Episode 10: Denver school board member John Youngquist addresses allegations leveled against him by Supt. Alex Marrero

Transcript

Alan Gottlieb: 0:08

everybody and welcome to the Board Hawk podcast. We have today with US School Board member and longtime DPS Administrator and educator, John Youngquist, who has been in the news in the last 24 hours because of a S scarless letter that the Superintendent of Denver Public Schools, Alex Murrow, wrote about John to the board President Kerry Olson. Basically demanding that John be punished in all sorts of ways for being a horrible person in all sorts of ways. None of which. As far as I can tell it is true, and I've known John for 25 years. So Marrero is basically saying John has undermined the workplace that he wants Minero's job, that he's trying to destroy Denver public schools in order to build his own power so that he can become superintendent. That's the shorthand for this really unhinged letter that Marrero sent to Carrie Olson. It's also worth noting that this letter was written on April 22nd, which was before the vote to extend Herrero's contract, which John and his fellow board member Kimberly Sia voted against. So how that plays into it is also very interesting. But Alexis and I wanted to have John on just to hear his side of this, to let him tell his story. And we're gonna walk through the seven accusations that Marrero made against John in the letter and let him address each one of them. But John, welcome to the podcast and sorry about the way your name's being dragged through the mud right now.

John Youngquist: 1:30

Alan and Alexis, thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to talk and to share my story around all this. Great. What a week it's been. John, thank you so much for being on. I, before we get into the detail, I just wanna check in on you. How are you doing? It's been quite the news cycle going from the contract and then, getting your name dragged through. Yeah, it has been, it's been an interesting, few days yesterday with news of this letter, coming out. That was a surprise to me. And, how I'm doing is I am, processing what this all means. It seems it removed to some degree, some, because they these seven accusations, like one or two, I could guess and connect to that would be a thought of the superintendent, others, not at all. And so this was very surprising to me as it has ruled out over the course of the last week. But it's been helpful to, to talk with people and to process a little bit and to try and gain a better understanding of, what this means. And just for a little context, it's probably worth pointing out that there's a sort of part two of an ongoing saga because a few months ago, earlier this year, I believe it was still, it was in 2025 John was accused of saying insensitive things to a couple of staff members of the district and was chewed out by his fellow board members for that, which also seemed largely unfounded. Or at least overstated. It feels to me like, not to get political here, but I feel like we've gone back in a time machine five years and we're back in the days, the peak days of cancel culture, and that's what's attempting to be done to you. That basically when things get sticky for somebody, it's easy to fall back on calling somebody. I. A racist or racially insensitive, and it's very hard to refute that. It just, it gets very touchy and sensitive and for whatever reason, Alex Marrero, who is an Afro-Latino man from New York feels threatened by you. And using race as one of the tools seems to just be part of the playbook. And, knowing you as I do, I just don't think that fits the description of the you I know. Alexis, I see your hand over your mouth, so do you anything? No, I just am like I have so many thoughts and just trying to organize them in my brain. Alex is Afro-Latina, but also, recognizing he does have several senior members of his team who are black and you're interacting with some, several senior leaders and you're presumably this is an assumption I'm making as a board member. You have. To interact with the chief of staff with the general counsel. There are other folks within the administration that are maybe doing a policy governance and they all happen to also be black or African American. So to me it's a little bit of this strange thing of if you are just a assert, like being assertive or asking for things and doing your job as a board member and maybe they don't like your tone or they don't like that you're directing questions to them, it's ease. What I worry about is it's very easy to play the race card when it's you're just doing what you're doing in your professional capacity and there's nothing to do with race here. It to me I worry that this goes into this world where oftentimes previous board member ante Anderson, I. Would claim and his supporters would claim anything that was critical of him as anti-black. And so this is very reminiscent for me of that. And I fully wanna just call out we have two white men on this podcast. Like I am a very light-skinned, white passing Latina. So I just wanna be cognizant of, this is a sensitive topic we're talking about. And certainly we do not have the lived experience of the people who may or may not be making accusations. We do not have the lived experience of Superintendent Marrero. But I also think it's important that we provide a platform to talk about this. And as Alan and I have talked about before, there's not a lot of coverage on this. And I'm really disappointed in the lack of investigative journalism that's been happening. So as far as people continue to be comfortable speaking up and speaking out, we will continue doing this podcast and hopefully shed light on some of the happenings at DPS. And I just wanted to say I agree with everything you just said, Alexis, and just because all of those things are true that we don't know the lived experience, it doesn't mean we don't have the right to talk about these things, discuss them and air them. And in fact, I think in the PA in the recent past, one of the great failings of I. All of these movements is that people were intimidated away from talking about these things by being called names. And we just can't let that happen. But anyway, John let's let's walk through these allegations. I'll just read them and ask you where you think they came from, what and how you would respond to them. You bet. If I might first just to represent, the, again, the surprise that this was for me over the course of the last week, that the intensity of what feels like a very personal attack that is, is grounded in, the kind of accusations that you are going to represent, that we'll talk about that I largely have not been have not heard of, have not been understanding of and had an opportunity to to respond to. So I appreciate the opportunity. Okay. And John I was remiss at the beginning here. I really think it's important to set some context in that, as I wrote in my piece that published on Board Hawk this morning, you're not like just some guy who came in off the street and ran for