Episode 23: Could an illegal DPS board committee make the superintendent’s contract voidable? A conversation with the Denver Gazette’s Nico Brambila

Transcript

Alan Gottlieb: 0:08

Hi, welcome back to the Board Hawk Podcast. Today we are actually going to be on the edge of some breaking news. Thanks to an excellent investigative story done by the Denver Gazettes, Nicole Brambilla, who is our guest today, and I hope I pronounced your name correctly, Nico.

Nicole Brambila: 0:23

I'll give you a press. It is Braila, but

Alan Gottlieb: 0:27

Okay. No, there you go. Perfect. Okay. Anyway, so I'm gonna read a quick bio of Nico as she is called, and then we will go into some questions about the story, which we will discuss in more detail in a minute. Nicole c Brola is an investigative journalist at the Denver Gazette, where she has covered Denver public schools since 2023. Her reporting revealed a pivotal email in which the superintendent pressed the board to hold a closed door meeting. Later ruled a violation of state open meetings law that became central to a lawsuit. Joined by six Colorado news organizations. She had also exposed superintendent Alex Murrow's,$100,000 bond funded corner office renovation and uncovered how the different district leveraged ownership of two dozen schools in a controversial lease financing scheme now facing a court challenge. Ramla joined the Gazette in December, 2022 to cover healthcare, but quickly shifted to education after parents learned of the district school closure list. She has been a journalist for 25 years reporting in Texas, California, Pennsylvania, and Colorado, on everything from immigration reform and the death penalty to abuses in nursing homes and guardianships her latest story published last week and reveals some questionable moves by the DPS Board to circumvent open meetings law while discussed seeing a contract extension for Superintendent Marrero. It's the latest in a series of revelations, brought to light by Nico about the board, and district's troubling lack of transparency in conducting the public's business. I just wanna point out, speaking of a lack of transparency, that, as our listeners know, we have been interviewing candidates for the school board election this November, and the only candidates who have openly declined to come on our podcast are the three incumbents, Sochi gaan, Michelle Kaleba, and Scott Esserman. So the lack of transparency goes beyond official policy positions and into their actual candor disease, which I think is incredibly self-defeating. I finally, last thing I wanna say before we get into questions within a conversation with Nico is coverage. Her coverage of DPS is notably more thorough and hard hitting than anyone else's except some of what we do. And I would say the conservative talk show host Jimmy Berger, who actually write it's a column as well for the Gazette, does some pretty good reporting on dps too. But it's nice to have somebody doing hard hitting investigative journalism on DPS in, that's in the mass media. So Nico, thank you so much and welcome to our podcast.

Nicole Brambila: 2:45

Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it, Ellen.

Alan Gottlieb: 2:48

It's great. Great to have you. Wanna get into the story because for people who haven't read it, they're probably wondering what the heck we're talking about. But the, it's basically the DPS board. At least some members seem to have gone to great lengths to shield the drafting of a new superintendent contract last spring from public scrutiny. Please walk us through your story and the sort of tortured process that they went through to avoid this coming out into the open.

Nicole Brambila: 3:12

Yeah, so when they emerged with the meeting with this contract the first question, Alan, was you, where did it come from? Because they'd only had one executive session. I've sat through their meetings and they don't hammer out things that quick, that quickly. And so I started making some general inquiries and, that's when an email landed in my lap and I verified it through the Cora process. It was written from Dr. Olson, president of the board, Dr. Olson's personal email account to Jeff Roberts, and I always mess up his coalition name, but

Alan Gottlieb: 3:49

Colorado Freedom of Information Coalition.

Nicole Brambila: 3:52

Thank you. I always have to copy and paste from my contacts. I could never, it's not handy to remember it. But anyway. And in this email back in April, it was April 8th and I remember that'cause it just happens to be my birthday, so I'll expect a card from you next year. Oh. And she's emailing Jeff to say, Hey, listen if two board members form this like committee and they get the pulse of all the other board members and get some feedback on this contract, is that going to be a daisy chain? And she used. Daisy chain, which shouldn't be surprising to anybody who's like watching education in Colorado. They would know that Douglas County School district got into trouble for this very thing just a couple of years ago. And and the fact that she's in her eighth year and can't run again, she's been president before, so she. She clearly knew enough to ask if this was going to be violating Colorado's open meeting laws. And Jeff responds yes. Just meet an executive session and hammer it out there, and then go into open debate about it and vote on it. The problem. Nico,

Alan Gottlieb: 4:53

could you just say what a daisy chain is? Before we go further.

