so we pick up in the fall and I'm very excited .
Speaker 2I love that for you . I feel
Cultural Identity in Education
Speaker 2like one of the things that for me , being a kid of a music program in high school I was in a show choir . So think Glee before Glee was even a thing right and we were . You know , there's no business like show business right , we did all of the things right and I feel like somewhere along the line in the last 20 or so years , music programs have been drying up across America and music is such a fundamental part of the human experience . I am excited to hear when people are still in it .
Speaker 2Right , we are a musical household . We have tons of instruments in the house . We've got a drum set , we've got a piano , we've got like I don't know , with my husband we probably got 18 keyboards and a Hammond . Like it's just , we just have lots of music around the house and I think it helps with both learning , trial and error . It's just a fun . So here's a PSA Get your kids involved in some kind of music . You'll , you'll , thank yourself later . So so you , you , you find your love and your passion for this instrument and then you embark into the workforce . Let's talk about that .
Speaker 1So when I was a senior in high school , I remember getting worried to do my master thesis or sorry , not my master thesis , my thesis , my senior thesis . And no , actually it was a year before senior year and one of my professors me and my friend she was like , hey , there's this internship called Freedom School and y'all need to go . And , professor , she is very no , no nonsense . When she knows you have potential , she's going to drag you there . And it was me and a couple of still still my girls . Today . We all , uh , we interviewed and my former boss oh my gosh , to this day he's like one of my favorite people um , he's looked at us and was like and this is when the movie Hidden Figures just came out . And he was like y'all are like the Hidden Figures for Freedom School . So we ended up doing Freedom School and I remember being in the training and it was just so many Like it's been a while since I've been around my people in that capacity .
Speaker 1It was so many Black people and growing up , I grew up around just I saw . I grew up where there was just excellent Blackness all around me . I didn't grow up and I was the only one category . That was not my experience . So being in this space reminded me of how I grew up in school Black people going hard for Black kids and education and policy and advocacy . And when I sat down and it was like we , the Freedom School , rock the Freedom School , I was like , oh my God , there was like something in me was just born and this hunger and this drive which is still there , and this fire for policy advocacy in the educational space , it just rose in me and from that day I was like , okay , I got to be a volunteer , but I also want to find my way to be in this educational space . Because I realized that wait , a minute , I thought all Black kids had my experience being around HBCUs , knowing about Black excellence . I just knew that also , oh , everyone has to have this experience . But when I realized that that was not the reality for many African-American youth , specifically African-American girls , I said okay , I have to be a part of this .
Speaker 1So that's when I tried to bridge my love for music and also what I call myself like a Malcolm X Angela Davis Davis mix , because that's what it is , it's Angela Davis mixed with some Alchemix , you know and I was like , okay , but also this very true artist and tried to bridge the two together . And so when I was in senior year , my focus was talking about how music is actually beneficial for the brain , how it impacts youth development , youth knowledge , and I started to enroll myself into jobs where it was always around some type of student something whether it was program coordination , youth development , teaching because I wanted to get as much experience actually in the school system . So whenever I get a chance to advocate for policies , I know what I'm talking about rather than just trying to go to the top actually seeing what it looks like . And that's how I got in . It was really somebody else seeing something in me that I didn't even know was there .
Speaker 1And when I got to Tennessee and we did the internship and we went back to Minneapolis and we started working with these kids , I was like wait a minute , there's something wrong . And it's not just Black kids don't want to learn or you know , black kids are just ghetto . No , our system is structured so that Black kids don't learn and they don't succeed . Black kids don't learn and they don't succeed . And even when you do have the resources , there's always this push to somehow keep the knowledge that enriches students hidden . And that's when I said okay , I got to find my way
Celebrating Heritage and the Tension of Poor Leadership
Speaker 1in this , so that's how I ended up in this space .
Speaker 2There's so much for us to talk about , I know , right . There's so much for us to talk about . I know One . I want to appreciate your journey around learning and being exposed to the fact that not everybody grew up like you , right . Because I'm the other side of the corn . My mom would say I was the one dot in a sea of oatmeal , right Like I was like the one or two black kids in our class , and it's a different kind of experience .
Speaker 2It's literally the reason why I chose to go to an HBCU . We were the first black family on our block . When we moved on the block , people threatened to . In 1984 in Pensulka , new Jersey , people threatened to sell their homes because they thought the property value of their home was going to go down because we moved on the block , and so I know those spaces well . I find it interesting that I learned to appreciate those spaces , but I also felt like something was missing my entire adolescent education .
