Strength Coach Collective

Mike Cerbus: Programming Olympic Lifting for General Population Clients

• twobrainbusiness@gmail.com • Season 1 • Episode 29

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Think teaching Olympic lifts requires 20 different cues? Think again.

Today on the “Strength Coach Collective” podcast, Chris Guerrero sits down with Mike Cerbus, a multi-time USA Weightlifting National Championship medalist and head weightlifting coach for Power Monkey Fitness.

With nearly 30 years under the bar and more than 15 years serving the fitness community, Mike shares his approach to technical excellence and long-term athletic development.

He breaks down his "feet, hands and eyes" framework for teaching any squat variation, explaining how three contact points create the foundation for everything from back squats to Olympic lifts.

Chris and Mike also discuss applying rate of perceived exertion (RPE) effectively, balancing technical excellence with engaging training and knowing when to refer out to other specialists.

Whether you're working with beginners or elite athletes, Mike’s approach can help you build movement awareness without overcomplicating coaching.

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Strength Coach Collective

2:14 - Simplification in coaching

15:26 - Common technical faults

23:16 - Olympic lifts with general population

34:26 - What separates good from great

44:59 - Tips to improve how clients move

UNKNOWN:

music

SPEAKER_00:

What's up, guys? This is Chris Guerrero, and welcome back to the Strength Coach Collective. You can find us at strengthcoachcollective.com or the Strength Coach Collective on Facebook. This show is for coaches who want to sharpen their craft and deliver better outcomes for their clients. Here we bring on leaders in the industry to break down methods, mindsets, principles that actually move the needle in your coaching and your athletes' results. Today, we're joined by Mike Servitz, a seasoned Olympic weightlifting specialist with nearly three decades under the bar and over 15 years serving the greater fitness community. Mike is a multi-time medalist at the USA Weightlifting National Championship. and was a member of both the 2012 Pan American and Olympic qualification teams. As the head weightlifting coach for Power Monkey Fitness, Mike has helped thousands of athletes and coaches worldwide improve movement quality, build strength, and train with greater purpose. His mission is to teach technical excellence and build long-term athletic durability through smart, progressive, and empathetic programming. We're excited to dig into his approach to coaching, developing athletes, and lessons from a lifetime in olympic weightlifting mike welcome to the show

SPEAKER_01:

wow thank you um that's a very humbling intro very

SPEAKER_00:

honored thank you you have an awesome background we were talking before the show give us a quick rundown where are you in the world right now

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah. So anybody that's listening that does know me, they probably remember there was a period of time where I was stranded on the island of Crete. And I put loose quotations in stranded because it was basically paradise for my life for about three years and turned into a home base. And about two years ago, I moved back to a little bit more nomadic lifestyle all over the place with some home base still in the US and then in Berlin with my wife. But we're here enjoying some visits with friends in between some Power Monkey events that also Awesome.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Well, I want to, I want to jump right in with you. So you've spent nearly 30 years with a barbell in your hands. What were some of the pivotal moments or lessons in your journey from, I guess, more like the athlete side to the coach side that have shaped how you now approach coaching weightlifting specifically?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. I could probably put it in one word, simplification. So as I've gotten, let's say, deeper into my educator journey, my coaching journey, I've realized that The most effective things that helped me when I was a competitor were always, no matter which coach or training partner I had, when they made things simple for me, when I made things simple for myself. And I don't mean simple and easy, but simple as you can do something and see a result, and then you can trust that result through the, yeah, let's say, feel and expectation. So simplification is probably going to be a theme that will come out from the conversation.

SPEAKER_00:

So in terms of simplification, because I love that, a lot of times in any kind of coaching, whether it be like physical fitness, business coaching, you hear so many different ideas and things that get convoluted, complicated. People get squirrel brain and they're thinking about a million different things. I was just talking with someone about playing golf and like how whenever I go to golfing lessons, I almost feel like I get worse because I'm thinking of 18 different things that I have to do. Specific with simplification, what is maybe in a practical term of teaching somebody how to snatch or clean or squat? Give me an example of what you mean by that. What might a complicated way look like and what might a simplified way look like?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, again, like if we just look at it from a weightlifting perspective, somebody that wants to get stronger, get faster, get more resilient, maybe go sports specific, whether it be weightlifting, CrossFit, anything, I try to simplify down to how do you squat? Can you squat? And let's maximize that movement. You know, a squat movement being something that I think is foundational for most humans, you know, barring any type of injury or, you know, um, issue with the body. So I start with squatting and then squatting lays a big foundation to go to all of the other pieces and, and, That might sound, let's say, too basic or too simple, but what's happened from my experience is even some of the best athletes, they miss out on getting the most out of how they squat in all forms and variations. And then if we can get that to be very, very basic, having an aware and incredibly functional squat pattern generally leads to simplifying the more complex movements, something like a snatch, something like a clean and jerk that just are a little bit like patting your head and rubbing your belly. at the same time. Like you have to figure out how to do that.