Nicole Brambila: 4:56

Yes. No, thanks for interrupting me. So a daisy chain is they have to worry about breaking a quorum and a quorum, I believe is four. Stop me if I'm incorrect. And so to, to be under that threshold of a quorum. That's why they appointed just two members to. On this committee, and then they go and talk to one member and talk to another member and basically avoid the quorum, which demands that there is a public meeting. So when there's a quorum of any, anybody but any. Public official, but we're talking about the school board here. They have to agendize that and make it public. And the public it gets to intend it, whether virtually or in person. And so to sidestep all of that, they basically did what's called this daisy chain. And Jeff, of course. Gave his advice. The problem is this, that April 8th date, not just that it's my birthday, but it actually happened to be what, like six days after there had been a public comment and on that meeting day, they were supposed to go into executive session. And they didn't because when I wrote the story back in April, I had, was counting everybody that was talking that day and there was nine public speakers, not a single one of them, in favor of extending Dr. Eros contract early. And ostensibly what happened was the board president decided that she wasn't gonna be able to go into executive session if it was publicly as it's supposed to be agendized and the public knows about it. So they, they crafted this little workaround. What killed the story initially was I reached out to Dr. Or to Director Qba and asked, Hey, you took directors Youngquist and Sia to task when they had complained publicly in May about not being have any input into this contract. You took'em the task when was it that they had an opportunity to provide. Feedback and she said it was the executive session which killed the story because the executive session is secret for good reasons. And finding out information about what happens in the executive session is a major challenge. And the story was dead in the water until June when the board is discussing. Committees and having a f a framework around the committees. And there was some confusion and director Gaan asked the question and said the quiet thing out loud when she asked, okay, so is it a committee kind like what we formed for Dr. Ros contract? And I was like, holy

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 7:25

shit. Yeah.

Nicole Brambila: 7:26

I was like, okay. So that's what revived the story. At the Denver Gazette, we're really small but ambitious, which means these kinds of projects usually take me a little bit longer than a little bit bigger organization that's got a staff that doesn't have to jump when there's breaking news. Like the shooting in Evergreen, for example. Everybody stopped with her doing and committed to that. And there was several of those kinds of things that happened between then and when the story published. So anyway, it's rewarding that it's finally done and not an albatross around my neck anymore.

Alan Gottlieb: 7:58

Just a little more about so basically the story revealed that they did this incredibly elaborate process to avoid publicly discussing the contract. Some of the board members told you in your story that they felt left, completely left out of the process and Correct, not coincidentally, those are I think, the members who voted against it. Can you just talk a little bit more about that and about who actually was on this two person committee and how it came to be formed or how much what, whatever you know about that.

Nicole Brambila: 8:25

Sadly, I know very little and what we, what I do know about the committee is what director gaan said in that public meeting. It was two members and it was Directors Qba and Osa who was elected along with Ion Youngquist two years ago in that sweep that saw all the incumbent slews their seats. And aside from that I know, frankly very little there is some confusion about. When the committee meet met and how frequently they met, Dr. Olson's exclamation is that they never met because nobody gave them feedback. But Director Gaan told me in an interview recently that she did provide feedback to Kuala Baum. And so when I had, and you'll appreciate this as a journalist, I cornered director Olson because they're not always eager to respond to my inquiries. And so I caught her at a public meeting and she fumbled with her explanation.'cause I was asking those very same questions. But, when did you meet? When you know, when. Not just that, but when was the fricking committee formed? Because you would think that also would have to be done in a public setting. And she fumbled her answers and then said we, we never met. And once you send me your questions, I'm like, fine. I don't have a problem doing that because this, I re. I really wanna know, and I think the public really wants to know some more information about this. This isn't a Got you. Get you on your heels and just get, something quick that I throw out. I was spending some time on this and so we had like almost two dozen because they were numbered two dozen questions in an email to her and she blew me off saying she'd gotten COVID and then a week later. I see her at this public event. She remembers that she hasn't gotten back to me, right? So she goes, send me the questions again. And so I did. And then a couple of days later, something to that effect. The district response, she doesn't even respond to any of the questions. And it's one sentence less than 10 words. We did everything correctly and so there's a lot of questions. There's a lot of questions about how, why and when this committee formed.

