S4 E3 Workplace Bullying Is Real...And Lots of Bosses Do It

What happens when a difficult boss crosses the line from demanding to damaging?

In this episode, Natalie gets personal about workplace bullying—starting with her first real HR job in 2005 and a leader who made her question her work, her judgment, and eventually herself.

And this isn't a fringe workplace problem. The Workplace Bullying Institute's 2024 national survey estimates that 52.2 million U.S. workers have been directly bullied at work, while 74.8 million have either experienced or witnessed it. The survey also found that bosses remain the most common perpetrators, accounting for 55% of reported bullying situations. lie isn't here just to tell you bullying is bad.

She's giving you a survival strategy.

You'll learn how to recognize bullying tactics, understand what may be driving the behavior, identify your own triggers, document what is happening, ask questions that force vague attacks into specific conversations, and decide when survival has become too expensive.

Most importantly, Natalie reminds us that navigating a bully strategically doesn't mean surrendering your dignity.

Sometimes survival is the strategy.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

Workplace Bullying Institute
Research, education, training, and resources focused on workplace bullying and abusive conduct.
https://workplacebullying.org/

2024 WBI U.S. Workplace Bullying Survey
National research on the prevalence of workplace bullying, who is affected, who commits it, and what happens to employees who are targeted.
https://workplacebullying.org/2024-wbi-us-survey/

Healthy Workplace Bill
Information and legislative updates related to efforts to address workplace bullying through state law.
https://healthyworkplacebill.org/

U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission: Harassment
Information about unlawful workplace harassment, protected characteristics, reporting, and employee rights.
https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment

U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission: Retaliation
Guidance on retaliation related to reporting discrimination, harassment, or participating in a protected workplace investigation.
https://www.eeoc.gov/retaliation

Workplace Mental Health: Bullying
Information about the mental-health, productivity, absenteeism, and organizational effects of workplace bullying.
https://workplacementalhealth.org/mental-health-topics/bullying

Employee Assistance Program — EAP
Your employer’s EAP may offer confidential counseling, mental-health support, referrals, and workplace resources. Contact your HR department or benefits provider for access information.

The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz
Natalie references the importance of not taking other people’s behavior personally while still responding strategically and protecting yourself.
https://www.miguelruiz.com/the-four-agreements/

The Wiz
Natalie references the song “Don’t Nobody Bring Me No Bad News” as a memorable example of leadership that makes employees afraid to share problems or difficult information.  You can stream this movie on most major platforms.

“Bully Boss” by Meatraffle
A humorous song about bad workplace leadership, featured on the album Base and Superstructure.
https://blangrecords.bandcamp.com/album/base-and-superstructure

So Your Boss Sucks, Now What? — Bad Boss Bully Companion Guide
Download the companion guide, worksheets, and strategies for recognizing and navigating the Bad Boss Bully archetype.
https://yourbosssucks.com/episode-info 

So Your Boss Sucks, Now What? Website
Access episode resources, tools, and additional support.
https://yourbosssucks.com/

Important Note

Workplace bullying is not automatically unlawful under federal employment law. Certain behavior may be legally actionable when it involves discrimination or harassment based on a protected characteristic, retaliation for protected activity, threats, violence, or violations of state or local law.

This episode is for educational purposes and is not legal, medical, or mental-health advice. Consider contacting a qualified attorney, licensed mental-health professional, your Employee Assistance Program, or the appropriate government agency for guidance related to your specific situation.

This episode is brought to you by Natalie Parker Enterprises.  Interested in becoming a sponsor? Connect with us at info@thenatalieparker.com

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Recognize the pattern. Protect your peace. Plan your next move.

And remember: don’t let your boss suck the life out of you.

Transcript

A First HR Job With A Bully

SPEAKER_00 0:00

In January 2005, I got my first real job in HR. I was living in Florida, and I will never forget the later I had. No matter what I did, she wasn't happy. No matter what I worked on, she wasn't satisfied. She always made me feel like I was doing something wrong. And I felt like she suspected me, like I was just this like bad egg or something. And I remember giving her some work. And she looked at it over the phone. She was in DC area and I was in Florida. And she said to me, You know what, Natalie? Your problem is you don't know what you don't know. And that's why your work is bad. I didn't know what to do with that. I didn't know at the time. Or maybe I did. Perhaps I did know that I was working for a bully. And it wasn't until I started researching for this episode that I realized that 52 million people in the workplace know what that feels like. So let's get into it. And