Speaker 2Right Got to high school and I finally got around more Black people , but by that time I talked like this and they were like oh , you talk fine , I went to my HBCU and got some of that smoke too , but eventually figured it out how to balance writing , code switch and all of those things we do . I appreciate , I think , what I want to earmark in this conversation for those listeners who are not in America because we got folks all over the globe and who are not Black why it's important for us to single out and really create experiences for Black kids in education , because this is not about someone else not getting something . This is not about taking away something from someone else . This is really about how do we create experiences that are equitable and that speak to the heritage and culture of who we are , because it's usually not taught eight to three in any school .
Speaker 1It's not , and another thing , and um , so and then another . Another thing too is like black history is so rich and it's part of our identity . And you , I was very privileged and I say that not as of just any kind of word I am privileged to have went to a school named Dunbar Elementary , central Medical Mental High School , where I saw Black principals , black , you know , people that sit in our the school districts , black scientists , mathematicians , being on HBCUs all the time , understanding my own culture and the rich heritage . It gives me a sense of identity . So when I was living in Minneapolis and it's so many white people , I could still hold my own because I knew who I was and not having the academic foundation and the sense of knowing .
Speaker 1I think Ms Gloria Ladson-Billings does a great job in her research of talking about why we need to integrate . People say culturally relevant pedagogy . It's just such a fat word but it really is taking that person's culture , how they learn , how they see , how they view the world and partnering with knowledge so that they are holistic . Because , yeah , we wonder why , you know , we say you know , for lack of better words , we want to call people hood and all this , but it really is just they , they . When did anyone ever show them their true identity and then make them feel good about it ?
Speaker 2yeah , and and it's really , it's a really interesting thing . So I want to go back to like 1997 oh my gosh when , when the ?
Speaker 2I don't know if you remember the rise of the Ebonics conversation in education . Are you familiar with that ? So it , I went to Bennett college and , and , uh uh , one of my classmates and I got to go to Stanford and we met the people who created Ebonics . Now , for those of you who don't know , ebonics was a set of learning , it was a pedagogy , I guess , of like helping inner city educators help kids phonetically , and the way it came across was it was ghetto speak . But when you think about the demographic of middle kids who are being taught in metropolitan places , it's usually middle-aged Caucasian women who don't have a context , who don't understand . And so when you're trying to teach them Europhonics , jamal may say Cornost corner store because he's from Baltimore . Phonetically it's like the vernacular , it sounds different whether you're in Chicago or DC , baltimore , maryland , all of it matters . And so creating kind of like , a codex of like here's how you say it , cause here's how they're going to hear it and here's how you phonics around .
Speaker 2It was really the intention and folks was , you know , the educated brown people was not happy because they thought it was dumbing down the way we learn and I hate that the research got the rap it did , because I think it could have been very valuable if it was taken seriously .
Speaker 1I think so could have been very valuable if it was taken seriously . I think so too , and it would have opened more space . I think , like for me , for example , like my family is from Louisiana , we are French Creole on both sides , so we , honestly , the way we speak English is even more broken down . You know , like when my grandma said we'll put it in the zinc . I understand what she's saying . She's saying go take my cup and place it in the sink .
Speaker 1But unfortunately , african American culture , customs language , it's not seen as an actual embodiment of who we are . It's always seen as something less educated . Yes , yes , even when it comes to the way we are nutrition . I never , um , even yes , like , even when it comes to the way we , the way we uh , our nutrition , I never like greens and cornbread and dirty rice . Why is that what ? How is eating spam ? Like we don't talk about historically , how other cultures eat spam , but for us , like , okay , it may have a little neck bone in it , but it's still relatively a healthy meal .
Speaker 1Like anything that is not Eurocentric is always deemed negative . And when we teach Black kids and Black people that everything a part of you is negative , that creates shame , creates self-rejection , and then you wonder why you see , like in my culture , why people don't speak Creole that much anymore , or why you see people kind of walking away from their heritage or trying to . You know , we're trying to survive but you don't allow just us to be who we are authentically . And then you know you're shaming the Black kids for speaking how they speak . But that's not less educated . That's language , it's dialect and it should be . That's not less educated . That's language , it's dialect and it should be embraced , not muffled .
Speaker 2And it changes year over year . I mean , webster's and Oxford create new words every year . So , for example , one of my pet peeves as an English major was the word irregardless . It's nails in a chalkboard to me , but now it is actually a word right and I'm like , oh my God , irregardless is a double negative . Shout out to anybody who says it . It just pains my heart . But it's now a word in the English dictionary irregardless .
Speaker 2And so I think the point is that it evolves and there is something to be said about the things we have to do to maintain and have employment , because in a workforce where you don't , your name's not on the door and you're not signing the paychecks , more often than not there is a level of unspoken expectation about how you articulate , how you come across , and I think that , and that's it , is what it is right , it is , don't love it , and I understand that .