Alan Gottlieb: 10:27

You still haven't been answered.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 10:28

Interesting.

Nicole Brambila: 10:28

Correct.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 10:30

Wow. Nico, first of all, thank you so much for writing the story. I received a lot of text messages, folks forwarding it to me, people I'm on, on group text with commenting on it and not a lot of surprise, but it's a great piece that you could actually find out some of this information. Thanks Alexis. Appreciate you saying that. Yeah. I am curious what have open meeting lawyers or experts in the field, what have they told you about the legality? Or likely legality of this action that the board took with the committee and the daisy chain.

Nicole Brambila: 11:03

I actually learned it. Great question. I learned this new expression that I hadn't heard of before, and it's called the Hub and spoke and it's, so there's two ways that you could skirt open meetings laws. One is the daisy chain that we already talked about, and the other is this hub and spoke where you have one person that basically reaches out to the whole board, gets their input, and then. And then compiles it and does something with that information. And from the attorneys that I spoke to and other experts in the field, is that Aaron Thompson, their general counsel. He was operating as the hub and the spoke were all the board members. So Aaron Thompson was getting information from, and Dr. Or Director Qba, Dr. And director are so similar. I keep fumbling those up, but Director Qba. I just promoted and then demoted her back down. Director qu Baum said that people were feeding board members were feeding information to Aaron Thompson. He's supposed to be for legal advice, not a secretary. And so the fact that he was functioning in a way best, as I understand it from these legal experts, he was functioning in a way to skirt open meetings, not provide legal. Advice or opinions to the Board of Education.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 12:23

And did they say that this is a legal action, like this is allowed?

Nicole Brambila: 12:29

Or the, no, just like the daisy chain, it's a way to skirt Colorado's open meetings law by basically assigning somebody to act as a secretary. Get all the board members' opinions about the contract and put it together, for something that gets put on the agenda and then voted on. The thing to, to really remember about the contract is how much it really favored the superintendent. Because they had 60 day, he had to give the board before making this change. In May, the board would have to have given the s the superintendent, in this case Marro, but anyone, for anyone in this case with if this contract gets used again, give him 60 days notice after changing the contract. Now he has 90 days notice if it's without cause. The other little juicy thing in the contract is that it used to just require a simple majority, so four members, of voting in favor of dismissing the superintendent. Now it's a super majority, which I think is five. And and so hammering out something like that from. A board as diverse as it is, just showing up with a contract like this reflects a lot of work being done behind the scenes.

Alan Gottlieb: 13:46

Alexis, I wanna jump out of order'cause I think there's a more logical order just with this one question. Given that legal experts think this was blatantly illegal, do you get a sense of whether anyone, and I guess I would include your news organization in this is going to pursue legal action over this, or is it just tut? You shouldn't have done that?

Nicole Brambila: 14:07

First of all I'm not gonna disclose what you know, our strategies would be at the different Gazette. And sometimes those strategies are above my pay grade, frankly. But what the attorneys that I spoke to did say was that if somebody sued the school district and won in court, it could negate the contract.

Alan Gottlieb: 14:28

Oh, interesting. That's interesting. Wow.