SPEAKER_00:

And what are some of the things specific? So like, let's use the squat as example. Our audience is coaches trying to improve their craft. What are some of the, I guess, technical cues or things that you look for in order to simplify that movement pattern? Like you've seen specifically, I mean, man, I think I worked with you probably 10 years 12 years ago at an athlete camp, people squat really differently. There's low bar, there's high bar, there's a ton of different variations. So what are some cues and examples you might use to simplify that process and get the most out of your athletes?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so I guess we would start one. You'd appreciate this one. It's like a J thing. Like, what's your why? Like, why are you even doing this movement? Like, what's your goal? I can be a little bit maybe in the best way possible manipulative in that because I think the answer will end up being the same for everybody, even if they say, you know, I want to win the CrossFit Games. I want to go to the U.S. Nationals, something like that. No matter what, when you're squatting, it comes down to feet, hands, and eyes. Like, we have to start there, and I think that's very, very important. helpful for a lot of coaches to simplify. So where are you putting your feet? That'll change maybe a little bit based off of an athlete, their goal, the style of squat they're doing. What are you doing with your feet and with your hands? For me, those are points of contact. One in the barbell, which is your apparatus, and the other in the floor, which is where you're anchoring. Then eyes, focal point. What you're looking at always gives you balance and stability. Those are three, let's say for me, non-negotiables that every coach needs to start with and then every athlete needs to own. Athlete ownership, if you're not giving me an appropriate answer and by appropriate answer, just digging a little deeper into like, why are your feet where they are? What are you feeling with your feet? Why are your hands where they are? What are you feeling with your hands? Why are your eyes where they are? What are you feeling with your eyes? Then it doesn't make any sense for us to go into more complex movements until those things have been established.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. And I love that, that framework of feet, hands and eyes, because it gives some simplified checkpoints where people can kind of like look and know based on the feet and the eyes are, are, I think they're pretty common. I don't, I don't know that many coaches really, uh, that I know in the industry for a while, talk about the hands a lot. So talk to me a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So there's, I mean, there's different ways to go with it, but for most people, Most all of us, we want to get the most out of something with the least change or having to think about too many different things. So if you think of a squat, let's say back squat, front squat, overhead squat. If I could perfect, quotation marks, perfect my squat with the same grip on all three of those, it's then easy to start making specific changes for sport. But if every time I grab the bar in a back squat, my hands are a little different, front squat, they're a little different, overhead squat, they're a little different. I'm like, there's a power leak at some point. So you'll definitely, you know this from being a coach for so long, you'll hear so many people talk about core engagement, glute engagement, brace yourself, all these things. these different things and i actually believe that those happen from two big points of contact your feet and your hands if you have a good grip on the floor with your feet and you have a good grip with your hands we can then get the middle to start to connect but i'm actually probably a little bit different than some coaches where they'll try to start more with the middle and core engagement and then go to the other pieces or never even focus on them And what I've seen, whether it's with, you know, really, really beginner level young athletes or, you know, somebody that's a little bit older that's never even moved in a sports specific arena or professional athletes. If we get those points of contact dialed in, the reaction is usually what we're trying to coach anyways, which is core strength, core stability, activation, glute activation, all of these like more common key phrases and cues.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that. So it's like, as a result of having the proper positioning and set up with your feet and your hands, you kind of get the desired outcome that you want. And that's more your approach versus, Hey, let's try to teach this bracing. And I agree. I mean, like I said, I, Don't very often, maybe outside of the overhead squat and the front squat. I rarely hear people talk about hand positioning with, with back squats, unless you have one of those guys that has to our way out here. Um, last

SPEAKER_01:

question. Go ahead. I was just going to say that, you know, there's like the, the simplest way for me is just, it's a point of contact and it's very important that that can transfer to a lot of different areas. So like for me, the back squat grip should be really similar to your push-up and your pull-up, which should be really similar to your front squat and your press. And then if those are all about the same, your brain starts to lose some of the confusion of how to apply pressure and force. And that's just something that I enjoy seeing in action with people. But then also with the grip positioning, it's just too many people allow for relaxation in the wrong areas and they try to get tense in all the wrong areas. So like firm feet, firm grip. And then at some point when you're lifting big weights, you have to have this relaxed intensity all the time to be able to react and move and adapt.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. It's funny you say that because it's very much like I train Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai, and you have to be relaxed. And at the point of impact when you're doing things or going for a movement, that's when you kind of explode. So interesting point. Now, with super beginner-like people that you might work with, What is your take on using implements like kettlebells, sandbags, or dumbbells for teaching squat patterns versus a barbell? Or do you use them? Do you see utility in them? Or do you think that you could basically just teach anyone to squat with a barbell?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't want to be so egoistic to say that I think I can teach anyone to squat with a barbell. I think that... When you can get somebody to understand how to load behind the neck and stack on your spine, and then allow for a full range of motion where you maintain that balance and that center of mass, I think that transfers to most everything versus counterbalancing with a goblet or maybe doing a sandbag where something's in front and you're generally having to make some type of compensation to find your balance versus when I take a back squat, I'll do anything that I can to try to get somebody to then find their full range of motion, which for me is thoracic extension that'll keep the barbell over their midline when everything else is staying stacked. And then from there, exploring and finding how much hip flexion can I get, how much knee flexion can I get, and how much ankle flexion, dorsiflexion can I get in the bottom. So with beginners, my goal isn't anything with weight. It's we need to find what's your maximum mobility and where are you lacking? Are you lacking in strength or are you lacking in flexibility? From there, we can start to do all the crazy stuff, let's say. Of course, I have a bias because my background is as a weightlifter, but I saw so many people that struggled in flexibility or strength develop very quick by learning how to back squat better. I've seen so many people try to do all of the more unique things, whether they be trying every type of activation and every mobility drill and everything but the movement. It It seems like oftentimes the movement can be the medicine. It's no different than somebody that hurts their back all the time, so then they just start to avoid hinging. It's like, well, no, you probably shouldn't avoid hinging. You need to figure out where your weak point is and spend smarter time in that position.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's such an important point for people to hear. Cause like avoidance, like a lot of times, like I can almost like when I have a client who was like, Oh, I hurt my knee. And I'm like, let me guess. You went to the doctor. They told you to stop doing what you're doing for two to four weeks. They gave you an anti-inflammatory. You're going to feel better. We haven't addressed why that happened. You're going to come back. You're going to feel good for two to three weeks. You're going to hurt yourself again.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, it's an important point also for, I think, coaches that are listening to realize and feel confident in understanding what you just said. Now, obviously, if someone hurt their back, I'm not going to be like, hey, let's load up and do a one rep max deadlift today. You know, we might just grease the groove with the barbell reinforcing the pattern and how you move and some of the stuff you said, like what's your hand positioning, your grip, your foot positioning. That's going to activate midline. But far too often, I see people just, hey, let's just avoid this altogether, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. For me, it's a tragedy because if we want to have, let's say, a functional, able body with really healthy joints and tendons and ligaments, we want to try to take them through their fullest expressions of ranges of motion. And then from there, intensity is the part that you can layer on based off of what your goals and your, let's say, amount of time and energy you want to put into the training. But I don't avoid movement and at the same time I wouldn't say that I would never do a different variation of squatting with somebody but my goal is to get them to express a very good back squat because for me then that can turn into expressing a very good overhead and front squat and then that covers like kind of the gauntlet of what your body needs to do outside of rotation so when you're thinking of you know strength stability adaptability if you can do a back squat a front squat and overhead squat with a barbell you're generally able to do a lot of different things Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

I would agree with that. So you emphasize a lot of technical, like we've been talking about, technical excellence and progressive programming. What common technical faults do you see across both athletes and coaches? Because in Power Monkey, I'm assuming you work with both. How do you go about addressing them? while still keeping your training engaging and not just focusing on like the technical side of

SPEAKER_01:

things? Yeah, I mean, that's always, let's say, a challenging balance. And sometimes it's very much, it's like, bedside manner, knowing your audience, who are you working with. Some people you do have to let them push a little bit and test the boundaries of technical proficiency so that they stay engaged and then you can bring them back to the more important things. But I would say for coaches and athletes alike, they are happy when they feel more aware about what they're doing. So teaching awareness within positions and then within skills, that is incredibly technical and it can seem boring until you start to do it. And then it's addicting because it's, you know, why did you make that fault? For example, let's say use a power clean. I jump forward all the time, my power clean. Okay, so as a coach or as an athlete, what's the first thing that we should focus on? For me, it's foot pressure. So I'm going to start with foot pressure. From there, then I'm going to go into, let's say, positions. Like what positions are you in? From there, then maybe I'm going to go into where do you have strength and mobility imbalances. So there's a scaffolding or a triage of like what you're looking for. And it's fun to turn that into a sort of a game for people that are learning. They like to be able to self-diagnose. You know, we all like to be able to self-diagnose. So it's cool to ask a question. And then it's like being a school teacher. If they're not quite getting the answer. You're not just giving it to them. You're like leading it to them. You know, I jumped forward. Where'd you feel the weight in your foot? It was in my heels. And what happened? I jumped forward. Do you think it should be in your heels then? Maybe not. And then you start to like, you build things together that are going to allow for better outcomes in the movement.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you find, and this might be an interesting question, because I know you work with both. Do you find coaches or athletes more coachable?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I can't generalize. I would say– yeah, let's say oftentimes athletes– It depends on the level, I guess. Some athletes come because they want a quick fix because they have a goal, like an immediate goal. I need to lift this much weight to qualify for this competition. So give me a quick fix. It's possible that might happen, but it's not, at least from the coaching side, it's not very gratifying for me. But I understand it. So there's a reason for that. Coaches can be great because they want more tools in their toolbox and they want to be able to help people. But oftentimes, I think we as coaches also want to try to show how much we know. And then we're not always listening. We're waiting to be able to reply with what we want to reply with. And that's a challenging thing to overcome personally. I'm not by any means great at it yet, but I've realized that I, I oftentimes have to check myself with some of my other coaches or people that I respect that I'm wanting to have the right response to show that I know or understand versus just, you know, listen, absorb, try, figure it out and accept like new, new input.

