Episode 22: A conversation with Clarence Burton Jr., CEO of Denver Families for Public Schools

Transcript

Alan Gottlieb: 0:07

Welcome back to the podcast. Today we are doing a second of a two-part series on how Denver School Board campaigns are financed and run. Last week we had on Rob Gould, president of the Denver Classroom Teachers Association, and today we welcome Clarence Burton Jr. Of Denver Families, Republic Schools, and Denver Families. Action. Denver families was formed in 2020 as a sort of counterbalanced the political might of the DCTA with substantial financial resources, which last cycle helped build a strong ground game. Usually one of DCTs main advantages in school board elections, and all three of the candidates endorsed by Denver Families Action won their seats. Also wanted to let everybody know just right up front that Denver families is a funder of Board Hawk, so in case anybody thinks there's anything nefarious going on, we own that. We're not ashamed of it, we're proud of it. And Clarence Burton, who's our guest has been, or Clarence Burton, Jr I should say, has been CEO of Denver Families for Public Schools, which is the 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit and Denver family's action. Its 5 0 1 c forearm since 2021. Is that date correct? Clarence? You got it. Okay. Welcome to the show and we're glad to have you on.

Clarence Burton Jr: 1:18

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on and I just wanna start with, it's a little bit surreal to be on the podcast now. Like I don't know if y'all fully appreciate what you have created, but this is within the education ecosystem in Denver, I felt is like the water cooler. Podcast you put one of these out and then the next day, as you are meeting folks, they're like, Hey, have you listened to the podcast? Someone said this. And so I really appreciate the opportunity to come on and just also wanna appreciate both of you'cause for what you're creating here, which is the opportunity to engage in conversation around these really critical topics. Increasingly I think we're in a political environment that. Deprioritizes meeting people where they are and having, real conversations about the issues that matter. And instead focuses on easy talking points and cutting each other down. And so just thank you for creating this space. Y'all are doing great work.

Alan Gottlieb: 2:12

Thanks. Appreciate it. We're having a lot of fun.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 2:14

Thank you. Excited to have you on. So to get us started, Clarence, do you mind just telling us a little bit about Denver Families for public schools? Who are you, what do you guys do? A lot of folks have heard of you but may not know what exactly Denver Families does.

Clarence Burton Jr: 2:28

Absolutely. Appreciate the opportunity to tell this story a little bit because I've been doing a lot of reflecting on that myself over the last few months as we approach our four year milestone. And it was four years ago I was sitting, I'll never forget, I, I was in a coffee shop, Stella's coffee. And Denver Families for Public Schools and Denver families actually knows it was just me and a notepad in a dream. And the North Star that we were working towards was really clear wrote down. What is the goal? And the goal is that every student in the city of Denver has access to a high quality public education, regardless of where they live. And what gets more complicated always is the how, how do we get there? And whenever I'm feeling a little bit stuck on something like that, I. Write out a few questions and the first question I wrote down was, can Denver's public school families be the power brokers in public education in our city? And if they are to be the power brokers, that means that, they are really the leading force in defining what our public schools look like, what our public school system looks like and evaluating how well that we're meeting that mission. Of serving all students well. And so that kind of led to the next step of the organization was to do that we've gotta organize. I'm an organizer at heart. I could tell you a little bit of that story. And so the first thing we did was hire an organizing team. So we've got community organizers that are now working within the same. Communities that they grew up in Denver around the same schools that they went to in DPS going in, working with parents, working with educators, working with community members who wanna support our public schools. And we also developed a series of leadership development programs. Alexis, I know you've had the opportunity to witness one of those programs lead 1 0 1 that we run over weekends. And Alan, you're invited as well. So now we gotta have you out and see one of these programs. When you see it, and it's just an amazing space. We've now had for that program. For example, lead 1 0 1, it's a weekend program where we work with members of our school communities having conversations about education, policy, education, politics, where the two meet, and how they define the system that we have. Because to meet our mission that I just named, that's where it all starts. You have to understand what the field looks like and. You look around in those rooms and they look like our school communities. We have one of the first slides we show in those trainings is a comparison between our school communities and our voting population. Our school communities, as I know you all know is three quarters students of color. It is majority Latino. It is one third English language learners. And so that starts to paint a picture of our school population and then we show a slide that shows who votes in school board elections citywide. And you look at that, it's about 86, 80 7% white, and it trends more affluent and older than our school family population. So there's a disconnect, between the two. And, I'll never forget, one of those early lead 1 0 1 sessions I was doing q and a gentleman rose his hand and said, Hey, you just told us that you want us to be the power brokers in public education. I was like, yes, of course. And he said, go back to that slide. The people that hold the power look like this. And I'm so glad we're in a room right now that looks like our school population is representative of our school population. But what is your organization doing to connect the dots between the two? And I probably gave an answer that sound polished and buttoned up, but the more that I thought about it, the more that I felt like, it wasn't a very good answer at that time, and that was the origin of launching what is our listening campaign commitment that we made, and is now the heartbeat of our organization, which is two years ago we made the commitment to run the largest listening campaign. In the history of the city of Denver which meant that part of it was going out and canvassing 100,000 Denverites across the city in every neighborhood. And some folks listening to this have probably gotten a knock on their door. Someone in a blue vest that said, learn with their hat on and a button. Hope you were nice to them. Those are folks from our school communities. About 80, over 85% identifies one or more of a DPS parent, a DPS teacher, or a DPS alumni, and often one more than one of those. And through that work is really the groundswell, connecting the dots between the. Broader community, meeting them where they are and then inviting them into a conversation with those who are within our school communities about how we get to a future state where all families, all students are being served equitably. So that's really the foundation of our organization. That's what our North Star is. Every kid in a great public school. And the how is through community-based grassroots work.

