The Eyed Entity Podcast
Based on a one year long project called "The Eyed Entity Project", the experience of identity in the face of profound grief and loss brought forth questions: who am I when I am not who I was in relationship before? What is most important? How do we uncover our preferences? How do we follow them? How impactful are others in each chapter of our own individual identity? This process emerged in the face of grief and the role of identity in that experience, but evolved into what matters most in life.
Join your host, Kimberly, an LMFT and creative in the exploration of themes around mental health, grief, relationship, creativity and the arts, how we find community, self-empowerment, and related psychological and sociological topics in coming episodes.
The Eyed Entity Podcast
How Stories Shape Us: musical creation and identity with Gordon Leary
In this conversation, we explore the intersection of musical theater, identity, and empathy through the lens of Gordon Leary's work. Gordon shares insights about writing characters that resonate on a human level, the collaborative process of creating musicals, and how personal experiences inform their storytelling. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding diverse human experiences and encourages audiences to engage more deeply with the narratives presented in theater. We also delve into the role of pop culture in shaping contemporary themes and the future of musical theater as a reflective art form.
• Gordon Leary discusses their journey as a musical theater writer
• Exploration of empathy vs. sympathy in storytelling
• The role of collaboration in the creative process
• Reflection on the influence of pop culture in narratives
• The importance of presenting complex characters vs. caricatures
• Insights into the future of theater and evolving narratives
• The challenge of self-definition in an artistic context
• How personal experiences shape creative output
The Thank you. Hello everybody, welcome to the Identity Podcast. Today I am joined by Gordon Leary. Gordon is a Brooklyn-based musical theater writer, originally from Chagrin Falls, ohio. Originally from Chagrin Falls, ohio. They write human scale musicals, maybe some plays that investigate, question and explore ideas of empathy, community, the search for identity, joy, grief, the power of legacy and growing up. They tell stories drawn equally from real life and the mythologies of American popular culture. Gordon Treasurer's collaboration, inquiry and the theatrical imagination. Hi Gordon.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you're here.
Speaker 2:It's so funny to hear you read my bio that I, like you know, took my time trying to figure out like the smallest way, the short, smallest number of words in which to let someone land on my website. So I appreciate hearing it back several years later.
Speaker 1:I love it. I think that I mean that just speaks so much to like what you do. Good, that skill amazes me beyond belief because my brain just processes so many things I don't know how. Like like, teach me Jedi, teach me.
Speaker 2:It's my least favorite thing. Biographies and synopses are the things that, just like you, want me to distill. I generate, I don't distill.
Speaker 1:Exactly yes, thank you. Well, after reading that professional website bio, how does that define you? Are there things that are left out from what you've said because you did have to distill?
Speaker 2:I don't think there are things that are left out. I would say that the craziest part of it is I'm always trying to figure out tone and like the difference between sounding professional and sounding like myself.
Speaker 2:And it's something that you know every time I apply for a grant, every time I fill out an application form, there's always the push and pull of, like I am a writer, so my voice is, like, really important, and how do I make sure I'm communicating not just the information but also, like the essence of who I am and what I do? And so I think, you know, I used to have a very like here are credits, here are, you know, here are the organizations with which I've worked, with whom I've worked, with which I've worked. See, I can't be formal, Me neither, and so I feel like that bio was an attempt to be a little more in my voice. I think, yeah, so I'm sure it'll get an edit sometime soon.
Speaker 1:Noted, because we are constantly evolving creatures, exactly exactly. Yeah. So I feel like so much of identity is voice and through the like the media you create. I mean, can we talk a little bit about, like, how do you channel your voice? Like, is this a conscious part of your process when you're writing, a conscious part of your process when?
Speaker 2:you're writing, I feel like I always.
Speaker 2:It's an important part of my writing to make sure that I am writing things that are that sound like they're being spoken, yeah, and so I, you know, I have lots of ellipses and lots of like, just like I'm doing now, like starting to say something and then rephrasing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and so I think I think those kinds of like very human things are.
Speaker 2:I think the humanity of voice, of a voice is is what gets me, and there are people for who whose voice is very formal and who speak with precision and all of those things. And so, you know, there are rare instances when those people appear in my work, but it is appear in my work, but it is something that interests me is like, how do people actually speak? And I actually think, as a lyricist, it clever or being, or like being a show-off with, like, the play of language. There are times when it certainly lands, but I also think that I always try to make sure that the things that I'm writing and the characters that I'm writing sound like real people yeah and then the.
Speaker 2:the joy and magic of musical theater is that I then give that to my collaborator and they can make it sound like more than just a person, or they can make it sound like an even more specific person, or they can locate that person in a specific world, or something like that. So oh, cool. Yeah, that's. I don't know if that answers your question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so because I just think it's so fascinating. So your creative process, so you are a lyricist and you work with someone who is a composer.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:How does that? Because I think most people don't. I mean, I don't know how many folks know about that whole process.
Speaker 2:I've been in the world of musical theater, and I don't think I understand how that process really goes. I think it's different for each collaboration. I think you know my primary collaborator, julia Meinwald. We are both like there. Well, first of all, we are both very private writers and we don't the idea of, like, going into a room and writing something together terrifies us both.
Speaker 2:Um, and, and we also have very different processes where I am like a, let me think about this for three weeks and write a few lines and then come back and rewrite it and all that stuff. And julia has this magical ability to like, say, from 1, 30 to 4 30, on this day I'm going to write the music for this song, and that just like mystifies me. I mean, I'm, I'm in awe of that, um, because it's so the opposite of me, like, like. Usually I just have to say, okay, this night I'm staying up and I won't let myself sleep until I finish something because I've been thinking about it for three, three weeks, sometimes three years, yeah, uh.
