Dollcast
Dollcast is the trans rights reboot. Less extreme, more thoughtful and willing to have fearless conversations.
Starring Brianna Wu, Kelly Cadigan, Schyler Bogert and TafTaj, mostly normal women.
Dollcast
E1x02 Colin Wright: Unraveling Trans Healthcare
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It's a showdown with Colin Wright, one of the biggest critics of gender affirming healthcare. Through personal stories, host reflections on recent elections, and scientific insights, the conversation emphasizes the complexity and nuance surrounding these topics. The episode makes a strong call for open dialogue, compassion, and the need for more inclusive public policy discussions.
- Hosts share personal experiences and feelings post-election
- The role of the economy in shaping public sentiment towards politics
- Scientific insights shared by guest Colin Wright on sex and gender
- Highlighting the necessity of seeing trans individuals as unique persons
- Discussing the importance of open dialogue and allyship
- Critique of public policy and its impact on trans identity
- Reflection on trans visibility and community support dynamics
Political and Social Commentary on Podcast
Speaker 1Ready.
Speaker 2Let's do it. Welcome to DogCast.
Speaker 3With Kelly Cadigan.
Speaker 4I know you guys are going to tell me I'm crazy, but I think all gay men would benefit from a gender transition. Rihanna Wu. Do you know who Rihanna Wu is? It was people on the line. I said she was Rihanna Wu, so I don't know what she is now.
Speaker 1Skylar Bogart. More confused on girls or boys would be a better fit for me, and when you're bisexual and you have the potential for either, you've got to parse that out a little bit.
Speaker 5And Taj Tuff, having your story heard, having people empathize with you on that kind of political level, I think it's really hard to do.
Speaker 2It's the Dollcast. Mostly normal women.
Speaker 1Hi there and welcome to Dollcast. I'm your host, skylar, and today's episode is full of hot topics, big opinions and some good laughs along the way. I'm thrilled to be here with my amazing co-hosts, ready to dive into it all. First up, let me introduce the fabulous ladies joining me today. So to start, we've got Brianna Wu Bri. I don't know how you do it, but you're the only one who could predict a twist before it actually happened. What does that mean? Predict a twist? It just means you're good at expecting the unexpected.
Speaker 2There we go. I guess it's my spider sense.
Speaker 1I guess so.
Speaker 2You should have been on with your brother.
Speaker 4That's their catch line.
Speaker 1Then we've got Kelly Cadigan, who brings the heat with every opinion. She's got Kelly. You're like an espresso shot. You keep us all awake and on our toes.
Speaker 4You're like an espresso shot. You keep us all awake and on our toes. Wow, I guess I'm glad I try to bring the scoop and the heat.
Speaker 1Amazing, Amazing. And finally we have Taff Taj, whose creativity brings a whole new vibe to the show. Taff, I'm pretty sure you could write a novel about just putting together an outfit she could.
Speaker 1Let's dive into today's topics. So, to kick things off, we're going to start talking about what is on everyone's mind this whole past week the election. There's a lot to unpack here and you know, I think we just want to like have a moment to decompress a little bit about it how we feel, what surprised us and, ultimately, what we're hoping for next. What's the future, what's the direction? Let's break it down, so I'll go ahead and Self-pity.
Speaker 2I don't want the whole show to be about the election, so let's lock our negative feelings away and then let's go have a positive thing after that.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, honestly, though I'm not feeling super negative, I know there's a lot of negative sentiment online, but I kind of saw this coming. I'm going to be honest, like I feel like this wasn't a huge shocker to me. I like I felt like, you know, there's been a lot of warning signs along the way. There's a lot of people that are kind of just over it when it comes to the whole woke-ism thing, and I mean this has been a trend. I mean, I've seen so many people say that woke-ism is gone and whatever's coming next. I'm not exactly sure what that is, but that seems to be what Trump's whole platform was on was attacking it.
Speaker 1And I mean, let's be real, I think the biggest thing about the pendulum of politics is what is the economy like? And I mean I hate to say this, but the economy has not been great during the, during the Democratic administration, and it's not like it's their fault exactly, but that's the state of things and people always want something changed. So to me it wasn't a huge shocker on this. But how did y'all feel? I mean, you know what? Was this a blind side thing when this happened?
Speaker 4I didn't see it coming. I, I mean, I just believed what the polls were saying and projected to be. Um, also, I I knew brie was working closely with the campaign, um, so I, I I put a lot of trust in her opinion, and it seems like a lot of people were not expecting this to go this way. But it is what it is, and I just think us, as Americans, the best thing we can do is accept these results and not react the way that the Republican Party did four years ago with just saying, oh, it's bullshit and the election was a fraud. You know, that's not how this country is supposed to run. And so, yeah, I think the best thing we can do is just accept it, for what it is.
Reflections on Woke Politics and Elections
Speaker 2To be fair, my claim to you on Back Channel was that the Democrats had put together a record-breaking get-out-the-vote operation to get people to the polls, which was true. We absolutely dominated on that. I expected it to be a lot closer and down to the wire and if that had been true and the polls had been true, that get out the vote effort would have carried us over the top. The problem is the American people were frustrated about inflation and you know, frankly, you know there's a whole discussion about trans politics and I think I think the the, the ads that we talked about in the last episode, I think those did have salience. So does that match up with how y'all feel?
