Episode 28: Denver Gazette investigative columnist Jimmy Sengenberger on the Youngquist report and its impact, implications

Transcript

Alan Gottlieb: 0:07

Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Board Hawk podcast. I am going to borrow a chapter from Brother Jeff Fard and his Facebook broadcasts and start this episode with a trigger warning because we have on with us today a bonafide conservative, heaven forbid. He's Jimmy Sangen Berger, who's an investigative columnist for the Denver Gazette. And an occasional talk show host on KOA radio and Khow. I'm sure Jimmy and I have some political differences, but his dogged reporting on DPS over the past few years has won my admiration and we agree on the direction and leadership of the district. Pretty much a hundred percent. He had some of the deepest sourcing on the beat and has broken a number of important stories. So when the investigative investigation report into DPS Board member John Youngquist, alleged racial insensitivity was released or leaked yesterday, Jimmy came to mind as a good person to have on to discuss and report the report. Its weaknesses and its implications for the board and the district. This should be a good, lively discussion. Jimmy, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 1:10

Thank you both. I'm glad to be here and thanks for the trigger warning. I'm sure for some folks it's important.

Alan Gottlieb: 1:17

Jim, Jimmy, let's start with just describing how you first became interested in writing about DPS and how you so effectively developed such good sources in the district. Because as I said, you've broken stories that nobody else has had.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 1:29

It's interesting because it really goes back to shortly after I joined the Denver Gazette in around this time of 2020, and I was very curious about some things going on that year with now former board member Andante Anderson, who. Was certainly a rabble-rouser in many respects. Very outspoken at that point. Was known for his advocacy, particularly in the Black Lives Matter movement and so forth, and I was very curious about how there would be controversies that would come up around. Tay Anderson where he would make a claim, he was pushed, he fell, whatever it is, and he would make the claim, it would splash in the press and then the press would leave it there and not do any sort of follow-up work. So my first column was the curious case of Tay Anderson specifically about. The media and how they would cover or not cover things regarding this young up and coming school board member and activist. Then a handful of months later, I noticed a lot of things going on in terms of how he was raising money on GoFundMe and so forth, and I had, who picks up the tab for Tay Anderson in February of that year and then suddenly the next year rather 2021, and then suddenly the allegations started breaking about. Sexual misconduct and so forth. That eventually led to relevant to our discussion, I think to a groundbreaking investigation into allegations many of which were not proven, some of which came out that were deeply disturbing, and that coverage of Te Anderson in terms of those allegations and that investigation and report. It metastasized into other things with the school board and so forth, and how I develop sources as a result of that. It's being the one person willing to critically cover Anderson. People started reaching out and that's really what it was, is rather than me necessarily going to people and saying, Hey, what do you think? It started as people reaching out to me and saying, Hey, I've got some inside information on this and this. And then it grew into more coverage. And now I do a lot of investigative work on other school districts too.

Alan Gottlieb: 3:53

And when you say people reaching out, I assume at least some of those people were inside the district as opposed to outside? Yes. Okay.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 3:59

Thanks Jimmy. And interesting, to Alan's point you are doing investigative journalism and I love how you call yourself an investigative columnist. I think I might have to steal that one. What are your thoughts before we jump into the investigation? On the coverage of DPS by the local media here.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 4:19

I think it's a mixed bag. I know some of the reporting by Nico, who I know you had from the Denver Gazette what a handful of weeks back has been really excellent. And I'm proud being in on the opinion side of the Denver Gazette, of that reportage that has been done in a number of areas, including relevant to this last week, was it last week? The racial discussion about. The use of racism as a weaponized term, which really has been going on in DPS for years, most notably when the aforementioned Te Anderson was on the board. But I've been disappointed at times in the media in Denver, especially around 20 21, 20 22, and the way in which coverage had been done. I thought it's been some cases trying to play more, I think, to the institutions and not ruffle any feathers. And I understand that impulse. You want to keep your sources or you want to keep good with being able to interview the superintendent or certain board members or what have you, but at a certain point. Your journalism needs to take the forefront and you need to be critical on issues that you report. And I think that's been largely lacking until some things recently like Nico's coverage in the Denver Gazette and so forth.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 5:36

Yep. I would agree with that. Thanks Jimmy. Pivoting to the report first reactions to the Youngquist report that just came out,

Jimmy Sengenberger: 5:44

I have

Alan Gottlieb: 5:45

to say, when you first read it, like what was, what hit you?