school board and now it's trying to wreak havoc. You have a long history as an educator in DPS, and so if you wouldn't mind like doing it quickly, but run through your resume and all the different roles you've played in Denver public schools and other school districts over your career. You bet. Yeah, no, I'm gonna go back to just coming outta college. I started volunteering with and working with youth in the Denver community and my first real job was working as a counselor in a group home for young women in North Denver. Spent a few years in investing in listening and understanding and growing to be able to be a part of a trusting relationship with their young women girls between 16 and 18 that we're all. Latina and black young women that were bettering their lives through the experience in our group home. And heading off into different levels of success that encouraged me to become a teacher as a teacher in Denver Public School, starting in 1991 and became a middle school dean. Was hired in West Denver as an elementary principal at Newland Elementary School in the, that's where I first knew you, Jen. Yeah, that's where I first met in the mid, late nineties. Became the Colorado elementary school principal of the year. As a part of that experience was that left the district and went to Summit County for a while to be a principal. Came back as an area superintendent for the Denver public schools and supervised schools. First in, in northeast Denver, then northwest Denver and southwest Denver. Cherished that experience was able to become the principal at East High School over the course of 10 years. I was there twice, five years each in between those years with Chief Academic Officer in the Aurora Public Schools. A part of my career too was as the director of Principal Talent Management and the focus, there was a commitment to through a grant that the district had received diversifying the leadership court and the Denver Public Schools. And that was our effort to pull bias out of recruitment and selection and further develop the level of diversity of our leaders in DPS. And over the course of time, really honored to be a part of working in Denver's diverse urban experience being a part of the learning lives of and listening to, and understanding and growing schools with students and parents and community. And that really all had brought me to my focus and my interest in being at large board member for the Denver Public Schools supporting the learning lives of our students across the district. And you also currently when you're not dealing with school board drama, you're also do some executive coaching or principal consulting with principals around the state. Is that right? That's right. I've both worked as a chief Operating Officer for a local nonprofit called Grasp and and work mentoring and working with principals in turnaround schools and ensuring that the strategy from the district is connecting to the school so that they're progressing effectively for their young people. And to be clear, none of those schools obviously are a DPS because you are a DPS board member, or I assume that's correct? Yeah, that's correct. Okay. Yes. Okay. I had no idea about. How long your history at DPS was, and I love that you and Alan go way back. I don't, I, I don't know how I feel about this, but while you were principal over at Newland, just down the road at CMS, you had little me and, second and third grade hanging out in elementary school while you were the principal down the street, John. So I love this. It's beautiful. There's a woman named Maria that cuts my hair and I was her fifth grade principal ran into, oh, I love that. A woman at event the other day celebrating her graduating daughter was also a student at Newland. So yeah, I really feel a part of the communities in lots of levels. Thank you, Alexis. Great. I'm gonna go through again, these seven points on this letter and just have you talk about'em, John. First I'm gonna read the second paragraph of the letter because it sets the stage and the tone for the overall letter. And this is again, Alex More's letter written to Dr. Kerry Olson, the board president on April 22nd. Over the past year, Mr. Youngquist has consistently demonstrated a pattern of ho of hostility, policy violations, racial insensitivity, and unethical conduct that has created a toxic working environment, undermined district leadership, and distracted from our core mission of serving all students equitably most troubling. It is increasingly clear that Mr. Youngquist is not invested in the success of Denver Public Schools. Instead, his behavior signals an intent to cause harm in pursuit of personal ambition. So the first accusation under that rather loaded paragraph, is a hostile and demeaning behavior towards staff, particularly staff of color says you've engaged in belittling, dismissive, and condescending behavior. Your conduct has been noted in both public and private forums despite intervention and feedback. You're still doing it. And during my last meeting with him, Marrero wrote, he described our district's progress as insignificant, disregarding substantial data and insulting the staff who have dedicated themselves to advancing equity and student achievement. Just for the record, the district's progress is insignificant, so if you told'em the truth, good for you. Anyway, that's my little editorial comment. Go ahead. I wanna first jump into, 0.1 B, which is, name it, what it is, one B, despite direct interventions and feedback, including private conversations and public comments, this obviously has been private. It's no longer private, right? The letter is out there. What type of direct interventions is Marrero talking about here, John? Yeah there, prior to this letter, there had been two circumstances, and this relates to last January as Alan had represented, connected to last January. All Will also, just reminding folks was a, an allegation that I had made, that the district had been violation of the Sunshine Law, the Colorado Open Record Act in regard to an executive session. And those are problems that have, persisted to a degree. And I've spoken with board chair Carrie Olson about those. There, what I found after January was that there were two concerns that people had in mind that related to my interactions with with people of color. I found out about them by sitting down with those people and listening to them and understanding their story and perspective and walking out of those conversations with the new other, standing, a new understanding there. Aside from those there and from that opportunity to listen and reflect and move forward, there haven't been any actions or opportunities to learn that have represented I've experienced. And I wanna also just note that. Those two experiences occurred over the course of time. One of them I wasn't aware of over the course of more than a decade. One of them was a situation where someone had been offended or not included in, or connecting to an opportunity when I was the director of principal talent Management, maybe 10 or 12 