Speaker 2You know what is the poem . You know we wear the mask that grins and lies like we have to show up in certain ways to , and I'm excited about this new era of Angela Davis , malcolm X-ness that you got going on , where you know we're trying to say like , hey , listen , we don't have to do all that to do the work . The work is the work and creating space for the diversity of thought , the diversity of language , the diversity of mindset and all the things to be able to create better products . So let's talk about . Let's talk about your bad boss experience at at in education , like when . When was the first time you were like , oh man , this sucks um , thank god for therapy .
Speaker 1Um , this experience was let's see , it's 2025 . This was last year , in 2024 . I was still in Minneapolis and I was working at this
Learning to Recognize Toxic Leadership
Speaker 1organization . It wasn't it wasn't a school , but it was definitely still around youth and I was working as a training coordinator and students were working and students were , you know , work , trying to be ready for the workforce . And I loved my job because I love training , I love , I just , you know , I love that kind of vibe . So it was really great , like the actual work . But I had a leader who didn't just can I say she was a bit toxic , just very , very toxic . And I think , as a person , like , if I knew her on the sidelines , it would have been great . I remember in my interview she was really excited , like we were talking , and she was like , oh , you went to Howard , oh , this , that this , you're going to be a perfect fit , like this , that Our students need to see that kind of Black excellence or whatever , and I was like , okay , great , and she was black , like me . So I thought , oh , this is going to be good , this is going to be great .
Speaker 1But my issue with this boss was that every time I try to propose because by nature , I do have like a very scientific mind . So anytime I'm sitting in a meeting , I'm always thinking about what's the trend in the data set ? Why is this the common theme ? So I , and then I always like to propose solution . That's just solutions oriented . So I would , you know , try to propose solutions and suggestions and it will be taken as you're trying to get ahead . You're trying , you're not being a team player , you're trying to overstep , and so I would always try to ask follow-up questions to get clarification . And then , to be honest , I think good leadership is strong vision and strategy . And this leader lacked strategy , like she lacked vision , lacked strategy , like she lacked vision , and everything was always all over the place . And the way my brain works is very one plus two plus three , and that's also just the violinist in me .
Speaker 1So when things are off rhythm , I'm always just asking for clarification and I was taken as oh , we already talked about this , why you don't get it , and that made me feel bad , because I was feeling like , well , you know , it's something , it's something wrong with me . It's like am I a problem ? Like why , why are we having ? You know , why am I being so attacked , and you know it . Just , I remember one day and this is before I quit there was this email where she was like me and the HR , we need to have a talk Now , mind you , I'm so mind boggled Like what am I doing so wrong ?
Speaker 1I'm showing up to work on time , you know trying my best , you know trying to be , you know , a team player . Yes , I'm very introverted , so I can maybe see from her end , maybe me just like . I guess working on projects alone made me look like I wasn't a team player . But that wasn't the case . I showed up to team meetings , I would ask questions and it just seemed like I was never able to meet the match and it felt like personal feelings were getting mixed into the task at hand and I would just feel so confused . And when we had our one-on-ones , there were these long drawn out meetings about . You know , I don't understand you , I don't get you , I don't . And it was stressful , wait , wait wait , wait , wait , wait , wait .
Speaker 2She said you were telling her , did you not understand her ? She was saying that to you , she was saying that to me .
Speaker 1Oh , she . And then one day she took the Zoom meeting . She was like I'm frustrated . I was like what am I doing ? And I was talking to two of my friends Cause I was like what am I doing ? And I was talking to two of my friends because I was like , okay , well , let me assess , maybe she's seeing something that I don't see . So I would talk to two of my friends that's still my girls today and I said y'all , okay , this is what happened . Tell me what I did wrong . And they was like yo , she tripping . Like you have every right to ask the following question If she said one thing and now she's changing it , you have every right to get clarification on that .
Speaker 1If you see potential like oh , our data needs to be stronger here . Our data is weak here , that's okay . She needs to be a leader and see that as oh , you're just trying to help , especially with nonprofit . You've got to make sure your numbers are strong . Grants are attached to it , sponsorships are attached . So the better our data , the better our grants , the better our money .
Speaker 1That's what I'm thinking in my head , but this person is taking it as you're trying to be ahead , you're trying to do the most , you're the problem . Problem . And I was like , okay , I can't dim my light . I can't dim my light so that you don't feel threatened . I gotta show up as Amber and I can't help it . Okay , if I'm um , you know , strong , because I'm not strong in every area , but in the areas I'm strong , I'm gonna . I'm not gonna dim my light just because you're threatened . And I didn't want to make it that simple , like , oh , you're just threatened .