Nicole Brambila: 14:31

So it would require somebody filing a lawsuit, just like the news organizations did a couple of years ago, including the Deva Gazette and Colorado politics, our sister publication. We were part of that coalition of news organizations that sued the school district, but. I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, that didn't actually change anything. All it did was release the recording of the executive session, but the news organizations, frankly, that's all we were asking for. And so that's why that's all that we got. But had somebody else sued, it could have reversed the decision to return SROs or armed police officers to campus. This is following the east shooting in Yeah, in 2023. Because that was, it was a policy. Was, and it was so blatant. They emerged after a five five hour meeting with a co copies for everybody in the room of the new policy and stuff. It's like that was pretty obvious that they had done something hinky and behind closed doors. But somebody would've had to have had sued and specifically request to have that that policy overturned. And it could have been.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 15:36

Interesting. Wow. I just wanna say this back again because I think it's really important that the listeners hear it one more time. So what you're saying is, in talking to the attorneys is if somebody were to sue the district, let's say I, I sue the district, I'm a DPS, parent, I'm a Denver taxpayer or voter, et cetera, et cetera. I win the case then the contract that was signed by the board which included all the things you said, the super majority, the 90 day versus 60 day the payouts, it would be no void, it would be thrown out. The contract was no longer effective.

Nicole Brambila: 16:09

I think you'd have to specifically ask for it. So like the example that I used with the executive session the media only asked for the recording. So that's what we got. But yes, that's my understanding is that it could be null and void and would have to go to for another vote. So it'd be basically a do over for the district.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 16:25

That is fascinating. So I wanna talk a little bit more, you talk, you spoke about the releasing the executive session reporting after the East High School shooting. I would love to hear you as a reporter talk about what is the pattern you've seen around transparency. I know you can't share an opinion necessarily as much as I would love that. Maybe we can talk about that after the recording stops. Invite me

Nicole Brambila: 16:49

For a cocktail on you. Not

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 16:51

Yes. But could just maybe walk us through some of the things that you've witnessed since you started covering Denver Public Schools around transparency into Alan's point earlier. It certainly seems to be a theme that the school board members that are running for change continue to push either on the podcast or when they're interviewed by reporters or on their platforms, is this need for transparency? Can, so can you just walk us through some of the things you've seen that have maybe been countered to what a transparent board might look like?

Nicole Brambila: 17:19

As a member of the media media, my idea of transparency is probably different than everybody else's. Because for example. I, and I'm not actually paying outta my own pocket. I'm getting reimbursed, but I hate paying for public information. And like one, one thing that I had where with the school district was I'd asked for something, I don't remember. It was, and they came back and they said that it's gonna cost like$300 and it's gonna produce XA number of emails. And I was like, okay. So I got the approval from my editors and we paid it and then. And then when. When I got the response, it was like a fourth of the emails. So I don't remember the details, but let's just for the sake of this conversation, I'll make it up. Let's say it was a hundred emails and it was gonna take this many hours to, to review and redact a hundred fine redo review, and redact a hundred emails. And then when I actually get the response, it's only 25 emails. And I was like holy hell, what did we pay for if it was only. 25 emails. That's a big difference. And so I pushed that, and we ended up getting a reimbursement. The Denver Gazette got a reimbursement, but that's that kind of thing. And when I talked to legal experts at the time, part of the problem with. Colorado's open records law is that it really gives a lot of leeway to public institutions to say, oh yeah, we're gonna have a thousand emails and it's gonna take us x amount of hours to review this and redact it. And and you as the public and and me as the media. As a member of the media, we just have to go off of what they say and and until, if I had gotten the a hundred emails back or whatever it was, there wouldn't have been this fight from my perspective. But since there was this gross difference between how many emails they said were responsive to my request and how many I actually got, that's why I fought it because. It just didn't make sense to me that it would take as long to review a fourth of the number of the emails and be charged exponentially for that. And Jeff Roberts will say, that's what the, this he's not an attorney, but he's an expert on open meetings and records. He, he said that's, that's a way to squelch the public from finding out and not just the public. We don't have like endless pockets, uncle CHUs does. Our newspaper doesn't have endless pockets. We have to be judicious with our choices. And that's just one example. Another really frustrating example. If I can give you one more, Alexis please.

Alan Gottlieb: 19:43

As many as you have. Yes.