years ago. And I wasn't aware of that person having taken offense by not being a part of, or feeling respected or appreciated in one of the processes that we had for for, principal or school leader. Kind of development and selection. The, another one related to more than a year ago, and this was noted back in January, it was in regard to interaction with the district general counsel, where I was very concerned that I wasn't being, provided the information that I was told, that I was being provided with. And I did ask immediately about that and represented in a pretty, direct email. Hey, I feel manipulated. I'm concerned. This is information that I need to be able to do my job. And his response was, and it's been represented publicly and email that represented his taking that as in great offense. As a racial meme representing that he was not effective in his job, wasn't competent in his job in no way was that my interest or my intent. I immediately asked to sit down and have a conversation with him to listen to with him the next week we had coffee and he shared his story with me and I understood differently his experience and his background and walk away having then known of his response and why that came from him and the way that it did, and walked away with a different understanding. Those are those circumstances. And then, most recently, meaning yesterday there was an email attached to this letter that was sent to a reporter. And that email represented an conversation I had on the phone with a district employee. And there were actually two other staff members that were on that phone. In the conversation, one of the staff members asked for this other person to allow me to finish a sentence, felt that I was getting cut off. And then we had a difference of opinion relating to whether something was implemented deeply and effectively in the school district or not. And I think that, that moment of my contradiction or my kind of feedback was taken offense to, again, that isn't something that was represented to me, but it's something that has been represented publicly and something that I need to understand more fully. John, go ahead. Go ahead. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna jump in here. Alan, I am very impressed at your calm and cool collected storytelling. And if I was just chat chatting with two girlfriends. So Alan and John, you're my two girlfriends for the purpose of this podcast. This is ridiculous. Let me just understand this one second. So the first one that you had mentioned is somebody who, you've had some sort of professional or, some sort of relationship with acquaintances. We don't know the specifics for over a decade, is that correct? That's correct, yeah. So this person may or may not have it as you may or may not have already, like very. Preconceived established notions or understanding of behavior based on interactions well before you even ran for the school board, let alone sat on the school board. That's one. Am I right, right about that? That's correct, yeah. Okay. Two And Harvard's a grievance from back then about something that happened then, but it cares. Carried it forward now. That's wild. And then two, the other one, you were on the, a call with staff and one of the staff members stopped because you were being interrupted by someone. That's correct. Okay. And then the third one, the general counsel who, I'm sorry, like that person needs to grow a pair because that's just you're a general counsel. You have to be willing to be in difficult conversations and be asked things and be able to share information. And I will just say. Having spoken to other board members in other context here in DPS, you were not alone in this. Other board members are struggling to access information. When I was doing the, some of the activities last week around what was happening with the contract extension, it became very clear to me based on different conversations I had with different board members, that there is not equal sharing of information going to some board members as opposed to others. So I appreciate, and I'm sure you're, you were a fantastic principal, John, because that's the way I would want an adult to speak to my child. But as a parent, I am very angry on your behalf. So thank thanks for sharing, but I'm gonna be your anger translator for the purposes of this podcast. Okay. Thank you, Alexis. I appreciate that greatly. Yeah. And it does sound like there's an attempt to. I don't think intimidate is too strong a word. Intimidate you in various ways from being the tough questioner that most other board members on this current board aren't willing to be or interested in being. And the job of a school board is to make sure that the district is running well and that it's one employee is doing his or her job will his in this case. And so if you're not asking tough questions, you're not doing your job. I've been around DPS in schools for a really long time now. I'm an old guy and I've seen how often school board members get co-opted by the staff over time in different ways. And I've seen it happen in different ex to different extremes where basically they're completely cut out of the loop entirely and so they have to beg for information, which is what's happening now. Or they get so bought in that they may as well be on the staff instead of. Overseeing this step anyway. So let's not get too sidetracked here'cause there's a lot still to go through. I would like just to add that while Sure. While I'm not intimidated, like I'm too, I've been doing this too long. We've experienced hard times and Ruth forward and served children Well, in, over time in response. It seemed like an intimidating kind of circumstance where this is coming out as you'd mentioned before, a vote to some degree to the board comes out publicly after a vote. And so while I, again, I'm not intimidated, it feels like there's an interest in a level of intimidation that is is frustrating to see it's not the way that we should be doing our work. That's a generous interpretation, I would say. This feels coordinated and incredibly strategic. It's a strategic calculus or so i'll, that's just my opinion there. Number two of the seven is racist and oppressive overtones. It is my strong I'm quoting from the letter here. So this is Dr. Minero's words. It is my strong belief based on his repeated target targeting that's a loaded word of staff of color, his consistent dismissal of equity focused progress, and his undermining of diverse leadership that Mr. Youngquist actions reflect deeply rooted oppressive tendencies. His behavior aligns with that of someone who is threatened by diverse leadership and equity centered programs. These patents are not accidental. They are deliberate and they're harmful. His oppressive rhetoric and tactics are incompatible with our district's values of equity, inclusion, and anti-racism. I don't even know where to go with that, but just how would you respond to those accusations? Yeah, my, my response is that is the same as with number one. Those are the only kind of indicators