Strength Coach Collective

Pamela Gagnon: Having Fun With Gymnastics—For Life

• twobrainbusiness@gmail.com • Season 1 • Episode 32

Share episode

Today on the “Strength Coach Collective,” host Kenny Markwardt sits down with Pamela Gagnon, former Division 1 gymnast, longtime CrossFit coach and the co-creator of Performance Plus Programming.

Pamela explains her “playground approach” to coaching—breaking complex skills into their fun components and strength elements—and shares practical mobility strategies that take just minutes a day.

She gives new coaches tips for working with clients, such as using simple language (“make a turtle shell” instead of “retract your scapula”) and focusing on 1% daily improvements rather than end goals that create frustration.

Kenny and Pamela also discuss coaching older populations and how gymnastics fundamentals such as balance and getting up from the floor become critical life skills as we age.

Whether you're working with nervous beginners, competitive athletes or older adults, Pamela's approach can help you teach movement skills safely without overcomplicating coaching.

Links

Strength Coach Collective

1:19 - Pamela’s journey into gymnastics

8:10 - Injury prevention and recovery

23:46 - Coaching skill progression

34:25 - Gymnastics for older athletes

48:07 - What is Performance Plus?

SPEAKER_01:

Most coaches kind of suck at coaching gymnastics. Sorry, but it's true. It's not as simple as just adding a little bit of weight to a barbell following a percentage program or adding reps to sets, et cetera, et cetera. There's a lot that goes into it. And it's also not just muscle-ups, pull-ups, and higher-level things. We're talking about body weight, control, movement, balance, accuracy, and coordination. Pamela Gagnon's here from Performance Plus Programming to help me explore these ideas and help you be a better gymnastics coach. Welcome to the Strength Coach Collective, a podcast brought to you by Two Brain Business. We are here to help educate the coaching community in the field of strength and conditioning. Don't forget, you can join our group at strengthcoachcollective.com. Pamela, welcome. Thanks for doing this.

SPEAKER_00:

You got it. I'm excited. We're just going to have a good conversation. How's that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I love it. No, this is really kind of our first time meeting, which I think this is going to provide for some good organic uh discussion and digging into some stuff let's see where it goes let's do it so tell me first your background i did some research looking at you online like you've got you've been doing this for a while gymnastics yeah

SPEAKER_00:

for a while as in like since i was like six years old i'm now 51 so i really didn't take much of a break even after like college gymnastics i still taught like a high school gymnastics so i conditioned with the girls. So I kind of never really, other than maybe the year after college when I was just like, I love pasta and not working out for like one year. And then I was like, oh, this is so not me, you know? So I think that was probably the only year I just let things go. And I was just like, I'm just going to live a life of nothing, you know, but pasta.

SPEAKER_01:

And

SPEAKER_00:

then I was like, yeah, this isn't really fitting my personality. So, but yeah, So I have been in the gymnastics world since I was six years old, just kind of started, fell in love with it, never pushed by my parents. They just were like, if you love it, we'll keep driving you to practice. And when you don't love it and it becomes a chore, then we're good. You know, like I even had a conversation with my coach and then my parents back maybe when I was about 10 about training in Texas, you know, with Bella Corolli and those, you know, girls. And my dad said, I will support anything you want. But one, you have to live away from home. And two, who came in second in the Olympics? And I was like, I don't know. And he's like, exactly. What are you chasing? You know what? Remember the reason of what you're chasing or remember what you're chasing and why you're doing this. And you have to give up a whole lot to maybe chase that first place finish. And how much is that worth giving up your childhood for? And I was like, nope, not moving away from home, going back to having a lot of fun with gymnastics. And I love that my dad wasn't like, you're not going. He was just like, let's have a conversation about it. And I think like that was really the foundation of my sports in general. Like the guidance of my parents, just being like, work hard. They were very hard workers, both of them, but also enjoy the process of it. And when it stops, becoming enjoyable, like dig deep into the point of why you're continuing this, you know? And I think because of that, because I was never like, my parents weren't like bleacher parents where they're sitting on the bleachers and being like, why didn't you point your toes in that routine? You know, they're just, hey, how'd you feel in the meet? Great. So glad to see you out there doing your thing. Like they knew the coaches were there. They knew that they were the ones who gave me the feedback. And I think them stepping back which you don't see enough of now. I have a 21, 23 year old, and I just was like mind blown sitting on a rec basketball, watching these parents rec basketball. This is like fun basketball. Go work hard, sweat for an hour. And these parents were coaching their kids from the sidelines on the bleachers, like they were gonna make the NBA. And I'm like, what in the world is going on? But-

SPEAKER_01:

No, totally. Can you go door to door and talk

SPEAKER_00:

to all parents- Oh my gosh,

SPEAKER_01:

man. I'm like, I'm so like, I want to hug you right now. Cause I feel I have an 11 year old son and we are mired in that stuff. And I see it with, I, he's not into gymnastics. I've not been involved with that sport, but I, from what I understand it is that is on the higher level of the intensity in terms of commitment and expectations and, and you know, all the things that are, but the, the law losing of the point is so common and so so unfortunate. And so, you know, I wonder too, just your year off, but then coming back into it. Yeah. That's probably a person, a lot of personal experience, but I think that so many kids burn out on their sport because it's just been pounded into them. And then when they stopped, like I'm never doing that again for as long as I possibly live. Cause that sucked.

