So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
Bad bosses happen to good people. Join entrepreneur, corporate trailblazer-turned-business strategist, and podcast host Natalie Parker as she unpacks real-life stories of tough leaders and toxic work environments. With Natalie’s expertise in navigating corporate chaos and building strategies for success, this podcast offers practical advice and actionable insights to help you turn workplace challenges into opportunities for growth. Whether you’re dealing with micromanagers, toxic cultures, or just plain bad vibes, this is your go-to guide for taking control, thriving, and proving that when your boss sucks, your success doesn’t have to.
So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
S3 E4: Change the Space, Don’t Let It Change You
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What happens when a brilliant, multi-talented leader collides with toxic organizational dynamics? Kevin Taylor takes us on a powerful journey through his remarkable career spanning education, finance, ministry, and clean energy leadership to uncover timeless wisdom about thriving amid challenging circumstances.
Taylor's story begins with his natural gift for education—tutoring at Tuskegee University before following a winding path through corporate finance, charter school leadership, and ultimately facing a defining battle with an unsupportive board. Rather than dwelling solely on the difficulties, Taylor demonstrates how these experiences shaped his leadership philosophy: "We spend a lot of time trying to be duplicates when God has called us to be originals."
The most compelling moments emerge when Taylor discusses maintaining personal convictions amidst pressure to compromise. "Who you are ought not change as a result of the space that you're in, but because of who you are, you should change the space," he challenges listeners. This perspective transforms how educators might view their classroom challenges—not as obstacles, but as opportunities to demonstrate what authentic leadership looks like.
Taylor's wisdom particularly shines through his practical approach to implementing change. Understanding that roughly 20% will support change immediately, 20% will resist no matter what, and 60% can be influenced either way, he encourages focusing energy on the persuadable middle rather than becoming discouraged by vocal opposition. This framework offers a realistic but hopeful approach to navigating educational environments where resistance often feels overwhelming.
If you've ever found yourself questioning whether your efforts make a difference or wrestling with toxic leadership dynamics, Taylor's perspective will renew your sense of purpose and provide practical tools for turning challenges into opportunities for growth. His forthcoming book, "A Charge to Keep," promises to further explore these leadership principles bridging corporate and ministry contexts—wisdom desperately needed in today's educational landscape.
Actionable Takeaways
- Follow your passion—it will “tell on you”
- Don’t fear pivoting across industries; it builds perspective
- Great leadership demands consistency and clear values
- Be willing to test your skepticism—it might lead to transformation
- Unionization often signals a breakdown in trust, not laziness
Resources & Mentions
- The Third Life of Grange Copeland by Alice Walker
- “Your passions will tell on you”
- Rev. Taylor's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/revkttaylor/
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The Mission of Impactful Teaching
Speaker 1It's the kid in your class who got on your last nerves and is now paying attention and is feeling good about him or herself and comes to you at the end of the year and gives you a big hug and says , thank you . It's the kid that you taught two or three years ago that you now , a sudden , you've got them in a parent-teacher conference for the first time and they are there and engaged with their student Like you've got to celebrate those things .
Speaker 2Have you ever had a person in your life that has just done like a million things , just a million different things , and have done them all well ? That's my next guest . I've known Kevin Taylor since college and him having gone to Tuskegee , me at Bennett . We met at a conference in California of all places and we've been friends ever since . He's been in several different industries , from finance to media to education , and also he's a minister . He's a pastor , a longtime pastor . He's currently pastoring in Albany , new York , the oldest black church in the Northeast , which was also a stop in the underground railroad Israel African-American Methodist Episcopal church , and he's currently the chief financial and talent officer of the Rise Networks in New Haven , connecticut . He and his wife and kids live in New England and I'm happy to have him on the show . Kevin , welcome to the show . I'm so glad to have you .
Speaker 1Thank you so much for having me . I'm excited to be here .
Speaker 2Listen . I can't even , I don't even want to say out loud how long we've known each other . Like it's actually it's , it's , it's .
Speaker 1We don't talk about that . Decades is the answer . Decades .
Speaker 2Decades . But one of the things that I think is fascinating about you know , one of the reasons we wanted to have you is because you have such a robust career from you know , executive roles to finance , to education and ministry . Talk to us about , like , the journey from you know all the way from college to to now , like how , how did all of the things happen ?
Speaker 1So so again , thank you for having me . I'm really excited to be on the show and , like I'm excited for the work that the Lord has blessed your hand to , to be able to achieve it really is truly impressive . If we go back to , you know , that conference on race at Stanford University , where you were at Bennett and I was at Tuskegee , to think about what the Lord would have done in our lives through that time is just amazing to this , many years later , still be able to connect on topics that matter to us . Major , having grown up in Ann Arbor , michigan , and had a strong math background , and my political science professor said that there are some students in political science who need help in math , and so I began just tutoring for free students in the political science department , some of whom I'm friends with still today . And one day the math department chair saw me in the office saying , hey , you should become the math department chair . Saw me in the office saying , hey , you know you should become the math department chair . And I'm like , well , the political science department and the math department are next to each other . But like why should I ? Like you got math students already . And so he said you have to go and apply . And so I was a work-study student as the math department tutor , and so I work with one teacher and I would have like 50 students a night just tutoring this one particular teacher . That if you came to my tutoring that you would get extra credit in his class . And so , like , I just had a number of students I share that story code because , like , I think it's true that your passions will tell on you , and so , like , while I was there for political science and I'm thankful that political science teaches you to think I think education has always been the thing that has been a part of who I am and is in my DNA , and so , like that , that tutoring translated into work in organizations that were focused on tutoring .
Speaker 1I moved to Los Angeles and was working for a magazine publisher in finance , and when I decided to move to New York , I could have continued in that same company , but I said no , let me take these finance skills to a different company . And I worked for the Princeton Review , which at the time was working to be able to help students to be able to pass those high-stakes tests . And I wasn't even in that division . I was in the division that was working to help students pass their high-stakes end of the year tests , but I trained to be an SAT and ACT teacher and that was just a part of who I am and who I was and like . So I did that on the side and it just , it just became something that was a part of me .
Speaker 1And when I moved from corporate America to the charter school sector , it was in part to bring the corporate finance experience that I had gained , working in multiple places in LA and in New York , to a different sector . And I admit being initially skeptical . Child of an educator , my sister graduated Bennett like you has now 23 years in the Charlotte-Metalcum-Gore Public Schools post-Bennett . I'm not sure about this charter school thing , but I know that they're getting results for children of color , and so what is it that I can do to make a difference ? And so charters led to more charters and more responsibility . Ultimately , I became the chief executive officer of a charter school in Boston that had unionized and from there , when the organization was stable , I moved into a different sector , a different chapter of my life , where we focused on clean energy , and so from there I'm now in a role back in education , but like with this strong sense of understanding that clean energy is going to change the face and the economy of america and if the people of color are not at the table , they're going to miss out . So that is a , like you know , summary level of how I got there .