SPEAKER_00:

That, that is just so fascinating. so important to, for people to hear. And I kind of want to reiterate that, like going through, so I work, so I own gyms, I train people, but I also work as a mentor for, and one of the things they teach us during mentorship is like, it's, you should be listening 70 to 80% of the time, interjecting 20 to 30% of the time. And when I first started, it was the opposite. I just want to jump in and give them the answer or, or, flex my knowledge on someone and it's so important because a lot of times and and i mean you you could speak on this a bit the the most effective coaching we can give people is going to happen when we really listen and hear what it is that they want versus what we think they need or want to give them

SPEAKER_01:

yeah yeah it's it's one of the more interesting uh maybe like psychological experiments for all of us that want to be coaches, mentors, teachers, but then also receivers of knowledge. It takes an open posture, I guess. It's one of those things you have to really be willing to sit back and listen and receive. I think that's always an important topic to cover, especially podcasts like this where we're wanting to have these types of discussions with coaches. Example being, oftentimes, social media is great and horrible at the same time. So many times with PowerMonkey or myself, we'll make, let's say, an educational suggestion for the community. This is a very good way to do something. Oftentimes, the most aggressive arguments come from coaches who that haven't even experienced the full topic. So they just want to be able to say something to validate their feeling, which I totally get. But at the same time, what good is coming from that? So I'm thinking about what you said on the listening 70% of the time. Even if I don't agree with something, it's better for me to listen to it and chew on it for a while before I come up with a really strong opinion coming back with it.

SPEAKER_00:

So honestly, man, I think social media in some cases has made me better at this because there's so many times where I pass by things that I want to say something or I'll open up the comments and see someone saying something. I'm like, why would this person even waste their time doing that? And I think the patience it teaches you in just sometimes things are better left unsaid and you don't have to share every opinion on every single topic. Yeah. And there is a lot of in this industry now, which it's really similar kind of to how CrossFit was when it first started. Like I got involved back in 2008 and on both sides, not just CrossFit people to others, but others to CrossFit where it's like, my method is better than yours or your method sucks or mine is better than you. It's just, you know, the idea behind it is that in terms of just being able to listen and kind of understand, like, like we said, like understand other people's perspective. I think that learning mindset, like, Hey, I'm always open to receiving, learning something from someone who may not have as much experience as me that who cares? Like I can still learn. And if you have that like beginner's mindset to everything, I think that's a big thing for coaches to be able to just have takeaways and, and, you know, don't walk into a room thinking, you know, everything.

SPEAKER_01:

Totally. I was just having a conversation with a few people the other day, and the comment they used for life in general was have strong beliefs and strong ideas, but actually hold them loosely because you want to be willing to change if you get better information or better resources. So instead of having that like, you know... strongly held, strong opinion. Like you can have your strong opinion, but don't hold it too tight. Like be willing to be flexible and listen a little bit. I think, no, I think that's important.

SPEAKER_00:

Nice. Awesome. I think that's a major point as well. So I mean, this is probably one of my favorite questions I'm going to ask, but weightlifting can be tough on the body. What are the key considerations coaches should keep in mind when programming Olympic lifts for general population or like CrossFit clients who wanna lift for the long term?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I would tell everybody, I tell this oftentimes in our workshops and our courses, most people are stronger than they need to be to lift what they want to lift. So it's generally practice and comfort that limits people. So trying to get a lot stronger and lift a lot heavier is usually not the need. It's generally comfort and willingness to practice. So I'll generally say don't test what you haven't been training. So if somebody wants to snatch a lot of weight or clean and jerk a lot of weight or do a one rep max back squat or deadlift or anything, I would hope that they've been inside of an eight to 12 week training cycle that at least has some emphasis on that. Like, and when I say some for a normal everyday gym goer, if you go to the gym four or five times a week and you have something you really want to improve on, you better touch it twice a week, ideally three times a week. So yeah, Weightlifting shouldn't be beating up people that aren't lifting two times their body weight, things like this. It's generally the execution side and then sometimes, let's say doses, if you only do something once a week and then you do it in a 20, 30-minute EMOM or you just accumulate all of your volume in that one setting, then probably joints, tendons, ligaments haven't developed the resiliency to actually support the muscles that are much stronger than they need to be. And that's what I tend to see more often is people just need longer stretches of dosing out the volume that they need to accumulate to get better.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, I mean, and wouldn't you say that the same is true, like even if it was just calisthenic movements and we were doing calisthenics?

