Facebook Groups: The Current Best Practices

We’ve all heard the rumors: “Facebook groups are dead.”

Spoiler—they’re not. They’ve just evolved.

In this episode, I’m talking with Michelle Vroom—business coach, community builder, and someone who’s been using her Facebook group to grow a multi-six-figure business for years (and isn’t planning to stop anytime soon).

We get into:

• Why small, specific groups are outperforming the big, noisy ones
• How buyer behavior is shifting in 2025—and what that means for your content
• What makes a group actually valuable (hint: it’s not engagement posts or promo threads)
• How to revive a quiet group without burning yourself out
• What most people get wrong when they try to start or grow a community

Michelle also shares the behind-the-scenes of her high-touch business model and how she uses Facebook groups to build trust without relying on flashy funnels.

Whether you’re just thinking about starting a group, or you’ve got one that feels like a ghost town, this conversation will help you figure out your next right move—without jumping on trends that don’t serve you.

About Michelle:

Michelle Vroom is a business coach with nearly 20 years of marketing & PR experience with nonprofits, agencies, and big corporations. Now she helps women service providers & coaches grow to 6-figures & beyond so they can become the provider for their families. With 3 boys at home, Michelle understands the challenges of limited resources & time, and shares her proven methods for visibility and relationship building that put you in control of getting clients.

Links:

Website

Facebook Group

Facebook

Instagram

Michelle’s team has put together a calendar with daily tips you can take in an hour or less to sign a new client in 30 days. Each action step only takes 60 min or less, so super easy to do.⁣⁣ ⁣⁣When you download the calendar, you’ll also get daily emails to guide you through the process and keep you on track:

https://michellevroom.com/30-days-to-new-clients

Learn more about BizMagic or the BizMagic Podcast.

Transcript

Patti: Welcome back to another episode of the Biz Magic Podcast, your place for all things tech in your online business with solid. So General Biz Chat two. My name is Patty Meyer and I am the CEO and founder of Biz Magic, where my team and I support entrepreneurs who are overwhelmed by the backend tech of their business.

We create, implement, and teach the tweaks that help our clients make a bigger impact with less stress. Many of us know that building and maintaining communities as a service can be super challenging. There's a lot of ways to build out communities using platforms like Mighty Networks or Circle. You can venture into WhatsApp or Discord, or you can use other free tools like Slack.

But one of the most common ways that businesses have tried to build communities as a service is through Facebook groups. But Facebook groups have been on a journey, and they've changed a lot since they were first introduced many, many years ago. And at that point, they were like the go-to for business engagement on social media.

So today we're gonna dive into what's actually. Working with Facebook groups right now and how you can use them to grow your business in a more intentional and sustainable way. And we're gonna do that by talking to my guest, who is Michelle Vroom, a marketing strategist who has built a thriving business using the power of community specifically.

Her Facebook group, Michelle Vroom is a business coach. With nearly 20 years of marketing and PR experience with nonprofits, agencies, and big corporations, she now helps women service providers and coaches grow to six figures and beyond so they can become the provider for their families. With three boys at home, Michelle understands the challenges of limited resources and time and shares her proven methods for visibility and relationship building that put you in control of getting clients.

So we are gonna talk about why small groups are outperforming large ones, how buyer behavior is shifting in 2025, and what that means for your content and connection strategies. So whether you've got a group that feels like it's a ghost town or you've been considering starting one, but you're not sure how to make it worth your time or how to even get it going, this conversation will give you some clarity, some strategy and encouragement to move forward.

So let's get into it. Thank you for joining me, Michelle. It's so nice to get to chat with you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Yeah, me too. So, even though I read a little intro and all of that, why don't you tell the audience and me a little bit more about you and how you kind of got to be doing what you're doing, uh, right now.

Michelle: Yeah, I, uh, never imagined I'd be where I am today. Um, I started my business nine years ago. Just had my ninth anniversary last month. Oh, great. Goodness. Yeah, I know. Thank you. I'm like, 10 years will be wild when that happens. Um, I started my business when my oldest, I have three boys at home, was six months old.

I, you know, had a, I think a similar journey to a lot of people. You know, always wanted to start my own business, but thought, well, I'll wait till I have kids, or I'll wait till they're older. I'll wait till I'm in my fifties. Thank goodness I didn't listen to any of that. 'cause I would still be waiting.

And

Michelle: you know, it never really felt like the right time until I had my son and you know, I had a cushy corporate job of making good money.

Right. Nothing was wrong. Yeah.

It just

Michelle: wasn't what I really wanted. I wanted freedom and flexibility, but I also wanted to still be able to do my own thing.

Yeah.

Michelle: And um, during maternity leave, I had a bunch of opportunities come my way from family and friends who wanted help with social media. So I started out doing Done for You work before I moved into coaching.

Mm-hmm. I think I went back to work for two months after maternity leave and then. Said, see you later. Um, and you know, it was a big sacrifice financially for our family. I'll say that it was very big sacrifice. It was very scary. But at the same time, I knew I didn't wanna ever like wonder what if, you know, and look back with regret.

So, um, I went out on my own and then about a year and a half into business, two years I started coaching. I shifted into coaching, and now I'm a business coach who helps other women. Create really steady, predictable six figure businesses working 20 hours a week because that's what I did, and I know so many people want simplicity.

I even work with clients who are at six figures and they don't feel like things are predictable or simple. Right? It's like that unpredictable success I feel like is something that I see a lot. So for me, being able to coach women in, you know, having that consistency, having that predictability, always knowing, like always filling in control of making the money they wanna make so they can provide for their family, that really has just become such a bigger mission for me over the years.

You know, and, um, now that's what I get to do. Wow. And my business is very simple. It is very predictable. I have sustained multiple six figures every year for the last seven years. Wow. And it's something that I take for granted, you know, so much so that I don't think I talk about it as much as I should.

Yeah.

Patti: So,

Michelle: you know, it's provided so much for my family and I, I really want to do that for others. You know, women who have seen some success in business, they've gotten some clients, but they know that more is possible. Yeah. And um, yeah, now I've just devoted my entire business to, to supporting those women.

Patti: And do

you,

Michelle: do you

Patti: have passive income that gets you to this point? Or is it all with your coaching or talking Coaching? Coaching? It's all coaching.

Michelle: Coaching. All coaching. Yep. Um, I definitely think the business model. I'll be honest, helped a lot. I feel very strongly that not all business models are created equal.

Okay. Not all makes sense for every stage of business. I see a lot of people focusing on a model that is very, very difficult with the stage of business that they're at. Not all strategies are created equal. Mm. All strategies have the potential to work, but not at every level of business. Right. And that's something else that I really see, like a lot of like, okay.