of question or concern that I've experienced more than anyone on any level is brought up to me. As again, an elementary and high school principal as a chief academic officer a grounding value has always been equity. And what equity means to me is that every child and every person gets what they need when they get it. I believe that this poster is from Newland Elementary School back in 19 the late 1990s focusing on equity as a value and the importance of that frame going to, when I was a Chief Economic Officer in the Aurora Public Schools we had two divisions that I decided to bring together. And they were the division of instruction over here and the division of equity over here and our. Principle, our founding principle became those can't be separate. They need to be completely engaged and integrated. We created and dragged together the resources, the division of equity and learning with equity being a founding principle of the work that we did over the course of time and gained result from. So that it's I don't have an understanding of where that concern arises from. I'm always interested in understanding more. I don't see any other questions or concerns that have come about other than those that I previously represent. Previously represented. And so if any of you were to talk to a staff member, student, community member at East High School you'd understand that equity was a, it is, was and is a deeply engaged value of ours and drove both the provision of resources, the strategy that we engaged in the results that we saw over time as well. I think one of the key. Clauses in a sentence. And number two, here is your Hiro's words. His consistent dismissal of equity focused progress translate. I'm gonna be the anger translator or here, which is what he's saying is because you have dared to question whether DPS is actually making adequate progress, you're a racist. But the fact of the matter is that they are papering over very deliberately their abject failure to get kids of color learning anywhere near the level they need to be learning at. And they're riding on the backs of affluent white kids whose scores are higher and trying to make the district look good by papering over the total failure of their, of theirs to educate the kids they say they care most about. So to me, that's the key clause in there is that you actually dare question. And meanwhile you've got these other board members who are cheerleading failure and acting as though they're enlightened progressives because of it, which is just nauseating. Yeah. And I just wanna point out, just to be really petty for a second. If Alex Marrero wrote this somebody somewhere needs to go back to school and just to get a lesson in basic, like copy editing or something. Point one, you have the sub-bullets or a, and then on the second part of the letter you have dashes. So there's not even consistency in formatting. And as somebody who just is a little bit picky about that, you couldn't even keep your formatting consistent. Come on, Marrero. Like you could do better than that. Okay, let's move on to number three. Unless you have anything else to say about this one, John. No, I think that's it, aside from I was elected to the board to ensure the academic success of every student across the district. And that is my continuing interest and devotion to make sure that our Latina, our black, our white students, all students especially those that have been historically underperforming for so long finally gained the traction to accelerate to higher levels of learning. So that is my only passion, my interest in this role. Thanks, Josh. Alright. Three inappropriate and false accusations. This is, again, I. The superintendent's words. I have been recently informed that Mr. Youngquist accused me of conspiring with educators to ensure students are not failed, implying that our graduation data is manipulated and dishonest. This accusation is not only baseless and defamatory, it is an insult to the integrity of our educators and students. And then he just says, this undermines the success, et cetera. Yeah. Where does any idea where that one comes from? Absolutely. I have been recently informed. Yeah, I know exactly where that comes from. And it is a complete and absolute misunderstanding. I wanna frame this by with a note that in order to put anything on an agenda or request information from the district, we need to have three board members that are making that request. And when I saw, not just here, but in other places the graduation outcomes from 2024 because I was a high school principal when they were freshmen my mind went to, was there anything there that was different? And I became curious. I wanted to ask this question. Was there an effect on graduation outcomes or the student accrual of credits over time? Because with that freshman class's, first and second year, they didn't receive f's. They received incompletes. We did re really hard work to make sure that students completed those classes. I don't think that was a bad idea. I think it was the right idea at the right time because of the context of the situation. And that had nothing to do with Superintendent Marrero that had everything to do with Superintendent Cordova. That was her decision. And Carrie Olson was the the board chair, I think at that time too. And my question was there an effect, did students receive more credits in the ninth and 10th grade? Did that continue with other classes? Was there a positive trend as a result of that? And did it have any outcome that related to. Continuing growing graduation rates, not to take anything away from anyone. Now with a board member, I think that did not want to go along with me on that ask'cause I had one and I didn't have others that had that same curiosity. That's okay. The other person or another person represented to him that I was accusing him of manipulating some sort of data. Not at all the case, not at all the interest. It was really just the curiosity of saying with what I did as a principal four or five years ago, has that had an effect? And what's it been like since was really the question that I had. So the old That's fine. It's, go ahead. Just it's, I didn't realize this, that it takes three board members to put a request into access data. When I was at DPSA board member would just ask for information and staff would just get the information like. It didn't have to go through this. That's not policy governance. Oh, excuse me, Alan. Yes, so that's Okay. Good. Touche. That's wild. Yeah. And how are you supposed to govern without making fully informed decisions that are data-driven? Driven? That's right. Yeah. There's difficulty with the transparency of data for board members. We've made asks and actually had three people request, for example, for mental health status and updates, how are things going over the course of the quarters of the school year? And haven't received those other areas that are very typical, right. That relate to behavioral or safety level data that you would, you probably watched in an ongoing way over the