Jimmy Sengenberger: 5:48

It wasn't even just after I read it, it was as I was reading it, I kept thinking, I'm flabbergasted. What am I reading? This is absurd because for starters you have all of these anonymous people in the investigation who are presented, some of whom you can easily trace. Yes, you can figure out who is Aaron Thompson, the district's lead attorney who is Alex Marrero? Who is she school board members. Absolutely. Some of those board members. Are easily identifiable, but not even just that when you're a top leader in the district or you are a board member, you have no right to anonymity on something like this. We'll get to comparisons later, I'm sure with the Anderson report that came out in September thereabouts of 2021. But in that case, it was acceptable and appropriate for anonymous. Sources or witnesses rather, because you were talking about very sensitive situations and allegations and minors in particular. This is a very different circumstance where it reads like people who were complaining about dis either disagreements or they felt slighted because of how John Youngquist was talking to them or what have you, and it was much more like. To me piling on just grievances. And that doesn't justify anonymity in that context. Maybe there are certain witnesses where it makes sense. There, there are regular, everyday staffers that you wanna be very careful about. Okay, I can understand that. But when you're talking about the district's chief of staff or attorney or board members there's no explanation for that except that the intention here. Was just to throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. And some of the stuff that's contained in the report is like, how is this even a finding that is worthy of listing here? Especially when it's something like, oh achievement numbers are never enough. And I'm like, good. They shouldn't be. They are terrible at Denver Public Schools and other school districts, not just DPS. And so he's supposed to just accept a little bit of a slight improvement and say, all right, let's move on. Thank you. I don't think so. Not if you're actually holding them accountable. So those are just a few of my top line thoughts.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 8:14

Thanks, Jimmy. And I would agree with a lot of that. The one thing I would push back on is the anonymity. When they started this investigation, in theory there was the opportunity there, there was po, the possibility that there was overt racism happening. And if in my perspective, if you're, let's say a woman of color in the district and you, whether it's, you're the deputy chief of staff, the chief of staff, you're worried about your job, you're worried about like next steps. You're worried about being outed and if you were experiencing like true racism and we'll get into what defining what that is or is not in a minute, and we probably all have different opinions on that then. Then yeah. I think that we should protect the anonymity, but I would agree that like generally speaking, if you are top brass in the district. You need to like, one, you need to like, respond to the investigation. And two, I have much bigger questions about collusion, which I hope we can jump into.'cause I think for me that's my first reaction was it was hard for me not to immediately assume collusion with the senior leaders who report to Dr. Marro because they have everything to lose by disagreeing with their boss and. A lot to gain by aligning with his messaging, especially if John Youngquist is pushing back on them, is questioning them. And let's be clear, John ran on accountability. John ran on holding the district accountable. Before I turn it over to Alan, I just wanna read the very last two paragraphs of this investigation, because to me,

Jimmy Sengenberger: 9:39

yeah, please. It's a

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 9:40

how many, it's a 29 page document. I'm gonna read the last two paragraphs, which are very short. But this is what they came up with and this is what$80,000 got us. We are unable to reach a conclusion as to whether Mr. Youngquist deliberately acted in a biased manner towards some district leaders of color based on available evidence. We note some of the evidence obtained by obtained may lead to the inference that Mr. Youngquist conduct is deliberate. Specifically, Mr. Young's conduct has not changed despite staff and board members specifically addressing concerns with him. Mr. Youngquist failure to follow up with witnesses one or two about their concerns and Mr. Youngquist general dismissiveness of allegations and seemingly disingenuous responses during his interview. Creating the perception that he did not find them to be import because of his mission as a board member. However, this is the last paragraph. However, the investigation did not uncover any evidence of overt or intentionally biased conduct by Mr. Youngquist. Moreover, it is conceivable that Mr. Youngquist conduct, in particular, pushing back on data and asking critical and or repetitive questions. Is consistent with what he views to be his mission as a board member.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 11:00

That's it. That's the key thing is that he views his role as a accountability guy. I'm supposed to hold the district accountable, which to me, quite frankly is refreshing. As I read this report, guys, I kept getting the sense that employees are so used to not being critically evaluated, that when you have a board member or two. Say, okay, I'm gonna dig in a little deeper and I want more data, and I wanna look at these things and ask these critical questions. You might get a little upset because for the first time ever, you are under a microscope. Or you feel like there's a little bit of pressure, and quite honestly, that's necessary. Everybody has that. In the private sector where you're trying to get your job done, you have your boss watching over you, and they'll cut you slack on things. Sometimes you're not gonna get slack cut for you. That's how it is. But far too often, and I'm a big advocate of public schools, but far too often in our K through 12 public education system. It's like there's no room for accountability. It's just let's throw money after it and call it good. And then put a nice green light, for example, on the data. Oh, we're accredited suddenly green as the district barely, just barely, and at 57.6%. Woohoo. But let's celebrate that. If you have a board member who's not celebrating that, and I will note that at the school board meeting following that report, Kimberly, SIA and John Youngquist were, I think the only two people in the room, not just on the board, who didn't have their the ribbon, the green ribbon on in celebration didn't, and I think board members were a little upset.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 12:55

That's a good, I didn't notice that. That's a, that's really telling.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 13:00

