Ep 25: Improving Your Business with Mark Denkler of the NSRA

Mark Denkler, President of the National Shoe Retailers Association (NSRA), joins host Pete Mohr to break down the shipping, card processing, and insurance costs independent shoe stores rarely renegotiate — and what it's actually worth to fix that. This episode marks the first show under the NSRA's new sponsorship of The Footwear Retailer Podcast.

What you'll take away: why NSRA members ship at roughly half of published rates with no delivery or fuel surcharge, the exact sentence Mark uses to renegotiate card processing, what 7.7% of sales in lease costs means for your store, and why one member left $11,000 on the table over eleven months.

Brought to you by the NSRA.

Join the NSRA today: NSRA.org
Connect with Mark Denkler:
📩 Email: mark@nsra.org
🌐 Website: NSRA.org

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The shift starts here.

This episode of The Footwear Retailer is proudly sponsored by the National Shoe Retailers Association.

NSRA supports independent footwear retailers with tools, connections, education, and resources to help you run a stronger business. 

To learn more about the benefits of membership or to sign up, visit:
https://www.nsra.org/page/benefits

Pete Mohr is a longtime footwear retailer, business coach, and owner of two Shoetopia stores in Ontario, Canada, helping business owners build stronger companies that support a better life. 

To learn more about Pete's programs and coaching or to book a free initial chat about your business goals, visit:
https://pete-mohr.com/

