Episode 30: Vernon Jones Jr. on the DPS board election

Transcript

Alan Gottlieb: 0:07

good morning or afternoon everyone. It feels like morning because last night was a long night. We're here the day after election night, and we have with us Pastor Vernon Jones Jr. Who is a longtime community activist, former Denver Board candidate and CEO of Faith Bridge, a Denver based nonprofit focused on mobilizing faith communities to support. Schools and promote educational equity for children throughout Colorado. Their mission is to build trusted relationships, co-create conditions and collaborations and shift systems to ensure every child can live well, learn in great schools and realize their hopes. And Vernon is just a non-stop champion for kids in Denver. I've known him for a long time. I'm sure Alexis has too, and it's just great to have him on the show to do a little postmortem on the election last night. Thank you so much for coming on Vernon.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 0:52

Yeah, man. Thank you guys. As I, like you said, good morning, good afternoon, good night. Depending on how you woke up. Yes,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 0:59

I was right before we started recording, I was showing Alan, I have my iced coffee on my right and I have my herbal tea on my left.'cause it just I don't even know what it is I need right now. Probably just need a nap. Vernon, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Let's just cut right to the chase. To what do you attribute, what is clearly a win for the union supported candidates and a clear loss for not only Scott and Michelle who are the incumbents in their respective races, but also for the Denver Families Action endorsed candidates last night.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 1:30

Yeah I think first, let's say, you had gaan win her seat reelection. You had Amy Wynn at large. You had Monica Hunter win her seat in District four. They had Amy Wynn, the at large seat or DJ Torres in district three, sorry. Yep.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 1:45

Yep.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 1:45

Don't wanna forget about dj. I think what you saw was that one, we had low voter turnout. And I think when you look at the data, that the folks who always vote in Denver 65 plus I think the union messaging probably resonated with them more so than the messaging and the outreach that was happening to other demographics. And I just, so I think the message that sold. Was the traditional message help us. We're struggling as teachers. Our classrooms are too full, we're not paid enough and the system is out to get us and all of those things. I think that resonated with an older generation who's for that? For the longest time has heard those same kind of union talking points and

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 2:25

good Democrat support union.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 2:27

Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. If you go, yeah, good democrat support unions and you go to, even to the Democratic party and you see who's leading those things it's older in light and they don't necessarily reflect the kids that are being served.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 2:39

And I would say wealthy, a lot of the folks leading some of the stuff, Scott Baldman, is has been spending a lot of time. Within the Denver Democrats trying to organize

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 2:47

Alexis

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 2:48

successfully.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 2:48

Alexis, that, that's not dark money though, so we can't, you can't criticize that.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 2:51

Oh, okay. Just in wealth. Yeah.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 2:54

That's in the light wealth,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 2:56

yeah. Yeah.

Alan Gottlieb: 2:57

See, I would've thought that differently, that the older demographic like me would be more likely to be a little more conservative and therefore maybe a little less friendly. Toward unions a little more friendly toward things like, charter schools and choice and things that, that, that pretty overtly were criticized by the candidates who won.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 3:15

Yeah. And I would agree with that, Alan, but I think the people who voted were not like you. That's what I think the people who voted were more so the traditionalist, democratic party folks, right? The ones who, to Alexis's point, are in the party that are union friendly and there's, I don't think anybody here saying, Hey, there's anything negative about unions, I think, but no, not

Alan Gottlieb: 3:34

at all.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 3:35

No, there, but there is a, there's a stronghold. That that a group has in this city around, the education narrative and it's not it's not the full narrative. And I think that's what happened in these elections, is that the narrative that has been got played well. And the narrative of what I would say. You look at New York City's mayoral election, truth to Power was spoken there and you saw that narrative win, right? I don't think here in Denver, truth has been spoken to power, and I think anytime people talk about power, they're talking about, oh, the superintendent's got power. Oh, the board's got power, right? But I think they forget that there are other players in this who also have power. So what's the truth? The power to the DCTA? What's the truth? The power to CEA that needs to be spoken as well, versus them being able to plan to play the whole martyr card. Every time we have an election around. Oh, nobody cares about us. Oh, we're getting outspent. Oh, nobody, come on now. I've been around this too long to see that.

Alan Gottlieb: 4:33

Yeah. Yeah. A friend I was talking to this morning said that, it, it said the same thing in a different way, which is simply that the the Denver families backed candidates in many cases sounded like DCTA light instead of an alternative vision. In other words, they were saying class sizes are too big. Oh, you can, teachers are underpaid.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 4:51

You can name names Alan, like Van posted it very publicly on Facebook.

Alan Gottlieb: 4:55

Yes. Yeah. It was van I was talking to this morning. Yeah. Yeah. Who said that? Yeah. But I think I've heard other people say it too, and I don't think that's wrong.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 5:03

No,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 5:03

there's,

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 5:03

it's not. No.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 5:05

And I wonder, in talking to a lot of the candidates who lost last night from backed by Denver families, like how much they regret, I, and I don't know, I haven't asked them this, but do they regret they're not being more bold and outspoken in their messaging? I. I'll speak for myself, but I was hanging out with one of the, one of the candidates who lost. I was like, welcome to the Loser Club. It's it's a fun place to be. And there Veon is in there. Lina, who I know Liston is in there. There's a lot of us that we're not going anywhere. We're stick. We're here, we're sticking around. And

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 5:36

we only lose if we don't learn. Alexis, you,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 5:38

that's my motto

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 5:38

and life job.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 5:40

I love that. But or, and not, but oh, I was going somewhere with this and this is where sleep would be really helpful. I was saying