Speaker 2:And so our writing process is like, I mean, we of course talk and agree on what things are going to be, primarily when we're first exploring. Sometimes I will just be like oh, I had this weird idea, and here's the lyric, um, but primarily it's I generate a full lyric and send it to her, she sets it and then there's back and forth from there um. So our process is like discussion based, but not not um, we don't generate together necessarily, whereas I've had other collaborations where that is the case, where, um, you know, sometimes we'll be talking about a moment and the composer will say I have this musical idea that I write lyrics to an existing melody and things like that. So you know, there isn't a hard and fast rule, and I think there are certainly people who do it any number of other ways too. It's just about finding what feels organic and feels like I don't want to say safe, because that's not the right word, but feels like the best way for you to be creative.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, how do you end up finding, like, because it's such an organic process, how do you decide like, oh, this is what we're, this is the direction we're going, this is the topic I really want to dive into, like, this is what we're, this is the direction we're going. This is the topic I really want to dive into. Like, how do you organically find, like, the story that you want to tell?
Speaker 2:It is almost always like finding a story that mystifies me or shocks me or, like you know, we my like grant answer is I always look for stories that pose questions that I don't know the answer to, or people that do things that that I would never do, and I use my writing to to find those answers, and not even answers, because I don't think that, as a storyteller, I don't think it's my goal to provide answers to people. It's my goal to like, make people think and maybe guide them towards what I think, but they don't have to necessarily agree. I think I always like a musical that ends on a question um? Rather than a like here's I, I would. I would not be a good Asok. Let's say I'm not here for morals.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I'm here for explorations, yes, and so I, you know, I think most of the time I have an idea and will email Julia and be like is this crazy? And she's like, no, that's great. I think you know, a lot of them are pulled from kind of, as my bio said, like pop culture, mythology, so things that are like little random articles you hear about, or things that are on it like six 28 at the local news, like little human interest stories that are strange.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And those are things that really interest me, and just things that, like, resonate with what I want to know about the world, which is, you know, how people, how and why people are people yes, it's interesting because we have different, like we came from similar backgrounds, but we have different avenues at which we've explored that same conundrum, but we're it's the same query, that we're both kind of like navigating just in such different ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, so absolutely yeah, um, so, like you've written, I love that you choose these, these that, like you're pulled to like the human interest stories, like, and you're honestly you have been a pillar to me of like holding the reverence of pop culture. Yes, you do it in multifaceted ways, whether it's through writing or art. Like, can you talk about, like, what that journey has been for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, been for you. Yeah, I think. Um, I think I've always been interested in, like, ideas of celebrity and fame and infamy. Yeah, um, and I think part of that is being a proud elder millennial. Um, I think that ideas of fame shifted with that generally, with the advent of the internet and social media and all of that. Do you consider yourself Gen X fully or you're an elder?
Speaker 1:millennial too. I'm like that in between. I think that like it's interesting to me too because, like I like when, when I've been in relationships and I'm partnered with someone who's within the same age bracket but they're like a little bit older than me, they identify as Gen X and it's like literally months, yeah. But I more gravitate towards like millennial culture because, like I was still like going to shows or like interested in whatever was being created, that like I think at a certain point maybe some people are like I'm gonna put my focus towards these other things, but I've always wanted to like like whatever's being created.
Speaker 2:I'm like yes, yes, yes, yes yes, yeah, yeah, well, but I also think that there's like, there is a uh, there's like a shift from cynicism towards like just kind of searching for a pure joy. Yes, and I think that that is part of my part of what draws me to pop culture is finding the joy in it all. And finding I mean, you know, I have this. You referenced drawings I have this long standing art project that is, portraits of primarily Real Housewives, although I've branched out into other things because there's a limited number of Real Housewives moments that I can. After four years, I've gotten through most of them, I should say but I think there's like a I don't want to say reverence, but like there's like a I don't want to say reverence, but like there's like a respect for them as humans that I enjoy. And there's like it's possible to both wink at something and love it yes, and it's possible to be laughing along with something, with respect of those, both of those almost polar opposites, yeah, or bridging between those two things is feels like a being part of a little bridge to micro generation. Um, uh, but yeah, and when it comes to musicals, I feel like the stories that I want to tell, when I start telling people about what I'm writing, people are always like, oh, that's hilarious, assuming that I'm to tell. When I start telling people about what I'm writing, people are always like, oh, that's hilarious, assuming that I'm going to make fun of whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the first musical that Julia and I wrote together is called Pregnancy Pact. We started it in 2009, which was the year, or I forget if the actual thing happened in 2008 or 2009, but it was. You know, there's this story that appeared in Time Magazine about Gloucester, massachusetts, and this rash of pregnancies at their school, and the principal said blamed it on the girls making the pact to get pregnant together. You know, two months later, reporting came out that it was no, it was actually because the school changed their policy to give students free pregnancy tests but not free condoms, and so like it was a policy thing that led to that and they were in a school where it felt like they didn't have options and you know, or they were in a time and in a place where it felt like they were. Many of them felt like they didn't have options. There was no pact or anything like that, but that like took hold of the imagination and there were lifetime movies about it and there were, you know, summer beach reads about it.
Speaker 2:And when I read that article I was like this is fascinating. What, what in the world would make people do this? And so then when I started to say I want to write a musical about this, people would would be like, oh, that's so funny. And I'd be like, but it's not funny. It may be funny to someone else, but that's not what interests me. And I think that that goes along with even the funny things that I write. I don't think are like funny for the reasons people assume they will be funny. Yeah, yeah, I don't like to make fun of people. I don't like to. I'm not interested in heroes and villains and things like that. Now I feel like I've gotten away from pop culture. But yeah, it's all like.
Speaker 1:But it's all connected.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you can see, you know, kenya Moore twirling on the Real Housewives of Atlanta saying she's gone with the wind fabulous. I'm like, yes, it's silly, but there's also something wonderful about it and it's like beautiful the colors that she's wearing against the background.