Speaker 1There are , uh , twists and turns along the way , but one of my favorite poems talks about the idea of the tapestry .
Speaker 1Um , that um that ties us together .
Speaker 1Tells the story of this littleestry that that ties us together .
Speaker 1Tells the story of this little boy who's sitting on his grandmother's lap and he's saying , grandma , what are you doing ? She's knitting . And he says that doesn't look too good . And then she says , well , go run ahead , boy , play . And so then she , when she's finished , she calls him to to the to her lap and she shows him what she has knitted to her lap . And she shows him what she has knitted and she says that , you know , you see , on the underside , looking at all these colors and knots were coming together didn't make sense to you . But once you saw how the picture unfolded , once you see the beauty of what has been displayed , it becomes clearer how these colors , these things that have seemed insignificant , have made for the beautiful tapestry that is before us , and so I look forward to the day where God is going to sit me on his lap and say to me you know , well done my good and faithful servant , but to be able to see how all those things have prepared me for what it is that he would want me to do .
Speaker 2Listen , there's a . There's a book , I think it was , by Alice Walker . It's called the Third Life of Grange Copeland and the art of the conversation is that this man has lived multiple lives and , based on your conversation , you , sir , have lived multiple . I think you probably know .
Speaker 1Fifth life Listen , we only have one life to live and I'm trying to make the most of it . I really am , and it is remarkable to think about the number of experiences that I've had and the number of people I met along the way , people who I still keep in touch with . But I'm thankful .
Speaker 2I really am grateful for where the love is , kevin you said something because we're going to get to the fact that you've had some bad leaders and that it sucked . But you said something because we're going to get to like the fact that you've had some some bad leaders in that . But you said something that I thought was interesting . You said that you were skeptical about charter schools . Now you know , in this season we're talking to educators and we're talking about what makes their jobs difficult in the personalities and the situations . I have not met an educator who doesn't love educating others like I haven't . We haven't come across people who are just in it for the money or in it for the prestige . Right , that's not . You're not going to find a lot of that in this field . But tell me what specifically made you skeptical
Kevin Taylor's Educational Journey
Speaker 2about the charter school situation .
Speaker 1And so I think charter schools have been accused of cherry picking the best and so that they're getting the results that they have because they have taken the best from districts . And then there's also the argument from charters that they're taking money from the traditional public schools and so , as a result , they are bad and they are hurting districts . And then , of course , the idea that charters are backed by , in many cases , by philanthropy , and that philanthropy has its own ideas of how students are to act and to succeed . And so what is the role in which those things come together the district , the money , the students and , of course , charters have an opportunity in exchange for good results . You don't necessarily have to live by union rules . Look , my parents were both union .
Speaker 1I remember when the teachers went on strike in Ann Arbor in my sophomore year , like I'm clear on what unions are and what they mean , and so you know . But again , those not so much things counting against the charter , but like , okay , is this something that I really want to dove my toe into ? But then on the other side of the equation , you have strong results and you have communities of color benefiting from the work that is being done by the students and by the staff in those schools . And so can you deny the fact that , for whatever reason , the longer school day , the structures that are in place , the commitment to children of color can you deny that it is actually making a meaningful impact and changing someone's life ? And so to me it was something worth exploring .
Speaker 1It was something that if I could bring my skill to that , I could actually benefit from and I can learn more about , and that's what happened . And so I now know differently about the skimming or cherry picking . That's not true . I know differently about the relationship with unions . There are some charter schools that are unionized , particularly in the Chicago area . I know differently now about the role of philanthropy . Though it can be supportive , I also understand that it can be corrosive and like . I needed to be able to understand and explore those things , and so I'm better for that experience , and it has taught me a lot , particularly in this day and age , about the importance of diversity , equity and inclusion . Like that is a term that I learned first in my charter school space , so I'm thankful for .
Speaker 2So you mentioned unionization . I myself am a Teamsters baby . My dad was the shop steward of Teamsters , local 830 in Philadelphia One of the things , both having been a child of the Teamsters and the child of Union Air in Philadelphia , but also as an HR professional . What I know and you tell me if it's different in education , but what I know in most cases people unionize because of bad leadership , either because they're unheard , they're not represented . What have you found in the space in the terms of the relationship between this you know , the attempts to unionize and the leadership contingency ?
Speaker 1And so , like you unions , I think unions have done a lot for America , and so I do not deny the role that unions have played in making life better for all of us .
Speaker 1The 40-hour work week , the commitment to health and safety , the labor day the benefits and pension , retirement , like all of those things the union has brought to us , but like any good thing , there are also excesses . But if we talk specifically about City on a Hill , so that was a school that I took over as the CEO in 2018 . I was the fourth leader in four years , and so the founder of the school stepped down to be able to transition , to be able to focus on other aspects of her life , as she had the exact right to do . Her successor came in and talked about the need to change the pay structure that the um , that the organization had committed to under the previous leader , and like he was ran out of town . Like that was , like this is we ? We just spent time talking about this um , this , this , this um , this , this space structure , and like you're going to change it . No , no , we're not having this . And then so he was easily he was replaced by an interim and it was under that interims leadership not her fault , just interim leadership that the staff said enough is enough Like there is .
Speaker 1We have moved too far from our North star and the attraction of collective bargaining , the attraction of leadership that we can be at the table and making the decisions , that attraction is enough to make us open to the overtures of the Boston Teachers' Union , and so in 2018 , in February , valentine's Day , the teachers gave notice that they were unionizing and the board recognized that the right of the Boston Teachers Union to collectively bargain on their behalf in April .
Speaker 1I was hired in July , and so among the sector , there was a great fear that there was going to be unionization at other charters and what could be done in the sector . And there were charters that had been unionized in the state , but they had been unionized by the UAW or the IEE . You're now talking about a professional teachers union , one of the oldest in the country and certainly the oldest one in Massachusetts , and this is the first time that it's not a single site but a multi-site charter that is unionized . What does that mean to the rest of the sector ? So I came in with a lot of weight on my shoulders to be able to negotiate not just in the best interest of City on the Hill , but to negotiate in a way that will be beneficial to the sector , and I'm thankful for what we were able to accomplish together .
Speaker 2I think that for me , that is the biggest tell of an effective organization not to judge the existence of the bargaining , the bargaining unit as good or bad , or the union as good or bad , in as much as how do we both create mutual success in the existence of each other right .