SPEAKER_00:

And what's the truth? Like think about what the real reason we get into sports. And this is also why CrossFit build confidence, healthy lifestyle, mental fortitude and toughness, and being able to take direction, listen to authority, and work as a team. And when you lose sight of that, and you think your kid's getting a scholarship, you've just, yeah, you've lost sight of it. I mean, that's the only way I could think of it. Totally. Yeah, so I feel really grateful that I had really good role models that were all about hard work, but all was about balance. Yeah, I had the best time in college. is gymnastics because of that. And I actually, so I went to Rutgers University and we had a lot of fun. Like we, you know, we knew gymnastics was not, our future after college, you know? And so we were about making friendships and getting our degrees and, you know, throwing in some fun in there. I mean, when you go to school in Jersey, you know, it's going to be a little bit fun, you know? So, and, and then I'm more, so that was like my gymnastics career and then kind of coached gymnastics after college, but felt really lost in my own fitness journey. And that's why I took that year off. I was like, there was no such thing as, adult gymnastics because CrossFit had not even been invented. I graduated college in 1996, you know, and so once you graduate college sports, you were kind of put into like the Globo gym or just stay on the treadmill for an hour. And that was not, you know, fulfilling my excitement of fitness and in general at all. So I felt really lost. I did spend many years climbing that Stairmaster where the stairs disappear And like, what am I doing with myself, you know, and doing just gymnastics, body weight, conditioning on my own, like in the little corner of the gym or even in my house, just press the handstands, like building up 50 at a time and V ups and just push ups and just kind of training in that old school way that I knew. And then in about late 2010, I found CrossFit and I was like, the light had shed. It was the first time I had like swung from a you know, or done pull-ups in a really long time from like a real rig that felt like a gymnast. And I just fell in love immediately with the technical side of it, with the community side of it, with the competition side of it and with the coaching side of it. So here I am.

SPEAKER_01:

Beautiful. So you've been, as you acknowledge, doing gymnastics for a long time. From what I've seen, and again, this is from a way outside perspective, but I do know a handful that were competitive gymnasts, and it can be a bit abusive on the body. Have you been able to stay healthy? Were you always healthy? What's that look like?

SPEAKER_00:

I have been very lucky staying genuinely healthy. I did have ankle reconstruction surgery freshman year of college. But I came back from that almost, almost a hundred percent. Like my tumbling was never really as, you know, powerful. But if I did that surgery now, I'd be back in like a week tumbling, you know, back, back in 1992, I was cut like, you know, from literally like mid shin to like toe for, you know, now it'd be like three little pinholes and they'd be like, you know, but I think because I've always stayed flexible, I think that's helped me stay as injury-free as possible, even through CrossFit. And if you look at... people who have aged in their seventies and eighties who are Uber flexible, yoga, Tai Chi type of, you know, older adults, they have very strong, healthy bodies that the more mobility and flexibility you have, I think the better we age and also the less injury we're prone to, you know? So I think that that has kept me mainly injury free. I mean, I definitely, you know, was dealing for a year with like, some shoulder issues but it wasn't after 51 years something's gonna break down you know but i came back from it i didn't need surgery i rehabbed it with my business partner dr zach long and my gym owner cory helped me through a lot of that as well too with um just you know kind of breaking up some scar tissue and all that

SPEAKER_01:

yeah i think that's such a like yeah you get to if you're gonna use your body doing things you love to do you're probably gonna you know it's like a vehicle. If you drive it 300,000 miles, you're probably going to have to pay a little bit more attention to alignment and et cetera. So,

SPEAKER_00:

yeah. And I think like, if you look at elite athletes in like baseball NFL that are very agile, it mostly comes from body awareness, coordination, flexibility. And so they're able to do literally a full split baseball players, like to catch a fly ball, you know? And so that is just such an overlooked aspect. aspect of the CrossFit sport of just everyday people. Like, everyday people are in the sport of CrossFit. You know, they do it at a different level. But I think, you know, because the intensity, we want so much of the intensity, I think it's really hard to tone people down into, wait, wait, if you can't even get into the position correctly, like, don't worry about the intensity yet, you know. And when you take the, you know, CrossFit L1, you learn mechanics, consistency, intensity is what it was founded on. And so a lot of us need to be reminded of that.