Speaker 5I mean, it's very, it's super vindicating to see that, because you know, we talk about these things all the time and sometimes people will be like why are you talking about this?
Speaker 5Nobody cares about this, this doesn't affect politics at all, like you know, just shut up and then you see, like these polls that come out and it's like the number one thing that swing state voters said was I don't like that Kamala is more focused on these social issues of trans politics than inflation and it just indicates that like, yeah, democrats are so willing to die on these like social Hills and they're just not with their base. And I think for me that's really been the whole story of this election is Democrats continually refuse to actually engage with the issues that matter to voting. And I was, you know, kind of in my own democratic bubble, which is why I also thought it would be like, you know, I thought it was a toss-up 50 50, you know, could have swung either way and that didn't happen and I think it's just it's so indicative of how people exist in their own ecosystems and do not get a good sense of what's going on.
Speaker 1I felt like, too, like there were things that Kamala did that I was like why, Like not going on the Joe Rogan podcast, not taking up those opportunities? And then I watched the JD Vance Joe Rogan interview and I'm like, oh no, he's so relatable, he's so like, oh good. And I was like, yeah, this is a problem, you know, just looking at those like those types of signs and I'm just like what happened here? And then not to only, not just that, but the RFK thing Like I know people have mixed feelings on that Not just that, but the RFK thing Like I know people have mixed feelings on that but RFK, his whole like exit speech of when he was dropping out of the election. He came down so hard on the Democrats because he had been a lifelong Democrat and he pivoted to Trump because Trump was apparently willing to have a conversation with him when Kamala and so you have- this like reversal, which does not good, does not look good for a lot of Democrats because they don't want to see like Chinese supporting your guy.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean clearly we paid too much attention to the Republicans that decided they were not going to vote for Trump and too little for the Democrats that decided they were just so uninterested with this fringe woke project that they couldn't support us this time. And you know you asked the questions, guys how I feel about the election. I'm really torn, in the sense that you know, god, this is going to get me so much heat, but it's how I feel. There has to be a reckoning with trans politics, between this distance and what the science says and what the activist class is doing. There's got to be a reckoning between WPATH, which I think has been ideologically captured, and trans health care. And if this is not a wake-up call to Democrats to say, look, I understand, it's brand safe to have Kamala Harris events and have someone stand up and say and we're going to have total freedom for non-binary people and trans people and we're going to have trans people in women's sports and to just take this maximalist, safe position, that's going to get you the least fire from inside the party.
Speaker 2But the American people have different ideas and I don't think I'm the only one on the show that thinks this fringe activist conversation is very damaging to my rights and the strongest evidence for that is my life was so much better before we were in the public eye. No one cared, if no one even thought about me being trans right, like it literally never came up. So I just I feel like obviously I'm terrified about what the next four years are going to be for trans people. There's public policy I've heard coming down the pipeline. That truly scares me. But at the same time, there's got to be a reckoning and I'm really proud that we are launching DOLCAST in this moment, because sanity has got to come back to the conversation and I think we're really pioneering that.
Speaker 5Yeah, I definitely feel betrayed by Democrats in so many ways because the left has claimed to be fighting for me for so long and yet, at the same time, I have been telling, like left wing people, democrats, like, listen, some of the rhetoric you're using is not helpful to us, is not helpful to us, and you know the Democrats, the left, just insist on using this inflammatory rhetoric and these arguments and they insist on dying on hills.
Speaker 5That only work when you're surrounded in an echo chamber of the most left wing people. And I'm saying over and over this doesn't work. This is going to lose you elections, this is going to lead to a backlash which is ultimately going to be worse for trans people overall, and people are just not able to break out of their bubble and recognize that like, oh wait, actually trans people exist in like red states as well and, and like you know, actually other people, just people in general, exist in red states and don't agree with me and if I say the most insane thing all the time that only my friends in like San Francisco agree with, eventually we're going to get a president who is going to ban all gender transition and, yeah, people, just people, people. I see this on twitter, a lot of people are saying that the problem with kamala harris is that she was not progressive enough. Since I'm insane, I think, as long as we say that we're just going to be losing elections.
Speaker 1So completely yeah yeah, I, I feel like we we've seen a couple cultural milestones, particularly with the trans topics, that are like so detrimental but are kind of what I view is like outgrowths of the lack of policing that the left has done for themselves.
Speaker 1Like it's like that's sort of the theme of where I was almost like considering Trump, like we had that discussion before and I was like you know, trump is like actually, like you said, brie, like there's a reckoning that needs to happen, and part of my viewpoint was that exact thing is like if we don't reckon now, then the reckoning later is going to be that much worse, because it's like the problems aren't going away.
Speaker 1They're there and some of those cultural milestones were things we had talked about, but like biden trying to put the gender identity into law, overplacing the biological sex with the Title IX legislation Like I saw so many people like so inflamed over that, and it's like that's not helpful, like I don't need, that's not helping me, like that's not protecting us, that's trying to. It's an idealistic dream that, unfortunately, you know, I see where it's coming from. It's coming from good intentions but in practical application it leads to just blatant unfairness. I mean, that's it's unfortunate to say that, but it's like that's the result of it in a societal viewpoint and it's like how can we get back to a place Like what's the proper policies? And the only way to get there is with the right conversations and really bringing in all these different perspectives.