Speaker 2Because it can't be mutually exclusive , like the union can't exist without the entity in which it supports the entity can't exist without the people to do the work and that it's necessary , in which it supports the entity can't exist without the people to do the work , and that that it's necessary . I think a lot of times we're driven to polarities or , you know , binary thinking of , like it's either this or that , where it can be both and and the entity can still exist . And so I appreciate you've always been very level-headed and pragmatic , so I can . I can appreciate that . Talk to me . Been very level-headed and pragmatic , so I can . I can appreciate that .
Speaker 2Talk to me about your first bad boss , like when I don't know if it was , like in high school , whether it was , you know when you were working for the magazine . Like when you realized like okay , I've , I've worked , I've done this , but you know what this is going , this is going to . This is going to suck the life out of me , or this is not ideal for my own mental health , wellness or what have you ?
Speaker 1Yeah , so I appreciate the question and I think all of us have experienced it bad bosses way along the way . I just want to caveat , in the example with City on the Hill , that City on the Hill is actually closing this year and so this will be the last graduating class and one of the first 14 charters in the state is now closing as a result of the things that led to the unionization , and so I don't want to say that the union
Charter Schools and Union Relationships
Speaker 1did it , but the organization had gotten ahead of itself and it's just . It's just , it really is a , a case study in organizational management . And so I don't , I don't , I don't want to leave that story saying and it is magically the best it's ever been , though it's about to close this year , and so you know it's last graduating class is going to walk the stage this month the first bad boss . Like I've had some , some interesting , some interesting experiences with leaders and I've always tried to be the member who has worked with the leader and has , you know if I , as long as his arms are up , he's there . So like that , that , that Erin and her person is like who I am . So like when you say bad boss . I can't point to anybody and say you were the one who made my life miserable , but I can tell you a group of people , and that was the board of Green Town Labs . And when I tell you that that was a difficult experience , it was difficult and one that has actually informed how , in my negotiations for roles , how I understand the organizational dynamic , because when I was at City on a Hill , I reported to the board and that board had become activists in the face of the , of the , of the unionization . So , like they were , like you know all in the business wanted to be . You know every level of detail , and so I provided them with a level of transparency they were looking for , looking like we need to meet more often , we need to talk , we need to put the , put the cards on the table . You know , jim Collins , you know we've got to . We've got to not just put the right people on the bus , but we've got to confront the brutal facts . And the brutal fact is that we are not serving the students of Boston the way we are , and so that was enough to be able to pacify this board and to get them to the place where we believe in Kevin's leadership , and an activist board became a supportive board and one that didn't want me to leave Right .
Speaker 1And so I'm on the Greentown lab side . Now I'm in a different sector , I'm in the clean energy sector , and I joined the organization , literally sat down with the CEO at lunch and said I'm not here to take your job , I'm here to support your work , I'm here to do the thing that you want . And she said yes , thank you , I'm glad to have you on the team . Good , yes , and so I agreed and I started in January . In March , she told me oh , by the way , kevin , I'm going to take a sabbatical . It was delayed by the pandemic . And so I'm saying okay , so I'm going to be gone , kevin , from May until August , and while I'm gone , you're going to be in charge , along with two other members of the staff . And I'm saying , ok , no problem , like you know , hey , you do , you , I'm glad that you get a chance to take off . You are a founder . And she called me back in August and she said well , kevin , I'm coming back , but I'm not staying . I want you to take over as an interim leader . And I'm saying now , wait a minute . This is the exact conversation that we had .
Speaker 1When I said that's not what I came to do , but like , if you want me to do it , then I will , members of the board were aware of what was happening , and so I had to . We had to hold it . It was just me and the chief talent officer who were aware , and so we had to hold it until the November board meeting , and it was like a shotgun marriage . It was like , well , I'm leaving , what do you mean ? You're leaving , and this is the person I want you to take on . Well , who is he ? And like and so . But like , well , he's done this before and I had , but like , I didn't get a chance to sit down with the board and interview them . I didn't get a chance . They didn't get a chance to interview me . It was more like , okay , if this is what we have to do , we'll start this national search and so okay . So like December , make the announcement I'm the interim leader , everything is fine .
Speaker 1The executive team was hot that the . You know , here's this guy who doesn't have climate tech experience coming to be able to lead our organization Like he should just be . It should have been one of us . And so we're actively now working to undermine leadership and why I mentioned the board and not the executive team as being the bad leader . The board was taking the phone calls , not the executive team as being the bad leader .
Speaker 1The board was taking the phone calls of the executive team . The board was the ones who were . You know , when there was an issue , they would call me and they would say you know , kevin , can't you just work with this person ? Can't you just bring them into the phone and I'm saying but like I'm the leader and so like , if you want me to lead , then I came to lead , and like I'm going to make changes that I think are going to set this organization up for the next leader to be able to take over , but like I'm not , I'm not here to babysit , I'm here to do some work , and so what I see the organization needs to do is what we need to do . But the issue was like that .
Speaker 2The board , just didn't see it .
Speaker 1The board was trying to manage . Yeah , and then along the way , so the board didn't have regular , they were only meeting quarterly . And so I said immediately we need to start meeting monthly , even if it's virtually , even if it's for an hour , to keep us updated , because there's a number of things that we're doing . We're trying to move from a for-profit corporation with the public benefit to a nonprofit . That conversion is happening and you need to know where that is . Board . We've got all these issues . We're in Boston , but we've expanded to Houston and we've got some serious issues to be able to contend with , but we're not meeting enough .
Speaker 1There are pockets of the board who feel like this is what they need to be able to do , and so by this time the board chair , who I reported to , technically also had to step down for health matters , and so that left nobody , left no leader in charge to be able to report to .
Speaker 1So , like I'm , like listless out here , trying to , you know , lead this organization in the direction where the board has chosen not to actively engage but engage behind my back and to work with the executive team .
Speaker 1Members that didn't like me to be able to take my voice away and even to go so far as to bring in a consultant , a board consultant , who was there to try to tell them what to be able to do , and then the executive team just piled on and used that as an opportunity to be able to talk about how myself and the chief talent officer who both were , by the way , black needed to go .
Speaker 1So I learned very quickly that , like saying that I didn't have climate tech experience was the euphemism for and he's black and um , he doesn't have startup experience , though . I spent , you know , 10 years in the charter school space and what our charters , but just many startups , um , um . He didn't have startup experience as being , we don't like him , and so we get to use those words euphematically to be able to convey our concerns to people who are , who are not , you know , who are not leaned in like these , are volunteer , board and like . To me , that was the worst experience that I have had in in leadership , and I will not take another job where the board and the leader are not on the same page , because if that's not happening , that's a recipe for disaster .
Speaker 2So there's so much in there , so let me let me first ask this question when , when you were going through this , what did you learn about yourself , as all of these things were all the shifting in the and the shell game , if you will like what did you learn about Kevin ?