Nicole Brambila: 19:45

This is so good. Dr. Mero was talking about the disturbed student that shot the two administrators at East High School, and he was saying that he was on a safety plan. And so I put in a corp request for all the students that are on a safety plan. And right away I got a response back we have no records responsive to your request. And I'm like. There's at least one person

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 20:09

bullshit,

Nicole Brambila: 20:10

right? There's at least one. And sadly he committed suicide, but there's at least one kid that was on it. How can there be no records responsive? And so I had to like, talk to some folks on our team and we found this Colorado. Supreme Court decision involving Denver Public Schools and their safety plans. And come to find out that's the colloquial name for it. There's, and I don't remember what the actual name is. There's another name for safety plan. And so I put in a new court request and then I got the safety plan numbers and

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 20:42

It just,

Nicole Brambila: 20:43

oh my God. To me it illustrates that you gotta have the magic words to get information from the school district. Even with this story, if I can do one more, bend your ear a little bit longer.

Alan Gottlieb: 20:53

No please do.

Nicole Brambila: 20:54

Okay. I had the email already that Dr. Olson sent to Jeff Roberts. I had it, I put in the Quora to substantiate that it was a legitimate email. And it was denied what. They denied it. They said, we have no records responsive to your request. Because she sent it from her personal email. And so if she'd sent it from her DPS email, DPS would've had access to her email communications. But so the way that I understand how that works is that. And this happened with director Baldman when he was still on the the board similar thing. I'd gotten an email. I already had it. I was trying to verify it. So I did it through the core process and they said no responsive records. And I was like, I have this email, I have it. I put it in again and I thought that somebody said, didn't you just put this request in? And but I couldn't find it in my email. So I probably shouldn't say anymore about that. But anyway, so the reason why I submitted again is because the way the process works is when it comes from their personal account, the school district doesn't technically have the email, the individual does. So in this case, it was Dr. Olson who had the email, but once they. Asked Director or Olson, Dr. Olson, if she had this email, then they had it, but they had it after I asked for it. That makes sense. So if I asked what at 10:00 AM and they get it from her at 2:00 PM well, we didn't have it at 10:00 AM so they denied my WOW request. So I had to put in a second request for this email for the story that I just did. So that, so it's. It's yeah. Is that the letter of the law? Okay. But is it the spirit of the law? It's, it

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 22:40

sure sounds sneaky and it makes me wonder how much official district business is happening on the board members' personal email accounts.

Nicole Brambila: 22:51

So I have another story. Oh, you guys are giving all the juicy stuff, please. No,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 22:54

this is so good. I wish I had, I wish I had actual tea. I'm just drinking water right now'cause it's I'm loving this.

Nicole Brambila: 23:01

So this is a couple years ago. I was doing something on principles when they're in the RIF process. And and RIF is

Alan Gottlieb: 23:09

reduction in force, right?

Nicole Brambila: 23:11

Correct. Thank you. Okay. And what I wanted to find out is if we were really top heavy and the longer the short for my reporting is, yes, the district's top heavy. And the district in interviews when I did at the time. Recognize that, and we're looking to come up with like a rule of thumb quota, that if you have X amount of students, then. You can have a principal if you have a greater number than a principal and an assistant principal. Just like a rule of thumb to know so that you don't have, like at some schools like DCA they had all of these assistant principals out there and this very small number of, comparatively speaking number of students compared to East High School, for example. And so the way that I did this story and this. Oh my God, this took me forever to do. The school district has all this information out there, but it's in a PDF, but to really work with the data and examine something, you need it more in an Excel spreadsheet. So I by hand

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 24:05

oh, Nico? No,

Nicole Brambila: 24:07

by hand. I put this 200 page spreadsheet, three years, so 600 pages of spreadsheet data into an Excel spreadsheet that I could manipulate and move the numbers around and stuff. And I wanted to give the school district an opportunity to respond to this, but I didn't want to send my data because then, you guys could accord gotten my database and if it had taken me longer to actually get it to print, you could have scooped me,

Alan Gottlieb: 24:36

so this

Nicole Brambila: 24:36

is such a good scoop I've given you.