Transcript

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Hi, I'm Mark Dankler with the National Shoe Retailers Association. We are proud to bring you these podcasts. We have now joined the Footwear Retailer uh to bring you informative information, talk to different people, solve different problems. Um, but we're excited to bring this new format to you so you can listen when you want to listen um and get the information that you need on a timely basis. Welcome back to the Footwear Retailer podcast and today marks the beginning of a new season and an important new partnership. The National Shoe Retailers Association has joined us as the principal sponsor for the podcast and this partnership will help us bring you even more conversations with retailers, suppliers, and industry professionals who understand independent footwear retail. And it seemed fitting to begin the season with the NSRA president, Mark Dankler. And Mark was a fellow footwear retailer, an industry advocate, and someone I've had the opportunity to work alongside with in the NSRA for many years now. And we're going to discuss today the NSRA, the state of independent footwear and retail and what you can expect from the podcast this season. So Mark, welcome to the Footwear Retailer podcast. Well, thank Pete. This isn't our first podcast that we've done together, but this is our first podcast together as partners. Yeah, for sure. I'm excited. And I think we've got lots of good stuff coming up, Mark. But for those that don't know you, why don't you give us a little lowdown on how you got to your sort of position as president of the NSRA and then we'll dig into the NSRA itself. Was this supposed to be a 30 minute podcast? How much time do I have? No, when I was younger, I would come down to Florida and I would stay with my aunt and uncle and I'd work in their stores. And then in 1984, when I graduated, my uncle offered me a job with his company. But I was like, oh, he's not in malls. He's not going to make it. You know, I, a stupid 22 year old, but I wanted to see the world and do things. So I went into banking and it was a rough time in Texas. So I became an auditor for three years and then I joined their executive training program at our, uh, we're the second biggest bank in Texas at the time, worked there for a number of years. Then I went to a Fuji bank, which was the largest bank in the world, then managed a $2 billion portfolio. But you know, working 730 to 930 and making good money isn't everything in life. So my wife and I- Yeah, that's like 730 to 930 AM. That's not 730 to 930 at night, it's 1030. Yeah, it's 730 AM to 930 PM. And the only reason we left at 930 is because my wife was a buyer for Foley's department store, a federated and made department store chain. And they, they turned their lights off at 930. So I was usually the first of us Americans out of the office. So once we got a little bit older, we started thinking, you know, why don't we use her talents and my talents, my financial talents, her merchandising talents, and take over the family business. My uncle is 60 and he is wanting to retire. So I kind of took up his offer that he had offered to me 10 years earlier, 11 years earlier. And so we moved to Florida, took over our family business that had been there for 40 years. My uncle had gotten it to three or four stores and was kind of dwindling down in retirement. So we came in with a vigor and okay, we're going to do all these things. I thought I'd have five stores in 10 years. But then we just realized, hey, we can grow this. And okay, if I quadruple my sales, then it's like having four more sales. So we're able to quadruple that, you know, within, um, not that, not 10 years, but almost there. So made a great living at it. But then with, uh, certain things in Florida, my rent, I think I started out, it was $20,000 a year. Then it was 150,000 plus cam. And then I just decided my wife and I, that our new lease was going to be for five years at a hundred dollars a square foot. And we just said, Hey, that's a hundred thousand dollars out of our pocket. We'd done well because my, my banking days are, we kind of saved all of her salary. So when we bought our store, we, we didn't have to be like other people where it's a 20 year payout. We were able to buy our store. So that was beneficial. And then when we were closing, I got a call from Chuck Schuyler. I was the chairman of the board at the time. He was our previous president for 15 years. He goes, Mark, I'm going to retire at the end of the year. And I think you should take my job because you know the most about the NSRA as a retailer, you can bring a lot of insights as a former banker, you know, more financial insights. So, you know, conflicts of interest. I had to get out of it. I appointed a committee. They did it. They thought I was the right person for the job. And here we are over five and a half years later, but been doing it. So you know, for five and a half years, I've been working with the NSRA as president. So let's dig into the NSRA. And for those, I mean, a lot of listeners I'm assuming are already in the NSRA. But for those that don't know what the National Shoe Retailers Association is and what it's all about, why don't you give us a little synopsis of what the NSRA does? We were formed in 1912. A bunch of shoe retailers in New York City decided that they needed to get together and be cohesive, talk about things and, you know, meet every year for an annual conference. And, you know, really 114 years later, it's the same thing. It's all about meeting people, networking. We do financial benefits that help stores. You're in Canada, I'm in the U.S., so there's certain things. We can't offer our Canadian customers, but we represent almost 2,800 stores in the United States. If there's 6,000 stores, last I heard in the United States, we're almost, you know, half of the industry we represent. It's amazing. So very, very proud of that. And, you know, there's lots of different benefits that everybody can take advantage of. We can get into those if you'd like to, but it's, you know, it's an organization, as I said, I work for you. I don't get any money out of it. I mean, yes, I am paid, but I said, you know, my business is to make you successful. So it's talking with other retailers, coming up with ideas, what they need to know. I get calls almost every day on, Mark, can you help me with this problem or so? And so