I'll give you an example. Yeah. I see people. Coaches and experts selling how to create a course. Mm-hmm. To brand new business owners who have never served a client before. Right? Yeah. I'm like, how can we do that? They don't have the audience required to sell a $97 course. No. If you wanna get to six figures from a $97 course, like not happening, there's things that are required of you, and I think it's a way harder path.

And so for me, the business model that I chose, which is very high touch, it actually continues to be, in fact, I've. I sort of shifted my business recently to be even more high touch, just out of a calling for what was on my heart. But that helped. I didn't need a high volume of clients. I didn't need all these people coming through.

So while I've had courses before, while I've had quote unquote passive income before, it's never really passive. The amount of marketing required to sell that. Those types of things. I think a lot of people underestimate.

Yeah.

Michelle: And um, you know, my clients can do whatever they feel is best for their business.

It's not my business, I will say that, right. I'm never gonna tell someone who really wants to do a course, like you can't. I'm just gonna tell 'em what to expect. 'cause I think we have the wrong expectations as well. And that's a whole other topic. Patty, I don't know how much you want me to dive down that rabbit hole, but

since you brought it up.

Patti: Yeah. What's really interesting is I just spoke with somebody and I, I can't remember if their episode will air before or after this one, but we were. Talking about just sort of tangentially like this, that,

yeah, that

Patti: idea of. W especially those who are newer to the online business world and there's this conversation of, oh, if you, you can be successful doing X, Y, z.

And course selling courses is one of those big ones that are like, if you make the right course, you'll just sell it. But we don't. Talk about all the things that happen on the back end and what you actually need to have in order to have that kind of successful course. That when you see people that are like, oh yeah, I just like all, every day I'm like, oh, there's 97.

There's another five 90 sevens that went through. Like, but they had a list and they've been working on this and they have this engagement, and so you can't just start. And people don't magically, it's not the, the, uh, just build it and people will come. Like, they have to find you. They have to know about you.

You have to have some credibility. Like there's, there's so much that goes into that and we don't talk about that. And that leads a lot to people feeling, um, like they failed. Like they're, they don't good enough. They don't know what they're doing. They're not success, like all of these things when really it's that expectation piece and it's that just not understanding what goes into some of this.

Stuff. Um, because they just see the front end magic of it where somebody's like, I've made all this money, and, but they don't talk about all the things that it took and all, all the mistakes they made and all the failures and the ups and downs and, and or lessons that they learned. I don't like failures, but lessons that they've learned and yeah, setbacks.

Yeah. You know, you don't hear about all of that. You just are like, oh, it's just magic and I make all this stuff. And so I think it's important to talk about those things and you could not agree more. Yeah.

Michelle: It actually builds so much trust, and that's a big part of why people have hired me.

Patti: Yeah. Is because of That's, yeah.

So the main reason you're here today is to talk specifically about Facebook groups. Mm-hmm. And you, so you have. Um, a lot of experience with that. So let's talk at and Right, like I remember, so Biz Magic is eight years old, and so I remember when. It was first it was business pages, right? Like that was the thing, and you'd have your business page and how many likes could you get on your business page?

And then groups came out, and that was the thing, because people would get notifications if you posted in a group. And so that was like everybody flocked to the groups. And that was the go-to place for business engagement on Facebook. Boy has that changed Right. Over the time. So let's talk about what, what's happening in Facebook groups?

What should we know? What's the latest and, and what's happening? Sure, sure.

Michelle: Awesome. Okay. So I think Facebook groups have gone through a lot of seasons, just like anything. Mm-hmm. Um, in business and. And you know what I've noticed if I look at the last nine years, and some of it you've already touched on, but just to give everyone like a holistic view of the seasons.

Yeah. Um, when I started my business in 2016, um. Business pages were definitely still, like, I remember like pouring so much into my business page and I chuckle now like, oh, you sweet, sweet Michelle. Yeah. You didn't, you didn't know. Right, right. Um, and then I started my group in 2018 and I remember that was like a time when groups were really hot.

Like, I think, I think that was a huge sort of like, Ooh, wow. Like this is this new way to, you know, communicate. Yeah. Right. In a community. I remember joining groups when I first, you know, started my business. It was a great way to get connected, all of that. Mm-hmm.

Um.

Michelle: And then, you know, I think that continued for a little while and I think.

It hit an even more of a resurgence in 2020 because of what was going on in the world. Everyone was at home. Yeah. There was a need for community.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle: I don't know when that started to shift. I wanna say, you know, it feels like the years blend together, but maybe like 2022 into 2023, even into last year, you started seeing a lot of negativity about groups.

Like, groups aren't getting the reach that I want. They're not getting the engagement that I want. I'm gonna leave and create a different community I'll. Side of Facebook. Right. I saw a lot of that. And I will say I have had my group since March of 2018, so over seven years, and I never left. I weathered the, the storm, so to speak, because I know that these things are cyclical.

Right. And that's exactly what's happening now. That brings us to today, I believe, uh, this is not something I've tested, but it's something I'm witnessing, it's something I'm hearing and it's something I do believe. Because of what's going on with ai, because of what's happening, you know? And we don't, we haven't even scratched the surface.

I honestly don't know where this is going. Yeah. I think there's amazing things and I also like have a little bit of trepidation in terms of like, I think we're gonna struggle to know what's real. I think there are some very serious things. I agree. It's already that. Yeah.

Patti: Already. Yeah.

Michelle: Because of that though, we're gonna see the pendulum swing now to the desire for community and groups again.

So we are actually seeing Facebook prioritize groups again. Even at the time when Facebook didn't prioritize groups, my group never suffered. And I'll explain why. Like I approach groups way different than I think most people do. Mm-hmm. But I've seen people who shut down their groups reopening it. Like within the span of a week, I saw two people who have like groups of, you know, 10,000 or more reopening it.

And I'm like, yeah, because what's happening is, is they're taking it to another platform. But the challenge with those other platforms that no one's talking about is you have to get people to use them. Like it or not. Yes. Yeah. Like it or not, Facebook is. Still on top. I agree. Like I don't care what anyone says, you can hate that, but it is what it is.

Mm-hmm. And so

Michelle: instead of, you know, pushing the boulder up the hill, I prefer to have things be efficient and I love my community. Yeah. If that ever changes, I will change with it. Because what my success is not about a Facebook group. This is where people go wrong. They're like, I would never do a Facebook group, or I hate groups because it's like, well, but it's not the group.