Alan Gottlieb: 7:21

Thanks, Clarence. Just wanted to circle back'cause I think it might be interesting for people to hear at least really briefly, you said you have an organizing background and you have some stories about that or whatever. So tell us just a little bit about your organizing background before Denver Families.

Clarence Burton Jr: 7:33

Oh, thanks. For that. I grew up one of eight kids. I come from a big family. And that background, I, if I had to sum up in a word, my family experience, certainly dysfunctional social workers were always a part of our life. I thought that was true for every kid. Social worker shows up and you gotta get the house ready and all of that. But even though my home life was dysfunctional, school was this place where I found a sense of belonging. This thing that I could be good at. And second grade tested into the gifted and talented programs and was repeatedly affirmed of, this is the pathway to, to a different future. And that remained true in elementary school and partway through middle school. But in fifth grade my family became homeless. And so we bounced around for a bit. And about halfway through middle school, we ended up in long-term foster care, and I mentioned that. Just because. For the first time I went from being in schools and I always joke, like I went to every civil rights school where I grew up. Like I went to MLK, I went to JFK, I went to Rosa Parks. It's this is how they named schools in the hood. But with other kids, 95% black and brown students lower income, from backgrounds like I came from. But when I entered foster care for the first time, I was in a middle class neighborhood, going to a school where, I was often the only black kid in the class. I'll never forget the experience of the first day. Looking up at the whiteboard, first period English class teacher, put up a warmup, find everything that's wrong with the sentence. And I'm looking at this sentence and I have no idea what's wrong with it. And all the other kids have their head down. And the way that I experienced that at the time was, something must be wrong with me. And as I got older, fortunately through a stable environment, I caught up. I was, I first taken out of those gifted and talented classes out of some, standard classes put in remedial. But I was able to catch up and become the first in my family to graduate high school, graduate college but also learned about educational inequity that, in one neighborhood I could be growing up. In advanced programs being told like, you're doing great and just a few miles away, walk into a school and have no idea how to do, the writing assignment, how to do the math problem. And I decided what I wanted to do with my life was make a difference in that area so that kids that come from similar backgrounds also have the opportunity to excel in education. And then my first experience in organizing was actually foster youth organizing. As a teenager, I got connected with a program that. Gave foster youth a chance to work with other foster youth, and we bounced around for school to school and then had the chance to meet with local state reps and go down to the state capitol and talk to legislators and turn ideas that we started to identify within our community. Into policy proposals and ultimately into real legislation. And that's how I got the organizing bug. That is stealth determination. That is agency, that is what this work is all about. And I find often even in the work that we're doing today at Denver Families for public schools and Denver Families Action is all about trying to create environments where that is true for people. Where they figure out and have the opportunity to discover the ability to. Shape the world around them in a way that is more equitable and just,

Alan Gottlieb: 10:49

okay. Thanks. I just think that background, I don't think a lot of people know that background, and I think that's really interesting and actually relevant. So thank you for giving that to us. So really the purpose of what we wanted to do today, the heart of what we wanted to do today was to dig deep with you the way we did last week with Rob Gould from the DCTA. Get a sense, first of all, of your, endorsement process and how you and connected entities fund the candidates you endorse. Let's start with the endorsements, though. What's the process? Denver family's action uses to decide whom you're gonna endorse, and then how do you go about doing that?