How Big Workplace Bullying Really Is

SPEAKER_00 1:35

this episode's probably gonna be triggering for some of you, especially if you've been bullied at work before. I did not realize it until we started looking in and researching for this specific episode that this was such a big deal. Like I knew bad managers exist. I knew micromanagers were prevalent, but there's nothing you could have told me to say that like workplace bullying is not only a thing, it's a big thing. And it's a big thing that many deal with. So I'm gonna try to have some levity in this episode, but I can't promise it. Cause if you've ever been bullied in your life, be it at school, be it at church, be it anywhere, it is an emotional thing. It's kind of heavy. And so we're gonna try to keep it breezy, but I'm also gonna keep it real. When you told when I found out that there were 52 million people at work feel bullied, that's a huge thing. The other thing I didn't realize, y'all, there is an actual institute for this, Workplace Bullying Institute, that gathers all of this information, facts, and research on how negative behavior, bullying, power tripping, all of the things affect people at the workplace to the point where 74.8 million Americans have been affected either by experience or witnessing bullying at work. So there's only one in four people that actively have a job right now that have been bullied. Right. I thought, you know, we were doing something with micromanagement, but bullying is a thing. And so let's let's get into it. Let's talk about why this is such a problem in our workforce. Something that I need to differentiate about micromanagement. Micromanagement is a behavior. Like people who micromanagement manage, part of that is in their DNA, their sometimes it's their personality, that they they want every detail, eyes dotted, T's crossed, and they don't trust anybody but themselves. That is a behavior. I would assert that bullying is a tactic. Bullying is a tactic where people use their power, their authority to lord over

Micromanagement Versus Bullying

SPEAKER_00 3:55

and make what someone feel less than themselves, less than um the value, the power that they have. And the Institute, the Workplace Bullying Institute, fascinated by this. And if you wanted to go check it out, it's workplacebullying.org. They define bullying as the repeat health-harming mistreatment by one or more employees to another employee. Abusive conduct that takes the form of verbal abuse or behaviors perceived as threatening, intimidating, humiliating, or work sabotage. I don't know if anybody's had their work sabotaged before, but it's a thing. And this organization like does a ton of studies on and training on workplace bullying. So go check it out. Kudos to the folks that are doing the work there. I would not have even begun to, as an HR practitioner, I, you know, I I pride myself in being more of an organizational development, leadership coach, consultant, what have you. But I do have some jobs in the HR development, the core HR space. So that's, you know, talent acquisition, that's employee relations, all of the things. Right. So we know that harassment is a problem. We know that in the early 90s, harassment training, and all that started to become mandatory. And the concept specifically of bullying is even more prevalent and building more awareness now. One in four organizations told by Gallup said that they have a problem with workforce bullying. 75% of workforce bullying goes unreported, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And according to the workforce bullying survey from the Workforce Bullying Institute, they said that more than 87% of Americans want some kind of law against it. Right? Just think about that. There's a lot of people who are affected by this. And I can honestly say that I feel like there is a missing discourse in the conversation about the psychological warfare that comes along with dealing with the leader, a manager who bullies you, right? Whether that's your manager, your, you know, your supervisor, whatever, it's a whole thing. And it's a tactic that people use to wield their power to control and to manipulate. And it's, it's, it's, it's crazy. It's crazy. Uh for me, I have worked for people who have used bullying. They may not have been a full-fledged bullying bully, but my God, they definitely could pull the card when they needed it. Whether that was they didn't appreciate my pushback or they just wanted a certain way. Um, I've had leaders yell. I've never had a leader throw things. Although I will say that I have heard stories in many of my organizations where that has been a bit of a norm, but yelling, absolutely. Uh, another statistic I read, which I thought was crazy, was 71% of bully bullies reported are men. So men hold the seat of bullies. But I will tell you that I never had a man bully me. I've had men be passive aggressive, which is also a form of bullying, but I never got scared of them. Like uh I have the bullies that I've encountered were typically women, typically women who use both um aggression and anger and disapproval, almost in a narcissistic way, of like, I disapprove of what you're doing, or I disapprove of you. Like that was a norm in at least the bullies that I encountered. Um, so it's interesting. So let's let's listen to we've defined bullying.