Alan Gottlieb: 5:47

you were talking to, you were talking to one of the people last night from the Losers Club is where you went.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 5:52

Oh gosh. I can't, I lost it. Yeah. It'll come to you in, it'll come back in

Alan Gottlieb: 5:56

about 30 seconds.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 5:57

It'll, but Alan too, I think too, what happened? You look at data 2021 you had 136,969 people vote, and then 2025 you had 108,000. So you had a drop in voters of 28,000. As far as in the school board, there's a lot more people that voted. There's a lot of under vote. There's a lot of people who voted for two A through two E. They voted through F and G. You see the LL and all of those things, you see those higher vote totals, but you saw a lot of people skip school board. Yeah. So that's, that to me is, it

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 6:30

is wild.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 6:31

Yeah, it's wild. But I think it's also an indicator that to our point is the narrative that wins when we are not talking about school board is the traditional one. It's again, goes back to the union strong goal. The union has had a powerful position, which. Rightfully they stand up for our teachers. Some teachers, okay, black teachers and brown teachers might argue how effectively they are supported and advocated for, and we've seen that here in Denver. But the reality is, less people voted so that when you have a low voter turnout, what you're. What you're defaulting to is the people who have always voted. What are the narratives that they have always heard? And they've always heard the teacher narrative. They've always heard the union narrative. And so if you've not positioned your folks who are running against that, to your point not to be union light, if you've not positioned them to. Share a different message to be bold. Again, going back to New York, the Merrill election, if you're not challenging them to actually talk to the people who are disenfranchised by the system, if you're not empowering them to come with bold solutions to say, how do we end the educational desert? How do we end these injustices? How do we deal with that? If they're just playing it safe, that's what the electorate's telling us. We don't need people who wanna play it safe right now. We need some people who are actually challenging things and have fricking bold vision about what different looks like. And I don't know if we heard that.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 7:55

I think that's right. You, I wanted to I, I'll just say I remembered my thing and it was actually, it was on the messaging when I ran, I did have some level of regret that I wasn't more bold in my messaging. And I think what was helpful for me. When I did do that is I surrounded myself with people included, including you, Vernon, like who grounded me in how I talked about it, why I was running, and held me accountable to that strong messaging. And I think what I worry about in this race is even though I was talking to a lot of the candidates and I saw the people around them, I think it was a lot of like political speak, not. Values and the why and going back to what is the bold vision, right? It can't just be change, right? It's change and what, yeah. And I think that's where like we got in and I'll blame myself for this. Like we got in our own heads when we were talking about message, we got in our own heads about will this resonate with this group or will this resonate with this group? And like, how will Latino voters take this? How will black voters take this? How will you know old white Jewish voters take this? And it almost doesn't matter, like what is the vision you are setting and how are you getting people to align and building that coalition behind it.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 9:15

Yeah. Because there was, people were not inspired under vote. There was more under vote in school board this year, this cycle than there was in 2021.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 9:22

It is. Why? Yeah.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 9:22

20, 20 17% in 2021 and 22% in 2025. So you're people are becoming less. Concerned about school board. They're just like, eh, not, I'm vote for

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 9:36

the bot I'm gonna, I'm gonna vote for my park and the grass and the trees and, but not for the kids. Yeah, I and you know what, shout, shout, quick shout out to Paul Lopez and the entire clerk and recorder staff there and staying up late and like doing the good integrity work and like increasing voter turnout. Yes, Paul, I'm talking to you, my friend. Let's make sure people fill out their full ballot.

Alan Gottlieb: 9:58

Yeah. Yeah. 20. My I don't know what the Undervote was I don't know if you have it in front of you in 2023, but my theory is that people got a little comfortable with the big win in 2023 with the three, candidates, ousting incumbents, and thought, oh, we, we've found the magic sauce. And what it really was people, the dysfunction was just so out front and so outrageous in that board that, that got. Ousted in 2023 or some members of which that's what caused the rush of votes to put new people in. And the mistake that was made was, oh, we can just repeat the same playbook that we did in 2023 without that same kind of level of outrage to motivate people to vote.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 10:36

Yeah, and to Alan, to your point, interesting.'cause I, it just got to 2023 stats in front of me. 2023 Undervote. 23 3. Undervote was 11. 0.85%. So you almost nearly doubled that under vote in the at large race this time around.

Alan Gottlieb: 10:51

Wow. Wow. Okay. That's, that tells you a lot, doesn't it?

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 10:55

Yeah. So what did we do? Yeah. How did you lose these? How did you lose these folks? How did they become less inspired about schools? When we are in a more challenging situation? In 20, in, in 2023. There was 144,000 votes, 20 21 or 20, or this 2025. 108,000 votes. So you got 36,000 less votes from 2023 from 2021. Your overall, and look at this overall, 2021, 160,000 votes in 2021. In 2023, you had 1 44. Yeah. And now in 2025 you only had 108,000. Wow. You are Wow. The, it's the declining concern when it comes to school board, and we have to understand why is that We're not even, you go to the data, again, grandparents are voting, but the parents and the, those who just recent graduates are not voting.

