Breaking Down Defensiveness: Real Talk on Communication in Business with Lisa Merlo-Booth

In this episode, I sat down with my longtime client and communication powerhouse, Lisa Merlo Booth, to talk about the sticky (but super important) stuff: defensiveness in business communication.

Lisa is a relationship coach, speaker, and full-on paradigm shifter who's on a mission to transform how we show up in relationships—romantic, professional, and everything in between. This convo was juicy, real, and full of “aha” moments. You’ll hear:

• Why defensiveness is rampant in professional settings (yes, even yours)
• The three defensiveness archetypes and how they show up at work
• What it actually means to “speak it clean” and why it changes everything
• How to lead your team with grounded, powerful strength (without being a jerk)
• What to do when you are the defensive one (hi, me 🙋‍♀️)
• Why humane kindness and accountability are non-negotiables in a thriving business culture

Lisa also talks about her wildly impactful live course on defensiveness (which I highly recommend—it's changed the way I show up in my biz and my life).

If you’ve ever felt triggered by feedback, shut down in tense convos, or struggled to hold boundaries with clients, this one’s for you.

Lisa isn’t your typical relationship coach. With over 20 years of experience as a relationship coach and trained therapist, she cuts through the fluff and gets straight to the heart of the matter. Lisa tackles complex issues head-on with clarity, humor, and a no-nonsense approach that drives real, lasting change.

Her mission is to help individuals, couples, teams, and organizations create radically new relationships and cultures that don’t just survive—they thrive.

The old relationship rules are broken, and Lisa is here to rewrite them. Through her Radically New Relationships™ Paradigm, she challenges outdated norms and replaces them with a bold, transformative framework. Her approach ensures relationships are deeply supportive, powerfully connected, and built to last.

Links:

https://www.facebook.com/LisaMerloBoothStraightTalk

https://www.instagram.com/lisamerlobooth

www.lisamerlobooth.com

Offer: It's Not Me It's You, Tackling Defensiveness 6-week course starts Tuesday, May 13th.

Learn more about BizMagic or the BizMagic Podcast.

Transcript

Patti: Welcome back to another episode of the Biz Magic Podcast, your place for all things tech in your online business with solids. So General Biz Chat two. My name is Patty Meyer and I am the CEO and founder of Biz Magic, where my team and I support entrepreneurs who are overwhelmed by the backend tech of their business.

We create, implement, and teach the tweaks that help our clients make a bigger impact with less stress.

Today we are diving into something that. I don't feel like a lot of people or enough people talk about, uh, when it comes to business, something that is kind of some sticky stuff and that's defensiveness to communication breakdowns and what it really takes to show up as a grounded, effective leader in your business.

And to talk about that today with me is Lisa Merlo Booth, who is a relationship expert, speaker coach, and fierce advocate for creating a new paradigm of communication, rooted in responsibility and kindness. Lisa today will share why defensiveness is so common, especially in high stress work environments, how to recognize it in yourself and others, and what to do instead.

And how we can make these changes on a larger scale in the world around us. Lisa isn't your typical relationship coach. With over 20 years of experience as a relationship coach and trained therapist, she cuts through the fluff and gets straight to the heart of the matter. Lisa tackles complex issues head on with clarity, humor, and no nonsense approach.

That drives real lasting change. Her mission is to help individuals, couples, teams, and organizations create radically new relationships and cultures that don't just survive, they thrive. Old relationship rules are broken, and Lisa is here to rewrite them. Through her radically new relationships paradigm, she challenges outdated norms and replaces them with a bold, transformative framework.

Her approach ensures relationships are deeply supportive, powerfully connected, and built to last. If you've ever felt triggered by feedback, struggled to give hard truths without drama, or wished your team dynamics felt a little less like a minefield. This episode is for you. Let's dive in. Thank you so much for being here, Lisa.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to have you. So, um, right before I hit record, we were just looking at, you have been a client of mine for seven years, which is really amazing. Yes. And I, you've been doing your defensiveness course for the last I. Three years or so. Yeah, I would say probably three.

Yeah. And one of the things I get to do working with you is sit in on the defensiveness course, which we'll talk about a little bit later in the episode. But, um, I get to sit in on the live calls each round it has. Literally changed my life because I have, I didn't realize I was a defensive person.

Sometimes in relationships, I've just learned so much about myself and taking accountability for myself and how to recognize certain things in myself and just my, the way that I communicate with people has changed so drastically. So I'm so excited to have you here to talk about it. Because communication and defensiveness and all of this goes so much deeper and, and further than just romantic relationships.

And I think people don't talk about that enough. So, um, so I'd love for you to first just sort of tell us a little bit about you and what you do in your own words.

Lisa: Gosh, great question. I just wanted to say, it's so interesting when you say that about the defensiveness. Somebody else was saying this, I didn't think I was defensive and it has like, so changed my life.

Um, like that just touches my heart. I just wanna, you know, say that. Um, so who am I? Uh, I am originally a trained therapist and then I shifted from therapy to, um. To coaching, which was an interesting journey because I was working with, um, homeless families, uh, and just a lot of intensity. They were involved with DSS, department of Social Services and I remember being on, on vacation one day and one of my clients called and she was suicidal, and I just got off the phone and I was like, Hmm, I don't wanna hold this anymore.