Speaker 1So I learned so when I was so you know , also in the ministry Right . And so when I was , when I was in Los Angeles , I was on the social ministry of a church and that pastor said you know what , you are the type of person that time . But like that's actually a true statement . Like I am , I am the person like that wall means nothing . It means it is an opportunity for me to be creative about getting through . And so what I found is that , in answer to your question , that I would go through the wall , even at my own , to my own detriment and to my own personal satisfaction and my own personal impact on my health and well-being .
Speaker 1So in that particular job I was living in Connecticut , driving to Boston . That was two days a week that I had agreed to , though the CEO really wanted three from everybody . So when I took over as interim CEO , she said , Kevin , you need to be in the office three times a week . And so like that was just a strain , because anybody who knows Boston knows the bus traffic is horrible , so it could take an hour and a half on a good day or three hours on a bad day in traffic in each direction . So that was a tax and then the other tax was , and I loved Houston . I enjoyed going once a month , it was great .
Speaker 1But like the my predecessor didn't have children , and so like she could come , come in on Sunday and leave on a Friday . But like that's not my reality and so like I fly down on Monday morning and then fly back on on Wednesday night , early Thursday . That's . That's not the same level of like touch , but I'm doing that consistently and I'm doing that even as you know the the knives are being thrown at me and I'm being attacked . It's just like I . Someone recently told me that , Kevin , you just have a high tolerance for for you know distressed situations and I do . But it is also like if , if I had not been let go of that organization , I would still be trying to tear that wall down , because the wall needed to come down .
Speaker 2A lot of people get , I'll say in their feelings when they get , you know , when they part ways with an organization how , how did you feel when it was clear that , like this is the end of the road , and this might not even be by my choice , like what did you ? What did you feel ? How did you , you know , respond ? How'd you recover ?
Speaker 1Because it was tough and I was in my feelings for a long time . I mean even to the way that I wrote the description in my in my LinkedIn profile . It's not there anymore but , like I was very clear , like you know that I I took over for interim leader for a leader in an organization that has suffered tremendous founders dilemma . I did these things to be able to combat that issue . I think founders dilemma remains , but , like all the other things , like like if you read my resume , I'm quite sure you would have thought to yourself like he sounds angry and it wasn't but it wasn't that I was .
Speaker 1I was angry at , you know , at myself I was .
Speaker 1I was frustrated because the things that I was doing were the things that needed to be done , and so , like I stand behind the work , I stand behind the decisions that I made , I stand behind the need to be able to do the thing . But I was angry for a long time . But then the reality of trying to find a C-level job and only having some of the severance set in and there was then not just a move from anger to despair and an emasculation of running up on my credit cards , not having the resources that I needed it was dehumanizing for a long time , and anybody who has been unemployed or underemployed knows that it's difficult to be able to reconcile those things and still appear positive in an interview and still describe the position and the situation in terms that are palatable . It was hard , so I did . The Lord really worked on me and I was like God now look , your word says that you will supply every one of my needs , but now , God , you're taking your sweet time and so I just need
Confronting Bad Leadership
Speaker 1.
Speaker 2I just need you , lord , to help me .
Speaker 1I know you can show out , but God please , and so that's . But that's been like that was , but that's , that's real and and not not everybody knows that about what the situation looked like Like . I mean , beyond my presiding elder , nobody at church knew that that was happening . But yeah , it was a tough time of my life and so I learned a lot about myself , learned a lot about resiliency , but I also learned about what was important and I tried to prioritize what was important and the Lord ultimately did provide in this new situation and I'm thankful .
Speaker 2Well , I think that's a really good point to make is that I hear a lot of people . You either you stick to your values or you acquiesce Right . I've had some conversations with some educators who are like you know what . I don't agree with what this is , but if this is all they want , this is all I'm going to give them . I don't agree with what this is , but if this is all they want , this is all I'm going to give them , and I feel like that , in and of itself , is evidence of a situation sucking the life out of you , because it sucked away your ability to have the constitution and conviction around what you believe .
Speaker 2Like , hey , I believe this and I'm willing to charge this hill by myself , smash down the wall by myself , even if it means my head gonna hurt , to make sure that I at least do the thing I knew to do . That was right . Even if you didn't , what do you think prevents leaders from seeing the right ? Right , because , as people who have worked for other people for quite some time , like we see , we're like oh my , they don't get it . Like , if you , you know talking to everyone who's listening , what are some of the things that you've come to realize when the people in leadership or administration and school what have ?
Speaker 1you don't see the obviousness of what's right , like you do so I mean so , I think everybody's situation is different and I think you can turn a blind eye if , like , you got a mortgage and kids in college and like you know , this is the , this is the thing , and so , like , I'm just going to , I'm just going to do the thing to get to the thing , to get to the place that I need to be able to get to . But , and like , that's not wrong , that's just , that's the choice . Other people might be in a position where they can say , you know what ? I've had enough of this . I need to be able to , I need to be able to move on . I think it's what is your appetite for change ? And how , like , are you going to go down fighting for this thing ? Like , is this going to be your hill to die on ? And if it is , then make it your hill . If it's not , then you know what ? Let's just keep rolling for the punches and also understanding that change is a process , not an event . So , like you , like I just celebrated last Sunday four years at this church . We've come a long way in four years , but like it had , it had been easy all the way . And let me tell you , we're different from we were in year one and year two and year three look different from year four , but we praise God for where we are . But the reality is that , like , I can't say that we're where we need to be , but , man , we've certainly come a long way , I think .
Speaker 1I think leaders have to get to a place that , if you are going to stick with an organization like is the , is the incremental change enough to be able to make it so that you can still feel like when you get out of bed in the morning , it's a place that you want to be a part of and you can't be upset about what is happening if you're not willing to be a change . It's like you can't tell me that you don't like the outcome of the election . If you didn't vote and didn't encourage your other friends to be able to vote , you just stayed silent . Well , that's not good enough , and so we've got to decide that it's going to take us bringing our whole selves to work and doing the very best we can to be able to move forward the mission of the organization .
Speaker 1And if you are aligned with the leader and you are aligned with the work and can do that , fine , if you can stomach the change management that is required ? You can stomach the change management that is required , and if you can't , are you willing to be able to say I can't , even if it costs me . And I think the price of leadership that we don't experience or that you speak to enough is if it costs me . You look at , I know we're in an education space , but the church example comes to my mind of Shadrach , meshach and Abednego , the three Hebrew boys , in the fiery furnace and them saying to Nebuchadnezzar we're not going to bow down to you .
Speaker 2And if I die .