Alan Gottlieb: 11:54

You know why it is Fernandez?'cause DPS is doing such a great job.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 11:57

We're green. We're green. It's all good.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 12:00

Hey

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 12:00

We're all, you talked about the parents and my, my concern has always been, if you are an uninformed voter and you're happy with your kids' school, you love your kids' teacher, right? We've had amazing teachers at our school, both at our neighborhood school and at our charter school. Like great teachers. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna listen to what my teachers say, right? And go with that. I think what I'm worried about is how many pa, like exactly what you said, parents and recent DPS graduates chose not to vote, and I wanna know why. And why did you choose to vote for, banning or keeping the flavor tobacco ban? Why did you choose to vote for school meals? If school meals were important, why are student outcomes not important?

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 12:40

It just doesn't, it doesn't make sense. I think

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 12:42

the, it does not compute.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 12:43

No, it doesn't compute. And I think the concern, again, you go back to, I think the voter suppression or the injustice that goes on that we will not talk about is that, and Alexis, you know this as a former candidate, you're, your consultants give you a universe that you're supposed to go after, right? They don't tell you to go after everyone. They tell you, here's your universe. Correct. Go after that universe to win. They don't do the democratic thing, which is what I believe. Everybody who's a registered voter needs to hear from it. Everybody who's a registered voter should be informed because it should be the goal of our democracy to get everybody to participate. It should be the goal of our democracy to make sure that everybody who can vote does vote. That's what I thought, Colorado. That's what I thought Colorado was all about. That's what we got. Early voting mail-in ballots, we, that's what we say our state is about, but yet every voting cycle we get excited about mediocre returns. That continues to show us that no matter how accessible we think we are making voting, people still are disenfranchised. So we have to start asking ourselves, why? Why are they not concerned about this? What. Because if you're only, this is why it is because if you're only reaching a certain universe, if you're only going to Central Park, but you say, don't waste your time in Green Valley Ranch Montbello because those people don't vote, or you say, Hey, don't go to that part of Southwest Denver because those people don't vote. You yourself are practicing voter suppression and voter disenfranchisement. I don't care who consulted you to do that. You are part of the problem when you do not choose to go and reach everybody because everybody deserves to be an informed voter so that they might vote. If you listen to consultants who told you not to go to every community, you deserve to lose. That's my thing. You deserve to lose because if you've gotta represent all 90,000 kids, but you won't come to every neighborhood that every now 90,000 kid lives in, you don't deserve to represent us. You got consultants from out of town telling you what to do in your city, please get outta here. You don't deserve to be on the board.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 14:39

Dang. First of all, Vernon, I love the honesty. Thank you for you

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 14:43

said this is the, this is Alan

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 14:44

told me.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 14:44

Tell the truth. Yes.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 14:45

I love it. No, it's great. I was expecting that thing last I was expecting a more gentle version, but I love it. And you said something that that I was chatting with with a friend about a little while ago before we hopped on the podcast. I, speaking for myself and I would assume Vernon, you're probably in a similar boat, like we're not going anywhere. I still had to wake up this morning and take my kids to school. I am still deeply concerned about what success looks like for my children and their friends and their peers, and those that don't have the same privilege and access as my kids do, and I don't have the luxury. I should say, I have the privilege to walk away. I don't have the ability in my soul to walk away from this. And so I, I see that with you, Vern, and I see that with a lot of people who have been in this, most of their careers, most of their life here in Denver. And I think what's hard for me is. We have these what is the term? The Fairweather friends that come through these cycles every two years and get people excited, but then they leave and we don't hear from them. Or we hear from somebody else, a year and a half from now, and how Transac transaction

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 16:03

is

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 16:03

transactions Alexis. And what I think we're missing is building a stronger bench. Of young people, and this is what I so love about the work that you're doing, Vernon a stronger bunch of young people of organizers, of people who are ready to lead, ready to be the consultant, ready to be the campaign manager. And no, it's like I see these incredible young organizers, black and brown organizers who are DPS graduates, but why are we not in turn hiring them to be our campaign managers, our consultants, and. I will say like the I know a lot of the campaign manager, a lot of them have deep ties, DPS and that's great, but like they're not inden, they're not in education every day.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 16:42

Yeah. Yeah. Look, again, going back to New York gov, the New York mayoral Ray said this. They said, look, this took years of organizing, coalition, building and speaking truth to power. I come back to those principles, years of organizing, coalition, building, and speaking truth to power. You cannot come into a city. I don't care who you are and just be about the transaction. New York Merrill Race told us the relationships matter. Cultivating trusted relationships matter, and if you want to really bring about transformation, not just win seats, because this is the, this is, I think is the weakness because. Of the strategy of some of the folks that we call friends that we do this work with is that for them, they show up when it's election time just to win seats, and what the community continues to tell them is, for us, it's more than just a seat. It's the work that needs to get done. From the election to the high school graduation, it's the work that needs to get done. People look, the election is just one thing and that's the transaction. And then those people do that transaction and they go away. Community is saying no, we want people that we trust who are gonna be here with us after the election's over doing the work with us to make sure

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 17:54

win or lose.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 17:56

Win or lose. Yes. Win or lose, doing the work. Because our communities, Alan, come on. Alan's been around here too. He's a young man and he's been around here a while too, so we've seen. Different iterations of boards. We've seen different superintendents in Denver. We've seen a DCT, a strong board. We've seen a seven oh board that some would consider be innovation charter friendly. We've seen all the different configurations of boards, but what we have not seen from any of those boards is sustained success for all children because this has really just become about adults. Issues. Who's gonna win the seed? Who's gonna control the seed? Which power organization is gonna control the seed? When again, going back to New York, it would challenge us to say, speak truth to power Vernon. Speak truth to power to Denver family. Speak truth to power to DCTA. Speak truth to power to the central office. Those are the power brokers, and if you cannot tell the truth to those power brokers, then you don't want to really transform things for kids. Yeah, if you can't talk to Rob, if you can't invite Kim in and say, Hey, come sit down with us and let me holler at you about what's really going on. I appreciate the work you do for teachers, but at the same time, this stuff sucks. In the far northeast, when I'm looking at only eight out of 32 elementary schools having scores of 40% are better in proficiency. I should have DCTA and Reform or whatever you wanna call the other side. They all should be side by side communities saying this is not okay, but instead of saying it's not okay together. They point the finger and blame. Who's the blame? Who's the, come on now. That's not what community's saying.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 19:38