Right. It could, I could create this on any platform.

It's

Michelle: about what I'm doing in the group to build trust and to build relationship. That is what continues to pay off for me. It's because I have those relationships that I didn't care whether Facebook was prioritizing my group or not. Right. Right. 'cause people have a relationship with me, so what are they doing?

They're seeking the group out.

So I don't

Michelle: give a crap what the algorithm's doing on any given day.

I'm, I'm in

Michelle: control. Right. I'm in control

right now.

Michelle: I know there are people who are gonna hear that and say, well. If Facebook shut down tomorrow, which is such a, a silly thing to say 'cause it's not going to right, like it's not going to anytime soon, but I understand the sentiment, right?

Mm-hmm. If Facebook shut down tomorrow, what would you do? It's like, well, I know how to build a community anywhere, so I'm still in control. Mm-hmm. That's the thing. I don't even entertain that thought or worry about it. It's not like I'm sticking my head in the sand. Right. I don't see that happening. I think, I think we have so many years of like conditioning of being on Facebook that I think it would be very hard to turn that tide.

I'm not saying it always will be that way. Sure.

But like

Michelle: Facebook, I mean, I remember. Creating a Facebook account in 2006. Okay? Oh yeah. In on 20 years. It has longevity. I don't care what this, so more

Patti: than anything else that we, because we now you,

Michelle: yeah. Like, like, am I blind to the fact that it could change?

No, but why sit around and entertain that every single day? Right? Because then I'm thinking about, well, what if an entertaining, worst case scenario every day instead of focusing on the community that I'm building, which is producing consistent, steady revenue in my business?

Patti: Right. Yeah,

Michelle: so that's where I feel like we're at and those are some of the changes I think are happening is that actually, and smaller groups are also performing really well.

It used to be back in the 2018 to 2020 era. That it was like all about getting your group to numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. Now I think group growth has been challenging lately. We've seen some challenges with that. I know some of my clients have, I'm happy to, to speak to any of that as well. But like that actually doesn't matter as much right now because people also want smaller communities that are more close knit and that are more specific.

And so it's like a return back to Facebook groups, but in a different way. And again, I can go anywhere you want to, but that's sort of like a holistic view that I hope is helpful and also reassuring for people as well to see like what era we're in, you know what I mean? What season we're in. Yeah,

Patti: yeah, yeah.

You said so many things that I was over here like Oh yeah. That and that

Michelle: and that. Yeah.

Patti: And, and I agree with so much of that, especially the part of saying, well, you know, and so many people wanna leave Facebook and some people do, and that's okay. Um. But most people tend to stay even though, or they go for, you know, a week or two to some other platform, they're like, yeah, but nobody's here.

And then they come back. And when you, and this is something I talk about with my clients too, when they wanna start, you know, communities on Mighty Networks or it doesn't matter where, anywhere that's outside of Facebook in that way. Like, but, but people are on Facebook, they're already there. And therefore, they're going to see your stuff in your group more readily than they will.

They're not used to logging into Mighty Networks every day. They're not used to that, so the chance of them stopping, that's a new habit that has to be built. And so your group has to have the draw. Ted have somebody start a new habit. Yeah. And, and that's talking about that value that you're saying that happens inside the group, and that's where it is the most important.

It's not about numbers, because who gives a shit about numbers? It's because 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

Michelle: Patty, can I give some tough love to the people listening? Yeah. Oh, please. I mean, I just wanna say this. If your reason for moving your community somewhere else is because you don't like Facebook. Then you've made it all about you and not about the habits of the person you're trying to market to.

Patti: Right?

Michelle: Right. When it's all about you, you can expect to see that show up in your results.

Patti: Right.

Michelle: Versus when you make it about the other person. Mm-hmm. Like, do you like your reasons? Are your reasons actually rooted in who your marketing to? Or are you just doing it because you don't like something? I mean, I think we have to get honest about that with ourselves.

Yeah. You know, and raise the standard a bit. Yeah. I'm not saying everybody has to have a Facebook group. I have clients who don't have Facebook groups. Mm-hmm. But like, look at your reasoning for shifting. So many people are making shifts because they don't like something. Instead of like, okay, how can I reframe this and approach it a different way?

Because this is how I'm, how my people wanna be marketed to, or this is like where my people are. I don't know. I feel like people are throwing out so many good opportunities. Yeah. And making rash decisions too. So I think we have to be careful of that. That's a tough love I would give. And not everybody needs that.

Mm-hmm. Who's listening, but somebody will, you know? Yeah.

Patti: And I agree. I agree with that fully. And I will say that. I do also, and I'm sure you have clients who have successful communities in other places and a hundred percent. So that is a possibility. It's a

Michelle: possibility,

Patti: yes. And I think it does come down to who are your people and are your people not on Facebook?

And they're like, I am. Hey, I am good to hang out in Slack. Let's do it. Yep. I'm here because I am in communities in Slack and in other places that are successful. I don't go as much because I tend to be on Facebook, so I tend to, to steer away, but they are successful and that is great. So I think it's important to also say that, but I agree.

I think that the lesson here is. Don't make a decision based on a trend that you hear is happening a hundred percent or what you, your own feelings are in that way, unless that there is a value alignment. Yep. That feels very off with you. Core

Michelle: values. Yes. Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent and

Patti: you go and you do you.

Yep. It's completely okay. Yeah. If you're doing it just because you're like, I don't want to be on Facebook. Just 'cause

Michelle: because it feels like it's not working or it's like not rooted in Yeah. Versus if it, if it feels like an opportunity to be off of it, by all means. I just feel like that, you know, and what I love what you just said about the trends, because I'm remembering, remember.

Clubhouse was a thing. Yeah. I mean, I guess some people are still doing all of them, right? There's like, yeah, like if you're still making clubhouse work great. More power too. But like everybody was like, that's the next best thing. You're behind if you, I, I think our industry, my perspective from having spent nine years in the industry is that we're always like, you're behind.

If you're not doing this, you're behind. If you're not jumping on the next trend. And I think it sends people down a path that makes it 10 times harder for them. Totally. It adds extra steps. Like if you feel like you wanna jump on a trend for a good reason. Go for it. Yeah. But I have also found that like.

Staying the course, there's, it's not the sexy answer, is it? Yeah. But it's like such a powerful one and one that I hope reassures someone too who might be like, oh, do I need to like ju If it makes you feel panicky inside, take a beat and don't do it. Yeah. Because you'll just, it'll create more panic in your business and chaos in your business too.

Yeah.

Patti: And

Michelle: it's the opposite of simple. Yeah.