In fact, they had it right on the table. To them, it was in front, didn't, you could see it. They didn't put them on. I thought that was good because. Yeah it's nice to say, okay, we've got this marker, but when, for a few days you change your website to the color green to celebrate that's like putting, forgive it, but put putting lipstick on a pig in the sense that you're not getting where you need to be. They don't want that accountability and they're probably fed up with all the parents that have been looking at the school safety issue from PSA and other groups going, you're not doing the job that you should be here. And you don't like that, especially if you're a government bureaucrat. There's my conservatism kicking in. Here we go, Jimmy. Now

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 13:43

it's gonna get interesting and I, here's where I'll start pushing back on some things. And ultimately I'm gonna end up agreeing with you to watch this. Yes, private industry obviously has quotas and accountability, and I would argue really good statesmen, really good. Elected officials and principals also have high expectations and high accountability. Okay. And I've had the pleasure of working for some really tough bosses who are, leaders in this state and in the city, and they do have high expectations. Some of them are assholes, but that's, I hate to say you need to gr have some thick skin when you are working for a principal. I don't mean a school principal, the principal of a large organization, whether it is a Fortune 500, a school district, a city you have to be able to answer the tough questions and I would much rather have. A superintendent and a board member and an elected official who is questioning data, who is asking the tough questions, and who is making sure that when they get up and they, put their name behind the data, they put their name behind the programs and the things that are doing we're doing to serve students, they better be a hundred percent confident in what they're saying.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 14:54

No I agree with that. And I would surmise, and Alan, you've known him a heck of a lot longer than I have, but that when John Youngquist was a principal, he probably had high expectations for the people who were at his school and to his credit at East. And I will say, I recall just, I'm gonna put this out there, that. I am a product of the public school system. I graduated from Grandview High School in the Cherry Creek School District in 2008, with the exception of preschool in Albany, New York. The only point at which I went to a non-public institution was when I attended Regis University from 2008 to 2011, right up in North Denver. But I was in the. Public school system and Cherry Creek schools. When we moved here, starting midway through fifth grade from New Jersey, and I had a great education at that point. That was still when Cherry Creek Schools was a cream of the crop district. Now it's, I say, thriving on an antiquated reputation, and if you look at the scores, it's almost as bad as DPS. But what I recognize is I had some phenomenal teachers and I ran an educational nonprofit as well that worked with. Fifth graders in fifth grade classes in Denver and all around where we. Helped educate kids on the US Constitution and American government for seven years. It was called the Liberty Day Institute. And I would go in and speak to kids and I would see what the experience was like for teachers. And I have to say, it was a really an eye-opening experience, especially when I would go into Denver schools and learn more and see more about the kinds of environments that teachers are dealing with. And quite honestly. I think one of the failures of DPS is that they have been trying to appeal to the whims of teachers, union bosses rather than actually supporting teachers time and again and they deserve so much. And I don't think that we have gotten that for many reasons, but I digress.

Alan Gottlieb: 16:51

There's a lot to digress about when you're talking about DPS. I want to, I wanna digress back to what something we were talking about a few minutes ago, and then I'll throw another question at you, Jimmy. One is when, when you think about the thin skins of the staff in regards to the way. John allegedly talked to them. I just, again, I say this at, in almost every podcast I've been around DPS for a really long time, 30 years. And when I think about what some of the board members who've been on the board in previous times, how, compared to John, the kind of questions they would've asked and how and how they would just blister staff. They would, I'm thinking in particular, going way back, Rita Montero, she was tough. And, theresa who we just had on, she didn't suffer fools, Elaine Berman, Barbara O'Brien, all women, interestingly enough. But these were tough school board members who did not, they did not accept non-answers or half answers to, to their questions. And then the other kind of point I wanted to make is that and I wrote this in the column that's on Board Hawk today, that I wrote the parallels to the way Marrero staff relates to him and the board relates to him and the way. Trump's appointees and cabinet members r you know, respond to him. There, there are alarming parallels to me from opposite sides of the ideological spectrum, but it's the same kind of rule by fear and intimidation and kind of, of a fraternity of. Of, of bullies. So it's weird. Lemme say something