it's, we're just here to help our members and even non-members. And help the whole industry as a whole, I think too, Mark, you know, like it's from your position and from the NSRA, it's like we're helping the, our membership, but also I think by having a stronger membership and stronger members within, it creates a stronger industry. And the idea of independent footwear retailers is an interesting one. And we have seen over, you know, the last, my time in business, 16 years now as an independent footwear retailer, I've seen a conglomeration of a lot of small independents into larger chains and enclosures and a variety of different things. And the strong still survive and still continue on and are still doing, and there's still new openings and there's a variety of different things that are exciting around this. But I do think there are less sort of independent one store operators than there were when I first came in. When I came in, in 1994, there was reports that I got, there was about 16,000 stores. Then after the financial crisis, it was about 12,000, then in about 2012, the last time we got real data, it was 10,000 stores, but then over the years, COVID, everything else, it's about 6,000. I don't have the numbers, but that's basically, I'm sure if I put it in chat, GBT, it might give me that number, but you know, it's kind of come down. So it's, I hate to say we're not a growing industry, you know, we grow very little, unfortunately, because we have as many closures as we do new stores joining, and hardly anybody is a new store starting out. One of our next gens, we're helping him start a new store, but you know, as I say, okay, you have $500,000, do you want to work six days a week, seven days a week, not get paid the first year, work every 360 days a year and make nothing? Or do you want to just buy a property and make, you know, $40,000 passive income or You know, it's interesting because it's the same story for almost any industry, not just ours. I mean, if you want to be a business owner, you got the blood, sweat and tears of in particular those first sort of three years and getting everything up and going. And that's why I think only sort of one in seven or so people in North America are in business for themselves. And it takes a special kind of person to be able to sort of stomach that risk and deal with that. And a lot of people are afraid of that. But for those that do want to become independent footwear retailers and business owners, it usually gives us more energy and excitement than it does, you know, taking away and thinking about all the risk and worry about it all. Well, granted, there's lots of risk. I mean, I remember in 2008 when the finance, 2007, 2008 or not, I'm not sure what year, we didn't have any money. My wife and I, between us, made $5,000. We were the eighth highest paid people in our company. Now when times are good, we did well, but, you know, we have all the risk. And when you're buying a product and a customer goes, oh, I want 40% off and you're like, I just got that in. You know, so it was very difficult in those days to survive. And that's where we at the NSRA is like the strongest will survive. Then you have the same thing through COVID. You know, the strong ones will. I mean, it does give an excuse for, OK, I think I was going to retire. So some of those people did it, but a lot of people couldn't do it. They weren't capitalized. And that was one thing I had. I didn't pay myself because I'd made good money in banking that I did not pay myself the first year and a half. So I was able to always have working capital. I didn't know credit managers. If they called me, I'm like, oh, nice to meet you. We've been doing business for you for 20 years and I'm finally meeting you because I have a $67, you know, past due for 45 days that I missed, you know, I didn't get. And you're like, really, I'm on credit hold for $67 or so. But, you know, they're doing their job, but it's my job to to pay them. And it is a partnership. I mean, during COVID, we were like, oh, you know, NSRA were like, OK, keep your money and stuff. But then I was talking to our vendor, one of our vendor partners, good friend. He says, Mark, I have two containers on a ship I've already paid for. I need the money. And it's just sitting there and I won't get it into the port for another 30 days. And, you know, yeah, we were close, but they were sitting on a high investment product. I mean, always, you know, around here, I'm in a resort town and all the bars were complaining. I'm like, you don't have inventory. I'm sitting with, you know, $750,000 in inventory that's just going down. And then myself being in Florida, that was March. We didn't open up till May. Most of my snowbirds were gone. So my customers were gone and I was sitting on fresh inventory. You know, there's a high risk there, but there is a good living. I mean, one of the reasons my wife and I wanted to get out of banking was I was working those hours. I'd never know my son. We didn't have our daughter till later on, but I'd never know them because of that. Now, granted, I worked 15 hour days from January through April and took one day off. St. Paddy State, we had a parade in town. So my business would go from $13,000 down to $1,000. So, OK, I might as well take the day, enjoy it. Then when my wife got into running, we'd go away for the Sarasota half marathon. She would run there. But it was a good break for us. But then we wouldn't have a day off until Mother's Day. But guess what? In the summers, I didn't need to be in the store. I could manage it from afar. Yeah. And I mean, I think that's the the thing about, you know, the crafting of your time when you're a business owner is there are times where you're just going to have to dig in and go. But the big thing is, if you dig in and go 12 months a year, 365 days a year, that's that's a problem. And that's a problem. Yeah, that's a problem. And that's when you need to work on from a business standpoint. And I think some of the things that I really like about the NSRA, you know, the leadership conference gives us an opportunity to actually sit around roundtables, discuss with your peers and talk about things like that, like talk about the things that are affecting us in business. One of the things that a lot of small business owners don't have is someone else who's like them to talk to. And I think that's a big piece of the NSRA is the networking facilities