Episode 3: Kurt Dennis, David Lane discuss Dennis's lawsuit against DPS and more

Transcript

Alan Gottlieb: 0:08

Hello, everyone. Today we have our first podcast with guests, and I'm honored to have Kurt Dennis, the former principal of McAuliffe International School, and his attorney David Lane, an esteemed defense and civil rights lawyer from the area, on the podcast. I'm going to start off by reading a little intro to the whole situation involving Kurt Dennis and his firing in 2023, and then we're going to get into some questions with these two gentlemen. Alexis and I are just going to freewheel the questions, and so here goes the intro. On March 24th, 2023, Kurt Dennis, then a principal of McAuliffe International School in Denver's Park Hill neighborhood, decided to speak to a reporter for Nine News about safety concerns at his school. McAuliffe was a high performing, in demand, diverse school. Dennis was a highly regarded veteran principal, widely considered one of the top building leaders in the district. His decision to speak to a reporter occurred the day after a student at nearby East High School had shot and seriously wounded two deans during a security pat down. Dennis faced a similar situation at his school, where a student charged with serious violent crimes was being patted down daily by school staff who had received no training in this technique. Frustrated by the district's lack of response to his pleas for intervention, Dennis decided to air his concerns publicly on a local TV newscast. What happened next is some A somewhat long and definitely sorted story that I will summarize only briefly here. At the beginning of the Fourth of July weekend that year, presumably hoping to avoid undue media attention, Denver Public Schools fired Kurt Dennis. The stated reasons for his firing were divulging confidential student information and a pattern of administrative actions that had a disparate impact on students with disabilities and students of color. Dennis's attorney David Lane is a prominent civil rights attorney and partner at Kilmer Lane LLP in Denver, Colorado. Lane with over four decades of legal experience has represented clients in numerous high profile cases specializing in civil rights litigation and criminal defense and has argued before the United States Supreme Court. Lane filed a federal lawsuit against the district and six school board members in September 2023, claiming among other things that Dennis's First Amendment rights were violated and that he was defamed by inflammatory statements made by several board members. BPS filed a motion to dismiss, which after a long delay, a judge rejected late last year. So the case moves forward. So we have David and Kurt here, and we're going to ask them a few questions. And I wanted to start, David, by asking you a question, very straightforward, basic question, which is, why did you decide to take on this case?

David Lane: 2:40

We are a civil rights law firm, and before we take any case, we have to do some investigation. And as you said in your introduction, Kurt is a very well respected, highly effective administrator with the Denver Public Schools system. I saw the broadcast where he talked about the Denver Public Schools Insane policy of allowing kids who are charged with extremely violent crimes such as attempted murder with a gun to go to school in person instead of learn remotely while charges are pending He gave an interview to Nine News, outlining why this is a really unsafe policy, as was illustrated by two people getting shot at East High School implementing this crazy policy. And very, almost immediately the school board started retaliating against him, trumping up charges that he's somehow calling him a racist, with absolutely no evidence of that anywhere, making up charges that he, oh, he's imprisoning students of color in de escalation rooms when they're having emotional difficulties. All these things were proven to be demonstrably false. The only reason that possibly exists for the board going after him like this was they did not like the message he gave to 9news. We are here to teach government officials that the constitution applies to even them. And people have first amendment free speech rights, and that includes Kurt Dennis, and you cannot punish someone as a government agency. When somebody exercises their First Amendment rights in a way that you may not be a big fan of. We filed the lawsuit.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 4:35

Thanks.

Alan Gottlieb: 4:35

That makes the framing, your framing makes this seem especially timely given where we are in the country right now. But Alexis had a question for Kurt.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 4:43

Yeah, thanks so much, David. Kurt let's hear your side of this. We obviously heard David's introduction about why he went after this, but Kurt, can you share why you went to Nine News in the first place, including the details about how serious the alleged offenses were committed by the student in question?