Jimmy Sengenberger: 18:14

about that if I can. And also the thin skinness Trump is notoriously thin skinned I will admit that I voted for President Trump, but at the same time, I do something that shall we say. Supporters of Dr. Marrero don't do, which is I frequently criticize and hold Trump to account. You can look at the Denver Gazette. I've had recent columns from Tina Peters and mail ballots to trade and tariffs and what's going on there? I took off. Conservative radio listeners frequently when I go on and criticize different things about President Trump, because whether you vote for somebody or not, or whether you've approved them for the position of the superintendent or whatever, you have an obligation to hold them accountable more than anybody else and to say, wait a second, this is way off the mark. And I don't see that when it comes to people who would support. The superintendent and say he needs to be there for a longer period of time or what have you, to the point where. In January, they put new metrics in for evaluating the superintendent's performance that he helped to shape. Then a few months later they say, ah, don't worry about the performance metrics. We're gonna extend his contract and give his job even more protections. And then in October or thereabouts will eventually get to an evaluation. After we've already extended his contract. And then we all know, particularly because of Nico's reporting in the Denver Gazette about how that contract was shaped behind closed doors. And the role of witness number one, Aaron Thompson, the the district's lawyer who I wrote a column about just a month ago saying, when will DPS board reign in district's lawyer? You wanna talk? About thin skinned, I'm sorry I'm being really blunt right now, but this is somebody who can't take criticism after consistently over and over time and time again for years failing the school board and the district in terms of his legal advice.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 20:24

Okay. I have to just make one comment. Yes. That the irony that when he was first critiqued by his colleagues on the board for saying that there might be. That the board may be violating open meetings law. And then fast forward however many months later we're now at, and Nico's reporting has like really clearly shown there is likely, it is likely and many legal scholars have weighed in that there has likely been violations of Colorado open meeting laws.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 20:56

Yeah. Full circle. Can we talk about that for a minute or Alan Absolutely. Did you wanna get to your question? That Okay. Let,

Alan Gottlieb: 21:01

Let's talk.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 21:02

And I think this is very important because one of the big reasons that this ball got rolling is because of Aaron Thompson and his claims that he was making about the impressions he got going back to just after John Youngquist took on his position on the board in late 2023. Let's go back 2022 in December. There is a school board executive session that they go into. My understanding is coincidentally, interestingly enough, it was where the likes of Tay Anderson, Scott Erman and Michelle Qdoba were very critical of the superintendent. Who now they don't Dane criticize, but back then behind closed doors, they were ready to tear them a new one. And Scott Baldman on the board votes, no. And I played this audio multiple times on the radio. He votes no because he says, I don't know. I don't have any idea what we're gonna be talking about. Which is clear on the, as a violation of open meeting laws when a board member doesn't even know why they're going behind closed doors to have a conversation.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 22:08

I forgot about that. I totally forgot about that. Jimmy, you're really bringing us back.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 22:13

In fact, I think I'm the only one who really pointed that out in very many places and when I interviewed Baldman, when he was a candidate, I played that clip and said, kudos to you. Good job for speaking up in that. Hey, fast forward four months or five months and you have the tragic, horrifying shooting inside East High School. And I say inside because of course the case of Luis Garcia just a month before. And. This tragic shooting happens on March 22nd and March 23rd. They go behind closed doors. They have an illegal executive session that we know for a fact is illegal.'cause they were required to release most of that session in a recording. And that was something where you had board members and Thompson and they were all defensive. Of it. No, we didn't do anything wrong. Scott Erman has been so offended at the idea that they were doing something wrong with going behind closed doors in executive sessions that are covered for folks who don't know. The statute is very clear as to the circumstances under which you're allowed to do this, and then what you're supposed to say in for public notice. Here's the information on the agenda, the minimum that's required. Then you can go behind closed doors and have the that discussion. And then we started getting commitments. And this is something I really got from Scott Baldman and Charmaine Lindsay when they were running, and I interviewed them both and we talked a lot about the executive sessions and they were like, yeah, we probably need to scale that back. Of course, you. Both of them ended up losing in the following or the upcoming election then in 2023. But on that issue and also on SROs, I think they came to understand that change needed to happen to their credit. And then you've had more issues of executive sessions ultimately getting to the way that the contract was crafted. And to me. If you're negotiating between two parties and the same lawyer is essentially being the attorney for both parties, that in and of itself is some shady business going on.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 24:22

But Jimmy, not Jimmy, no, it's that's a racist claim because let me tell you, it Aaron is the, according to, sochi, our first ever black legal counsel. So to make such an assertion that there maybe should be separation is racist. Not to mention, I said this last time, he's not the first. Darren's Carroll was the first. And you can't just be calling people, calling things racist, just because the person in a position of power is black or brown or a not white makes me so frustrated

