So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
Bad bosses happen to good people. Join entrepreneur, corporate trailblazer-turned-business strategist, and podcast host Natalie Parker as she unpacks real-life stories of tough leaders and toxic work environments. With Natalie’s expertise in navigating corporate chaos and building strategies for success, this podcast offers practical advice and actionable insights to help you turn workplace challenges into opportunities for growth. Whether you’re dealing with micromanagers, toxic cultures, or just plain bad vibes, this is your go-to guide for taking control, thriving, and proving that when your boss sucks, your success doesn’t have to.
So Your Boss Sucks, Now What?
S3 E5: Fired in Translation: How Bad Leadership Abroad Led to Better Opportunities
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What happens when you find yourself teaching in a foreign country under a boss who doesn't speak your language and won't give direct feedback? For Daphne Brown, this challenging scenario became a profound lesson in resilience, cultural navigation, and leadership.
Daphne's journey from Albany, Georgia to teaching English in South Korea reveals the complex interplay between Eastern and Western communication styles. In Korean workplaces, influenced by Confucian philosophy, feedback is rarely direct. Instead of clearly stating what needs improvement, bosses might simply say "it could be better," leaving employees to intuit what changes to make. Add a language barrier, and the challenge becomes even more daunting.
When Daphne's finance-background boss repeatedly rejected his teaching materials without specific guidance, then delayed notifying him about his contract non-renewal, it could have spelled disaster. Instead, it became a turning point. Through relationships he'd carefully built—particularly with a coordinator who became his advocate—Daphne secured a better position within the Korean education system. This experience taught him valuable lessons about leadership from within rather than above, empowering team members rather than dictating to them.
Beyond professional insights, Daphne's story highlights how saying "yes" to unfamiliar experiences shapes our growth. Now an entrepreneur launching Kwanzaa, a coffee company sourcing products from East Africa, he carries these lessons into new ventures. His advice for anyone considering international work? Be an ambassador for your community, embrace discomfort, and recognize that sometimes our greatest setbacks lead to unexpected opportunities.
Ready to reshape how you view leadership challenges? Listen now to discover how cultural barriers, when navigated with openness and resilience, can transform not just your career but your approach to life.
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Introducing Daphne's Global Journey
Speaker 1What she told me was he didn't want to let me down and so he kind of pushed it all to the side . But my contract expires in September . I will have to go home to the US . What did she mean ? I'm not ready to go back .
Speaker 2I'm not going to hire you .
Speaker 1He wasn't going to hire you . Yeah , I don't know why you're firing me , bro Chill , it's already done , sorry .
Speaker 2This is so your Boss Sucks . Now what ? And I'm Natalie Renee Parker . One of my favorite TV shows growing up I'm an 80s baby was Fraggle Rock . It's this Muppet show , created by Jim Hansen , who actually created the Muppets and who actually created the Muppets , and then he created this show called Fraggle Rock and the Muppets lived underneath the floorboards of this house and they lived in a place called Fraggle and they'd have all these different adventures teaching you like how to have conflict and how to be kind and all the other things .
Speaker 2But one of the best characters in my opinion of Fraggle Rock was Uncle Travelin' Matt , because Uncle Travelin' Matt had all of the awareness , the wherewithal , the wisdom to leave Fraggle Rock and go exploring and learning about the human world . He'd come across everyday objects or curious cultural practices and try to understand them . He was brave and he was kind of weird . At times he was very misplaced . But he'd also write back postcards to his nephew at Fraggle Rock to try to help him understand what's going on . My next guest reminds me of Uncle Traveling Matt , not because he's weird , but because he's an educator . He's a global traveler and he's trying to change the world through his new coffee company called Kwanzaa , where they're disrupting the industry through fair trade and East African partnerships .
Speaker 2Daphne Brown is from Albany , georgia , and he started in classrooms there but found himself in Korea of all places , trying to navigate a Confucian-influenced classroom and all the cultural dynamics , said and unsaid , that go with it . With his bachelor's degree from Albany State and a master's degree from Florida University , florida A&M University , hbcu , go Rattlers and then got an MBA from Washington University in St Louis , he's overcome a ton of challenges when it comes to leadership and bad bossery , right . So in this episode , we're going to explore what it took for him to be that resilient . We're going to talk about how saying yes to new opportunities , even when you're uncomfortable , can unlock unexpected paths , and we'll uncover why teaching is more than just knowledge transfer . It's about shaping communities and changing the future . Let's go talk to Daphne . Daphne , welcome to Sew . Your Boss Sucks . Now what .
Speaker 1How you doing . I'm doing well . How about yourself ?
Speaker 2I'm really good . Listen , I'm excited you're here . I'm excited you're here because our conversation to plan for this is amazing and I cannot wait for everyone to hear it . So the first thing I want to do is I want to talk to me about , I want to tell everybody your journey from you know being in Albany , georgia , to then teaching you know-country , like well it's .
Speaker 1It's really a more of like a small town to a big city kind of adventure . Um , my grandmother was an educator uh , my , my whole life up until she retired . When I was in eighth grade and when I decided on going to school , I ended up going to the school my mother graduated from , which is Albany State University , and I had one of the most fantastic teachers ever , named Dr Dangua . He recently passed away this year . He was my favorite teacher , my political science dad . He always mentioned how politics is , who gets what , when , where and how and I always thought , when I get like 45 , I want to be a professor too .
Speaker 1And , funny enough , that journey came a little sooner than I thought . It would be 20 years sooner . Actually , I was 25 when I decided to go into education . I had recently got my master's from FAMU and a job opening popped up at . I got the job to teach a full year of US-Georgia government and I think halfway through that semester , another college reached out to me and said hey , I would love for you to teach political science at our college for a high school dual enrollment class and at our college , and then that summer in 2019 , I also got to teach at a branch location over the summer as well and , like we mentioned before , like being adventurous , I got an email that was like let's go teach in South Korea . This is what you need . This is how you do it . Boom , I end
From Albany to Korea: Early Teaching Years
Speaker 1up missing the first interview and then going there .