Speaker 5Yeah, and for me it's a matter of like holding the line, like there's a core line in the sand that we need to be so focused on defending. And for me that's personal freedom and personal autonomy. Like, yes, god damn it, you're an american, you should have control of your body right, and that personal expression is so important and that's a message that resonates with voters because we have these beliefs and ideals that we can live up to in this country. But we're like going beyond this line to make arguments like I don't know, like you need to like believe that we're women, otherwise, like you are an evil thing. And it's like I don't need someone to believe that I'm a woman, I just need them to not try to control my body. That's my role. Yes, right.
Speaker 1Love that that's so American. Tough tough Half a Love that that's so American. Taft, taft. For president, that is going to be the opposite title right there.
Speaker 2That's going to be it. I would vote for you 100%. I do want to push back just a little bit, like directionally. I'm in total agreement with all of you. I would urge you not to underestimate the threat of what we're going to be up against for the next four years. The size of the gender critical project and the political power they have amassed truly terrifies me. The money that is into trans politics, anti-trans politics at this point, truly terrifies me, and the Republicans have learned the lesson that attacking us will win them elections. So I know, like Buck is my friend we were really honored to do a short thing with him this week and I know he's saying trans health care is going to be just a blanket statement. Fine, I am not convinced of that.
Speaker 2There is legislation coming through that is going to impact people's lives, the place we are probably going for the next four years. You need to be proactive in keeping yourself safe. Get your legal documents in order today. Go get a passport today, because those rules are going to be changed and you're not going to be able to have your gender on there the way that is going to help open doors for you. You know, consider stocking up on, not an extreme amount, but a little bit of extra HRT.
Speaker 2If changes come through the pipeline of the regulation, they're going to disrupt it. You're going to be really glad if you've got that extra two weeks to figure this stuff out. So you know, don't screw around on this. And remember one of the strengths of the American system is if the vibe and the values of Texas fit you more, you can live in Texas, and if the vibes and values of a place like Massachusetts fit you more you can come live here. I love Massachusetts Our trans health care is excellent here and consider moving to a place that has laws in place that will respect your rights, because, generally speaking, the states do have wide authority in how they regulate this stuff. So it's undoubtedly true that you will be safer in Illinois or Massachusetts or Chicago than um or California, than other States.
Speaker 4This is so scary, like you. You were saying to me, like stock up on hormones. It's like I want to know how, like tough and sky feel. Because it's like like literally what happens if you can't get your blockers. Like one month, like you'll revert, like. Is that not like terrifying to you?
Speaker 1I mean, yeah, well, go ahead, tav yeah.
Speaker 5No, I'll say more.
Speaker 1Well, I was just gonna. I mean I, I mean I don't know if this is just me, but I, I think there's two things going on here and it's like I don't want to say I don't want to encourage the fear because I don't think. Well, no, I know, but it's like there's a balance right to this, and I think the wisdom is just to always be prepared, like I would live by being prepared no matter what. And it's like that I I'm fine with, but I, I haven't seen yet. I know, I know, bree, you, you have those insider connections, but I haven't seen the evidence that my healthcare directly is actually going to be impacted.
Speaker 1I think Trump makes a lot of promises and I will say the platform underneath of him is more scary, but it's like I think there's a lot of things that aren't necessarily going to happen just so easily and it's like I mean, look, the facts are, if he does come after and he makes like transition very, very difficult and there's more and more stories to go with, that that's going to help us, like that's going to help people regain more sympathy for trans people, because it's like that's what we're running dry of, because that's what woke ideology sort of drained from us by giving all these bad examples of non-reality based treatment and policy. And, honestly, there seems to be this psychological fragility that just scares me a little bit giving all these bad examples of non-reality based treatment and policy. And, honestly, there seems to be this psychological fragility that just scares me a little bit when, like, that is just about as scary because it's like I see that reaction online, you know, prominent, I guess. Like what I'm trying to say is that it's always wise to be prepared, but I don't necessarily want to go off and say, like everyone should take so much preventative action on the basis of fear.
Speaker 1Well, brianna, to your question.
Speaker 5I am concerned about that and I think it's believe that I can probably find a clinic that can get me HRT, you know, in the event that federal tax dollars are withheld from certain places, and I also feel confident that I could probably pay enough money through the gray market to get HRT. But I'm more worried for the trans women who can't do that, for the people who do not have the freedom to like take a little bit of time off work to make sure that they're finding someone to support them, or don't have the money to just pay that extra surcharge and get access to it. And for me, like am I personally worried? And get access to it? And for me, like am I personally worried? Not a ton. But I am worried for all the trans women who are in a similar situation to me but might not have that access. That does concern.
Speaker 2I share that and if I feel sometimes like I just come back and I really want to clarify, like Alexandra Caballero or however the hell you say her name, the the nut job, like you know, she was out there saying like, oh, trans, trans suicides are skyrocketing across the board. Trans people are just fun. That's not my message here. I'm not telling anyone to hit the roof. I'm not saying like an adult health care ban is going to happen tomorrow. What I am saying is it is reasonable to expect regulations to change, and when regulations change, it can disrupt the flow of stuff, and you're completely right, tiff, that there will be alternatives Like, look, I do, fine, I could fly to Canada tomorrow and get a turkey if it really came down to it. But I'm saying this is a wider problem I have with the community.