that are available to. I think you and I, we do great education and, you know, our Atlanta workshop, we did how to buy on AI. But, you know, that's great on how to do that. But also there was 160 people in that room that were talking with each other beforehand. Then they're talking, then they're talking afterhands, then they're coming by our booth in Atlanta. So it was a great thing. But, yeah, it's the peer to peer and relationships and that's an initiative we're going to start working on. You and I were in a meeting yesterday about, you know, getting more peer to peer conversations. But that's why I go to shoe shows. I see our members there. They can always identify me. I'm tall, so it's easy, recognizable. I don't always remember their faces and names, but, you know, I go there so they know that we're there. And I talk to lots of retailers, help them, you know, even talk to a lot of brands and our vendors because they have a question. When I go overseas, you know, they are like, oh, how can I get in the U.S.? That's not our focus. I give them to the National Shoe Travelers, let them figure it out. But our focus is independent retail stores. Own or operate? You know, somebody asked, what is an independent operator? And I'm like, to be a member, you can't be a stock exchange company. You own it. You have all the risk and you operate it. Yeah, I mean, it's fairly straightforward that way. And I think some of the other things that the NSRA brings, specifically in the United States because of the programs that are set up, but we've got a great shipping sort of set and one of the powers here, Mark was saying that, you know, with this many stores under the NSRA's wings, they can work on deals that you couldn't get as a one or two or even a 10 store sort of chain. So the power here is the buying power of amalgamating this not-for-profit group, the NSRA, and all signing in to these variety of different programs. And let's go through, you know, a few of the different programs that are most popular these days, Mark, that people might be interested in taking advantage of. Where we looked at it, these were high expense items for companies. So I've taken over, I've switched, I've enhanced, but let's take our shipping program, our shipping programs with Unishippers. And, you know, this is one of my biggest frustrations. We'll call a company and like, Oh, you know, Hey, we'd like to, you know, let us look at your invoice. I mean, it's a great business to be in. Hey, give me what your competition's doing and I'll tell you, I can beat it. But when you have somebody like us who we vetted the company, we look at the numbers and we're an advocate if they're not doing things right. We haven't had any problems with the Unishippers. We did have some problems with our prior partners, but then the customer could come to us and go, Mark, you know, they're doing this to me. And then I could call them up and go, Hey, is this what's going on? And sometimes it was, they weren't treating the customer right. Other times the customer didn't understand the agreement, but, uh, we can, you know, our program saves over 50%, 5-0, uh, on regular shipping rates. And we're not like our last partner was a broker. So they got a 50% off or 35% off, I think was our thing. This is, they have a deal. They're a franchise, Unishippers, give a shout out to them. They are a franchise of UPS, really. I mean, that's the way to look at it. So they're a partner. They can get into their systems and go, okay, this is your problem. Uh, we'll, we'll do it. But the best thing is they don't have a delivery area surcharge. They don't have a fuel surcharge. So you get all these things and then with their cheaper rates, you're really gaining. So, uh, the shipping program, second to none, uh, I haven't found anybody. We have a few of our brands and vendors on the program as well as our retailers. It's growing, but when you have a group together at say $30 million in shipping cost, that's a huge benefit that we can get together so we can give you better savings. They get the volume discounts to allow us to get it. Uh, then our credit card program, when you get retailers charging over $600 million, we get cheaper rates. There are more restrictions now than what, what there used to be. I think, you know, Lightspeed, uh, you know, Ricks, they have their own credit card. I know you're on Shopify. I don't know if you have to use their credit card systems, but. You do for their web store purchases, but we use an in-house one for our point of sale side. Yeah, but with, so we have $600 million in credit card swipes. Well, okay. If you're a million dollar store, that's $600 million means more. So the more that we get, the more discounts that we can get. And plus we're on a cost plus basis. So when I was in my prior, we, we haven't really the cost or the cost, but when people come in, you always get people, Oh, we can lower your credit card rates. And like, okay, I want cost plus, uh, four basis points. And why do I need to see your statement? I said, you don't need to see my statement. That's what it costs to get me because I'm getting cost plus five or six. So, you know, for me to change, you have to really do it. So we're also there. So to keep other people honest, you might not use our services, but you can get a quote, not that they like it, but you can get a quote and make sure. I mean, we had a large company recently join us and how did we get them as a customer? They're huge. How did we get them? Well, they weren't looking at their cost as much and it just starts creeping up. Even if you go, I'm like, okay, let us rebid it a year or two later, because guess what, they're giving you an introductory. And the savings, even like 0.01% of everything that you put through your till over the course of a year really adds up and, you know, more than pays for your membership at the NSRA, even if that's the only thing you use. The only thing that you do, yeah. Do you not want a thousand dollars? And I do get amazed that we get people. Uh, one of my, my biggest frustration in my job is we have so much that we can help people, but people don't take advantage. We have one customer, we found out we could save them a thousand dollars a month. It took them 11 months to finally switch. I'm like, you just gave up $11,000. When I was in the business, if I could save a thousand dollars, it's a thousand dollars. Now everything's relationship. You