Michele Letendre: Programming for an Evolving Fitness Industry

Coaching has evolved—and programming must evolve with it.

Today on the “Strength Coach Collective,” host Kenny Markwardt sits down with HWPO Affiliate head coach Michele Letendre to talk about what effective programming looks like in today’s gyms.

They explore how program design has shifted over the years and what gym owners and coaches need to do to stay relevant in an increasingly educated, wellness-focused market.

Michele shares how her experience as a competitive CrossFit athlete and programmer helped shape HWPO’s current multi-track approach.

She explains how thoughtful program design—including blending strength cycles, aerobic development, accessory work and skill-specific blocks—creates better adherence, engagement and results.

Michele also breaks down polarized training and explains why recovery is becoming just as important as intensity.

Tune in to hear Michele’s tips for building smarter programming and staying ahead in a changing industry.

Links

Strength Coach Collective

1:58 - Games to HWPO Affiliate head coach

15:25 - The evolution of program design

21:47 - HWPO Affiliate’s 6 programs

27:07 - What is polarized training?

45:01 - Recovery & the future of fitness

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

True excellence in program design involves staying at the forefront of science while also enhancing fun through creativity. To talk about how to do that best, I'm here with Hard Work Pays Off affiliate head coach, Michelle LaTondra. Welcome to the Strength Coach Collective, a podcast brought to you by Two Brain Business. We are here to help advance the strength and conditioning coaching community by bringing you a wide range of experts in the field. Join our group at strengthcoachcollective.com. For today's episode, I'm your host, Kenny Marquardt. Michelle, welcome.

SPEAKER_00: 0:37

Kenny, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01: 0:39

Thanks for doing this. We were laughing about how long we've been in our respective positions in this industry, and I think we're both surprised at how old we are and that this is not possible.

SPEAKER_00: 0:52

I'm going to not comment too much publicly on that because I know that a lot of People like to complain how old they are. And then older people are like, they don't know. I have a colleague that was 31 and was like, I'm so old. I was like, no, you're not.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09

Yeah. Isn't that a weird, that's such a bizarre experience. Because now I'm doing, I'm hearing that on both sides. I'm doing the same. I'm making... like suggestions to people younger than me about how they, you know, when I was your age. So I'm not sure if that means I'm young or old or I'm not. Yeah. So

SPEAKER_00: 1:25

to be fair, I don't feel old at all. I'm just surprised at my age sometimes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29

Yeah. And that's, I think the important part, right? I think that's like, we'll get into this in a little bit, but like what we're trying to do in our, in our laboratories and in our, with our program design is help people feel young for the rest of their lives. Right.

UNKNOWN: 1:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:43

Let's back up and let's see how we got here. Again, over the unnamed number of years that we've been involved in this industry. So you're the head affiliate coach for HWPO. Let's do a synopsis of how you've gotten to where you are.

SPEAKER_00: 2:02

Well, I mean, we can go as far as my childhood. I'm an addict of sport. I've done sport my whole life, but I actually studied in school in design and in arts. So two passions in my life were sport and art and design. And when I was in school, I found CrossFit in 2009 and then found out that you can compete in CrossFit Pretty much at the same time, I discovered it. And then one month after starting it, I started competing in the scale divisions and all that stuff. And I was amazed at this world. And so I got my bachelor's in design, but immediately dove into the CrossFit space professionally and athletically at the same time. So athletically... you know, found a new sport. I had stopped my main sport many years ago, which was water polo, and I was missing what what that brought me in my life, like discipline, achievement and stuff like that. And when I found CrossFit, I was invigorated with the idea of being able to achieve things that were beyond, you know, schooling and professional stuff. So I really dove into that. And then as I kind of got interested in it, and literally when I say interested, I mean, like I would spend whatever time I wasn't in the gym, looking at YouTube videos, trying to learn how to do a clean and a snatch and just lots of looking at people doing the things. Yeah. And then I kind of Just went into it. I was the secretary at a CrossFit gym. That's pretty much how I found CrossFit. Then got my level one, discovered that I really loved coaching and I really loved teaching. It was kind of a happy discovery because really my goal was just to spend more time in the gym and I wanted to do other things than just being at the front desk. So started coaching almost immediately full time. The second I started, I graduated school. And since then, I've... you know, coached full-time, coached part-time. I've managed a gym. I've owned a gym. Like I've done it all really in the gym. I also had a little bit of time working with the CrossFit level one seminar staff doing some level one seminars in Canada for a couple of years while I was, you know, competing. So this is kind of parallel. And then when I decided to stop competing and stop the level one seminar staff, I had kind of prepared my post-athletic career to start a company called DecaComp. And DecaComp was just my vision of what competitive CrossFit could be. I had the opportunity as an athlete to have been coached by some amazing coaches. I've also been coached by some not amazing coaches and kind of had an opinion for what I felt was necessary in the space and launched DecaComp. DecaComp. And almost immediately after launching DecaComp, I initially, I started an affiliate program because my passion was really, it was in the sport. I loved coaching CrossFit competitively because it was very, very deep and there was a lot of, it just, it was so interesting. There was so much to learn, but the affiliate space is really where I felt like, I felt like professionally it was going to develop really more long lasting. So launched both of those kind of at the same time and had DECACOMP for six or seven years and didn't like the position I was in, didn't really love being head of a company, didn't love working in that space kind of on my own. And so I decided to lean all in in the affiliate programming because it's where I found a lot more depth and flexibility I found a lot more of myself in that space. And so when I realized that having a company and trying to lead a company didn't feel super authentic, I decided to reach out to HWPO training and ask them if they wanted to get in on the affiliate program. And if so, I could jump in with them. And now I'm here. I've been running the affiliate programming for HWPO for a little bit over a year now. It's been really great. Lots of really important lessons. But what's really cool is that from where I started back in 2016, 17, from affiliate programming perspective now has become really the only thing that I do and my goal and my role is to develop programs that allow affiliate owners to have diversity in their class calendars and day-to-day education that's given to them in a coaching voice rather than a seminar or a conference voice. So that's kind of where we're at. That's what I do now. I write six programs for affiliates. I'm with them every day online and that's my work.