And so I shifted to. Relationship coaching, which has been so freeing, like, it's just been a wonderful, wonderful, amazing shift, um, that I'm so glad that I did. So I'm doing relationship coaching, um, and really I say, uh, you know, my mission, I'm on a mission to change, uh, the relationship paradigm that our world is run on.

And so I. What I really call myself is a relationship paradigm shifter, because that's where my heart and soul is. I think that, you know, God, do we need it, um, in so many, in marriages with friendships, with in businesses like our leadership in our world, everywhere. Um, um, so I'm on a mission to change, you know, to change the paradigm we've all been taught that is so antiquated and is.

Really costing us a lot. A lot. Yeah.

Patti: I love that. And that's one of the reasons I love working with you is, um, because you are somebody who is actively doing good in this world, in a really powerful way, in a way that I. So many people struggle with when it comes to communicating. And, um, so talk a, can you talk a little bit about what that means as a paradigm shifter in that capacity?

Like, what are you seeing and what are you wanting to change?

Lisa: So, you know, gosh, what I'm seeing is a lot of what I grew up with, right? And, um, so. Really strict gender straight jackets. We're going back to that. Like we want, you know, and, and even, uh. Ugh. A disgustingly like intense doubling down on masculinity.

And we want tough men and we want, you know, so it's like a power over gender docile women. Um, a lot of normalizing of blowing up and. You know, everybody gets mad and everybody blows up, and if somebody, you know, hurts your feelings, then you have the right to annihilate them, and that's all. Okay. Like, it's just, yeah.

Such an antiquated, um, paradigm that I have seen for years wreak havoc on men and boys and women and families and it, it's just. It's sickening me that we're going back to that because it's so toxic to, we talk a lot about the toxicity to women, but it's super to toxic to men as well.

Yeah.

Lisa: Only men aren't allowed to talk about it, so they talk about it to me behind closed doors when we're in, when I'm doing, you know, couples work with them, but they're not telling their friends and they're, they're not over here.

And I'm like, we have to change this paradigm. It, it's killing us. And for, for boys, you know, from a young age, suck it up. Don't be a crybaby. You're five years old. Don't be a crybaby. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I just, anyway, um, so it's really about shaking up what so many people have been taught in churches and in religions and in like that whole community, you know.

It's harmful. I'm all like, I totally have faith. I, and when you are, um, just doubling down on, you know, men need to be the head of the household and women need to stay home and do this. First off, we're in a different world right now. Many families can't afford to have a single working parent. So now whether it's through your church or it's through, you know, um, your family that's pressuring you, the men have to bring home the bacon, whatever that is.

So now. They can't afford to make a living, so we're gonna shame the, the men because they can't carry their entire family in a new world with extraordinarily higher prices and rents. And is is, uh, such an injustice we are doing to humanity across the board. Yeah. And so I like, I wanna shake that up. I wanna stop like, and then we have like, you know, in.

In government and in politics, like the divisiveness is so extreme and so big that people are just shaming each other and and attacking each other and we're making that okay. And normal one, it's not okay. And two, it's not normal. And three, it's harming everybody. I don't care what side of the aisle you on, it's harming humanity.

Yeah. And it like that whole stuff. Has been so toxic on so many levels and that's what I like. That's the paradigm I wanna shift. Yeah, I love

Patti: that. And um, and you talk about so much when it comes to families and the way that communication in these relationships sort of play out in, in those areas, but.

Right. There's so much of that that's also happening in business and communication. So let's talk a little bit about, um, how you see a, a communication, especially with this type of paradigm happening in business, whether it's as entrepreneurs working with clients and contractors, or in corporate settings, or just, you know, when you're looking at, when we talk about business, what does this.

Kind of old style of communication, defensiveness, all of these sorts of ideas, how do they play into that? So, um,

Lisa: one, the old school. Where you have a boss who is angry 'cause you made a mistake and they're like blowing up at you, or you're in a team and somebody on the team is undermining you in the middle of the, you know, the team meeting, but nobody's saying anything.

All these, what happens is when you have all that toxic communication happening, or, and, and you justify it because of hierarchy or because of gender or you because of position or whatever. You create an unsafe environment, and if you have an unsafe environment in business, well what happens? One, you lose loyalty.

Your employees, they don't wanna give you the best, they just wanna get their paycheck. Well, there's a tremendous difference in the bottom line between having employees who love working for you and are loyal to you because they wanna. Really join together to help this business succeed versus those are like, oh, he's a son of a bitch.

I don't really care, but I need a paycheck. And so I'm not giving this person my best work. I'm any sick days I can have, I'm taking 'em if I, you know, I'll kind of do the bare minimum that I have to in order to get the box checked, but I'm looking elsewhere because this. Culture is unsafe. It's like I don't trust that my boss is gonna take care of me.

I don't trust the employees. I, it is just a, it's just an unsafe yuck culture. Yeah. So, yeah, so if you don't have clean communication, you don't have a, a healthy environment where it's, you know, I kind of talk about, you know, and I do work with teams, radically new cultures. Um, where you have uncompromising safety, you have genuine equality, you have courageous accountability, you have humane kindness, right?