Alan Gottlieb: 24:38

This is Director

Nicole Brambila: 24:39

Olson asked me to send it to her private email.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 24:43

Oh my gosh. Huh.

Nicole Brambila: 24:46

And it was in my interest not to be corded. So I don't remember how I handled it. I know I went in person with my laptop. But yeah, so I think it happens more than we think.

Alan Gottlieb: 24:56

Yeah. So just tangential follow up. And that is you've talked a lot just now about, and given some great examples about how. Lack of transparency in the district in specifically reporting this story. What kind of responses and openness did you get from the three board members involved? The president, Carrie Olson, and the two members of the of the probably illegal committee, Michelle kba and Marlene Delarosa. How did they respond when you, how responsive were they to you? How transparent were they when you asked them for information?

Nicole Brambila: 25:26

They really fumbled with trying to come up with an explanation. All of them did. Director OSA said, oh, I'll have to check my email, which I'm not quite sure why, but she never got back to me. I did follow up again and included her, and she still didn't respond. And Director Olson fumbled with her response. Playing devil's advocate, she did say she came down with COVID the next day, so maybe she had like brain fog or something like that. But that was several weeks ago. I really bent over backwards and I do this with any big story like this to give them as much opportunity to to respond. And she punted she, she gave it to Bill Good. Who reports to, Dr. Marrero to respond, and there he responded twice because the first one was such a short sentence. We did everything right. I asked again specifically about whether they think that there's a concern that the contract could be undone, whether or not. There's, is Dr. Mero concerned at all that that they probably operated according to the legal experts I spoke to outside the bounds of Colorado's open meeting laws. And listen, I didn't just talk to any schmuck. I talked to Steve Zinberg, who is right, the gold standard here, and he represents us. And several other news organiz probably anyone who could afford him. He represents here in town. And, they came back with basically the same response. So really it was crickets qba because I was, and I still have to write this piece if she's listing. Just know that our conversation, I'm still working on writing it down, but, she basically responded with, we've, we did ev you know, this is the most transport parent board and oh my God, it was really tone deaf. But anyway,

Alan Gottlieb: 27:02

yeah. Wow. I'm just really interested as a fellow journalist, and you've got a breadth of experience. You've covered a lot of things in a lot of places. I really wanted to ask you and this is not, I'm not asking for your opinion here because I know reporters really don't like to give their opinions in public, and I understand that'cause I was the same way, but just analyzing your past experience, how would you rate this board and district within its transparency compared to other public bodies you've covered here and elsewhere? Are they the worst or are they like, yeah, I've had worse, or they're in the middle. I'm just curious about in your experience.

Nicole Brambila: 27:40

Probably the, they're not the worst, but they're up there. I would say the worst experience I ever had was in Pittsburgh and that ecosystem there is unlike anything I've ever seen. I would never want to go back to Pittsburgh, which means probably in the future I'm gonna find up my, a job in Pittsburgh. But yeah yeah, I think, listen, I'm not complaining because it gives me great fodder like what I just reported on. So yeah they're pretty, the way you have to word your requests, like when I was in California, I would I would speak with. The the spokesperson and say, Hey, listen, I'm looking for this kind of information and I have a conversation before I put in a formal request. And this school district doesn't do it that way. And they're not alone. When I was in Pennsylvania reporting a similar thing, nobody was California and Texas, where you could have a conversation with somebody so that you could have the magic language when you submitted a public information request. But yeah they're pretty up there.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 28:43

Okay, thanks. And I have a question that's actually for both of you Alan, since you also were a journalist and I just, do political commentary, which is I think a lot more fun'cause I can share my opinion with no regard, basically. I do these days as well. That's true. How nice, yeah. What I struggle with is. There are so few people who cover Denver public schools and cover education and do it, like we were saying at the beginning, like investigative journalism. And it's not their primary, it's not the only gig they have. They're covering a bunch of other things. They're covering education, right? Like there, there's a handful of education reporters in town. I just wanna hear from both of you, like, why is it that we're not getting. More spotlight on Denver public schools from journalists? Is it a funding issue? Is it bandwidth? Is it resources? Is it, the demise of democracy and journalism? Like what's the reason

Nicole Brambila: 29:36

Yes.