SPEAKER_01: 7:00

That's awesome. That was a great summary. Can you talk a little bit about the DECA comp and the change there? I think I can imagine what your feelings might have been because I've experienced some of that myself. But tell me about that, the change in what you might have been wanting to do and what you were doing.

SPEAKER_00: 7:18

Yeah. So DECA comp was a great learning experience. One of the things that I tried to live by, and this is also why I decided to retire as an athlete, is just... It didn't feel super authentic to me. When you own a business, you have to be out there and you have to be, you know, a lot of prospection, a lot of selling, social media, a lot of that stuff. And it's not very natural to me. So it felt not... not like a super authentic role for who I was. I was really interested in the process. And this is something that you learn. I like to compare owning a business to being an athlete. Like when you own a business, you're on the floor and you're fighting for your life and you're fighting for your success and you're trying, it's a competitive space. And as such, you get hit with a lot of adversity, you get hit with a lot of hardship and difficulties and you learn a lot about yourself and then you grow. And so for some companies, you learn a lot about yourself you grow within your space and or not companies but owners you you kind of flourish in that role and me it was a realization much like when i was an athlete and when i owned deca comp it was a realization like this is not really who i am at its core i'm fighting against myself and i'm finding that i'm not i'm not finding much achievement and and enjoyment out of the process of owning the company so that's when you realized or at least when i realized like i think i'm more of an intrapreneur than an entrepreneur and i can lead projects i'm very strong at being coached like i can be coached i can be told we're going this way and i can make things work in my vision for going in that direction and I felt so lonely as a company owner, but not only a company owner, but a remote and digital company owner. So I just needed to be surrounded by people. I also needed to be pushed, and I wasn't being pushed. And when you own a company, you can push yourself. If you're like that, then that's super good. But I'm more of a person that needs someone or an environment that will push me. And then I'll probably... you know, be right up there and meet the standards, but it's very difficult for me to do it on my own. So I kind of realized that over the course of my short career, I considered myself still in the beginning of my career or mid-career, but it just felt inauthentic and it didn't jive. Like things weren't smooth. Like when you're an athlete and you're working really hard, but you know where you're going, it's easier to work hard. But when you don't know where you're going, it feels like you're just in French. There's an expression that says it's like you're peddling in butter. You're just peddling in butter. It's not going anywhere. It's super slippery. And it just feels like a lot of effort for not a lot of rewards. So it was a tough decision. You know, it's something that I, built with people that were close to me. And it was tough because we were one of the very few Canadian international CrossFit competition, CrossFit companies there, like four competitive CrossFit. Being a female owned company was, and one of the very few was like, it was a tough decision, but you don't do things for others, right? You do them at the end of the day, you do that for yourself. And it just didn't feel right.

SPEAKER_01: 10:39

That's so good and so important.

UNKNOWN: 10:42

And

SPEAKER_01: 10:43

It's such a like strange dichotomy that you often only recognize looking backwards after your lessons have been learned. But like I talked to so many people who want to coach, so they think they need to open a gym. Right. And it's like the same thing. Like, well, if you want to coach, don't open a gym because you're going to, instead of talking program design, you're going to be talking about business financials and you're going to be worried about, you know, leveling up and working your way out of a gym, out of the job, which is, I can actually speak to that where I was, I worked my way out of my, coaching job at my gym. And all of a sudden I looked backwards and I was like, wait a minute, all I ever wanted to do was coach. Like what kind of a mess have I created here? This wasn't what I wanted. But anyways, I think it's a super important recognition. Like what you set out to do is what you should more or less start doing and, and, uh, or keep doing. Sorry. Yeah. And yeah, again, I think that's good for you for, I think sometimes people just continue down the path and, uh, rot with, uh, disenchantment taught and what they're doing and they just don't ever, don't ever, uh, reconcile that. So.

SPEAKER_00: 11:45

Yeah. There's something about the idea of being an entrepreneur that I think is very sexy and attractive. It's like being a professional athlete. It's so cool. Like you get to do this, you get to do that. You're your own boss and your own this, but when you actually live the realities of what it is to be a professional athlete or, or an entrepreneur, it's kind of surprising. And, and, you know, it's, I could have done it, but I don't think I would have been as content, you know?

