Project Management AND CRMs - A Powerhouse Pair with Melissa Rich

Today on the Biz Magic Podcast, I’m joined by the amazing Melissa Rich of Virtually Done Systems—workflow queen and systems whisperer for creatives who swear they “just aren’t systems people.” Spoiler: They are. And you are, too.

We’re diving into the behind-the-scenes dream team duo: your CRM and your Project Management tool. If you’ve ever felt like you’re duct-taping your biz together with a handful of random tools and a prayer, this one’s for you.

Here’s what we get into:

• Why you actually need both a CRM and a project management tool (even if it’s just you)
• What roles each tool plays—and why using them interchangeably leads to tech chaos
• Real-world examples of how to integrate them without losing your mind
• Why “just a solopreneur” is not a valid excuse to keep everything in your head
• How to start simple, stay consistent, and avoid the trap of customizing everything before you even use it

Melissa shares her journey from wedding photographer to systems expert, and we nerd out about Zapier automations, messy to-do lists, client onboarding, and why even reminders to "feed the dog" might belong in your workflow.

Let’s break the myth that systems have to be complicated—and start building something that works with your brain instead of against it.

About Melissa:

Melissa Rich is the founder of Virtually Done Systems, a business dedicated to all things systems and workflows for creative small business owners. She's spent the last 16 years behind the camera as a full-time wedding photographer, secretly enjoying all of the behind-the-scenes work more than her time making pictures. Now, Melissa specializes in helping overwhelmed business owners get their lives back by implementing strategized systems, workflows, and automations to take care of the day-to-day tasks that stress them out so they can fall back in love with their businesses, spend less time behind their laptop, and live their damn lives.

Links and Resources:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/virtuallydonesystems 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/virtuallydonesystems

Reclaim your time and create a smooth, professional client experience: https://virtuallydonesystems.myflodesk.com/ultimatecheatsheet

Learn more about BizMagic or the BizMagic Podcast.

Transcript

Patti: Welcome back to another episode of the Biz Magic Podcast, your place for all things tech in your online business with solid. So General Biz Chat two. My name is Patty Meyer and I am the CEO and founder of Biz Magic, where my team and I support entrepreneurs who are overwhelmed by the backend tech of their business.

We create, implement, and teach the tweaks that help our clients make a bigger impact with less stress.

If you ever looked at your CRM and thought. Is this the best that it can do? Or if you've got a project management tool collecting dust because it just felt a little overwhelming, you are gonna love today's episode. I am chatting with systems and workflow specialists. Melissa Rich, who like me, has a gift for helping creative business owners who swear they're not systems.

People realize that they actually can get their shit together with systems and even better. They might even like it. We are diving into the powerhouse combo of CRMs and project management tools. Why you need both, how they work together and what magic can happen when you stop duct taping your business systems together and start building workflows that actually work for you.

Melissa Rich is the founder of Virtually Done Systems, a business dedicated to all things systems and workflows for creative small business owners. She spent the last 16 years behind the camera as a full-time wedding photographer secretly enjoying all of the behind the scenes work more than her time taking pictures.

Now Melissa specializes in helping overwhelmed business owners get their lives back by implementing strategized systems, workflows, and automations to take care of the day-to-day tasks that stress them out so they can fall back in love with their businesses, spend less time behind their laptop and live their damn lives.

And I'm here for that. So let's get into it. All right. Hello Melissa. Thank you so much for joining me. Hello. I am so excited to be here, Patty. Oh my goodness. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Uh, so I would love first for you to just start by telling me a little bit more. I've read a, a bio, I. Of yours, but just tell me a little bit more about you and your business and, and all of that in your own words.

Melissa: Oh my gosh, of course. My mother would tell you to start at the very beginning, and she would like me to tell you that when I was a kid, like three or four years old, I would take like four puzzles and dump them all the pieces into one pile and then sort them out them do them all at once, right? So like, that's my backstory.

If you'll. That's all we need to go. That's, that's it, right? I've always been really good at sorting out a mess and making it into a clean picture, if you will, which I feel like is how people view their systems so often. Um, but no, realistically, I used to, my first job out of college was for like a large healthcare IT company working on their process improvement team, which is where I fell in love with post-it notes and process and change management and improvement and all of those super, super sexy things that small business owners and creatives.

The things that give them hives, right? And so I quit that job to be a wedding photographer, which is where I learned how to run a business and how the creative brain works. Um, my husband likes to say that he trained me to be able to work with anybody because of his A DHD dyslexic brain. I can handle anything after having worked with him for 15 years.

Right? And so like so many other small business owners, when the pandemic hit, it just tore apart our wedding photography business. And so, um, I picked up some VA work on the side to keep things going. And the clients I loved most were those that had me in their systems and in their back end. And so here I am.

My business was born, it's been almost five years now, and I. Love it. It's the perfect mashup of all things super creative, plus super nerdy and logical. If you.

Patti: Yes, I will. That is because Me too. I love that stuff, obviously. Um, you know, if you've paid attention at all to what I've done and everybody who's listening knows, um, I love me some tech.

Mm-hmm. Um, and all the nerdiness. And so I really love, um, what you're doing and, and the system side of it is just so important in our business, but it is the thing that stresses people out the most because it feels so overwhelming and kind of foreign in this way, even though. When you really like get into it, it can be really simplistic and you can really break it down into a much easier, more digestible format.