Speaker 2Yeah , so let's rewind a little bit . Talk to me about how it felt for you , because you have this vision of , like you know , being really old at 45 years old . I won't take that personally To doing it in your mid twenties for people who were fairly close in age to you Like how did you navigate that ? What did you learn about the process and the profession ?
Speaker 1and yourself .
Speaker 1Oh . So let's just say the first time or the second time , even when I walked into the classroom , people would say , hey , where's the teacher ? And I say , oh , people would say , hey , where's the teacher ? And I say , oh , that's , that's me , I'm the teacher . And they're like , how , how , how , you're like 25 . And I said , well , all you need is a master's to teach college level classes . I have a master's , here we are .
Speaker 1So that was a little nerve-wracking because now I'm gonna be other side of the classroom and how I went about and how I navigated , that was I first built some rapport . You know asking everybody . You know what are you doing , what's your name , where you're from , what are you studying ? What are you doing , what's your name , where you're from , what are you studying , what do you hope to accomplish ? And then at the very end I said raise your hand if you are studying political science .
Speaker 1Out of my first class was like 40 , 42 , 45 students . Three were political science majors . So now I'm going to speak to 40 something people who don't care about politics and navigating that was a little tricky , but what I ended up doing was bringing it to a personal level . That required a lot of thinking outside the box and curiosity about what goes on and how it plays with political science . So , for example , I would say I would go through the lesson about 45 minutes left .
Speaker 1In the class I say we're going to watch this video from Vox and it's going to be about , and it's going to be about how Western African people are migrating through Morocco to try and get into a city that's actually owned by Spain , that's on the coast of Morocco . So I want you to tell me how this is going to affect US relations with Europe and with Western Africa and with Morocco . So we're going to talk about these things as a conversation so I can stretch your brain capacity to say just because it's not happening in the US does not mean it's not going to affect me .
Speaker 2I love that you had enough awareness to create both an opportunity for learning but an appetite for people to care beyond their current context . I think a lot of times , not only in education but in business , we can stay so laser focused about what's myopically around us and not looking outside to figure out the second and third box consequences to things that are happening . That's really a smart move on your part Now . Now you did all this teaching in the States super early and you were , you know , in high demand , and then you get shipped abroad . Talk to me about Korea .
Speaker 1Oh , let's just say , the first time I got there I immediately got my visa canceled . So , um , after flying on Labor Day , that was my first time getting this close to business class . I was in Delta One . Thanks to some wizardry and good luck , I flew to South Korea . I landed in Seoul and I took an airline from Seoul to Fukuoka , to Jeju , where I was going to work .
Speaker 2But how did you get the call to even come ?
Speaker 1The call to come . Well , let's say January early 2019 . Let's say January early 2019 . I received I was trying to work in China , actually , and I kept doing interviews all through 2018 because I wanted to expand my Mandarin . Like I had been studying Mandarin , I was , you know , gonna get my Zhongwen really high like skill level , and I Got an email that said and I got an email that said teach abroad in Harbin , china . And I work as a university teacher teaching English in Harbin and something told me not to do it . I looked at the opportunity . It was a great opportunity . I decided not to take it . Then , about a week later , I get another email that's like teach English in South Korea , get your TOEFL certificate through this program . And that's I remember saying , oh , all the interviews that I was doing in China , they kept mentioning this TOEFL certificate or this TEFL certificate . And that email had it in there saying , oh , we'll help you get it as well . So , and they have , you get a job certificate is .
Speaker 2Tell them what a TOEFL certificate is all right .
Speaker 1So it is a teaching English as a foreign language certificate , so t-e-f-l , but in some countries it's TOEFL , because that's the um one through the , the EU , or CELTA I think it's three of them that you can use , and some countries only allow you to have 90 hours , 120 hours or 150 hour certificate and you can't get jobs in certain countries if you don't have some minimums . So if you want to go to china or korea or japan , um and some other uh southeast asian countries , 120 is the minimum that you need . If you want to go to saudi arabia , eu , I'm not you the uh emirates , um oman and those they might require , like $120 or $150 , depending on the university or the school or the .
Speaker 2Okay .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2So it's a certification to teach English as a foreign language in a foreign country . So they're recruiting people who are teaching to go and go abroad . You get the bait , you take the bait , you decide not China , but Korea , and you're on a plane .
Speaker 1Right , with the ambition that because Korea is so close to China , I could just go to China . But that's another bag of worms Geographically challenged .
Speaker 2they are not the same place .
Speaker 1Yes , and we're talking about South Korea , because that is another question that comes up .
Speaker 1People will say I hope you wasn't in North Korea and I said no , obviously as an American we can't even go there anymore .
Speaker 1So South Korea is where I was and I get there and I have a job with the Korean government's department of well , the provincial office of education , or as the department of education for that particular province , jeju , and I was going to be working at the Shin Jeju foreign language center , which is one of five major centers that provide English education to students who are not in the private school English education program on the side at the class . So once they get out of elementary school , high school , middle school , they go to these things called hagwons , which are like private academies , which are mostly privately owned , and they pay an absurd amount of money just so that they can level up English , mathematics , piano , things that would help them excel in certain not skills , but their tests for graduating middle school that selects the high school that you go to and the high school test that can really determine what college you get into . So these Hogwarts are basically integrated into society to
Navigating Korean Education Culture
Speaker 1supplement those big tests they have coming up as academic milestones . So the one I worked at was government .
Speaker 2The landscape educationally is competitive right Beyond competitive .
Speaker 1Yes , Okay , Like a little tidbit I'll say , is they have a education system and a lot of East Asia has an education system and I believe Southeast Asia too . That is built on this Confucian system . So I also studied Chinese history at one point . So the Confucian system is basically there were these three massive books in Confucianism that you needed to memorize by heart . And then you go to the empire of China , the king's court or the emperor's court , and you would take these exams and if you took the exam and was successful in passing like Confucian thoughts written , all these different tests , you could literally bring your village out of poverty , like single-handedly , single-handedly , and so you would have people developing , like all the villagers would bring all their money together in some situations to fund the education of one brilliant child that would go on to take these exams and hopefully pass to bring their village out of poverty , and so that kind of mindset around education kind of prevailed .