SPEAKER_01: 12:12

Yeah. Your intrapreneur acknowledgement is a word. That's a word that's not super commonly, we use it at Two Brain. Could you define that for everybody real quick? And then I, cause I would like to poke at that a little bit just to

SPEAKER_00: 12:27

hear what that is. So to me, an intrapreneur is someone that has a lot of leadership and that will really take projects and bring them to a specific end goal, but we'll do so in the context of some guidance and things like that. So entrepreneurs are rare because usually people with a lot of ambition and leadership, they're going to end up branching out and opening their own space. Like I had a gym, you could tell when someone in your gym was going to stay or not, just because if they're constantly like questioning what you're doing and things like that, they have in English, I guess, critical opinion, like they have critical thoughts and they have opinions about the way things are going. So these people can either be just because their ambition is going to outgrow the gym very quickly and they're going to move on. But entrepreneurs are those who want to set up themselves within a business and really become a key component to the business that they move in, that they are in. And yeah, I guess they're rare. And I don't know if a lot of people understand what it means, but there's not a lot of companies out there that will nurture entrepreneurship. And and stuff like that. So that's the way I've kind of defined it for myself. I don't know if it's the actual definition.

SPEAKER_01: 13:46

No, I think that was spot on what I would have said exactly. And I think it's everybody tends to win in that relationship. And again, there's people who definitely need to be entrepreneurs. And then there are people who definitely need to be employees. And that's where they're comfortable and they're going to be comfortable. But I think that like hybrid entrepreneur where you have a lot of autonomy is, And you have some dictation over your own success. And then you get to stand on the shoulders of the owner. I think it can be really magical when it works out and with the right people in the right spot. So I'm obviously a big believer in it. That's what we do at our gym, what we promote at T-Brain. But, yeah, glad you brought that up because– especially for the coaches listening, I think they often think, okay, I need to open a gym so I can coach all day long as a profession. It's like, wow, unfortunately, you're the guy that gets to clean the toilets

SPEAKER_00: 14:42

or the girl that gets to clean the toilets. I'm pretty sure you're going to be mopping the floor.

SPEAKER_01: 14:47

Learning how electrical or painting, like all the things that,

SPEAKER_00: 14:51

yeah. And there's something, like I remember when I owned my gym, like I really liked mopping the floor. There was something therapeutic about the moment where you would have enough calmness to kind of clean and do a task that was, where you were just thinking about, you know, mop, like you were just mopping the floor and I'm not, I'm not, uh, against those tasks, but, but sometimes the idea of, of a specific job and what you're actually doing, you're like, well, my God, I'm not expecting that, you know?

SPEAKER_01: 15:17

Yeah, exactly. You just work out all day, right? Yeah. Uh, let's talk about program design. That's, uh, it sounds like that's your passion. It sounds like, or I can tell it's your passion by, uh, following you on Instagram, reading what you're doing? Let's get into that side of things.

SPEAKER_00: 15:34

Yeah, I love programming. So I studied in design, right? One of the things that I loved when I started got into the coaching world, but more so in the DECACOMP, like the digital space and the program design space, is that to me, the CrossFit Games, which was my major motivator, was a puzzle I needed to solve. And I just absolutely loved the creativity that came from looking at the CrossFit Games, what the demands were. Having lived it as well gave me a little bit of an advantage because when you experience the CrossFit Games, you really understand what it is it feels like when you're on day three or day four you know so that was a huge just creative endeavor to create a program that would help athletes go towards that and finding ways and learning about the different programming styles and systems was a huge creative outlet for me and on top of that What I've consistently done, this was done kind of by, not mistake, but just I didn't do it on purpose until I realized it was beneficial. And now I've been doing it on purpose since then. But when we do a lot of sport and we do a lot of activities, we really understand different systems outside of the CrossFit space. So over the last, like, I've been programming for, oh my gosh, it's been like nine years. Yeah. It's been constantly evolving, not only the CrossFit games and the CrossFit competition and CrossFit as a whole, like the functional fitness space, but just me myself as well has been evolving because I've dived into since retiring from CrossFit competition. I think I've done like three sports post CrossFit and pre CrossFit I had done two or three sports. And so over the years, it's evolved so, so much. And this is what's so cool about our space. It's a lot like any creative field, really, that evolves constantly. Art evolves constantly. Digital creation evolves constantly. Fashion evolves constantly. People don't realize this, but training in in all sense of the word like both in the CrossFit space in the personalized space and in the athletic space in the fitness wellness space is evolving constantly and today the the average consumer of fitness is much more educated than they used to be right people come in now into gyms and they know what they want they've seen it on social media they want hybrid they want strength training they want Pilates they want this they know what they want so I find that to be such an amazingly creative field to be working as a programmer, especially when we cater to gyms that are– kind of do it all. So it's been really, really fun kind of going through this. And I've had a lot of influences in my career for programming. Conjugate system is a big one. And endurance training, most recently, like a polarized training method has been another big one, but it's been really fun. So let's dive in.

SPEAKER_01: 18:48

Yeah, no, that's awesome. I think it's kind of like, I may have made this reference on the podcast before, but like being a chef, like you may have your kind of restaurant, the kind of food that you're expecting, but you, you're only going to get improvement on that by getting exposure to other things and like visiting other countries or visiting other restaurants and kind of taking flavors from this thing and sprinkling it into the recipe. Uh, I think that, that evolution and, and, uh, perspective that can be brought from that is super important. And 15 years ago, you probably need to branch out a little bit and get out of the silo and experience some other stuff. So

SPEAKER_00: 19:24

a hundred percent.

UNKNOWN: 19:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:25

Yeah. Where do you want to go from here? We, you guys, you, you, you mentioned a bunch of sports like that, or you mentioned three posts CrossFit sports that you've participated in. What are those that have influenced your flavor?