Patti: And you can always. You don't have to do it right away. Like that's when those things come, I usually sit and I watch, same, same. Let's, let's, let's chill for a couple months and see what happens. And maybe I'll go and peek in there, but I definitely don't change my strategies.

I don't jump ship. And, um, and more often than not, they, they, yeah, they don't work out or they don't last be, and there's reasons for that. Again, there's habits and that sort of thing, but. Um, yeah, so I mean, this is, yeah, we could go down so much as far as that goes, but let's talk about. Smaller groups, right?

Yeah. So, so you mentioned that when you were talking, so why is it that smaller groups perform better than larger ones? Um, yep. And you mentioned that a little bit about wanting kind of that, that closer community, but what does that mean for someone that's just starting out or struggling to grow their group?

Michelle: Yeah. Well first, I'll say this, the hardest part of group growth is getting your first a hundred members. I don't know why it is, but it just is so, like if you're in that bad place right now. Don't stop. Like Right. You're gonna feel it. It's gonna feel like you're the only one talking. Like I have been through that.

Um, I just really wanna encourage someone. 'cause I feel like people stop and think they're doing something wrong and it's like, no, this is just the like, I don't know, I hate to say like crappy part of it that you just have to like power through. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Well it's like when you're

Patti: starting a business, you have a period where you're just like, people don't just magically

Michelle: come.

It takes time. Exactly. Exactly. Um, here is why I think specific smaller groups are performing better. And again, I think we're gonna start to. See this, like some of what I'm sharing with you are is also LinkedIn with my prediction. So it's what I'm seeing now. Okay. And then rooted in like where I see things going.

Yeah.

Michelle: Um, so it's not based on like. You know, just pulling stuff out of thin air here, it's like, no, this tends to happen.

Right?

Michelle: Because we are seeing the rise of AI and because in our industry we are in, I've heard some people call it the antitrust era, where it's like trust is low. Mm. Particularly in the coaching industry.

Yeah. A lot of pe and I don't say this to discourage anyone. You guys, there's so much opportunity. I really want you to take that away from this interview, and I'm happy to share more on that. Because I have people buying at a higher rate this year than they have maybe even last year. But what's happening is that you have a more sophisticated market, right?

So I, you know, remember the pre 2020 era where it was like coaching was. Still very new.

Yeah.

Michelle: I still, I still don't think we've, by any means, like hit the pinnacle of that. I think coaching is starting to become more mainstream, but still isn't quite yet. Yeah. Um, however, in 2020, a lot changed. A lot of people came on into the market and what happened is the market became more saturated.

People were buying stuff right and left. Mm-hmm. Because they had the disposable income given what was going on. Right. And you have a more sophisticated market now that is probably a bit jaded, right. If we're honest, where they've invested in a lot of things. Um, and I'm always very careful to like, when I have this conversation, because you.

It's easy to be like, I invested in all the things and didn't get any results. I don't know. Those aren't my people. Like my people are like, yeah, it's been a mixed bag, but like I also know that when I make investments, like I, it's up to me and maybe some of the things I invested in weren't that great to begin with 'cause 'cause of what the decision I made.

So I don't want this to turn into like. Everybody sucks kind of thing. That's not what I'm saying, but I think that a lot of people have been more sophisticated where they maybe invested in something and it didn't quite meet the expectations or it's like, Hmm, I don't know that I made the best decision there.

And so what's happened now is you have a market that's more sophisticated. That is also more discerning. Mm-hmm. And people are slower to buy. Yes. What PE it used to be in 2020 and I don't know that this was ever a good thing. I think it was always gonna turn back around. Right, right. Yeah. I think 2020 was such a weird, it, it wasn't even like, it was devoid of reality.

Let's just be honest. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And people are just

like, take my money and I wanna, like, you never just like blink and be like, did we live 20, 25 years ago? Like, did all that ever happen? Like, did that that actually happen and Natalie happen?

Patti: All of us did. Like it's such a weak period. Like we all went through so

Michelle: much like Yeah, it is crazy to think about.

Right. So it was not a realistic, like if you came into the market, then you came in at a weird time, right? Yeah. So what's happening now is it's kind, this is kind of always the way it's been. You know, it used to be that you could throw out like some vague message about, you know, a course or something you were selling and people would just buy.

Right now though, when you're more discerning, what are you looking for? You're looking for specificity.

You

Michelle: wanna know that the person, you're, especially with coaching, right? Yeah. So obviously I'm gonna use myself as an example here, but this can apply to anybody, be it service providers, you know, experts, whatever.

Um, people want to know that, like you can help them because you've lived it, right? Or because you are so specific about who you're serving and the problem that you can solve for. Yeah. That's why specificity is working in messaging and marketing and in Facebook groups. Mm-hmm. So instead of this high volume of.

Like random people. It's like no smaller groups that are specific around the topic and that it's like relevant to the right person. You're gonna bring in more qualified people. It might not be hundreds of thousands of of people, but if you have highly qualified people and a business model that makes sense for where you're at, which I think for a lot of your listeners probably is not the like high volume, I need a million people to buy kind of thing.

Then it actually works in your favor and you don't need to worry about that.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. And I, and I like the point on the trust, which is, I think that's a big key and yeah, it's, it's definitely, I would say encompassing all online business that, right. We all went through this and, and coaches were a part of that, all of us.

Right. So I saw that in hiring for my agency, right. So it was before. Um, 2020, it was a lot easier to hire people and they had qualifications and all this stuff. And then 2020, all these VAs flooded into the market because what we do, we're at home. We're trying to figure out. Yes, exactly. And so all of a sudden I was like, holy shit, how do I, right like to, like the, the.

It was harder to vet. Yes. And so, yes. You also now have everybody coming on who are like, okay, I need to figure out how to make money now while I'm sitting at home. And so they're learning skills, they're wanting to hire coaches and there's more people coming on and being like, well, I've done this. I can be a coach on this.

And so again, not saying not to trust people, but yeah, it, there was absolutely. Just, it was flooded and so it was very hard when you've not purchased in that way and you've not been in that experience to know what to look for exactly, to find somebody who has the expertise that you're seeking, who can do the transformation with you or give you the result that you're hoping for.

You don't know what questions to ask. And so we are at a point now where people have learned some of those lessons, and yes, sometimes they've purchased from people where they're like, wow, that wasn't what I was hoping for. I didn't get what I wanted or I, I need something different myself. I didn't know how I learned best, and now I've learned how to learn best, and so there's a lot of those things that come into that now and yes.