A lot of that's

Alan Gottlieb: 19:39

happening today. Vernon, to what extent do you think the resounding defeat of the two incumbents, Scott Esserman and Michelle Kaleba, is due to the fact that what was plainly obvious in front of everybody's face, what you just said, they were completely denying and saying, everything is fine. Follow the yellow brick road. We're in great shape.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 19:57

We've had the privilege because of how we work in the space to spend the last four years of talking with Michelle and with Scott. Scott and I ran against each other in 2021. Developed a respect, but also this open line of communication about. Bro, y'all can paint it as green as you want. You can slime the superintendent all you want, but y'all understand kids are not reading at grade level. I'm looking at schools, don't need to mention the school, but a school got 11.9% proficiency in math and 1.9 proficiency in. Reading language arts. Right? And you can tell me, oh, it's not just about test scores. You're right, Scott. You're right, Michelle. It's not just about that singular test score. That singular test score does not tell me everything, but it does tell me something. And I think the problem with the incumbent. Was they forgot that test score does tell me something. And you were being dismissive of the something. That it was telling us. And what it was telling us was that the system is failing these kids, and you needed to act with a different level of urgency to fix the system. And that begins with the transparent evaluation of the superintendent who is charged to fix the system.

Alan Gottlieb: 21:08

That's what I wanna get into next. And actually, but I just wanna say I, I admire your gift for keeping lines of dialogue open because Michelle and Scott would no more talk to me than they would talk to Satan at this point. And I don't know exactly what I did to piss him off, but I can guess. But I, I still feel like that was a real also showed their vulnerability and lack of sophistication as public officials, that they won't talk to people who disagree. Strenuous.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 21:32

Yeah. I don't know what Scott's issue is with you, Alan, but I with maybe the exception of you. It very, in particular, I do think Scott, talks to most people, but you're the exception to the rule.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 21:44

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what Alan did. Did you Maybe you own some money? I don't know Alan. I don't know.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 21:48

Scott. Scott and I said he would talk to

Alan Gottlieb: 21:49

me after the election, so we'll see.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 21:50

Scott and I have lovely, we see if he will or not. Scott had a lovely coffee conversation a couple months back and, agree to disagree on things, I have a certain level of respect for him for sure.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 21:59

Yeah. And I to Michelle and Michelle and Scott have worked with us on some things with the, especially with our shift high school fellows, to really listen and lean in with them and really help to amplify and elevate the lived experiences of students. So I appreciate both of them and what they've done over the last four years, and I don't think that their advocacy for kids is gonna stop because they're not on the board. I think it might actually get better for them because now they're back into a space where, they are in community and they're gonna have to now. A adjust to being in that full community space versus, versus having to play sometimes the politics. That if you're not, if you're, if your nor North Star is not set, sometimes those politics can, pull you to places that you don't want to be and make you rub people the wrong way. But yeah, I think Michelle and Scott. Not coming through was a lot of messages sent. One that, hey, the DCTA endorsement does help if you're running in those district seats. I think that also they probably could have, they probably took, in my point, suffered a messaging problem, right? They did not read, the tea leaves or they did not read the room. The electorate was not. One happy with the board. And two, the electorate was not sold on the fact that the current direction of the school district is where it needs to go. And so if you were coming and telling us, Hey, everything's great. You're acting like we are not proficient in our reading, because we too could read the dang reports coming from CDE and CDE said everything's not great. So if you want to continue that messaging and you want to tell us that it's okay for an executive to do his own evaluation. And there's no public discourse about that or public comment about how we're interacting with our own superintendent. That, that kind of thing, that kind of threw people the wrong way. And there was some nasty politics. Lemme just say that too. There was some nasty politics, Scott and I, because of our relationship. I called folks out when they started to compare. Other Democrats because even though it's a nonpartisan process, a nonpartisan election, they begin to compare other Democrats to project 2025 folks, right? And I call and I said, Bru, no. That is a line crossed. We cannot do that. That is using fear to divide and to conquer, and that is not who we are. And while you may, somebody might have told you that was the best. Political strategy that is not the best neighbor strategy. And I think people burned relationships and bridges with that and people were just like, nah, that's exactly what we don't want more of. And you played that card and I think that hurt. I think that

Alan Gottlieb: 24:36

yeah, I agree. I wrote about it too. So we've done a really, I think, good postmortem here and I'd like to do a little, spend a little time looking forward now, Vernon, I'm interested in how you see, it may be impossible to know this'cause we've got three new board members, but how do you see this new board positioning itself, in policy governance and the way policy governance is practiced and in its relationship related to policy governance with Superintendent Marrero?