Speaker 1But even if right , even if you don't , we're still not to . And so even the example you're giving of Esther saying to the king if I die , let me die , it's that level of conviction that says this may not go right , but I still believe that this is the right decision that we take . But look , we know how those situations end , right , esther freed the children of Israel , shadrach , meshach and Abednego , got into the fire furnace and then they came out . But there are also times when that conviction ends in a way that isn't what you want . I didn't want to be unemployed and underemployed , but I tell you , I stand by the decision to do what I did while I was there and like okay .
Speaker 2At the risk of sounding old , do you feel like we are in a space where people have and live those convictions like they did years ago ? And I'm asking especially because you come from a space of both political science , social justice , like that's in your wheelhouse too . I am increasingly discouraged in many fronts in my adult life , both in the consulting space , in the corporate spaces that I support , in the church spaces , the congregational spaces , with meeting with so many people that have just general apathy , just going through the motions . There's no like we have a lot of opinions about a ton of stuff but a conviction that we are willing to go deep and hard for that . We fully know what we're even arguing about or for in a way that could convince you to change . But if it doesn't , I'm still going to lose my convictions anyway . I just don't . I don't see it . I don't see a lot of that anymore . You tell me if I'm wrong .
Speaker 1No , so I think so . I think it exists . I think it exists in pockets , right , like your husband is doing it , you're doing it , I'm doing it . There are other preachers that I can point to to do it , but I agree with you that there is apathy in congregations and among leaders . I think , as my bishop has said , that , that that people are blaming covid for for a reality in ministry and in life . That that is what's happening .
Speaker 1Look , people still have spiritual COVID , even after the pandemic has become an epidemic , and so the question that we have to ask is and so where do those pockets of excellence exist , and what are the mechanisms by which we are bringing those voices forward ? And so I don't have a TikTok following , I'm not on Instagram . That's not the medium through which my voice is being shared . I don't think that it's true that we don't have a Martin Luther King or Malcolm X . I just don't think that there is only one news station that we go to to get our news to be able to broadcast . What made Martin Luther King successful was his ability to be able to take those images of police and for them to be broadcast on the nightly news . Well , we're not watching the nightly news anymore . We're watching Facebook , and what we're watching may not very well be a representation of what is really happening because of the algorithms , right .
Speaker 1So I just think that it just behooves those of us who are doing the work to continue to do the work and for platforms like the one that you have provided me the opportunity to do today to be able to continue to spotlight that work , and my hope , my belief , my idea is that one day those will grow . If we look at the story of the sower of the seeds , like some of the seeds fell by the wayside , some of the seeds got eaten up by the birds , some of the seeds the plant grew and then got burned down by the sun , but it was the other seeds that then created a bumper crop , and so what I'm hoping still exists out there is a bumper crop opportunity that there is , that there's . Somebody is going to get what we're sharing and it's going to grow up and blow up in ways that we did just not anticipate , because , yeah , I've seen a lot of , I've seen a lot of seeds drop in the sun .
Speaker 2But I feel like educators are at least the ones that I've talked to are still the ones raging against the machine of apathy and mediocrity . I talked to someone today who was like I'm here with these kids because they need it , because they don't have anybody else , and I think about the idea of bad bosses and we playing around this idea of the trifecta of bad bosses that teachers have to go through between the administration sometimes it's the parents and sometimes it's those that are being educated themselves . How do you stay encouraged when you've got the ? It comes at you from all sides , especially as an educator .
Speaker 1Yeah , and so I think the answer to the question is in the civil rights struggle , the successes don't come as frequently as we might like , and what really does come is the disappointments , again and again .
Speaker 2So , as an educator , I would say how do you define success then , if they don't come as frequently as they should ?
Speaker 1Or not as frequently as you- .
Speaker 1No , but it's the kid in your class who got on your last nerves and is now paying attention and is feeling good about him or herself and comes to you at the end of the year . And it's the parent who you were trying to reach . And now , all of a sudden , you've got them in a parent teacher conference for the first time and they are there and engaged with their student . You've got to celebrate those things . That note that you got from your principal that said good job , keep it up , or the PD that you led made a difference in my life . The thing , the card that you sent me did something like that . That is the reason to be able to keep going . That's the reason to be able to . And so you've got to measure success with those things .
Speaker 1And when they come in the mail , when they come in unexpected places , like Elisha described as still small voice , right , when you are getting the message that you are on the right track , that hey , you know that lesson really made a difference , like that's the thing that you have to hold on to , because those other messages are coming . How dare you , how could you ? You shouldn't have . I can't believe that you did . Those messages come and they're always there .
Speaker 1But , like , you've got to take those , those that , that encouragement from that child , that encouragement from that parent they wrote you a note that that Starbucks coffee that you got because they gave you a gift card at the end of the year you got to take those things as being signs that the seeds that you are planting are making a difference , are making a difference . And , yep , it may not be that this year the allocation to your school or the focus on Black History Month was as good as you wanted it to be , but , man , we're so glad that the assembly was a good one . And you have to tell yourself that Black History Month began as Negro History Week and grew into a month . And so what are you going to do to make sure that what you have started is going to grow into a movement Like ? Those are the things that you , I think , have to focus on if you're going to be , if you're going to stick in this work , because it's tough .
Speaker 2So I love the altruistic nature of what you have to put in the back of your mind .
Speaker 2Simon Sinek talks about starting with your why because , that's where you plant the flag to encourage yourself when things are always going crazy .
Speaker 2That's what you tell entrepreneurs and coaches and business and all the things like well , why are you here ?
Speaker 2Remember that , because this is just a point in time and context to the back of that quilt that we talked about earlier in the session . Right , talk to me about the , the , the skills , not the skills , but the traits you've seen in leadership , that you have been encouraged by and kind of grasp for yourself in the leadership space , in the teaching space , like what are ? What do you feel like every teacher at the top let's say top three what does every teacher who
Leadership Traits for Educators
Speaker 2, from my understanding teachers are leaders in their they have their own country , that's their classroom , and then they end up , or the state that's in their classroom , and then the school's the country . If you say , if we want to do an analogy , what are the three or four , the four things , the four traits , the four values that teachers in this era , especially in the age of AI and legislation , all things , what do they have to have in order to be able to navigate what continues to change and potentially some toxic situations ?
Speaker 1Yeah , so . So thank you for the question . So the first thing that came to mind is to be original , and so my previous bishop we were having a conversation one day and he said we spend a lot of time trying to be duplicates when God has called us to be originals . And I just thought that was very profound . And as much as we're trying to do the thing that we see the other ministry down the street doing , or the thing that we see in another classroom , but no , god called you to be an original .
Speaker 1And so what is , as a teacher , as an educator , as a leader , what is the thing that you are uniquely equipped to do ? And you have to do that well . And so Jim Collins called that your hedgehog concept . But what I'm saying is that what is the thing in your life that is uniquely you , and is that coming through in your classroom ? Is that coming through in the way that you are engaging others ? Is that coming through ? I don't think anybody who would be listening to this podcast would have any doubt that I'm a preacher . It just comes through any doubt that I'm a preacher .