Speaker 1Where you have these major milestones of my middle school test determines what high school I can get into and my high school test determines what middle I mean what college I can get into , and you only get one shot . So you can kind of imagine the pressure once you hit seventh grade , which is what middle school starts . You can kind of imagine the pressure once you hit seventh grade , which is when middle school starts . I have to do this , or else I I might not . You know , the honor to my family or to myself , or you know the things I want to strive to become is very heavy on on the youth really , and so you're . You're just running to a lot of kids that say the thing I want to do most on my vacation is sleep , because when I leave school I am in a hagwon from 3 , 30 to 10 o'clock at night studying and I think that context is really important , in contrast to some of our other guests , because the foundation of philosophy in where you were teaching is so much different than potentially here , stateside right .
Speaker 2So an entire system of philosophy and education that's based on confucius the philosopher from you . Know what is it ? 400 bc or whatever the time frame is ? Right you to now that still stands as an indoctrinated part of the culture and shapes the concept of education itself being the chief thing . So you go from kind of laissez-faire american to like no , this is like , this is war and you're here to win , yes , and from an education perspective , right as an educator and and not even like a veteran educator like you , like two years in brand I was brand new right , so what ?
Speaker 1yeah , I was one year , uh , one year at two universities , and then I dive right into ESL . Uh well , english as a second language abroad .
Speaker 2And the pool from an educational requirements perspective . So you find yourself dry land overseas , with your visa revoked . What happens next ?
Speaker 1I ended up having to take a flight to Japan and staying in Tokyo to get a new visa to come back into the country and then start working . After that point it was just luckily they provide apartments by law . If you work in Korea as an English teacher , they have to provide housing . Korea as an English teacher , they have to provide housing .
Speaker 1So I had a house . I had a nice apartment in the center of the metropolitan area and the major city on the island , not too far from any public transportation , and , crazy enough , it was so many things that happened prior to me getting to Korea . But let's just say I only had $100 in my account . So , because I was in Taiwan previously doing lessons about Mandarin history , culture of Taiwan and how it's related to China , going to their state department and so on and so forth , one of the lessons I taught at college was a video about what's the protest that was going on and so forth . One of the lessons I taught in at college was a video about what's the protest that was going on in Hong Kong and how Hong Kong has this very big protest culture .
Speaker 1So , as I'm leaving Taiwan my visa not my visa my flight gets delayed because of a typhoon landing me in Hong Kong during said protest that shut down the airport that day I was supposed to leave . So I'm staying in one of the most expensive cities in the world for an additional three days and then coming back to Atlanta after buying a full price ticket back to Atlanta to stay for one week to pack my bags and then eventually come to Korea after picking up my visa . So I was low on funds . Oh , I was low on funds .
Speaker 2So here's my question and was any of that ? Was any of that a signal Like maybe I shouldn't , a signal like maybe I should ?
Speaker 1you know what god is trying to tell you something ? Um , let's just say and I keep saying , let's just say but my mom did not raise a quitter , and neither did my grandma , my grandmother . So those two people have , uh , tenacity and ambition unlike any other people I've ever met in my life and so ingrained in me . If something goes wrong , hello , grandma , mom , anybody . Let's talk through this and let's see how this is supposed to work . But this is not a quitting moment . This was a moment in , let's say , self-sharpening , honing those resilience skills . Yeah , honing resilience .
Speaker 2I don't know Daphne , I probably wouldn't have been like look , let me tell you something . I don't know . I don't believe in quitting either . I do believe in planned exits . Right , but go ahead . So you didn't quit , you chose not to quit . All right , you . You get back on the plane after spending all your money and getting there with a hundred dollars .
Speaker 1Right , and so I get there at a hundred dollars . I I first thing I do anytime I go to any country is pick the road from my hotel and walk straight . I want to know what is in that area , and so I walked out my hotel , I walk
Leadership Challenges and Bad Boss Dynamics
Speaker 1straight , I kept walking straight as far as I could , and then I go get something to eat , I turn around , I come back next day , I walk straight in a different direction and that way at least I know what is in that general vicinity of where I am . At the end of maybe my free time because there was a holiday the day I landed I went to work and I was introduced to my coworkers .
Speaker 1Two were from the US , one was from Australia and one was from Canada , and they're all English teachers and they have experience from three years to eight years and , no , I think , 10 years . And I'm working with these people and they're giving me the rundown like , hey , this is how it happens , this is how we communicate with the director . We have to go through the coordinator . Coordinator , because she is kind of our de facto translator sometimes , or she is the one that kind of changes what you say into a more Korean communication style so that you don't come off as maybe like disrespectful because Americans have more of a direct and indirect communication style .
Speaker 1So we will tell you that we don't like something , but we won't be . This is bad . We'll say it's not exactly what I'm looking for .
Speaker 2It's more passive , aggressive .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely .
Speaker 2We're trying to be polite , but we're also trying not to . Yeah , and a lot of other cultures is like no , it sucks and this is fine .
Speaker 1Right , absolutely . And so I'm working in Korea , which uses a circular communication style , so they want you to , or they feel there's a word for it , I can't remember it starts with a D , but I can't remember the word but basically it means to feel . You're supposed to feel what's going on .
Speaker 2So when somebody says oh , you're supposed to emote or like intuit and understand yes .
Speaker 1So if I say , how is this , how is this project , hmm , you should make some changes , but I'm not going to tell you exactly what to change . I'm just going to say , hmm , it could be better , and that's it . So you have to understand what that means and make it better or make some adjustments and then go back , or they won't say they don't like something . They'll say something very vague that means that they don't like it and that's just not work life . That's a lot of people I've met in that situation that could understand that were the ones that lived abroad , in um , like in the US , uh , whether they went to high school , middle school , they kind of understand how to navigate when they work with another American . But when you're on the opposite end and I've lived , I've studied abroad in Japan , I've been to these other Asian countries and I understand how to navigate it .