SPEAKER_00: 19:34

Well, uh, I'm really into the endurance sports right now. So endurance sports have, have allowed me to stay fit, you know, weight management, stay active, go outside and still work more athletically. I'm not a person that's like super gym oriented. I like as funny as it may sounds, I much prefer training for sport than working out for body composition and strength training and stuff like that. So endurance sport have allowed me to really dive into sports styles training. And in terms of programming, it's helped me understand the importance of polarizing training. And this is a big thing that I'm trying to demonstrate with HWPO Affiliate. Like Most of our clients at HWPO Affiliate are going to be CrossFit or ex-CrossFit gyms, people who love intensity, people who love the mixed modalities, the higher skill stuff. But more and more, I think it's really important to have a programming that includes some of that, but also has other type of programming that's much less intense and a little bit more sustainable. And this leads me into a gym or a programming style that would naturally have a polarized training system and if people go to the gym because especially the crossfit affiliate like the the client that walks into a gym that really loves the variety and intensity and the fact that they walk into a 60-minute class they move very very very vigorously and they walk out and they're like i don't know what just happened but i feel great kind of thing these people are looking for distraction, like 60 minutes. And if you can have within your gym, that along with things that will sprinkle in like longevity style training, I think that would be that's a winning combination. I say that because I'm like that, like, I'm not a personal trainer, so to speak. I'm not one that that that is attracted to that. But I am attracted to group training. And I am attracted to group training that's intense a little bit and lower intensity a lot of the time. So yeah, like, The HLBPO affiliate has kind of developed a programming roster to help affiliates kind of give that to their members and so if I had it my way I would say this is how you're going to do it and like on you know this day this day this day it should be that and blah blah but I know that that's not how it works and I know that like people are going to do kind of what they want but we have six programs in hwpo affiliate and then our main programming is like a crossfit style program we do have a strength bias to it so we're not one to do just a random workout we'll have cycles we'll have specific goals I think that's a wonderful way to get athletes athletes understanding that their training is 12 months, not three months kind of thing. So when you explain to your members that there's a one year goal to this program and that every year it kind of builds up on that, I think there's a lot of value in that. And then we'll offer things like EMOM 40, which can be the zone two stuff. Like it could be lower intensity skill development. We offer that program twice a week. We have something called sweat that's like low impact hit style training that also has some accessory style work. And then we have focus. I'll get more on focus too, because focus is actually a program that was developed really to help gym owners create value in a different way. And I think that it fits the two brain model a little bit more than let's say a class program. And then we'll have like a high rocks program and we'll have other things. So, so those are all the goal of this affiliate programming is we give six programs and that gym owners can look at that, those six programs and say, well, I want three days a week to be the class programming, the days that are, you know, prioritize and I want the other two days to be lower intensity. So I'm going to put in a day for sweat and I'm going to put in a day of accessory and my client can come to the gyms five days a week because they're doing, you know, a little bit of everything like that. That's, that's kind of our vision or my vision for affiliate. But all in all the program, let's say we take the, the class program, the main seven day a week program, um, There is a lot of thoughtful process in having a little bit of fun because no one wants to go to the gym if it's not fun. They're going to find fun somewhere. Some people like doing boring stuff because they have a fun trainer to talk to you. And some people need to have fun and forget life for an hour. So there's a little bit of fun. There's balance. And there's also a lot of challenge. My goal with the programming is to always challenge the best athletes and make sure that they're being stimulated in one way or another. But yeah, and then Focus is a program that was designed for... selfishly for me because I'm a very technical coach. So I love teaching technique. One of the favorite things, it's very selfish because not everyone wants to sit and listen to me talk about ring muscle-ups and stuff like that. But the focus program is like eight weeks. I send eight weeks of programming that has a specific goal. So they're going to work on a modality. And I tell my affiliate members, the goal of this program is to provide you with extra value. So You can take eight people and run them through this specific focus for eight weeks. And this cohort is going to be able to develop connections with the coach, with themselves, and they're going to be working on developing whatever skill it is. It could be right now we're in a calisthenic focus, for example. So the goal is to get athletes stronger body weight wise. So great introduction to body weight strength training for new athletes. And so the program was selfishly for me to dive into technique and very specific training for specific modalities. It was a way for me to provide programming that could help gym owners generate more revenue through semi-private training or even private training if they'd like. And it was also the goal of having members being exposed kind of like athletes are with training blocks that work a specific skill or modality. And the athletes, I think, that are willing to do eight weeks of boring stuff. And I say boring only because it's very specific. There's a goal. It's not just fitness for fitness sake. But when they do that, they get out of that... so much more because when they get into class, all of a sudden there's less stress about not being able to do something. There's less involvement from the coach for scaling. They're a little bit more independent and educated on training. So all of these previous years of programming and being coached and things like that have given me the ability to write this roster of programs that, in my opinion, encompass a lot of what we encounter as functional fitness community-based gyms.

SPEAKER_01: 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:33

That was very long winded.