SPEAKER_01:

I totally, yeah, a hundred percent agree. I think that people hear intensity, especially outside. Like I think that people come into the gym and, and they know the intensity is the main, that's the main course. That's where they want to focus. What does building that flexibility look like? I think that, you know, people spend time on foam rollers, they screw around doing stretching or whatever, but like, what is your, your routine? Like you have advice. Tell me, tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I just go back to my foundation of old school. gymnastics, splits, wrists, bridges, like L-sit pancakes. And I do more active stretching, meaning if I'm in a split, I do a lot of like, you know, bouncing through the split position. And then it allows me to like go lower and fold. I don't do a lot of static holding. But even if you get in just literally one minute a day, You will absolutely feel an improvement. So when I wake up, I'll go into the bottom of a squat and sumo squat just to loosen up my ankles in the morning. I do that every day. It takes 30 seconds. It can be as you're brushing your teeth. So think of a baby, how they sit really low in a squat. Just bringing yourself back to your mobility back when you were born. You were born to sit low and squat low and, you know, and just getting back into that. And the more, the more we get away from it, the harder it gets to be back at it. But yeah, I go real old school. Just, you know, I can't really do a great bridge with my feet on the ground anymore. So I'll put my foot in the box. It opens the shoulders up, thoracic spine. Yeah. And like, I don't really have like some, like, I don't not like Joe Rogan where I wake up every day and I'm like 100, you know, 100 sit-ups, 100 I'm not that regimented in my stretching, but I do definitely stretch. almost every day, even if it's for a minute.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I love that. I feel like it's the, if you don't use it, you lose the range of motion. I think there's that probably pertains to that more than anything. It's like Velcro. You know, if you, if you let it sit, it's real hard to unstick, but if you keep it moving, it doesn't so much. How do you feel like the regaining of range of motion has been a very, that's been a selfishly is a big challenge for me working with people. How do you, how are you able to overcome that?

SPEAKER_00:

Do you mean just getting back their mobility? and always

SPEAKER_01:

yeah you know especially overhead like I think that's a big one people have a very they don't go overhead they don't raise put their hands over their head in a vertical line very often and then we ask them to shoulder press push press whatever or pull ups and they're starting to try and express a range of motion that they really no longer pertain or possess yeah how are you able do you feel like you have advice in terms of regaining ranges of motion in that way

SPEAKER_00:

yeah so a lot of it is just like People have really tight lats for overhead. That shortens their range of motion and mobility. So right before the class does shoulder overhead, I will run through something where I'll have them set up a barbell on the J hooks. They'll hold a kettlebell, swing their arm over, lean back just a little bit to get down into that armpit lat area and allow the arm to just swing, that'll break up some tissue there, some good fascia, like, you know, it's like a deep tissue massage and give their range of motion as well too. So I think making sure you have one to two go-to things that work with an overhead lift, not using the same thing every time, just as a coach is going to be really helpful. And then every time they put the barbell down in between sets, I make them do that again, especially the people that are uber tight and I have had a bunch of those in my in my classes for sure or in my garage which we are in right now so it's it's repeating the motion of you know the mobility then the lift the mobility then lift and they feel like a million bucks because like oh my god like I do feel looser I can do that and you you know you're not going home with them to make sure they repeat it but if you can model it in the gym as much as possible then that's a great thing. I think more programming could be modeled after that, you know, after a lift, you are going to go use the band to open up your front rock position and spend 30 seconds doing that and then go back to the lift. I think that would be something that, you know, you can incorporate a few days a week with your athletes as well. Um, but it's hard, you know, it takes a long time and I, I try and tell them like 1% better is better. Like you're not, you're not going to gain like full mobility in this one session, you know, but like, let's celebrate the small moments. I think, I think when you lose an athlete to frustration is when all they're thinking about is the end goal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

totally. And okay. So like, instead of that, let's rephrase it. What's your angle for today? That's what our focus is, you know, and then you pile that on and each day you get there and that's huge in in my CrossFit gymnastics world of teaching because, you know, I just had an athlete come in here and she is a master's games athlete and really wants a ring muscle up. And I'm like, all right, that's a long road, but it's not gonna be a long road because today your only focus is going to be this drill, get this drill better. And then each day we're gonna slowly add up those drills. over the next six months, eight months, a year, you're gonna be like, oh my gosh, that really worked. And so it's the same thing. I try and relate it to how you learn how to read. First, you recognize what the letter looks like. You don't try and read the whole book before you even recognize the letter, then sound it out, and then you put it together with one word, and then you put it together in a sentence, then it's a chapter, then it becomes a book.

SPEAKER_01:

Totally. Yeah, I love it. And I like the... You know, it correlates to me with, with a barbell where it's like a, you know, West side barbell is like PR instead of PR every day kind of a thing. And it doesn't mean a one rep max. It doesn't mean a, it's just, you know, whether it's quality, whether it's weight, whether it's reps, whether it's, it's just that daily goal rather than the like, okay, I want to squat a thousand pounds. Like that's, that's going to take some time. But if you try and look at it incrementally, it's just much more palatable and digestible.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I think like as a gymnast, if I was like six years old and I was like, all I want to do is do college gymnastics. I was like, would just that hyper focus on that and be like, I'm never going to be good enough. Never going to be, but that wasn't my focus. My focus was just moving up a level. Like, okay, I started out here and this is where I want to compete next year. And then slowly added up, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. That's a man. There's a lot of psychology there. We could probably get into a different conversation for a different day, but you know, hitting the goal often isn't even as satisfying because you know what I mean? Like I've seen so many people that hit the goal and the next, you know, two seconds later, they're often like, well, let's go find find the next one. Like you've been chasing this for years. Like that's all the falling in love with the journey and the process and the, you know, the daily victories. I think it, like you said, it's that's the, that's the magic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I find that a lot. So I have a ton of athletes that come to me for bar muscle ups and they, they, it's so, so they get their first bar muscle up and automatically right away, they get the first one. Then they're like, all right, now I want to string it together. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like let's, let's get this where we can do 10 singles confidently. And it's this constant, like, you know, and that also is a great personality trait, but it can also frustrate us as athletes or we get hurt, you know? And so a lot of us have bad shoulders because we're trying to chase something too quickly before we get the technique down and the stability and the understanding of the skill and perfecting it at that level because we see next to us training, you know, some better athlete that we're like, oh, we want to be there. So yeah, it's just kind of... Learning, learning that it's in the process. Yeah. Which is hard. I'm, I mean, I'm guilty. I'm not like, I'm not saying that I do this well. I always kind of, you know, rush into something as well too, but I think because of my training and as a gymnast, you had to repeat drills and routines hundreds and thousands of times before your coach would allow you to move on to the next skill. And so I think that's just more ingrained in my natural training process, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Totally. And I think there's a lot of benefit to learning that as a, as a kid, as adults, especially as a coach, I see this where there's more autonomy as an adult. And you feel like you have more, I think you feel like you have earned your right to just make your own decisions and earn, you know what I mean? And as a coach, it's hard to tell somebody like, sorry, no, you have not earned the right to do this thing. And like, well, I'm paying you. I'm here voluntarily. And like, I just don't know what to tell you. That's what I'm telling you as your coach. Like,

SPEAKER_00:

that's why you're say that yeah like i was just gonna say that they're like wait but i'm paying for this but like wait but you're paying for me to keep you healthy and safe i know it's a fine line for sure you know it is and you have to you know learn athlete wise how to you know deal with different personalities but i think in the long run they truly respect you when you give the reason behind it so um it's like with band with pull-ups i actually will take an athlete down from the banded pull up and be like, listen, I understand there's a time and place for this, but it's not helping you gain the first portion of the skills strength by that scat pull up and that first quarter pull. Let's try something else for four weeks. Tell me if you don't like it after four weeks, we'll go back to the band and I put them on the box and we do toe assist box pull ups or we do ring pull ups, not ring rows. And they are dying. They're like, I've never never worked this hard. I don't want to use the band. I'm not getting stronger, you know, and some athletes never want to get a pull up. And I'm like, if you want to just, you know, use the band and that makes you happy, go for it. But here's the reason why I would take you off. If your goal is truly to get stronger shoulders and pulling strength. And then, so I always, I always give it as like, um, a test, like, give me four weeks, come back to me and we'll, we'll talk about it. And that That way they don't feel like you're stripping away their like blanket, you know, like their comfort blanket. Totally. And you're like, they're like, huh, maybe she does know what she's talking about after they've tried it. And it's like super hard and they're so sore, but they also feel really strong when they're doing it, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. especially as a newer coach, I've been doing this 15 years or something. I don't really have any problem with though. Like I have the, why I have the, you know, not to, you know, promote myself or how, but, but what I find is that newer, newer coaches. Yeah. But newer coaches have a really hard, they get into that. Like they're an adult. They can make their own decision. I don't want to feel like I'm putting him in time out. And I can't explain that without just kind of saying, because I said, so, well, which is not a great reason. Do you have advice for new coaches that can help them navigate through that without just going to the, I told you so, and I'm the coach, because whatever?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so you just said the key word, like the coaches feel like, you know, they're punishing their athletes. And so they're like, oh, I don't want to make this miserable for you. So think of a way how to teach them how to play on the playground, right? So I think of our gym as, especially the gymnastics portion, as the playground, the monkey bars. the, you know, that you, everybody wants to go play. Nobody wants to sit on the bench because they can't do the fun stuff because they're not strong enough. So let's take like a handstand pushup, for instance, what's the fun part of the handstand pushup, the handstand, right? So if you're not strong enough to do the pushup portion, let's say it's, you know, 15 handstand pushups for three rounds, have them go do a 10 second handstand hold and then have them come off the wall. They've already put Play it on the playground. That's the playground, the handstand. And then have them do the strength portion, which is the push-up portion. So breaking those skills up. So maybe they're just doing regular five push-ups. Maybe they're doing box, you know, pike push-ups. So they're doing 10 seconds on the wall, the handstand hold, five reps of some sort of pressing, pushing, you know, push-up type of skill. And now that's their 15 quote-unquote reps. Now they've had fun with the handstand, but they're not coming crashing down on their head. and they're getting stronger. Like having three ab mats and moving to quarter depth isn't really getting them stronger. Why do they do that though? Because it's really fun. And you know what's fun? Being able to kick up into the handstand. So let them kick up into the handstand and then have them work on the strength part and they'll thank you for it. And I do that with every skill, like the pull-up. Have them do the kip swing because that's one, fun. Two, you learn how to support your body weight. safely you will learn how to do arch and hollow lats then have them do ring pull-ups or the toe assist strict pull-ups and breaking up again if it's 15 kipping pull-ups you're going to do 10 kip swings and then you're going to do five of the strength portion so remember it's strict versus kipping so always lower the strength portion when you're doing strict stuff so there's so many ways to have them play on the playground um bar muscle-ups right how many athletes are just so so tired of doing just kipping chest bar pull-ups when all the other you know more advanced athletes can do bar muscle-ups so what's fun about a bar muscle-up getting up and onto an object have them do box bar muscle-ups get out of the pools if you have roadblocks they can do you know get over like a get over the box so it doesn't have to ideally be the exact skill think of what's fun in the skill as a newer coach and then how can I create that for my athlete. Maybe you're putting barbells and wrapping, you know, bands around the barbells on the J hooks to make it a low bar so they can jump up into support position. So one, obviously, are they safe doing it? And two, how can it be fun and effective? Like, do you know how fun that would be as a newer CrossFit athlete to get to do like get out of the pools on a bar like you were playing on the playground in fifth grade? You would come back every single day and be like, this coach came up with a way for me to be a part of that that skill in my own, like through my own scaled version, you know, at my own pace.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. Yeah. So smart. I love the, all the things you acknowledge there, but the fun and the creativity. So keeping the client having fun, but also the creativity as a coach. I think that's one of the most fun about being a coach. Coming back to the intent, but then saying, taking a second, I think this is where I see, just to echo what you're also saying, is I see most newer coaches Coach is kind of getting a deer in headlights and panicking to the whatever answer they can come up with rather than taking a second. I have no problem being like, you know what? Let's think about this for a second. You got this issue. You got that issue. You got this is the intent. Let's play around for a while. And I'm pulling wacky stuff off the wall. I think it's fun. I think coaches often feel like they're going to be judged by not having the answer off the bat. But I think the more experienced coach may sit there and ponder for a second and think, I don't know, let's just see what, let's just try this. What do you think? And then