Um, but in the meantime, it just makes people freak out and get terrified.

Melissa: It really does. Like people, people don't trust it. They don't trust what they don't know, which I completely understand. Right. Understand. Okay. Completely understand that because that's how I felt as I was learning to take photos on a camera, right?

Yeah. It's like, I don't know how to use this piece of tool, this tool, right. To do the things that I want to do, so I'm just gonna have to go with it and trust it and figure it out. It's the reverse in the way for so many creatives. They know their creative piece inside out, upside down could do it in their sleep, but it's the tech and the systems and the foreign pieces that are just Yeah.

Hard and that they don't trust because it's not how their brain works. Or, yeah. Pick a thing. Yeah, they've had a bad experience.

Patti: Mm-hmm. That's what I was gonna say is, yeah, a lot of times too is it's, they've chosen a platform that maybe didn't work well for them, or didn't work at all, or whatever was glitchy.

Like who knows? Or they had somebody set it up that didn't set it up right. Like any of those reasons could have made it a negative experience, which now makes. Somebody. Mm-hmm. Not comfortable and not trust it. Right. Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So specifically we're gonna talk today about project management and CRMs together, and those are things that I think are super, super, super.

Mission critical to having your business, um, at any stage that you are in a business, as far as I'm concerned, and that they can look very simplistic. They could be spreadsheets. It doesn't matter as long as you're having some way to be tracking the people who are in your business and to be tracking the tasks and the work and the flows that need to be done in your business.

So, mm-hmm. I've had episodes about each one of them separate, but I've not really discussed sort of that. Connection between them, the integration, and so that's what you're here for. So talk to me a little bit about why you specifically like talking about CRMs and project management tools together.

Melissa: Oh my gosh.

How much time do we have, Patty? Okay, five hours.

Let's just go.

Melissa: I'm totally kidding. So I love these tools together so much because they are so powerful and not only do they make you so much more. Efficient. They let you stay in your creative zone of genius. They save you brain power. They help you deliver an out of this world client experience, but it also keeps you on top of things where it should be so that things don't get cluttered or messy or, um, you know, we've all had a task.

Hold up an automation somewhere and a CRM when that task should be living in your project management tool. Right. Um, I love them to get together because combined, it's like they turn you into Superman. Right, separate or without one, you've got a little bit of kryptonite going on, right? Like you're really great at client communication or you're really good at manhandling the work, but when you pair them together, that makes you dang near unstoppable, in my opinion,

honestly.

Patti: I love that. I love that. So talk a little bit. So for anyone, again, since I've had episodes about it, most people that are following us or listening probably know a bit about what A CRM is and a project management tool. But can you talk a little bit about how you utilize them yourself and in systems for business owners, especially in a way that they integrate well?

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So again, like they, just to review like CRM is for, to manage your client work, right? Project management tool is to manage your actual work, not your client facing stuff, right? So to use them when I encourage my clients to use them or the people that I work with to use them, um, what I really encourage them to do is to stick to those two lanes, right?

Keep your to-dos, keep your tasks out of your CRM so that those workflows and automations can function as they need to. Again, I love my CM dearly, but if you have a task in that workflow, it's gonna pause anything and everything. Mm-hmm. Is a big mistake. Right. So I like to keep tasks in my project management tool.

Also your CRM was not built to communicate with your team about a client, right? So if you're working with a VA or a copywriter or who, whoever else you have in your business, you can comment back and forth and email and text in WhatsApp about that client, but that's not really organized and not really referenceable and that kind of thing.

You have to dig through it. And so I like to use my project management tool to track all of that beautiful stuff as well too. Right, right. Yeah. Additionally, um, this is where we go into that. How much time do we have? But additionally, like your CRM was, was created to handle your client stuff. Every year at the end of the year or at the beginning of the year, a business owner sit down and we talk about goals, and we talk about sales goals and marketing goals and this and that, and mm-hmm I wanna be better about posting on social media.

Where are you gonna store all of that? How are you going to make the plan so that you actually reach those goals? Your CRM was not built for that. It cannot handle that. Right? Right. But if you take that and you put it into your project management tool, it can. Um, now in terms of working with them together, here's what a lot of people that I find are missing.

We have these beautiful workflows built in our CRM on our right hand side. Right. On our left hand side, it's a bi, just a big old, it can be one. If you're using a project management tool, that's awesome, but two, so often all of those to-dos just go into a random. List, if you will, or a random to-do list, right?

Mm-hmm. The key piece here is that you need to have a mirrored workflow in your project management tool that mirrors your CRM, right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: So say for instance, in your CRM. You're onboarding a new client. They just booked. They get the, here's what's happening next. Email. Your task in your project management workflow is send them a gift or whatever step your first manual step is for that.

Create the Google folder, whatever, whatever that looks like right over here. As you're sending them the email that says, Hey, fill out this questionnaire. You have a reminder set up two days later in your project management tool to go in and review their questions and then send, submit any follow up.

Questions are that kind of thing, right? So it's, they balance each other out in a way to make you just not miss a beat, and super, super power, powerful. That's why I like to use them together.