SPEAKER_01: 26:35

No, that was great. That was a super comprehensive. I think that the, yeah, that made perfect sense. And I think that was a great, great overview of it all. What's a, you touched on a couple of things, the polarization training or the, the, so you called it, sorry. I think so long on one side, short on the other. I mean, is that like short, long and slow, short and intense, more or less? Juxtapose alternating days kind of thing? Exactly. Tell me more about, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:06

Yeah, that's exactly right. So polarized training is basically 80-20. Okay. So in endurance sport, it's used a lot. They also use it in conjugate and strength training systems without calling it polarized, but they do volume training, speed training, and intensity training. Yeah. And so when it comes to training, class training, polarized training is very tough to manage. So it's very rare that they're going to have a full on polarized training system in a class plan. It can be done, but they would need to come to the gym at least five times a week or I would say maybe four times a week to get some benefit from it. And it needs to be consistent. So the polarized training system is something I'm going to use a lot with athletes that I still coach, Pat. So Patrick Vellner is an athlete that I still coach, and he has a polarized training system in his training plan and so the way we do it depending on the year is that he's going to have an accumulation over weeks rather than in a week in a week's training so if we want to simplify it down when you do let's say just in a week polarized training if i'm just running it'll be three days of if i'm training five days a week it'll be three days of lower intensity zone two style work then there's going to be one or two days of high intensity speed style work. That's what polarization is going to look like. So three sessions, zone two, it could be as simple as running 20 minutes of at zone two, three times. And then having one session of high intensity sprint intervals, and then having another session that's like tempo. It'll look like that. For Pat, what it looks like in the sport of fitness, I've done it a little bit differently every kind of year because I don't want him to just adapt to a system year in and year out. But at this very moment, we're doing two weeks of volume versus one week of intensity. So the volume will accumulate over the two weeks. We're talking about sessions of like four or five hours. And then the intensity session, we're talking about two hours and the loading and the intensity of the conditioning is going to be much higher. So when you like those three week segments, when you Compound them. You do two, three-week segments, a deload, and then two, three-week segments, a deload. That'll acclimatize him to the volume. And then the goal is just always to sharpen the ax with that week of intensity and leading him to competition. So polarized training system has made my... training programming for the sport much easier. It's great. Like I said, the conjugate system uses it in a slightly different way, but they have the same idea of it. And so for class, what I've done for in the polarized way, I wouldn't call it polarized so much in that way, but in our class program, for example, we'll use the same idea of having volume and intensity in a specific cycle. So right now we've been working on strengths like cycles over the past few months. The affiliates have been on a strength-based training since the end of the Open, a little bit after the end of the Open. And we've tried something different this year where we're doing shorter cycles, but only one movement at a time rather than one big strength cycle with like three movements. So our first bit was the back squat and we just use, I call it the VRI system. So volume recovery intensity. So one of their sessions is high volume. So 40 reps or more at a lower percentage. and not in a row. So they'll do like three times 10, four times 10, five times eight, things like that. And then the recovery, I call it a recovery, but it's like recovery or speed. They'll do really light loads, super high speed. So we're working on their rate of force development, their ability to apply force really quickly. And then the intensity session is the squat session that everyone thinks about in a strength session. So it's, you know, five times two at 85%. And then the following week, it's 88% and things like that. So in their week, they have three squat sessions that are very, very different.

SPEAKER_01: 31:25

Yeah, yeah. What's cool about this. Very conjugal, you said, yeah. What's

SPEAKER_00: 31:29

great about this system is that it's not like we're not overloading. It's progressive overload, but there's variety in it. So it hits that fun balance of it. Like people don't like doing volume squats and it's like kind of annoying, but then they get the speed squat and they're like, Oh shit, I've never done this before. Like, and it's, it's a new way to work. It's a, it's a fun way for members to work. Um, and I like to combine some squats with some plyometric work and some jumping work. So we do a lot of that and it's been really successful. So it's just, it's these systems that were initially developed and thought through for people like Pat, um, have now found their way into our affiliate programming in a very practical, fun and easy to apply way.

SPEAKER_01: 32:14

Yeah. The fun part, like you said, like staring on the barrel of eight weeks of, you know, eights and tens is like, that's for, especially for memory. Like I can't do that at the gym. People be like, what are you talking about? No, we're not. We're going to squat. We're going to back squat until August. Like doing sets like the, no, we're not doing that. Sorry. So yeah, I love your, I mean, that's a, for all the reasons I think the conjugate methods have been successful as far as stimulation and not, and then not getting overuse type injuries, but also for the fun. That's cool.

SPEAKER_00: 32:43

Yeah. Yeah. Like it's, I don't know. I would rather do a speed session with some high box jumps than a heavy back spot. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01: 32:51

Yeah, absolutely. All day long, all day long. So I want to poke at the, the zone to juxtapose with the intensity. I think so many of us like grew up on intensity in the CrossFit space and like kind of fell in love with it. And I think it can be really challenging to convince somebody that This is better. Like you said, the sharpening the axe. Your axe is going to be a heck of a lot bigger if you can build a bigger base. That's only going to be sharper. But to sell somebody on that idea, that can be a challenge. How does that look for you? Do you have to have them trust you? What's your perspective there?