SPEAKER_01:

Anything.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, anything. Super high volume and only doing it once a week.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Is there a specific, because it was like back in 2012, 2013, we were like maxing our power clean and jerk every other week or maxing snatching. I remember going to sessions like that with some of my guys that I used to train with for regionals. Like, hey, how heavy can we snatch today? Now, granted, we did have that involved in the programming and there was a lot of skill work and stuff like that. But speak to me a little bit about just balancing like maybe some central nervous system strain for the average gym goer who's coming into our gym three times a week, has average mobility. What kind of key considerations do you think about with programming? And we're gonna take one a little step further with the average client who is excited to try and see how heavy they can lift versus how much better their bar path is on a snatch, for example.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, man, it's that those are so it's always so difficult to make something very objective when everybody reacts so different. And sometimes it's a, you know, it really is, it's like a, for a coach, it's an eyeball test. I mean, if somebody is moving well and looks good, I would never hold them back from going heavy. So like, you know, thinking of working in RPEs. So like if, if you, if something felt like you could do that for two or three more sets with really, really good execution, then I think it's a great weight and we can probably go a little bit heavier. If you're squatting and you and felt like you could have got another one or two reps out of it, then it probably wasn't too heavy for the day and we can go up. But at the same time, even really, really high-level athletes, you can't stack too many sessions together that start to push into that, let's say, like, RPE 9 range. So if you're always hovering around, like, oh, I could have definitely done multiple more reps and sets of that and still been fine, you're probably not going to make much progress because you're not pushing hard enough. But, you know, at the same time, if you're always pushing to max intensity, best-case scenario, you're just going to be run down a little bit. Worst-case scenario, you are going to get that injury. You're So I think that's probably the maybe the dilemma that all of us in the functional fitness world are kind of coming into now is we have a community that's actually been around for a long time. And we're trying to figure out how to best serve them because you think of the amount of, let's say, Masters athletes now that are 40, 50, 60 years old that have been doing stuff like snatches, overhead squats, power cleans now for 10 plus years, some of them. And there's professional weightlifters that don't do it for much more than that. And then they just move on and do something different. So that's where I think getting– not necessarily creative, but getting open-minded to balancing things out. So finding different ways to counteract the imbalances that you would get from certain movements. So really getting into different stuff with carries, with rotations, with swimming, just different expressions of movement that actually take you off and away from the barbell sometimes. So there's definitely... a cohort of let's say retired competitive masters athletes that have had injuries that i've accumulated into my roster of people that i coach and advise and it can be comical sometimes how how little weight lifting we end up doing for many weeks at a time to make sure that the body's feeling really really balanced before we would maybe have a fun cycle where we get back into something that that is um yeah a little bit more sexy like a snatcher clean and jerk

SPEAKER_00:

Can you talk a little bit more in depth about RPE? Because I think that's so important, especially for the common gym goer. Obviously, percentages are great when you're working with athletes that understand and know percentages. But one of the reasons I, even with athletes, gone away from percentages is because we all know there are days when 60% feels like 85, 90%. RPE in the way that I explain it, you know, well, I don't want to explain. I want you to explain it to me. How would you give RP for the average person?

SPEAKER_01:

So this has always been, even in the weightlifting community, it was like a tragic miscommunication. Everybody wanted to lift like the Bulgarian weightlifters at one point in time. That was the cool thing. Everybody, oh, Bulgarian weightlifters max out every day. So then people just started to go heavy every day. But there's something to be understood about relative maxes. and then basing your effort off of that so you know today i'm lifting and i'm let's just say i'm i'm dead lifting 200 pounds and it feels like 300 pounds okay then you're not going to be basing things off of your true 100 you're gonna have a relative max today and it's Again, the easiest way that I've tried to explain and teach RPE to other coaches, to myself, to my athletes is just we have a range. And I always want you to be able to do another really good set or another really good rep depending on the exercise if we're in that RPE 8-9 range. And that's actually considered high intensity to me. So like, that's a heavy, hard set. If you failed, like we're off the RPE scale and that was a testing day. And unless it said test, like find your max and fail, then that was like, that was ineffective. You know, RPE sixes and sevens, those are like feel good sets. Those are technique sets. Like those are where you should feel like you can kind of do that with adequate rest for a whole training session and not be beat up the next day. And of course, you know, there's all the different RPE charts that try to explain But it's very dependent on the exercise you're doing. So like an RPE scale on a squat and a deadlift and a bench is quite different than a more fast twitch movement like a snatch or a box jump or something like that.