Speaker 1But after talking to my therapist and my friends , I did realize that that was pretty toxic . It was somebody who was intimidated by what I carried , even though I was comfortable with just being training coordinator . I didn't want to be director of programs and I didn't want to be director of programs and I didn't want that kind of stress . I just wanted to be myself and show up as I am . And this person , you know and I was disappointed because she was my race I thought surely this would be a great pair , but I was wrong and you know I was so mad about myself is it was this other job that my friend was actually trying to get me , and I beat myself up to this day about it because it was a job that was focused on like policy for healthcare though , and I was like I'm not going to get that Like , so I sabotaged myself and I took this one .
Speaker 1So I sabotaged myself and I took this one , and the day my last day at the job he walks in , the guy that wanted to was working with me to get me hired , walks to the door and I was like dang , I should have went with that company . I probably would have been much happier . But I learned from my mistake and I wish her well . I mean , she was funny , she was super fun . Like when she was good , she was good , but then when she was bad , she was , she was bad and it was just rough . It was a long 90 days .
Speaker 2I'm still stuck on . I don't understand you , so let me , I'm gonna ask you just to , so we're going to play like I'm your HR person , okay , so when it comes to your job , amber , are you meeting the tasks and deadlines ? Yes , yes , and what feedback do you ?
Speaker 1get on the work that you submit to her . Zero . It's nothing about my feedback .
Speaker 2It's always about my personality , my character , trying to understand me how is that affecting your ability to work with your other team members ?
Speaker 1I can't , because even I feel like my other team member and her have some type of like . I can tell that they're more closer and I can tell that sometimes it does . I could be in my head , but definitely moments where it felt like they were talking about me or they would even make comfort . I remember even this one time where she made a joke about her friend who wears a lot of makeup and I do tend to be dressed , you know , every day Like I like to dress nice . That's how I was raised and it felt like a personal dig , low key , but maybe I'm just a little sensitive on that . But nothing was ever about my work , nothing was ever about my leadership . It was always about my personality , who I was .
Speaker 2So a couple of things . One thing that is really important for us to recognize is that , when it comes to people being , I believe that 95% of bad boss behavior is a product of some kind of fear . Right , if I'm afraid of what you know , or if I'm afraid of what you know is going to expose me , I'm going to do what I can to prevent you from poking holes in my facade , because what I've known has gotten me this far , and if you come in here upstaging that right , then I got a problem , because people are going to look at me like why am I here ? There's also a possibility of her having imposter syndrome . So if I don't feel like I'm supposed to be here and you're more qualified , then I'm scared . Somebody's going to find out and they're going to have you instead of me , right ?
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2I think one of the things that comes to mind for me too is that in third grade I was so excited so I went to a small magnet school in Jersey and it was one of those things where it's kind of like charter schools now , like it was a lottery , and my brother and I both got in and he was in fifth grade . I was in kindergarten and so as I moved up I was in the third grade and I was looking so forward to third grade because it was the one Black teacher in the school . Never forget it , mrs Young . And when I tell you , mrs Young ain't like us , it was like the three of us , the three black kids , we were always on detention . We always didn't get to go to recess .
Speaker 2And when we had to go to detention , when we had detention , like while other kids were at recess , we had to copy word for word this one page out of this old social studies book called page 184 . I'll never forget it . His book called page 184 . I'll never forget it . I'm sure Karan Lowe and Sheree Taylor remember us having to copy page 184 over and over again . This was back when corporal punishment was approved and she was so mean and I used to come crying home to my mom going she's so mean and she doesn't like me . I remember her saying you think you're all that , but you're not .
Speaker 1I know what you're doing . I'm like I'm not doing anything . You think you all that . And if I do , and I'm supposed to think hard for myself .
Speaker 2Listen , it was such an interesting thing , and I don't know why it is , but I think we as Black people don't often recognize how many people have this , what I would call self-loathing , right . So I'm not trying to be Black and I'm mad that you're trying to be Black , so let's get this on .
Speaker 1You know what I mean , or even how . I remember in grad school we had this book called the Permanence of Racism and it talked about how , when people of oppressed groups don't really when they have been under their oppressor all they do , how black misogyny looks on black women , or , in your experience or my experience , how you think , oh , I have a black teacher or a black boss , it's going to be great and , it's to be honest , my most toxic jobs have been with my own , that's interesting , yep .