Speaker 2But working in that situation is a lot different from just being a student in that situation or being a tourist or , you know , in a non-professional sense and those spaces is very temporary , right , you're in a very temporary space , but when you are employed , you are a part of that community , and so what I'm hearing is you know , the circular communication it's I would assume it's based on a lot of non-verbals , right ?
Speaker 2So , if you're neurodiverse , you're probably having a whole hard time because you can't read people's faces . Then , or diverse , you're probably having a whole hard time because you can't read people's faces . Then I would also assume , you know , based on the context of the country , it also has something to do with like balance and inner peace , like we don't want to disrupt the harmony . Yes , so like how ? So so how does that play into you having a bad boss ? Does that play into you having a bad boss ?
Speaker 1Well , the director of my education center . He came from accounting . He was not a education , he was not a principal , not a . He was not a teacher , he was just an accountant . And they put him over a center . And he was just an accountant and they put him over a center and he just happened to be put in the best performing center on the island . So they have this thing we're in Shinjeju .
Speaker 1Shinjeju Shin means new in some context . So in a new part of the city that's more residential , more they care about academics more , so much more things . And then the main center is in gu , which means old . So here in the old part of the city , part of the city , and every time we have a meeting he's like oh , what is the goo center doing ? Goo , goo Center . And and we're like we're better than them . Why do we care what they're doing over there ? We have more kids at , in better schools and , you know , better performing . They are doing their own thing and they're part of the island , they serve us in their community . We shouldn't worry about that .
Speaker 1But when it came to speaking to meetings with the other center leads , he would fold when we advocate to the coordinator . She talked to him and say , hey , the teachers think this is how we can best service the students in this region of the island . He would go great , I like that . And then when he'd get up to meet the other chain of command , he would fold , because you also based in Confucianism , you have to . Uh , you have this thing called filial piety , which is knowing your place in society . So I think , funny enough , a lot of um in the U S , a lot of minorities , have filial piety and don't know it . So that is knowing the relationship between your mother and the daughter , or the father and the son , or the pastor and the congregation , or the king and the citizens . This is filial piety . So in the situation and this one is- .
Speaker 2Wait , wait , wait . You can't keep going , you got to stop there , gotta stop there , you gotta stop . That's like a bomb , right like . So I'm thinking , um , y'all , I'm gonna bring you into my personal life , my son's autistic . I say I've said this in a couple of different contexts , in a couple different conversations and I've never been able to put a label on it in terms of a one multi-syllabic word of like what he's doing , right , I always say he's just not a respecter of persons . He don't care who you are , he don't care where you've been , he don't care how much money you made . He's going to tell you like , oh , you stink , or oh , you're in my way , or get out . He just has no frame of concept of both hierarchy or position . You know , the other day we were here and we were out and he called my mom by her first name and I thought he was going to lose his life .
Speaker 2And because he's the grandchild that didn't happen because grandparents have so much more money than she thought . It was funny and I'm like but I would have died in 1980 , whatever , had I ever called you by your first name . But I love this , this notion of filial piety and how it shows up both in working situations and cultural situations , and religious , Like I'm done , Like we're done now guys , we know where we're going .
Speaker 1Any takeaway ?
Speaker 2Yeah , like that's amazing , right . And I have to think about your finance leader who's in education with no education background . I would imagine him knowing that he didn't know what he was doing . He just folded anyway because he didn't want to smoke , because he didn't know what to do . Now that is not cultural and that is legit .
Speaker 2that is a bad boss trait Like people get hired for many different reasons , and probably he was somebody's favorite finance guy and he was being moved out of the way . So they put him over here , or he won a bet or whatever it was . He wasn't qualified for the role and , rather than him , have enough self-awareness and humility to say I don't know this , but let me learn , let me learn from people , let them educate me , whatever , because I feel like leadership , trans leadership skills are transferable . So if he wasn't a good leader in finance , he's not gonna be a good leader in education , because it's really about judgment , not about knowing the education system , and so for me that's a red flag . Like he , you know , he wasn't willing to listen to y'all and and my other things you said was funny to me is his desire to copy someone else's paper from a different district because because he didn't know what he didn't know Right .
Speaker 2It reminds me of many years ago . It was , I think it was a Super Bowl commercial where you see these guys in a conference room . They're like I wonder what the guys at such and such company are doing . And then they pan to another company I wonder what the guys at such is like . I wonder what the guys at GlaxoSmithKline are doing or whatever Right , because like they're all like churning over these regurgitated ideas because they don't have any .
Speaker 1Right , not a single thought in that room .
Speaker 2Not a single , not a single original thought . Right , that happened and it really that sucks , because you , as the professional , want to be able to add to the conversation , but the powers that be won't let you Exactly .
Speaker 1And that's just one aspect . So imagine we're switching to online learning because of covid and oh , so you were there doing corona , okay
Performance Review Struggles
Speaker 1oh yeah , it was I .
Speaker 1I got there before corona okay and then life , life like , took turns in in that year , but I enjoy staying in Korea . I think I made a great decision by staying against the wishes of my family who called me and said you sure you want to stay over there ? And I said I'm going to take my chances over here . I think my chances of survival are significantly higher . Not even by thin margins , I mean exceedingly high margins of survival . I was up there .
Speaker 2All of the United States , of Americans that are listening to this podcast , all of my fellow Americans . Don't brush me with the country . We was just in a very interesting time at that time with the not vaccine , the vaccine , the mask and no mask , the half a mask . Just leave us alone . Yeah , we pray God for those of us who were able to survive . We pray for those who were not , and don't you don't have to rub it in our face .