It is that, not that people aren't spending, but that they are way, way more discerning and, and I think that's a good thing. I actually

Michelle: think discernment. I mean, discernment is a good thing. We do want discernment in our businesses, don't we? I mean, I think that that is a good thing. I am actually like.

Uplifted by that, because I don't want anyone to just buy from me. Like that's not what, I'm not in this business. People to buy. Yeah. I wanna help my

Patti: people, the people that Yeah, a hundred percent. And when you have the right person that I'm gonna successful with.

Michelle: Exactly. Like when you have the right person matched with you, it's such a beautiful thing when you don't, it is very hard.

Yeah. And we do the best that we can. Right. But I think discernment is good and I think that we, you know, we need to stop making that a bad thing. I also think the type of offers people are buying. I got some thoughts on that. 'cause I'm seeing some stuff like I think people may be more discerning, but I think they're more willing to spend more to get, you know, higher touch some more personalized.

It doesn't mean courses and memberships aren't selling, that's what I'm saying. But like I think now if you're selling a course, you have to be very clear about how is this different than what you could go get from AI like that. Now you have that layer in there, right? Mm. Yeah. I'm actually seeing an uptick in people wanting more support from me and being willing to pay higher prices.

I have matched what I made last year at the point that we're recording this, so we're not even halfway through the year with half the amount of clients. So that should tell you something. Right? Right. So while buyers are more discerning. There is absolutely a market for them investing at even higher levels.

It's just they want something that's a little bit different, which I think is normal. We're gonna see that shift too. Like we just have to be prepared for shifts. Right? Right. So I think that's important to note. And again, if you're selling a course or you're selling something that is more passive, okay, no problem.

But then how are you gonna differentiate yourself and build that trust? I mean, I saw someone selling a course, she did an amazing job selling it. Totally like. Rocked the launch. Well part of the marketing was her giving people access to like one of the initial modules. Mm. That built insane trust. So like there's ways to do this with whatever business model you have.

I'm selling a $97 kind of fun offer right now that I'm doing for the summer where people get to watch me fill my coaching wait list 'cause I'm booked out right now, fill my coaching wait list for the next 30 days. They're gonna watch me and I'm gonna like show the good. The bad, like everything. And it's like, I didn't know what to expect, Patty, when I put that out there.

Yeah. People are jumping on it and I really think it's that hunger for transparency. Yes. And listen, everybody who listens to this podcast is amazing at what they do, so there's no, there's no like smoke and mirrors here. Yeah. I think we just have to, and I think this is why my Facebook community has done so well and creating a community like that.

And I do think Facebook has its advantages. Yeah, because people can see that transparency. They know who they're buying from and that is how we're navigating the changes in the market. And I think it's a good thing because if you can do that now, guess what? The market's gonna change and it'll be back to a certain level again.

And you'll, you'll always be able to win. Yeah, right. You'll always be able to succeed. And you know, we can't control a lot in life, but if we can control that, I think that's a good thing.

Patti: And there's a couple points that, that you touched on that I was just writing down to, to come back to. So one is that transparency and when I'm in groups, the ones that I find have the most engagement are the most successful are what you're saying.

And people who, like you, see who's running that and they're, they're not trying to pretend they're perfect and have all the things and like they're showing up as the, the human they are. Who is learning as they go. And that is, that resonates so much more with people. And so I, and I think so I really agree with what you're saying there because that is what we want.

I mean, that's what, and, and what a lot of like my people want, which is why I do this. And I show up as myself because I'm like. You know, shit happens and business happens and life happens and it is just a part of it. And to pretend that everything's perfect is not being honest with the successes that I do share.

So you need to see, when I stumble, you need to see the things where I'm like, whoa, that didn't work. You know, like so that when. You see the things that did work, you can appreciate it and also see how it's relevant to your own journey and feel like, oh, okay, well I, I had a stumble, but hey, I see all these other people that I follow having stumbles and still being successful.

Right? So I think that that's a big part of the transparency. And the other thing is that kind of going back to talking about 2020 and kind of the influx of things is that. For those of us who were in business for years before that, we already kind of understood that business isn't super easy all the time and that there's an ebb flow in business.

But, but for people who were just entering kind of the, the world, the, the business world, at that point, they just saw like, holy crap, look at all this money to be had and these people

Michelle: who will buy. I think it was harder for them. Yeah. I really do think I'm, I'm thankful I didn't. And I'm not saying that to discourage anyone, but like I do think it set different expectations.

That's I'm saying exactly.

Patti: Is that they weren't, they didn't understand from that point because now that we're back to, yeah, it is normal even though that wasn't, but it is normal that businesses and the market Yes. Ebb and flow and that, that there are periods where you're like. Do, do crickets. And then there are periods where you're like,

Michelle: all right, I don't have enough when I'm booked out, and I'm crazy.

Like, I love that you're normalizing this, Patty. I think so many people need to

Patti: normalize

Michelle: it. I really do.

Patti: Yeah. And so I think a lot of the people that came in at that point, they're feeling really discouraged right now because they're like, whoa, what is happening? And it's like, oh, this is normal. It's uncomfortable.

Mm. But it's normal. And so, mm-hmm. That's a big lesson that a lot of those people who were just coming in then were, are experiencing now and, and it's kind of, and I don't mean this in a negative way, but it's sort of the make or break for a lot of like, are you a sustainable long-term business or were you riding the coattails of the opportunity that was happening then, which is okay also.

So

Michelle: absolutely. It'll show you where you need to be and there's no right or wrong, and I love that you're normalizing this. I mean, I am just like, yes, Patty, I feel exactly the same way as you. Were kindred spirits here because yeah, I think that, and I think people need more of that, you know, again, it's not the sexy stuff, but I don't think the sexy stuff is selling the way that it used to.

Right. I think what's actually sexy now is doing what you just said. Being willing to share all parts of your story, including the parts where you failed, that failed. That's something I put quotes around that because it's not really true failure, but like that's something AI chat, GPT can't, can't replicate.

It really can't actually. So like anybody who's worried about AI or who's like, how do I stand out? I think what you just shared is so key.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's always going to be, we're always going to connect with people more than we are with Yep. With robots, not all of us. Some of us are like, Hey, robot, be my best friend.

That's great. That's scary.

But often I robot, I robot has been on TV a lot lately and I'm like, I don't think I could watch this right now.

Patti: You too real.

Yeah.

Patti: Um, yeah. But there's, you know, and, and yeah, talking about ai, it's a whole other thing of like, yes, there's. There's scariness that comes with that.