SPEAKER_00:

that's a good point. Such a good point. I have been coaching since I was 15 years old. I coached little, you know, the little like four and five year old gymnast and just, just in my garage yesterday, I'm doing a drill with the athlete and it's just not working. And I'm like, you know what? Let's just stop and think about what we're going to stop us. And, you know, she hired me to be the expert. And I think that shows vulnerability of like, you know what, let's think of this together. All right. So we could like, I could see what the issue was, you know, but I was like, I think this drill might help, but it just was a disaster. So I was like, all right, let's go back to the drawing board. And you're right. We, we tried two other drills and we found on the second drill, it really clicked and work, but never be afraid. You're right. So just be like, whoa, whoa, let's pause for a second. And they'll laugh so hard. too, because you know what? They're being really vulnerable themselves. And to show that you also mess up and like they look at probably coaches who have been coaching 10, 15 years as like just these like, you know, robotic, just like never make this errors, know all the answers. No way. No, I learn every day from my athletes. So I'm going to show them like, yeah, I mess up too. And this is hard and we're going to figure it out together. And, you know, yeah, I like I love that point. for sure

SPEAKER_01:

yeah there's a saying or there's a metaphor or whatever but it's like that you know when you start out you don't think you know anything and it's true and then there's a point at which you think you know a lot and then the more you learn the more you realize you don't know anything and like at this point in my career I'm like I don't know like I'm not sure let's just there's probably more to learn there's more to try and I don't know we'll figure it out though it'll be fun but

SPEAKER_00:

yeah I used to I still spend like was in my garage like trying out new drills and being like all right would this click with an athlete and it's funny like um my workout partners i'll come home like they'll do something like say we're working on handstand push-ups and these guys are like you know kind of I would put them in the elite category that I work out with, you know, elite, whether it's masters or they are great athletes. Right. And, um, but like, I'll be like, Hey, you could tweak that a little bit here for the handstand pushup to make it easier. So then like three hours later, they'll see like an Instagram post with a drill. Like if you do this in your handstand pushups and I'll get bombarded with our like group texts, like I feel very called out. Like, are you like, you know, and so it's so great because I come back learning still from even the elite of the, or the RX plus athletes of the group. And I learned from them like, oh, this, this could be something I could connect, you know, my athlete with of this cue. Let me try this drill. And then I'll be like, no, that didn't work. You know? So I'm constantly going back to the drawing board. And I think that's why we come back every day and feel really inspired by our athletes because they are are highlighting like, hey, I need help with this. Now it's my job to come up with a way that's effective makes sense and also not too quirky. I think like, I think a lot, you know, with like the clickbait and all that, I see some drills, I'm like, come on, come on, like, you know, like it's just a little clickbaity, you know, like creative, but you know, so like just simplify it. I think the best professors, teachers, coaches, if they can explain a very complicated skill or drill in the most simplistic way. Like you're teaching a five-year-old. You don't need fancy words. You don't need fancy muscle words. You don't need, you know, I mean, I literally use words like make a turtle back, like, you know, like a turtle shell with your back to adults. And they're like, oh, okay, I get that. If I were like pressure anterior lat into your scapular, they'd be like, what in the heck are you talking about? Simplify it. They know you're smart. They know I know you do lots of work to become the elite coaches that, you know, you are. And so just don't be afraid to simplify it. They'll appreciate it. I went off on a tangent. I don't even know where I went with that, but