Jimmy Sengenberger: 24:55

the. Let me just put it this way. Competence knows no color. There are black people, white people, Hispanic people, you name it, who are extraordinarily competent. Then there are people across racial boundaries who are differences, who are extraordinarily incompetent. Quite honestly, I have not seen evidence that Aaron Thompson is particularly competent at his job, and that has nothing to do with his race. In fact, when in the report, when there's this notion that you should be offended because Aaron Thompson gives legal advice, and John Youngquist wants a second opinion, after Thompson has repeatedly. Given erroneous advice to the school board and then some. I think not only is that a good idea. That it should be a standard practice, especially when you're talking about an issue, like a contract negotiation where you should want a second opinion. Or quite frankly, on executive sessions, if the school board says, we are want, we wanna go into executive session, and Thompson says, it's okay, I'd like a second opinion too, and I don't care if that second opinion that person is black or white or what have you. What matters is the legal advice and the track record for. The lawyer, we have extraordinary attorneys who are black and white, you name it, and they do a great job and you want that advice. You don't necessarily want the advice of the lawyer, regardless of color, who's led you astray time and time again. And that's what's so frustrating is that there's been this sort of shield around Thompson and the reason why he is witness number one, that's very discernible because of public reporting that even the Denver Post is done and so forth. But it's that. He can't handle that criticism. If you don't just accept that he's doing a good job, then you are wrong and you are probably racist and you need to be drawn in courted. I mean it's absurd and that's one of the things in this report that really stood out to me as saying. Yeah. No I don't think that this is the smoking. I don't wanna say that, but that you could think it was.

Alan Gottlieb: 27:26

So I wanna this is all really interesting stuff and I think a lot of it's looking back and I wanna look a little forward. I think a really important question about this investigation that needs to be sussed out is, what do you believe motivated? Alex Marrero to request this investigation in the first place. What was behind it? What was under it? Because it doesn't make sense. I know he had this paranoid ranting letter of saying John was after his job and all of this, and that may be part of it, but there's more to it than that. And I'm curious, Jimmy, what your take is on why. Why did he want this report, this investigation done?

Jimmy Sengenberger: 27:59

Obviously it's pure speculation, but if you look at how flimsy the report is and the kinds of claims that are made, I think he wanted something that would just pile on a whole bunch of claims and innuendo and so forth that then could get a censure vote, which I expect that in this special meeting Wednesday, that they will vote to censure John Youngquist. Then that can be used. I would doubt that he's gonna say, okay, bye. I am stepping down. I don't think that's anything that he would consider, but it can dog him to, for people to say as they have for Tay Anderson, the first board member to be ed. He was censured, this and that for how he treated staff. That's an easy line that you can throw into any sort of article or what have you. And I feel like that's the kind of thing, it's easier to put a report together to smear somebody's reputation through an investigation then for you yourself to go out on a limb and do especially when you are technically the employee of him and six other people.

Alan Gottlieb: 29:05

I agree with that assessment and I would go a couple of steps farther. One is there, I see two, and this is, again, speculation. I will admit that upfront, but. There's two scenarios under which I could see it being particularly useful to the superintendent and his senior staff and the loyal board members to have this report out there. One is, when it comes time, perhaps if there's a new board seated after the election Tuesday. It now requires a super majority of five to remove the superintendent. If somehow there are five votes, but John, a case can be made somehow that John shouldn't vote because it's been revealed through this investigation that he's tainted and that he's got this nefarious motivation behind it and trying to keep John from voting. That's idea number one. But even more troubling to me is the possibility that, and this comes out in. I think some of the things that, that Youngquist said in his statement or in the articles, but that there are three very serious federal lawsuits the district is facing that could cost them millions and millions of dollars. And in all of these cases, John is likely to be a seminal witness because of his former position at East High School and because of his, the report he wrote about safety that the district actually contracted with him to write and the five letters that he wrote to Alex Marrero saying. Before the shooting saying things are not okay with the removal of SROs and no plan to replace them you need to do something. His report was buried, the letters were ignored, and he is going to be, he knows, he, I think he's been told he's gonna be called to the, at a very key witness in all three of these suits and the Kurt Dennis firing the other one. So if you can discredit him or do something to discredit him that, that will certainly help the district's case a little bit.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 30:49

And also in regards to executive sessions, going back to that with his claims earlier this year, that the school board had again, violated executive sessions, of course. Something that or the rules regarding executive sessions, open meetings, laws of course, again at the advice and consideration of Aaron Thompson as the district's lawyer. And that kind of a microscope is not something that they have wanted, especially from one of their own. And I and I have to say, I don't like this drama, and I don't think any of us do that. Like whe whether you think he's done wrong or not, in some respects. We saw this for four years with Tay Anderson on the board where that was all that it was about. It's almost like to me, they want to find cover for the fact that kids cannot read or do math at grade level in DPS that are not proficient. That this provides the cover because rather than talking about how to improve academics as Youngquist wants to do, or how to really improve public safety or address discipline issues, instead we're talking about interpersonal squabbles and claims that are being thrown about regarding one of the board members that are very debatable at a minimum.