But man, the opportunities that come with, I really think we should focus on the opportunity also. Also incredible. And what it can do for you and your business. And I mean, and. There's this part of it. I was doing my monthly analytics and I was like, holy shit, I've gotten some leads from chat, GPT, like some, like I'm getting some people that are coming to my website from chat.

That's how you, you know, you've made it right. And I was like, I love that. Alright, that's cool. Alright, thanks robot. If you're gonna be here, then I'd rather

you send me some leads. Yeah. Love that. That's so cool. So

Patti: there's, there's different ways to look at it in different layers with that. So, yeah. But, so going back to Facebook groups, right?

So, so what are some mistakes or challenges that you are seeing coaches and business owners make inside of their Facebook groups that keeps getting them stuck? Because you're saying, but the way that I show up in my Facebook group, this is the, this is the gold, right? Yes. This is why it's different. Yes.

So talk to me about that.

Michelle: Okay. Well the first piece I'll go to before I talk about like the specific things that I'm sharing and, and all of that Yeah. Is, you know, the, the level of commitment isn't there. I think that they've, that it's like a conditional commitment. It's like I'm only gonna be committed to my Facebook group if group, if it's producing results, but my group produces results because I am so committed to it.

Mm-hmm. And

Michelle: that's just like anything, right. So I think checking in with the commitment piece of that is really important. I see a lot of people kind of having that conditional commitment and then wondering why the consistency isn't there. I also think, um, there's this need to like. How do I wanna say it?

Seek validation from your group

before

Michelle: you like show up fully. It's like, oh, well if my group gets engagement, then that means like I'm validated. Or if somebody like almost expecting your audience to show up for you instead of you showing up for your audience. Oh, that's interesting. Mm-hmm. So like. I'm only gonna go live when I know people will watch, or like I need to have a certain level of engagement for me to pour into my group.

And, um, that's all conditional. Right? Right. So I think it goes back to the same thing. So those are two things I think trip people up before they even really like, have a system in the group of what they're sharing because it's like, well I'll share during the good times, but it's like, it's like, it's like the look at the relationship you have with your group, right.

As if it were a relationship with a person. Right. Is it like. I'm only gonna, you know, show up during the good times. I mean, that's not much of a relationship. So I do think that the relationship that I have with my group as a strategy has definitely benefited me, and I see that as a mistake that I think other group owners are making.

But it's an easy one to fix. You can recommit, by the way, I have to recommit to my group all the time. It is like a relationship, it's like a marriage. I don't wake up every day being like, I'm so excited about my marriage. Right? Like, I'm so in love. Perfect. In sunshine and res. It's like, no. With any relationship, you have to recommit right to the other person if you wanna go the distance.

Right? Right. Same thing with the strategy. Now, it doesn't mean I'll never change strategies or to be blind. Right. Follow things blindly. You always have to track the data, but I think that's one of the biggest things I see for a lot of people now. Yeah.

In

Michelle: terms of what I share in the group. That's different than what other people are doing.

Other people are not showing up like the boss. They're making it a free for all. I have been hearing, and I actually have heard this from polling my group, so this is rooted in some feedback, is that people are tired of the groups that are just like promo filled. Like oh yeah, it may have worked at one point and I actually at one point my group was promo and uh, we stopped that because it wasn't offering value in the feed.

It's like you have to offer value in the feed for people to keep coming back to your group. Right, right. It can't be, I just get new people in all the time. The success of your group rests on can you get the members who are in there to keep coming back, right. And to seek you out, because then it doesn't matter what the algorithm is doing, right?

Mm-hmm.

Michelle: The problem is that they're not gonna do that unless it offers value. We always, even if a group is free, right? For free group, it's like you have to offer value. So what a lot of people do is they, they market it based on like. Promo and anybody can promo and you get in there and it just doesn't feel like a conversation.

It's not though we have actually Right. It's not, we, I, I heard from my members that they feel like there are very few groups where they can actually have authentic networking and conversation. Yeah. So, I mean, we've already did that Well, but I made some changes even at the beginning of this year to make that even more of a thing.

We hosted a networking event. I, I wanted to do it month. I have not been good about that. I'll have to like figure out what that looks like for me. But I did host a networking event at the beginning of the year and people ate that up because they're craving that so much. So, you know, my group does that.

And also sells. And I do that by, in the group. Yes. Engaging with people, offering networking opportunities, but creating what I call trust driven content. Mm-hmm. So content that is built on a relationship, a conversation. I'm sharing the good moments, I'm sharing the tough moments, I'm challenging their thinking.

I'm offering my perspective as a coach. So it feels like a conversation, but what it's doing is it's actually selling people on me. And it feels so much better. Right? Right. So it's like you can do both. Like I feel like people either feel like you have to just be promoting all the time in your group, all promo everybody or nothing at all.

And it's super strict. Like it, there's gotta be a happy medium. And I think we're starting to get there. Yeah. And I think the desire is there as well. I also think what makes me different is I'm promoting what's happening in the group versus the group itself. A lot of group owners will say like, I have a free group.

Come join. Well, that would be the equivalent of saying, I have a free email newsletter. Boring. Nobody wants that. Right, right, right, right. What is the purpose of that? We have to be, yeah, we have to get creative, especially when group, group growth has been more challenging these days, I think we have to get more creative at like, this is what's happening inside of my group, and giving them a compelling reason to join and then to stick around.

And that involves, again, to bring this back full circle, the commitment on your end. And those are the things that I don't see other group members doing or group owners doing, that I think are creating sort of this like. This group that feels like a chore. Yeah. Like I'm pouring in, but it's not producing anything and it feels like just another thing on my to-do list.

I don't want that for anybody. Right. If it feels like that, I think a reevaluation is definitely needed and hopefully what I'm sharing here will help you kind of do that. Reeval.

Patti: Yeah, and I think what's important to remember, and this is something that for years, whenever anybody, any of my clients have said, oh, I'm thinking about starting a group or a membership as I'm like.

Okay. I wanna start by saying that shit is hard. It, let's be clear. It is hard. It's hard. Running a group is really hard and it is because, and and hard in the sense of you do have to have that commitment. You do have to have that consistency. You do. It takes a lot of work. Yep. To show up regularly whether or not people are engaging.

Yep. And to make sure that you are reading comments when people do and you are moderating it as necessary. Mm-hmm. Like it is a, a lot of work. And so I think that. What, what I see happens in a lot of groups is you go in there and in the beginning it's like, woo, and it's this fun and great and all these things, and then it just slowly peters out because the people who's running the group guilty done it myself.