Speaker 1:And so, you know, drawing it is is funny, but it also it doesn't have to be making fun of people yeah, I feel like, whether you're writing a musical or you're creating a piece of art, what, what I hear and what you say is like finding the humanity in whatever the subject is, is what keeps you away from like mockery keeps you, keeps you, it keeps you connected to like what the felt experience is, the human experience of it. And I feel like whether someone thinks that content would be like hilarious if the the more you stay grounded in that humanity. That's how, like I know in our previous conversations we've talked, we've talked about like camp and and like camp done well, is, is, is a story that has the humanity in it and like. Maybe we'll have moments of like humor, but there's a real felt sense of like. I feel with this character, or I see this piece of art and I'm like oh, oh, I remember that, but also I felt that Absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's like this balance of irreverence and reverence. Yeah, how do you hold both of those at the same time? Yeah, yeah, as a musical theater writer not to go all Rodney Dangerfield, but like there is a certain. There's a certain. There's a certain like I don't know sheen over musical theater that people make assumptions about what it is and what it isn't. Yes, and so I think that that in and of itself is like a reason that people assume things are silly because they think musicals are silly.
Speaker 2:You know, this is a little side comment, but I feel like writing musicals is one of the only things that people can look at you and say, oh, I hate the thing that you made, and feel like that's fine. I've had so many like good friends of mine. Be like, well, musicals are stupid, but I. Or be like, well, musicals are stupid, like, but I or be like, well, I don't like musicals, and I'm like, but that's literally what I'm devoting my life to Jesus. Yeah, wow. So I think there's there's like a little, there's like a little dismissiveness about musicals. Yeah, there's like a little dismissiveness about musicals, yeah um, but so that's separate from camp, I guess.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, or maybe, is it not?
Speaker 1:maybe not because I feel like okay, so I I want okay. So here's a wondering I have do you think that, like disdain for musical theater stems from like assumption based on like classical musical theater, where it's like the you know the very predictable tropes that I honestly think it stems from people being forced to go see their friends and use in their high school musicals.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, they're like they're. You know, maybe, maybe seven to eight percent of high school musicals are good and well done, but like that's part of how people learn yeah, you know, gotta start somewhere, you know. Oklahoma is a phenomenal, incredible musical. Yes, anything by by Rodgers and Hammerstein, they like invented the form, they did. Anything by Rodgers and Hammerstein, they like invented the form.
Speaker 2:Anything by you know, the Pajama Game is a wonderful musical and silly and fun, and all that, a show ahead of its time yeah, I love the Pajama Game, but like, but when you see that with, when you see it done in in certain setting, in a certain whatever, and you get the sense that that's what it is, then people are primed to think that that's all. Musicals are Fair and I have started to turn that around to be like well, if people can say that they think musicals are stupid to my face, then I have no problem saying I think that Marvel movies are stupid to people's faces even when they're wearing a you know'm. Like you think it's silly that people think out of nowhere, but I think it's silly that people take superheroes seriously when they're silly too, Like I don't know it's all I mean all of it could be misconstrued as silly without that context to the humanity in it.
Speaker 2:Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah. So let's come back to the camp piece. Yes, I totally did, Because I asked that question, because I got like curious about it. And it's not me dissing on classical musical theater just to say because, like you know, West Side Story is still one of my all-time favorite shows I've ever been in. I've ever seen oh, absolutely who?
Speaker 2:did you play? I've ever been in, I've ever seen, oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Who did you play? I'm embarrassed. You don't have to say.
Speaker 2:Did you play Maria? Yes, it's okay. We all have those moments. We all have those times. We shouldn't have done them. It was a different time. It was a different time. We wouldn't do them now.
Speaker 1:No, we would not.
Speaker 2:Which is also funny, because you'd be a great Graziella. Ugh Oobly-oo. Or is that Gra whatever the other one is. I forget Graziella and Velma.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been a minute since. I've seen it.
Speaker 2:Velma, is it Velma?
Speaker 1:No In the Sharks. Yeah, in the Jets In the Sharks, yeah, in the.
Speaker 2:Jets In, the Jets In the.
Speaker 1:Jets, the Jets. I don't know because I wasn't in the Jets world.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But back to camp.
Speaker 2:But back to camp. I mean that's camp. I mean, true, casting a white girl is camp Truth, but high schoolers don't know what camp is and therefore they see it and the high schoolers who are performing it don't understand that it's camp. And so maybe that's why people don't make musicals.
Speaker 1:I wonder the misunderstanding of what camp is.
Speaker 2:Well, that gets to the question of whether camp is always intentional or not, which I don't know the answer to.
Speaker 1:Okay, here's a question as we start talking about this topic what is the campiest show you've ever seen? That was done perfectly.
Speaker 2:Not perfectly, but really great. Uh, no, but really great. The. The best use of camp to me is always charles bush. Um, the one that I saw multiple times was um the divine sister, which was the send-up of none movies, uh, but everything by charles bush is like definitionally. Everything by the B-52s is definitionally camp. You know everything by um, oh gosh, and I think there's a difference between camp and comedy. I think camp is there's like an archness and a queerness to it, always Um, but I think that that is like. Charles Bush is my and the B-52s are my gold standard for what camp is.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So what about you?
Speaker 1:I mean, if I'm just narrowing it down to musical theater, I'm going to go back to one of the shows that I remember talking to you about many years ago Debbie Does Dallas. I think that was the first show that I saw where I was actively aware, like, okay, we are playing with so many different, but there's there's heart in it. There's like I felt connected, like I felt connected to the characters in a way that I would in a comedy or a drama of any other format, and I had never had that experience. So I'm just talking about theater, I'd say. Debbie does dallas, however, I mean my number one movie that I love of all time is the campiest piece of stuff that has ever existed. It's a parody of the pirates of penzance, but it was done in, I think, 1982 or 1983. It's called the pirate movie and they take who is it? Christopher, christopher atkins and christy mcnichol. Okay, I feel like I have. I might afford you to watch it at some point.
Speaker 1:Okay, it's on youtube. You can watch the whole movie for free wonderful they take some of the actual gilbert and sullivan uh music, rewrite the lyrics so like during I am the very model of a modern major, major, general it's like man I'm older than the Beatles, but I'm younger than the Rolling Stones. He's older than the Beatles, but he's younger than the Rolling Stones. It's ridiculous. So there's that part of it. But then there's also because of the time frame.