SPEAKER_00: 33:31

Well, I think it is a very... difficult thing like one of the things the realities of me my role is that i'm a programmer that talks to coaches and so the education from my end is directed to coaches and so coaches have to read the documentation to be able to to talk about that to their members but one of the biggest keys in my opinion is as a coach when you're trying to Competitive athletes are going to buy into what you say. They go to you for coaching. They're going to buy in. They may ask some questions. I've had lots of athletes ask questions. Pat and I have had conversations about his training over the course of the years, and it's never been really a convincing conversation. But it's difficult to impose a training system to someone who's at the gym constantly for weight loss and mental health issues and that aren't super bought in yet or aren't super concerned about their athletic development. And I get it. I totally get it. And to be fair, Kenny, I'm one of those people now. I don't want to go to a gym and be told that I need to gain strength. I've been there and I've done that. So I would much rather have the coach tell me in knowing my reality, like, you know what, you could do what you want. I want to be part of the group. So I'm there. You could do what you want. But there is also understanding that I'm like an outlier. There's not a lot of people with the background of being a competitive CrossFit athlete for like 10 years and stuff like that. But if I were to talk to a member that's questioning or seems not super convinced about the training system and the depth of it and how to apply it. I think it's really important to give that member some control over what they're doing and then in the hopes that in the long run, if this athlete stays, that they would get curious about it, right? So it's like kind of you give to the member, you give to the member, give them control, give them understanding. And if they ever get interested in their training system and what they're doing and they start to ask you some more questions, I think that's where you kind of grab him and you'd say, well, man, let me tell you about this, you know, and then you get into these training systems. But we can't. It's like, this is something that kind of turned me off from CrossFit in the last few years is that we constantly shove people's, shove in their mouths. It's like, this is the system. This is how it works. This is the best results. This is this. Like, I get that. Like, okay, if people are really bought into it, they're going to see the results. And I get that. It works. I've seen it happen. It worked on me. But some people just aren't mentally ready for that kind of stuff. And I think that we have to let them come to us when that happens. And the goal of those athletes is just to make sure that they have fun and they find some form of satisfaction in what you're providing. So there's a lot of adapting to the member that has to happen from the coach. I've tried in the past to kind of talk about how to do something and why people should do these things. And when an athlete that I'm always going to remember, I was constantly telling them they should be doing this, they should be doing that. And it ended up being that that member wouldn't come to my classes anymore. And then eventually, after a few years, that athlete, that same athlete started asking me questions on what I was talking about previously. And it's not a I told you so. It's like, okay, now they're ready. So I always compare in the fitness space, because we have to understand that a lot of our members or or maybe less now than previously, but a lot of people go to the gym, just like not necessarily wanting to be there. They might, they might prefer having drinks with their friends than going to the gym. They're doing it because they need to, and they see it as a responsibility towards themselves and stuff like that. So I compare those people to smokers, like smokers will never stop smoking unless they're ready to stop smoking. And so when people are just a little bit more understanding of what, our world is and how deep it is and where they can go with it, like they can go for endurance, they can go for strength bias and stuff like that, then until they're all in, I think we just need to make sure that they're safe, that they're having fun, and we're finding a way to keep them engaged. But that being said, again, when I give my whiteboard talks, I have the bias of writing the programming. I start with why we're doing something. And if that doesn't peak curiosity, I don't know what would. Like if you talk about being in the strength program and progressing towards this and we're going to do it this because this is what we're able to do. Like when I talk about rate of force development and understanding that this will help people get stronger, it peaks people's curiosity. So coaches, when they're giving a workout and they're not sure exactly what the workout is about and what the context is, I think that's the first flag that that we have to, as a coach say, well, how am I gonna give a really good class and peak people's interest if I can't see the depth of what this workout is about. So that means that you need to read about the workout. You need to read the notes. You need to, you know, if you have a question, ask your boss, ask your this, like, you know, research. And then I think what you can explain the why, even though it's not super in depth, but if you start to understand why we're doing a session, I think there's a lot more depth to that session. There's a lot more passion and there's a lot more credibility. And just, you start to talk with much more force, you know,

SPEAKER_01: 39:04

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. I think some of the issues that I've found are like, the old school CrossFitters who like every, every day is a threshold day. It's like, okay, three, two, one go. And like, I watched, if I strap a heart rate, like I see it, like it's an immediate response. Like they just go straight to the moon because their body's adapted to doing that. And they're ready to get sugar in for fuel and they're going to go hard. And they, they're, they're going a positive splits all the way through there. You know, they're the intent of the workout has been completely lost on them. But the longer I've had those conversations about, look like, that's what the person that was has been paying attention to doing this appropriately is now passing you yeah because their pacing is appropriate because they're doing the thing because they're following the intent of the workout but it is a it's a it's a it's a long pill to swallow like they have to they have to learn it over a long period of time to understand this is the way

SPEAKER_00: 39:55

yeah and how did you learn it like like kenny how did you learn that moving slightly slower was the right way to go.

SPEAKER_01: 40:03

I'm lazy. I'm inherently lazy and like to sprint to the finish. I had good coaches. I was a product of James Fitzgerald, uh, and, uh, OPT and CCP and all that big reward. The pacer, like we were doing so much tracking of rounds and pacing and heart rate monitors. And we just got super nerdy on that stuff. So that's how I've, but also I am lazy. So there's, there's that too.

UNKNOWN: 40:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:30

I learned it through like it was natural like I think it's an as a higher level athlete in the CrossFit space it was a natural thing like pacing and things like that it was a little bit more of a self-preservation thing but I only kind of learned like running as an example, I only started to run slowly when I was doing endurance and I was like, well, I need structure. And then I started to learn about that. And, and then I started to apply it in the CrossFit space. I actually started giving Pat some, some not for time zone three. We can't really do zone two in CrossFit so much, but like zone three style Metcons, literally just Metcons of accumulating 150 plus reps of a Metcon at a slow pace to get the mechanics endurant and it had nothing to do with adaptation for conditioning or anything it had everything to do with just getting the knees okay with doing 150 plus squats getting the wrists okay with doing you know whatever i think one of the best ways to learn is through experience and like you're saying like people die hard crossfit they're in it for that You know, intensity rush, they may never learn, but maybe maybe one day they will when they're like, I can't, I can't keep doing this. And they're going to get out of the gym and going to go do something else. And it's going to be slower. And then maybe they'll get back into a CrossFit style gym and, and learn their lesson. But I think that we're seeing a lot of that because man, In Canada, anyway, in Montreal, CrossFit's been around since 2007 or so. 2006 is when our first CrossFit affiliate opened in Montreal. And so there's a lot of older generation, like fire breather CrossFitters that are still doing it, but they're doing it at a much different speed and it's not the same as it used to be. So I'm a big believer in like people learn those things for themselves. And I can tell them like, that's not the best way. Maybe you should try this and that, but there's a limit to that influence before you start to push people away is what I've learned.