A

Michelle: hundred percent

Patti: just was like, Ugh, I'm just burnt out. I'm doing all these other things, and I This is a low, like, it, it's a also a long game, right? So for the success, for you to see something from it. In your business and in addition, I think it's also a long game. Yeah. And so I think anytime we're looking at those long game things, if you're somebody who's looking for really quick and instant success in something, and you're gonna see numbers right away, groups are not going to be

Michelle: organic.

I mean, organic marketing Right? It, it's a trade off, right? Yeah. It's like you either invest the time and you have to love it and recommit to it. Yeah. Or you're gonna be paying money. I mean, there's no perfect system here, right.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. It's networking. I mean, it's long like networking. Yeah, of course.

Long term. It's long term. It's networking. The same as if you go on to Instagram tomorrow and start posting a few things, you're not magically gonna get a thousand followers and all this stuff. Like it takes time. You

Michelle: have to plant seeds, but it actually takes shorter time than if you keep trying to find the one thing.

It's like you could actually waste all your time doing that than just committing. Committing is still faster. Yeah. Even though you're playing the long game. Yeah. You know?

Patti: Yeah, absolutely. And, and the, the other piece too that you've mentioned is, you know, when you're sharing enough value, kind of the algorithms don't matter as much.

And, and I, I really, I've not thought of it that way before, but I see myself, like if I go on Facebook and I think, oh, I haven't heard from this group in a while, and I go in. And they never showed up in my feed, but I think about them. I care about them. Mm-hmm. And so I'm going and seeking them out. I am going to check in on that group because I've received value from them and that's important to me.

And so that's exactly, that group has done what you're saying. They've stayed front of mind from me. Whether or not I see a post from them in my feed, I'm going and finding them because that's what I want. And I know. Enjoy whatever I experience in that group.

Michelle: That's why relationships will never die.

Relationships will outlive any trend.

Yes,

Michelle: and I think we're seeing a return to relationships from people and business owners who didn't prioritize them, who maybe prioritize the automated funnels and stuff. I mean, you see these big name business owners like Kelly Roach, right? Would be one example. I mean, these eight figure nine figure business owners, going back to relationships and prioritizing groups and prioritizing relationships and prioritizing the things that cannot be automated.

Right. You know, back to basics in a way. Yeah. And if you've been using basics or if you've been prioritizing relationships, you are actually ahead of the game.

Patti: Yeah.

Michelle: And that's good news because the best clients I've had are the ones who came from those deep relationships.

Patti: Yeah. You

Michelle: know, I'm not saying that that's the only way, but in our rush to automate everything, there was a loss there that I think is now.

Kind of we're, we're seeing a return to.

Patti: I agree with that. I agree with that. Because also when we talk about automation with that, right? I mean, how many, like, I have a group that I was, I kind of was handed, that's a local networking group that I'm like, but you gotta get yourself together and like, I need to do a networking.

And I know, I know. So I do have just some like posts that are going weekly that, but that's not gonna do anything. And that's, you know, I get a little bit here and there, but it's just to keep some visibility while I get my ducks in a row and figure out what am I gonna do with this group and how am I gonna be successful in this?

Um, but. I think the rise of being able to schedule. 'cause you couldn't, for a long time when groups first came out, you couldn't schedule posts in groups. So you had to show up live and you had to be organic, but then all of a sudden you could schedule. I know. I like forgot about that by

the way. When you brought that up, I'm like, when was that shift?

Yeah, I totally forgot because we've been able to schedule for so long, but yeah, that was wild.

Patti: Yeah. And so you can still schedule, so when you're using, you know, schedulers to either natively in Facebook or something else to schedule into a group, you know, ideally you're, you're just lose or, or not, ideally you're losing.

Mm-hmm. The organic interaction that comes with that. Yes. 'cause you're checked out, you're just letting something go and saying, well, that's engagement. There's something posted in there, so people are gonna do it. Right. So the difference there, so which kind of leads me to, um, you know, so for people who are feeling kind of the lack of engagement in their group, and they're like, okay, I hear what you're saying, Michelle.

I, I get it. What is the first step that I can take to start? Reinvigorating my group or starting my group in a way to like get it going and let's move towards this other direction.

Michelle: The word you just said serving. Mm. If it's, I need to reengage my group so I can get something from them, it's gonna be really hard to do.

Because you're in Get energy, right? The words you said serve, that's how you do it. And I'll give you a real time example. Well, not a real time, a real life example that happened two years ago, that's not real time. Um, two years ago. And we go through so many fluctuations with engagement. I'll also just say that like you can spend so much time worrying about it and to take up like all your time.

Yeah.

Michelle: Um, but I know people wanna hear what I would recommend. So here's what I'm gonna say. Two years ago. It was around February, I think it was February of 2023. Um, we just were like, I don't know. I had been very disengaged from my group. I had some stuff going on. Like, I don't know, I was going through like a disengaged season, or at least I felt disengaged.

And I remember having a conversation with my coach and just like really sitting with, how can I just serve the heck out of 'em and not even worry right? About how much money I'm making.

Mm.

Michelle: And as soon as I asked myself that question, an idea came to mind. I was like, well, right now. How can I serve them?

The answer was, well, right now a lot of them are feeling like it's slow to get clients or they're hearing this message of like, it's hard to get clients.

Yeah.

Michelle: What if I did a 30 days to new clients? Um, challenge completely free. There's no opt-ins. It's just for the group members and every day I go live and I give them a practical strategy they can use.

To go out and get clients in 60 minutes a day or less. Mm.

And I was

Michelle: so excited about it. 'cause I had zero attachment. I wasn't gonna sell anything. Nothing.

Yeah.

Michelle: Well, the group blew up. I like put up a post that was like, who would be interested in me doing this? And I felt excited about it. That's why the post blew up and the engagements skyrocketed that entire month.

I had so many amazing conversations. I didn't get a client directly from that, but I got all these leads that then turned into clients. So there was a ripple effect there as well. Yeah. So I would, and now we've turned it into, um, a lead magnet. We will start charging for it at some point, but for now it is free.

Um, I. Just because there's so it's, there's so much in there, right? But

mm-hmm. Like

Michelle: that then turned into something that we ended up using to get more people into the group. Like what a cool opportunity that just kind of came out of, I was like, I'm gonna do this. And then the next day just announced it.

There was no prep. No. But it was like one of the best things. And so I would say to anybody listening, if you feel like engagement is low, like how can you lead first? And serve first. Right? What would that look like for you? And when we focus on service, we put our, our, you know, we, we put our minds in, in their shoes, right?