course of the year. And we were able to ask the questions, what are we doing? How's, what's the response to that? What do we do next? Those aren't conversations that we're having right now. If you were one, one person, or there's two two board members and you didn't have a third to ask for information, is it fair to say you would have more luck getting information through a Cora request than through being a board member? Yes. That's crazy. Yeah, and that's been the response that we've had is to likely need to be able to make co requests as a board member. You've been told that by staff as a board member. Whoa. Okay. No, that's just the under, that's the understanding that, that I, and other board members have that to get information. You would have more success coing it than asking as a board member. In this context. Yeah. It's so ironic because back in the days of like when Irv Moscow, I'm going dating myself, but like Irv Moscow and Jerry Waro were superintendents. The strategy that they employed was exactly the opposite. And it may have been just as cynical, but it was essentially every, before every board meeting, board members got delivered to their homes in these manila envelopes, these enormous packets of data and information that they couldn't possibly sort through in the time that they had. It's what happened to you guys, right? When you first got elected with the reasonable interpretations, and I'm not gonna go into that in detail now, but it's so let's drown'em in data and they won't be able to absorb it enough to ask the questions they need to ask. And this is, so they're doing the exact opposite. Now, the other thing I just wanted to say. Based on the way you described how this came about this allegation that Mal Marrero made, it just shows that there's absolutely no desire or ability to assume any good intentions on your part in anything you do at this point. Everything's has an ulterior motive or that's the suspicion. So it's very difficult to over overcome that. The fourth one is violence of gov violation of governance policies. Basically saying that you've ignored governance norm by directly contacting and direct directing district staff without board authorization. This behavior placed the staff in uncomfortable positions, undermines the superintendent's role and violates established policies, and that even after you've been reminded of these boundaries, you have persisted in bypassing board channels and disregarding protocol. Yeah, I just, I don't know of situations in which that's occurred. I when I make communications, what our habits are, I think as a board are in, I really communicate directly with our chief of staff Debbie Staton. And if I communicate with her, I copy board chair Carrie Olson. If I'm sending an email to the superintendent, both of them are copied. I'll ask who I should be referred to. I very rarely, if ever, I don't really recall starting a communication with another board or excuse me district staff person. If I would do that, I would be copying these other people as just a matter of protocol. So I'm not certain where that from. Nobody's talked to me about those concerns, but So are you not supposed to be contacting Debbie State and the chief of staff then? Is that what's suggested here? I can't imagine that's the case. I've been, we've, it's been represented that she's our key contact and I always connect with and copy what about, do you reach out to or go to visit schools or reach out to principals? I'm just trying to, I'm grasping at straws here. I'm trying to figure this out. I'm pretty careful with that one because it's been interpreted so differently over time. And if I'm at an event, and so maybe this is a violation, but if I'm at an event, like I was over at a school the other day for a celebration, principal's talking to me about something that's going on. Hey, I'd love to come and visit. Can I come and walk the school with you or be a part of that event or be present? And they often they've always said, yeah, sure, of course. Come on over and be a part of that. That's the entree. So I don't feel like that is me necessarily approaching them, but needing to make a connection is and understanding that's a part of my responsibility, understanding what's going on in the schools and being present in that space. Alexis. Okay. I, you can't see I raised my hand because I'm like, I have a question. Good. I'm in class now with my teacher. So let me just play a scenario out for you. John, you are an elected official and presumably you have constituents who also happen to be DPS employees. So you have teachers who work in DPS who are constituents of yours. Your job, as far as I'm concerned, is to, one of the pieces is to represent your constituents. And if your constituents reach out to you with a request, and they also happen to be a DPS educator, DPS classroom teacher, what are you expected to do in that situation? Once that person maybe is a principal or that person is maybe like a dean of instructor, a dean of something, at what point. Are you then being accused of what was it conspiring with educators to ensure students are not, or no. That you accused him of conspiring with educators. You were a public official that was elected by people who include educator. Like I am missing something here. I do my best to carry out that, that responsibility. I will. In every circumstance that I can remember, I've just copied someone just to make certain that area is covered and engaging in conversation or responding to communications from staff members. But I've tried to be careful in that space. It seems over defined to me. But that me too. That is what it is right now. Yeah. So if actually, nevermind. I could go on and on. This is just wild. So the fifth one is breaches of confidentiality and ethical violations. He has disclosed confidential information, including privileged legal communications to outside individuals, including media and bloggers. I'm assuming the blogger is me. Such breaches of trust have exposed the district to legal and reputational risk, further evidence of his disregard for his fiduciary responsibilities. What do you say to that one, John? Before this, no one has accused me of that, and there's not a circumstance in which I've violated that expectation or that interest. So it's the first that I've heard from the superintendent of the district in regard to question or concern or a board member. So I don't see validity in there. I don't see merit because there just isn't anything attached to that as some kind of accusation. We have now gone through five of the seven categories, and what's notably missing in this entire letter, but I'm just gonna point it out now, is any specific. Actual examples or cer spelling out of any evidence that there is to back up any of these claims. Now, maybe this was a first salvo and whatever executive session or whatever that they're gonna hold. They're gonna bring in files full of documentation to back these things up. But he's leveling these very serious accusations against you and allegations and