Kurt Dennis: 5:00

Yes. Thank you, Alexis. So we have been dealing with the situation with the student for roughly three months. We've been informed late in 2022 that the student with several other individuals as part of a gang had allegedly robbed a gun store in Inglewood, Colorado, stealing weapons with which they were found several days later in the community. Including body armor and automatic automatic rifles. And so we were notified of this by the district attorney's office, Denver County. And we put together following district policy, what's called a threat assessment and then a safety plan. And so when you do a threat assessment, you determine, how much of a risk is this student posed to the student staff population in your school. And then based on the level of threat, you put together a safety plan for which you are to follow to make sure that the student can be educated safely in person while everyone in their presence is safe as well. And in Denver Public Schools, what that normally means with the safety plan is that you are to conduct the search of the student when they arrived, their report to the office. Immediately upon arrival in the morning, you're to conduct a search of their possessions and their person. In addition to doing a pat down. And so we implemented that plan with the student. We have several students in the building on these plans that they're common across the district, unfortunately. And we move forward. The follow up communication that we got from the district attorney's office was, I think, roughly a month later, in which they informed us that our students who had received nine additional felony charges including attempted murder. And possession of deadly illegal possession of a deadly firearm. And obviously this was a significant concern to us because now not only did we have a student who demonstrated the ability to to possess a weapon. But now they also demonstrated the ability to actually use that weapon against another human being with the intent of killing them. So at that point my team and I got together and we're like, we can't have this. This is beyond the scope of something that we can manage at our school. We went to the district with our concerns and we were directed to basically conduct a second threat assessment. So basically to go back and do the same process that we had done previously in light of the new charges. And we did the threat assessment with the district official my mental health team, my administrative team, my safety team and myself. And as we did the threat assessment, The conclusion that we came to was that we were not capable of safely educating the student in person at, in our building. And this was under the advisement of a Denver police detective. She was a youth violence coordinator for DPD. And in this meeting, she said to us and to the district official that under no circumstance is this student to return to a school and in Denver until this is resolved, the history of violence that the student had had demonstrated and several other cases that she was aware of that we weren't aware of, but the student was a person of interest in given that information, she said, under no circumstance should the student return to your school? And yet, despite that advisement the district said. The student will return. You need to put together a safety plan. And we said we can't. We don't have the ability to put together a plan that keeps everyone safe. And we're not going to do this. And eventually they prevailed upon us that this is going to happen. And we complied. After several weeks of resistance and ultimately did what the district asked us to do for several weeks. And that was until the incident at East High School where the deans were shot and the student who was being searched and who shot the two deans took his own life. And to take Anderson's own admission. The district played, unfortunately played a role in that and that they failed the student and It was shocking. I think to everyone in the community and to those of us that work in the district that this had happened. And I think the community especially was shocked to know that kids were being patted down and searched every day throughout the district at schools because of this policy. So that's why I spoke out. I felt at that point I had no choice. I had to come forward because it wasn't right. And the community and taxpayers needed to know that this is what was happening.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 9:48

Thank you so much for providing that background, and I certainly agree that it did send shockwaves throughout the district, particularly with parents and speaking as a parent myself, I would like to believe that this is a one off case, this is an extreme case that happened at East and that what was happening at McAuliffe is something that again, is a one off but I would like to hear having spoken to your peers, other middle school teacher, other middle school principals, other high school principals, is this something that you've heard from your peers they're also struggling with and to what extent is this a problem or was this a problem within DPS?

Kurt Dennis: 10:23

Sure. It's pervasive throughout the district. Especially at the secondary levels of middle school and high school. I think the most, one of the most egregious parts of this is that, not only we're being asked to do this, but there was no training on how to do it properly. No school administrator that I was aware of and definitely not myself or anyone on my team. was instructed on how to conduct a proper search or pat down. Nor were we told to do. If you find a gun, what do you do? How do you respond to that in finding a gun in a student's possession is how do you secure that weapon safely and secure it so that it can't be used against you or anyone else? And just the fact that, educators, a position where they're basically serving as law enforcement officials in schools I thought was incredibly unfair and unreasonable. And I think that talk to any district principal that's willing to speak out publicly about this issue is 100 percent agreement that it's not in the best interest of anyone or the kids nor the adults.

Alan Gottlieb: 11:22

Thanks, Kurt. I'm just curious, given the the atmosphere that exists in DPS these days and has for a few years now, how concerned were you or how aware, cognizant were you that doing this, and I mean by this going to 9 News, was putting your job on the line?