What Bullying Looks Like At Work

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Let's talk about some of the behaviors. Like, if you have a bully, how do you know it's a bully? A couple of signs. One is they have no problem humiliating you, right? Have no problem with calling you a name, um, embarrassing you in front of others, no problem with it whatsoever. Um, I've had leaders that I've had to cult where they've called someone stupid in public. Like, that's just the dumbest thing I've ever heard, Floyd. Like, whoa, you know, who are you talking to, sir? Right? Have no problem with it. Uh a general bully who, like someone who uses it consistently as a tactic, typically will have one or two favorites and then will like, you know, pepper spray everybody else. Everybody gets a piece of the bully. No one's untouchable, and their behavior is generally erratic and unpredictable, and it creates anxiety through the whole team. Um, I think about one leader who, oh my God, um, she had such a negative aura now that I think about it. You it just you could just hear the theme song from the Wizard of Oz and the Wicked West. You know, with her riding the bike in Toto and the chassis, right? And the in the basket. It was, it was that, like you could feel that wind blowing when she came into the office. It was just like, oh, dear God. Telling you, he sucks the life right out of you. What's interesting about a bully is they may be mean as Hades to you, but let someone with a higher level of authority, let a peer who has some level of influence, and they magically become, I don't know, some gracious person that you never experience. So, you know, it could be mean, like, I don't know what you're doing, and I I can't stand this, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then let their boss come in, oh, it's so great to see you, and they're cackling and they're smiling. Anyone triggered by this? Because just thinking about it's making me sweat. Right. Uh, very collegiate, you know, has no problem switching, right? They may have reactions disproportionate to the situation. And it reminds me, I guess I'm gonna be in a Wizard of Oz theme here, but it reminds me of the Wiz. So that's the black version. The Blackity Black, Michael Jackson, Nipsey Russell, Diana Ross version of the whiz. And if you have visited Wizard of Oz, and if you have not seen it, go find it. I think it's on Amazon Prime. It is a Pope classic. And, you know, for those of us who are a part of the African-American community, I challenge you. If you haven't seen it, I'm taking your black card. But in this episode, right? In this, in this movie, the the wicked whist of the West is Evelyn, is played by the young lady who was the mom for Roger, Roger. I think her name was Maybelline King. She played the uh mom from What's Happening. And she sang this song called Don't Nobody Bring Me No Dad. No bad news.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

But don't nobody bring me no bad news.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Don't nobody bring me no bad news, right? And she stomps around and she's, you know, huffing and puffing and all the things. It's a beautiful orchestrated number. I think Debbie Allen did the choreography, Quincy Jones did all the music. It is a y'all go watch this movie if you haven't. But that song, Don't Nobody Bring Me No Bad News, is a whole bully anthem. If you have a bully that you work with, if you have a bully that's a boss, you dread having to give them bad information because you understand and know that the smoke and the fires come into your face. You don't want it. You don't even want it. You don't even want it. And it is exhausting because every day feels like a hurricane. Another, another um characteristic of a bully is someone who gaslights you. So they say something sideways, you say something back, and it's imaginally, oh, you're you're too sensitive. You didn't, that's not what I said. That's not what I meant. Right. So this is where magically they have revisionist history on not only what they said, but potentially they're very much aware of their impact they have on you. And you can't help but wonder why these people have such a good longevity in the organization. Like, why doesn't the organization call them out? Why does HR protect them? All of the

Why Bullies Keep Their Jobs

SPEAKER_00 12:44

things. I'm gonna tell you a couple of reasons. Top five. First, bullies exist in the organization because somewhere along the line, in their matriculation as they come through the brakes, their hard nose approach has somehow been successful. And people accept it because they're able to put points on the board. True story. I've seen leaders who are just terrible to other human beings. But because they're able to make their numbers and create a return on investment, an ROI for the company, the company's willing to suffer fools gladly because that person makes the numbers. Number two. Because the person makes their numbers, right? The second reason is they generally have some level of sponsorship, someone who, if they are able to deflect the noise from the bottom and keep the positive above the cream, above the fold, you then have people who admire this person for what they're able to accomplish, not realizing that they're creating collateral damage and bodies in the wake because they're able to create these numbers. And so you have they then typically are good about being connected to people, being well um supported, having having either mentors or allies who look after them, right? That's number two. Number three, the people who are victims of said bully don't have those same allies, don't have those same mentors. Number four, and this is what I've told y'all since season one, people have terrible documentation. So when you don't document what happens consistently, right, if you don't document it, then what how what are we in HR supposed to do? We know that Susie is trash in terms of the way she treats people. We know that Bobby is trash by the way he treats people. But if we can't consistently show how that affects the organization, it becomes an interpersonal conversation and less about behavior in terms of impacting the workforce. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just telling you how things work under the hood. And then the last final reason I think that bullies are protected in the organization because there's just not enough noise. If more people came together and said, this is unacceptable, if leaders above them said this is unacceptable, right? These are our values and we will not treat people this way, you would have none of this noise. You would have none. But I've found that more often than not, most people who manage other managers they manage to the outcomes, not to the behavior. And that differentiation is very consistent across much of organizations worldwide. We are taught to manage to the outcome, not to the behavior that will perpetuate healthy relationships and people. And so you see this kind of perpetual loop, right? And the other reason why people kind of don't bother is because they need their jobs. Like, listen, I will, I hate the foolishness, I will deal with it, but I need this job because I gotta pay my mortgage.