SPEAKER_00:

And if you're not relying on– because I guess the issue that I find working with people is either A, you explain the scale to somebody. who is more beginner novice level. And since they don't have a frame of context, they might lift the weight doing like a goblet squat, for example. Like, oh, that feels like a nine out of 10. And I'm looking like, it looked like a three out of 10. How do you, if you have a beginner athlete and more of an intermediate to moderate level coach, is it just timing the game and understanding like, like you just said, certain nuances or watching more movement to be able to better extrapolate and explain to clients like what their actual RPE was.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think so. I think it's time. It's comfort. I think it's not being afraid to have repetition. So to repeat movements and patterns and exercises from week to week to week so that people can get familiar. So the more beginner, if it's week one of them working with me on a program or in a gym setting, it's going to be movement quality week one. to then say week two we're going to revisit those movements and now we're going to push up a little bit of like how hard is this for you to do it it might be week three four five before they really have an understanding of what that high rpe is but our goal is for them to do this for a really long time so like we don't need to have an instant like number or percent or rpe even in the first training block maybe it might all be investigative it's like it's all it's all trying to just put good accumulation into their like awareness bank of movement so that they can be more coachable. I think on a coaching side, it takes a lot of confidence in your method to be okay with that because you might feel like they're going to get bored too soon or they're going to want to see results faster from something. It's definitely being confident in your process and the longer you do it, the more evidence that you have to show that your process is working. That's also why it's very important to find good mentors that you can piggy back off of their successes until you have enough of your own you know that you can that's what's great about two brain like it's proven so when you come in as a new mentor like you're able to use a lot of what's already there to validate what you're doing until you have your personal experiences to be like okay i don't have to like look this or talk to the other guy quite so often because i have i have this avatar this has happened before and i know like i just naturally instinctively that that was going back to rpe that was an rpe eight for that person because I've seen 500 other people move like that in that movement look like that and here's what they got three months later

SPEAKER_00:

yeah no I mean it makes it makes a lot of sense and I mean it's a great segue into this next one where You've taught thousands of coaches around the world. In your view, what do you think, and you could simplify it into one or two things, because that's the word you said in the beginning. What separates a good coach from a great coach?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I guess I would have to rely on coaches that I've had that I would... say are great coaches and then without naming names think of some of the coaches that i think are still really good but maybe a tier under so i would say not not use like yeah it's not a big word but empathic regard so just like feeling the people that you're working with so there's just a there's just a um a compassion and a care factor that i think is essential and i think that that To an extent, you can learn that, but I think you have to sort of have that. It might be a spark that's inside that can be lit, but genuine caring and compassion for the outcome of the person that's on the other side of you, irregardless of what happens for you as the deliverer. I had certain coaches that... they would send me to another coach to level up because they didn't feel that what they were giving was right for that moment. That was them caring more about me as the athlete and my results than them for their ego, for their credentials, for them to be able to say they did X, Y, Z. That was always something that stuck with me as I valued that and respected that a lot. Then I realized that those coaches were the coaches that athletes always wanted to go work with because they They knew that when it was working, it would work. And when it wasn't, they would help them find what would. So just that ability to have empathy and feel and not let your ego or your desire for yourself to be successful to trump the success of what the person in front of you wants.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, man, that's so important. Because I think all coaches, to a degree, to a degree, I'll say, do have... and empathetic regard for their clients, but some of it could be misguided in the selfish pursuit of elevating themself. Like look how good my coaching is that I got this person to that point. And I think what, if I heard you correctly, what you said is what separates the good from the great coaches because it's natural with human ego to feel that way, is that like, hey, when I'm no longer able to serve my athlete on the level that they needed, I'm not gonna keep my ego in the way of holding onto this person. And I'm actually gonna suggest something else that is not for my benefit, but it's actually for their benefit. So I agree that that's not, That's not really something that can be taught.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think so. But I think it's something, let's say, I would say all of us that are in this industry probably have it to an extent, and it can be practiced in different layers. So it might even be something as simple as Don't be so stubborn to think that the current training protocol that you're on is the best one. Be open to make a change that even though you've used this one a million times and it always works, but it's not working for this person. Be flexible, I guess, is the thing. Don't be so dogmatic in all areas. I think if you remove dogma from process, you can build a lot better progress for a lot more people.