SPEAKER_01:

no million. I, again, in terms of the, I've seen him as I train new coaches at my gym, they, they, they've somehow gotten in this pattern of using the word triple extension. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Nobody,

SPEAKER_00:

nobody knows what that means. I know what

SPEAKER_01:

that means, but like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Like the general athlete is like, what does he mean? And then they overthink it. Right. Just jump. Why

SPEAKER_01:

does it have to do more than that? I don't know. Good advice. It's like the simplicity that. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. No, one more. studying the skill, like as coaches, it is important for us to understand there is triple extension going on because we have to be able to understand the intricacies of it and then simplify it. So it's so important to continue your education as a coach. And then it's the most important to try and teach it to your five-year-old niece or nephew, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

I've stolen so much from our kids coach. I'm like, that's a genius adult key. Like I'm using that one. We're doing that one. So good.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. I totally agree. That CrossFit kids course is like, I almost think like everybody, every adult coach should take it because it is simplifying it in the best way possible.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. In terms of simplifying, I want to explore. A lot of us are working with older people. We're getting older. Unfortunately, things are getting Yeah. In terms of like, so gymnastics, I think it's when, when especially CrossFitters or competitive athletes think gymnastics, they think bar muscle-ups, they think pull-ups, skipping pull-ups, they think handstand push-ups, handstand, you know, all the like higher level stuff. But I think in my opinion, I want to hear your, your voice on this is the reductionist perspective on that for the older populations and how that fits and what that looks like and how we can help more people with, the concept of gymnastics, but, but scale down.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So gymnastics in its simplest definition is just body weight skills and gymnastics is balanced coordination, agility, and accuracy. So how can we work on balance coordination, right? All of those things are so important as we age. I actually coach a few athletes in my garage that are, you know, between 65 and 70 And their goal is to build more balance and continue building like strengths. So. Yeah. We do a lot of, you know, just like we're not doing pistol squats, but we're doing one legged balancing. So think about like the higher level skills. What are they helping you do? All right. Pistol squat is a squat on one leg. So that's also neat. You also need strength and balance, right? So we might be working on the balance portion and then the hip flexor portion by just doing like some seated, like really like L raises with each leg. So you're working on hip flexor strength and just kind of how you can build the coordination and balance into a more simplistic form of all of the gymnastics form. So maybe they can't hang from the pull-up bar. So we have a band that they are pulling down, but they're still working on the balance, the back muscles and pulling strength, you know, and they're not rope climbing, but maybe they can do like from even like a box seated position, just like climb the rope and to stand position when they're have their feet planted on the ground. There's so many creative ways to... bring that into even the class setting. You know, they don't have to work out on their own. I know so many gyms are starting like their, you know, senior, you know, classes where it's like 60 up and working more on that. But I think that really like the coordination and the whole press getting up and off the floor, or if you fall, can you get the cat, like get to the countertop and pull yourself up? Like as we really age, like 70, I mean, I think like as us CrossFitters, as we hopefully age through that, we're going to age super strong and hopefully stay healthy. So this is for like very deconditioned people who really haven't worked out at all and come in at 70 and their PT doc or their doctors like you need to really get some PT or some fitness in because you're starting to fall. You're going to break a head. hip and that's some real life stuff right there, you know? And I think if you want, if you want to be a good coach, start doing it yourself. So come into your garage or your whatever, you know, kitchen and just lay on the floor and be like, what's a good thing, good way I can help them get up where I'm taking it from the gym, but from home to the gym. So how am I going to use the gym equipment to help mimic this stuff sitting Yeah. it's eyeopening to see like, oh, that didn't work at all. And then this worked great, you know? And so that's why it's really important for you as a coach to also try it out and see how it's going. I got, I get a fly, a little gnat coming in my garage.

SPEAKER_01:

It's time of year for whatever they, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

I know they're really, and I'm all sweaty cause I coached and worked out. So they're really, they're really, uh, stick it to me. Um, so yeah, I think it's important if you want to become better every day as a coach, do exactly what you tell your athletes to do. Practice, you know, practice coaching, practice drills, practice what you, how you want to relay it. Everybody has a different voice when they coach, you know, nobody's going to coach like me. Nobody's going to coach like you. And that's the beauty of why we can have eight different great gymnastics coaches because we say it eight different ways, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. And somehow the people that can say it one different way than me, somehow they make the changes I've been trying to get for somebody for months.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And it's also like I have learned so much. I follow like some elite gymnastics coaches, like true gymnastics coaches online and on YouTube. And I learned so much from them because I've been out of that world for so long. And then I'm like, all right, how can I translate that to the CrossFit space? And so I'm constantly learning as well too. It's just like this constant chase of just trying to help one more athlete. That's how I feel as a coach.