The Legal Gap And Real Risk

SPEAKER_00 16:10

What makes this even more discouraging is that there is no, there's no law, right? There's there's law against sexual harassment, like that's pretty clear. Although most bullying um from a from a sexual perspective, from sexual harassment is actually very common. There's no workplace law against the kind of mistreatment that comes with workplace bullying. New York has a bill, I believe, as so does Massachusetts and Virginia. But um actually, New York has a healthy workplace bill that's currently active. Um and Massachusetts and Virginia are working on one, but no state has a full law yet. And so if your boss could do all of these things that I've described, they could be passive aggressive, they could be aggressive-aggressive, they could call you stupid, they could do a bunch of other things. But legally speaking, there's no recourse of consequences legally that protect you from working place bullying, which I think is a is a whole bigger conversation. I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but that's a problem here in the States. Um and so and so we have this this problem, guys. This this problem. And I would say that I think it's gonna get better, worse before it gets better. I think AI is gonna continue to exacerbate, to make worse bad leadership behavior or bad managerial behavior. Because at the end of the day, this isn't even a management principle. This is like be a decent human being, right? And so you're probably looking at me like, okay, Natalie, like why do I do that? What do I do with this? First, I I want to tell you, could kind of avoid some of the triggers, right? Don't be like me. Like when I had workpace bullies, especially that were bosses, I either got really sassy or I got really quiet, right? Because workplace bullying is a it's emotional warfare, right? It's psychological warfare. And so if you are not ready to play, sometimes it's great to withdraw, but you're still gonna get the barrage. So let me share with you a couple of things that may help you in navigating your workplace bullying situation. A couple of things first, uh, workplace bullies don't like being either publicly contradicted or challenged. Right? Some leaders are really great about I didn't think about it that way. But if your leader appreciates

How To Challenge Without Backlash

SPEAKER_00 18:54

their position, their power, their authority, that's what they rest on. Publicly challenging them is something that's going to um create uh a discomfort for you. You will get some level of backlash afterwards. I'm not saying you shouldn't challenge, I'm saying be very strategic about how you challenge. They also don't like being like no one can have more shine than them, right? Because the a lie is on me, right? Um, I've had some leaders who, you know, they have people who are very bright and and they all but become American psycho because they are jealous of the worker, of the person that works for them. Um so I I will tell you, I found myself dim like trying to contemplate how to dim my light so that my manager wouldn't feel so triggered. If not good. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just telling you, like, here's some things you need to be aware of. Um when workplace bullies get the most pressure of like either a high-stakes situation, a major event, the bullying gets worse. So I tell the story in my TED talk that um, you know, we were preparing for an event, a major event. My boss was persona non grata for in a long time. Like we we knew that this was coming, it was a quarterly review, it was supposed to happen. I couldn't get her to meet with me. I prepared as much as I could. And two days before the event, magically she's surfacing in, like, she's stressed out. And I tell her, hey, listen, I got a family situation. Her response is like, I'm sorry, but who's gonna do your work? And the level of anxiety it brought me was so jarring. I felt like I had no recourse, no, no advocate. I had no, like being where I am now, you know, 15, 20 years removed from the situation, I feel better and more sober. But at the moment, I could have, I'm red, right? I see red. They the more people in these positions are are pressured by external stressors, like demands from their boss, um, demands from a situation, it gets worse and it usually comes back at you. Another, another kind of bullying tactic is someone getting credit. I will never forget. Now, this is a leader. This leader was um someone who I admired, adored. I went back to work for them. I did this major event, came up with much of the idea, executed it well. Um, and when it was over, got accolades the whole nine. And that leader who had, you know, co-signed on a bunch of like things that I was good at and good performance reviews, pulled me aside and tried to put me on a performance improvement plan and told me that I was getting too big for my britches. His response to me doing great work and getting visibility from senior executives. I worked for him, but like in my mind, I'm like, this is good for both of us. Nope, you're getting too big for your purchase. I had advocates, so I was able to kind of navigate around it because there was no standing for a performance improvement plan. But this gentleman had written me up because he was feeling super fragile and told me, I think was I was I 30 by then? I don't know. But it was crazy. Like, imagine you're in a meeting with your leader, and I'm thinking it's going to be, oh, you're so great that you did this amazing thing. The event was a mm-mm. You're getting too big for your britches. Not nothing constructive about work. Just um, as the old folks say, girl, you get the big head. That like that was the conversation. Um this is uh this last one like that triggers bad um, you know, bully behavior is the subordinate not showing deference. I can promise you all, don't be like me. Don't be like me. I