Alan Gottlieb: 29:38

To all? Yeah. I do feel like it's. It's partly a resource thing, but it's partly a choice thing. And I'm a co-founder of Chalkbeat, but I will say critically that I feel like Chalkbeat does not aggressively cover DPS. I don't think they like to do the kind of stories that, that Nico does. They just don't do them. And so that's the sort of, the proof is in the pudding. The Denver Post is a shell of its former self. I don't know what its resources are and circulation or anything else compared to the Denver is that but they just, I don't think they're education reporter. She does some good stuff, but she doesn't. Cover the beat full time. I don't think and the Colorado Sun does some sort of big Sunday type think pieces on education, but they don't cover it as a daily beat either. And so I just think it it's really unfortunate, I come from the days when it was a. Two newspaper town in a vicious newspaper where when I was covering DPS for the Denver Post and my good friend, now Brian Weber was my competitor at the Rocky Mountain News, and we used to go hammer and tongs at each other trying to beat each other. And that makes you do better work, right? If you've got other, somebody else breathing down your neck trying to beat you on a story, and the two newspapers are fighting for survival. It makes both reporters and both newspapers much more aggressive in terms of their coverage and digging up stories. There's just not that kind of you have to be in turn. Purely internally motivated. The way I'm sure Nico is just to pick ass and do good stories because it's fun to do. There's no external pressure the way there used to be.

Nicole Brambila: 31:01

And the other thing, if I could just add to that, Alan, the other thing, Alexis, is that you need people to drop an email to you. What happened to with me? You need people to, that were in the executive session. That will tell me on deep background that it was high level and that there wasn't any nitty gritty discussed in the March 20th executive session regarding Dr. Ros contract. And part of that. It takes time to, to develop sources and trust because more than the left, which is hated by the current administration. The only people who are hated worse than that are media people. And we have such this big, this bad rap and, it really takes some trust that. On both sides, trust that they're not feeding me bullshit and trust that if they tell me something off the record, that I'm not gonna, print their name in the newspaper. But then what coincides with that is, is that you get some people who refuse to talk to you once you start doing hard hitting stuff and like the incumbents getting them to. To talk to me, or the president. Everything seems to, and this is something quirky about Denver Public Schools, if I can just, make an observation, like I've never worked with somebody where all of the board members have to defer to the president. And every, all the information gets funneled back to Dr. Olson. And that's, to me weird. That's really, yeah.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 32:29

It's also not, you've been you're an elected official Yeah, exactly. You don't have to defer to one of your colleagues. That's strange.

Alan Gottlieb: 32:35

And I always say, yeah, and it's I've been following DPS for 30 years and reporting on DPS on and off for 30 years, and it's never been this regimented and chain of command as it is now. And I think it's because there's a lot of stuff going on that they don't want people to know, and it's never, it's real, it used to be easier to find stuff out than it is now, but luckily, yeah, as you have, having done it for as long as I have, I've got deep sources where I learned stuff. But and there's, there's enough people inside that organization not happy with its direction that. They're leaks for sure. I But people are scared too.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 33:11

E they're exactly. I, I don't know if it's considered a source when you're not a reporter, but I have a lot of people who are OSA and OSA are gossips in English and who, who will talk to me often, like as DPS employees about what they're experiencing their opinions about the board, their opinions of Dr. Ro. There, there's no way they would ever come on the podcast. There's no way they would go on the record. They're worried about losing their jobs. Sure. I think, my, my opinion is there is such a culture of fear that has been created that, a lot is said behind closed doors that we'll never see the light of day. And that's really frustrating.