SPEAKER_01:

That's awesome. I also, I love your thought process around the practicing of the elderly experience. Like that is a, that's context that's hard to understand as a lifelong athlete. I'm in my 40s. Like that's, I don't know. Like, but I, but the horror of falling in the middle of your kitchen alone and being and laying there for three or four days until somebody checks on you. I can understand that, but I can't like, so the practice of that experience is okay. Well, what does that actually got? I mean, I think, you know, as a coach, like, oh, we'll just do some burpees or bodybuilders or like, I don't know if that's the thing. Like, let's talk about, let's talk about what that actually, that experience would be and demonstrate it to you so we can practice it. I just like that. When you brought that to mind, I thought that was such a good observation to practice it. Like you said, to play around and say, hey, what happens here? What if I do fall down and I have a hard time just getting back up like I always have? That's great.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and I think that because of the space we're in, we see so many fit people. We forget we're the minority in our world, you know, and a lot of people don't move their bodies. They're whole adult life. And when they get to that aging process, it just becomes extremely difficult. And then they are scared into like, oh, gosh, I don't want to be on the floor for three years, three days without someone checking on me. Not three years, three days without someone checking on me. So I'm going to now start the journey. And I love that they don't think it's too late because it's never, ever too late. I get so many like If I put up a pull-up program, they're like, oh, I'm 50-something. It's just too late for me. And I'm mind-blown that people put this age limit on progress and goals. I'm like, no. No, no. It's not. No. I took up guitar at 47 years old. I hope when I'm 60-something, I'll learn something new. I'm learning AI. I'm studying it now. you know, just starting new and different things, just like do it because it fuels you, not the, you know, don't limit yourself with age, you know? And so the, so it's great when you're, you know, somebody 75 and saying, Hey, I've not been active my whole life. I'm ready to be active. I'm like, heck yeah, we're doing this, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Totally. That's one of the things if I, this is a weird example, but I had a plane and one of the little signs I could drag around and be like, it's not too late. And I, I always say that it's so I'm so emphatic about it because I think there's so much of a chorus around that. Oh, it's too late for me. Or I, I had, I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to. Like, can I, can I still get stronger? Can I still get better? I haven't worked out my whole life. And I'm like, yeah. Like, what do you say? Is this a joke? But there's so there's, I'm obviously have the perspective that I do, but they are so cemented in the fact that like, no, I'm 75. I've got a couple more years to live and hopefully I don't, you know, expire. But man, it's not, too late is a, that's one of the things I just would

SPEAKER_00:

love. I wonder if it's like, like our generation to like our parents and grandparents live with the, with the mindset that at 55 you retire and you sit on the rocking chair, you know? And I think like, your your generation my generation you know 40s and 50s who have kids maybe in their teens and 20s hopefully will start to set like a new standard because i i've seen more and more and more on social media older athletes and so it hopefully will kind of break the stereotype that you don't have to just stop living because you hit a certain age, you know, but I do wonder if it's like the mentality of what my parents and grandparents really grew up with.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I was at, when you said the social media expo, I think that there's, it's so easy to, to have a negative opinion towards social media, which is probably a lot of validity to that in certain contexts, but the, but the exposure to holy crap, like she's 90 and doing this or he's whatever. And he's doing that. And I think, that that's probably a good thing. And it is inspirational to see people of a certain, with a certain label that are doing certain things realize, Hey, Hey, why can't I do that? That's awesome. So I hope, I hope the same. I hope that this is just empowering. And then, you know, my mom's doing stuff with her great grandkids, uh, which would be awesome. The same for me. I

SPEAKER_00:

mean, they added the 70 plus, um, in the master's games. Like what? That's so freaking cool. Like if you think about when you were a kid and you thought of somebody in their seventies, you've never Never in a million years would I be like, they'd be throwing around a barbell and doing like bar muscle ups at 70, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Totally. A hundred percent. I think that's like the image of a grandparent that comes to mind for me is like, yeah, you're, you're, you know, five or six year olds sitting next to you on the whatever, but it's not, that's not the case anymore. That's awesome. So

SPEAKER_00:

yeah, I hope that's it. It's also so funny. Like as I get older, like when I hear 70, I'm like, Oh, I have so much life to live. You But if I was in my 20s and I heard about somebody that was 70, I'd be like, oh, I hope they lived a great life. But as I creep towards, I'm only 51, but my dad is 81 and he looks at me like, you have your whole life ahead of you. You go do everything you want. And I'm like, my dad looks at me as I'm like a young kid because at 80 something, 51 seems young. He's like, God, if I could go back 30 years, that's a lot of years I could get back, you know? So it's, it's just the perspective is just mind blowing to me as I get older. And it didn't really hit me until like my friends or my sister, everybody was in their mid fifties. I have friends in their sixties. My workout partner is a masters games athletes who's 66 years old. I'm like working out with a 66 year old, you know, and we're throwing around the barbell and doing, you know, ring muscle ups. And it's just like, so the perspective's so much changed so much for me as I became you know an older athlete you know oh my god it's so crazy