Speaker 2It just comes through . It's about who I am .
Speaker 1We've had 15 sermons in the last 40 minutes , if I told you that I have kids .
Speaker 1Kevin's going to give you all the church in this here podcast , right Exactly . Join us on Sunday at 930 . But yes , I think you've got to be original in life . So stop thinking that you've got to be the person down the hall , stop thinking that you've got to do the thing . No , what did God call you to do ? Bloom where you're planted , and so I think that there's an opportunity that you have , right where you are , and so you've got to remember that you are not in your situation by accident . You didn't show up to that school . You are not in that place . You are not in that classroom teaching that class , the kids in your class , the difficult parents that you have , the school system that you're in none of that's by accident . So what will be the thing that will cause you to be able to bloom ? And for those who are perhaps of our generation , like where Tupac talked about the rose that was growing in the cement , that can be you , and so it doesn't have to be that everything has to be perfect . You can brighten the space simply because you bloom where you , where you are planted .
Speaker 1I think the third , I think the third thing is that who you are ought not change as a result of the space that you're in , but because of who you are , should change the space . And so I think it just goes back to the idea that we were talking about the convictions , the need to be able to persevere and to be able to hold on to your values . But you are in that space to make the space look like you instead of you being in the space to then absorb all of the hurt , the pain , the apathy that exists . And so that second and third thing , I think , go together and the idea of bloom where you're planted , like before the bloom , it was dreary . Before the rose rose from the cement . It was dreary , but your presence changed the outlook , and your being where you are should change the direction of someone's life , whether it's a student , a staff member , a colleague . You being , you should make a difference .
Speaker 2I think one of the things that comes to mind for me is that this idea that growing where you're planted , blooming where you're planted , the inference gives appreciation for the delicate with the hard . The inference gives appreciation for the delicate with the hard , and I think a lot of times we see the hard as a harm Things . It's a hard thing . Well , if you wanted to grow a muscle , you would have to pick up things that are heavy and the heavy hurts , and you've got to grow yourself to reps before you can actually deal with the pain and push past the pain until you can get to the next level of weight .
Speaker 2A lot of times we run from the heavy thing because we don't want to be disrupted , we don't want to be knocked out of our comfort zones . Right , and I've said it often that a lot of times we make our comfort zones our coffin because we don't want to get out of them . And so I appreciate both the bloom where you're planted . The other thing that comes to mind for me is I heard one of my old pastors say up in the Jersey Philly area that we are called to be thermometers and we are often acting as thermostats . Right , the thermostat tells I'm sorry , we're called to be thermostats but we're often acting as thermometers . The thermometer reads the atmosphere , but the thermostat changes it .
Speaker 2The thermometer reads the atmosphere , but the thermostat changes it and there are very few professions beyond teaching that create those atmospheres for people who may never experience them anywhere else , never be sparked by anyone else . What's one student , kevin , that , like you , look back and I don't want to know their name , I don't want anybody to sue , but , like , when you look back and think about the arc of your , of your education space and the sacrifices that you made , because you are both husband , your father , you've moved a million billion times , probably five more than me . You know , when you think about like , hey , this is worth it , like what's you know in the arc ? Like , give me one or two stories to say you know what this does . It's a hard thing and it's worth it , for you know you know one or two of these stories that come to your mind .
Speaker 1Yeah , so I so . So thank you for that . And you know , as you were talking about the , you know , as you're talking about being hard , like my dad was a sharecropper growing up and so , like I have a lot of stories of him . You know , like he can tell you stories about , like not knowing that it was a holiday , because the only way we knew was because the mail wasn't delivered . Like he goes back to , like the sharecroppers of Mississippi , mississippi , right , but like , for the dirt , turning over the soil is hard , right , but but and for and for the for the plant that is being , you know that's difficult , right , but like , if you want to get to the fruit , all of those things had to happen . So the being plucked , being , you know , all of that was the result of the work that was put in in terms of , so I just I agree with you Like the , what we think of as hard is actually a part of the process , is a part of the , of what we have to go through in order to get to the result .
Speaker 1And I do believe that that our people are the only people who expect to be able to taste the apple pie of the tree we planted just yesterday and it's like that's just not how the process works , but we don't give ourselves the space or the grace to appreciate that change is a process . And I had to get the soil right to get the tree in the ground and then it took some time for the tree to be able to know it was time to be able to plant the fruit . And then look , once you got the fruit , it still had to be cooked and prepared and served . But like we want to miss those pieces because we think that they're hard . So to example of a student , so I'm going to name my sister , and I do that because I can remember being at her graduation , the Bennett in 2002 , and being so proud .
Speaker 1But being so proud . Like Tia graduated , number three in her class graduated number three in her class .
Speaker 1Right and , like a school that wasn't even on her radar to be able to go to another Bennett student said , hey , I got to be able to Bennett and this is how she's there and got a full ride there . Got there Bennett is down the street from North Carolina A&T and you know , went and scored the highest of every any student on a Spanish exam than when she first got there . But that was difficult . Right , we were born in Michigan . Now she's going to go to North Carolina . She's going to spend four years there .
Speaker 1That was hard , but the North Carolina experience was so strong for her that she decided that , rather than return to Ann Arbor and the comfort of being at home , that she was going to continue to teach in North Carolina Public Schools . And so she has been in the Charlotte Public Schools for the past 23 years as an elementary school teacher and , as you know , I can remember when she would say that the principal wanted for her to change grades and you know , but , but , but , miss taylor , we need you in this grade to be able to help prepare the children for but I hadn't taught that grade before . But yes , we know that you can . Like I , those are like . That's the um I .
Speaker 1I use her purposely because not that she grew up in my shadow , but I was the one that got the attention , but tia was the one who was a better student , Tia was the one that studied harder and did better and and whatever , but but it just the attention came to me and they would pass over her . To the point when I was in college People would come to her and say , well , how's Kevin doing ?
Speaker 2And she said I'm doing fine , thank you , kevin's doing fine too . And , like I said , like that's just witness that .
Speaker 1I actually witnessed that on campus . Oh , but , but , but , no , but , I think , but I think it's that , but I also think I also think about the , the students who have persisted through covid , who you know , who were able to find a way to move quickly to um , to um , to learning , and still were able to um , to graduate and to be able to succeed , like that model of resistance matters . Because , like you know , we're talking today about DEI , but , like you , take someone , like in Little Rock Nine , who had to go to school with the National Guard there to be able to protect them , and now the National Guard is being called on protesters for what ? We've come a long way , but the structures and the issues have not changed . It's just a different game , and so are we going to play , and so I think that's why I'm saying we have to celebrate .