Speaker 1I'm sorry . I just think they did a really good job at what did they do differently ? Daphne , tell us what you learned . All right , what they did differently . First , we have contact tracing . So if I went into a store , I had a QR code on my mobile app that they all use called Kakao Talk . I scan in on my QR code , say that I was there , I go shopping , I do whatever I want . Also , second , there's a culture of wearing masks if you're sick , period . So you don't want to spread it because , keeping harmony in society , I don't want to get other people sick . I still want to go , but I don't want to get people sick .
Speaker 2I want to stop there . I think if we could pull the thread , and I'll make just a general assumption . The idea of community itself is so indoctrinated in the culture , and the desire to perpetuate and keep community safe made it easier for your community to navigate it .
Speaker 1Yes , and that alone . But if I could keep going I can make it crazier .
Speaker 1So if somebody was , sick and let's say they was in the same shopping center as me . I would get a message and say hey , if you were in the shopping center at this day around this time , consider going to go get tested , because there was a confirmed case that came through that store . If I was to get sick , the government would pay not only my entire salary , I got free . I had free health care because I I'm in Korea single-payer free health care , $60 a month crazy . So I I would go to the doctor , I mean the hospital , until I recovered , or maybe not , and I would that all be paid for . If I was had mild cases and I need to stay home in quarantine , they would literally send a two week box with a thermometer food medicine to my door and then I would take it in .
Speaker 1I would cook , I would eat , I would do whatever , and then , when I feel better , I go back into society .
Speaker 2And that's just a little bit .
Speaker 1There's like so many more things , but that's the three or four I talk about .
Speaker 2And , in contrast , I remember people having conversations like yeah , I feel sick , but I don't know if I'm going to tell them .
Speaker 1I'm going to need you to tell somebody . I couldn't even go in school without the heat scan to see if I had a fever , and then I had to write my temperature on a piece of paper . Then , and then I had to write my temperature on a piece of paper . Then they could say oh yeah , on this day when such and such was sick , he taught this classroom , everybody in that classroom going home , and that's it . Like I think my semester ended when I switched jobs to the public school side in Korea . When a teacher got sick , they sent everybody home . They was like oh , the school is about to end in a week for winter vacation , anyway , send everybody home .
Speaker 1Everybody , everybody go home and then you'll just teach them online .
Speaker 2So you started , you . You started like you got . You know , in the middle of the pandemic , you have this leader who's a leader in position but not in profession . Yes , yes , and you find yourself trying to navigate both the cultural differences and learning your profession yeah , in a foreign country , like how much more did you have to learn the hard way in terms of having a leader ?
Speaker 1that's that how much more did I have to learn , I think , think those are the really two , the two hardest parts . But I guess , if I could say a third thing , it would be learning about myself .
Speaker 2One thing Wait before you go there . Didn't we talk about you getting like performance feedback ? That was really- .
Speaker 1Oh yes . So if I could take a step back from that question and go in this direction . Yeah , when I first joined that center , there was a performance review that's supposed to be had for all teachers every six months . The reason why I had an interview at that company in the first place well , not company , that center in the first place was because a teacher had left to go work in Egypt and her position was open and I interviewed for that role and got her job . Her review was coming up in November . I had just started working in mid-September .
Speaker 1I am one and a half months into teaching in a foreign language . I mean teaching English to kids who some understand English , some don't . Teachers is coming in and they say oh well , usually it's six months , but because we're doing everybody here , we'll just do you right now . We'll just teach right now . We'll just ask you to do , do you right now , we'll just teach right now . We'll just ask you to do the review right now . So not only am I nervous , but I'm still figuring out how to do my job really well .
Speaker 1And they I do the class I teach . Kids love it , obviously , but the I get my feedback and they said oh , you're not performing to the standard that we want , because we felt like some of the things that are lessons that you did were a little bit more difficult than what we think the kids should be getting into . Um , or you did this thing and this is kind of what we want in a way , but they said , because we did your review too early , that we know it's too early , we're going to give you another shot . Coincidentally , my second shot was when we transitioned to teaching English on the internet because of COVID , so kids are at home in a classroom , so my review comes one month after we switched to online learning , the thing that every teacher on the planet was learning how to do through the month of March .
Speaker 2Everybody was on the shuttle bus .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2Those of us who were parenting at home , trying to make the kid do the work and stay in front of the computer while they were doing work .
Speaker 1A thousand percent , a thousand percent . And so I am trying to get my lesson concrete . I'm getting feedback oh , this is how the lesson should go . Talking to the other people at the center , I did my review , um , and then I get another oh , this is not , this is not what we wanted . Oh , you didn't do well . And I was like , of course , I just started teaching virtually like three , four weeks ago . It's not going to be perfect , um , and so , as we move from there , we had a I believe that was like April , so when we get into June , time like June .
Speaker 1It was this , uh , how would I say , this demonstration room that we also ? We bring a lot of students in from different schools and then they watch a demonstration of how to navigate certain situations in English , such as ordering food in restaurants , booking a hotel I mean checking into a hotel , going into an airport and getting and boarding your plane . So I , when I first joined , I was at the restaurant , but in this case they wanted me to make a new lesson for the airport and literally , when you went downstairs into the building , there was a room that had an airport kind of like a security door and a room that had seats that you were entering into an airplane . So I'm making the lesson for it . I'm saying , hey , let's go . We're're gonna go to non-western countries per se . We're gonna go to the US because all kids know US . We're gonna go to Brazil because they love soccer and they love the Brazil team . Um , we're gonna go to Greenland and talk about like penguins or something , just like just making , you know , making stuff up .
Speaker 1So I have the one ticket , please , you know , going through security , have a seat . Here's your seat . You know the whole lesson and I'm giving a demonstration to the director , the coordinator , the other teachers , the other teachers like it . They're like this is good . The director , the coordinator , the other teachers , the other teachers like it . They're like this is good . The director , hands crossed , hmm .
Speaker 2The finance guy director .