Clarence Burton Jr: 11:23

The process really starts with as I was telling the story of the organization, of you could go straight to the endorsements themselves and that process, but that's really step six or seven right step. One begins with the listening work. And so we really have to start there. And that work of. Going door to door of collecting tens of thousands of surveys of organizing within the school communities. Like all of that leads to data that are 5 0 1 C3 Denver Families for Public Schools makes publicly accessible. And then when it comes to our endorsement process we then have the opportunity to. The C four to take that publicly available information and help it inform the type of work that we're doing. But we don't jump straight to then saying, okay, here's what we heard from community and asking candidates to respond to it. Every step along the way, we wanna make sure that we're being a community informed organization, and talked about some of the ways we give members of our school communities the opportunity to engage in our work and inform it and, drive our decisions. And that's no different with the endorsement process. And so we started to put together a community panel that we wanted to ensure we had representation across the board. And so from every part of the city. Every background, whether that's being a parent, whether that's being, having experience directly in DPS as an alumni, whether that is leading a school, whether that's being a teacher. All of those perspectives were represented in, in that panel. And we also relied on them to take that, that data as we refined it and helped shape the questionnaire. I want to apologize. We got a lot of feedback. We have a very long. Questionnaire, I recognize that. And there was just no way to get around. Like when you ask the community what are the things that they care about, it's a very long list. And so anyone can go to our website, Denver Families Action, go to the endorsement page. And if you wanna see the questionnaire, it's an example of the different issues that we dig in from, whether it's school safety, whether it's mental health, whether it's, strong academics in our schools or so many other topics. We really dig into it. And then we also worked with them to refine the questions that we asked in the interview process, and I got, it was such. A special experience. Honestly, something I feel fortunate to be in, in this position to witness folks who want to run, to have the honor to represent our community on our public school board. Which I think is a critically important position. Our schools, our kids, our education that de determines what the future of the city, what the state, what the country's gonna be. So to see the folks who wanna serve in that position sit before a broad panel and look around and see parents, see teachers, see school leaders see, alumni who have been through the system and have their own experiences. Vetting those candidates and responding to then the community informed, questions that was really special. And ultimately all of that informed the endorsement decisions and believe that we are supporting candidates who are best positioned to actually deliver on the commitments that they've made to the community and the change clearly that we heard from the community that they wanna see. Okay. Thanks.

Alan Gottlieb: 14:40

That's

Clarence Burton Jr: 14:40

helpful.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 14:41

Thanks so much, Clarence. I having talked to a couple of the candidates. It was nice to hear them say how much they appreciated the endorsement process. In the interview in particular. I think many probably don't love how long the questionnaire is. Yes. But that's very normal. But hearing how it felt authentic and particularly the family engagement piece was nice. And I won't name any names, but some of the candidates did express just how much of a contrast that was to their DCTA interview where, it felt almost like a Gotcha. As opposed to a conversation with families. So kudos to you on that. Next question, and this is the part where, every time we have an election cycle, inevitably the conversation around quote unquote dark money comes up. And in my view, it's often sensationalized. That's my bias coming in here, but I wanna hear from you and the more you can simplify this for our listeners, because I think some people understand the difference between these entities and the IRS tax structure, others don't. So as much as you can explain the difference, that would be really helpful. So we have Denver Families for Public Schools, which is a 5 0 1 C3 organization. Then we have Denver Families Action, which is a 5 0 1 C four organization. I'll be asking you to describe what a C four is here in a second. And then there's an independent expenditure committee called, I believe, better leader Stronger Schools. Is that right? So how, what are these three entities, especially the C four and the ie. And how do they work together and where does the money come from for those organizations?