know, they're just like, oh, well, our, our FedEx rep comes in and they bring us dinner and lunch, or they bring us lunch to all the staff. Well, if you're making an extra thousand a month, of course you can pay for that. Yeah. Okay. So they gave you $200 this, you know, they do this twice a year yet. I can save you $12,000. You know, so it is take advantage of those and do it quickly because that, as you said, okay, 1%, that's a thousand dollars on a million dollar business. And the shipping on the backside of it. I mean, you know, there's just so many different things and, and there's other programs as well within the NSRA and we've got some great, um, you know, one of the things that a lot of people love about the NSRA is shoe retailers today, which is our magazine, our magazine every two months. Yeah. And so it gives you, we, we have different consultants, right? I mean, you're one of our consultant, you do your coaches quarter, you know, not everything is brain science, rocket science. It's just like, I know this, but you forget it. We're so inundated with doing everything in our stores. We forget what really matters. And just the little, oh yes, I need to work on this. You know, when we have our footwork forum, when we have our Atlanta seminars or we have seminars at other shows, you know, it's, it's not rocket science, but sometimes you're like, oh gosh, I forgot that I need to work on that. Uh, but it is the networking, you know, so education, you know, benefits, cost benefits, education through our seminars, our magazines, newsletter, you know, it's all there, you can read it on your own time and then networking, you know, so we're, we're working on some peer to peer, even this, we're doing this because not everybody can get together for a webinar at one time and then they, oh, you can listen to it at a certain time. No, this, I just go to my podcast. It downloads automatically. When I'm traveling, my daughter, she doesn't watch TV. She listens to podcasts at night, you know? And so it's like, oh, it's informative. So we are adapting to customers' needs and felt that this podcast was one of the best ways to get the message out to people. And it'll be, um, found, uh, for those that are listening on the podcast, it'll also be at, on YouTube under the footwear retailer. And if you're watching on YouTube, you can check it out on any of the podcast forums, so, uh, it's easy to find and easy to listen to. And by the way, there are, uh, 24 or five episodes that were done before this one too, in a previous season, all good stuff and all still there for listening and a lot of good information there too. Um, Mark, if anybody wants to get into and join the NSRA before we kind of go on to some other stuff, we might as well just, um, put a plug in here. How would somebody join the NSRA if they're listening to this and saying, I need to get involved? You know, I wish I had my, my business card here. I'd give you our phone number, but you're, you're going to look it up anyway. NSRA.org, you can go there. It has all the information that tells you about the benefits, uh, tell you about the networking off, uh, things calendar. I mean, if, if you want to know when a show is, I mean, we have shows through 2027 on our website. So if you want to, okay, it's show season. Oh, I'm going to be in Detroit this weekend. Why don't I just go to the Detroit or Michigan show? Um, or Chicago show be, um, or you have it, but we have a great calendar. You know, it's just a resource. So go to NSRA.org, you'll find it. Our telephone number's there. Uh, you can call Sabrina in the office. She's our membership coordinator. She'd be happy to give you information. You can call me my, she can patch you through to me and I can help you. But yeah, if there's a membership application, um, it's, it's not expensive. And, you know, as you said, if you use the services, you can, you know, save right away, you know, your membership fee, we keep it low, uh, to help our members. Cause we're here for you, you know, we're not going to charge you excess, but so we, we've tried to maintain low things. My chamber membership was even more in my town, the FDRA or not FDRA, uh, Federation of Independent Businesses. Well, you know, I'm just like, okay, I don't need all those things. So when actually, when I came into the company, my uncle, he was 60, he'd been very wealthy and he, it was kind of the store was his charitable thing, but he, he had subscribed to all these things. And then I just like, no, I got to subscribe to the things because I was not paying myself for a year and a half. I have to subscribe to the things that are making money for me. And NSRA was one of the things I kept. Then in 1996, I think we went to her 95. We went to her first Vegas show, did the half day seminar or actually it was full day seminar then and went there and met all these people. You know, I had very first, when I went to us and sat down next to Danny Wasserman, you know, legend in the industry, we did honor him into our hall of fame, but you know, and he just told me things and then Morris Brett and I, you know, got to talk to him. I'm like, wait, what am I doing wrong? I'm more of a fashion store. They're all getting into Euro comfort and certain things. And they're like, well, you don't need the capital because you're only carrying maybe six sizes and a little depth versus me, I'd be slim, narrow, medium, wide, you know, you're, you're carrying 18 across than a few in the gut. So you're just talking with those people. Then it just evolved. I got on the board in 2006 and, you know, and even that I'm on the board and I'm talking with the top retailers in the company, it's so good, it's whenever we have one of our, you know, brands that wants to become a partner with us as it, just look at your board of directors. That's the kind of people that you are dealing with and you want those people in your store. So that's why they partner with us. And then we have the backing of the other 2700 or so members as well. Mark, what's your take on the state of independent footwear retail these days? Like where it's sitting, everything that's going on in the world. Let's explore a few things around the industry. What's, what are you hearing when you're out there in the field and when you're heading over to Italy and when you're coming back to the different shows that you go to and stuff like that? You know, it's very interesting