And you have reciprocity. You don't have those five pillars in a, in a business culture. Then that business culture is not running on its best kind of legs, so to speak, and that's a problem that's gonna hurt the bottom line.

Patti: Yeah, absolutely. And I think not only does it hurt the bottom line, but it hurts, right?

The, um, longevity of people that you work with, whether it's clients, whether it's the team that you have, um, again, be it, be it employees or contractors or anything like that because you need to create an environment that's healthy in order for people to wanna be there and for you to be successful.

'cause eventually that toxicity just leaks into everything, everything.

Lisa: Yeah. And then you have mental health issues, and you have anxiety, and you have Right. And, and all that hurts. And even with like, you know, entrepreneurs, um, with your customers.

Yeah.

Lisa: Right? Like if your customers are treating you rudely all the time and you're thinking, oh, I can't lose them.

I can't lose them, I'll just, I'm just gonna have to take it. Well, the hit of that, not only to you, but to your company and your customer, they start losing more and more respect for you because if you don't even respect you, why should they? Yeah. And so it's like this domino effect that really, it is incredibly impactful.

Patti: Yeah, I learned that it took me a bit in my business, you know, early on I worked with whoever would wanna give me money and, and all of that, right? And I slowly sort of built to this place where I realized that I deserved to be respected and. I was no longer. And, and I think which is, which was really interesting for me, is it when I brought in subcontractors because then I was mama bear about them.

And like, you can't talk to my people that way. It doesn't matter how you talk to me. Yes. But you could, you know, and so I would fire clients and be like, no, you were condescending in a jerk to this person. Like, no, that's not okay. And then over time, saw that that was also what I was allowing for myself in some ways.

And so now I'm very. Nitpicky about who I work with because mm-hmm. I only wanna work with people who are going to respect me, but it takes time to sort of get there, um, and not let people talk to me in different ways and treat me in ways that, you know, and I have that in my contract. That's built into my contracts.

Now. If you treat my team or me in an unsavory manner, we will terminate your contract immediately.

Lisa: Oh, I love that. That's a great, that is so awesome. Um. Everybody who's listening to this, if you're an entrepreneur, do that. Put that in your contract. Like, like, it's so great because what you're doing is you're like, listen, I am painting the box and here's what you need to do.

You need to know upfront. I'm telling you how I work. I'm telling you I will treat you this way and you need to treat me the same. It's funny your, your statement about, oh my gosh, I was a mama bear for others. I can't tell you how common that is. Mm-hmm. Like, and, and particularly with women, right? Women will, oh my gosh.

They will be super protective of their children and their friends and, and they'll stand up for their coworkers, but for themselves, they'll take the hit and take the hit and take the hit and take the hit. And we have to get out of that. We have to like. Listen, it's about humanity. Like I will, I'm not asking for anything more than I'm giving.

I will treat you with respect and bottom line. I demand respect on this. On the same level. Yeah. Or we don't get to play. Yeah. I don't wanna play. Yeah. You know?

Patti: And how do you, how do you talk to people when it comes to that? Like to, to help guide them to a place where they're able to. Learn how to demand their respect and how do they, and, and, and, right.

This kind of goes to that communication piece. How do you communicate that? You know, for me, in order for me to do it was I had to put it in writing and I had to have it in there because it's uncomfortable for me to say, you know, like at that point to just verbally be like, you have to respect me. You know, so, you know, how, how do we communicate these boundaries that we create and, and use our, our voice and, and our communication to create healthy.

Environments in our businesses and work.

Lisa: So, um, part of that is knowing that the only person you have control over is you, right? So I, I have no control over you. There's nothing I can do with you. I can't stop you from yelling and screaming at me. However, I have a hundred percent control over whether I stand there and continue to listen to it.

Right,

Lisa: right. So, um, and when we're communicating, what I talk about is GPS Grounded powerful strength. The core component in a grounded, powerful strength is compassion. You have enough compassion for yourself to stand up for you when you need to, while also having compassion for the humanity of the person on the other side of you in how you.

Stand up, right? So if you are stepping on my back, so to speak, I will stand up for me without squashing your back, right? Like the poor behavior, somebody else is not a green light for my own. And so it's really on your end. Make sure that you make sure that. You are speaking, you're speaking it clean.

That's what I say. So you gotta speak it clean, clean energy, right? With respect. Be clear, here's what I'm gonna do. And then you figure out what they're gonna do. Right? I can, I can say, you can't speak to me like that, but if they keep speaking to me like that, now I have to go to, okay, what do I need to do?

Do I need, is this just a one-off, a one-off conversation? And I'm just gonna end this conversation and say, look, I'm gonna. Let's cool off. I'm gonna take a break and we'll come back. Or is this many conversations and as you know, this person's manager or boss, I need to write them up. Do I need to put them on a pro?

What do I need to do?

Yeah.

Lisa: And then. What they do with that, they do with that, right? If I have to eventually like let them go because they're not, they're just not, you know, showing up relationally, then I'm gonna let them go. But the other thing about this and this thing, one of my biggest pet peeves in business is especially like corporate or something.