Nicole Brambila: 33:49

Yeah. And we did, I don't think I put this in the story. You guys are getting a lot of scoops today. We did Cora, Aaron Thompson. They have this shield, and this is something else attorneys I spoke to said is that just because Aaron Thompson's in the room doesn't mean it's attorney client privilege. And it would seem that if you that's the case that. The Denver Public Schools thinks that by CCing the attorneys, and I'm trying to, will Jones, who was the former communications director for Denver Public Schools, said this, that, that they would regularly cc attorneys and stuff to shield it from the public. And I think it's those kinds of things that yes. Is the district putting out a bunch of information? Yes. Is some of it not understandable? Some of it overwhelming? Yes. But I think the. The administration under Dr. More, and he's the only superintendent I've covered, so I don't have any anybody to compare him to. The only superintendent here not that I haven't covered ones elsewhere, but there can't, there is, I think, a legitimate argument that board members can make that yes, we're putting all this, we're getting all this information out there, and we're even making it accessible where you can come online and watch us. You don't have to go into person. But then there are these other things that really chip away, I think, in the public's perception of the transparency of the school district when you can't get. Something from the Quora, or you've gotta have just the right language to I call it magic language, to get the Quora response or these kinds of things where they set up a committee, which she knew. With the response from Jeff Roberts that was a violation. And yet they appeared to go and they did it anyway. Did.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 35:31

Yep. So I will say one thing to give, it's not even the benefit of the doubt, but just to, to speak to the pervasiveness of this. Even before Dr. Mero came into office, or I'm sorry, came into the superintendency. So before I worked in nonprofits, most of my career has been in government working, in Denver public schools, working for former. Governor, now, Senator Hickenlooper, Senator Bennett, et cetera, et cetera. And some of the things you described, I think are pretty common behavior that staff are told. So I, I often, when there was something that was more politically sensitive, would. Copy the attorney or one of somebody from like the legal office on things, because that's just what you're supposed to do. And I So you're saying you're

Nicole Brambila: 36:12

part of the problem too, Alexis?

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 36:14

I absolutely, I'm part of the problem. Absolutely. And I will be honest and open about it. But that's that's the culture that was created. And I, so I just, all that to say I don't think it is just this administration, I think that this administration is doing much. More to shield the public from information. That I, having been somebody who would have been in the know, did not see the Bosberg or even Susanna when she was deputy due. And then the PDF thing of just was chuckling to myself.'cause I was like, oh yeah, I remember there would be like these massive spreadsheets. And of course you don't download the Excel version, you download it as a PDF. To be an asshole, to make it difficult for an I have done that. I will, I apologize to all of the attorney or all of the, I feel like all of the journalists listening, I am the asshole who has done that myself.

Nicole Brambila: 37:03

I knew

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 37:03

it. So it's it, having been a former government staffer who thankfully I've never had to sign an NDA on my, on that side of the house. I won't speak for the political side of the house, but on that side of the house, I've never, anybody wants to know anything about how to skirt like transparency, just gimme a call.

Alan Gottlieb: 37:20

Wow. No, don't do that. We've gone long. We've gone long here. I don't have any other questions I don't think. Do you have anything final, Alexis? No,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 37:27

this was so good. I would love to have you another time, Nico, and keep up the great work you're.

Nicole Brambila: 37:32

I appreciate you saying that. Like I think I was telling you y'all before I, before we hit play on this, so to speak, that the different Gazette is small but ambitious. And so pulling this kind of project outta my skirt, just takes forever. And then this story took a long time just because of all the secrecy around what did what they did. So anyway, I really appreciate you being interested in the story and reading it and and having me on today.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 37:56

Definitely generating a lot of buzz before. Before we let you go, if somebody is listening who is a DPS employee and wants to maybe share some information with you, what's the best way that they can do that?

Nicole Brambila: 38:07

You can email me Nicola, that's b, a as in boy, RAM as in Mary, B as in boy, IL a@denvergazette.com. And and if you're really worried, I do have, I don't remember it off the top of my head, but I do have a signal. We could set something up where I can get something encrypted too. Perfect. Thanks.

Alan Gottlieb: 38:25

Yeah, I've definitely had people in DPS only want to communicate with me that way and that's understandable. Okay. Thank you so much, Nico. This has been a fascinating episode. Maybe I'm a, because I'm a journalism nerd, I find it, I just love talking about this stuff. I hope everybody else find it as interesting and we will be back soon with another episode of the podcast. Thanks again, everybody and so long,