Alan Gottlieb: 32:08

So to follow up what I was asking about,'cause this is something that does concern me a great deal. What do you think the possibility of this investigation and the, what's gonna be a shit show tomorrow? I'm sure of board members like Scott Esserman, chewing John, and Sochi GAAN chewing. John out for being such a terrible person. What do you think about the potential chilling effect, not only on him going forward, but on other board members, newly elected board members who are just gonna be gun shy about saying anything because they'll get put through this meat grinder.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 32:39

Oh, with, without a doubt. And I think we saw that during the four years I was mentioning as well. Of a lot of intimidation and people going I'm not so sure that I want to put myself out there. And I certainly think that the timing of this relates to the election coming up next Tuesday in a signal or a shot across the bow to the board member. Candidates that are challenging the six union candidates. And I say six because Scott Esserman and Michelle Cuttle Baum were given a lot of money when they were endorsed four years ago by the union. And just because the union has seen how toxic they have become and decided not to endorse them, doesn't mean they're not still union candidates. They are still union candidates without a doubt. But I look at. Exactly what you described, and I can't help but think it's to say, if you do join the board, you wanna keep a lower profile and not put yourself out there in accountability because you may be pilled for what you say in that regard.

Alan Gottlieb: 33:44

Yeah I do worry about that a lot. I'm curious what you think the likelihood is of this badly backfiring on Marrero. And his team.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 33:56

It's always hard to say with these things, but I think to me it from, for the average person who has heard so much chaos about DPS that, like for years now they probably look at this and just say, oh my gosh, another thing. What is going on with this board and this superintendent? Why can't they just focus on making sure that our schools are good and providing safety and so on and so forth. And I think adding to that gives the sense of, boy, this superintendent, I heard that he got an extension and now we've got this. And I do think that it will likely backfire. Who knows what will happen. Tuesday. Elections are so fickle to predict and decide, what's actually going to happen. Although I do think it's telling that, at least in terms of direct contributions to candidates, and I wrote about this in the Denver Gazette column last week. The teachers union, the DCTA and the CEA, the state Union have both given significantly less to their four candidates this year, dramatically less to their four candidates. This year, I calculated$242,000 that they donated to Olson, QBA Esserman, and GAAN in 2021 and this year, 78,000, at least as of my calculation given to their four candidates. That may be a sign that the union is saying, eh, are we really gonna win this election? Do we wanna spend as much money this go around as previously? Maybe there's a consideration. Who knows? I definitely don't think this report actually helps in the way they think it does.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 35:37

That's a great point. What are your predictions for the election, Jimmy?

Jimmy Sengenberger: 35:42

I think I just told you, I don't have any prediction. Yeah. I really think that there's a good chance of flipping a couple seats. Which ones I don't know. But I feel like there's enough frustration. One of, one of the concerns when you, 2023, tragedy often galvanizes people for change. And that's what we saw in the flipping of three board seats that year. My question was two years later now in 2025, would there be enough to motivate the turnout that would want change? And I think there has been, and I think this report and what's going on with the infighting and so forth, and the squabbles is adding to that now. That gives a good chance for at least flipping a couple of seats. But I'm gonna hedge here and say I don't have a crystal ball and have no idea what will actually happen. I just feel like there's at least cause for some optimism for change.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 36:41

I think it's really hard to say, especially in these off year elections when voter turnout in Denver is just so incredibly low. Everywhere is low. Absolutely. And in some of these district seats where you even have lower voter turnout. It could be 50 votes, it could be 75 votes, make the difference. So I do think there's some that we won't have a, an answer election. I, there might be some we don't have an answer in, the next day. Can I

Jimmy Sengenberger: 37:02

address another point we haven't tackled regarding the report? Please. To me, one of the things that's so striking is this report is ostensibly all about how. John Youngquist Mistreats employees of the district, right? How he treats staff. I wanna go to 2022 when DPS as a district decided to close the J-R-O-T-C program at Manuel High School and move it to Northfield, and there was a meeting in May of that year. Where Scott Erman and Tay Anderson at the time, the secretary and vice president of the school board respectively, along with the Principal Glover, Mr. Glover and the students who were part of the J-R-O-T-C program and apparent and Lieutenant Colonel Gordon Crawford, the head of the program there were all gathered together and they knew. Erman and Anderson going in there, they had to know because everybody else who actually did digging knew Chalkbeat reported on it, that the district had made this decision, particularly because of, if I recall correctly, a decline in the enrollment participation in that program. But Erman and Anderson made it all about race. Colonel Crawford is racist, in fact, and I have a column that I wrote. I got it right in front of me in August of 2022. Where they specifically talked about this being racially motivated and presented themselves as heroes. One thing that's fascinating that Glover. Tries to protect or to stand up and defend his employee in effect. There's a relationship with the Army and the school district and so forth, but the instructor of this program and Anderson says, I get you trying to protect your employees. I'm not gonna let you take that bullet. If it's true that this colonel has pushed out kids, he must own that in front of all of us. Then Anderson said, as a board member, we were not privy to this decision, and Erman says, why can't we get an honest answer on who made this effing decision? And not only that, but you have them specifically excoriating in that way. The instructor. And oh, and something else Tay said was, but sometimes grown men gonna have to answer to their grown choices. Now, this was a flagrant violation of board policy for school board members to criticize employees like this so much. So that's, God Esserman even said that he even admitted to it. Saying we're not supposed to be, and this was at the meeting. We're not supposed to be currently involved in operational decisions, but to hell, if I'm gonna stay silent when I see something going on, that is exactly what we say in Word in DPS that we are not doing. And he also said tay and I are committed to this making themselves heroes. If there's any possibility of ensuring that this is just a program, but a First Sergeant Posey, who was a black leader of the program that had been removed from the position. We'll continue here. We will make that happen. So without getting into any more details, and I have the full recording still of that meeting, that going back to sources that had been sent to me by a source who was like, this is outrageous. I have this recording. I want you to to take it and run with it. And there's more. And so Sochi Gaan, real quick. Sochi Gaan, president of the school board at the time, approached Erman. He criticized her and yelled at her and was like, no way I regret voting for you for president. And clearly there was a recognition there of the vote, of the violation of policy, but was an investigation done, was anything actually taken as far as action to address Anderson and Esserman for this public humiliation of a district employee in violation of board policy? No, absolutely not.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 41:27