Or even small businesses when you have team meetings and you have like somebody in the team speaking really disrespectfully or you know, somebody comes up with an idea and they're like, oh, please, that's so dumb. Can we move over here? If the leader on that team doesn't address that right, then that's a problem.

Because what you're doing is you are, you are giving everybody on that team the message that it's okay to speak like that,

right?

Lisa: And what corporate America does, and larger teams often, they're like, well, I'll address it outside of the meeting. Well, that's a problem, right? Because if my colleague just spoke to me like that and you didn't say anything.

In the meeting right now, you're gonna go speak to them behind, like you know alone. You're gonna protect them so you don't embarrass them. That's a problem for me. If they do it in front of me and they do it in front of the team, it gets dealt with in front of the team.

Right, and

Lisa: you, again, you deal with that cleanly, respectfully, grounded, powerful strength, but very clearly, whoa, hold on.

That is not how we speak to each other on this team. Yeah, Tom, change it. Say that again in a different way. Like, we have to do that and in our world, whether it's ENT, entrepreneurs with their customers or with their employees, or, you know, corporate America. We have this fear of doing it in the moment and it's like, well, I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna embarrass 'em.

I don't wanna call 'em that. I'm like, oh my God. That's what's creating a lot of problems in our world today, where people are just going off. Yeah. And so communication as much as possible, do it in the moment cleanly on your end. That's what you gotta do.

Patti: Yeah. And that was, uh, one of the things that I really learned from sitting in a lot of the sessions with you is that speak it clean and that, that sentence, those few words, stick in my brain so that when, and this really comes in for me when I'm feeling defensive, and that can come in any moment with anybody, right?

It doesn't matter what their relation to me is. I'll have a client who might. Ask for something in a certain way and because maybe it hurt my feelings or I feel, or I feel embarrassed that he did something wrong or I feel maybe disrespected or whatever the case may be. And my, I am a, I have a lot of, uh, walls.

I'm a big throw up a wall and become aloof. That's my. Yeah, the way that I function, so therefore I get, well, you know, like I get very defensive in that way. And so for me that's always where I come from now is before I ever say anything to anybody, I think speak it clean. And so I really stop and try to think about am I responding to this situation in a way that is.

Clean, which means for me and the way that I understand it, to be a way that is only my interpretation of it, saying, this is how I am perceiving this, this is how I'm experiencing this, and this is how I'm feeling about this. Yeah. And it's not coming and saying, you did this thing and you said this thing and you hurt my, well, you can't hurt anything.

I can feel a certain way and react a certain way. Yeah. But that's the part of it. For me, that has changed so much of the way that I relate to people, because I'm able to stop and go, is this clean? Is what I'm saying? Clean? And if not, then I need to not say anything until I figure out how to make it clean for me, because I don't want that

Lisa: icky sticking point.

Right. And there's nothing, you can't say cleanly and you can say some really hard things, like you can, you know, you can end a friendship cleanly, you can end a marriage cleanly. You can, like, there's so many things and we have to get, you know, get back to, or whatever, find our way to like basic humanity.

Yeah. Humane kindness. Right. Like you don't get to just be brutal to people. There's this whole thing, it used to be like, oh, I don't wanna be political, I gotta be political, you know, politically kind or whatever. No, it's called about, it's about humanity.

Yeah.

Lisa: Right. It's about humanity. You don't get to just blow up and, and call people names or call them stupid or the what.

Patti: Yeah. Right. How did politically correct and kindness become like,

Lisa: like, what happened? What happened there? Like we just totally lost our way. And that hurts business. Yeah. That hurts your bottom line. Your business is not, if, if every time you're mad at a customer or you think the customer's stupid, you just say you're stupid.

Right. Guess what? They're gonna take their money and run. Mm-hmm. Like, it, it just, yeah. It, it just really, um, shocks me that, that this is what's happening. Yeah.

Patti: Yeah. So what are some of the, the common communication mistakes that you see in professional settings, um, and how can people overcome them? I know you talk a bit about the pillars and that speaking it clean.

Are there anything, any other ways that you see kind of mistakes within communication, um, inside of business and professional relationships?

Lisa: So one is, you know, like I said, speak it in the moment. Address bad behavior. Harmful, harmful behavior. When it's happening, don't pull somebody aside. That's so big.

The other thing like, you know, we talk a lot about how to give people feedback in business, right? You know, sometimes, like say a positive and then give the constructive feedback and then, you know, follow it up with a positive, like the sandwich. Um, what we don't pay attention enough to is the receiver.

How to respond, how to receive feedback, right? Mm-hmm. So in business, what, what I would say, and this is like the defensiveness, this was, is what kind of brought me into that defensiveness, you know? Realm, I guess, because everywhere I'm looking, I'm like, oh my gosh, the whole world is defensive. Yeah, everybody, its, it's remarkable actually.

Oh my, when you start noticing it, holy cow, right? When you see it, you cannot unsee it, right? Yeah. I mean, it was like, oh my gosh, our world needs this. And so, um, with business. There's a first off when somebody is giving you feedback, whether it's your boss who's saying, Hey, you know, I want you to tighten up how you're writing.