providing no evidence to back any of them up. It's fine. We'll just have your board colleague, Scott Esserman get on, the de and make his own comments and tirade about potential evidence and things like that. That's what I anticipate will happen as opposed to, going through a process. But you have seen, no, they, they haven't provided you with anything else that would, other than that letter that you referred to before that, that delineates any specific allegations to back up these seven claims? Not yet. Nothing's been represented that relates To these. That's right. Okay. Number six, and here's where we start to get into the last two, I think get to the meat of the thing, but especially the last one. But number six is public undermining of district leadership and strategy. Mr. Youngquist has worked actively, both publicly and behind the scenes to discredit the district's leadership and strategic vision, including by challenging the validity of state man, state mandated student data and assessment outcomes. Read act. Do you know what that's about? I don't know what that's about at all. I have no clue. What comes to mind to me is the constant conversation about accountability level data and representations of student academic achievements, student growth, and so forth. And as a lot of people have, reviewed the data in an ongoing way and certainly kind of year to year and we'll have a new set that comes out in August or so. The accountability level data has not shown representations of increases in student achievement. MGP or media growth percentiles that, that are representing likely, growth over time. There may have been, a corner or two but overall, I, what I'm looking for and always interested in is overall growth so that we see momentum with the students. Over time. I think the reason why redact data is represented, and it's a part of just my background and experience as an elementary principal, chief academic officer redact data in and of itself is not accountability level data, but the district has used react data to say, Hey, look in first, second, and third grade, there's some changes. There's some shifts. And that's like using interim assessment data to represent growth instead of accountability level data. What I've represented is. Assessment tool is a diagnostic tool that lets me know about how an individual student is doing. What are they? What do they know and what are they able to do? What are they not yet able to do? And should not be used as an accountability level. We're getting better as an organization from my perspective and the perspective of a lot of people. And so when that had been mentioned, I think I did represent it's not accountability level data. It's important through that frame in terms of informing teachers of maybe how to approach instruction next with a child. But that's really in intended to be the value of that data. Now, that should be a conversation that we're able to have, right? That may sound like a critique from me, which it is. And then what I'm interested in is other people saying, oh, let me challenge that a little bit. Let's have that conversation. I think it is because, and let me then go back and forth and maybe change my mind in understanding, but that's not how or engaging that is a critical moment. What are John That is just. John, that is a radical idea, like having a back and forth respectful dialogue that you can disagree with your colleagues on how data is being used to inform decision making. Like how audacious of you. Sorry. And for them to, and for them to spin this in this, or for him to spin this as you challenging the validity of state mandated student data. My god. When what you're saying is the way you're using this state mandated d data is inappropriate because you're trying to put a square peg in a round hole. That's what you're saying. I knew you already lost when you started using terms like growth, because that's like a horrible word to use with this kind of administration. That's for that academic growth and progress. It's coming from that corner into this kind of accusation and, yeah I just don't see the value of that accusation based on, not the conversation that we've had. But, a quick note that I, maybe I had represented the board meeting. And then this is the crux of the matter, and you left it for last, is personal political agenda. He is essentially saying that you want to be the superintendent and you wanna get him out so you can be the superintendent. His exact language is, he has suggested the possibility of a buyout of my contract to raise this as a strategic option, not out of the con of concern for the district, but as a tactic of intimidation. His obsession with my removal, coupled with his private aspirations to assume di district leadership strongly suggests a conflict of interest. It's becoming increasingly clear that his actions are driven by a personal ambition to become superintendent himself, as he had previously pursued repeatedly, unsuccessfully. I don't even know where to start with that one either, but I just would like to give you a chance to respond. You bet. Yeah. Let me start with the fact that I have been asked since before entering a campaign a couple of years ago, whether I want to be the superintendent of DPS, is that a motivation? And I've said, I said no then, and I said, no sense to people that have brought that up. It's been a real interest. My interest was several years ago in applying for the superintendency and DPS in 2021. I applied after Susanna left. And a part of my motivation then was this. I had been critical of the school district over the course of time and I felt that I shouldn't continue to be as critical sometimes as I had been if I'm not willing to step into that role myself. And so I did apply. I did not get the job. I was okay then with not getting the job. I am absolutely okay right now with not being the superintendent of schools and DPS. I value and appreciate the role that the community has put me in as an art at large director of the Board of Education. And I'll lead in that space and continue leading that space with the same passion that I have over time for, since I was in my twenties, right? My professional mission related to engaging in work that allows me to have a positive effect on the learn on the learning of students in whatever frame that is and wherever that takes me. And it's taken me to a lot of different roles over the course of time. It's taken me to this one now, and that's what I'm passionate about. Interested about there is the note in there about representing that he should be bought out of his contract. That is not something that I have ever heard or said. That is not an idea that has crossed my mind. It was interesting to see that pop up through this frame as well. I think it's certainly crossing the mind of many DPS community members now, given that the contract now gives him basically a year severance, which is like a year buyout, should he be terminated? And which is now harder to do because it's five two, super majority. Yep. Yep. Just to be