Speaker 1Finance guy . He's like hmm , and then he leaves after the thing is over , and then the coordinator says Daphne , I don't think he likes it . He says you should make some changes . What changes Exactly ? I don't know what changes . So I go make some changes . I say , okay , I talk to the other teachers .
Speaker 2I'm sorry , maybe I'm petty , but I probably want to change the font on the paper . No , I think it's .
Speaker 1I don't know the word but I probably would have , like I don't know , changed the font on the paper ?
Speaker 2No , you don't . I think it's .
Speaker 1I don't know the word , but you have to . You have to feel it . You have to feel the changes that you're supposed to make . And so I'm saying okay , the coordinator is like . He said something about the countries . He felt like it's too many countries . I reduced the number of countries to from five to three , streamlined it , Because you don't want the same . I don't want the same experience every single time as well as I want to give the students , when they talk to like other friends that go to different schools . I was like , oh , when we picked , we went to this place and you went to like US , we went to Brazil . Um , just to give you like options , and I have the powerpoint set up to where , when I clicked on it , it took you to a separate section of the powerpoint so that you can go have like a different image yeah , I changed the countries , I streamlined it a little bit more .
Speaker 1I present it again Same thing . You should make some more changes , but what changes are we trying to make ? And it was literally driving me crazy , because not only did I have a bad review , I felt like the situation , I was like messed up from the bad review not once , but twice . I'm also in a situation where I'm incredibly frustrated by just the lack of communication that I could get , in a situation where I'm in like redemption mode . I feel like , and so he just doesn't give me any feedback and it just it just drives me through a wall and I , ultimately , they were like oh , we're just going to scrap the whole thing because you're still online and we were hoping that COVID was supposed to , you know , die down or something , so we're just not going to do it . So not only did I make changes , you also canceled the whole thing altogether and I just felt like work that you never get to produce .
Speaker 1Exactly exactly . And July has come around and we're like halfway through July and I sent an email to the coordinator . I was like , hey , I know , my contract renewal thing is supposed to come up . It's like , hey , I know my contract renewal thing's supposed to come up . I haven't gotten anything back from the director about anything . It's been like a month . She comes to my office directly , almost hand on shoulder , tear in her eye , and was like we're not going to renew your contract . I , if you need help , let me know I will . I will do my best to help you . So now I'm in shambles . I'm in shambles of a . I'm a , I'm a fragment of a man . I used to be in this conversation because I felt like I was just fragment of a man . I used to be in this conversation because I felt like I was just slapped in the face , front hand , back hand , uppercut , I don't know . So , um , yeah , that that's kind of where I'll stop with like that , that boss situation , that that is that the performance management situation .
Speaker 2So they're trying to manage your performance without . Did you ever like send any emails like hey , listen , I got this from you . This is does this sound right ? Did you try to like do a back and forth checking or ?
Speaker 1um , I went through the channel of my coordinator because my Because the hierarchy yes , so I had to communicate through the chain and also the coordinator spoke English , the director zero . So even if I tried to with the Korean that I had learned while being there , I would not have much to really talk to him about or nor have the vocabulary to describe the nuance to have that communication . That's a big barrier . Right , it is huge Because she was the only one that spoke English in the whole administrative office . Everybody else barely spoke english .
Speaker 2They knew some , but not like enough to have like a full conversation with so you have a barrier in communication on many levels , but then you have to ask about your contract before they come and tell you that you ain't going to have no job , no more .
Speaker 1True . I think what she told me was he didn't want to let me down
Finding Resilience and New Opportunities
Speaker 1and so he kind of pushed it all to the side . But my contract expires in September . I will have to go home to the US . What does she mean ? I'm not ready to go back .
Speaker 2He was going to fire you .
Speaker 1He was going to fire you . Yeah , I was like you're firing me , bro . Chill , it's already done . I'm sorry , I'm stuck there .
Speaker 2So how I would interpret this , you asked me you didn't , but I'm going to tell you anyway because it's my show . So what I would interpret is he doesn't like conflict . He made the decision probably on the first iteration of your little airport exercise . Right , yeah , but he didn't want to tell you that .
Speaker 2He didn't want to experience that . A lot of times leaders will make a decision . They will make the decisions up front . I said this is when we did episode seven in the last season , which is when it comes to performance management . It was six .
Speaker 2You know , most leaders will determine right before they put you on that pit that they don't want you anymore right bad boyfriend like I know I don't want this girl , but we're going to keep her here until I can get a new one Like it's bad . He knew I'm assuming I'm just Natalie's picture . You jump through all of those hoops and he didn't want the conflict of having to deliver that message . And so he did it , because what he could have done is had the administrator there right , the assistant there and had the conversation like , tell him this , tell him this , tell him this .
Speaker 2But he didn't , which to me seems a bit disrespectful . But again , culturally I can't say . I don't want to superimpose my values into .
Speaker 1We're still in shock , but again culturally , I can't say , I don't want to superimpose my values into it . We're still in shock , but I think ultimately it was a saving grace . It was a saving grace why is that ? Because in that moment , because it was COVID , they could not bring any teachers into the country . Because it was COVID , they could not bring any teachers into the country , and so some people had decided to leave , to go back to their home country , and they had a shortage of teachers to fill certain roles . Nice .
Speaker 1So one day I'm on Facebook , on the Facebook group for the teachers that all the teachers that's on the island , the ones that work at the international schools , the one that work at the hagwons , the ones that work for the public schools and the foreign language schools I see one that says , hey , we're looking for teachers that go work for EPIC , which is the English program in Korea , which is funded through the government , in Jeju specifically , and they already live here and they don't need to do anything . I literally turn in my exact application to that foreign language center , because it was through the government , so it had the same application , turn the same thing in . I talked to the coordinator . I tell her , hey , I'm doing this . She says all right , great , the lady calls her the coordinator . The coordinator says I love Daphne , he's such a great person , blah , blah , blah .