You know, I want you to go back and I, you gotta be checking grammar. Or it's your colleague who's saying, listen, this is the third time you've been a day late with handing in your part of the project, or whatever it is. Right? Um. You have to slow down that knee jerk response to protect yourself. What do you mean?

I didn't, well, you didn't tell me until 24 hours before. Of course, I handed in late. Or wait, I have like two, two grammatical errors. Like really? This is good writing. Stop. Stop. Right? And so pause it. What you have to, if. You could really start to view feedback as a gift instead of an attack.

Yeah,

Lisa: that's gonna be life changing for e every business.

I don't care what your role is, whether you own the company or you work for a company, it doesn't matter. And let me tell you why it's gift. One is it tells you that you're important enough for them to take the time to tell you. Because when I give up on somebody and I don't think that they're competent or they're gonna be able to do it, I don't, I don't waste my breath.

Like they don't have the skills. I'm just not gonna tell them I'm gonna ha right. But when they pause and they say, Hey listen, let's talk for a moment. Here's what I'm seeing. You better be thinking, oh, thank goodness. Like I'm important enough for them to like do this. The other thing is I. It's operating instructions.

They are literally telling you, you, Hey, if you do this, this is gonna help you and help me and help our company. Why wouldn't you want that? Right? And if you wanna, if you want a promotion, you damn well better be listening to those operating instructions if you are too emotionally fragile to hear that you are going to stunt your growth.

Yeah. So that's the first thing I would say. There's just a little tip. Start playing with feedback is a gift. It's not an attack, and I am strong enough to take it in and hear it. It's not about me sucking. I'm not a bad person. I'm not terrible. It's really just, here's the gift.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. The first time I heard you, uh, describe feedback as operating instructions, that also to me was similar to like the speaking at Clean.

That was one that also stuck, stuck with me because it's true, and it's like somebody's literally telling you how they want it and what they need. Why would you not hear that?

Right?

Patti: And if you're not hearing it, it's because you're so caught up in yourself and your ego and your feelings and all of these things that you're not hearing it.

Right.

Lisa: And even in your personal relationship. Mm-hmm. Right? What they're doing is they're saying, I love you. I want us to get closer. Here's how I can feel closer to you. Yeah. Why wouldn't you want that?

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. Um, so, so kind of what we're talking more about here is that defensiveness side of things.

So. In what other ways, um, do you see defensiveness showing up in business outside of what we've already discussed and, and what are some ways that we can kind of mitigate that?

Lisa: So I'm gonna throw like, you know, defensiveness kind of into three big baskets, right? I kind of call 'em the defensiveness archetypes.

So they're just kind of easier. They're nine faces to defensiveness, but let's just throw 'em into three baskets. One of the baskets are, um, the peacemakers. So the peacemakers, the way that you peacemakers kind of defend is, it's what you were saying, Patty, earlier. You wall off, right? Yeah. Yeah. So peacemakers kind of, they shut down, they silence, or they'll collapse and they'll be like, oh my God, I'm so stressed.

Uh, why are you telling me this right now? You know, I can't handle this. I just can't have this conversation. And so they do that, right? Um. Or, you know, in business, like, oh my God, I've been trying so hard. You're not noticing how hard I'm trying. Mm. Right. And then the other person starts feeling guilty.

They're like, oh, forget it. I'll just, I'll back off. I'm gonna, you know, whatever. The, the second basket are the storytellers and the storytellers. They're constantly explaining, well, this is why I did that. The reason why I was a day late was because, you know, I thought I wanted to make sure it was really, really good.

And so I just put extra work in it. Did you notice how great the work was when I did turn it in? Right. And so the storytellers are about like, I'm a good person. I'm a good person. My intentions are great. You have to know that. And then the last ones are the CEOs. And the CEOs are, they're like. They minimize, right?

They can minimize or they're gonna argue facts. So minimizing is like. Is it really that big of a deal? We need to get this project out now. And I think, you know, we can't get it perfect. I think you're making too big a deal out of this. Let's just do it. And so they just kind of dismiss you and, and minimize it, or they're gonna argue with you.

They're gonna argue the facts. That's not what you said. That's not how it happened. That's not da da da. And, and so you just feel like, oh my gosh. And so. If in business you wanna start slowing down and paying attention if somebody's. Saying something to you, giving you feedback. You gotta, am I explaining, am I shutting down?

Am I like minimizing this impact because I can't handle it? Right? Or you wanna watch others. You wanna watch, like when you're giving them feedback, especially like, you know, if you own the company, you're hiring people or you're a manager, you wanna be thinking, okay, can this person handle. Feedback. Mm-hmm.

How do they take it in? If every time I tell them something, they keep telling me why they did it or they keep it, you know, like telling me it's not that big of a deal or they're throwing somebody else under the bus, this person's not gonna grow. Right. And do I wanna hire somebody that's not gonna grow?

Right.

Lisa: That's gonna keep my company stagnant. And so if you notice that with any employees, you have to have a conversation with them about this particular edge. You've gotta talk to them about this defensiveness, because it's stunting their growth, and you are not gonna get what you need out of them.