Speaker 1:They wrote their own 80s synth pop wonderful and it's all done as a dream sequence amazing because we love a dream sequence. We love a dream sequence, but like so, yeah, uh, like there's like real, like like when they meet on a beach, which I visited in Australia because I love the movie so much, I went to all the places they filmed it.
Speaker 2:That's incredible.
Speaker 1:But when they meet on the beach there's this like super imposed, you know, like those pictures from was it Olin Mills in like the 80s where they had the head in the background and then the person's in the front like ah, um, yeah, that's how the like meeting is on the beach, where they're like singing to each other, but then there's this like super imposed floating head of them singing, oh god incredible, it's incredible and that was my introduction to camp was when I was like a baby, baby, like.
Speaker 1:That movie had been out for a few years by the time I saw it and I fell in love with it. I watched it, like I want to say every day.
Speaker 2:Incredible that it's that I feel like my introduction was probably Big Business, oh, which I feel like qualifies. Yeah, lily Tomlin and Bette Midler.
Speaker 1:But All right. So can we talk about speaking of like finding material in camp and all these things? Can we talk about the musical that you wrote about Anita Bryant?
Speaker 2:Yes, rap, rest in Pie. Rest in Pie, bryant. Yes, rap, rest in pie. That wasn't my joke. I think it was Coco Peru's joke. Okay, I can't claim credit for it, but it was too perfect, okay, yes, she just passed away a few weeks ago at 84.
Speaker 2:She would have turned 85 in March okay, was this one of those experiences where you saw a story and said, oh, I got to write about that um, it was, and I feel like it's pretty emblematic in that it was like I saw a moment, which is the moment that Anita Bryant got a pie thrown in her face and was like that's the kernel of an idea, and then found the story around that and I think that that's, you know, pulling from pop culture Higgins throwing the pie in her face, posing as a journalist, throwing a pie in her face, and then she and her husband, you know, she says at least it's a fruit pie, which is hilarious.
Speaker 2:And then she remembers that she should start to cry and she and her husband pray for him and all this stuff start to cry and she and her husband pray for him and all this stuff. And it just felt like, you know, I wanted to know what brought him there and what brought her there, and they were, and so, yeah, and so the story grew out of that. I think at first I didn't even think that he was going to be that big a part of it. I thought maybe he would be like a, you know, always lurking with a pie in the background. I thought it would be much sillier than it was, than it wound up being um, that would have been a very different show.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes but what it wound up being was, um, you know, kind of somewhat controversially humanizing Anita.
Speaker 2:I think for me there's a fine line between empathy and sympathy and this is a show that's big on empathy and not big on sympathy.
Speaker 2:So this show wound up being kind of like dual protagonist story, and it's weird to say that the protagonist of the musical is Anita Bryant, who is a generally and deservedly reviled person among my various communities, my various communities, um, and whose legacy comes back up all the time save our children, save our children in, you know, the current discussion about grooming and all those horrifying things, um, but there is a part of me that's like well, she was a person at one point before she was a caricature, and how did she get there? And how did you know cause she was semi-famous, she had a million lives, she you know, reading about her, she was this person, the kind of person who was like I am born for something great. She was like you know she I'm going to mess up the story because it's been a while since I read her biography but you know, she was born and pronounced dead at birth and then her grandmother, like, brought her back to life.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that, oh yeah, so I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember the exact story, but something where she was like I was saved by God for something great, and so the story is about her trying to find what that greatness is and she, you know, starts. We first meet her when she loses Miss America, and then we see her be like a middling pop star, and then we see her be like a middling pop star and then a spokeswoman, like spokeshome maker for Orange Juice, which is probably where she became most famous was as the Orange Juice lady, and then all these different things. And then she started to she like went on this crusade against, uh, I mean it was specifically against teachers, gay teachers. In miami there was an ordinance that she spoke up against, um, that would allow for the firing of employee. It was a non-discrimination ordinance, um, and she spoke out against it. And then, kind of ordinance, um, and she spoke out against it and then kind of took off nationally and had the whole save our children campaign and everything like that. Yeah, um, and so it's a you know, it's a, it's not a traditional hero um, uh.
Speaker 2:And then it that her story is told next to the story of a more imagined story of Tom Higgins who we don't. There isn't a ton to know about him. So in our story he's Tommy and in many ways he's a surrogate for me in that story talking about. You know what it felt like to grow up, what it felt like to grow up, what it felt like to come out, what it felt like to be disillusioned by people who you know what's looked up to and all this stuff and so it. You know in the end they meet in the pie, with a pie in the face, with a pie and you know it starts out the.
Speaker 2:The first song is Tommy baking a pie with his mom and she says whenever life is bad, there's always pie. And that comes true in the end. Genius, but it's. You know it's like a silly. It is also a silly show.
Speaker 2:There are six actors who play all you know Anita and Tommy, and then an ensemble of four who play all of the other characters, including Tammy Faye and Phil Donahue and Lawrence Welk and Kathy Lee Gifford, who was as a child or as a young woman, was Anita Bryant's babysitter when she was Catherine Epstein, right after she was born again. Yeah, wow, I mean, and it's like one of those there. There's so much pop culture in it and so much like, so many little reference points that are that were so much fun for me too. And Marianne Mobley is the person she lost Miss America to, who went on to become another like, like minor celebrity, who was like the kind of person who was on Love Boat and things like that and was, you know, was on 70s game shows and et cetera, et cetera, who was married to, I want to say, gary Cooper, like it. Just, you know, there's all that fun classic pop culture and when we did our production of it.
Speaker 2:They our amazing, incredible costume. Well, the set design was we did a production at Diverginary Theater in San Francisco or San Diego, sorry which is the third oldest LGBT theater company in the country wonderfully, lgbt theater company in the country, wonderfully. They're an incredible little theater who does big and they do big, big things. And our set design was made to look it almost looked like the match game set, yes, or like laughing slash match game. So there are like windows that people could pop out of um, and the costumes for all of the like celebrities were almost like paper doll cutouts, so people were had like a neutral costume and for the people in tommy's life and and like anita's sister and things like that, they wore regular clothing but like, when the actress came out as as kathy lee she was in, she had like paper sculpted hair and a flat dress in front of her that she danced with um, and so, you know, there's that like archness about it and that sensibility about it that is.