Speaker 2I think that the culture has changed and there's less and this is super conservative of me but I think there are fewer messages today encouraging trans women to say look, your destiny is in your hands, your transition is in your hands, your happiness, your HRT. You have a responsibility to get this done, so be very proactive in the decisions that you're making. And what I'm encouraging my sisters and brothers to do is to say look, this passport law is going to be changed like 100%. Bet on that. So if you want to have your marker reflect your gender identity, do that suit. Consider having some extra HRT on hand, and if you're worried about bathroom things, maybe it's time to consider moving to a blue state. But don't like the other side of this isn't true either. I've seen so many people so despondent in reacting out of proportion to the issues at hand, and that's not helpful. Right, it's this middle ground of be careful because some big changes are coming, but don't lose your mind either.
Speaker 5You know, just be pragmatic yeah love that.
Speaker 1I yeah. So exactly that is exactly what I think is. The is the main takeaway here, and it's like how it, and then ultimately like I'm gonna actually I'm not just gonna stop here. Kelly, did you have anything you wanted to add?
Speaker 4Well, I just I more just had a question, I guess more for Brie. Like I, I never changed my birth certificate because I just didn't think it was a big deal, because no one ever sees my birth certificate and ever since I got my license they've always just allowed it to say female. It's never said male.
Speaker 4So I was like what's the point in changing my birth certificate and I never leave the the country. I'm never going to get a passport because I never want to leave the united states. Yeah, I, I hate leaving. I hate the idea of even leaving, like the state, let alone the country um, so there's not that much to do gotta say oh my god, don't say that they're gonna come find me.
Speaker 5I'll let it go down.
Speaker 2I'm sorry there's not that much to do, but like's not that much to do.
Speaker 4But like, do I have to worry about them forcing, like when I go to get my license updated when it expires? Is that a possibility that they're going to tell me it has to say male, even though it said female. For almost a decade now they're probably not going to check.
Speaker 2I mean. Well, I don't want to fearmonger here, but depending on how you parse some of Trump's statements, he has said things like we are going to end gender ideology and there's only going to be two classes and you will be defined by your natal birth sex. So I want to be realistic and say, yeah, that's a non-zero possibility. That's a non-zero possibility and the reason you know, more documents are always going to help you than fewer documents. So I just think, like, the more tools you have, the more doors you can open. Also, like in a decade, you may want to do this. Your passport is just. It's extremely. There's such a high bar to getting a passport because they have to see your birth certificate and the federal government does a deep dive on you. It's just a generally helpful document to have. So I think that's just smart and proactive. Like don't go get a gun, like trans Twitter is telling you to, but may consider having a passport.
Speaker 5That's a helpful, legal like document I will also say I was able to get passport a passport with the female marker in texas without change my birth certificate or anything.
Transgender Identity on Legal Documents
Speaker 2Thank you, hillary clinton she's going to change that policy. But you know, the last time I got one it was before that change was made and I had not had GRS yet and it said male on it, which was really awkward for a lot of reasons.
Speaker 1So I'm curious for, like, because I've long thought about this, like you know. I mean, I'll say I changed my documents too, but part of me thinking about this was like, should documents reflect your biological sex for, like medical cases? I keep hearing this be brought up, like in the in the more critical circles that I'm like I don't have a great response for it, because it's like, well, in some, in some events, yes, I think there is a case to be made for having your biological sex on your documents. I think there is a case to be made for having your biological sex on your documents. But I also think, like, if you take the steps to medically transition and you want to live that life, I, it's such a I don't know, I can't, I can't parse out like how I really feel about this.
Speaker 2I have very little empathy for this view. If you look at my birth certificate on there it doesn't say my biological parents on there. I was adopted. It's got my adoptive parents on there. Why did they have that law that if you adopt a child you can go change that birth certificate and make you know to put it in gender critical terms, a legal fiction that they're my biological parents. Shouldn't it just reflect reality? It's like look, the reason is. Reason is you know the identity of the biological mother. That's protected. So it's easier to enroll your child in school. People aren't thinking you're kidnapping them, so you can help your child get like legal documents or a bank account, like it's.
Speaker 2The purpose of a birth certificate is not a scientific document of what your like sex was. You were born with, is your legal access to make life easier in civil society. And if they want us to integrate and to blend in, there are accommodations that we need along the way. So this entire project, in my view, it is to turn trans women into a third class citizen and to make our lives harder. And I just have I.
Speaker 5I think it is the most incompassionate argument I've ever heard I do think, for the most part, too, you can tell doctors, like you know, about your natal sex, which I I do every time.
Speaker 5I do, too, right, I'm trans and so I don't necessarily feel like I need to have that on my passport to like prove that.
Speaker 5And I guess there's this kind of fringe case where, like maybe you are unconscious and you're like brought to the hospital room and also you've had like sex reassignment surgery, so like they just really don't know and then it's like then maybe there's an issue there.
Speaker 5But also, like there can be issues with like intersex women, right, who like have, for example, like some um, what is called like gender non-conforming physiology, right, and they don't even know that themselves and like that could potentially be a problem for a doctor. So like yeah, I think that like maybe there's, you know, a rare instance in which you really just can't like tell the doctor that, and it's also relevant like whatever is going on with you. But for the most part you are either conscious or the issue is like something that, if anything, you are benefited from them seeing you as female because you've been taking hormones and like your body is, you know, going to be best treated if they give you like an amount of a drug that is relevant to like women. Um, because, yeah, because that's what your body is it seems like such an edge case.