Kurt Dennis: 11:40

I was very aware I had. I had been a principal in the district for a decade prior and had the pleasure of working under, Tom Bursberg and Susana Cordova as leaders and had a wonderful experience. And there was a palpable shift in the district's culture. The last few years that I worked in DPS and it was a culture where I knew that in speaking out and that I was putting my career at risk and that was Something that I was willing to accept. Fortunately for me, I was at the end of my career. Financially, I was in a position where if I did lose my job, my family and I myself, we'd be okay. And it was something that I was willing to do because I felt that it was important. And it wasn't shocking to me that had a week after I spoke out that I received an email from or a letter from the district outlining all the alleged inappropriate actions that had taken place over the last. 12 years of my career in the district and they basically were already laying the grounds for a case to, to dismiss me within seven days of my appearance on nine news. And, at that point, it was a blessing for me, but somehow David Lane found me and reached out and said, Hey, I'm willing to have your back on this. And he told the district, don't mess with Kurt and they chose to and here we are.

Alan Gottlieb: 13:03

Yeah. And I'm no lawyer, but I think you have a pretty strong case. I, another thing I wanted to ask you about was part of, in part of all of this controversy and the, the language that was used by some board members, like they use the de escalation room, they said incarceration room and all of this, one of the, one of the areas of controversy around that I've never really talked to you or anybody else who was right involved. in and I'm curious about is you put a lock on that door for a while and then removed it. And it's clear why you did it, I think, but if you could describe that and then just explain why you did that in, in, in retrospect, is that something you wish you hadn't done or do you stand by that decision as well?

Kurt Dennis: 13:40

Sure. I can't, I don't want to get too philosophical here, Joseph Stalin's chief of police said, show me the man, I'll show you the crime. And basically what DPS does with school administrators that they're not pleased with is that they can go back through, their history and they will find inevitably something. That they're going to use against that individual to justify getting rid of them for whatever reason and for my particular situation, we have what's called an affective needs center program at our school. It's a program that specializes in serving students with severe disabilities around their emotions and behaviors and the. Purpose of a de escalation room is that when one of these students has a violent outburst that's directed at other students staff members, or maybe even sometimes themselves that there is a plan for how you will respond. And that plan is written up into the student's individualized education plan. And historically, we never had the need for a de escalation room. We never had incidents of violence that required that level of response. However, unfortunately, that school year, we had two students that required that level of service. And these plans are written in concert with district officials from the Department of Special Education and with the parents. So everyone's at the table. And everyone has a voice in the creation of the plan and the implementation of the plan. So everything that we did related to the violent acts by a student was done in compliance under the directive of their IEP with the parent's full knowledge and with the school district's full knowledge as well. The de escalation room itself. I invited district officials out to view it to give me guidance and feedback on how it should look. As I stated before, we've never had one previously. So I sought out their input on its creation and what it was to look like. And the district provided me with a list of criteria in writing that's in alignment with board policy. And I received their feedback and at no time did anyone from the district question the existence of the room or how it was being. It used or why it was being used. And we continue to use past that meeting. Only after I spoke out to nine news, did this suddenly become an issue? And I think partly because we had a facility manager who was understandably frustrated, but one of the students, when they became upset, would physically punch holes in the wall. And because of that, it obviously created a huge mess and he was constantly having to repair the walls and patch them. And so he put in a work order with the district asking that they that they come out and that they reinforce the walls so that this wasn't a recurring issue. And when he did that and I do not condone this in any way, or nor approve it in any way, but he called it an incarceration room. And that was his verbiage. It was not appropriate. But that's the word that he used. And that's what DPS grabbed onto. And then they painted this picture of incarceration and racism and discrimination. And, that's what they chose to use as a lever to to end my career with and to disparage my character and destroy my reputation.

Alan Gottlieb: 17:03

So just really quickly to follow up, Kurt, one is just about the lock and why the lock was put on and why the lock was removed. And then also just to clarify for people none of the kids, none of the students that you put in this needed to put in this room that you had plans that allowed you to put in this room included the kid who was charged with the violent felonies that led to your going to Nine News. Those are totally separate. Correct.

Kurt Dennis: 17:23

Correct.

Alan Gottlieb: 17:23

Yeah, correct. Totally separate.