Speaker 1:That is camp in its way yeah there's, that was long, sorry, that's okay, like there's so many pieces, I like took a couple notes because I was like I want to come back to that. I want to come back to that. I I think this whole process of like the unlikely hero in the story I'm hearing like so much about, like when you say the difference between empathy and sympathy and I talk to people a lot about that in the work that I do because, like Brene Brown, I don't know if you've ever seen Brene Brown's video about the difference between empathy and sympathy- I have not no, oh, it's a great one.
Speaker 1:It's on YouTube. It's like a little cartoon and someone has animated it and I don't know the illustrator, so I feel bad for for bringing it up without naming the illustrator. Um, but the the whole concept of the video is like saying empathy is feeling with the other and sympathy is trying, essentially trying to divert someone's attention away from. So, like empathy is, oh, this is terrible, tell me about it. Can I sit with you in this? Sympathy is, oh, sorry, that sucks, you want sandwich? Like right, like that's sympathy.
Speaker 1:And I think when you're telling the story about, like when you're choosing to write this story and you're like, okay, I'm gonna make this show about this person that has made efforts that are not necessarily full of empathy, but I'm choosing to write a story about empathy and I'm going to tell both characters stories, it's I hear, and what you're saying is like I will infuse humanity into both characters, because that is the bridge between myself and I know. You said like tommy's character is like the voice that might be your voice in the story, right, but it also sounds like you're infusing the humanity into anita's character as well, so that it it's like the're infusing the humanity into Anita's character as well, so that it's like the bridge builder between the differences. Does that I mean? Does that I don't know like? What are your thoughts of that? It feels very poignant to me as we speak about this today, in 2025.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, I think I think that it goes back to this whole idea that I don't. I don't necessarily fully invest in the idea of heroes and villains. Yeah, I don't, I don't invest in ideas of, because the second you have a hero and a villain, someone is another and someone loses their humanity on both sides. I mean, you know, because then heroes have to become infallible and can't be human and villains are deprived of their humanity.
Speaker 2:And, yes, there are people who do terrible things, um, and there are people who are doing terrible things right now, but I think the only way I think not the only way, because I don't know how to solve the world problems but I think that the approach that resonates with me is to think about the human side of it, because I think the only way you can connect with people is through humanity. So the only way I can talk to people who I have political disagreements with is by recognizing that they're a person and not what's the Gen Z? Not an op to show my one and a half generations to remove from, from the lingo, um, but and I think that I think that a lot, of, a lot of the things that I write about are like that. That you know. It's not about letting people off the hook. It's not about making excuses for people, because seeing someone as human isn't making an excuse for them.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:It is saying this is the place where it's the the only possible way that we can meet is by is by having empathy for one another, and the only way that I can tell you that you're wrong is by talking to you as a human and not as you know, I think it's the opposite of Twitter basically, or X, I don't like calling it X. Twitter basically, or X, I don't like calling it X but the opposite of social media is, you know, is that is empathy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it takes the humanity out of it and to me it just screams like all the more reason, like all the more importance for art, because art is like, the creation of art is finding that that connectivity, not only from character to character, but from characters to audience, it's like. So this kind of like then starts to lean us towards the idea of perception. Um, but just, it just feels so I don't know, it just feels so important right now. I don't know what I have to say about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and I think I think that I think that people, I think that right now is a it's a hard time. It's a hard time to think deeply because there's so much to think about and there's so much coming at us at all times, and so it's hard to like. Let me sit for an afternoon and think about this one idea, because then you get a push notification on your phone that, oh, there have been two plane crashes, it's just nonstop bombardment, um, and that's really overwhelming. But yeah, yeah, the it's, and I think that's been going on for eight years now, nine years now, that in one way or another, there's like this overarching sense of dread that's hard to push through. Well, this is the sad part of the conversation.
Speaker 2:But I think that it's easy to get caught up in the dread when it's not, when it's about forces rather than people conversations.
Speaker 1:We've talked a little bit about that, but we were talking about it in through the lens of creation, like creating art. Um, there's my individual experience, and then there's also what the collective experience of this piece of art really will be. Um, we can tie it to being an artist in the world that we live in now, or or we can tie to just the general experience. Your choice. How do you navigate individual identity versus like collective experience identity, like? How do we maneuver through that when you're creating a piece of art?
Speaker 2:Well, I think in musical theater there's very little room for individual identity, because it is an entirely collaborative form. Theater in general is collaborative, but I think that musical theater is made by a community. So, while I may have the germ of the idea, the you know silly metaphor, but, like I may be, be the grain of sand, but the pearl is made by everyone. Um so like, uh, yeah, I mean, I think there's so many layers of community in musical theater that, you know, I write a lyric, but then my lyric is forever changed by the way that the composer sets it, which is forever changed by the voice of the person who sings it, both practically and just interpretively.
Speaker 2:You know, there's no, I am, I am not a performer like that. And so I, you know, I am not a performer like that. And so I, you know, I need someone else to do those things. And then, you know, and then working with a director and a creative team will always bring out new things about it. And and bring, you know, I think, even if it just starts with my point of view, my point of view, the point of view of the piece will always come back to me, but it will always be shaped by other people.
Speaker 2:You know, talking about the production of the Loneliest Girl in the World, the Anita Bryant show, like I had no idea how it would be designed and that is not how I would have thought that it would be designed, but it made, it gave so much. It gave it, built upon the ideas of the show, so much to have paper doll costumes and a game show set. And so you know, there are all of those layers. And then the last layer is I write for audiences. I don't write well, I mean, I always have to answer. I always hate the question who is your audience? Because I'm like my audience is people, uh, but I, I wouldn't get anywhere if I only wrote for myself. So, like, the last thing is always, the audience is the final collaborator, um, in, in figuring out what, what art is, yeah, and I think that that. So I think in. I mean, I don't think there is any kind of art that isn't, by in in its nature, a collective experience.