Speaker 2That's half. I mean, what a much more likely scenario like the other than you're unconscious in a hospital room. Much more common thing is you're trying to get an apartment yes, yeah, right and you're showing them your documents and they just don't want. You know trans people living there and they discriminate against you. Or you got for a job and you know you've got to show these documents and itouchie to everyone and the Whisper Network starts and you're treated differently and you know it opens up all this harassment and discrimination in your life.
Speaker 2My life was so much better when I was stealth. I'm just 100% going to be real with you. I regret not just becoming a public figure so much of the time, but like coming forward to just talk about this stuff honestly. It has done nothing good for my life at all except my friendship with the three of you and being like the idea that every single trans person has to get outed in all those situations. It's just cruel. Like let us transition and move on with life. My DMs are filled with trans women who are so thankful for this show because they agree with our politics, but they're stealth and they can't say this stuff.
Speaker 1So like let them go have this happy lives. Yeah, I'm curious, kelly. Did you have anything you wanted to add to the question, or I just want to check.
Concerns and Uncertainties for Trans Community
Speaker 4Well, you know, before Brie like brought up the good point of just like you know, applying to jobs or getting apartments, I was going to be like, oh, why shouldn't it just say transsexual, female, pre or post op, you know? Because that's still validating that you're. You know your gender, but also sex, whatever who you are now and also just like saying, like your medical info. So if you are passed out, like they know exactly, like what you are and like what to give you. But yeah, I think you guys are right, like in 99% of cases, it's just better for it to reflect like who you are and not like go into those details about if you're trans or not. So, yeah, I, I think it should, I think we should be able to change it and I don't think it should be like a big deal, especially if someone is like actually making the transition, I think, where we get into like the gray areas when people are allowed to like change those things without doing almost anything at all.
Speaker 1Yes, can I say unequivocally where I was thinking?
Speaker 2Yes, if you are not on a medical pathway, meaning HRT at a bare minimum. Like I understand your situation, Sky and Taff, is a little different. You didn't go full on like I did. Yeah, I'm willing to make those accommodations, but if you're not on a medical pathway, uh-uh, no documents changed. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You know, the self ID stuff is a cancer and puts all of us at risk, in my view.
Speaker 1So yeah, I will say I, I I appreciate what the the argument you made brief, fundamentally about functioning in society. That's the purpose of the legal document there. And and when it comes to like, where I think about um, where I interact with like legal documentation ever, it's always the same one, which is can I see your id for this drink? You know, before you can like actually get your alcohol or whatever, and then you show them your id and then, like I remember I used to be like, oh yeah, here it is and it would like and and then they would like.
Speaker 1You know if they, if they were paying attention, they would catch the m and they'd be like what and I could tell if they noticed. They noticed it, cause they'd always give this like look and I was actually kind of funny, like it didn't really, it didn't really bother me so much, but it was like now it's just, you know I don't deal with that and it's kind of nice, it's like you know I can just move more seamlessly and I think that's the goal that should be the goal right of what it means to transition is just to integrate and move in society more seamlessly and it's like we just got to get back to that and that's, and well, anyways, that's the whole thing.
Speaker 5So my license says I'm on it, so really, that doesn't bother you like?
Speaker 4do you get anxiety when you get like pulled over or something?
Speaker 5I mean, I've only ever been pulled over once and it was fine. Um, I do think sometimes, like at a liquor store or something, I've like presented the ID and I have seen like the kind of double take go on in their head. Uh, so I totally relate, skylar, but like it. Just it doesn't come up with most things.
Speaker 1Did you ever have a problem with someone refusing it and not believing it's you Cause I did have that once. Yeah, I'm curious like if you've ever yeah.
Speaker 5Yeah, I have had that as well, where people are like, are you sure this is you, and I'm like, yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 1No, it's my twin brother.
Speaker 4Well, the picture, doesn't you, I would assume, like the picture, doesn't you?
Speaker 5I would assume, like the picture would still tell them. It's you right, or is this like you're talking? The picture is also from when I was like 16.
Speaker 4So yeah, oh well, you have to update it like every three years. How long does your license have? Does it like differ state to state? Because I feel like I have to like update mine every like four years it might be.
Speaker 5It might be different state to state. I haven't been asked to do it, I guess, so yeah so don't panic everyone.
Speaker 2It's gonna be okay, like I. I know it's scary right now. I know it's depressing, but it's. You will get through this. We got through the trump years like um. Honestly, don't panic, don't listen to trans twitter, but I think now's a good time to get your any unfinished business done.
Speaker 4This would be a good time to think about that it wasn't so extreme, though, in 2016, like I started my transition then, and I don't remember like having these fears be thrown around back then. You know right well, we're a political target yeah, we hadn't.
Speaker 1They hadn't swung so far to the left, and that's now that that time has happened and we've had all those events. Politically and culturally it's it's swinging back the other way and that's how it was able to be a cultural issue for this election.
Speaker 5Thankfully, now that we've had, you know, five years of trans activism, after we switched gay marriage to trans stuff being the main focus, thankfully things are, you know, so much better for trans people and we're definitely not way more of a target, thanks to these activists.
Speaker 4So that's. Another fear of mine too is like I mean I know we're kind of like ending the topic, but it's like with project 2025 saying they're ending gay marriage. I know that means like they're gonna like target us and count that as gay marriage. And it's like I, I want to get married, then the next like year, I want to adopt and have a family and it's like I don't, I don't know if they're gonna try to ban that, like that's such a scary thought to me you know it's a non-zero chance.