Patti: I love that so much and I do that, but I've never thought of it quite in that way of, of doing it. Like that way, when you say it in a mirrored sense, it, it really is the whole process of onboarding somebody.

I. On both sides. Right? That's front and back. That's what that is. Right? Right. And it's keeping everything moving and not just allowing it to get stuck in one place. And you're right. When you try to put, like, 'cause a lot of the, the CRMs have tasks and to do items and stuff like that. But I can't tell you when I.

Ever have actually like used that. I think when I first, I used 17 hats and mm-hmm. When I first started using that, I was using some of their task lists and stuff like that, that was nonsense. Like it didn't, it didn't last for a second, and so I have to have something totally separate. For my project management because otherwise it just doesn't, it doesn't work and it's not as robust.

I mean that's the other thing is it's sort of, I also recently had an episode where we talked about, um, all In Once and it's that sort of idea of like, you can find pla find tools that have both, but. They're gonna be not great at either one of them. And that's the beauty I think, of using both of them. Is that separately is you're finding tools that excel in their own lanes that then allow you to excel in yours?

Melissa: Yes. Oh my gosh. 100%. And I love, so I'm a big fan of like integration, right? Yeah. So when something happens in your CRM, let's do this other. Mm-hmm. Thing in your project management tool, right. I love using Zapier to connect the two. Yeah. So that when a new client signs a contract, it automatically creates their project management tool.

Task board and workflow for me. That way it's seamless. Right? That's an easy two steps app for mm-hmm. That anybody can set up, you know what I mean? Yeah. You don't have to have a systems background to set that kind of thing up. Um, but it makes things so much easier because then I already have due dates popping up on my calendar and everything like that.

So nothing really, nothing falls through the cracks. It's a seamless process all the way across.

Patti: Yeah. I actually have, um. So I use Zapier for all sorts of things, of course. And so one of the, the processes I have is when somebody signs up and does, um, a consultation in Acuity, they get zapped into my 17 hats and they get zapped into, I also manage some of their stuff, um, in Notion and then with the project management tool.

So. All at once, they schedule an appointment and data entry has been completed and I didn't have to do any of it. Mm-hmm. And now everything is ready to go, and I just go in and start moving through the process of things because it has turned everything on and it, it's not hard. It's took me mm-hmm. You know, five minutes to do that.

Melissa: Absolutely. I, I love it so much for that reason. And again, like so many creative small business owners, we have physical, not like weightlifting, you know what I mean? But like there's physical manual work that we have to do. Yeah. Whether you are a graphic designer or a website designer, or. Whatever it is you do, you have to keep track of that work somewhere.

Yeah. So it doesn't matter if you're a systems person, you, you understand how this works, you know what I mean? Yeah. But maybe you have in your project management tool after onboarding, then you send the questionnaire, you get that, you create your first drafts of your logo, right? Create first drafts of your logos in your project management tool.

But then you send it via your CRM. Like, they just, they balance each other out so incredibly well. And I feel like so many small business owners don't use. Both because they've been told you just need a CRM or a project management tool is for a bigger business and your CRM can handle the project related stuff.

Patti: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's, um, that was one of the things I wanted to talk about too, is that idea of a lot of people think, okay, well I need a CRM because mostly they start kind of going down that track because they need contracts, they need invoicing, things like that, and they wanna track leads, right?

Mm-hmm. They exactly like I'm just, it's just me. So why do I need a project management tool? I don't need to, but you do because you are holding all of this stuff in your head and it is just you that's running the show. But it's not just you and your business because your clients are in your business.

They are a part of that. And. There are things that you need to do in order to keep their experience really positive, and those are the things that it, it helps to put into your project management tool. Not to mention just getting shit outta your head. You know, the more that you just keep stuff that you drop and you forget, and then you fall behind and it's like, it just keeps you accountable.

And it lets your brain be free to actually think about other stuff like changing your, improving your business in some way or more income driving, um, tasks.

Melissa: You could not be more correct. And you said a couple of things there that I wanna touch on. Um, first it gets things outta your head, right? In my life as a wedding photographer in my, um, client workflow template, 'cause I had a pre-built template for all my wedding clients, I had all the to-dos that we needed to do, scout locations, so on and so forth.

Two things always got ridiculed when I shared my template with people. One of them was take the dry cleaning to the dry cleaners and pick it up. And the other was, find care for our Corgi People like, why do you need reminders to do that? So I don't forget because there's so many things going on and it has to be done for every single project, right?

I want my dogs to not be stuck at home for 16 hours, you know? But those are things that like, by getting it out and into your project management tool, it tells you, you have this thing to do today. Don't forget about it. It's important. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So. Even the most mundane things can go in there if you are scattered and crazy.

And honestly, the more clients you're working with, the more you're gonna be grateful that you have those reminders.

Mm-hmm. Honestly,

Melissa: um, the second thing you mentioned was just, you used the word just like three or four times there in a row. Right. I'm just to this, I'm just to that. It's just me and my business.

Yep. Oh my gosh. Yeah. There's no just, right, like it doesn't matter if you are just a hobbyist, weekend warrior, whatever. Yeah. Remove that word from your vocabulary because you are valid. What you are doing is important. Somebody is paying you to do it. It does not need to be justified. You do not need to justify.