That's a great example of

Alan Gottlieb: 41:28

hypocrisy. Thank you.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 41:29

And to lean further into the hypocrisy, I'm just a member of the public. I'm not employed by DPS, but it's very ironic to me that in the summary of determinations by the law firm, the first item is evidence that supports the allegations is some, it says, some current and former district staff members described Mr. Youngquist behavior towards them as belittling, dismissive, or condescending. Those three words are exactly how I would describe Dr. Alex Morero anytime he himself is questioned by a member of the public. A member of his staff. Yeah. Other elected officials. I shared this on the podcast many months ago when I spoke at public comment, gosh, this must have been at least a year ago. And I, at this point, I don't even remember what I was speaking on. But he came up to me and said to me at the end, at the end of my my comment something along the lines of. Where was the advocacy when Tom Boberg was in office? Where was the advocacy that, oh it was about I was making public comment about the evaluation and and you know how like the tomatoes that, like how many tomatoes that the district was growing, basically talking about what we should and should not include in the evaluation. And he basically came up to me and he was. Belittling, dismissive and condescending to me as a DPS parent, a former district employee, somebody who has a background in education policy, somebody who has advised board members and superintendents. And I don't say this to tout my own horn, but the fact that you have a superintendent who in the open is dismissive, belittling to people where there's witnesses around what is happening behind closed doors. How does a DPS parent ask for the cing of a superintendent who is belittling, dismissive and condescending to them? My question behind the closed

Alan Gottlieb: 43:27

doors of a$100,000 soundproof office.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 43:30

This reminds me of that meeting during the debate over returning school resource officers to DPS. And then new Chief Ron Thompson Thomas, excuse me, was giving a presentation to the board. And for 18 minutes, Michelle Qba went on her soapbox to a point where, understandably. Then board President Sochi Gaitan said, cutting your mic like this is too much. Tried to rein her in to, to stop and move on. You had a guest speaker that was there, the chief of police, te Anderson, made a big stink, said, arrest me, and he went down and I was in the room watching this and it was stunning to see him pointing his finger and yelling at staff. That had complied with the order redirection of the president of the school board to cut qua Baum's mic. Now, how abrasive, condescending, belittling, et cetera, can you be for a school board member to leave the days, go over to the staff in front of everybody else and yell at them. For following the direction of the school board president that was absolutely abominable. And I'll remember Albertus Simmons got up and said, you all should be ashamed of yourselves. And this is a clown show.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 44:51

Yep. And okay, the last one I'm gonna say speaking of the hypocrisy, I can guarantee you the way that Scott Erman and Tay Anderson treated Susanna Portaba when she was superintendent of Denver Public Schools. Is nothing compared to how John Youngquist has treated Alex Morero and his staff.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 45:12

Wasn't there a letter with Hancock and the former Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan and others that the after Susannah was pushed out that said, this is wrong, and blamed the board for essentially forcing her out. How do you get that kind of a, of attention from prominent people? The mayor, former secretary of Education under Barack Obama saying, look, this is wrong. If not for exactly what you just described, Alexis,

Alan Gottlieb: 45:42

and I don't think it was that sermon because he wasn't on the board at the time. Susanna was pushed out.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 45:45

Oh, you're right. It was it was Tay Baldman. Yeah, you're right. Jen Bacon and, yeah, you're right, Angela.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 45:55

Good. Good point. A

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 45:57

yeah. Good good. Call out

Jimmy Sengenberger: 45:58

the time all blends together sometimes.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 46:01

I know. I know. Especially when

Jimmy Sengenberger: 46:01

you're on your. How many years of dysfunction in many respects on this school board? Six. Six

Alan Gottlieb: 46:06

years? I'd say six years. Yeah. That's what I thought. Yeah. Yeah. Jimmy, thank you so much for coming on. There's, we could go on and on because there's still a lot we haven't touched on, and we will at some point have you on again, I'm sure. Any last thoughts about this report, about the future direction of the do the board and how, I guess the last question, which is on our list that we didn't ask was how, what is it gonna take to get this district and this board to be functional again?