Speaker 2So I recently made my kids watch and I'm going to have them read it to Animal Farm . Animal Farm is like this great depiction of how , like the bad boss right . So you got these animals and you're on the farm and the farmer's really a drunkard and you know they end up kicking the boss off the farm and then the pigs self-appoint themselves as the leaders and then they end up becoming the bad , bad leaders , and so animal farm is literally , like psychologically is one of the best um epitomes , if you will , yeah , depictions of bad leadership and like in this concept of like how I'm going to take on the oppression that I saw to make myself feel better , because that's the only way I know how to do it Like it's just , it's a fascinating thing . If you get a chance , read it . I think there are like three different versions of the movie and I think there's a . Seth Rogen is about to reboot it for like the fourth time next year , but it's a . It's a really , really good story and it and it also is it's interesting how it fits culturally and politically today . I'll just leave it there .
Speaker 2So how did you confront this Like ? Did you ever confront her Like ? Listen , you know I don't understand what's going on . It seems like you have a problem with me . Oh , I want to go back to talking about how they were talking
Challenges for Post-Pandemic Graduates
Speaker 2about you .
Speaker 2Like , don't be surprised , folks , when you have a leader that's been there a long time and they've got a tribe of people and they're closer . More often than not these people go out to drink or whatever , and it's not foreign to have cliques at work between leaders and their subordinates . It's not foreign . And if you're not in the in crowd , you have to be very , very careful , very cognizant about what you say , who you're talking to , the conversation you're having , because it ends up being , you know , someone going back and saying , well , she said this and she said that . And more often than not , that second person in the trio , if you will , that second person in the seat of like being a part of the clique , is usually the informant to the head of the clique to try to create one , secure their position , but also create , you know , more tension and more friction , if you will .
Speaker 1Yes , ma'am .
Speaker 2So I hate that . I hate that . It's a reality , but it's a reality that I've seen quite a bit . So tell me what you learned about yourself , Amber , in that situation .
Speaker 1Well , one thing I learned about myself was that I had a lot of oh my gosh , I feel tears coming . I had a lot of man . I didn't know how to stand up for myself . I had a lot of man . I didn't know how to stand up for myself . I really didn't . I didn't know how to defend Amber .
Speaker 1Because of some things that happened in my childhood I was trying so hard to not be so . I kept fixing myself and fixing and fixing . I didn't have the eyes then to see that she was a problem . I automatically said I was the problem and it's my fault . If only I did it then this it's on me , it's my fault , I'm bad . And that was the language of shame . And that was that core belief , that something was wrong with me , because why does she not understand me , was wrong with me because why am I , why does she not understand me ?
Speaker 1And because of that experience it took me on another wave of my journey to really deal with that shame , that something's wrong with me . Now we're , we're human , so we're not we're . We're always going to have areas to grow . But excuse me here , according to my belief system , I am fearfully and wonderfully made , so there is nothing about me . That is inherently wrong . And because I'm just human , I have value and my value automatically deserves respect . So this last year I really had to do a lot of growing inside of me . First I had to take responsibility of what got me to that job in the first place One . I didn't believe the other job would open up because of years and years and years and trying and trying and it's not working . So I sabotaged myself there . And then I took a role and I didn't catch the signs when the retention was high , because when she was talking to me in my interview she was saying how she automatically started blaming the other training coordinators who left like they were the problem . That was a red flag .
Speaker 2I missed it . Listen , let's stop there . When the leader who's interviewing you is willing to bad talk the previous people , nine times out of ten you will be a victim as soon as you leave too . When they're looking for somebody to pin the bodies on when you're gone , it's usually gonna be you and , honestly , amber , you hit it nail on the head . Yes , ma'am , it is a serious red flag . When a leader is either bad talking the previous people , bad talking the people that are there and saying you're going to kind of come in and fix everybody . Those are like two red flags for me , especially if it's not in the context of care and concern and opportunity , but more in blame , I run , run If you're interviewing from people like that , run .
Speaker 1No , run Sprint Right .
Speaker 2And I think I love what you said about . You know this concept of shame , right ? We've heard a lot of research on it . I do think there's a really fine line that many of us don't know between taking responsibility for a mistake and feeling like we're always wrong , right , and that there's something wrong with us . Doing something wrong is different than something being wrong with you , and a lot of times , these , these poor leadership situations will first isolate you , so you're first going to feel like you're alone . Yeah , that's like that warning sign Number one , where you feel like you're the only person that's ever going through this and no one understands . That's the first thing that happens , and then the second thing is making you feel like you're crazy , like like there's no , no , universe where you ?
Speaker 2will fit , where people appreciate you and that you can survive Like that's the first two steps into this is what sucks . And and if you can't recover from those two places where you find people that help you not feel lonely and then also realize that you're not crazy , you will go deeper and deeper into the dark side of having a bad employment situation because you didn't kind of cure those first two . So , amber , when it comes to your toxic boss situation , you talked about having to deal with yourself and dig deep and really evaluate some of your ways of both approaching it and your values . I'm sure you had some skills that you learned . Can you talk to us about the skills that you learned , while you know taking away from that situation ?