SPEAKER_00:

yeah i mean that that's so so basically if we had to simplify this the empathetic like empathetic like being empathetic and understanding someone's needs and they should for for great coaches supersede your own need or desire to be labeled as a great coach have that regard for your athlete and then secondly i would say like be willing to change the playbook just because something that you've used a thousand times that's worked for a thousand people Don't get frustrated thinking you have to fit this square peg into a round hole with this one athlete that it's not working for. The great coaches find a way to kind of work with that person and get where they need to be.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I know. And like I said at the beginning, I want to simplify things and then sometimes maybe I overcomplicate them because they can seem a little bit like a paradox. It's like you need to be really confident in your method and what you do, but at the same time be really open-minded to realize it's definitely not most of the times the best way. So it's like there's like a feeling and a vibe and understanding of yourself and your community that I think just takes practice, time, patience, willingness to collaborate. The biggest– I think blessing that I have as a coach is being within the network of coaches that we have at PowerMonkey that always challenge me. So we're all very interdisciplinary. There's other weightlifters that definitely know a lot more than me in certain areas, and there's certain areas that I maybe have some elevation to them, but then we get into all the other running and rowing and swimming and kettlebell and gymnastics and things where I get completely humbled where I think I know something and I know nothing. So this back and forth, I think, allows for you to just– and forth up the ladder. So you're always able to kind of climb and elevate your ability to serve your community and your clients.

SPEAKER_00:

How has your mindset overall shifted from being a competitor to being a coach? And what mindset practices do you encourage your athletes to adopt for both training and just life in general?

SPEAKER_01:

I always tell everybody, from competitor to coach, teacher, retired athlete, whatever I want to identify as now, as an athlete, incredibly selfish, very irrational, always thinking everything should be more quicker. sooner, better versus the moment that I retired from competing. And that was mostly because I fell in love so much with teaching was it brought out a layer of patience and enjoying the process. Like all of the things that if you do that as an athlete, you end up with a much more enjoyable career. And so yeah, Yeah, simplified a lot kinder and a lot more patient as a coach than I was as an athlete towards myself and probably even towards others. So maybe the advice that I try to offer to the people that I work with is, yeah, be kind to yourself in the sense of set high expectations and goals, but don't let those be the model or the marker of what you're doing. So, you know, finding the small wins, finding things to sell, And then also, don't be frustrated if you don't get the goal you want, when everything prior to didn't happen the way that it needed to for that goal. So like be realistic. And that's a difficult thing to be when you're when you're training and when you're very focused on something. You can forget all of the peripheral things that also have an effect that are out of your control.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think it's really important because it's always like we are our own harshest critic. So like when you have critics or people saying things about you, it's like this is like nothing compared to what I've said to myself. And I think it's I think it's really important for for coaches to understand that that mindset shift, especially understanding that as a high level athlete, like the kind of things the way that you used to talk to yourself, like having positive self self talk and and and understanding certain components. of being able to celebrate little wins. Like one of the things we do on all of our mentorship calls and in our, in our communities is like, we celebrate all wins, all of them. And we have to teach people to celebrate wins because I don't, I mean, I don't know how common this is. I think it is pretty common, but even somebody like me, who's like had this education, like when somebody gives me a compliment, I like have a hard time just saying, thank you. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yeah. I'll

SPEAKER_00:

almost find an excuse or a reason why that's not true and almost unvalidating what the person just said to me versus just saying thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It's a whole... psychosocial investigation for all of these things. But I think the most simple thing I say is, especially for all of us, unless your sport is your livelihood and your family's livelihood, don't take it so serious. It should be adding value to your life. So that's one thing I try to say all the time. Even somebody comes to a weekend workshop with us, I'm like, rule number one here is you should want to be here and this should be fun. If you don't want to be here and you're not having fun, then I would like to give you your money back and you should go somewhere else. Because none of us, unless somebody raises their hand, is doing this to provide for their family and their livelihood. So this should add value to that. Right. And if it doesn't, it's the wrong thing. And we should have a deeper talk at the lunch break and figure out what's going on. Because I should go to the gym excited or go to my coach or my trainer excited, and I should leave happier than when I came in. Doesn't mean that I'm not challenged or anything like that, but that should not be an added stress. For most people that are in this community, we're already privileged enough to feel these dumb stressors that we feel all through life. So the added layer of balance we should have is we get to choose to do this thing that we enjoy, that we should like and embrace it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was just thinking about while you were talking the movie Van Wilder, where he imparts knowledge, don't take life so seriously because you won't get out alive. And it's just, it's funny, but it's true. You know, it's like, especially what you said about the athlete camp, unless this is like providing your livelihood. And even if it is like you want to make it enjoyable, that's a really, really super important takeaway for people to hear. Yeah. and this is like a complete shift in what we've been talking about, but like if a strength coach, somebody who's listening here, wanted to immediately improve how they teach your program, and you could choose either movement, the snatch or the clean, on Monday, what are one or two actionable tips you would give them to start improving the way that their clients move?

SPEAKER_01:

Make sure that their clients already know the difference between a squat pattern and a hinge pattern. and make sure that they've done something movement-wise or they will do something movement-wise that allows for an understanding of where the balance is in your foot when you're preparing to jump. If you can have balance in your feet in a jump preparation position and then you understand how to manipulate from a squat dominant or a hinge dominant, movement pattern, you can snatch and you can clean and jerk. So a lot of times those understandings of movements get tossed out. So I would only encourage strength coaches to snatch and clean and jerk. If they have athletes that are showing proficiency in it and they feel like it's going to elevate their performance, most of the time what I've seen is they can still improve on their general hinging, their general squatting, and the explosiveness will be transferred from that much more effectively than doing really, really ugly power cleans or power snatches or things like that.