Speaker 1:That's fair, because once you, I mean go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like like once something goes into a museum, the curator is deciding where it goes, how it's Not always even how it's displayed, but what it's next to what story it's telling. Within a room, within a gallery, yeah, and the people walking by are experiencing it the way that they're experiencing it, and so so you know, a painting is a painting, but the way that people see the painting is just as much about the painting, is just as much the definition of the painting as what the artist put onto the canvas yeah, I, it's like that concept of like you create something but once you give it to the world, it takes on a new.
Speaker 1:So this, this concept of transformation, like how big is the transformation is? Is it a partial transformation, is it a full transformation? But we don't ever really actually know if it's the audience experience or, like you know, perceiver of the art, because we don't have all of their like background of experiences in which they see through the lenses of. But if it's theater, I think it's just so much about, like, the reaction to like do people say whoa after a show? Or yeah, tell other people about it. I saw the show, I'd like you to go see it too. It was important.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I feel like once it that that type of response is often the like. That's the transform, transformation where it's no longer it's like, you know, whenever we do a show and the and the director's like this is your show, now it's like, uh, I remember being like a young theater kid, being like I don't even know what that means. I'm just gonna do what you told me to do and I'll do it. But then later, like after doing of making that show, and I'm like, oh my gosh, that must be. Has there ever been a time that you've created a show and said wow, I did not expect that to be the response, but it's changed it completely.
Speaker 2:Um gosh, I don't, I'm not sure. I'm not sure how to answer that. I mean, there's certainly, you know, that's the power of doing a reading and doing a workshop and things like that is understanding, understanding how rhythms work and understanding what is resonating with people, and I think there are. I mean, I do think that you're always looking for how people respond. I've been very lucky to be able to have been writing a lot.
Speaker 2:A lot of what I've written has been in writers groups, so there's like constantly getting feedback from other writers and directors and things, um, and so there's that level. There's like then, when you finally present a full thing, there's that level of response and feedback. And there are, um, you know, a lot of. I think. A lot of what I look for is confirmation in the things that land and then finding the ways, finding because you can tell from the get-go if something is confusing, from the get-go if something is confusing. And, yeah, there have certainly been times that I've presented things and people have been very confused by them, and that's fine and that's useful. But it doesn't feel good in the moment, but it's useful, that's fair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can we talk a little bit about the show that you're working on now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it and I want the world to know about it.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. Well, so it's called these Familiar Spirits and it is about a reunion of some of the Salem witch trial accusers who come back to Salem Village 23 or so years after the end of the trials and the witch hysteria and everything that was going on then, so in 1716, as they come back to attend the funeral of one of their fellow accusers and we follow four women who are now in their 30s and 40s who are kind of revisiting this moment for the first time. Three of the four of them haven't returned there since they left after the trials. They've all gone on to have families and have homes and all of these things, but they've been kind of haunted by those events and what they did and what was done to them and all sorts of things. And at the same time, and what they did and what was done to them and all sorts of things, and at the same time, while those four survivors of it come together, there are also a handful of ghosts of people who have passed away in those intervening years who are there as well, kind of guiding the living people towards a resolution that then comes when the magic happens that the worlds collide and they face what they've done and, um, yeah, I mean our, our stupid elevator pitch of it is this is the crucible meets the big chill. Um, but you know it's not the crucible, because the crucible, the crucible is a wonderful play, but the crucible has very little to do with history. Um, and so you know it's, it's some of the names that you would recognize from the crucible, if you know the crucible. Uh, but the people are very, very different. Um, and yeah, it came out of.
Speaker 2:We started writing it or I guess I had the idea, much like all things.
Speaker 2:I was like, hmm, I wonder if anyone knows what happened to mercy lewis and I've always loved mercy lewis because her, the stage direction that introduces her in the Crucible, is something like she's like a fat and sly girl of 17 or something like that Fat and sly, or plump and sly, something like that.
Speaker 2:And I've always just been like who is the person who is describing this poor Like? That is how she's remembered forever and you know, and there are other pieces of art that have, there are TV shows that have used her and other things, but I've always been like whatever happened to her, always been like whatever happened to her. And so I started researching it and and found out the stories of all sorts of the accusers. And when I found out that Ann Putnam Jr, who was one of the main accusers, her parents, the Putnams Thomas and Anne Sr, were like In some tellings of the story, were like the people who pushed it forward to gain more power in the town and all sorts of things. So when I found out that she died when she was 36, it felt like that was an opportunity to bring them all together.
Speaker 2:And they all you know, they lived in Gloucester or Woburn or you know places that were not far from Salem Salem Village, which is different from Salem Now, danvers. Danvers, massachusetts, is now the town that at one point had the witch trials. But, yeah, and it just is like a so yeah, sorry, we started it in, we started thinking about it in like late 2020, early 2021, as, like, how do we a story about reckoning with harms that you have caused and harms that have been done to you, and how in the world do you move through that? And, like you know, these people did something terrible, um, whether or not they were puppets of other people to do these things. They are the names that are remembered.
Speaker 2:Abigail williams is the name that is remembered as, like this traitorous woman who was actually an 11-year-old girl who did not have an affair with John Proctor, who was 60. Thanks, arthur Miller. But also, like you know, the story is that she, they were like doing stupid little fortune-telling things to find out about their future husbands as 11 year olds, as a 9 and 11 year old, and as we do it sleepovers at that age exactly and abigail, in the fortune telling they were doing, saw a coffin and was freaked out by it and that's like the thing that started.
Speaker 2:It was like like a very regular little occurrence that led to all of this. You know historical upheaval.
Speaker 1:Which feels well, let's just say wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, and it's. You know, it's also about like going back and looking at the crucible. When I think about that play, when I think about stories, the girls are always the thing that's the most interesting to me and they're like literally barely in it, my adorable little nieces I shouldn't call them little nieces because they're freshmen in high school or they're in the ninth grade. Their high school did a production of the crucible this year and I went, got to go see it and they played two of the accusers and they are like literally barely in it. Abigail does more as, but like abigail's presented as some tart, like yeah, uh, and, and so it was shocking to me that they were given such little voice. And again, like anita bryant, they're these people who did something that we understand to be terrible, but they're human beings and they got to that place somehow and got away from that place somehow. And what is that story? And that's kind of the heart of what we're writing.