Clarence Burton Jr: 16:14

Yeah, I appreciate the question. So starting there the way that we're funding, when I say we, to be very clear, I'm talking about Denver Families for Public Schools and Denver Families. Action. Better Leaders, stronger Schools is an independent and separate entity that we have made investments in. To raise awareness about candidates that, that we're supporting. But in terms of we're funded on the first two. Yeah, I always think about it. It's a little bit like it's a little family potluck. Some folks bring the big dishes and those are foundations, philanthropic support who want to make sure there's food on the table. Others bring something smaller, but just as important. And that's the grassroots individual donors who chip in because they believe families should have a voice. And altogether it makes for, a full table, let's call it that. And what matters is not who brought what it's that the meal feels the work. Which is knocking on doors, listening to families, making sure their voices are shaping our schools. And it's a fair question to ask, right? And the short answer is just to jump to the chase is no donor decides our endorsements or drives our agenda. Those decisions come directly from the, informed community process that we have. And from what families tell us in thousands of conversations in their school communities, at their doors and beyond what they care about. And donors support us because of that mission not the other way around. So if anything, I believe our independence is what people are investing in because they know. That, those public school families will always come first in the work that we do. And they believe that's something worth investing in. And in terms of those different entities, I know there's little bit of like an education gets a little wonky, like a 5 0 1 C3 is, I always say, you close your eyes and you imagine a nonprofit, that's what most folks like picture and that is. You can make a contribution. It is tax deductible. That's a 5 0 1 C3. A 5 0 1 C four is also part of the tax code, so it is a nonprofit as well. However, contributions to them are not tax deductible. And one of the reasons they're not tax deductible is because a 5 0 1 C four can engage in a limited amount of political activity. The majority of its mission must still be nonpolitical but it's permitted to engage in a certain amount of political activity. And there are many examples of that, where you'll get that of that type of work. And the third thing you mentioned, better leader strong schools. That's an independent expenditure. And so that's separate. And that is a sort of organization. That operates purely in the political. You can make contributions to it. One thing that's key, it's in the name independent expenditures cannot coordinate with candidates. And so that is a separate entity they can support. Candidates and raise awareness. They can oppose candidates or issues but they have to be run independently from candidates or it themselves.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 19:25

Thanks so much, Clarence. And I wanna make sure that our listeners know that the independent expenditure. That strategy of having organizations give to the independent expenditure and then the independent expenditures engaging in the election is very common and it's something that we also see DCTA do as well. So it's not something that's unique to Denver families. One follow up I have for you, and I really appreciate the family like potluck analogy and I think about, how I would contribute, right? The most I maybe contribute is like$250, a hundred dollars here,$50 there. It's the equivalent of like me with the mom guilt, bringing the prepackaged cupcakes or the prepackaged vegetable tray. We have people who are bringing the big fancy casserole dish. And so just naming it like we were having the conversation with Rob Gould, he referenced some of the big. Big organizations like Walton and Gates and the City Fund. I actually don't see an issue with just naming those organizations because they are trying to both do they're doing a lot of charitable giving. I think that a lot of them are doing really good work. But can you speak to who some of those larger organizations that are bringing the bigger dollars are, or at least name who they are?

Clarence Burton Jr: 20:34

Sure. And that has been like publicly reported and shared. The city fund has been instrumental and Gates Family Foundation locally supports our work. And so yeah, absolutely. I think as you named, it's the, there's no issue for me naming that because one if you're gonna invest in our work, it's because you believe in what we're doing. And ultimately it's like you gotta believe that North Star that we have, which is all kids in great public schools in our city. And you gotta believe in what we are doing to get there. And at the end of the day, our theory of change is predicated on believing that those solutions exist in our c. And that we're gonna organize within our community to get to those outcomes. And I gotta say, this is something that I take very personally. I shared a bit about my own experience as a rewind to being a 15-year-old and going from. Being a part of a system where things are happening to you. And I think, for our foster youth, it's hard to imagine, many situations where that's more true, right? Where you are put in placements there's so much uncertainty around that experience. And then to have the, the revolutionary experience of. Getting engaged in community organizing as I did and seeing the type of. Change that can drive and the experience, not just you're having, but others who are coming after you. That type of agency that it creates and the importance of self-determination. I take it very seriously that the organization that, I've built out over the last four years and the work that we're doing in Denver and the partnership that we now have, where we hit Biden. Tens of thousands of families into this work asked for their engagement. I'll tell you a story. When we were first doing the LEARN program. I always believe, if you wanna be a leader you've gotta show folks that you are willing to do the things you're asking them to do. And so it'd been a while since I'd been on, out on doors since I'd worked on some campaigns in the past in the state. And so I brushed off, my tennis shoes and got my clipboard out and went on doors out with our Learned canvassing program. And I was knocking actually in five points. And a grandmother answered the door, and at first her reaction was what you expect, knock on someone's door. She's trying to get outta that conversation as quickly as possible of over time, I was able to work out, why I was at the door and find her to this conversation about public schools. And she mentioned that she was raising three grandkids who were in DPS. She started to talk about their experiences and then started to talk about her own experiences growing up. As an English language learner, like in our schools and, the difficulties around that. And then seeing, our grandkids also start to experience, related but similar types of discrimination and their own experience and we had a really incredible conversation and at the very end of it. I noticed that she was getting tears in her eyes and I was, taken. I was like, I hope it wasn't something I said. And so I asked her and she said, it's just a surprise to me that someone actually cares. And I think about that experience a lot in the responsibility that our organization. Has to the community that we're engaging because that grandmother, I believe there's tens of thousands of others guardians, caretakers, parents, grandparents, just like them who were inviting into this conversation about the future of our schools and are entrusting us to take what they're telling us seriously. And we try to live out that value every day.