And think about what they're thinking about right now, which is going to then increase engagement naturally,

Patti: right? Yeah. Think about why are you start, well, and I mean, maybe that's a. Question to think of when you start a group is, why are you doing this? If you're doing it just to sell? Or are you doing it to serve?

And then no. And you know, maybe at some point, of course, of course a lot of our activities are to be successful and to sell. But if we really wanna think about, well, if I'm just gonna start a group to sell, sell, sell, I mean, then you're motives are probably not going to be in a position that are gonna attract people that are going to engage in this group.

You're gonna attract other people that wanna sell, sell, sell. Right? Hundred percent. And so really think about. What your purpose is and why you're there. So I really like kind of looking at it from that perspective. For sure.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think when you said the word serve, I was like that. That's what it is.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. This has been super amazing, super interesting. Um, because I love tech and that's my, my jam. Yep. Do you have Facebook group aside? Yep. Just in your business with yourself, with your clients, do you have any, uh, a, a favorite platform or tool that you use?

Michelle: I mean, it's become my favorite. It was hard when I made the transition, 'cause I made it from Asana, but Clickup

mm-hmm.

Um,

Michelle: yeah, we, and, and Asana still sort of like, has love in my heart because I, I never have been a Trello person, so I was always like the Asana, you're either an Asana or Trello person. Right. Um, and the reason I like it so much is because it really helps me track my leads. I mean, that's also part of why my group has been so successful because I'm tracking leads and I'm tracking who engages and tracking conversations so people feel like, like I can do very personalized follow up.

Right? Yeah. I can tag people and things that would be interesting to them. So while it's an 8,500 member group, it feels very personal. Yeah. Um, Clickup was hard to transition to, but now I feel like we have a really good, like lead tracker in there. So I would say that's a tool for sure. Um, and we don't even use like the automated schedulers anymore for stuff like it's all, you know, native, native to Facebook.

Um, I'm trying to think of another tool that has worked really well. I mean, I do love my fathom.

Um, like I

Michelle: know we were joking before this, that my fathom joined and you had to kick it out. I do love it and I'll tell you why I love it because it allows me to analyze, like sales calls and conversations that I have and really like.

Explore ways to improve. Um, and so that's actually been, like, I resisted it for a while. I don't love how it just automatically joins. I have to figure that out. But like, I really do appreciate kind of the, the depth. Like I, I can pull content ideas from conversations that I have with clients. So I would say that's another tech thing that, um, I've really embraced.

Yeah. And you know. We're still riding with active campaign. I know a lot of people, like, they've raised prices, so it's like hard.

Mm-hmm. But at the

Michelle: same time, and by the way, I did negotiate a price with them. A discount for anybody who's listening is like, I don't wanna leave active campaign. Like see what they can do.

Like push a little bit. Mm-hmm. And you'll be surprised.

But, um,

Michelle: the automations and not automations. It's actually not even the automations, it's the tagging and being able to like, yeah. Follow up with people like this $97 offer that I'm, that I'm using. Yeah. Right. Or that I'm selling. We tag everybody who clicks the sales page and doesn't buy.

And I sent just a really casual email yesterday where I like admitted. I was like, yeah, we're tracking you. That's how you create demand. Like, I'm not gonna lie, right? But I, but here's what I wanna do. And it was, and I, we sent it out to, I think it was 45 people and one person replied yesterday and was like, yeah, I am interested da da.

Like, I'll take it. Right. So the ability to be able to use that kind of stuff to then further the personalization. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Is what's working really well for me right now. And that's the balance of automation and relationship building.

Patti: Yeah. I was just talking to somebody on my team today because I have a client who's.

Leaving, trying to leave where she's at. And we're just like, I love active campaigns so much. Know that the prices are challenging and I keep looking and I keep looking for alternatives, but man, they have the market. I know cornered on what they have. I know. And there's a reason that they can

Michelle: demand these.

That's the reality. And if you ask them to analyze your account and do a usage and everything, they can tell you if there's a better price. I did like have that conversation with them. Was like, I'm thinking about leaving, you know, threw that in there. And they gave me, I said, I don't need this package, but I also don't need this.

And they came up with something in the middle. So I, I realize that is not what's normally happening with a lot of people, but I also think if you push a little bit, I have not found something that, I mean, I know people love ConvertKit too, but I don't know. I just, I It's not as robust. Yeah. Yeah.

Patti: I'm on, I'm on ConvertKit.

I love ConvertKit. Yeah. I went back, 'cause I moved from ConvertKit to active campaign and then when they price hike, I was like, I just can't, and I should, I know, should have talked to them, but I went back and, and it's fine for what I'm doing right now, but it, it's just not comparable when it comes to the level of automation, especially the way that, right.

It really is. It really is. So, um, yeah.

Michelle: And of course, we like use Canva. My assistant uses Canva to like, create things. Um, so I think that's always been helpful. But yeah, I would say those are my go-to. I mean, they're, they're, you know, ones that really support me with the, the lead and the, the lead generation and the personalized, you know, selling and all that.

Like, that's just, that just works so well for what I do. So, you know, until that changes.

Awesome. So

Michelle: I, I tend

to like not wanna get inundated with, with tools either. 'cause I get really overwhelmed. That's fair. Yeah. I'm not a systems and tool person. Yeah, yeah. For people who are like you,

Michelle: like, like thank God for you because I can get overwhelmed really easily.

Yeah. So I try to keep it simple too, but yeah.

Patti: Yeah. I love that. That's great. So this has been super helpful, super amazing. If people want to, uh, work with you or just wanna

Michelle: find you, where can they do that? Since we talked about the Facebook group so much, um, market Like A Boss is the name of the Facebook group.

And the reason being that it's all about you marketing like a boss and being in control of signing clients. That's what I want for you. So if you are curious about what it looks like to run a Facebook group in today's world, if you actually do want genuine, authentic community and relationship building like we've been talking about, I would love to have you join the group.

Um. I know you have the link, so I'm sure you'll share it. But, um, yeah, that's, I I would say come in, come in that group. I'd love to see you. I also have a podcast called Market like a Boss, where I talk about like different marketing strategies and things that I'm seeing in the industry. So if this conversation interested you, there's definitely more where that came from.

Patti: Perfect, and I'll have all of that in the show notes as well. So thank you so much, Michelle. This has been so awesome and I'm super excited to share it.

Michelle: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Patti: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Biz Magic Podcast. Like most small businesses and podcasts, we rely heavily on word of mouth.

So if you like what you heard today or in any episode, please share with your friends and colleagues. And rate, subscribe and comment on your favorite podcast platform. Till next time, cheers to your magical biz success.