Life Beyond Politics and Elections
Speaker 2Just being real with you, I worry about this all the time. Texas, uh, you know, rolled back legal uh, gender changes. Um, yeah, they're considering sending out new ids with the the old gender marker on it. Um, I got married in california but if they do something nationally, mean could they like invalidate my marriage? I think about that all the time. So I think you know Barry Weiss, I was on her free press's election stream on election night and she said something I've been thinking about a lot where I think, with a lot of liberals particularly, there's a kind of idealistic sense that the arc always swings towards justice and that's not true. If you look at history, there are plenty of examples of minorities being targeted and the swinging really bad for them, really really quickly. So again, I'm not saying panic, but I'm saying don't be naive about what we're up against either.
Speaker 4Right, I just got to clarify. You're saying that I didn't think this was possible. Even if they did somehow outlaw gay marriage, they would be able to outlaw marriages that already have existed at a time when it was legal.
Speaker 2It depends on how the Supreme Court adjudicated it.
Speaker 5Yeah, that's insane. Again, it's like is that likely? I don't think. I don't think she's making a claim about that, I just think she's saying it's possible.
Speaker 4Yeah, it's such a scary thought.
Speaker 2I mean. But like moving, that's talking about going retroactively and invalidating mine. Could they stop that moving forward that's, I don't think that's unlikely at all, I think the retroactive thing is unlikely.
Speaker 5I mean, honestly, even with gay marriage, I think. You know, I don't, I don't know if we'll get that annulled either.
Speaker 2Um, but yeah, it is possible I could see it would have to be supreme court is that right?
Speaker 1I mean because supreme court was the ruling that made it in 2016, so it would have to be all the way, yeah I'm not saying it's impossible, but it just it really is a stretch to go that far. I think the trans stuff is a lot more likely to be where this kind of shakes out I think, sky, I love you, you're my friend.
Speaker 2I think you have a reflexive trust of the republicans and I just don't share that optimism, but but I hope you're right.
Speaker 5I'm also not Okay. Yeah, I guess I'm kind of more in the sky's camp on this. I think it'll probably be much less fun than Democrats are expecting it to be. Doesn't mean that like everything is going to be, you know, flowers and rainbows, especially on certain trans things. But I think I am cautiously hopeful not optimistic, but hopeful about the next four years.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 5See how it goes.
Speaker 1I think so. All right, okay, this has been a little sad, a little depressing. Let's switch gears. Let's kind of let's pivot to how? About a topic where what did we do this week that absolutely had no connection to the election? What did we do this week that absolutely had no connection to the election? What? What did we do to decompress and, let's say, get outside or do something different? Well, I can say, let me start this one off. I, I I feel inclined to because I mean, you know, even though, like, things didn't really necessarily go well with the election, one of the things I did was went hiking. I don't know if you all like going outside, but the leaves are changing, it's beautiful, and so we thought we would take a trip out to a nearby town that's not too far away, but it's a little bit more to the rural area and we did this hiking path. It was a trail called high bridge trail park and it's essentially this huge, like huge um path that they changed into. It used to be um a railroad track and then they turned it into just a regular walking trail.
Speaker 1And I don't know about you all, but like, getting out from online is like my way of freshening myself up.
Speaker 1It's like because the online space where you, you touched on this, how negative it is, and like coming out online.
Speaker 1That's definitely been part of my experience too, because before that, when you're stealth, like you don't get the hate because people are there in person with you, like that element of humanity is is just there in person when it's not online and you have all these anonymous warriors person with you, like that element of humanity is is just there in person when it's not online and you have all these you know anonymous warriors coming after you, um and so like. For me, just walking around outside, like I saw so many cute dogs and then parents was walking by and and one of the things that I love about transition this is such a superficial thing, but it actually really connects with me. It's just walking by, all the ladies see me and they smile and they wave and I'm like, hey, it's so fun. I don't know. I just love being out in like real life and it's definitely the way to escape, like the anxiety of what online will do to you if you're on so often.
Speaker 2I shouldn't admit this because I'm married. One of my favorite things I'll transition isn't the ladies. It's like when I was so I left, I had an early morning hit and then I went straight over to LAX. My makeup is done, I've gotten dressed really well and just marching to the airport, I've got gorgeous shoes on gorgeous dress and guys are looking at me. I just love like looking at him back and giving him a smile. So you know I'm married but I'm not dead. Oh my god, don't tell frank I will. You'll never see this. He doesn't see dollcast. Um, this is something I did. Is? There's a boston startup called love pop and these are all paper flowers, so it's at the Amtrak station. So I splurged a bunch of money and got some flowers for my office, and I also spent a thousand dollars on Gucci boots this year.
Speaker 4So that's quite the purchase you'll have to show us at some point.
Speaker 2I will I like to buy like one thing that will like last a long time, instead of, like you know, cheap, disposable stuff. Yeah, tell myself it's for the environment. Like this is so much better, so yeah, Do any of y'all like cooking?
Speaker 1Yes, I love to cook. Yes, great, that's awesome. Yeah, my partner and I love to do it like together as a pastime, and we cooked a new dish this week. It was called taiwanese braised pork rice. Really good is it was so good, I don't know. Do you all know five spice, the five spice powder?