Kurt Dennis: 17:24

Yeah. So the reason I had to put a lock on the door was because one of the students so in order to do it properly, you have to have supervision, right? So no time as a student in a de escalation room unsupervised. And the door to the de escalation room has a window, and you look through the window, and as part of the IEP, the student knows that they are to remain that they have a certain amount of time in which to remain in the room to de escalate and calm down. Before exiting and then doing a debrief with the mental health provider that was present as well. So you would stand at the window and you would have a timer on your phone and you would hold the phone in the window so that students can see how much time they had to calm themselves. And what was happening was, is that the student in the room who, you know, as I'd stated before, I'd been punching holes in the wall where they additionally would come to the door and they would grab the door and they would swing it open violently and try to run out of the room or they would open the door and slam the door violently and repeatedly in the face of our social worker or school psychologist or whoever was supervising the student at that time. And this was a tremendous risk to the student safety and to the safety of the staff member that was doing the supervision, because obviously, if someone's hand or, foot or whatever it might be, it got caught in the door as it was being repeatedly slammed or thrown open and shut it could break, could break somebody's bones. And my response was, in lieu of having a mental health provider standing at a door and having to try to, wrestle with the student to hold it closed. was to put a latch on the door so that the door couldn't be slammed open and shut and that everyone would be safe. And again, at no time was a student unsupervised. When the doors latch shut, there was always an adult standing there. There was no risk of fire danger or anything in that regard that, despite what Director Anderson claimed. So that's why I did what I did. It was the right thing to do to keep people safe. I don't regret doing it. It was not in violation of school board policy in relation to de escalation room usage. So after it was on the room for a week, My social worker came to me and said, Hey, this is working, but I don't feel comfortable when I go into the room to debrief with the student. The incident when they've come down, I don't feel comfortable being in the room with the student, knowing that the door could conceivably. Become latched by mistake and then have the student re escalate and may not have any sort of egress. So at that point, we removed the latch from the door. And like I said, it was for roughly in place for a week. But it's obviously nothing to what the district

Alan Gottlieb: 20:11

described it as being okay. Alexis has the next question, but I just want to say thank you for that very clear explanation, which I don't think I've ever heard. Yeah, all of the time that this has been out there. So it's good to get it out there. Thank you.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 20:23

I completely agree. I didn't realize some of that background context and I certainly appreciate you coming on and sharing that background. Thanks for the

Kurt Dennis: 20:33

opportunity.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 20:33

Of course, David. This next question is for you. The lawsuit claims that Kurt was fired as retaliation for speaking out and that everything else was pretextual given the lawsuit. the sometimes extreme ideology of certain board members at the time. Is this really the case, or were there other motives or was there other motive as well?

David Lane: 20:55

They're going to have to speak to their own motives. I'm not psychic enough to figure out what each individual's motives were. All I know is their actual motive was that we can prove. Is to punish him for his free speech and that's the easy motive. They may have all kinds of psychological issues brewing in those little minds of theirs and The good news is that I get to do depositions on each of them where I have the ability to bring each of them individually into my office for seven and a half hours and grill them and they are going to have to answer my questions or a federal judge will order them to answer my questions. And we'll have more information as we proceed as to what their motives were. But, they can have all kinds of motives and at will employment means you can fire somebody for any reason under the sun or no reason at all. You just can't fire them for an illegal reason. And an illegal reason is retaliating against them because they exercised in free speech. That's the one I want to focus on. And all their other little issues are all their other little issues.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 22:08

Thanks, David.

David Lane: 22:09

Okay.

Alan Gottlieb: 22:09

David, I know you have to leave soon, so I just wanted to jump ahead a little here, Alexis, and ask a couple of questions of him. We have a few more for Kurt, too, but could you just give me, you mentioned the depositions. Do you, I want to know what the status of the suit is. I know there was a very long delay while the judge considered the motion to dismiss, which was denied. So the case moves forward. But if you could just give us an update on the status, if you've got depositions scheduled, when they're going to happen.

David Lane: 22:31

The way this works is that we have now submitted a scheduling order to the other side. And depositions are being set the judge will have a little status conference shortly, approve the schedule that we've set, and then depositions will commence, along with written discovery. We're entitled to see all the emails between these defendants and board members for why this happened, any texts that they have regarding these issues there's gonna be a lot of discovery. And we have to go through that. We'll set the depositions. We will then commence the depositions. They will undoubtedly move for summary judgment, which means, Hey judge, we've gone through all the discovery and Kurt Dennis doesn't have any kind of a case. We will respond and say, yes, we've gone through all the discovery and we have an ironclad airtight case. The judge, if the judge believes that there are questions still remaining for a jury to decide, the motion for summary judgment will be denied and the case will be set for trial. I anticipate that trial won't happen for probably a year and a half or two years.