Visibility Jealousy And Forced Deference

SPEAKER_00 23:05

believe that part of one of my flaws may be pride. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're the president, I don't care if you're the mayor. You put your pants on just like I do. And uh I'm not going to lick your boot. I'm just not. God made me just like he made you. And that caused me a lot of problems when I worked in corporate America. I have since learned how to be more gracious. Um, I've since learned that there is a benefit in meeting people where they are in their both fragility and pride. I often felt that if I gave you deference, then I was dismissing my own value and power. Now I see it as like, if that's what you need, Merry Christmas, I can still be me and great if you need me to call you, you know, um the princess bride or whatever it is you need. Like, I'm I'm I'm okay with that. Like I'm okay with having, oh, yes, madam, frufru. Merry Christmas. If that's what you need in order for you to hear me. And I think that's maybe the big takeaway before I go in through my whole list. It's like, figure out the pattern. I say this all the time. Figure out the pattern of what the person needs in order to feel safe, because they don't feel safe with you. And you may feel like it's selling out. I'm telling you, some of this is just survival. Some of it's survival, some of it's creating your own psychological safety until you can document up, until you can cooperate with other people, until you can get your, until you can get your advocates and folks in the room to help you kind of pull the hatch out of the situation. Sometimes you need to play along. And I'm I'm sorry if it's unless it's your name on the door, there are very many unwritten rules to how this works. Now I'm not telling you to stay in unsafe places. If you are, you know, if if the toll of what is happening to you psychologically, if the toll is of what's happening to you emotionally is too much for you to bear, seek help, get every piece of help you need. Go to your HR people, go to the employee assistance program, get a therapist, whatever you need, because this can psychologically break you. I remember coaching uh an individual whose manager was just a malcontent. Nothing the young lady did made the leader happy. I believe it was a combination of the young woman having just a myriad of health issues and she couldn't necessarily show up all of the time the way she needed to. But also, I don't know that the boss was, how do you say, I don't think the boss was compassionate enough to help define what success looked like for this employee. Because sometimes you may not know what the boss expects, but asking them saying, show me right here, what do you want from here? What and what am I doing wrong? Right. Show having that conversation is crucial because then you can learn what they're looking for. But if they're unwilling to do that, it's really a tough situation. And that's when you need to start having conversations about whether or not this is time to pull the ribcord and find somewhere else to work. You can't live with me, so don't quit your job, right? But figure out if this is worth it. Remember, last episode we said the first thing you need to do is define your why. Why are you there? Is it the paycheck? Is it the mortgage? Is it the kids? Is it the benefits? Is it the skill that you're trying to gain for this temporary moment of time? But the worst thing you could do is try to suffer a situation like this without a level of hope of something on the other side of it. Whether that's you trying to, you know, level up, get a degree, whatever it is, you've got to build in a hope beyond the gloom and cloud of a leader who is a bully.

Make Them Say It Out Loud

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Uh, I think it might also be helpful to know like what does a bully sound like? Like, so okay, Natalie, I you know I've had all of these things, but what does it sound like? Um it sounds like insults. Like, okay, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Like, I don't understand why you can't get this right. Or honestly, I don't know if you're cut out for this role. Right. That's an that's another kind of yeah, you know, all of these microaggressions in the conversation. I had one leader, I went out on maternity leave, and when I came back, they were like, I'm I'm honestly just surprised that you even came back. Like, oh, well, based on my performance reviews, my bonuses, and all the other things, I am a high-performing individual. What is it they're asking? Right? I like if you go, if you go and book, go come on, right? If you're if you're gonna go there, I'm going to go there too. Now, again, don't be sassy like me. I'm gonna give you some ideas on how you can still engage in a cool, calm, and collected way with your bully boss without losing your job completely. Now, let me be very clear. According to the workforce, um, the workplace bully institute, they say that 62% of people who are targeted like consistently, incessantly by a bully boss, they lose their jobs or they're forced to quit. Some of you may not realize, but if your boss was kind and sweet and then they turned into a bully and a meanie or whatever, they may just be trying to push you out. And for that, I'm gonna give you a piece of advice. The same advice I gave, I think it was in season one, episode nine, which is make them say the quiet part out loud. If they put you on a pip, ask, are you trying to rehabilitate me? Um are we agreeing that I'm I have the opportunity to get better, or are you trying to get rid of me? Because if they're trying to get rid of you, make them say it out loud and make them come up with a way that it's amiable for you and them, right? Whether that's asking for a package, asking for um severance, like listen, let's just let's just part ways. Give me, give me two weeks, sleep, three weeks, whatever it is, right? Ask the question. You have not because you asked not. The worst they can say is no, right? But having an idea of what their intention is and asking, like, you're you're behaving like this. It seems like you're not interested in me have being successful. Can you help me understand? And if that's the case, what can we do? We promised that you we'd explain to you kind of the