Alan Gottlieb: 24:21

Thanks, Clarence. Just a quick follow up to Alexis's question, which is just wanted to go a little deeper on Citi fund because it's clearly, when we interviewed Rob Gould last week, it's a hot button issue. They also have issues with Gates and Walton and everybody who they think is a privat, corporate donor, all that. But city Fund is a little bit of a black box to people. And because City Fund I know is one of your major funders, if you could just talk a little bit about who City Fund is and who their funders are, because I think, just having all that out in the open gets away from the sort of, oh, Denver Families Action is a black box and nobody knows where the money comes from, but it's, it's evil corporate privatizing money. So just talk, just tell us a little bit more about, about Citi Fund money and where that comes from.

Clarence Burton Jr: 25:01

That sounds like an invitation for you to invite someone from, that organization on. And I certainly won't be the expert in, in every group. I can tell. Certainly speak to why I know they make investments in our organization and the work that we do. And, I know that they believe in that, we've got a diverse student population here in Denver. In order to meet the needs of that diverse student population, you're gonna have to have a diverse set of public school options that families have access to. And it really falls in line with the kinds of conversations, we've had constantly where you can talk to, whether it's a family in Southwest Denver or family in Northeast Denver, and they talk about the types of, learning environments and what it means to be a responsive public school and they can. Describe two very different things. And or they can talk about their own kids and they might have a couple of kids and they need to be in different types of public schools. And so the question is, how are we making sure we have those different types of options available within our public school system that's being responsive to the needs of our communities? I know that's a value that their organization holds. It's a value that we hold, we advocate on because we hear and experience directly in our. Communities that's what they have asked for, what they need and what's responsive to their lived experience. I also wanna take this opportunity just to name something and if I can be so bold that in the framing of this conversation, said something that, I personally disagree with and the perspective our organization disagrees with, which is Denver families as an organization being a counterbalance to anyone else in the space. It's just not how we. Approach the work. And I certainly don't think, if you think of a organization of teachers they are critical to the success of our schools. And I, myself, my, my foster, I've described middle school joining a foster family. My second foster family I was placed with and is my family to this day happened in high school. And my foster mom is a lifelong teacher, spent her in. Entire career working in our elementary schools. And beyond that, a couple years ago she, does all this incredible work in our schools and then started teaching on the side at a correctional facility working with inmates. And you ask her, why with her schedule so full. And she's someone said. They needed a teacher. And so I've seen firsthand sort waking up in the morning and seeing her preparing lesson plans for the day and then no matter how early I was getting up, she was always up first and then going to bed at night. And no matter how late I was going to bed, seeing her. Working, grading papers and that experience added into the work that we've done in community. One of the first, second and third things people always say is, we need to make sure that we're supporting our teachers respecting them, providing them with environments to be successful. And I wouldn't say, teacher pay comes up. I don't say paying them out of respect, it's what they've earned, right? And we're not doing that nationally, statewide, or in the city of Denver. So I just wanted to like, name that perspective. I see that very differently. And it's just a different approach and angle on it.

Alan Gottlieb: 28:12

No, I appreciate that and I, I totally see your point, and it actually leads into a question I wanted to ask you anyway, so that's great. Which is, I've heard you and other people in Denver families say that a sign of great progress in Denver would be if Denver Families Action and DCTA endorsed. A candidate or two jointly. They both not working together to do it, but you both endorsed a candidate. Youngquist would've seemed like a logical one, but an armistice only works if both sides lay down their arms. And it seems like you guys are willing to say we don't really see it the way as this sort of bipolar, acts two axes of influence the way I said it. But rather that we're all trying to work toward the same thing and we just have a different approach. But how, I guess the question I have is, how can you ever make this happen if DCTA has made it clear they won't endorse a candidate that you've endorsed, and how do you start to break down this barrier and this sort of old narrative about reform versus union, blah, blah, blah. That's been around forever at a time. As I asked Rob last week, when we've got serious real threats from the outside in the form of the Trump administration that makes the differences between, reformers and the union. Seem petty. How do you start to break that down if the other side seems, because Rob certainly didn't seem like he wanted to move an inch when I asked him those questions.