SPEAKER_01:

it is and that's how I knew I was getting older is when I was looking I was giving advice like that to my 20 year old coaches and I'm like you have so much life like wait a minute I thought I was actually their age and nope not even close

SPEAKER_00:

I know but I do think that also that experience I appreciate my age because of the experiences I bring to the table and I do think it makes me a better coach you know I wasn't a great coach when I started out at all I was like gosh I was floundering around just I stuck to two cues and you know and you just slowly learn so I think coaches have to be also a little bit kind to themselves and know like over time it gets better and easier and with the gymnastics itself understanding like what the skill is, the fun part, the strength part, and then how to get your athlete on the path to be excited and get stronger.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, totally. Let's talk about pure performance. I want to hear what you're doing there. It's just in terms of educating coaches and all that. You have so much on there. Oh, my gosh. I was overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_00:

So Performance Plus is our business. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Oh, that's fine. I like that name, too, though. Performance Plus is our business, and my business partner is a doctor, a PT, Zach Long, and he is as passionate in PT as I am in gymnastics and we kind of met up about 12 years ago and just started writing articles for the crossfit journal and together he's out of north carolina as well and we just were like hey there's kind of a missing hole in how to teach the gymnastics and the mobility part of it and stay ahead of injury and we kind of morphed our business into creating you know first bar muscle-up toes to bar program lats to fly get your first pull-up um and then bulletproof back and Bulletproof Shoulders and just kind of all these programs integrated that are just accessory work. They like take 10 to 15 minutes, a few days a week. And we've helped over 50,000 athletes. We have a spreadsheet like hundreds of miles long of just like success stories with, you know, I got this skill and, you know, we just break it back down to the foundation. And like you and I had the conversation, in fact, in the very beginning of this, is just focusing on getting this one drill today and not worrying about the final skill. Like with our Bar Muscle Up program, you're not allowed to even try Bar Muscle Up until the last day. We don't even come close to it because take your mind off of the finality of it and just focus on just building the strength and body awareness and, you know, the timing and coordination. And so it's been an absolute passion to be able to reach at athletes around the world because it's online. Um, and yeah, I just, um, you know, we consistently try to work on our programs to rewrite them, make them better. But the, my, the best part of it is like, we've created kind of a community on our Facebook page where you can drop, you know, a video of the drill you're working on, get feedback from me, um, from all of our athletes, like see like, Hey, I'm struggling on this too, or wow, I'm working on that as well and i think it just gives you a little bit of encouragement to keep going and uh yeah ricard so that is performance plus that's

SPEAKER_01:

so awesome

SPEAKER_00:

yeah i

SPEAKER_01:

mean just this is gonna be offend some people but weight lifting is pretty easy because it's so progressive in nature it's like okay well you know again movement pattern wise it's gonna be a little bit but like add a little bit of weight and reps and like that's cool but like the gymnastics progression stuff is very there's a lot of complicated stuff to that. And it's no, in no way can you do the same, or you probably can in some fashions, but for the most part, it's not, it's not possible. You can't just take weight off of somebody every time or, you know, so that's great.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. But we have taught like through like all of our drills, how to deload the body and increase reps and sets. So there is a way to take weight off. And it just, you know, like we, like I do box ring dips or, I do toe assist pull-ups. Um, so yeah, there's ways to deload the body, but it doesn't make sense unless you're really, um, being involved in how to teach it, you know, for a very long time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Right. And I think that's, what's missing is that experience.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think most people get just for, with your well-roundedness with Zach on the team too, because with your gymnastics perspective and his tissue based physical physical therapy perspective, I do think that's where most people mess themselves up injury wise is they try and load tissue too early and they're, you know, they're kipping through what they should be doing strict first and et cetera, et cetera. So that's awesome that I think you're doing a huge service to both the progression for somebody, but also the prevention of injury and, you know, moving away from health and fitness, which is the worst case scenario.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

That's cool. Pamela, this has been awesome. I've, I've had a lot of fun. This is a great conversation. So thanks for doing this. Uh, where can people find you? Um,

SPEAKER_00:

Instagram at Pamela G non and pretty much my YouTube is the exact same thing. Pamela G non and performance plus programming.com. The link is on my Instagram as well too. I post drills almost daily on my Instagram, a lot of my YouTube longer, longer form videos as well. And you can try out performance plus for a free week. Um, to just kind of see what it's at. You won't be charged until like the week is over. So you can, if it's not for you, we understand, but we really want, we are so passionate about our product. We want to give you the opportunity to get a sneak peek at it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Awesome. Well, thanks again for doing this. Great

SPEAKER_00:

to meet you. Yeah, you got it. Thanks for having

SPEAKER_01:

me. Yes, it's been fun.

SPEAKER_00:

You got it.

SPEAKER_01:

Bye-bye. See you. As always, thank you for listening. And don't forget, you can join our group at strengthcoachcollective.com dot com.