Right? And vice versa. If it's about you, you're stunting your growth and you are not gonna get, you're not gonna reach your potential because you just, you won't allow yourself to, to learn.

Patti: Right. Yeah. And that's what I was gonna ask next too is, you know, what do you do when you're in sort of, because sometimes you've gotten to a point where you know, or let's say, right, you hired people before you heard this episode, and now you have people on your team who are defensive and you're dealing with some people who are defensive and we're not saying, oh, go fire that person because they're defensive, or fire that client, or you, you know, like, so how do you.

Navigate dealing with other people who are defensive around you in your working world, because that's huge, right? Because that's a big part of it is we can't, that's one of the first things you said is you can't change how somebody else is going to be, you can't dictate what somebody else is gonna be like.

So how do we then take that responsibility for ourselves and navigate that?

Lisa: Yeah. So, um. As a leader or an owner or Right. Um, you, this is gonna be some, this is gonna be part of what you're mentoring them around. And where I see leaders struggle with this is they're not straight shooters. You have to have, you gotta have a straight conversation.

Grounded, powerful strength. Hey, and you can lead with a gift. So, hey, I wanna have a conversation with you. Here's I. I'm happy with so much of the work you're doing. You're doing great. And here's one area that I'm noticing that you're struggling with that I want us to be working on. I want you to focus on and then you, and you talk to them and instead of saying defensive, you say, you know, often when I'm giving you feedback, the first thing I see you do is you start explaining why you do that.

And I want you to pause and not do that. I want you to take in what I'm doing, what I'm saying, and like just give them instructions. Then every time they're able to do what you are trying to teach them to do, be like, Hey, nice job taking that feedback in. I just want you to know I noticed it.

Nice

Lisa: work, right?

So anything you wanna see more of? Draw attention to anything you wanna see less of and that you need them to work on. Be honest with them and don't do it wishy-washy. Hey, I just, you know, I don't wanna like, you know, make you feel uncomfortable or anything. And, and it's not really that big of a deal.

Like, don't do that. Guilty, guilty, don't do that. Don't do that. Right. This is just matter of fact. And it's because like, go into it with the idea that. This feedback is a gift. I'm gonna give them the opportunity to grow and if they take it, great. Good for them. Yeah. And if they don't, I'm not gonna feel bad because they're making themselves small because of it.

Patti: Yeah. I remember there was, this is probably, I. A year or two ago at this point, there was something, and we talked about right, how I get Mama Bear sometimes with, with my team. And there was something that happened where I was being a bit defensive with you, um, over one of my team members or something. And, and you, it was a really beautiful thing, is you started this conversation by saying, Hey.

So I'm gonna share something with you and I would love for you to just sort of take a moment and, you know, like you really opened it in a very, um, comfortable way for me. So that first I kinda was like, oh shit, you know, like I thinking off like I did something wrong, but then you were like, I just want to, to share that.

This is what I noticed. And then you said. Are you feeling this way? Because this is what I'm noticing. Sure. And it was this really lovely way that allowed me and invited me to pay attention to how I was speaking and how I was showing up. And that when I was able to then sort of say, okay, put my little wall down.

Oh, actually, you know what? I am being defensive. Thank you for drawing my attention to that. And it was therefore something I was more aware of moving forward of. Okay, well maybe let's not react first and let's not get my feelings involved first. And so I think that that was a really great example of you sort of somebody stepping into that role and saying, Hey, I'm seeing this and I wanna have a clean interaction with you.

And you could have just been like, well, I'm not gonna talk, talk to her about that anymore, and I'm not gonna do this or you, I'm gonna go get a different person to work with me. But you didn't. You valued the relationship and what we, we do together. And you took the effort to, to have that conversation and it was great.

So I think that's a really great example.

Lisa: It is. And what's so cool about that is for you, like you had the courage to be like. Oh yeah, you're right. And like when we do that, you know, at first it's super uncomfortable, but then if you, if you tune into it, it's like, damn, that felt strong. Yeah, it's

Patti: uncomfortable.

Right?

Lisa: Yeah. I'm growing. Look at me. Good. It really is. It's like, Ooh, hot shit. I did that good for me. Like it really is like, it just, it feels strong, right? Mm-hmm. You, it just feels very like grounded and strong and healthy, you know? Yeah. And. And then it's like it's over. It's like, like, oh, great. Good. We just had that.

Perfect. Oh, that's so I'm, I'm so glad you met me on that, you know?

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a great point too, is like every time I catch myself, when I speak it clean or I'm in something and I feel a moment and I catch myself and I talk myself down and I feel it, and then I have a conversation that feels really successful and really clean to me.

Man, I feel so good and, and we can get addicted to the drama and all of those emotions of the defensiveness and getting in that, like, I, that's just a real thing. But like the high almost that I get from like, doing it clean and doing it like grounded, it makes me feel like a, a real adult. And it makes you feel like, oh shit, it does, like I'm getting you, like I'm doing something and I'm, and I feel very accomplished when I do that.

And. It makes so far in my experience, it does make the other person meet me a bit more at that level, and my conversations tend to be cleaner as a whole because of that. Right. Right.