Fear-Based Leadership And The Cost

SPEAKER_00 29:47

psychology of a bully boss. So here's what I want to kind of give get you to come think with me on. Many bullies operate out of fear. And so they operate, they personally operate from a place of fear. And so they create fear to create compliance. They don't want commitment. Commitment is, oh, we're doing this together. Compliance is you did what I said. It's a different. They also tend to be aggressive at the idea of being exposed. So for those of you who are aware of imposter syndrome, it is the negative self-talk that drives you to believe that you are less than not qualified, what have you. All of us have a propensity for that in some way, shape, or form to some extent. Some of us have it louder than others. For the bully manager, their aggression is real, and it's typically from a place of feeling exposed. So they may have the title, but not the credential. They may feel like, you know, as a potential, like the only woman, the only minority, whatever, sometimes, I don't know. Um, they need the dominance as a place of defense to keep their position. So the dominance, the aggression is a as a position of both each defense and offense to protect themselves. And what's really wild is as they're protecting themselves, they're degrading the quality of work in the organization. According to the American Psychological Association, they say that the annual cost for abusive behavior and workplace bullying is somewhere north of $300 billion. Billion with a B of lost productivity, turnover, you know, shot. Anybody else just take a mental health day? Because they like, I just can't deal with the psychological warfare that comes with coming to work for her. Right? All of that. And it's it's just it's just expensive. According to the Workplace Mental Health Alliance, they're the work days lost every year because of workplace bullying cost the United States employers $18 million. I actually think that's a low number. I think it's probably higher than that. What's interesting news-wise is that in the UK, the government has banned non-disclosure agreements to cover up workplace misconduct. Um, interesting because you'll hear when you have a severance package or whatever, you've got to send this agreement like, I'm not going to talk bad about y'all, I'll see who y'all, whatever. It's it's a it's a real thing, folks. So let's get to the meat and potatoes of like, okay, Natalie, you've given me the perspective, you've given me the psychology, you've given me all the things. Now,