Speaker 1Yes , one of the first skills that I've learned is how to notify when the bon and the leader is toxic , and typically I always think about narcissistic traits . First , communication skills , ability to and it's not just personality , but it's leadership skills . How are you as a leader ? Are you a visionary ? Do you explain visions well ? Are you patient with your staff ? Are you respectful to your staff ? How long does your staff stay ? So , being able to develop the eyes to see , the skill of saying no is in development . But this is a skill I'm learning is to say no and to not be afraid to lose . Like what if I lose ? Like what if ? Hey , it wasn't for you , but you're still worth value , you're still worth respect . And another skill I've learned is patience when making decisions , and I love research . So I research every company now before I apply , and I do a good deep dive first , and I just have that ability now to eat to , even though I get a little nervous and scared , that ability now to eat too , even though I get a little nervous and scared , to honor what I need . I'm learning to say nope , I need this and that is what I'm going to accept , and if that means I have to still contract for a little while until I find it . That's fine . But I'm not going to just place myself in the in the lines then where I don't have to . So , um , and I think the last skill I've learned is it's okay to be in a healthy space everywhere you go . And I think I love the family I come from . But I think one thing I'm blessed to know my great grandparents and my grandparents they all was a victim of Jim Crow . They had to accept a lot I don't got to and I don't got to . And if I don't have to accept , I'm just not . They did it so that I don't have to . So I'm learning how and I even told this to my mom me and my mom are like besties . I love that lady . Oh my God , I love her so , so much . But I remember telling her I said mama , you don't have to just take , you don't have to just take . What do you need ? Take what you need . And I still get anxiety when I have to do it . I still do , I'm definitely still in the process , but God dog it .
Speaker 1If it's a fight , I'm going to pray my way . God , give me the strength to say no If I cannot do it on my own strength . God , help me to not receive unhealthy and give me the grace to be where your blessing is , and if I have to go without for a little bit , I thank you for your provision . That is what I pray , because other than that , I would just walk into hell , because I fear lack and I don't want to be without , and that's the real thing , because we have other needs . But I'm like I remember , I'm like well , god provides for me . First and foremost , god is going to take care of me , and then these other earthly things are just things he uses . But I'm not going to sit here as a child of the most high and deal with peasantry . No , so those are my skill sets .
Speaker 2I'm not going to deal with peasantry . Let me tell you something Aside from you preaching a sermon . We'll pass the plate later .
Speaker 2But the deal with peasantry , that's it for me right there , and I think it's a beautiful place to be in to realize that you don't have to accept substandard , you don't have to accept these places of both neglect or toxicity . That's really the point of this entire dialogue is like , look , you've got to know . When some things are like , ah , it's inconvenient but it's not going to break you , like there's a difference between that , and then there's like , no , this is this . Is like standing next to open radiation and you need to get to cover and and being able to know the difference between the two . I think there's also something to be said too , amber , for we all want good leaders . I don't know that we all know what they look like , yeah , and I don't know that we all know what a narcissist is right . I think that , knowing what I know , folks , we can often put misnomers on people and mislabels on people , but I do think it's important to know the kind of leader that you need .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Because that's really a big skill is learning the kind of leader that you need . If you are someone who needs accountability to get stuff done , working with someone who not necessarily micromanages , but at least keeps you accountable and keeps you on a cadence is a good thing . If you are the kind of person that , like I , just want to go off and do something and come back and let you know it's done , you need a leader that is more laissez-faire , right . And if your leader is fragile , then you've got to also consider adapting your style just to make them less fearful . Like you can't change what people are afraid of , but you can accommodate to the extent that it's not going to completely , you know , make you crazy , right .
Speaker 2So if your leader is batty and they're like I don't know what she's doing , I haven't seen her in weeks , every week , here's an update . Let me just update you . I'm going to write this down . Let me update you so you don't think I'm crazy and you know I'm over here working . There's there is a give and take where we can help assuage some fears , but you can't control what they're afraid of yeah and that balance is , I think , really , really important .
Speaker 2At least , that's what I found . But I've also found that some sometimes it's not bad leadership , it's a bad fit for the kind of leader that yeah , that's real , that's real , that's real . Right . So now , what's happening now with you from an employment space ? Where are you ? What are you hoping for ? What are you praying for ?
Speaker 1I'm in the transition for sure . I'm currently contracting in the property management space as an assistant property manager Very different from everything I've ever done , but it's definitely given me a lot of skills that I need for my future . But I know deep down that my I just I don't know how it's all gonna happen , but I really feel like my dream . If I was to shape my dream role , I really am looking to work at some type of mission-driven focus , but a role that is where I get to research and collaborate and plan and strategize and or you know , analyze policies . Or do I love qualitative research ? Oh , my God , god , I do that work every day just because I love it . Now , every time my part manager is like can you collect the debt got you ? You don't even have to ask me .