Lisa: And even if it didn't, that's their stuff. Right. However, often it, it does, that's not why we're doing it, but it does, and you really do.

It does feel like, Ooh, I'm adulting, like this feels so good. You know? Yeah. Um, yeah. It, it's, it's really good. And that's why it's so important for leaders. You have to find the courage to have these direct conversations cleanly without judgment. Without contempt, right? Respectfully. And you have to have them that like, that's the only way that other people are going to.

Kind of rise to the occasion that they're gonna know where you, where what you're thinking, what you're feeling. You have to find the courage to, you can't ask your staff to find the courage to be accountable when you don't have the courage to speak.

Patti: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I love that. So. You know, talking about you kind of going back to wanting to be a, a paradigm shifter and all of that.

What kind of changes, you know, you talked in the beginning about like the changes you would like to see, especially in, in, um, like romantic relationships in the, the political kind of space in that way. But so inside business, how would you. Love to see, um, businesses change when it comes to communication and defensiveness and in, in this sort of paradigm shift as you pave this new way.

Lisa: Yeah, I really would love businesses, um, when they stock, talk about culture, that the core part of culture is about humanity. And we're gonna create a safe culture here. And we are all working together and we are all a team. And although we have different positions in different roles, there's a genuine equality, there's an uncompromising safety.

I don't care who you are, I. Um, I don't care how much money you're making, what level you are, whatever. Um, I have your back. You have mine As a team, we are going to ensure that this is a safe environment for everybody to speak, for everybody to have their ideas. You can have the best ideas, the stupidest ideas doesn't matter.

Like we're throwing everything in and we are honoring this space. We're gonna be inclusive. We go into lunch, like you're not gonna, it's not gonna be like junior high. We're only three. Yeah. Three of the women go to lunch together and they exclude everybody else. It's like we're all like, anybody can come, like, do that.

Um, I would like accountability. Is accountability from the top down. Don't tell me you want to hear my thoughts, but then when I, when you hear my thoughts, you get angry because I dared to call you out. Like it, it's gotta be from the top down. Accountability is there. Um, and humane kindness, like mm-hmm.

Treat each other like, Hey, how was your day? How are your kids? How's your family? Like, I would love to see workplaces be safe. Friendly environments that people like look forward to going to work with. Like, we, like this makes me, this is jazzing me up, right? Like, oh, I love this. I feel safe. We're gonna work together, we're gonna gel.

And there is no bad idea 'cause we're just gonna keep, and, um, I would love to see that happening and that. If leaders and owners could realize when you put humanity first, the bottom line always, always goes up.

Mm-hmm. And

Lisa: right now it's reversed. Or for a lot of companies it's reversed, it's bottom line first, which means you are burning out employees, you are asking for too much.

You're, you know, you're treating them crappy because it's like, no, no, no, like this didn't get met. And like. You gotta reverse it. And if you reverse it, um, I guarantee the the bottom line that you want to happen will happen.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I think that when we think about how much time we spend in our lives at work, the fact that we have so many toxic cultures when it comes to our working environments is such a shame because.

It's such, and that's why like I obviously love working for myself because I get to choose to work with clients like you. We would not, you and I would not be working together for seven years if we didn't find alignment and have a safe working relationship. Right. Right. And the fact that I get to make those choices in my business.

Is huge because this is how I spend most of my life. Right? So wouldn't it be amazing if you didn't have to have your own business in order to create that environment and that culture, but that that was the standard, that it wasn't about everybody being a number and a dollar sign, but actually about them being a human, right?

I mean, that's what this whole golden rule originally was. Idea of like treat people like you wanna be treated. But we don't, there's a lot of that not happening. And so I, I would love also, I think, I love that to see that change sort of in our, in our culture. Yeah.

Lisa: Yeah. Nobody, I, I'm a firm believer, nobody should ever, ever, ever have to work for somebody who treats them as less than looks down at them, who you're nervous around, whether it's sexual harassment, it's anger, it's whatever it is.

Um, and every single leader. Should have a very, very clear line. Not on my watch. Yeah, not on my watch. If you're gonna be one of those people, you think you're so better than everybody. You're going to look down on people. You are gonna, you know, steal people's ideas, you're gonna do all that. Go to another company, but there's no space for you here.

Yeah. And um, that starts from the top down. It's very difficult to create that if you have a leader who doesn't believe that and doesn't walk that walk.

Patti: Yeah. Which, which we're seeing.

Lisa: Which we're seeing in other ways. Yeah. Right. And if you don't honestly get the paycheck while you're looking. Yes. Keep looking.

'cause you deserve better. You deserve better customers. If you're the, if you're the entrepreneur, you deserve better customers. Don't ever, ever, ever allow yourself to be treated as less than 'cause you are not.

Patti: Yeah,

Lisa: absolutely.

Patti: I love that. Um, I. This has been super amazing. Um, what is, because I love tech and that's my jam, as you know, which I know you love tech.

Um, what is

Lisa: tea?

Patti: I'm, I hate

Lisa: tech.

Patti: Um, what is one tool that you actually, that you love, that helps you in your business or that changes things for you in your business?

Lisa: Um, so honestly that's a hard question 'cause the one tool that I use is you, however, I will say, um, a cool tool that I, that I have used a little bit that I like, I'd like to use more.