Speaker 1So I celebrate the Tia Taylors of the world who stuck it out , who did the work and put the work in and has made a difference in the lives of children for the past 23 years . But I also honor the people that we haven't heard about , that don't have the podcast , that don't have the Facebook following , that don't have the Instagram page , but look who also don't have , then the story that their lives have been perfect , because the only thing we put on social media is the good things . We don't put the bad things on , but has persisted Right , has struggled and has made it work . I think those are . Those are people who are worthy of recognition too .
Speaker 2I appreciate that , especially considering I'm raising two kids who spent a mid majority of their adolescence and COVID . Right , we took our daughter to one of her afterschool activities and sitting next to one of the parents and they're similar in age , and both kids were like very awkward , very quiet , and we kind of introduced ourselves and then introduced the kid to the other kid and to just like kind of at ourselves and then introduced the kid to the other kid and to just like kind of at least start the conversation going and the dad said , you know , I don't understand why she's so reserved . And I said to him I said because she spent , you know , three of her five years , three of her eight years in COVID . She didn't talk to nobody , see , nobody , like that's a real , real thing . And so I think at times , because we're resilient , we often don't realize the kinds of changes and challenges that this generation has that are uniquely , uniquely saved for them .
Speaker 2Right , yes , uniquely saved between . You know the technological , you know augmented reality , artificial intelligence , you know situations that they're going through now . To you know pervasive access to information . To you know how do you , how do you , as a parent , right lead through that right Knowing because you've got . Do you , how do you , as a parent , right lead through that right knowing because you've got , you've got , you know young children as well like , how do you again leading ? You're not trying to be the bad boss , I would assume . So you're trying . I mean , I don't want to assume what you know , what you all are doing , but you know , tell , tell me what you all are doing and what you wish parents would do so that they're not the bad boss you're arguing with at school because their kids addicted to the electronics yeah , no , I , I , I hear that and I I appreciate your um .
Speaker 1You know your daughter's um um reticence to to get to know people because , like , I can still remember when the mask came off and you know , like , I met you with a mask on and this is what your face looks like , and so you know , to a child , you know that all I saw was your eyes and the rest of your body was covered by a mask and still , somehow they found a way to work with one another and to be able to get along . No , I agree with you , we've asked a lot of this generation , but I think it is to expose them , to be able to give them the resources to be able to set the example , to be able to say that my family is as important as the work that I do . And while I want to be a good employee , I want to be a good dad even more . And while I want to be a good employee , I want to be a good dad even more . And while I want to be a good boss and make a difference and give them all of the trappings of life , I actually want to be present , to be able to make a difference , and I think . That's I think and I am , am .
Speaker 1I do not profess to be the perfect parent . I do not profess to suggest that there aren't times I want to shake my children . And just what are you doing ? I don't want anybody to think , oh , he thinks he's like . I can tell you some stories about some like and we won't go back to that store because they acted this way . Stories about some like and we won't go back to that store because they acted this way . But it is to be able to say that like there's more to life than just you know , just school , just your tablet , just what you were watching on TV . But there's also a better life out there . Because I'm trying to make it better for you . Like I don't want you to have to experience what I experienced . I don't want for you to have to go through what I go through and we talked about it at work yesterday , about like your son is cute . I'm sure my son is cute , but like cute doesn't get you anywhere when you've met the wrong side of the law .
Speaker 1And I'm not and that's not at all to suggest that there are not dedicated , committed , quality police and law enforcement .
Speaker 1I can tell you some names of some folks who have made a difference , and so that's not what I'm saying .
Speaker 1I am saying , though , that , like the one percent of the time , or the half percent of the time , might be the very time that that my child runs into one of them , and I want to make sure that they can come home . And just like that officer wants to get home , I want my child to come home as well , and so I need you to be compliant , at least to the extent that you can take it in the direction that . When I tell you to stop , that you do , because it will be
Leading Through Change and Next Steps
Speaker 1your word against theirs , right , and that's a fear that parents of color have , but it's also a reality that we go through , and so this is why I'm saying I'm a recovering spanker , I'm a recovering yeller . I'm not there yet . The Lord has not delivered me from raising my voice , but I believe that one day he will . I'm sure my children look forward to that day also , but but in the meantime , in the meantime , if you just do not stop .
Speaker 2You know again , you've had a lot , a lot of of less . I want to ask you two more teacher questions . Yeah , I want to ask you two more teacher questions and then we'll tell the people more about what's coming for Kevin Taylor . So what would you say is the most thankless part of the teaching job of the teaching job or the administration job ?
Speaker 1So I think people do not appreciate the level of planning and engagement that goes into delivering the content that they see is going to be great and that every you know , every letter that you receive from the school is going to be wonderful and that everything is going to go perfectly . But like that's just not the reality , right , like a lot of time and energy goes into making those things right and you can still find mistakes . And the mistakes are not because someone didn't care . I think it's because we're all human and mistakes happen . And so I think one of the most things in this job or things in this part , is that people hold the leader to the standard of perfection when in fact , perfection is not achievable and people are not forgiving when mistakes are made or things of that nature . And that's that , I think that's .
Speaker 1I think that's hard for any leader , because you know , I'm not saying that well-intentioned , I just mean that we're human and mistakes possible and like , okay , we can , we can , we can recover from that . But like I think that's the , I think that's the thing is that it takes a lot to be able to , to come forward and to say the words , to share the thing , to do the thing to come in every day , have it together to present , and like it might go left , but it doesn't have anything to do with you , it just has to do with like , perhaps that child didn't get a good night's . The parent , you know , didn't , didn't have as good of experience , so I don't know . But like , I think it is the like , the need to have to show up and put on a brave face even when you're being criticized . I think that's . I think that's hard .
Speaker 2So , kevin , you are about to embark on a really big journey . Do you want to tell everyone you know what's what's happening for you this fall ? What are you excited about , what's coming and how can we , how can we support you ?
Speaker 1So , thank you , so , so , yes , I , it really is even hard for me even to articulate because , like it's , it's , it's , it's a it's , a vision is coming to reality . But on October 7th I will be , I'll be debuting my very first book , which is called A Charge to Keep , and it gives immutable lessons of leadership from the pulpit to the C-suite , pit to the C-suite . And so what makes this book different from some of the other leadership books on the market is that for each of the principles of leadership that I share , I give both an example of the C-suite so what corporate life , or what my leadership has looked like in corporate to also give a church example that illustrates that same point . And so you don't have to be church to be able to pick up the book . It can be for the person that actually has never been to church and , look , you can just read over that paragraph and move on . And you don't have to be in the business world to be able to do that . You can just focus on the church examples .