because we've had so many things going against us. I mean, over the last four years, inflation or so, I mean, what have we had 26%, 25% inflation since COVID, you know, so what cost a buck there now is a buck 25, so we've had that then tariffs, you know, last April came in and you can't even figure out how to do it. You know, right now we're dealing with Canadian problems, you know, just like really, so how do you plan for this? So it's been very difficult to plan. There's been a lot of obstacles, but the consumer is still buying. I mean, you hear it in the news. Oh my gosh, we're at war. We're doing this, you know, tariffs are terrible. Inflation is terrible, but the customer is still buying. So we're there to have the right product for the customer. And that's what makes independence different. We know our customers. When I moved down to Florida, I'd go into Macy's and they'd have the Isotoner gloves and sweaters in the aisles, you know, the extra tables for you. So you'd buy it. I'm like, it's 82 degrees outside. I don't want a sweater. I don't need gloves. But that was on the floor plan. They had that was on the floor plan because they had, Berdyne's had this many stores. They were bought by Macy's. So they put the New York buyers thinking this is what people want, but we can curate our product for our customers. And that's what makes independence the best. They know their customer. So if we're looking at our reports, if you're on the floor, you hear, you see what they want, the comments they make, the brands that they want. And so you can get those and really be there for your customer versus, oh yeah, I can get it on Amazon, whatever, or I can get it at Macy's, but we try to make people be their own brand. I do recommend that people, I said, you go into your store, you have all these vendor brands up there and you, you know, you need to have your own store. People go to your store because you want to be the most trusted source for them for shoes. Okay. I went in for a Birkenstock, but I got something else. You didn't have it in your size or whatever, but they trust that you had the product and your store personnel had the knowledge to go, you know, this is really good for your feet. You know, this, or maybe the shoe is too narrow for you. You know, a lot of our stores measure everybody and people don't realize your feet change. We used to get people, oh, I bought this store in Florida. Now I'm up North and it's too tight. I'm like, well, you came in when it was 70 degrees and now you're at home and it's 90 degrees, your foot is swelled, it's three o'clock in the afternoon, so, you know, people don't even realize those things, but we have that knowledge to let our consumers know. So, you know, kind of get back to your question. It's been very interesting because we've had so many things thrown up against us, but we're resilient and still going through and being successful. I mean, I think this year most stores are up. I think, you know, it's been good, but everybody's scared. You know, you hear all this stuff on the news and then you go into the store and you're still making new numbers. One of the things you were saying, you know, everything's changing and that's one constant is that change just doesn't stop. There's so much change in the industry and so much change in the world these days. Where do you think retailers need to become more willing to change these days? Well, we're at one of those transformation moments. Uh, when I first started in the industry, everybody was getting computer systems. When I got in, my uncle was the buyer for the first year. And then we, you know, my wife's like, I used to buy 25, $35 million. I can buy $200,000 in shoes. So he let her do that. Well, to do that, we bought a computer system. So in the eighties and nineties, everybody was getting computer systems. Then in the two thousands, it became the internet. And now we're in one of those areas is AI. If you ask me about things, AI is, we, we had a meeting yesterday and then one of the guys afterwards gave us an 11 page report that he got from AI on the problem that we had, uh, internally at the NSRA. And you're just like, oh my gosh, you know, this helps solve the problem. So we're at that time where people need to start using AI in their business. I agree. And, um, it's something that we've certainly adapted, adopted and adapted. I guess. And yeah. And you're one of the, I mean, you're not a tech person, but you love tech and apps. I like what it can give me. It, what it can give you. And you, you run a coaching business, you run a couple of stores. You didn't grow up in shoes. You had franchises beforehand, cleaning businesses and stuff. So what kind of one of the things you always say, we have to be able to use these things so we have the time there has to be a balance of life, you know, that after COVID that became, oh, I need a, you know, a balance, you know, people come in for an interview. Well, you know, how do we manage that? I'm like, you're only here 40 hours. There's what? 160 hours in a week. We're not even, we're quarter. I don't know what the numbers is, but there's plenty of time. You have your two days off, you know, we're going home and working after the store closes. When they're leaving at five or six or seven, whenever your store closes, we're still looking at it. If we were open on a Friday, we were open on Fridays till nine. If my wife and I were taking off first thing at nine o'clock, I'm saying, okay, how much money did we do today? So I know how to pay bills and stuff. My wife's looking at what we sold so she can prepare for the next day. And that's, that's part of the thing. Keep your eye on the business. There's time for fun. Like I said, I had to work my 15 hour days during, uh, January through April, because that's when I made 70, 60% of my money. So guess what? That's when I work, but then play, have your time off. I love being a retailer. Uh, and, uh, I also love doing other things too, but, um, you know, whether you're a retailer or like you said, I used to have a cleaning business. I had a bathroom renovation business, a variety of different things. But one of the things I know from a lot of the business owners that I talked to anyway, is that we get into business to have a better life. Right. And I'm talking to you, the listener now, uh, if you're not having a better life because your business isn't driving that for you, you gotta.