The ANCHOR Framework For Survival

SPEAKER_00 32:39

how do you deal with the bullying? I want to go back to my anchor framework. And the anchor framework is one where you use your own values, your own judgment to help you navigate effectively the situation that you're in, right? So, first you're gonna assess the situation. What are the facts? What are the facts of the situation, not the emotions? Like, so um, for the boss who called me and was like, Yeah, like honey person and why you're doing this job, because you don't know what you don't know, right? She said that. That's a fact. You don't know what you don't know. What I heard was, I can't stand you. But that's not what she said. She said, You don't know what you don't know, right? That's a fact. I also assessed that from that conversation, she often saw my work as under what's the word I'm looking for. She wanted me to often give her more information than I was prepared to because she didn't give me all the information I needed to actually do the job in the first place. So it was a nice little kind of chicken-the-gg conversation. Once you assess the facts, then you negotiate what is needed. I needed more information for her to do my job. She needed the work that she wanted, but she wasn't clear on what it was. And so we kept going back and forth. It was just like kind of again, like I told you all last um episode, it's the show me a rock exercise. Every conversation was just show me a rock. So then, so I've assessed the situation. I negotiated to understand what her needs were versus what mine were. And then I consulted with people who worked with her successfully and said, okay, listen, you obviously are doing this better than me. I am the I am the deer she's looking to slaughter every Monday. What do I do differently? And they gave me tips on like, here's how you deal with her. No, you're all she's always gonna be in a bad mood. Don't expect anything different. Don't be happy, chipper, or glass. She don't care about you. What she cares about is the work. So get ahead of her. Give her something to review. She's going to red line it all, but just do what she asks. So there was a level of both pre-emptiveness that I needed to have, but also compliance in order to survive the sentence of working for this leader. Once I negotiated, once I assessed the situation, I negotiated my names versus hers. I consulted with her others, then I observed her behavior. I observed her behavior with others, I observed how she did work, I observed, and then I tried to figure out what I can get from her from a learning perspective. Because she wasn't stupid. She was just irritating and mean. Could I avail myself of all of the emotional attacks that I felt? People like, look, I'm here, you can't fire me. I'm doing a good job, but I can learn from you. Right. It wasn't easy. But I took on the four agreements of like, don't be offended, right? Once I figured that out, I observed a couple of different things. One is she's all over the place. She had a huge job. And, you know, what's crazy is she she didn't come into work till like two o'clock. After like, you never heard from her till like noon or two, and most of us left at five. So at six, she's blowing up your phone trying to find you because she wants work when most of us have been work since, you know, seven, eight o'clock. So that was the first thing. So I knew that by the end of the day, I need the later to try to check in with her before I left so I could create a boundary. Right? I observed that. I also then had to heed my trigger. So I assessed the situation. A, I negotiated my needs and hers, and I consulted with others. I then, oh, I forgot. I had to heed my triggers. My trigger was her. How do I say this? My trigger with this young lady was her, her tone. Her tone was just very aggressive, very abrasive, very, I don't understand what you did. Why did you do it this way? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, and it frazzled me. It frazzled me because I felt like I was always on my heels with the conversation. I always felt I was on my heels. To the extent you can, if you guys use Teams or whatever, record your conversations, have the AI analyze it. Uh, back in 2005, six, I didn't have that. But now that you do, go ahead and do that. Go ahead and analyze your conversation and figure out the patterns of the kinds of questions. Have the AI, have chat, have quad, have whoever you want, analyze this leader, what's important to them. Because if you can find out that, you can start to navigate and prepare ahead of time. It will change your life, I promise you. But I was triggered by how many questions she asked that I felt like I was unprepared for because she would ask beyond the assignment she gave me. And also, she expected me to know things that only she would know. So I then began to anticipate her questions in ways that helped me mitigate the stress of it. It didn't take it all the way down. And it didn't make me feel any better. She was, she was literally never nice to me up until I left, right? But I was able to manage it better. So once I heated my triggers, I observed her pattern, and then I resolved like, hey, this is the quarantine I'm gonna give myself. This is the prop process I'm gonna give myself. And when it's done, it's done. She's still gonna red line it. It's never gonna be perfect for her. Don't expect it. Give your 80%, let her, you know, you know, line it up and then finish. And that helped me realize how to navigate someone who is just a mal like a malcontent. She was just a miserable, miserable, grumpy person. Right? And so use your anchor, assess the situation, negotiate your needs and theirs. What are they asking for? What do you need? How do you consult with people around you to get observations to figure out what they do and how they work better with the person? Observe, heed your triggers. Heed your triggers. What triggers you? What sets you off? Is it the tone? Is it the questions? Is it the meanness? Is it, is it in public settings where they're coming at you? What is it? Prepare for that because once you observe their patterns, you understand your triggers. You can then plan for it and resolve on how you want to do this, right? How you want to move forward.

Calm Clapback Questions That Work

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Another thing I'm going to recommend for you is to come up with some clapback questions. So when you know this leader is going to, you know, either say something sideways or mean or what have you, be prepared with a list of questions that allow you to regain a level of confidence and let them know, I see what you're doing. I'm going to ask you why you're doing it and make you aware that I know that you're doing it. So, for example, if the person says, This is exactly the kind of sloppy work I expect from you.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Okay. So I'm getting a sense that you're not happy with my work. That's the first response. I get the sense that you're not happy. Can you be specific about what's not here? What am I missing? Point to it. And then if they come back with, well, you should know this. Well, obviously I don't, and we're here now. I'd like for you to give me some direction as my manager. I shouldn't have to tell you this. You might not have to. You shouldn't, but that may be true. But now I'm asking you as my manager to give me direction. I believe that's what needs to happen now so that we can both get what we want. Clap at questions. Don't let the stress of what they're doing make you feel bad about who you are. Right? If for some reason they, you know, you know, hey, when we were in the meeting and you said that I never know what I'm talking about, or when you were in the meeting and you cut me off in the middle of my sentence, it made me feel like you were not respecting what I had to say. Is that your intent? So what happened? The the the fact was you cut me off in the meeting. The second thing is you made me feel like you didn't respect what I had to say. Three, I'm asking you if that's what you intended. Why? Because most people will back down when they hear that their intention is sideways. Right. They'll say, like, oh yo, I didn't mean I didn't mean it like that. I that's I don't you're so sensitive. I might be, but how else should I take it? Like, don't let them off the hook. Just and be calm. I can't express this enough. Be calm. If you need to roleplay with somebody at your house, your kid, your mama, your dog, your plants. I don't care. Role play until you feel confident enough to deliver it without your hand shaking, your voice shaking, your palms getting sweaty. Another, you know, thing, like, well, I'm not really sure you're cut out for this role. Okay, I hear that. What makes you say that? What specifically about my performance? What specifically about my competency? What competencies do you think I'm missing? Make them articulate it. Don't let anybody just lob over these random things that they that, you know, and make them say it out loud. Make them say it out loud.