You are worthy and deserving of. Have a tool, having a tool to free up your brain space, like,

Patti: yeah. Yeah, you have a business congratulations. Whether like there is no, I've had, I have to make x amount of money in order to like none of that or have this number of clients. If you have just started and if you have begun, now I'm thinking about the word just right.

Uh, but if you've, if you've begun and you don't yet have a client and you haven't yet made any money. Guess what, you still are a business owner and you still would benefit from having a to-do list, you know?

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, especially as a new business owner, as you are trying things out to figure out what works, what doesn't work, how are my clients reacting to this?

How are they reacting to that? If you just keep all of that in your head, you're gonna go crazy trying to remember what you did for Sally When Anne comes around, you know, like, yes.

Patti: Yeah, yeah. Which is the next thing I was gonna say is that it, it keeps track of historical data. And so it allows you to go back so you're not recreating the wheel and you can see, oh, this, these are the things I added to my list when I was doing that.

If you haven't yet created, you know, a standard workflow for an onboarding or anything like that, and you're just piecemealing for right now, which is also okay if you're in that stage. You can then go back and see, what did I put together for that? Oh great. That I didn't actually need this. These things I did, I'm gonna go ahead and move these in.

Yes. And maybe then get to a point where you're using these, like you said. Mm-hmm. Now you're creating an actual workflow that gets triggered when you have a new. Client in your CRM and that's one of those things that allows you to start building towards workflow. Yes. If you even start brain dumping in there and allow yourself to be basic with it, for lack of a better term.

Mm-hmm. That's okay too.

Melissa: Oh my gosh, absolutely. I also love using it. So, um, I know so many businesses work in phases, right? Yeah. Like there's phase one and then there's a revisionist phase and so on and so forth. I do that in my business too, and I love. Being able to look back at the timestamps for the actual work done in my project management tool in regards to when I sent out the emails to my client.

Hey, phase one is done. Hey, phase two is done. How much time did it take me to actually do that work? Do I need to extend this phase? Do I need to reel it back in? What does that look like? So I can set clear expectations for my clients. In my cm, I couldn't do that. Yeah. If it were just pen and paper, I mean, I would be guessing.

You know what I mean? Right. There's no way.

Patti: Right. Yeah. And that, and, and that's not something that's, that's tracking itself in the CRM, you're needing the project management tool for that.

Melissa: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

Patti: Yeah. So, so if somebody is at a point right now where they're just getting started with one or the other of them, right.

Where. Where do they start? What do you recommend they do? Maybe they have a CRM but not a project management tool. Maybe they have both and you know, where, where would you suggest they begin their journey?

Melissa: I love this question and it's probably 'cause I feel like I'm on the opposite side of what everybody else.

Feels like you should start with, right? Everybody tells you you need a CRM, right?

Mm-hmm.

Melissa: In my honest opinion, I think you start with a project management tool, and it's just so you can clear your brain up. Yes. So you have a place for all those things to go. Like you mentioned Patty, about. Brain dumping and getting the to-dos out.

Mm-hmm. That way you don't, I've worked with so many business owners who are told they need a CRM, and so they invest in the fancy CRM and then they try to get it set up, and then they get really frustrated 'cause things misfire, or they bought a template and it didn't work, and so on and so forth. Right?

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Melissa: Especially for new business owners, we just kind of talked about this. You, it's a little bit of trial and error, right? Yeah. And tracking what works and what doesn't. And you don't necessarily wanna spend the time building that CRM out.

Yeah.

Melissa: Or paying somebody to do it until you know your process.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And what that looks like. So I love documenting that in a project management tool and then transitioning it into A CRM, which is completely backwards from what so many people are gonna tell you to do. Right, right. Um, but again, it frees up your brain space, and I've worked with enough creatives to know that, like you can fly off of, you can fly using like Google email templates for a little bit if you need to.

Patti: Absolutely. Right.

Melissa: Yeah. Like you can use acuity, you can schedule and Google calendar. You can do all those things for a little bit if you need to, right? Mm-hmm. Clearing up brain space and doing the actual work for your clients. That can become chaotic.

Yeah.

Melissa: Real fast if you're not careful. So when it comes to implementing both, or even starting to build workflows in one instead of like looking at the whole big giant picture and all these workflow phases mm-hmm.

Start with what you have. Start simple. You know what I mean? Let's say, you know that you send a, you send three emails to your client in the inquiry phase, right. Get those email templates set up. Your inquiry workflow is three emails. That's okay. In your CRM, it's three emails there. Three emails is great.

Yeah, that's great. They don't have to be big. They don't have to be fancy. A workflow in either a project management tool or a CRM does not need to be 567 steps long.

Patti: Yes.

Melissa: Yeah. It can be three simple steps. Sent email. One to do in your project management tool. Check in in three days. If you don't have that, that automation option in your CRM.

Right. Send email too. Same kind of thing. Same thing with onboarding. Well, I know I wanna send the next steps. Email. But I don't know what else. Great step one of that. Onboarding workflow change status to booked. Step two, send onboarding email step three in your project management tool. Figure out what comes next.