Clarence Burton Jr: 29:35

I'm glad that you mentioned the environment that we're operating in right now from a federal perspective. One of the hardest things about this year has been sitting with families who are experiencing that firsthand and seeing. The gap that sometimes exists between these insular, political wedge us versus them conversations that happen in sort of the small education ecosystem. I know we all exist in that seem like life or death. And then you sit down with a family and ask about their experience and they're talking about the real. Fear that exists in say, the immigration enforcement that's happening and ripping people from their homes and from their community and making, kids, parents afraid to drop off their kids at school. And so I'm glad you mentioned that. I won't go too far down that rabbit hole, but just to acknowledge that there are some incredibly incredibly challenging things that our school communities are experiencing that we should be rallying around and not engage in like a circular firing squad. And in some ways, I'd say I am proud of being in Denver of the work and the leadership that we've seen at Denver Public Schools around, issues like protecting our immigrant students on protecting our L-G-B-T-Q students and staff. That it's, that matters a lot. To your question about. How we move on from that binary. It's a little bit of man in the mirror, right? Is what you can control is how you show up. And so what I've tried to do as a leader of this organization is ensure that every day we're shown up in a way that lives out that value. We don't exist in the binary. We believe that is not only true for how we as a team think about this work. Which, by the way, is a team that is representative of our community. Our staff includes folks, DPS, graduates, DPS, parents, former DPS teachers, former DPS school leaders, right from our school communities. But also how we show up in spaces and hear them say the same thing, like people. Average people are so tired of this binary, they're so exhausted with the education wars, and they just wanna have a school system that works for them. And they're pretty sure that this fighting, the sort of like trying to constantly score the political points by re framing someone in a way that maybe isn't quite accurate or quite honest in terms of the values they actually have or what they actually do. Believe in isn't how we get there and deliver results for kids. Our commitment is we're gonna continue to show up that way. It doesn't mean we don't have values and are not gonna disagree. At times on things like, I know there's real disagreements that we have with other stakeholders in the space. We're gonna stand on those'cause we believe they're representative of what we've heard from community and how we can best serve families. But we can also, live out that value of what we have is permanent interests. And we're willing to link arms with anyone at any time when those interests align.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 32:36

Thanks so much, Clarence. And I really would encourage our listeners, if you're just hearing this recording and haven't listened to the Rob Gould interview that Alan and I did last week I would encourage you to listen to both and and just hear the contrast is all I'm saying. And along those lines about what does it look like to not live in this binary, I, for a long time. Especially when I was running for school board in the years after, have been called like a reformer, a privatize. You wanna dismantle public education. And I would do my best to try to say I don't believe that's the case and I don't consider myself a reformer. I consider myself this. And so I've just gotten to the point where. I'll embrace the name like as somebody who considers herself progressive. I think to be progressive is to want to reform. And whether that's healthcare reform, reproductive rights, whether that's women's autonomy to choose to, to me, why limit choice of parents, why limit limit innovation and education. I still struggle with this idea that to be a reformer means you are a privatize. Especially when I think a lot of the things here in Denver we're trying to pursue is not, the vouchers, it's not the savings the education savings accounts. How would you respond to somebody saying, Clarence and Denver families, they're just a bunch of privatizes. What would you say?

Clarence Burton Jr: 33:59

Yeah. I would. I accept that opportunity because where we absolutely agree is we should be on the lookout for. Privatization at the national level, there certainly is an interest in that. We see that from the Trump administration. We see that in the, Congress right now of efforts to advance things like private school vouchers and education, saving accounts. And and we have taken a stand at Denver families to oppose that. We're on the record. Around all of those issues we stand in opposition to any effort to move public dollars out of public schools. And last year, there was Amendment 80, for example, which many viewed as an effort to open the door to voucher like programs in Colorado. And we convened our endorsement panel. We kinda talked about the endorsement process previously and voted to oppose that measure. And we'll continue to fight that. The good news is there are not strong efforts to do that here in Denver to bring those types of programs here. And Howard would respond to that. Alexis is just to say we're on the record around those issues. We absolutely believe that how we get to the outcome that we're looking for, all kids having access to a grade school is by innovating within our public school system. And accepting, we don't have the answers. Like I think there are things to build upon that have come before. But clearly when you've got a system where 40% of kids in DPS are reading at grade level, you look at subgroups like black students, it's only one in four. Reading at grade level. We haven't figured it out yet. And we're committed to is ensuring that we've got a public education system that's moving more in the direction of serving all families. Well,

Alan Gottlieb: 35:52

thanks, Clarence. Last question from me is just talking to a lot of people out in the education ecosystem, some people definitely seem to believe that. It's unhealthy for sort of the local political system ecosystem to have the two, what are perceived by some, at least as two behemoth organizations battling it out for local board seats. The cost of running for a school board seat, particularly at large, but even district seats has gotten so much more expensive than it was 10 or 15 years ago, and so it makes the campaigns a lot less. Grassroots. Basically you have to either have the DCTA or the Denver Families action endorsement or you have a very long shot at getting a seat. I guess I'm curious, obviously there needs to be, there needs to be funding on both sides, not again, there's that binary again, but do you think the current arrangement is healthy in terms of transparency and truly open elections or would you like to see something different evolve over time?