Speaker 1And the lady says great , I literally get a job working in a different department of the foreign I mean of the POE or the Provincial Office of Education . So I just go and just switch under to the public school side , which put me about an hour away from my current apartment , and I live on the southern part of the island in an area called Sogipo . Sogipo is more relaxed , it's more small town , even though it's like the second largest city on the island , but smaller time , smaller bite . People are way more friendly , because now you're even more farther south than you were and you know as you go south in most countries , the friendlier people get .
Speaker 2So that's actually not a lie . Being a northerner now , southern bell is very true , very , very true .
Speaker 1So I'm even more South than I was . So even the North part people are friendly . But now I'm more South than that , so they're more friendly and I have more stable hours because I was working literally from 8.30 to 3.30 , versus 11 to 6 some days or 8 to 3 . So my schedule was stabilized and I was able to have more free time and get back into Muay Thai , which was something I had picked up before I moved to Korea , and it worked out . And that's why I say the adventure can't stop the resilience . When you're met with these hurdles , you just jump over them or , in my case , punch a hole through it because Muay Thai and you just go right through the wall . Because if I had stopped with that review and went home , I don't think a lot of doors that I was able to open for myself would have opened if I had gave up .
Speaker 1So when I saw that message , I luckily and this is one thing I'll say I had luckily built a really good rapport and relationship with that coordinator , like had conversations with her . I found out her husband used to work . Uh , when he joined , when he had to do his mandatory conscription for the Korean military , he worked on a military base in Camp Humphreys in Korea , and so he had this favorite soda that I was able to get my hands on because I had a cousin that worked at Camp Humphreys that I had no idea even existed until I flew to Korea . So I was able to go on base , buy her husband's favorite soda and bring it back to her , and so she's like oh my God , daphne , you're like the best person ever . I had built that rapport with her specifically because she ultimately ended up being my ticket out .
Speaker 2I love that story because I tell people all the time . More often than not , folks fail at navigating some of these bad situations because they haven't built up their assets , they haven't built up their network , they haven't built up their advocates who can help them maneuver these systems . Because the system is what the system is . You can't get mad at the system . You can get mad at you not learning how to navigate and exploit the system yes and and not the person .
Speaker 2Not the person . Don't be used to it . I'm not telling you to go and be used to , but the fact that you were able to connect the dots on like oh , you like that soda , let me get that soda and building , you know , like-mindedness in relationship , I think , is incredible . So tell me , what's one thing like of all of the things that you learned out of ? Like all of the dynamics , the cultural , the hierarchy , all of that Like , what did you learn about yourself , daphaphne , when it comes to having lived abroad as an educator .
Speaker 1Uh , one thing I learned about myself had to be that I it was . It was a lot . I think I was a guy who ultimately was very friendly , but I really started drawing a lot of boundaries with people , because my friends don't cross my boundaries , but people who are not your friends tend to always try and do just a little too much . I'm new Give me an example .
Speaker 2Give me an example .
Speaker 1In the workspace .
Speaker 2Give me an example .
Speaker 1In the workspace . I think , at work it was more chill . At work there was no chill . This is all outside of work which ultimately affected work sometimes , because then it takes up like mental space and you can't do your lessons or whatever .
Speaker 2Tell me about the boundaries that people will be crossing . Tell me .
Speaker 1I have a zero stress tolerance . I don't like stress . I as like external stress . If it's stress that I kind of got myself into , like I applied for a job and I didn't get a job , that is fine . But when other people start creating the stress and then bringing it to my life and trying to involve me in that , I draw the line .
Speaker 1So I was once dating a young lady out there who was Korean , who had lived and went to college in Connecticut . This is this was like a three , three month kind of thing . It wasn't like even super deep . She wasn't even officially my girlfriend . She was just a lady who I liked . But something in the back of my mind was like this is not . This is this is my first time like dating another person outside of my race . This is gonna be like different . So I'm taking this with like a lot of hesitation , a lot of precaution . So she ended up getting into an argument with another foreigner who was a teacher and a lady shot a bird at her and she took that so personally shot a bird , a middle finger flip the flip her off , flip her off .
Speaker 2Okay . I was like I think I know what that is sorry , yeah , yeah . So for the middle finger , why ? Why would ? Why should she take it personally ?
Speaker 1I said is this can be resolved if you just either have a conversation about it or ignore her , because she doesn't matter as a person , she don't matter , she's in your country . You could just let it go , you don't have to hang around her . I was like there's so many foreigners that I've met that I just dismissed and I don't hang out with you , don't even have to hang around her . I was like there's so many foreigners that I've met that I just dismissed and I don't hang out with them . I don't communicate with them because they're like outlandish or foolish or they do things I don't agree with .
Speaker 1I remember her like escalating it and she's like , oh , let's go to this thing because I know she'll be there and such and such .
Building Boundaries and Personal Growth
Speaker 1Or she'll be there and such and such , or she'll say , um , I'm gonna take her to court and I'm gonna do all this . And I was like please stop it's , it's not that deep . We really it could be solved with just talking . I was like you're where , you've lived abroad , you lived in the US , you know how Americans act . Just handle it like an American would , and this problem would be resolved so simple .
Speaker 1I was like I could just handle it for you . No , she wanted to take it to court , she wanted to do all of this , and I was like , yeah , I got to distance myself from this situation and ultimately , that relationship came and went . There was a couple other things in there too , but I was just like you , you're not going to involve me in this repeatedly . After I gave you the scenario or wish that could resolve it , like the , the resolve it , and a month passed and you're just still . You're just still choosing to , to not resolve it and be and escalate , and escalate , and escalate .
Speaker 2Well . So I think one of the things that comes to mind for me is that , more often than not , people don't want resolution . They want to be right , and there's a difference yeah , there's a difference between wanting to resolve and move forward and grow for you and the other person , versus I'm more right than you are , and so I've got to one up you and show you that I'm right and I'm standing on the principle not of the value , not of the long-term , long game , but of the fact that I'm more right than you , and that creates this interesting dissonance . I know we're almost at time when it comes to the bad boss situation . What's one thing that you learned about Daphne Brown , like ? What's one thing that , like , I learned that you know , I heard some things about resilience . I heard some things about the networking , like . What's one other thing for your own leadership style that you've learned working ?