You know, like that's okay. Yeah, yeah. It's

Patti: okay. Yeah, and it's, and it's also okay. That all of these things develop over time because especially when we're in early stages of a business, even when we're not right, even when we've been in our business for a while, it's always changing and our businesses will always change.

That is one constant, right in everything but. You have to kind of be flexible. And so you can't necessarily design an entire workflow and an integration between your platforms because you can guess how something is gonna go. You've gotta kind of go with it and see what happens and be able to make those changes as you move along.

Mm-hmm. And so I think there's something to that of. That, that idea of better done than perfect, right? Yes. Of just get started, get moving forward, get these things out of your head, and maybe you only have two steps right now, and that's okay. And maybe you don't have three steps, 3, 4, 5 until seven, eight.

Months from now, it's okay. Maybe you never do, maybe you only need two steps and that's okay too. Exactly. You don't have to look like everybody else's processes or systems or anything like that.

Melissa: No, not at all. I feel like you just, you just really hit the nail on the head, you know what I mean? What you have is better than nothing at all.

If you wait until you have a fully thought out. Client workflow or whatever, your clients are never gonna get anything from you. Yeah. And that's gonna be a worse client experience for them than getting one or maybe two emails, you know what I mean?

Patti: Right. And you might wanna burn down your business in the meantime.

Melissa: Right, exactly. 100%. And when it comes to comparison, like. There are so many people out there who float. So many. I'm booked with 57 clients and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm so busy doing all this onboarding, like can we just pause for a minute and say, being busy is not being like productive or a sign that your business is succeeding.

Like that comparison game, especially when it comes to, I delivered this amazing client experience to my clients and I did this gift and this and this and this and this. Don't let that eat at your head either. Like, yeah.

Patti: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I love that. I'm big, big, big on the cutting out the nonsense and the comparison and, and saying, okay, well, I have to do what this person's doing.

No, you don't. You have to do what works for you and in your business and in your clients and what your bandwidth is. Oh my gosh. Right?

Melissa: Yeah. Just because you see so-and-so using a big fancy tool with all these custom automations does not mean that the Todoist app or the Notes app on your phone via like an order of a checklist or a Google spreadsheet is not going to work for you.

Yeah. For like a project management tool or to keep track of your clients when you're getting started. Absolutely. It totally can. Yeah.

Patti: Yeah. And even, like I said, further in that could happen. So I use Notion for my project management tool, right? And we use it internally for my whole team. But for the way my brain works, I keep a text doc.

That's just like one of the basic, and that's where I keep my to-do list because that's how I function. And that's eight years into this business and, you know, right. 30 years and working and like, that's, that's what works for me. And so. I think that that's an important reminder too, of like, there is no right or wrong mm-hmm.

Of doing anything. You, you find your way as long as you're doing something to get the stuff out of your head. Mm-hmm. So that you don't drop those balls. Yeah. You keep things moving forward. Oh my

Melissa: gosh. 100%. I hear a lot of arguments about how I don't need a CRM or a project management tool. 'cause I'm a pen and paper kind of person.

I have my to-do list. Do you hear that a lot? I hear that all the time. Right. And I'm like, Hey, listen. You should see my planner here. Okay. Here's how these tools all work together, because I feel like that's a big piece that's missing is how do I use all of these together on a daily basis? Yeah. Right.

Like, so I always tell my clients when we're off boarding and training and all of that, it's like building a muscle, right? Yeah. You don't just decide you're gonna go run a marathon and then run a marathon the next day. I mean, I would mm-hmm. Not make it. Anywhere. Okay. My short legs would not be going anywhere.

You have to develop that muscle, right? Yeah. So it's logging into your email, it's checking your calendar, it's checking your CRM, checking your project management tool, and then taking whatever your project management tool tells you and your CRM and putting that into your paper planner.

Patti: Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. I love that. Use it all together. So kind of going with that, what. For somebody again, who's starting out with these, what are the first steps that, that they should take to, or could, I don't like to, should I agree? So what are some steps that somebody could take, say they have both in whatever form feels best for them.

Mm-hmm. What is the, the kind of lowest hanging fruit or the easiest way for them to start building this habit and taking these steps forward?

Melissa: Good question. All righty. So I think the best first step, honestly, is to map out your client workflow. And again, this does not have to be 567 steps long. It can be five steps long, and that's okay.

But you need to have an idea of what's gonna happen in which platform. That way you are straight right from there. Start with that low hanging fruit of when a contract is signed in my CRM create the project in my project management tool.

Yeah.

Melissa: One step, right when this happens here, do that. I, I'm happy to give this app recipe away.

I'll create a video if we need to, but it's, it's so simple to do that one thing and then, oh, look, now this client's here and I can't let them fall off my plate because there they are and they're their to do notes, right? So I like to do that again, and kind of going back to like you have your workflows built in your CRM.

If you've been working in a CRM for a long time, then what I'm gonna encourage you to do is to pull any manual to-dos or tasks from that CRM. Into a template in your project management tool. Most project management tools will let you create a project template or a workflow template in there. Mm-hmm. So that when this happens over here, when a client books over here, you can automatically apply that template in your project management tool.

That sounds so complicated. And I know, and maybe that should have been my giveaway today. I don't know. Um, but maybe I should put that together really quick. Um, but honestly, like. Start small. When you start connecting these tools, it does not have to be all or nothing. Okay. At some point, especially when you're building for yourself, you are likely going to encounter some errors and that's okay.