Clarence Burton Jr: 36:51

Yeah. What I think I just heard you articulate Alan, is an argument for overturning Citizens United. Yeah of course, yes.

Alan Gottlieb: 36:59

Yeah.

Clarence Burton Jr: 37:00

Sign, sign me up. We're gonna need to get a few more Supreme Court justices but absolutely I partially joke just because we both know how far we are probably from. Court that would give us that result. This isn't just true in terms of what you're describing of, fundraising and the cost of elections in school board races. I think folks know that this is true at every level. Like increasingly we're seeing political campaigns get, it's one of those things where it just builds on itself. Each year, each cycle gets more expensive than the last. And that means you've gotta have resources to compete. And so my response would be two things, which is philosophically, absolutely. I think that campaign finance reform, starting with overturning Citizens United would be a step in the right direction for our democracy. And I don't say that lightly. I think our democracy is on the ballot in our country right now. I. And at the same time, we're having a critical conversation. I believe elections are moral decisions. And democracy is one of the beauties of them is every day really, we get to decide as a people and as a country who we wanna be. And our elections give us the opportunity to write and rewrite our social contract. And, we are not going to unilaterally step away from that conversation.'Cause we believe the issues that we're advocating around are critically important and at the same time how we show up to that conversation is important. And I tried to and will continue to work and I know our team and the community organize with police firmly. That the way that we show up to that work is. Rebuilding, stitching back together, our community, our state, our country, in a time when increasingly, there seem to be so many forces that are pulling it apart. And so I'm really proud of the work that we do in community every day because I believe it's not only about how we are working to improve our public schools in Denver, but I also fundamentally believe it is at its hard work that is rebuilding the country that we all wanna live in.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 39:12

Thanks so much, Clarence. I wanna pivot away my last question from the election itself and and get back to, our students and really talking about the school district and board governing as well. So this week we've seen a lot of celebration of the green status on the district performance framework. And the, for those of you who may be a similar age to me, like I'm reminded of like the Nickelodeon slime, the green slime, the orange slime. There's a picture of Alex Marrero Oliver Instagram and getting slime in green. And so it's like a celebratory thing. We're very happy that we are. Now in that green status, there's some nuance, and that's a whole nother podcast episode we can have. And if you haven't listened to the one of the recording on CMAs, folks should do that. But fast forwarding a year from now, what do you, what does success look like to you for the district? What does success look like on the school board in, in your perfect world, one year from now?

Clarence Burton Jr: 40:11

Yeah important to start with the academic outcomes, right? Our schools are asked to do so many things, and we have to acknowledge that from that, that are beyond academics. And so it's absolutely true. You talk to any teacher, you talk to, any school leader they'll tell you that how much they're asked to do and increasingly asked to do. And our schools are the only institution in our democracy that are uniquely asked. To provide for, the academic and ultimately preparing our generation academically for the future. And so I do believe as you started there, we have to start there first in terms of what those outcomes look like and how they look by subgroup. And are we serving all communities well in terms of. Where we'd like to be or where I, I hope we can be a year from now. What does success look like? One thing we've heard consistently in the conversations we have had in different ways across communities, but really the same theme is the belief of we've got to have a comprehensive vision. About how we get from where we are now to where we want to be. And oh by the way, where are we saying we want to be?'Cause we can look at the results and acknowledge where there's been progress. There absolutely is progress to acknowledge DPS going green for the second time. In its history, it's something to acknowledge and celebrate. And I think something actually you saw in the superintendent's post on this was that, it's a celebration, not a destination. I really agree with that. Let's celebrate where this progress and that is not mutually exclusive to acknowledging that the gains are not significant enough. To have a high degree of confidence that we in a timeline that I think is respective and responsive to the school communities and specifically the underserved communities that have often been left behind by our education system are gonna get what they deserve in the timeline that they deserve it. And so I'd like to see our school board play a leadership role in defining that vision of setting a high bar in terms of where we're trying to get to. Get to and partner with the district to cast that comprehensive plan, that vision about how we get from where we are now to where we need to be, so that all students when they go to school know they're gonna get great academics, know they're gonna be in a safe and welcoming environment, and know that their mental health and wellbeing is gonna be supported.