SPEAKER_01: 42:33

Yeah. I, again, that's a, it's a fine line because it's the, they enjoy it for a reason. And if they keep coming back, like that's, I find, I still feel like that's the most important thing to a point, I guess. But you know, if they're, if they're coming to the gym, like that's a win. Yeah. Quick going to the gym, like we're, we're losing, but, uh, It's hard to be that. Now, I guess we're coming full circle to the old conversation about, you know, I learned my lesson. You should listen to me because I'm so mature at this. But I mean, I think that that has gotten more attention, more adherence. Like the zone two is a term that gets thrown around in all walks of life these days.

SPEAKER_00: 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:13

And I think there is a way, which I would actually, I'd like to ask you about too, is like how you can make that fun and get some of that like movement meditation, where you, the point of, if you're, if you need to do something to take your mind off the rest of your day, and that's why you're so satisfied with it by this type of fitness, that's achievable, but the volume and the, there's some other considerations that have to happen if you're going to go for, for a long period of time. Like, how do you program your long days to, without destroying people?

SPEAKER_00: 43:40

Well, my class workouts are pretty intense. Like I provide class workouts all week that are always with the high intensity in mind. My goal is to have the other programs be included in that so that people can have, like in a calendar, I would love that gyms include like the sweat or the accessory programs to do exactly what you're saying, to say to their members, come to CrossFit three times a once a week. That's how I would love it to be done. I can't, I can't impose that system on the affiliates that are signed up for our program. Yeah. But if, if I were running the gym, it would be as simple as telling my members that on the calendar, they're like, they should be, if they're doing just group classes, then they would be doing two to three CrossFit classes a week. And then they would be doing, I would promote one aerobic session a week and then one or two accessory sessions. So that would, would still be split into five days obviously the accessory session would be ideally on top of another session but i think that that's where i would lead towards for members and then even more so if it was a beginner it would be one crossfit class one sweat class two accessories kind of thing that's how i would um Recommend it. However, you know, I just came back from a summit called the Athlete Tech Innovation Summit. I think I was there two weeks ago. Do you know about that summit?

SPEAKER_01: 45:10

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00: 45:10

It's really interesting. It was a fitness and wellness summit that brought together some innovation in the fitness space. So we're talking about like machine stuff. Like there was a brain training event. Helmet that you put on and they would identify weakness in your mental focus in your, you know, all of these things. It was, it was wild. There was a lot of really innovative ideas and things. There was like a robotic machine for massage and things like that. But 1 of the things that really, really stood out is that. In the fitness industry, wellness is taking as big as a role as fitness. And gyms now, chain gyms everywhere, gyms are opening up wellness and recovery spaces. So I think that moving forward, a lot of gym owners should have that on their radar to have a space and maybe a calendar space set up that includes recovery sessions. And what does that look like? It could be a guided cold contrast therapy led session. There are obviously some limitations when it comes to having a spa, like a tub in a space. There's like some permit stuff that you have to take care of. But if you can run recovery specific sessions, I think that's where people's heads are at. Like even the hotel industry is getting into the fitness and wellness industry because people are so involved with their fitness and wellness routine that when they travel, they specifically look for hotels that provide them with those types of outlets. So I definitely think that If we're to evolve with the fitness industry at this moment, there needs to be space, physical space and calendar and group led or privately led space for recovery to help the intensity stuff stay sustainable and things like that. So it could be just having an accessory programmed class where all you do is muscular endurance and accessory work. That's low intensity. It's physically, it's like physical work, but it's just low intensity work. Or it could have a hybrid membership of, hey, you have access to our fitness space, our gym space and our wellness and recovery space. And that space can look like with foam rollers. You can you can invest in like Norma Tech stuff and things like that. So that's where I think looking mid long term is where we should be looking at as the fitness as a fitness company. And I mean, I can't program like classes of mobility. I think that stuff should be really coach specific led because there's a limitation to what programmers do. But I know GoWOD has, you know, a special membership with CrossFit and any CrossFit affiliate can have their members on a I think Go On could do that. So if you have those perks for members to do some recovery stuff that is led by that app, but that's definitely something that I think that we need to have our eyes on.

SPEAKER_01: 48:22

Yeah, I completely, like the more holistic, like all-encompassing approach to the individual, I completely agree with what you just said. And I think that we got on here by you saying, okay, well this person, you know, somebody should be doing three days a week of CrossFit and then an additional skill and an additional aerobic session, like to get so individualized with our clients, even if they're still in a group setting like that, that accomplishes them, them coming to the gym, which again, we've, I've, in my opinion, I think you agree with me. Like that's probably the most first and foremost, but then to help them supplement those other things with the recovery, with nutrition, with blood work, with, you know, all the things that are going to be on the forefront, like, I'm so excited by that and this conversation and, and people like you, because the role of the coach is no longer, you know, pointing at the whiteboard and starting to clock. Like, obviously from doing that, like for this long, like you probably, you're probably out of the industry, but like this evolution has continued to say, like, we can talk about so many different things to help you live longer and help you live better and help you express your, your, body's capabilities even more. Like, I think that coaches need to really embrace that and recognize that that's well within their, their scope and is what's going to serve their clients the best.