Yeah.

Melissa: Honestly,

yeah.

Melissa: I have integrations that, um, that misfire. It's just what it is. It's building and evolving and everything like that. It just happens, like so you might encounter some errors and don't let that. Dissuade you from trying to make these tools talk to each other because the outcome can just be so powerful as you continue to build up and get them to really communicate together.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So to that point of like, as we're starting to build it out, right, there's also, especially when we start moving into fancier tools and things like that, people start kind of getting sidetracked, I think, by customizing everything and making it all, oh well, but I should do this and I gotta do this.

So what are your thoughts about. Customizing these systems right away versus getting in and and working with them. Like what are your thoughts around all of that?

Melissa: Oh, that's such a good question and I admittedly, Patty, I am guilty of. Customizing the heck and back like

Patti: that's 'cause we love tech though.

And like, right? Like give me

Melissa: like, I probably spent solid two weeks customizing my very first Trello board. Okay. Everything had custom image and like everything like that. But what I'm gonna encourage you to do is to take some time and spend it with the tool. I think where so many people get so overwhelmed is the possibility of.

Everything. Yeah. And all the customizations. And when you first sign up for one of these tools, they put you on the pro plan so you can do

all the customizations that you want to. Yeah. Which is just so much more overwhelming.

Melissa: Right. But like start simple, start with your weekly to-do list and figure out how you like to function in that tool.

Yeah. What used do you like, are there labels that you wished you had that you can then create like. I, I don't wanna say I discourage you from customizing, like first, because that's what makes it, that's what makes it your tool.

Yeah.

Melissa: But also shiny object syndrome is real and, yeah. If we're busy, like my first project management tool was Trello.

If we're busy spending two weeks to three weeks customizing all the cards and everything like that, so they look pretty and are brand friendly and like are super awesome. You're not actually using the tool, right? Right. Correct. Let's just be honest. You're not actually using the tool. Yeah. You are being busy for the sake of being busy, not actually being productive and there well.

Again, I'm the first to admit I've done that time and time again. Like it's actually using the tool and going through the motions and flexing that muscle. And growing that muscle. Yeah. Of checking in that's going to help you figure out how you want to use it. Yeah. Tied with that, I think, and you mentioned this before earlier, a lot of people get attached to tools that aren't right for them.

I don't remember when you said that, but you mentioned that and that really hit home because. The tool has to work for you, right? Yeah. And if you go, if you spend all this time customizing the heck out of it, only to find out after you actually start using it, this is not how my brain functions. I cannot handle this.

Mm-hmm. And you have to jump ship to another tool. Yes. Well, and that's okay, right? Yes. Yes. Um, absolutely. Okay. The tool that works for you is the tool that works for you? Yes. But like two. Get to know at first. Yeah. Right. It's like dating. Yeah. Right. That's

it's hundred percent like dating. Yes. You gotta get to know each other.

You gotta figure out what you like, how do you, what outfits are we digging? What

Melissa: restaurants, you

know, everything like

Melissa: that. Yeah. Before you can really go full on and commit. So like date your tool. Wow. That sounds really weird. Date your tool. It doesn't,

Patti: it doesn't. I mean, I hang out on Saturday nights and customize my tool.

So

I'm just saying like the Trello board that I set up, it looked hella cooler than my boring Clickup board.

Melissa: Right, right. But

Clickup is

Melissa: way more functional for me than Trello ever was. Trello, it was a great PM tool. I recommend it all the time. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But still.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think, and, and kind of like I touched on before a little bit, you don't necessarily know your needs right away anyway.

And until you grow with your tool, grow with your business, those needs are gonna change and therefore that customization is gonna change. So, and I love that idea of saying. Maybe, maybe don't plan to customize immediately. Start by getting to know the tool first. Figuring out if you actually like the tool.

Mm-hmm. Always start with trials whenever you can.

Mm-hmm.

Patti: And then once you're like, oh yeah, I like this. This is, I, I can see how I can use this for my brain. Then you can start playing with the customizations and, and all of that, I think. Yeah.

Melissa: Oh my gosh. So my husband and I ran a business together for 15 years, right?

We no longer do, which is probably safer marriage. But as part of that, I ran the business, which means that I picked out the tools, right? Mm. Yeah. I already mentioned how insanely creative he was. My brain does not work like that. My brain is very logical and list oriented and things like that. And so when it came time to pick out tools, I found the best tools, right?

Like I hopped around until I found the best ones. I tried for years to get him to use Clickup years, and I'm like, Kyle, I can fully customize it and we can do this, and we can do that, and we can do this. And he is like, great. It's confusing. I don't like it. I'm not gonna use it. Right? Years, I tried to get this man to use this tool.

He hires a va. And after one conversation, she's like, oh, you don't like Clickup? Okay. Have you tried Asana? Maybe it'll work better for your brain. And I'm like, I hate Asana. And he's like, yeah, let's try it. Guess what tool he uses? You know what I mean? Yeah. 'cause he, it works better for his brain. Your tool has to work the way that you like to work.