SPEAKER_00:

If you were starting with a beginner

SPEAKER_01:

athlete

SPEAKER_00:

and you were trying to explain the difference between a squat and a hinge pattern, how would you describe it?

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, I guess it's layered, you know, if they're a general athlete, they probably know what a good morning is. So for me, I would explain a hinge pattern as a good morning, or Romanian deadlift. And then a squat pattern is anything that is combining and continuing the flexion of your knees, your ankles and your hips together. So it can be a little bit different than probably what people imagine. But just imagine any power position in sport. If you're a linebacker playing football, if you're guarding somebody in basketball, if you're set up at shortstop waiting for the pitch to be delivered, you're generally in some form of power position that you can change direction. You could jump. You could dive. It's more squat dominant than hinge dominant. So for me, squat dominant is ability to change direction. Hinge dominant is transferring power from one squat to another squat. Somebody wants to see it more in action, we have to spend some time together because it's a little, I think, complex to imagine visually, but it all comes down to having access to the ranges of motion you need in your hips, your knees, and your ankles to express those full positions.

SPEAKER_00:

yeah i mean when i've tried to like really oversimplify it for someone and i'm talking about novice level person i would say something along the lines of like hey for a hinge pattern your your your hips are moving basically like front to back, there's not going to be any downward motion. And then for a squat, it's going to be moving up and down and then I'll show them the difference of the two. And then, you know, there's some movements where there might be like a combination of the two, but I guess it also like depends on that question also depends on the level of the person that you're working with.

SPEAKER_01:

It's always, cause that's what I've tried to say, like have all the tools and all the explanations in your tool bag to, you know, know your audience and who you're speaking to. So, of course, a room full of athletes, I'm going to say, like, you know, do a Romanian deadlift, do a good morning. If I have, you know, my grandma or my grandpa coming in that never did anything, I'm going to say sit down or lean over. Like, you know, like, how do you pick up the laundry basket? Great. That's a hinge. Like, how do you sit down on the chair, go to the toilet? That's a squat. Like, let's, you know, let's start from there and see if we can increase those ranges of motion and get them stronger. Now we've become, you know, able to survive longer and be more resilient. And then for athletes... We just do it under more and more load with more and more intensity with rational programming. And then we push the limits of what we're able to do as humans.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Two random questions for you to wrap it up. What's your favorite meal?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, God. All right. So we'll go... Let's say almost any type of meat. They're called gigante beans. They're really big white beans that the Greeks really like to serve with lots of things in a tomato sauce. They're so good. They're really high protein. You mix those with any barbecued meat, golden. I'll do a 1B. The other is ground beef and hummus. So yes, I live part-time in Berlin now and there's a really, really big like Persian, Turkish, Arab community and they make the best hummus bowls with meat and pomegranate and olive oil and pita and I can eat that on tap all day long.

SPEAKER_00:

Man, you're making me hungry. Okay, so we had the meal. What is your current training split?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, this is the weird one. Basically, my week revolves around upper body push, which is a handstand, and lower body push, which is a squat. And then I fill in the dots from there. So I've really enjoyed the freedom of not having a huge performance goal other than feeling like I can do anything I want whenever I want. And if I start to feel a little bit of an imbalance somewhere, then I pick up from there. But I generally prioritize three times a week of squatting, two days a week back squat, one day a week front squat. And any variation that feels good for me, I'm always probably at an RPE eight in my life And then I'm still trying to follow my big brother and my mentor, Dave Durante. He's got the 11-minute-plus handstand. And I'm on the quest of the two-minute handstand. And I'm at least about a minute and a half now on my handstand. But that takes a lot of practice. So I've had to budget a lot of time for that.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Well, man, we've done close to an hour of Where can people find you? Where can we follow you? Where can we learn more about what you do with athletes, Power Monkey Fitness?

SPEAKER_01:

That's the best starting point. All things Power Monkey Fitness. So if you type that in anywhere you want to go to, if you type Power Monkey Fitness on Instagram, it'll bring you to the Instagram channel. You'll see me there with the rest of our team. If you put PowerMonkeyFitness.com, you'll go to our website. You'll see our events calendar. You can come hang out with me pretty much anywhere in the world that you want to, depending on what month you click on. And then if you want a little bit more personal, then just check me out, Mike Serbis. And I'm pretty open and share everything on Instagram and always happy to talk to people and message and have some good communication.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Mike, thank you so much, guys. This is Chris Guerrero. We're signing off for the Strength Coach Collective podcast. Again, you can find us at strengthcoachcollective.com or join our free Facebook group at the Strength Coach Collective. We'll see you guys next time.