Speaker 1So I love doing like surveys , questionnaires , I like serving and interviewing people . It's just fun for me and I love to go back , john Boyd , and then see how we can create and shape better systems and structures for people . As an introvert though , I do realize that it's a superpower being introvert , but it's hard because a lot of roles that you need to kind of get started they don't really work well for an introverted personality , so that's been really difficult . But I'm hoping for a just a really good role in area of research or policy , or just something where I can get my hands on a mission driven , focus opportunity to make our world cry less , a little bit more . So that's what I'm hoping for . And then let me ask you let me ask .
Speaker 2So you said that some of the roles that you're looking for aren't good for introverts . Give me an idea of what those might ?
Speaker 1be , oh , teaching Number one . No , oh , my God Today , oh my God , I would be like it's just God , give me energy . My energy is drained . My energy is drained , I'm tired , I'm depleted Energy Because , as an introvert , your energy comes from within . So when you have 30 people every hour , on the hour , you start to lose energy , it drains you , you get fatigued , you get tired and you have to really keep up . It's my god , you're , you're done .
Speaker 1So teaching anything where it's people front facing , no , like any job where people are the not not like small group like . I love small group instruction , like small group students . It works really well with my nervous system . But when you have just a board of people all the time , it's not good for introverts because it just drains . And I think introverts we are always misinterpreted as antisocial .
Speaker 1But I need an hour . I've been with y'all since nine this morning . Let me have my hour lunch . I don't want to sit with the . I mean , I want to sit with y'all but , like , give me time to just recharge . I lose my appetite . I'm going to stay not eating because I'm stressed , because I don't I have , I need a moment . I need a moment . So , but jobs that are great for introverts like researcher jobs , policy jobs , anything where it's a my mind is more involved than my , than my actual . Like talking is so beneficial , like the more you tell me do tasks . I'm so happy and I'm self-started , I'm very I can do it myself . So I'll just give me an office , close my door . It'll be done in an hour . Just let me be Executive assistant . That's not good for introverts .
Speaker 2So it's funny because I am married to an introvert and I have a mother who's also an introvert , and so I am not . And it's hilarious what you say in terms of just managing the energy . One of the best things I've seen in executives that are introverts is that they are able to find ways to turn on and then they reserve time to turn off Right , because they need that buffer , because they need that space , and they plan it in their day of like , okay , I've got this much energy , how much more energy ? It's kind of like a Tesla charger , like you charge the car , like , okay , I'm going this far , but now I got to charge the car and I would .
Speaker 2I'll be the first to say that a lot of our environments are not built for introverts . They're not built to appreciate the need for space and time and quiet . So , yeah , I think it's a it's a very loud world and I'd be interested to hear from any educator that's listening to this . You know those of you who are introverts , I'd be you know , how do you manage your energy with ? Put it in the chat , put it in the comments . I'm curious because , especially if you have , you know , large classes , large class sizes , especially in the early years , like elementary school , where they've got all the energy in the world . How do you all manage that ? I'm very , very curious .
Speaker 1I think for me , um , now , I love tutoring and I love small group instruction is my favorite and I just , I just find that , um , students learn better when it's not so many students they really do , and teachers teach better because we're not having to deal with all the things . But for me , when lunch came , I would go way off somewhere you would not find me in a prep period If I was able to have my things done . That was my time to recharge , just go outside and just be to myself , and then I'm an empath . So I feel , on top of being introverted , I feel a lot of people's emotions and it weighs on me , which is a blessing for my calling , but it's just a lot . So I really cherish my anytime I get a moment to myself , I take it . I get a moment to myself , I take it . And even when I do now , like oh my gosh , like people come in , like yesterday was so many people talking to me about their rent and you know , anytime I needed to take a moment to go walk I take it because I need to relax and , you know , because I feel like as an introvert , if I don't get that time , I start , you start to see another side of me where I'm like
Finding Strength and Walking Away
Speaker 1, not as talkative . I'm really short , really , you know snappy , and you don't want that . You want the happy me , the recharge me . So give me a moment , let me go eat my salad , let me get my appetite , cause you'll lose your appetite if it's too much stimulation . So you're not eating appetite , because you'll lose your appetite if it's too much stimulation , so you're not eating , which makes you hangry , which makes it all bad . So it's just a lot . But in my career , um , I think I'm finding myself .