Document, Report, And Watch Retaliation

SPEAKER_00 42:19

And I would say this last thing I'll say about specifically about this, is do what you can to document consistently time, place, voice, who was in the room, all of the things. Because that will give you a one, an idea of the patterns, but also enough information to go to HR. Because if you look at your handbooks, if you look at your company policies, more often than not, there is a bullying policy. There is some kind of harassment policy that you can then turn to. Even the company values, if the company has a level of values, you can say, hey, listen, over the past three months, you know, Julie's been acting like this. I have it documented. And make sure you don't document it on your work computer, please. Document it at home or somewhere else so that, you know, should you ever have to leave abruptly, you still have all your stuff. Julie's been acting like this for the first these three months. And talk to Julie. Make sure you talk to Julie before you go to HR. When I talked to her, she said, X, Y, Z, P DQ, I'm coming to you now because I believe it's a violation of company policy A, B, and C, and our code of conduct and our company values. Start there. Now, let's be clear. When you do this, the situation will get extremely volatile. And I do mean extremely volatile. HR, if there's enough information, we'll do an investigation. If your HR team is worth their salt, they will try to do so in a way that is discreet. They will try To cooperate what you've said, they'll call in other people. However, more often than not, you will show your hand because the people will need to talk to your leader. And from there, it could get worse. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but I need you to be very sober about what you're doing. I would also say to the extent it's necessary, seek counsel. Call the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Figure out some other avenues so that you can have all the information out to the places that you need to protect yourself. If you report to HR and your manager's behavior gets worse, that is called retaliation. Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. That's worse than anything else. Continue to document, continue to show up, continue share it. Now listen, last episode I told you. If you're not doing your job, I can't really help you. No. You should not be bullied at work whether you're doing your job or not. Let me be very clear. No one should create psychological harm on you ever. You're never you no one ever deserves that. There's no such thing as that. So I need to be very clear. But when you're doing your job, you make it easier to defend. So make sure you're on time, make sure you're doing what you need to do, following the rules, all the things required for you to keep employment gamefully without being terminated for cause. And continue to document because once you go to HR, it could get worse, and you can then show, like, hey, I believe my manager's retaliating on me. Again, I will tell you to weigh your options, remember your why, because if you don't, this will get messy and sloppy and emotional, and you won't be able to think clearly. It'll cause you even more stress. I remember uh right after I had my son, I was going back to a job, and the leader was just he was a pill and not a bully, but a pill. And I was, I was, you know, we had an engagement that was less than stellar. I was fully ready to go to, you know, get legal effort. And my husband's like, look, no, you're pregnant, don't worry about it. We can just, we're not worth it. This is not worth it. I will tell you that when you go against organizations, the legal battles are long and arduous and drawn out. I'm not saying that they're not worth it, but seek counsel, make sure you're clear about what you want, make sure about make sure you're clear about what you're willing to risk as well. Because it's the risk of both your time, your energy, your employment, all of those things, and you can't get it back. Because many of us wanna be right. And sometimes the right thing to do is just walk away. Listen, and I know plenty of people who have won cases against companies. So, you know, let's be clear. It can be done. And you just gotta be very clear and sober about what you're trying to do.

Closing Tips, Song Pick, And Resources

SPEAKER_00 47:07

All right, so that's all the time we have for today. This episode went a lot longer than I expected, but I hope you've enjoyed it. One more tip for you. I I'm starting to look for music that aligns with what we're doing. And then in the last episode, I gave you one. This episode, there is a um a band called Meat Raffle. And they have a song, it's a Slizing song, but it's funny, called uh Bully Boss. And the lyrics are are hilarious. It's you're so sad and you and you paid for the office party tab, bully boss. Your dancing is so embarrassing in the way you're trying to sing, bully boss. Right across the trunk country, there are 20,000 people. We'll use that word, bully boss. You know what you remind me of? Yeah, the story of Alexis Stankhanoff. Take your job and stick it where the sun don't shine. Take your job and stick it where the sun don't shine, bully boss. Um, check out that song. I just, and send me more songs, y'all, because I think these are hilarious. These songs about bad leadership. I never knew there were so many. I know that psychologically work songs are are always bad. They're not positive, but this is hilarious. Um, that said, listen, if you're dealing with something, if you're dealing with a bad boss, do what you can to protect your psychological safety. Reach out to all of the helplines and your EAP and phone a friend, whatever you need to do to protect yourself. Um, but if this has helped you, let us know. Reach out to us at infothenatalieparker.com. Info at thenatalieparker.com. We want to hear from you. Go to the website, your bosssucks.com, because we want to hear. Um, we want you to download the companion guide to the bad boss bully archetype. So you'll get that, you'll get the worksheets, work that out, figure out what you need to do. And until next time, don't let your boss set the life out of you.