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 25:00

I think there are two players right now who are probably gonna be the ones who help to drive that who really set the tone. And I think that's Sochi director Gaan, and I think that is Director De La Rosa. I think they both have positionality they. Respect for each other. I've seen them interact when they agree and I've seen them interact when they disagree. And I think they really have to now get beyond the polarizing politics and remember that the board has to speak as seven. I remember back in the day, Jeannie Kaplan used to say, all we gotta do is count to four. That's great. But I think the reality is you need to have a board that speaks at seven if you're not gonna have this. Same tumultuous stuff that goes on in community. So I'm looking to Director Gaan and to Director Delarosa to really be the leaders on setting the tone of what this new board can do, the policies that it can push together, and how it can effectively I say e equitably support the superintendent, but then also hold him accountable. I think the board has not I think the board has done a disservice to the last few superintendents that we've had as far as being a support. To the superintendent. I feel like Susanna did not have the support that she deserved from her board. I do not feel like, to some degree that Alex has not had the full support that he needed, and I don't mean support for letting him do whatever he wants. Support for development, support for helping him to navigate the complexities of Denver, helping him to navigate the relationships that he has to navigate and to, you're supposed to help that executive be the best he or she can be. I don't think the boards have effectively done that, so I'm hoping that. Director Gaan and Director Delarosa will set the tone for that. I do think that Monica Hunter coming on will provide a different kind of fire than we're used to. She's very she's very strong at what she does when she's working for CEA and she's out there, advocating for the right thing. She has pushed in that room, that lion's den, I like to call it sometimes, that she has pushed, things that people don't know about. She stood up for. Black teachers and brown teachers and for the union to transform some of its practices and she still pushes there. I, so I hope that same push comes to the board.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 27:10

I, I can't, I really can't say much bad about Monica. I agree. Like her fire, I've been so impressed. And I remember at one of the debates I, I don't know who was doing it behind the scenes, and maybe it was Anonte or maybe it was Scott or Hasheem, but. Some, somebody was calling her like a union puppet and she did not hold back. She's I am no one's puppet. Love it. I love that

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 27:34

light,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 27:34

dude. And I I have been very critical of the union over the years on the lack of funding, either on the heart or the soft side for their black candidates and often what I've considered like tokenizing. Black candidates and I saw it very much in in the race that I was in with Aon and the politics there and the racial politics and I I called it out and so did people who I disagree with. But I am very impressed at Monica's background in organizing and pushing the union to be better, pushing CEA to be better and really leading with this equity lens for black educators that we. That often don't have power or a seat at the table. Like I, I'm really hoping she brings that same kind of fire to the board and holds the superintendent accountable. And piggybacking on what you said Vernon about Marlene and Sochi I think. It's probably one of the two of them that, and most likely Sochi, that gets elected board president. Unless, I could see a world where they just want new leadership and it's either one of the new folks dj Monica or Amy. And most likely

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 28:40

I hope that I, yeah, lemme just, I if when they listen to this podcast, I hope none of the new folks want to jump into the presidency. Hope, think, I hope that it is a dis it's a disservice to students. It's a disservice to the district. Every friend that I've ever had that's been on the Board of Education said it took a year to two years. To get up to speed. This is almost a$2 billion organization with 15,000 plus employees. There's a lot of complexities Yes. That, that they need to understand about. Yes. Denver public schools and. This is not about title chasing. This is about, Hey, yep. Am I ready to do this? So that's why I tip my hat to Marlene and Gaan that this is the moment where they have to use some of their seniority and absolutely. Steer the ship.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 29:22

Absolutely. This brings

Alan Gottlieb: 29:23

me just,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 29:24

sorry, go ahead. I'll just say really quick. I'll. I think most likely outcome and I hate to, I am like, I can't even believe I'm saying this. It's like I, I hope the most likely outcome is that Sochi director Gaan becomes president. And I actually think she has improved in how she, and she's learned. And I think because of the dynamics of the board shifting, it's no longer like the full dysfunction. And I actually think she's probably the best positioned if she chooses to make this decision the best position to bring unity to the board. Because she, oh, come on. That's ridiculous. No, because that is ridiculous. Because she has been criticized and led an incredibly dysfunctional board and was the leader of a dysfunctional board and has learned to work with a superintendent is the strongest. Did

Alan Gottlieb: 30:09

you hear how she talked to John Young?

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 30:10

Last week is the strongest supporter of the superintendent and. I tr do I wanna see him in office right now while we're in a position? Like I, no, I think that we could have a better leader, but if somebody's going to have to work with him and hold the board, bring the board together, I hate to say it's go, it's going. She is the best option we have because Kimberly and John are not gonna get elected. I'm operating in reality and I am hopeful, but I will not be surprised if it goes a different way. Yeah, go ahead Alan. Okay. This is the

Alan Gottlieb: 30:38

most violently I've disagreed with Alexis in the year of doing a podcast with her because I think Sochi is. Is I think she's been vindictive. I think she's been very destructive on this board. It was the incredibly horrible dynamic between her and Anonte that I think caused a lot of the dysfunction. I think the way she's gone after Youngquist, the way she spoke to him and her remarks during the conversation last week was incredibly disrespectful, dismissive, and insulting. I did

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 31:05

forget about that. I

Alan Gottlieb: 31:06

have a, so I think she is a figure. And I don't think she should be the president. I would think any of the other six would be better than her. And that's my commentary. But I wanted to ask Vernon about the Youngquist situation and about how this new board can move. They're gonna cen the guy. There's almost no question about that because it's the current board. And how so how does the new board work? First of all, you're never gonna get seven if Sochi ISS president because she's already told young qui, she thinks he's a horrible human being. So how do you move PA beyond the censure and work together as a board if, especially if you're one of the three new members I.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 31:42