Speaker 1It's been really hard , I think , being a post-pandemic grad , navigating the , the layers of that , like these last five years in the workforce for a lot of us have been hard . Say more , why ? Well , for starters , we have a huge transition in generations . So we have a generation coming in and a generation coming out where our generation , we want autonomy , we want to work , but we don't want our work to take up our life , and that's fighting with some . We want autonomy , we want to work , but we don't want our work to take up our life , and that's fighting with some old school methods where you just tolerate In our generation . We want to enjoy our life . We want a Spain , experience with our work in America .
Speaker 1But then you have a lot of expectations asked of us that we're not getting chances . So you're asking us to come in with five years of experience , where we spent a lot of time in school , and I think school should become as experience , because you're doing projects , you're doing research , you're doing a lot of things in school that you don't even do half of it on the job when you get the job , and all that knowledge and all that experience should be counted as work experience . Um , and I don't know how much I can say about this , but our current state of our nation , we , our generation , our like that 2020 , 2021 , grad we've had this experience twice already . So we come out of school , we're dealing with so-and-so as leader , and now we have layoffs and this , that , and now we're back at it again . So , because I had the layoff earlier , the current president , ma'am the current president .
Speaker 2The current president .
Speaker 1Yes , we've had this experience twice , so we're not able to get enough experience because we keep getting laid off .
Speaker 1Wow , but then we have the experience we have , so our resumes look hoppy , but a lot of people are not thinking about oh , we've just had a really crazy experience over these last five years and it's taken a toll on recent grads and they're getting them getting experience . And then it's just you know , we're changing industries , we're going from industrial to tech , and you know it's . We're changing industries , we're going from industrial to tech , and you know it's just a lot , and it just seems like they want so much of you as a , as an applicant . It's just too much , and so I think all of us are just like you know what ? Let me just move to France , move to go , go outside of my own country , just so I can live and have a calm life , because it's just too much , it's a lot .
Speaker 1So it's been hard for me getting through doors . Um , especially in the industry I want to get into , I kind of wish I still lived in DC , because I think maybe my location would help a lot , but in terms of getting into , oh , oh my God , yes , but I was burnt out when I finished grad school and I was like I need to be somewhere where it's a little slow . But it's been hard , it's been so stressful .
Speaker 2I'm fascinated . I didn't even think about the post-pandemic effect on your generation and the things of having to kind of move around in the shuffleboard of employment . It's really , really interesting . It's stressful . Amber , if there's one thing you want to leave with the folks listening about your experience in surviving toxic leadership and finding yourself and being resilient from shame what's the thing you want them to hear ?
Speaker 1I'm going to be honest Toxic environments , toxic people , toxic spaces they deteriorate the humanity of who we are . And if you don't have to stay , don't . I believe in being resilient . Resilient looks like I was resilient in leaving and protecting myself and taking care of myself and choosing myself or strategizing , so I don't have to stay If you can take it from someone who has been in many toxic environments and spaces . The moment you have that gut feeling , listen to it , honor your voice , put your career and your life in the hands of God . He will take care of you and he will place you where your blessing is .
Speaker 1One thing I have learned from toxic environments and toxic spaces they will never get better . There is not a 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 step plan to break out . That's like telling someone that's in an abusive relationship how to survive . You can't . We are made , we are human . Dr Anita Phillips says it best we are the garden within and we have to realize that when you're in an unhealthy environment , it takes away from you . So flee , run or strategize so that you can actually be healthy and take care of yourself .
Speaker 1And if you have a boss or a leader , are you in an interview and you starting to notice them , reflect , ask the question . I don't believe in using chat GPC for everything , but ask it to give you questions to avoid toxic environment . Ask the questions . Ask the questions , do the reviews , do the research . Ask the Lord to give you wisdom if you believe in that . If you don't , fine , ask friends , ask people on LinkedIn . Hey , what is your experience here ? Get the research , because once you sign that dotted line , nobody has the nervous system energy to go through that cycle looking for a job again . So take your time and I'm learning . Now I'm definitely in the middle . Because of my inability to trust that better opportunities were open for me , I ended up walking through unhealthy ones and I have to take ownership for that . So now I'm in the limbo of it all , but I'm still good . Rent still paid , gas , still we good , but don't stay .
Speaker 2I love it , Amber . This has been such a great conversation . I really appreciate you for coming on and sharing with us both your experience and your wisdom . That gives a wrap for today . You've been listening to so . So your boss now ? What Thanks ? And remember , don't let your boss suck the life out of you . Today's episode is brought to you by Natalie Parker enterprises , where we shape the future and unlock potential by helping organizations and people work together to do good work . Find out more at the Natalie parkercom or , if you'd like to be a sponsor , email us at info at thenatalieparkercom .