Speaker 1:I love it. I was privileged enough to hear Act One, at least at that point in time. I'm sure it's changed by this point, but it's so incredibly cool. Are you like? Is there a theater? That's like commissioning this to be move into a production, or where are you in the journey of this?
Speaker 2:It was commissioned by Flint Repertory Theater in Flint, michigan. They produced the world premiere of our show, the Magnificent Seven. They produced the world premiere of our show the Magnificent Seven about the 96 Olympic women's gymnastics team US women's gymnastics team. And so we've done one reading. I think I haven't looked at our contract in a while. I think we, like we'll have another reading and then they have the first right of refusal to produce it. But there's no guarantee that they'll produce it.
Speaker 2:But um, but we love them, we, you know, we've kind of found a sweet spot with lovely, daring, um, smaller regional theaters who uh have is really, I mean, I think they're smart artistic directors because they're programming our work, but like artistic directors who do things and and artistic and like create uh, artistic leadership that does not only our work but work by friends and work by people we respect, that like would be considered challenging. Um, yeah, uh, that are different from doing, you know, a wonderful production of noises off, which has its own merits it does, but there's less, less risk taking and allowing new like.
Speaker 2:I think it's a big risk to allow, especially for like arts organizations today, um, who are worried about bottom lines but then they're not willing to allow new voices into those spaces yeah, it's a freaky time to be to be making theater, um, but you know, theater has always been made and always will be made, and amen, it may just, it may just be a paradigm shift yeah, but I'm so excited about this show and and whenever the next reiteration comes around, I don't see it yes, I'm, I'm excited.
Speaker 2:We've been recording madly recording demos, because we had we had a reading in november in michigan that was very brief and so we didn't get a full sense of the score, um, because it was just too much to ask of actors. They did wonderful, wonderful work and, um, now we are bringing it back and instead of asking, you know, seven actors to learn 40 songs, we've asked a bunch of friends to learn a handful of songs each to record, um, and so, yeah, so we're we should be mixing those this month, I hope, which will be nice to hear.
Speaker 1:Nice. So, gordon, we've talked about a lot of different themes throughout this conversation. Whether it's through your drawing, your art that you've made or the pieces of theater that you've created, a lot of those themes explore the humanity and the humanity of the characters, their voice, their identities. Can you talk a little bit more about, like, how does self-definition of identity play into those, uh, that process? Um, whether it's through community, whether it's through your creative art itself, the medium, can you talk more about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that something as a person, something that I've always struggled with, is like the need for self-definition and the need for very clearly defining who I am and what I do, and I think that has come up in all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:I think, you know, in a weird way, there was a part of me that was like scared to kind of to become to have this art project that gained followers online and all that kind of stuff, because I was like no, but I as an artist, I'm a musical theater writer, even though growing up, I performed, I played piano, I was a visual artist, I, you know, did all sorts of different arts. But then I felt for some reason, like after college going into and maybe it was just because I went into debt to become a musical theater writer that I felt like I had to, I had to call myself that. But there was this moment, especially during the pandemic, when we couldn't make live theater, that I was like oh, I need to define myself less by. I need to define myself less by the one thing I do and instead define myself by how I see myself in the world and what I see, more than what I do.
Speaker 1:You mean, like what you see in the world and how you see it.
Speaker 2:Yes, like my point of view is more how I define myself than the way I express that point of view Fire, questions about camp. That goes back to the questions about um, empathy and goes back to all of those things that I realized that the ways I define myself as a musical theater writer are actually the ways I define myself as a person, not just an artist, um, and and you know, and part of that self-definition is also constantly trying to figure out or not trying to figure out, but, like it took me a long time. I use they and them pronouns. I consider myself agender, realized that in 2017, to the moment, that I first asked people to use they and them pronouns, it was like five years because, to me, I was like I have to know exactly what this means and exact, I have to know all of the specifics of what it is and who, so that when people have questions, I can answer them and I can feel confident about what I'm doing. And and I think that that was like actually really detrimental because, again, like, everything is a process and everything is part of a whole um, and I'm like not disappointed in myself that I didn't allow that, but like I felt like I had to work through and know how to define it. That and that was that just wound up not being the case, and so I think this like weird incessant need for self-definition comes out in my writing too, in that I think you know from your the lovely introduction that you read from my website that said it's about the search for identity that what I've realized, and especially realized with this most recent, with this new project, is that I write about people who are looking for the way to define themselves, that it's not just like what's my identity, it's who am I in the world outside of, how other people perceive me, and that these, the women who grew out of being witch accusers in everyone else's eyes, that's who they are and how, how, and that's how they are seen and how do the how, can they find a way to see themselves? That's different from that. You know. Even Anita Bryant, you know, is about defining herself. She knows that she's going to be great. What is the definition of greatness?
Speaker 2:For her Pregnancy Pact is about these girls who need something. You know not to be a name dropper, but we were working on it in a writer's group and we had a guest one night when we brought in material and it was Janine Tesori and we shared the song. One night, when we brought in material and it was Janine Tesori and we shared the song, and she was like you know what, her daughter was a teenager at this point and she was like the thing that gets me walking my daughter grow up is that literally the way the world works now everything is possible and that sounds like such a wonderful thing and it sounds like such a great, everything's wide open, but the flip side of that is that can be really overwhelming. Yes and so.
Speaker 2:And so this show became about these the need of these girls to define themselves in a way that, like the world wasn't their oyster and to go back to pearls, I guess, uh, but like the there were. There were too many things that they could be and they needed to just make a decision because the world was scary, otherwise, um and. And the decision that they made was we are going to be a family and so it's just. It was interesting, this like crazy aha moment when I had the realization that everything I've ever written has been about how do I define myself apart from how the world defines me, or how do I, how do I I'm making the hand motion of pulling things apart? How do I, how do I separate those two things? And how do I know who I am, even if it's different from what other people think I am?