Alan Gottlieb: 42:41

Thanks for that, Clarence. And, I've gotta circle back to what I said in our conversation with Maya Legana last week, which is, it's all very well and good to celebrate, but pardon my French, but there's a lot of bullshit involved in the celebration in my mind because I feel like DPS is a, and the s and the state SPF is aggregating data in such a way that it's hiding the huge issues within DPS of low income kids and kids of color, and. Their growth and their learning status, which is still hugely subpar through no fault of their own, and that the district continues to try and paper that over and make it sound like everything's hunky dory when it's so far from that. So I don't wanna celebrate the green on the SPF because basically it's because. The demographics of the district are changing and the more affluent and usually white kids are knocking the ball outta the park and pulling up the averages in such a way that it makes things look better than they actually are for the kids who need DPS the most. Count me out of the celebration. Sorry.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 43:40

Let the record state everyone that Alan does not want to be slimed.

Alan Gottlieb: 43:45

I'm just a grumpy old man. What can I say? You

Clarence Burton Jr: 43:47

said it. Hey I res I respect where you're coming from, Alan. I'll never discourage someone for being a champion for lifting up those who are being left behind in our education system. Obviously, as I've shared I closely identify with that. I know from my own lived experience what that's like. And, you remind me of one of the what brought, in Denver one of my first experiences was being a part of a service program called City or Denver. For those who aren't familiar with it, the short of it is you work in schools with students who are at risk potentially dropping out and provide them academic and also near peer mentorship support. And I was working with this student at Montbell High School where I was placed. And though he was a 10th grader, he was doing math and reading at an elementary school level, but he had set a goal of. Being the first in his family to graduate from high school, which obviously struck my heart's dreams, knowing what that's like. So we were working together after school, working really hard to get him caught up. He was working so hard, but I could tell he was getting exhausted with it. And one day after school he kinda looked up at me and he said why should I care about this stuff? No one else cares if I do. That is also one of those moments, I think back on often because over time I realized that he was right, at the systems level. Here was a kid who I had worked with. I knew he was very capable, but he had been passed along and overlooked and undervalued, and I think we have a responsibility. To do exactly what you just did, which is to make sure that those kids know that we see them, we hear them, they are capable, and we're gonna continue to hold a high bar. And our leaders need to hold a high bar.'Cause we believe all kids are capable of reaching it.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 45:45

Thanks so much, Clarence. And I just wanted to correct what I had said earlier. I think I said the district SPFI, it's hard for me to remember. We don't have a district, SPF, so the state performance framework just for folks to know in reference to how Denver Public Schools as a district is doing. So I just wanted to clarify that. But th thanks so much for that comment, Clarence.

Clarence Burton Jr: 46:09

That was a great correction, Alexis, for the 10 of us that are so wonky. We knew the difference between the two.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 46:15

And they're all listening to the podcast, obviously.

Clarence Burton Jr: 46:17

I can guarantee you they're listening to the podcast. Yes.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 46:20

And we've, they're deleting those,

Alan Gottlieb: 46:22

those fear infuriated emails. Because

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 46:25

I, I just, I knew Alan was gonna get so many emails, like Alexis said, this district before, hopefully no one ever gets my email.'cause Alan's the one that, that gets all of these. Like corrections. Yeah.

Alan Gottlieb: 46:37

I think we've gone really long on this one, but it's been a great conversation. Clarence, thanks so much for your time and I just wanted to give you a chance if you had any last words you wanna say before we sign off.

Clarence Burton Jr: 46:47

No. I think I'd like to close again with just an appreciation Yes. For the opportunity to share a little bit about our work as an organization, our story, what we're trying to do for Denver's kids and educators and all of that. It's very important to have an opportunity like this, but really the appreciation again is for just the space that you've created. Keep this up. There is. So little opportunity to engage in real conversation. And so often, we default to these talking points, the gotcha stuff, the US versus them because it scores political points or it tests well in a poll or whatever it is. And it's really refreshing to be able to sit down and have a real conversation. And fundamental, I believe, the type of work we're trying to do. It's just like the type of work you're doing here, like you're doing it because you believe these role conversations are the only way we actually get to better outcomes for kids. So thank you for doing it.

Alan Gottlieb: 47:43

We're having a blast doing it. And thanks for the kind words, Clarence. Thanks. I think that'll do it for this week's podcast or this episode, and we will be back soon with another. We still have some candidates to try and wrangle among other things. So thank you so much for listening everyone, and we will be back soon.