I think Descrip is fricking so cool. Mm-hmm. I think that is the coolest thing ever. And, um, it allows, like, I am not tech savvy at all, but I can do descrip and, um, and that's really fun and, and kind of cool and very. Um, helpful for videos, et cetera. Yeah. Um, I also have keep, but I don't like, again, I don't do the work on Keap.

I just have it, but it has helped my business, you know, so a CRM program, you know, is Big Keep, is expensive and it does a lot of things, but, um, you know, definitely need that. Yeah. Yeah, I love that.

Patti: So you have, um, a course coming out and something that you do, um, regularly, multiple times a year. Um, and I would love for you to talk a little bit

Lisa: about this.

Yeah. Um, I love this course. Like I, I am usually, I'm not one to say this is a great course and this is really a great course. This is really a great course. It really is. Like, I just think it, it's, I love this course. Um, it's a six week course on defensiveness and, um. Live. And so what I love about the live part is we get people in there and they have to practice having conversations they have to practice.

Um, just recognizing, and some of the, some of the role plays we do are just funny, fun, like they're mm-hmm. You know. We're not having major conversations, it's just getting to know little tricks and little tips and getting the template down. And so some of it is fun. Like one of them is like, you have to on purpose, be defensive.

Yeah. Like under no circumstances can you admit to anything. And that's just such a fun, like, you know, uh, and in this course I have people like. Like it does, like some therapists, I have some, um, entrepreneurs, like owners. I have some who are there for business. Some couples, some individuals. It's such a mishmash.

The only rule is if there are couples, couples cannot be in the same breakout rooms because we want them each to be able to have fun and not have to worry about the dynamic of the marriage while they're, you know, or the relationship. Um, but, and it's really the richness of the course is. Doing the live parts.

So you, you get the modules, you work the module on one week, and then the next week, you know, like, so it'll drop on. I think the course this time is on a Tuesday, so, um, the, the module drops on a Wednesday and then the next Tuesday we work. On, you know, the, the information from that module, but the real richness is the live calls working it.

Yeah. Um, and so that's where the change is happening because people are realizing, oh my gosh, it's not just me. Yeah. Right. And so it makes it lighter and, you know, more fun to practice. And the, the number of ahas in this court, it's just like, it's like, oh my gosh. So it's a very, very powerful course. I, I don't know of any like it, I don't even know that there's a course out there on defensiveness, like, you know, where you're really practicing it.

So if you're struggling with taking in feedback or you have somebody in your life, 'cause it goes both ways. We teach you, you know, how to handle feedback yourself, and also what do you do if people in your life are defensive? How do you handle that? I. It's a powerful, powerful course. I cannot, you know, say enough about it and I don't ever do that, but this one's really good.

Yeah, it's starting

Patti: and like I said, this is the course that I have hung out in to, to do the tech for every time it's run. Um, and it is what I just, and I don't even participate and I just listen in the background and I am changed like it really is. Yeah, it's something so special and the number of people I see also that will come in and, um, they are feeling they're coming in because of somebody else in their life and pretty early on they're like, oh, it's too, they're too me, too, too.

Right. It's pretty phenomenal and I love that it's such a safe space to, to do that. So, um, so I, and just

Lisa: one other point, like there's. Almost equally an equal number of men and women. Yes. And on some of them we've had even more men. So, um, just to, that's also different often, you know, it's like all the women who are doing these course, but this is not.

Patti: It's not, yeah, it's true. And there's, and everybody participates, which I really love. So everybody

Lisa: participates.

Yep.

Patti: We will have it in the show notes information if you're interested. And I often, you have not yet heard me promote something, um, in my podcast, but I also feel like this change needs to happen in our world and whether it's for business, whether it's for personal, um.

I, I highly recommend doing this if at all

Lisa: possible. Aw, you made my heart. That's so sweet.

Patti: True.

Lisa: I'm the first one who's promoted. Go. Sorry. Go ahead.

Patti: I love it. It's true though. It's true. So, um, all, so where can, we'll have it in the show notes, but go ahead and tell people if they wanna work with you either.

'cause you do stuff outside of the defensiveness course. So tell people how they can find you, how they can work with you.

Lisa: I work with couples and individuals, um, on relationship issues, uh, speaking, talking courses, whatever. Um, you can get me. The best way to get me is two ways. One email Lisa merlaBooth@gmail.com and my website, which Patty did, and the new one's going up and it makes my heart sing.

I cannot even tell you. I'm so excited about it, is Lisa Merlo is, uh, what is it? Lisa Merlo booth. Yep. Lisa Marla booth.com. No dots, no dashes. Um. L-I-S-A-M-E-R-L-O-B-O-O-T h.com.

Patti: Love it.

Lisa: Awesome. Thank you

Patti: so much

Lisa: for being here today, Lisa. Thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun.

Patti: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Biz Magic Podcast.

Like most small businesses and podcast, we rely heavily on word of mouth. So if you like what you heard today or in any episode, please share with your friends and colleagues. And rate, subscribe and comment on your favorite podcast platform. Till next time, cheers to your magical biz success.