Speaker 1no, no, okay, yeah, it's like it's kind of this aromatic, um, flavorful spice that's not in a lot of dishes and I think that's what really defines this one flavorful spice that's not in a lot of dishes and I think that's what really defines this one for me, because it's like, I don't know, it's cloves, cinnamon and then there's a couple other things, but it makes the pork really taste. It tastes amazing and, honestly, it just I don't know. I like sinking my time into things like food because it's I mean, who?
Speaker 5doesn't a good, good meal like. It's just it's such a valuable skill for sure. Five spices like such a classic of like chinese uh cooking, it shows up all the time, so definitely a good one. Yeah, I, I wish that, um, my girlfriend was like more into cooking. I definitely I end up doing most of the meals really cooking.
Speaker 2I adore it. It's my favorite thing to do.
Speaker 5I do like cooking. Um, I think it's just in any relationship you have to find like balance, right and so like, if I'm doing the cooking, I want there to be, like you know, I want her to do like the dishes or something like that, right, so we're sort of splitting the roles of um of dinner, but she, I think she dislikes dishes more than she dislikes cooking. So the solution sometimes, more often than not, is like taco bell or something like you have not put Taco Bell in your body.
Speaker 2Your body is a temple.
Speaker 5Don't do that At least two times, three times, four times a week? Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2I got a big girl job. The first thing I said is I'm never eating Taco Bell again.
Speaker 5Well, okay, I have definitely been way more healthy over the past few months and I started exercising for like the first time in my life and it is great, incredible, like I can't believe that. I like didn't do this before, but I just like I grew up as like such a nerdy kid, like always kind of in the background with like my nose in a book and I would do like the pacer test in school and it would hurt, and I was like no, I'm never doing this. I think it helped that I was like I was thin. I've always been thin, so I never felt like, oh, it's necessary for me to work out. Um terrible strategy in life you should absolutely work out.
Speaker 1It's not in retrospect.
Speaker 5I'm like this is amazing Like everyone owes it to themselves to like see what their body is capable, and so it feels so nice to be like sore in the mornings it's for me, it's like it's so hard to actually get up and do it, though, and sustain it like yeah well, that's been my yeah, I'll get into it, and I'll get so into it for like two months, three months, and then I'll be like something will happen, it will mess up my routine and the next thing you know, next the next week I'm like um, what's?
Speaker 1another week, skip, no big deal. And then the next thing you know, I'm not exercising.
Speaker 5I will say one thing that really helped me. Normal is I set up like a tracker. So I use obsidian, which is like personal, you know, note taking up, and I have it set up. So so every day when I do like an exercise, I like mark it down and I created some graphics so I could see, like in the month, which days I exercise. And as soon as I did that, I was like, oh, I've been kind of like aligned to myself about how much I exercise, because you can sort of feel like, oh, I'm exercising, and then you actually look at it and you're like, oh, I only exercised like two times that last week and like that week prior to that I did no exercise. And so putting that on like an actual graphic that I look at every day has made me like so self-aware about like, oh, I really should do this because it's one of my responsibilities and maybe I missed a day last week and so that has helped me. A ton is just like being able to see and objectively evaluate Keeps you accountable.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1That's good. I will say my. My partner, her company, does these like step challenges and those always fire us up, because when you make it a game and you're competing with people, it's like now it's just walking, so it's not like. You know, walking is great cardio actually.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's underrated, for sure.
Speaker 5OK, so are you competitive? Are you pretty competitive, Skylar?
Speaker 1She is more than me.
Speaker 2Honestly, I'm not, I'm not the most competitive, oh my goodness it sounds like yeah, sorry no, I was just gonna say I don't want to give away the game here, but I feel like the ghost of christmas feature and I want to warn you of what comes, because I was always like terrifyingly underweight when I was, like you know, teenager in 20, and then your metabolism slows down, especially your 40s, if you don't like there's a reason like so many people are overweight when they get older. So I don't know. I think like getting into this habit when you're younger will really set you up for success as you you get older. So I think it's actually really important. I love running, for whatever reason. I've got the addiction gene and like running just swear to God, it gets me higher and makes me feel better than any other drug I've ever tried to be honest. But Peloton is also really good. I mean, I don't know, just find something you like and never give it up.
Speaker 1Kelly, do you do exercise?
Speaker 4Not really. When I was in Florida, I would go to like trails a lot and go for walks and, honestly, before we moved to Florida I would. I would go on trails all the time too and just like walk and it was honestly more to just like listen to music and clear my head than it was for the exercise. Um, but yeah, ever since we moved from Florida back here it's been like a year I just kind of stopped and I haven't been doing it for forever and I feel like I need to you guys really inspiring me to like go out and do a lot. I'll probably do it after this.
Speaker 4I feel like I've gotten into this mindset of just staying in the house all the time and constantly being on social media and it's just not good for my mental health at all. But, honestly, what brie said is kind of scaring me because I'm like god, yeah, I have always been like like underweight and like I haven't really had to like watch what I eat and I'm scared that by the time I hit like 30, like it's not going to be like that anymore and I probably should get in the habit of like exercising so I don't gain a ton of weight the habit is crucial for sure, because, like skylar is saying, it's really hard to motivate yourself.
Speaker 5Exercise is like the worst to motivate yourself, because every part of your biology is like geared to make sure you're not expending like useless energy.
Speaker 5Because that's like survival right, like true, yeah, um, we're just like programmed to avoid that, and so you have to make it like a habit so that you're not having to use willpower to do it. You just like programmed to avoid that, and so you have to make it like a habit so that you're not having to use willpower to do it. You just like have the urge to do it automatically, right?