Alan Gottlieb: 23:40

Wow. Okay. DPS, I would assume at this early stage, hasn't made any overtures about a settlement, but at what point, if that were to happen, would it normally happen in a case like this?

David Lane: 23:49

It just depends on how honestly the lawyers for DPS want to look at the case when you sue the government. Settlement discussions are always a political question. So for the DPS board members, the issue is, are we going to get more votes if we settle with Kurt Dennis or more votes if we fight? And a lot of times they think taxpayers are not going to be happy with us giving away tax dollars to Kurt Dennis. So let's fight because we don't want to politically be the school board that gives away. A school, when you settle with corporate America, it's a money situation. Is it going to cost us more to fight this case or is it going to cost us more to settle this case? And they will go the cheapest route, and here it's the government, so it's a political issue and so it's difficult to predict. I think once we start banging these defendants around pretty hard in depositions, they are going to see the light and say, we really don't want a jury to hear all this, let's settle this case. I

Alan Gottlieb: 24:53

mean, the other consideration, of course, is that by the time you get to the actual setting of dates for trials, Many of the school board members who were involved in this situation may no longer be on the board. Four of them are up for election this November.

David Lane: 25:06

That's already happened. Some of our defendants are no longer on the board. But that's fine. We've sued them and Denver is on the hook and the former school board members or the current school board members who we have named are still on the hook. Just because they're no longer school board members doesn't mean that they're not still defendants.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 25:26

It'll certainly be interesting to see how this plays out in the public, given that three of the four three of the four board members, three of the four seats that are up, excuse me, for election are incumbents. They haven't yet filed as of a couple of days ago, but I certainly would anticipate this question coming up in questions about this coming up, at least in some of the public forums.

Alan Gottlieb: 25:47

Sure, I agree with that. We'll certainly ask him if nobody else does.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 25:51

That's right.

Alan Gottlieb: 25:53

I've got to go. Okay, David, we'll stay on with Kurt for a few minutes. Thank you so much for your time. Thank

David Lane: 25:59

you so much for the invitation. Okay. Programs like this, where you do a deep dive into an issue are incredibly important given the level of ignorance that is running loose in society today. So thank you.

Kurt Dennis: 26:12

Thank you,

David Lane: 26:12

David. Take care.

Kurt Dennis: 26:13

Thanks, David. Take care.

David Lane: 26:14

Kurt, take care.

Alan Gottlieb: 26:19

Okay. We've got Kurt still for a few more minutes and

Kurt Dennis: 26:22

I can stick around as long as you'd like. Okay.

Alan Gottlieb: 26:27

Podcasts have a shelf life probably of about 45 minutes or more, and you probably start to lose people, but I really wanted to ask you a question that I haven't heard anybody ask you and the extent to which you're comfortable answering that, which is a very personal question. How is this? Entire situation affected you and your family. I was, I went back and listened to an Eante Anderson press conference from August of 2023, where he basically said a lot of stuff, but among other things that in his opinion, no district should hire you. That you, and that you are exhibiting all sorts of explicit and implicit racial bias. So I just want to know, that kind of stuff, given your record and your history in the district how has that hit you and your family and how have you dealt with it?

Kurt Dennis: 27:09

Sure. No, thanks for asking. I it's been what now almost 18 months. And, initially summer of 2023, fall of 2023, it was really hard emotionally on, on myself and my family. We've lived in this community for 20 plus years, raised our kids here. My wife is an educator in Denver public schools. My kids attend Denver public schools and it was humiliating and it was hard for them to hear these things being said about me. Obviously it was hard for me to hear those things being said about me. But so there was about a six month period there where just a lot of you know, strain on mental health and emotions that we worked through and I think we're stronger for it today, but around October of that year, that fall, 2023, I, I. Basically applied for new jobs. I was ready to move on with my career. I was done hoping that the situation with DPS could get resolved quickly and and so I started to apply for positions. And, prior to DPS holding their press conferences and making wild allegations and about me being a racist I'd had several superintendents of surrounding school districts reach out to me. With offers of employment and with offers of wanting me to either lead schools in their district or to work in some type of leadership capacity. And once we hit early August, when Director Anderson started making these wild accusations. All those offers and leads dried up and I applied to and David said, he said, Kurt, get out there and apply. Like you've got to apply for jobs. You've got to demonstrate that you are willing to work and that you want to work. And so I did. And I think I applied to. 30 to 35 different positions at surrounding school districts in the, Denver area and didn't get a single offer for one of them, not even an interview. So you can see what it did to my career prospects. And I I had a blessing of. Having a good friend who had gone to graduate school with, who was an educator and in a district north of Denver, and she went to the superintendent and said, Hey, this is what's going on. I vouch for this guy. I've known him, my whole life, and we need him here and to The superintendent's credit, she brought me in, she sat me down she, interviewed me and we talked about everything and she said, you know what happened to you in that school district is abhorrent and it's entirely inappropriate for district leadership and school board members to be acting in this manner and she said we're going to, we're going to take a chance on you. And I've been with them ever since. I hope that they've seen it as a value add and that they are glad that they did take that chance on me. But it's, I was really lucky because no one else was willing to do that for me. So I'm incredibly grateful.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 30:14