Speaker 1But what I think of it , if you open it and you read it , what you will find is that I've been through some things and I've made some mistakes , and you don't need to touch the stove to know that it's hot . Let me have brought you to the place where you know that this is going to be hot , and here is the success that you can you can achieve if only you know this . And so I think of it more as like some tools to be added to your toolbox . You don't need an Allen wrench every time you do a project , but the moment that you do , you want to know that it's in your toolbox , and you might not need the chapter on diversity this time . You might not need the chapter on swinging for the fences that might not be the situation that you're in , but you might need that in the future , and it's there to be able to provide you with help . And really honest and true . Nothing is made up in this book True examples of how leadership changes . So I'm happy .
Speaker 1This is the first time that I probably have shared it outside of a very , very close circle of trusted friends , but my hope is that you'll buy it . My hope is that you'll buy it . My hope is that you'll read it and that you'll recommend it to others , and the thing I think that I enjoy in ministry , most like as a pastor is Bible study , of course . Preaching , yes , but like the opportunity to be able to do workshops and to be able to provide the congregation with the tools that they need to be excited about ministry . That's what I enjoy most , so I'm hopeful If I can learn by osmosis from you , natalie , I'm hoping that this can become some courses or some opportunities to be able to do some coaching with some leaders .
Speaker 1But I'm also hoping , more than anything , that , as people read the book , that they can not just see that Kevin went through something , but they can see themselves in the story and be able to say , all right , I got it . The stove is hot . All right , I got it . This is a play that I need to be able to run . Or maybe , if I looked at this situation differently , I would understand that these people pushing back on me is actually a sign that I'm doing the right thing , and like those are , I think , the things that leaders need to have in their arsenal in order to make it .
Speaker 2So I want to pull that thread one more time , and then we're going to wrap this up . When you talk about dealing with difficult leadership or toxic environments as an educator , what's one key ? You would say ? Could you sneak us one ? Can you give us one ? That just comes to mind ?
Speaker 1I do think change is hard right . Change is a process , not an event , and not everybody is going to be on your side as you look to be able to move the change , because some people are just stuck in there and where they are and it is your role to help them to be able to get unstuck . So if you would , as Dr Dolly Chung shared with us in a PD many years ago , if you look at a situation , a group of people any number of 100 , if you implement a change , they're going to be 20% . So there are going to be 20 people who are going to go with you just because . And then there are going to be 20% of the people who are going to push against you and are going to make your life difficult .
Speaker 1But you're not speaking to the 20 at the top or the 20 at the bottom . You are speaking to the 60% in the middle that can be convinced , and that 60% can be convinced either by the naysayers or by the people who are going to go with you , and that's the group of the people that you need to speak to . So don't stand in the staff meeting and expect that it's going to be a kumbaya moment . No , the person in the back who is always contrarian , is going to be contrarian , and don't think that because you got the woman on the front row excited for you , that that all of a sudden means it's going to be a good experience . Instead , focus on the 60% of the people that can be convinced .
Speaker 1Who are the influencers in that group that can help you ? And of that 20 , maybe one of the people can be changed . How might you work to leverage that change to be able to convince the others that they can make it ? So these are the types of things that we talk about in the group , I mean in the book , and so I'm hopeful that this podcast , this conversation , might inspire someone along their journey .
Speaker 2I am so excited for you and I want to go back to the change as a process , not an event . I think is something that we often forget , right , because the sun comes up , it's like , ah , it's sunny , no , but it took a time to get there . The grass didn't grow overnight . All of these things happen . It's a perpetual growth , right , and I think it's important for us to realize that . I think the other thing that caught me that you said was the idea of not everybody's going to agree with you .
Speaker 2What comes to mind for me that I found success at is that sometimes people make decisions in a meeting . Most times , those decisions are already made before you get to the meeting , can even have some conversations and have allies in the room and even have time to think out of your idea , your concept , and getting buy-in and feedback and all of the things before you've presented , rather than arguing in the space , is something that I often people I see people failing at when it comes to change management , because they wait to the meeting to think it's this , we're going to do it at the meeting , the meeting , no . More often than not , half the things have been decided . This is about getting consensus . So if you want to have a voice , if you want to have an input , if you want to have a , an innovative thought , more often than not you've got to go around and and litmus test it and build it , and build . You know , kind of be the minority if you will , to build people rallying around your perspective .
Speaker 1Yeah , and so I think I think that's absolutely right and I think that's that's the part and that's where the political science part comes in . Like that's that's where this is an art and not a science , right ? Like you , you might need to take some L's on some things to get the W that you want . You might , you know , you might need to be able to build a partnership with somebody who's going to then at least believe in you enough to be able to hear your thing . So this is not short-term planning , this is the long game . This is over time . I want to achieve the result that I have and so , yeah , I brought it up this year . It got shot down Guess what , but it seeded the ground and there were some people who were interested . Well , how do I cultivate those relationships to ? Maybe it's them that introduce it next time , and I'm the one that seconds it , because we've now got the support . You've got to be willing to say that your thing is so important that , even if it loses now , I still believe in it in the longterm . Like that's the part of leadership . That is , again , if you're looking for the quick wins , they don't exist , right , rosa is again , if you're looking for the quick wins . They don't exist .
Speaker 1Rosa Parks was not the first person who sat down on the bus . She just he sure won't go read a book , right ? But by the time she sat down , there was the leader , there was the opportunity , came together , but that didn't mean that they stopped . Like a whole lot of people got pulled from lunch counters and we think of the Civil Rights Movement as being these major events . No , the civil rights movement is the culmination of multiple little things . So the little things that you do can move and become something big . And yeah , you might not get the attention of the Rosa Parks , you might not be John Lewis , but so what If you got us over the bridge , if you got us down the road ? Thank you for that .
Speaker 2Kevin , I always enjoy our conversations . I want to thank you for being a part of this dialogue of so your Boss Sucks Now what you all can find his book in October . October the 6th . October 7th Is that right , did I get it right ?
Speaker 1October 7th yeah , oh .
Speaker 2October 7th and we're going to throw it up , we're going to make sure we do the charge to keep , and I'm not going to tell people where you got that from , we're just going to let them go ahead and read the book . So they can know . Thank you , thank you so much .
Speaker 1And listen . Maybe we can have you on . I would love it . This has been great . I mean I have . I hope that I haven't talked too fast , or or , or , or , share too many , too many scriptures , you know , I hope , but , but I'm thankful .
Speaker 2Thank you so much .
Speaker 1Have a good one .
Speaker 2Today's episode is brought to you by Natalie Parker Enterprises , where we shape the future and unlock potential by helping organizations and people work together to do good work . Find out more at thenatalieparkercom , or , if you'd like to be a sponsor , email us at info at thenatalieparkercom .