super clear here, because you represented yourself clearly, but I just wanna take it one step further. Can you imagine a scenario going forward where you would once again be interested in being the superintendent of DPS? I can't from this standpoint. The future is not predictable. But my, my belief and my experience is one in which I'm retired with Para, right? And I am, I'm invested in schools in a number of different ways in the community, in a number of different ways. I work as you had mentioned as, a consultant working with principals, that are passionate, engaging in the work. And from where I am career wise, what I'm wanting to do is support the success of others as they're evolving, developing. I met and worked with a principal from another district just yesterday in supporting their effort and ensuring that they have the internal power and pride and expertise and interest to, to be successful, more successful, tomorrow than they were today. And for me, I am in kind of a legacy phase of my career in regard to wanting to continue to ensure that strong leadership is developed and I can provide for that and support that through the role that I'm playing right now. So the last thing that happens in this letter is that he asks the board to do five things, beginning with Cing, you prohibiting you from direct engagement with district staff, outside official channels, a reaffirmation of board governance product protocols. A requirement for immediate governance and anti-bias training, specifically related to policy governance and equity centered leadership. And a review of potential conflicts of interest of his intent is to seek leadership within the district. How would you respond to those if the board demanded those things of you, that you can't talk to anybody directly if they, you, if they ask you to go take anti-bias and policy governance, training, all that. It, it does. Is that something that you would just say, sure I'll do all those things. Or is there, are you gonna push back on that? Yeah, I don't know. Like I'm still processing. This is all seems so new to me. Again, no one has talked to me about it from the district or from the school board. I've just been processing the accusations primarily. I haven't done a lot of processing around those as results. I have never seen a situation where a superintendent is directing a board to engage, levels of consequence with a board member or anyone else. And I really don't know. What I do know is that no matter the outcome, like I've been elected to lead in this role, I'll continue to lead in this role. I'll continue to focus on ensuring that the students of Denver, the children of Denver, that the staff of DPS has what they need to ensure the success of our city's children over time. That's my. Continued commitment not understanding what kind of responses there may be there. I keep my eyes in that space and I look forward to continuing to serve in that role. John, to me it's clear that they're trying to muzzle you. And frankly, if I had any criticism of you, it would be that you're not outspoken enough, not that you need to be muzzled and that you need to be reigned in. How do you re how do you keep this even subconsciously, almost, how do you keep this kind of attack, which is what it is from making you a little bit gun shy or hesitant to touch the stove again or whatever. How do you overcome that and continue to do what you just said you're committed to doing. Yeah. A part of that Alan is, as you mentioned, you've known me since the late nineties, has been a principal in four decades. I've been in these other roles where there is a constant people don't understand this necessarily about the role of a principal. Even, there's a constant agitation in regard to the work that you're doing and not doing, and what you should do differently. And that's a part of this experience for me too, right? No matter the public nature of, these, accusations. A part of me understands what, why that seems to be coming from a superintendent. All of me understands that no matter the agitation or the questions that are there, that people are throwing at me as a principal or as a board member. I'm gonna continue the effort as a board member in working as completely and openly and as thoroughly as I can for our school district and for our community. So it, for me, I am like able to objectively move forward and engage in a relationship with the board, doing the work of the board and even with the superintendent and staff that is necessary and important for us to move our district forward. At what point do you finally just get where I would've been a while ago if I were you and just say, you know what? Go screw yourselves. And that's not the word I would use to, to my colleagues and to the superintendent and his senior staff. That's not your nature clearly, but you must, there must be some anger in there somewhere. John. I can't imagine that there isn't. Yeah there's anger that is in there, but it is anger that allows me to like just refocus and move it forward, right? These are people that I've known for a long time, most of them, you know that, right? And so I've seen how people have evolved over time. And I, you don't want to keep in, in, in whatever context I can what that interest is. But I don't wanna let that change who I am and the work that I'm doing for our schools and for our children. That's where my devotion is. My belief is that over this course of time, be that the next few weeks be that the next eight months be that beyond that timeframe this a part of this is always a long game and we're gonna work toward that long game. And that means ensuring that we're doing the best and we're seeing the results for our kids. I guess my last question then I'll let Alexis have the final is. Assuming this goes forward, and maybe it'll just die on the vine because it's so ridiculous on its face that I would hope that there's common sense prevails and board members won't take it up. But if they do, how do you and you get four of your colleagues, let's say, taking a stand against you and backing the superintendent on this. How do you then continue to have a productive working relationship with those people for the next three years, two and a half years? To whatever degree. I feel like they did that in January. I feel like it's been done right. And what I do then now is that when my constant conversation is about the work to be done, that's how we professionally engage. And over time, I believe that other relationship can evolve and develop if it's supposed to. And as it's supportive of the effort. But I can continue to focus on the professional work that needs to be done. That's, again, that's my interest and that's my devotion, and that's the work that we will do. I will not change and shift and let my community down by being, responsive, to this negative frame in a way that, that disallows me to to do the work. I'm gonna keep my, my, my eyes on the place that we need to be. I've been working with children in the Denver Public Schools, again for over three