Yeah,

Kurt Dennis: 30:17

I think the last thing is just I guess that's it. I'll be done. Thank you.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 30:22

I'm curious to know a couple of days ago, Nine News broke a story that I think, unfortunately, some people in the education community already had known for a little while now that former director Anderson, who you had referenced, is now working in a similar position that he had at North High School. He's now working as a restorative justice coordinator at a middle school in DPS that was met with quite a bit of outrage from from folks in the community. I'm curious to get your perspective on that.

Kurt Dennis: 30:48

Yeah, I think it speaks to the hypocrisy of the district that, you take educators such as myself my assistant principal, Micah Klaver Colleen O'Brien, our executive director Kristen Fry, a community member, whose, you know, people's careers and livelihoods were threatened or ruined by Director Anderson's nonsense we can't work in DPS anymore, and we've been banned from the district, and we'll never have our careers back, and never be able to rejoin our community but T. Anderson can, according to a district investigation, he can solicit or make advances towards a 16 year old student via text message, and Have that be found to be entirely inappropriate and be censured by the school board. And yet he is welcome to work with children in Denver public schools. So why the discrepancy there? Why is, why is that allowed for when we were not found to have harmed any children and yet we're prohibited from working with kids in Denver?

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 31:53

I think that question is one that many parents. Are asking right now as well.

Alan Gottlieb: 31:59

Thanks, Kurt. I just wanted to follow up really quickly with one question and I don't think I have any more. But and that is, are you acting working as are you willing to say what district you're in? And if you're not, that's fine. But are you working in what capacity? Are you working? Are you a principal? A teacher? What are you doing?

Kurt Dennis: 32:13

Yeah. So I'm a school leader again. Last year when they like I said, when they were willing to take a chance on me, it was it was a low level of risk because they hired me as a paraprofessional. Yeah. And so I worked as a paraprofessional in a science classroom at a middle school for the year and and, just to prove myself and, I found it incredibly rewarding, but obviously the financial hit to my family was considerable and, in terms of difference in compensation between being a principal and a para, but At the end of the year, things have gone and was approached by district leadership to say that, Hey, we have a school that could really use your leadership and we'd love for you to be a principal again. So I'm a principal of a K 8 school and have loved it. It's a lot of fun working with younger kids that never had that experience before. So it's been things have turned out well, which is, after a long haul there, it's things are in a good place.

Alan Gottlieb: 33:05

That's great. And are you willing to say what district you're in?

Kurt Dennis: 33:08

No, I, excuse me. I'm trying to keep them out of the limelight. So they're, just been wonderful. It's a small district very community based and it's been a really wonderful experience.

Alan Gottlieb: 33:18

I don't have any more questions Alexis to you.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 33:21

I don't. I really just want to say thank you, Kurt, for coming on. Thanks for sharing your story and continuing to stay in education knowing, parents who have sent their students to McAuliffe and have had you as a principal it's certainly been a loss for DPS and thanks for sharing also where you're, you're back in education, back in a school leadership position. I'm very curious to know how many people have gone from serving as a para one year and then principle the next. So I really appreciate you sticking with with the education in this career.

Kurt Dennis: 33:50

Thank you. Thank you so much. And I appreciate this opportunity. Alexis, you mentioned, previously, or that you hadn't heard my version of events, and I never really had a platform or the opportunity to share my story. And obviously, there's a lot more to share, but it feels really good to have the opportunity to do this. So thank you.

34:09

Well, that's going to do it for this week. Thank you everyone for listening. Thanks to Kurt and David. And on behalf of myself and Alexis, we will see you in a couple of weeks.