Yeah I think that there's a humility that you have to have in leadership that we all fall short at times. And, as we're dealing with the situation with John I've, of course I've communicated with board members about that. And I feel like this whatever the, its investigation into John's biases only revealed what we know about all humans. We all have biases and we have to unlearn those things. And the best way for you to unlearn those things is to be in relationship with people. And I think, John and I have worked together. I was at Manuel, John was at East, and so we were colleagues. And so John and I, since that point to now, have had lots of conversations and lots of pushes and pulls together. And I think what John has been put through by this board has been again. Reckless adult politics that did not serve kids well. It did not, and does not serve kids well. And I think that this board has to reset itself. I think it has to, quickly say, Hey that. Was a previous board and we need to reset ourselves. I would even challenge the current board why, what is the form of the century? That's, yes, that's your only power tool to hold each other accountable. But I could probably list about 50 other things that y'all should hold each other accountable for that. And I don't wanna disclose like some of the details that I know about all this stuff with John, but I think some of the stuff like. Let's, where is it coming from? Is this new stuff or is this old axis to grind that people were bringing up that, of stuff that happened 13, 14, 15 years ago, and now they just saw this opportunity, they were emboldened because they now had this window. Y'all should have dealt with that stuff. Be adults. Don't we teach kids how to, if you have a conflict, go talk it out. Go restore that. I'm just like, it's just immature. My, our high school students that watch these board meetings all the time looked at this thing and were like, Hey, wait, you mean they didn't talk to each other? You mean he offered to go to coffee with somebody to fix it and they didn't want to go to coffee and it's still his fault because that person didn't wanna restore, or that person didn't want to help. We say understand first. They didn't wanna understand first. I, so it's the whole thing is just. Disgusting and divisive to me

Alan Gottlieb: 33:52

if the adults, unless not forget, the superintendent is the one who started this whole thing, not the board. You can blame the board members for the way they behave, right? But it was his letter and saying, oh, John wants my job and he's done all these horrible things that started it.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 34:02

If the adults could have the same letter level of critical thinking that the students you work with Vernon have in watching these board meetings and thinking about how they're responding to this as young adults and young leaders. It would solve so many of our problems. Just like critical. Again,

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 34:21

It was insulting because during that board meeting, they kept saying over and over again, our students are watching, our students are watching, and I sat in that room while that was going on, and I wanted to stand up and say then shut up. Our students are watching. Then what are they learning from you? What, how are they learning to handle? These complex issues of race and identity and bias, and how are they learning to interact with each other when you have to have those, what we call can, radical candor. You do have to be courageous enough to lean in and say, Hey, John, you're a white man. Hey, I'm a black man. There's biases I have about you. There's biases you have about me. Let's talk through those things. Hey, I'll tell John all the time, Hey bro, I don't like how you said that. And he'll say, okay, why? And I'll say, because this is how it sounded, right? And we have that relationship to have that conversation. He says the same thing back to me. People have to lean into relationship and if they don't have it, what I'm encouraging you to do is have relationship. Because all if you don't have relationship, you are always operating from the bias.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 35:21

Yep. So go on that and bringing something back that you said a minute or two ago ton about accountability. I agree with everything you just said, and I think it's the relationships and this is where for me, i'm not by any means close with Director Gaan. And I've gotten, I've been in many spaces with her, like the Latino political community and the Latino education community is a small one. We've been in spaces together and we've had cordial conversations. I absolutely want her to succeed. I want I, I'm gonna give her a chance. I want her to be a strong leader. I want her to be a courageous leader, and I think she has it in her. My question then becomes, what is the accountability to whoever is in leadership? Whether it is, director Gaan is the president again, whether it's Dr. Torres or whether it's, Monica is the president. What does accountability look like to those leaders and who holds them accountable and how?

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 36:12

Yeah that's a great question because I think the gap that we have right now is that. Where they, the board has this accountability to of censure, right? The only real accountability that communities have is recall. And not everything is a recallable offense. But everything should be. Something that we can hold each other accountable for. And so I think there has to be, more grassroots organizing that shows up and lets the board members see us there regularly. Not just when it's time to complain, but when it's time to co-create. I think we need to be in rooms where they say they're having their. Community engagements. We need to pack those rooms. If you're reaching out to us, great. You're gonna see us. We're gonna show up, you're gonna hear our voices consistently. You're gonna hear our ideas consistently, and the accountability really begins, again, with the building of a trusted relationship because it's not just about did you follow the protocol? Did you follow that? I want to get to the level where when we're operating with board members, the question is, did you violate trust? Because we've been in that room with you building, we've been in that room with you co-creating, and then you went and did that. You violated trust and then that sometimes, then community shuts you down. Right then community's Hey, we are not engaging with you and all of your community engagements are gonna be two people, you, your friend and your friend's friend, right? Because we're not showing up because you violate a trust and that's how you hold them accountable, and you make sure it's known. We don't show up to such and such area anymore because it's been proven that this person's not listening to us. It's been proven, and we go to public comment and we are on their helmet. Every public comment this says, this is why we're not there, and you continue to have that public narrative. And then two years from now, four years from now, when we're electing new people, that becomes a narrative of why change is needed, because we've experienced this for two years, four years, and we've had enough. That's how you hold'em accountable. You give'em a headache for two years, for four years, they're gonna not hear from me.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 38:13