Right. I still dislike Asana. He still uses it and it's fully custom for him. Now you better believe

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. Point of that story. But that's, and that's exactly it, right? Is that everybody is different with what works for them. Mm-hmm. And, which I think is an important thing, is that if you have been trying to use, uh, A CRM and a project management tool together, but it's not working and you're getting frustrated, it might not be you.

It's probably the tool and it's time to look into something else, and maybe it's both tools need different. Maybe it's one of them that doesn't quite work right for you and there is absolutely nothing wrong. There are 5 billion freaking tools out. There's okay for you to shop around and find the one that makes sense for you, even if your best friend or your partner.

Is like, I don't want it to work for me. That's okay. Yeah. They have a different brain than you.

Melissa: Right. You said you use Notion, I use Clickup, the number of bus business owners who I know that work in and love Trello because it is easy. Yeah. Right. There are so many big, complicated tools out there. Mm-hmm.

Yes. But sometimes it's the simplest and the easiest that actually get the job done. Absolutely. Don't be afraid to go from super complicated down to what feels basic. Yeah. Because it's often simplifying. Yeah. It gets the most done.

Patti: Yeah. Like I said, literally I use a tech doc to manage my, like, that's it.

That's how I manage the things I have to do on a daily basis. Yes, I have all the bells and whistles that I've built out in notion, yes, I can use whatever else, but. That's great for everybody on my team and the way we work as a, as a large, as a, as a large organization, as a very small organization. But you know, it as a lot tripping.

But for me, on my own, that's what I live and die by mm-hmm. Is my little tech doc and that's it. Right. And that's fine. So I, I agree. Mm-hmm. I think it's, it's, there's nothing wrong with going as simple or as complex as you need.

Melissa: As long as your tools work for you. Yes, and you can all do you know what I love about Zapier?

We've talked a little bit about integrating, but you know what I love about z? It will let you try things and it will literally tell you if it succeeded or failed. Right. So you can go in and you can plug your formula in and lately they've introduced like that AI feature if you tried that. Mm-hmm. Where you literally type in this box if you're afraid of using a new integrator or Z peer, that kind of thing.

Friends listen up, um, they've introduced this new AI feature where you can literally type in the box when I get an email in Devs Auto. I wanted to do this in Clickup and it will help you build the steps for you.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. So easy. They've made it super easy to use. And of course, like you said, zaps breaks.

Sometimes that happens. Sometimes I get an error and I'm like, oh, okay, I gotta go fix that. Right? But it's not the end of the world and usually it's a little thing that needs to be refreshed. Mm-hmm. Or you know, um, but what it does to make everything so much easier is so worth it. And yeah, that AI bit really makes a difference, I think, for a lot of people who feel overwhelmed.

I think so too. Because you literally go in and, and. And say, I want this to happen if this, then that. And it's like, cool, we can do that. Or Nope. And here's alternatives.

Melissa: Exactly. Exactly. I love it so much for making your tools talk to each other so much. Yeah. And it always tells you an error. And here's the thing about if something airs out in your client experience, right.

My system might detect malfunctioned or whatever. Tell whatever you're gonna tell your client. It's okay. Yeah. You know what I mean? I was trying to make this update so I could do this really cool thing for my clients. They're not gonna be mad about you trying to serve them better. Right, right. Correct.

Like, yeah, it's okay. Yeah, I know. It's super embarrassing. Yeah. That's why you test. It's fine.

Patti: But also I think too, that I. When, especially for those who are B2B

mm-hmm.

Patti: They get it. The business, the other business owners get it, right? Yes. And they're like, oh yeah, I've been there. You know? And I think that as long as you're being honest about the situation, like that's one of my favorite thing is when I get a, an email that's like, oops, we had a tech hiccup because we're all human.

And we, we connect and relate to that. So don't be afraid to try something and if it doesn't work, then say, oops, I tried something, it didn't work. That's okay. And move on. You know? But I found this other thing in the process or whatever. Right,

Melissa: exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Patti: Yeah. That's so great. So is there anything that you wanna share about this beautiful marriage of tools or anything that we haven't yet talked about?

Melissa: Don't give up on it.

Patti: Yeah.

Melissa: Okay. I know that like in this world, when it comes to technology, when it comes to platforms and running a business, we want things, we want that instant gratification. We want it to work right. We want it to work right the first time. It's not gonna happen all the time. And that's okay.

That's okay. Just to, just to be honest with you, I was, um, even me as a systems person, it doesn't work right all the time. Oh yeah. I was, me too. I was trying to work with a client for like a month almost. To get her. She does like, um, she sells products on a Squarespace website and we were trying to zap her sales into an Airtable sheet.

Yeah. You know, where this is going so that we could update her sales and inventory and everything like that. Right. She's product based. Um, well, as it turns out with. Squarespace, you can only zap based off of a form filled out. And so I'm like, oh, it's fine. We're gonna email parse this and pull this out and do this and do that.

Yeah. And 'cause of the way she had her products labeled on the back end of her website, it took us a good month to figure out why this wasn't working. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay if it doesn't work. We found a better solution. It's fine. It's simpler the whole way around, but don't give up on it. Yeah, try it once.