Speaker 1like . What's one other thing for your own leadership style that you've learned ? My leadership style that I came up , that I , I think , works best for me and that's something I've also carried through my uh MBA program that I pursued post leaving Korea was I want to be a person who is known for not just being somebody's boss but advocating for them to be better at their job and also being there to help them if they need help , and being more of a team player and leading from within than leading from the front , if that makes sense .
Speaker 2It makes complete sense .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'm going to say kind of like a servant leader . But I don't know , I don't , I don't , I'm not super fond of that one Very quickly Tell me , why I think some people hear like servant leader , but they don't believe in it . They just use it as like a buzzword for their company .
Speaker 2Oh , wait a minute . You're mad at the hypocrisy ? Yeah , that's why I don't want to .
Speaker 1I don't want to align myself with the hypocrisy of servant leadership as a title . I think I genuinely think when you're able to build relationships within you , create stronger work synergy and you can have people say , you know , be vulnerable , and say if they can't produce something , they just don't do it and not tell you . They say , hey , something's going on . I know you well enough you will hope you can understand . This is how I would like to move forward with it and how we can navigate . You know the team better to create the best outcome , and I guess one example I can give about this was I had a . I was the team lead for a consulting project in Tel Aviv , the . We were working with a startup that had they were running out of money . They had a project . I mean they had a product that was doing AI , behavioral economics and trying to understand how we can push more , get customers to buy more while they're inside apps , especially when they're in mobile gaming apps , or , in business terms , you call them whales . The whales are the ones who spend the money in the app to help fund the app itself . So two of my teammates were terrible at public speaking and if you have five minutes , you have five minutes . You get cut off . They stammered , they ate up a lot of time because they didn't have , like the , the first public speaking skills to navigate that situation . And so , as we're working on the project through , they knew I was a little disappointed because I was the anchor , I was the one that's supposed to send it home . I couldn't even get the send it home because we got stopped . So they was like , definitely might be a little mad . I wasn't mad , I was just disappointed .
Speaker 1So when I started communicating I would say you know , hey , I understand that you are great at strategy .
Speaker 1Let's move you to strategy and let's move you up so that if we need to speed up , we can have you say things and then I'll bring myself after because I could talk through these things faster and then we can make up for the time if we do lose it .
Speaker 1But I want you to know we're gonna give you , out of 12 slides , we're gonna still give you two slides , but we're gonna make sure we practice on how you communicate it and that way we can deliver the best possible thing to the client and to our professors that are grading us . We at the end got the best presentation because we also had the hardest startup to work with because they had no money , they had no product to sell , so we actually were set up to fail from the beginning . But due to a lot of interpersonal skills that I've learned while I was in Korea and navigating , and my plethora of abilities like not abilities plethora of travels that I have been to and interacting with people from different countries , I can navigate it with a lot more sympathy , empathy and nuance . And also , just being my naturally charismatic self , I can kind of work around certain situations to be the best team player and also the best leader .
Speaker 2No , I totally appreciate that , especially when it comes to utilizing people for their skills and not trying to keep pressing them in places where they literally obviously have no skills or at least they haven't developed the skills yet . I think that's , that's absolutely a part of servant leadership is giving people the grit , like not being mad or like , oh my god , you wasted all my time . Like , oh well , this went well , but we could have done this better . It's a balance and trade and and frankly , I think a lot of us lack diplomacy right , like not only just the empathy , just the diplomatic way of not being completely circular but acknowledging the good with the bad and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater , you know to use a phrase . So , daphne , if there's one thing you would want educators at least young educators coming into the scene that may be thinking of like following kind of your journey , what would be the one thing you would want people to know ?
Speaker 1I think if anybody was trying to get into higher education or ESL , you need to be willing to say yes . There's a lot of situations where you are , for example , thrown into a foreign land and you don't speak Korean or you don't speak Thai or you don't speak Arabic . Say yes to going outside and making friends that don't look like you or come from the same country as you . Say yes to going on excursions with those same friends and I don't know , going to hike the tallest mountain in South Korea or do hiking trails around the entire island .
Speaker 1There is so much beauty and and I don't know like this Juno Sequa about and Wanderlust , about just experiencing that , and whether you get homesick or miss walking outside and seeing people who look like you , there's still a beauty , especially as a person of color I'm a black person at being the best representation for my students to understand how black people interact with them , so that when they grow up they don't see certain stereotypes of black people and say , hey , this is not how my teacher acted when they were in school , um , educating me . I am an ambassador for my ethnic group , my race , my community . I am being that , so say yes to being
Leadership Lessons and Future Ventures
Speaker 1more than just an individual . Say yes to being a part of a community .
Speaker 2Daphne . This has been a really great conversation . I want to know , like , what's next for you , Like what's going down in Browntown , what's happening ?
Speaker 1Well , right now , post-mba , I am still looking for full-time work . It has been a turbulent job market . However , in the meantime and having all this free time , I have launched a tea and coffee business that will be arriving this month of July and it's called Kwanzaa , which means first in Swahili , because the first thing that you think about when you wake up is my tea or my morning coffee . And , yeah , happy to have got this far after two years of planning , execution , going to Kenya , going to meet different farmers , understanding the landscape and sourcing all of our products from East Africa .
Speaker 2Melissa , I cannot wait to taste my first cup of Kwanzaa , and we wish you all the best success . We're going to make sure we have all of your connections and social media handles in the show notes . Daphne Brown thanks for being on the show .
Speaker 1Thank you so much . It's been a pleasure .
Speaker 2Today's episode is brought to you by Natalie Parker Enterprises , where we shape the future and unlock potential by helping organizations and people work together to do good work . Find out more at thenatalieparkercom , or , if you'd like to be a sponsor , email us at info at thenatalieparkercom .