That's a really great point. And I'm very guilty of only showing up to board meetings when it's something I'm deeply passionate about or somebody is, saying I need to speak. And I'm like, oh fine. Like I don't wanna speak at public comment, but I will. But it is such a good point. 3

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 38:26

81, Alexis, remember 3 81 stamina. We said, my team get tired of me saying that, but that's how long. The folks who did the mock the bus boycott, they stayed off buses for 381 days. And every time I think about do I have the stamina to push through for justice, I think about black folks who walked carpooled and did everything. Staying for 381 days to stay off a bus. Wow. And that's the problem. Let me just let me also say, Alan, you asked the question to start this whole conversation. What happened last night? People don't have 381 stamina in the education ecosystem anymore. People want quick fixes. They want to drop in and do their advocacy, drop in their money with their leaflets in their. They're campaign lit and they want everything fixed when the solution is, you need folks who are gonna be in community and who have the stamina to see this thing through. And if you don't have the stamina, again, just like you shouldn't be on the board, then I don't want to hear your mouth about anything that's going on in education

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 39:25

and not doing it for the paycheck, not doing it just because they're paid to be in that room. And I think that's what alarms me is how many people are on a payroll. As advocates, as opposed to just advocates. Yeah. And you mentioned the money and we haven't and I don't know if we wanna the podcast will go a lot longer if we go down this road, but one thing I've been reflecting on this last week is there was a video that went viral of Billy Eilish. She was in a room with a bunch of millionaires. Or billionaires, including like Mark Zuckerberg. And she said something like for those of you in the room, if you're billionaires, why are you billionaires? Give away your money, shorty. And and I know that there's such a critique of the dark money. Look if the founder of Netflix, Reed Hastings, it wants to give his money away, please please send it to Denver. We have plenty of need. Of how we could effectively spend that money. McKinsey Scott, please. AI algorithms. Listen to what we're saying, McKinsey Scott, send money over Faith Bridge could use some money. 10 could use some money. Denver families could use some money. Hell, the union could use some money. But how are we building trust to spend that money wisely? Like I, I'll take the billionaire money all day long.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 40:36

Yeah. And I will take the billionaire money not to win elections. I will take it to Yep. Elevate, elevate the lives

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 40:41

of

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 40:41

that part students. That,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 40:43

that, that is, I think one of the areas we failed as quote unquote reform and May, and this is where I will call Denver families out of how I don't think they did a good job and I couldn't say what it is they have been doing in the non-election cycle of showing how they're spending that out of state billionaire money. To improve the lives of students when they're not running elections and they're not trying to win elections. And that goes, it goes back to what you were saying earlier, Vernon.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 41:10

Yeah, and let's also be fair that money from Outta state comes from everywhere, right? It comes from, yeah, of

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 41:15

course.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 41:16

EEA through CEA, and it goes to DCTA and it gets washed, right? Or whatever folks wanna call the process, right? Everybody's getting money from everywhere. And lemme tell you what I don't care about. I don't care about folks who want to put money in the right hands to get the right things done for kids. What I do care about is the fact that. Money has come into communities to run the same political game and nothing has changed for black and brown kids or poor kids. I am frustrated by that and that's frustrated by, on either side because I don't play the ticket like, oh, it's just the dark money folks. You know what is it? Stronger something for kids. That was a, all of these folks had their little students

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 41:56

deserve better

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 41:57

students, deserve better independent expenditure committees. All of these folks had them. And the common voter, the doesn't know who's behind all this stuff, but there's. Organizations behind all of that stuff to put out the ads against Magna that dropped the leaflets about Mariana that did. There are other folks who did that. Oh, the candidate can always wash their hands up to say, Hey, I've got no control of that. I don't connect with those people. But there's money that flows to do nefarious things. Their money that flows to do. The nasty stuff that they think is necessary to win political games when I'd love to see that same level of funding for the work that I and many other organizations do daily to actually transform the lives of kids and their families. And

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 42:40

a thousand percent, a thousand.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 42:41

That changes. That changes who you, who gets to run for school board? Because now you've got a different culture. You have

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 42:47

a different culture. Imagine. So what did Bloomberg spend on three 10? Was it 3 million? It was some like 5 million I don't know, I think it was 3 million. Please. What's

Alan Gottlieb: 42:56

three 10? Just to,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 42:57

people aren't gonna know what you're talking about. It's the to keep the flavor

Alan Gottlieb: 42:59

vaping,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 43:00

the keep the flavor tobacco ban. And imagine if Michael Bloomberg and his people spent that money on Faith Bridge doing outreach to inform students and work with teachers on. The negative impacts of flavored tobacco of trying to reduce teen vaping and how that builds trust in community instead of Michael Bloomberg drop, Michael Bloomberg dropping 3,000,001 race coming out and then coming in the next cycle on the thing that's an election versus back to Whitburn and said, building, using that money to build trust and. Build relationships with students and teachers on why we shouldn't be doing this. That's a'cause one

Alan Gottlieb: 43:45

thing is messy and the other thing's neat. I think that's the

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 43:48

simple

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 43:49

Of course. But let's be transparent. Let's put. Lemme be very transparent. I had a conversation with somebody who just won their election about this conversation, right? Because I said, look, what I'm concerned about is the negative framing that you have said about billionaires and the money that they drop. I'm concerned about your negative. Of narrative about, and I specifically said Anschutz, right? Because Anschutz has given money to support the work that we do at Faith Bridge. And I told this board person and I said, just so you know, check the receipts. The work that you actually do in your space, your salary, and the work has also been funded by Anschutz. Which way do you want to have it? Is Anschutz money good or is Anschutz money bad? Because it seems to be good when you cash in that check every paycheck. It seems to be good when it's funding the research and the work, but then when you get into political space, you get to call them the boogeyman in the closet. Yeah. Because that is what resonates with these older voters. It's this fear that there's some unknown boogieman out there pulling the strings and controlling these things, but no. Tell those older folks, the guy that gave me this money is the same guy that helped her build the Anschutz Medical Center that those seniors are able to get quality healthcare through. Say that part. But you don't say that part because then they're not scary. You want to keep people in fear. Yes. And that is the thing that is horrible about this last election cycle is the fear. And not just this one.