If it fails, try it again. It's okay. Like what's that old dodge like? Try and try again. If at first you don't succeed. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. You know

Melissa: what I mean? Yeah. But also like, I'm really gonna encourage people to pull their tasks out of their CRM. Let your CRM handle your people. Yeah. Right. That's what it's really, really good at.

Yeah.

Melissa: And let your project management tool handle all of your chaos and creativity and communication and everything like that, so that they're talking to each other but not, and working together. Um, you know what I mean? But not fighting against each other. This is gonna sound so silly. I'm trying to catch up on you, right, on Netflix.

Patti: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: So I went back to like season two to start rewatching. I did some major binging yesterday, but anyway, at one point I. And I don't think this is any spoilers, but at one point I'm in season three, Joe and Love are in therapy, and they're like, have you ever tried working as a team together instead of against each other?

Right. This is what your tools are doing.

Patti: Mm, yeah.

Melissa: Right. They're working as a team together to support you, not against each other to butt heads.

Patti: Right. Right. Yeah. Let each tool shine and do its thing. Yes. And stay in its lane.

Melissa: Support the other one. Yeah, exactly.

Patti: Yeah, absolutely. Because obviously I like tech.

And you like tech. Yeah. Tell me, so it sounds like Clickup is your go-to right now for project management. What is your go-to for CRM or, or in general, if click ups not your favorite, what are your favorite. CRM and your favorite project management tool?

Melissa: I love Clickup. Okay. And now that, now that I've been using it for like eight years, I've taken the time to fully customize it, right?

Mm-hmm. And figure that out. But I love Clickup. Like honestly, I could not function without my, like I've got so many spaces in there, right? But my, on my brain dump. Yeah. And my ongoing to-do list and honestly just the communication back and forth with my VA and each of the client templates.

Yeah.

Melissa: Because I know that when I know that when a new project gets created, it's gonna remap those due dates for me and automatically put it on my calendar so I can plan out my work time off, everything like that.

Yeah. And I just, I think I could live without my CRM, but not without Clickup.

Patti: What, what's your CRM?

Melissa: I love Dub, man. I love it. Got it. I'm the Dato girl through and through. Yeah. And I landed there. So at wedding photography business, 15 years. Right. He was the photographer. I ran the business, I jumped platforms.

Just for shingles, you know what I mean? Just, just, just to do it, just to jump around to see what, what worked and what I liked best and so on and so forth. Yeah. 'cause he didn't care. So I ran my business in Tve and, and RA studio and Studio Ninja and TA and 17 hats and honey, like I run a business in all of them.

Not all of them, right? Because so many no hunts have been introduced, but like. Dato was finally the one that I landed on that was friendly for his brain, customizable for mine. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. But I love the custom features of it. Yeah. Um, I'm super excited to see like Dato 3.0 roll out and all of that good stuff, but I, uh, I'm a big fan.

Patti: Yeah. I love it.

Melissa: Great. But that being said, that being said, that's the best tool for me. It is not the best tool for everybody.

Patti: Yeah. Which, and, and to that, right? So I'm also obviously a systems person. Mm-hmm. I tried ddo, I, well, I started in 17 hats. Mm-hmm. And I tried ddo, I also tried HoneyBook. Mm-hmm. I'm back.

I, I'm 17. Hats die hard. I think that's much easier to use. There were, there are some customizable things in DIP that I like a little bit better. But the overall forage for me didn't work well for my brain. Likewise, I went into Clickup at one point 'cause I was in Asuna. And I loved Asana. Mm-hmm. And I never liked Trello, right?

Mm-hmm. So, I mean, it's, it's interesting because we're hearing how like we can track brains and how our brains work. Right, right, right. Like you liked Trello and hated Asana, and I hated Trello and loved Asana. And then I tried Clickup and was like, brain melts down. Like, for me there, it just didn't, you know, if I spent more time in it, I'm sure I could get there.

Same, but it just never clicked for me and mm-hmm. And I moved on and in a notion, and so, right. It's another example of two people who are super competent and tech savvy and all of this stuff that are like me, I don't like what you use. You don't like what I use. And that's cool. That's. Fine.

Melissa: It really is, and I feel like so many people when a tool doesn't work for them, but it works for everybody else and their brother, they're like, oh my gosh, what's wrong with me?

I'm stupid. I'm dumb. I can't get this. No, it's not you. It's just the tool. Yeah, yeah, just the tool. Exactly. There's nothing wrong with your big, beautiful, creative brain. Nothing at all.

Patti: I love it. Nothing

Melissa: at all.

Patti: I love it. Yeah. So if anybody wants to work with you or follow you or anything like that, how do they find you?

Melissa: Yeah, I'm at Virtually Done Systems. Yes, it's a big mouthful. Yes, I apologize. Um, on Instagram, Facebook, I'm Melissa at Virtually Done Systems, but that's my website too. Virtually done systems.com. Um, there's lots of cute coy butt pictures and that kind of thing. If you follow me on Instagram, if that's your jam,

Patti: that's so great.

This has been super fun and super informative and helpful. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Biz Magic Podcast. Like most small businesses and podcasts, we rely heavily on word of mouth. So if you like what you heard today or in any episode, please share with your friends and colleagues.

And rate, subscribe and comment on your favorite podcast platform. Till next time, cheers to your magical biz success.