Jimmy Sengenberger: 46:31

Next week, you need to have change ideally of four. New board members that will right the ship, but at the very least get two on there to give a majority of Ford that are willing to be more questioning and circumspect and a, and holding leaders accountable. And those board members who get elected need public support because if they're gonna be going through a sort of trial by fire. They may be a little more averse than John Youngquist because they're not used to the institutions or they're not used to how the district operates and the way that an esteemed former principal is. But I'll say as well as a final thought, bringing back full circle because I feel compelled to, to Tay Anderson in that report, there will be a temptation to say this report, this was an investigation. This was exactly, it's the same kind of thing as what went on with Kay and everybody took that at face value and I would say go back and unfortunately there is a lot of it that is completely redacted from that report, but I would go back and reread that. It's online or reread my columns in the Denver Gazette that I have PO had posted about it. And the specific details. The fact that he told one of these teenage girls of the couple that in particularly he had tried to date, don't be a pussy, just come is something people don't recognize like they say in the media. This is one of my biggest gripes. Going to your question earlier, Alan, about media coverage. They'll say, oh, he flirted with teenagers. One of these girls said that she was scared to go places because she was worried she would bump into Tay Anderson. These are minors, and this was a guy who at that point was on the school board and the rest. And when you look at that report and how that was done and how it was laid out and the specific things involved there and the investigation and the reasons for that investigation versus this one, it is not even night and day one isn't a whole other galaxy from what we have seen now. And I think that's just some important context to keep in mind, especially as you see the meeting. This week where they will inevitably censure John Youngquist and then the conversations that happen after, because Tay Anderson was the only other board member to be cd the, and the first one. And by the way, that was one that was not easy for certain members of the board. I remember being in the room.

Alan Gottlieb: 49:03

And

Jimmy Sengenberger: 49:03

seeing then president of the board care, Dr. Kerry Olson, literally stopped for 10 seconds, clearly counting to 10 before she voted yes. And talked about how difficult of a decision that was. How difficult will it be for her talking about the censure? Will she, hopefully she'll say if she does vote yes. This was really hard. But I'm not holding my breath

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 49:27

in that it'll it, it'll just depend on what the majority is gonna vote and she will go with the majority, honestly. I agree.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 49:34

So that's my final thought.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 49:36

Th thank you, Jimmy, for your final thoughts on that. And Alan, I would love if you and I can both just share a little bit as well, her final thoughts, but I agree. I disagree with Jimmy on probably a lot of things on many of the things you said on this podcast. I do agree. I will say, my one comment about the contrast between Anonte Anderson's investigation and this one is they both started with false accusations. I just wanna make that really clear. The woman who accused Anonte Anderson of horrible acts, basically saying that he had assaulted multiple women, most of them minors, including undocumented women. It was 60 high school students. Th those were like, clearly not true. Those were proven to be false. Similarly you are not able to prove that John Youngquist acted in this way. And so you had these two individuals who had an axe to grind for whatever reason. In the case of Aon Anderson th this woman who I think had said some like challenges, make this accusation. And then you have Alex Marrero who is going after, after Youngquist, in both cases, things were found out that had nothing to do with the investigation's original purpose and or original intent. And so I just wanna say, would any of us listening, would any of us on this podcast if there was a months long investigation into your behavior, into the things you've said, into what you've done, would any of us come out spotless? I don't think so. And where I really question is. What does the amount of money that goes into these investigations, what does it net us? What do we get at the end of the day? I'm not gonna speak much to what we got at the end of the day from the investigation of a Auntie Anderson. I would say if we didn't do that, we probably, he probably would've run again and likely would've won. But in the case of. This one, to play the race card as many of people who are critical of Alan and I and Jimmy often do. We spent$80,000 to tell us a privileged white man who is in power has bias. Great. Now what, that's my final comment.

Alan Gottlieb: 51:36

Yeah. And I don't really have any final comment other than election day's Tuesday, and everybody should get out and vote. And don't forget the striking parallels between the Trump administration and its behavior and the Marrero regime in its behavior. It's striking.

Jimmy Sengenberger: 51:54

I'll just say, check out my Friday column, the Denver Gazette. It will be on the Marrero report, or rather the the John Youngquist report,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 52:04

Jimmy will tell us what we refer to it as.

Alan Gottlieb: 52:06

Yeah. Thank, thanks for coming on, Jimmy. This has been a great conversation and I hope the trigger warning worked and that people weren't too offended that we even had you on. Thank you. We'll, I appreciate it. We'll be back. Do it again. We'll be back with another one soon. Take care everybody. So long

Audio Only - All Participants: 52:20

I.