decades, right? I have, parents across the city that I serve with and work with their kids. I volunteer weekly over at Hallett Academy in the second grade classroom. I've been there for three years. I've followed these kids for three years to see their experience, and I am the principal of four of their moms, right? So we, there's a connection there and a commitment there that is multi-generational. It's not about these weeks or these months. It's about over the course of time, what is the work that we're doing for and with our community. Wow. Thank you so much, John. I do have one follow up question for you, and then I wanted to just give my own commentary on this as your designated anchor translator here. So he calls for the censure. At the end of this, I respectfully urge the board to take action and including one a c for repeated violations of board policy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then goes on 2, 3, 4, 5. I'm just reading this again. Does he call for any kind of investigation? I think that's what John is shake or is shaking his head down. Yes, he does. He does not. And I think that some level might be warranted in a couple of those spaces. Might be welcome to buy me to gain an understanding of what the real is. Absolutely. So I just think the last time a board member was centered, it followed. Weeks, was it months long investigation into board member allegations by members of the public. Those were taken incredibly seriously. And if we wanted to follow a similar process to when the last board member was cen, why wouldn't you call for an investigation as opposed to just leveling your claims and then calling for a c like. I guess if you were Dr. Olson, or if you were Carrie what would you do in her position? And it's a loaded question, no, I it would be what I've done over the course of time in a lot of situations in schools and districts and it would be saying, wow I'm not qualified and I don't have the skills, the time, the ability to investigate, to gain an objective understanding of what happened here. And that is likely what I would call for, especially in areas one and two, that's a space that typically, like as a principal, I would say, I'm not gonna I don't invest in or investigate these situations. Now I wanna request a Title IX investigation that is fair and is objective, and we'll be listening and understanding and look toward what our reality was. It is, and where we go from here. Yeah. Okay. And I guess my last just comment here and then I wanna give you the final word, John, is a couple of pieces. The first is that, as you were chatting about, or as you were talking about your experience and the long tenure you've had with DPS, I was just reflecting on the previous superintendents, previous iterations of this board. And I can only imagine if Susanna Cordova or Tom Boberg had written a letter to any of their board presidents accusing this, making the same kinda accusations to another board member, even one that they probably politically were misaligned with. Just they'd, no way we, they could get away with that. And I think that's what's most concerning is how much the superintendent is able to get away with. What I'm seeing this as is, really low emotional intelligence, very weak leadership. It feels like he's operating a little bit like hysterical in some ways. I can only imagine what it's like behind closed doors with him. So I just appreciate your willingness to come out. So many people in the community who are paying attention to this have had so many questions about what's happening at DPS, and it's so easy for the superintendent to just level these accusations without then having the dialogue or even the investigation about what's really going on. And I've said it before on this podcast a couple of times at this point, and I'll say it again I'm really disappointed at the. Lack of investigation into these types of claims, and it's a very surface level, the kind of media coverage we're seeing. So I appreciate you taking the time and I know you're have a very busy schedule to come on and at least make your case and share your side of the story. Absolutely. We just wanted to turn it over to you for any final thoughts, John, or anything you want our listeners to hear. You know what? I just, I appreciate so much the opportunity to come in and to talk and be asked those questions. Questions that I haven't been asked by anyone in regard to those accusations that are there. I, as I mentioned, have, I've been committed to and continue to be committed to schools and the Denver Public Schools over the course of decades. What I want to be able to do is to. To work with the staff, to work within a district community in a city that's focused on ensuring the growth of every one of our students in every corner of every one of our buildings over time. And that's been a continuing devotion and mission over the course of time for me. That's where I'll continue to sustain my focus as we're moving through these next few weeks as we're moving through the next few months, and into the future. I know that there are community members that I've worked with over the course of time, thousands that I've appreciated them, they've appreciated me and my investment that our schools. And I look forward to continuing that leadership over the course of the time with our city. Thanks, John. I forgot to mention one other thing. As I was thanking you for coming on here, I just want you to know, and I want our listeners to hear that you're not alone in this. Yes, you are. Being called out as a board member, but there are other people that I know are experiencing retaliation from the superintendent who are re experiencing retaliation from board members. And I have my own personal issues I am currently dealing with with the superintendent and retaliation. I just appreciate you being brave brave enough to come on. We had a listener comment recently on the bravery of people coming onto the podcast. People like you, people like Robin and we hope more and we hope that your bravery will help allow other people to step up and share their experiences as well. Thanks John. Thank you. Thank you, John. And thanks. And I just have to, I, I have one little last comment to make, and I may have said this before, but the parallels in some ways to the Trump administration the attempts to intimidate people to. Cast them away. And the parallels of this school board, or at least the majority members of this board to the totally prostrate Congress of the United States is startling to me. We're just on the opposite end of the political spectrum from Trump, but we're seeing the same kinds of behavior and it's really depressing if it's bleeding down from the top into other aspects of our political system. And I just urge everyone to stop it, start acting like adults and start acting like decent human beings which seems to be disappearing. On that cheerful note, we will end this longest of all of our podcasts, I'm sure, but it was a worthy topic to go into in depth. Thanks everybody. Yeah. Thanks to you both.