SPEAKER_00: 49:42

Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. it's a lot it's a lot of work like there's a lot going on right now it's really fun to specialize in one thing like it's very liberating like kind of what i've done i'm like nah i want to do programming and i want to do it for affiliates and like this but uh the the the wellness the fitness and wellness industry at this moment is booming it's like it's exploding and and the the it's exciting in that way because having have being part of an industry that's actually growing to the point where hotels are now there's now accreditation called WIT, Wellness and Travel and Tourism, that is going around in hotels to accredit specific hotels that have the appropriate recovery and fitness and wellness equipment so that they can call themselves a wellness hotel. We're seeing that. And we're in that world. We just have to make sure that we're following those trends and like, The consumer now is all about how can I optimize my wellness? It's not just fitness. It's not just performance. It's really like, how can I optimize my wellness and things like that? We have a limited amount of time to go to the gym. And so we have to, as business owners, we have to see how we can curate their experience. Like, hey, when you walk into my gym, it's not just fitness. you know, these classes and this and that, like here is the optimal schedule for someone who's looking to optimize their wellness. Here's the optimal schedule for someone who's looking to optimize their fitness. And here's the optimal schedule for someone who is looking to get back into shape. And so now you're not just selling programs, but you're selling protocols for people that they can evolve in within that. So it's really, really interesting. This, this holistic thing can help us also kind of choose a niche. Like, no, I don't want to do recovery stuff. Like my specialty is in that. So there's so much space to move around in the fitness industry right now. It's quite exciting.

SPEAKER_01: 51:45

Yeah, I totally agree. It can be overwhelming to you. And I think that it can feel threatening sometimes to a less mature or less experienced coach where like something new comes on the scene and like, Oh wow, I got to go do this. It's like, well, no, kind of back to the restaurant analogy. Like you should probably, experience the flavor and you may want to bring some of it back to your food, but maybe not like, that's okay. Like, I think it's good to stay, get outside your silo, but also recognize that like the main stuff you're still doing is totally relevant.

SPEAKER_00: 52:15

You

SPEAKER_01: 52:15

don't need to flip it all on its head and start all over. So.

SPEAKER_00: 52:18

No, no, exactly. And I think, I think as we evolve, because I mean, we've been in the functional fitness space for however amount of time it is. It's not, it's relatively new, right? Like I've been in this space for about 15 years now. Yeah, no, 14 years. Some of them, some people in the States who have been with around the CrossFit space has been 20 years. It's not that long. And so that industry, like the CrossFit or the community gym. It's also evolving along with the owner and the people who work in the space. And some gyms will, like you said, they'll choose to specialize in one thing, but it still needs to evolve because we do too, right? How many gyms, like when DECA, DECA is the gym that I used to own, DECA CrossFit. Like when that gym started and opened, it was such a bro gym. It was two guys, my boyfriend and his best friend. And they were so bro and they were so like this. And the gym looked like them. The gym looked like them. And then myself and my business partner at the time, Carrie Ann, we bought the gym and then the gym started to look like me and her. And it was like more female and a little bit softer. And I've since sold my shares to Carrie Ann and she owns the gym full time. And now the gym looks like her and it evolves like that. And her, and she's going all in with the full wellness. Like she's doing community-based wellness and it, and that has evolved with that. And that's great. But if like we, like, yes, it is, it can be Kenny, it can be overwhelming. Because there's so many choices to go, but you can use yourself as a guide of where you want your gym to go for the next five years. Like at this very moment, I'm not so interested in doing a lot of CrossFit classes, but I'm super interested. I would love gyms to offer accessory classes, like not just accessory programs. I would love the gym next to my house to give five times a week at 6am an accessory class so that I can just focus on being balanced and recovering from athletic atrophy. and things like that. And if that was the case at that gym, I'd be there every single class. Maybe if I were to open a gym tomorrow, that's what my class would look like. That's what my gym would look like. And, and so we can use our different, you know, phases in our lives to kind of help evolve the gym like that. And that's not very overwhelming because you're serving clients that like you're serving the member. Like if you were a client at your gym, you would be happy. That's I think a good motivation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 54:45

Yeah, I agree. It's again, it's so cool to like, we have our own little like labs or spheres of influence that like we can only touch so many people. So we don't, we just have to kind of resonate with those people that we want to resonate with. And that's awesome. Like you said, you don't have to do everything. Yeah. Yeah. Super cool. Well, I'd love to have you back on and we can keep riffing on, on other stuff, but thank you so much for doing this. And I love your perspective you bring into this, this community and thanks for that. So.

SPEAKER_00: 55:13

Thank you so much, Kenny. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01: 55:15

Where should people find you?

SPEAKER_00: 55:18

Oh, well, you can find me personally on Instagram at Mitch underscore Letendre. So M-I-C-H underscore L-E-T-E-N-D-R-E. But you can also find me at H-W-P-O training at H-W-P-O training on Instagram as well. And if you want to send me an email, you can send me an email directly, M- my last name at hwpo training.com.

SPEAKER_01: 55:45

Awesome. Cool. All right. That'll be it. Thank you so much. Thanks. Thanks to you as always. Thank you for joining us. And don't forget to join our group at strength coach, collective.com.