Speaker 1:Yes, it's such a relevant experience today in the world that we live in because I feel like there's. There's so much multiplicity of who we are as humans in the world, like I'm doing a podcast with you right now. So right now I'm in the role and there's a. There's a type of drama therapy. That's like role theory and it goes into all these like different roles we play in our lives. But like, right now I'm in the role of podcast host.
Speaker 1:But like I don't inhabit podcast host in every part of my life. I don't leave this and go. Okay, cats, now I'm going to ask you a question about what you want for dinner, and how does that influence? Right, right, right, but like someone, but. Or like I work like, when you ask somebody, what do you? Who are you?
Speaker 1:They often start with here's how I get paid in the world. I am paid as a accountant, I am paid as a lawyer, I am paid as a therapist and therefore I'm a therapist accountant. I am paid as a lawyer, I am a paid as a therapist and therefore I'm a therapist. And so, like, we get so stuck in the rigidity of like, what role has value? And so therefore, you, the, the perceiver, seem to have value in this, and so I will share this with you. And then, like you're saying, with your characters, they were the accusers for a part of their life and then they were all these other things in their lives, but we still know them as the accusers in the world that we live in today. It's like now.
Speaker 1:There's like social media influencers who are like I'm going to make content with my dog, or like whatever, and they become that, and they always say like that and they always say, like, if you're an influencer, find your niche. They said that about when I researched podcasts what's your niche like? What's your podcast about? I'm like, uh, literally everything right, humanity, a sense of self, like navigating the world, relationship, like how do we do all of this stuff? But we do do it. How do we express ourselves? Like all of it.
Speaker 1:But I think what happens is people get I know I'm rambling, but they get truncated into I am a musical theater writer, I am an artist, I am a therapist and you start to believe it yourself. Like when I went down the drama therapy path, I was like I started saying, well, I'm an actor, I'm a singer and I'm trying the drama therapy out as my next chapter. But the longer I was on the journey, the more I was like I'm a therapist and you forget like, oh, I was also, I am not was. I am also a performer, I am also and.
Speaker 2:And then you get pigeonholed in your boxes yeah, yeah, well, and you and there's like a certain I find at least that like if you aren't, if you aren't certain, if there's not certitude about what you're doing, then you aren't really that thing. That like if I don't say I'm a musical theater writer, then am I really one.
Speaker 1:If I don't, if I don't, I I don't know other examples, but like yeah strodinger's cat like does the cat exist in the box if we can't see the cat?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, well, and I, and I think you know not that social media is 100 evil. There are things that are good about it and you can use it for many different things, but there is a certain element of like, uh, uh, like, just like the general branding of life, more than there is defining of life, that, like, everything is about a brand, and I find that, as a writer too, like what's your brand? And I'm like I'm not, I'm not an advertising executive, I'm not, that's not it, it's. It's hard, it's a hard thing to navigate and to figure out and, yeah, and I think it, I think that it goes back to, like the ideas of empathy and grace, yes, and that, like it's not. Things are ever evolving and nothing is nothing. Nothing exists in the extreme. Some things get very close to the extreme, don't get me wrong. What present as if they want to be the extreme, even if they're not, um, but like real humanity exists in. In the what's the word, not the in the in between in the ambiguity.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's where life is. Life is in the ambiguity. But we keep creating all these like rigid structures to try to like, cling on, to Cause, maybe like, like the like the girls in the pregnancy pack, cause it's too overwhelming, there's much so might as well, and I think you know, I think that not to go back to talking shit about them.
Speaker 2:Sorry to swear.
Speaker 2:I don't know if this is a swearing podcast you can swear all you want great, um, not to talk shit about superhero movies, but I feel like the reason people love superhero movies is because of, like, the certain amount of moral certitude that comes in them and that there is a world in which things are good and evil and and I mean, I'm a little talking out of I don't know, I'm a little speaking out of of I don't know, I'm a little speaking out of turn because I haven't seen them but there is like that's. What draws us to those kinds of stories is certitude, and maybe that's why I don't like superhero movies, cause I don't like certitude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's the ambiguity, cause that's where the humanity is. The humanity is in the multiplicity, it's in the ambiguity, but when these rigid structures come in, it's like, oh, I am this. I think, yeah, you're right, social media is not all bad, but it certainly does funnel. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and it like it also forces us to only share good things and all of that stuff, right, and it forces like it forces. You know, back in the days of oh gosh, what was it called? The like, was it Zanga Zinga?
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Zanga, the like journaling, yes, like the other live app. Yeah, it's a live journal. Yes, yes, yes, yes, but like we've moved so far away from that. But even that was a performance, Like you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, Tumblr was a performance Everything.
Speaker 1:Everything is. You know. Yeah, well, tumblr was a performance. Everything, everything is well and you can, you can detect, like, who's really like turning it on and who's who's just trying to be like, well, this is. I guess I'll just talk about this thing like you can feel it. You can feel it energetically, yeah, but like I mean, I've had these conversations with my own therapist, of like, when I'm like, well, I'm making content for social media now and she's like which you are they getting?
Speaker 2:and I'm like oh but like, but like. What's masking, what's that? You know exactly.
Speaker 1:Gordon, thank you so much for coming in and chatting with me about all the all the things that you do and how you navigate all of it.
Speaker 2:Thanks for letting me I feel like I just expounded. So thanks, thanks for giving me, for giving me a platform to further define myself, to further define myself as a podcast guest.
Speaker 1:If folks are interested in hearing your work, seeing your work or learning more about you, where can they find you?
Speaker 2:You can find information on my website which, speaking of camp and an encapsulation of my identity, is omfgordoncom. I always love that. That's the best place.
Speaker 1:I love remembering that that is your website, like, yeah, that tracks.
Speaker 2:Somebody else had gordonlearycom, so we went for that instead. There's some guitar teacher, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, thanks, gordon, thanks Thank you, thank you, thank you.