Audio Only - All Participants: 45:15

Yep.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 45:15

All of the fear mongering, all of the fear-based narrative that everyone likes to say just showed up when President Trump showed up on the scene. Ladies and gentlemen, that is not the truth. Folks have been using fear. Tactics to convince you to vote for people because they don't have vision, they don't have a plan. The only thing that they have is to use words to make you scared of somebody so they can get into a seat and have the power and control. Miss me with the fear stuff.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 45:42

No, and

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 45:43

we've gone from an shoots if you're

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 45:45

and just to make one more point on that, like the Daniel, like the Republican stuff, right? The Daniels Fund is mostly Republican board look. Daniels Fund does good work. They I credit a lot of my success to being able to graduate debt free from college because I was a Daniels scholar. I am a Daniels scholar. I am a proud Daniel Scholar. Do I agree with everything that that the individuals and the board of directors at Daniels Fund do That, that Hannah scan, the head of the CEO of Daniels fund does? No, but I can appreciate. That they are doing good work in community to help black and brown students, even when those black and brown students become adults and hundred percent often become Democrats who then will like probably do things that, that they wouldn't agree with, but they still continue to invest in black and brown kids in Colorado and the Rocky Mountain region, and they happen to be Republican

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 46:38

a hundred percent. I stay on the helmet of the folks. I stand on the helmet of the folks at Daniels. Two of my kids were Daniel Scholars. Right? But Daniel Scholars know. Daniel Fund knows Vernon's a great partner with us because he will sit at the table with us, push us where we need to be pushed, and where we're on the same page, we will move together. I, I, look, I'm not gonna sit here and be a part of anything that divides my neighborhood, my community. I'm trying to build a Colorado that works for everybody. And I think it's possible if we just get away from this. Same traditional narrative. I'm not gonna say the name, but one of our former representatives, he puts out there charter schools, lost charter schools lost, da and public schools have been saved. And I said, brother, let's talk about public school proficiencies. You talk about, oh, I'll name

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 47:21

him. Saved. I'll name Joe Salazar. I saw what you posted, Joe Salazar. And I, look, I have mad respect for Joe Salazar. I voted for him. Yeah, I've knocked doors for him. Like I, Joe Salazar is good people, but Joe, and I'll text you after this too. You are a sore winner, sir.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 47:41

Let's be honest. Let's just be honest with community, let's quit painting these fear narratives and be honest about what the landscape is In Colorado education, charter schools are public schools in the state of Colorado by law, and I think he was there and. It? No, he knows that's a law.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 47:58

He's a lawyer. He,

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 48:00

yes.

Alan Gottlieb: 48:02

Let's call out Mike Deguire.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 48:04

So don't manipulate don't

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 48:04

manipulate

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 48:05

people.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 48:05

We've been saying Mike Dre's name wrong. Mike. It's Deguire. I've learned deguire de Oh, sorry, Mike,

Alan Gottlieb: 48:10

whatever his name is, he needs to like, he needs to like just go away and be quiet for a while because,

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 48:16

but de is ridiculous. But Allen, Alan, this is where you and I are part of the problem. I'm part of the problem. That is not neighborly, Alan. So how are we building?

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 48:25

They don't need to go away. No, we need to just to you guys' point about the same thing about GLT. Get out the vote. We have to educate. There's a biblical passage that says, my people perish for a lack of knowledge. Right? That is the same. True. That statement is true about the electorate. We struggle and continue to stay in the same cycles because people are not informed. Alexis, you said this earlier. We have to inform the electorate. We have to let them know what's going on. We have to sit with them. We have to make sure boards have real community engagement policies. We need to make sure that every school has a collaborative school committee. We need to make sure that these r nos are reflective of the neighborhoods that they're in. We have to make sure that our state reps and our state senators are actually talking to their constituents and not special interests. We have to inform the people because when you inform the people, guys who are 34 years young, become the mayor of New York City. That's what happens.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 49:17

And here, and people are afraid

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 49:18

of that

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 49:18

Here. And that, I think to, that is a great note to end it on.

Alan Gottlieb: 49:22

Yeah. Yeah. I

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 49:22

agree. I have

Alan Gottlieb: 49:23

questions, but I we'll do it next time. Let's still

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 49:26

part two.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 49:27

Yes.

Alan Gottlieb: 49:27

Okay. You owe us We'll, come on your

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 49:29

Yes.

Alan Gottlieb: 49:29

Video podcast. Anytime.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 49:31

Yes. We're we will, we're inviting send you guys an invite.

Alexis Menocal Harrigan: 49:35

Yes. We're inviting ourselves on

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 49:37

you. You're welcome.

Alan Gottlieb: 49:38

And we'll try to behave.

Pastor Vernon Jones Jr.: 49:40

Yes.

Alan Gottlieb: 49:41

Okay, Vernon, thanks. Thank you so much. It's been great talking to you.