Speaker 4I was kind of weird for me. I don't know if you guys probably won't relate to this at all, but when I was like a kid I had a really bad habit of just like finding places to like pace around in a circle and like listen music and I eventually and I would sometimes like do it on like the swing set too, and I was like really younger and I felt like the older I got people would look at me like I was crazy for doing that. So I that's kind of what started me like going on for walks on trails was like I wanted a way to do that without like looking psychotic or like I actually have a story about this is going to be like I actually have a story about this is going to be like so embarrassing.
Speaker 5When I was in elementary school, it was like a snowy day and I was just like pacing around the playground over and over and I was doing that for a while and it occurred to me like I've been out here for a long time and then I like looked up and I saw that there were no other kids out there and I had just like stayed out in the snow walking in circles for like an extra 30 minutes past recess and eventually someone was like oh, we forgot about TAP, and they like came out and like got me. That's like. That was like my elementary school experience, just like pacing around, um, and then eventually they're like oh my god, we're, we've lost a child oh, gosh, oh yeah, not only do I relate, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 4It like clears my mind, but like my mom would always get on me because she'd be like oh my god, why are you pacing? It's giving me anxiety and I was like it's taking away my anxiety.
Speaker 2Yes, I do the same thing. When I'm on like high stakes phone calls, like I will just pace all around my apartment, I'm sure, if you put a camera on me like I'm sounding calm but I look psychotic.
Speaker 5So I 100% understand what you mean you have to get out that like anxious energy. Yeah, yeah, that's what it is, I think it.
Speaker 1And now we have a very special guest joining us here Colin Wright, the writer of Reality's Last Stand. He's an evolutionary biologist and writer of Reality's Last Stand, where he examines issues at the intersection of biology and society. With his scientific background, colin brings a perspective rooted in biology, often challenging popular narratives around identity and science. Colin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 6I am really glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Navigating Political Ideologies and Trans Issues
Speaker 2It's really exciting. So, colin, you know we must have had five or six team meetings getting ready for this, maybe five or six. We talked a lot about this, you know. I guess I just I want to be really honest with you. I feel because it's like I know we've talked about this I feel so strongly that conversations with people I don't want to say on the other side, but conversations with people that have questions or a different idea about policy, it is so necessary, like this war where we are just screaming at each other and each side has its extremists, it's not serving the public policy conversation.
Speaker 2The risk I think today is, you know, having someone like you on the show. If we just sit here the whole time and find the areas where we agree on, I really worry that's going to come off as like a complete rubber stamp on your entire political project where I don't like agree with you on everything. And you know I also don't want to sit here and have like a destiny style debate with you. So does that make sense to you? Like, what kind of conversation were you thinking we should have today?
Speaker 6Yeah, no, that makes sense to me. I mean, I'm I'm totally happy to talk about areas of overlap where we agree. I think those are often good places to, you know, start to ground us, to make sure that you know we're not just sworn enemies. We have a lot of overlap in what we think should be done, how things are, and, yeah, it's also fun to explore the differences. I mean, be done how things are and, yeah, it's also fun to explore the differences. I mean that's what I like the best.
Speaker 6I used to sort of be in these clubs when I was in college, like these atheist clubs, and it was so boring to me because all we did is talk about the things we agreed on. It was just like, yeah, we're all atheists, we don't agree that God exists and all this stuff, and it's just like what's the point of having a meeting of a bunch of people just to talk about things we already agree on? So I always liked exploring the areas, like, okay, we all agree on this one thing. Well, what are the things we disagree on? And now that we know, coming from a shared sort of place, we can explore those without offending people and things like that. So I think a little bit of both. Yeah, we need to have the overlap and then show where we disagree.
Speaker 2So you know my Twitter. I assume you follow Sky as well and Taff and Kelly. Where, in your view, do you think you kind of agree with our political project? Where do you perceive the overlap as?
Speaker 6being the other people as much as I am with you, brianna. I see your stuff all the time in my feed and I think where I agree with you most, the reason I find myself constantly hitting like on your posts is because you seem to be calling out more of an ideological turn that a lot of the trans movement has made in the last decade or so. Uh, that has sort of expanded what it means to be trans into just oblivion where, like, it's just encompassing common sex, non-conformity and things like that. Um, the the existence of non-binary as a category, I think, reveals the ideological shift. I think that really shows sort of that. It is an ideological thing.
Speaker 6It's not just like, um, sort of the older we used to refer to as transsexuals, uh, for people who are understand their sex and who are just saying, like I'm really distressed and I want to take steps to appear as the opposite sex because this helps me live, move through the world comfortably, um, and that's something I have have no, no issue with. Uh, whereas now we have sort of this ideological shift that goes into a lot of pseudoscience about the sex, whether it's even real, whether it's binary or spectrum. You know brain sex versus, you know, sex of different body parts and brain body mismatches. So I think that's where I kind of saw things going wrong was with the ideological shift.
Speaker 2So I just want to pause and make sure trans people can hear this. I want to repeat back what I just heard because I see you attacked on this so often. So I correct to understand that your position is someone like me who had clinical gender dysphoria and as an adult I went to a doctor, I got a, I got certified and I went down a medical pathway to change my gender. Well, you know what I mean to live as a woman right To get HRT to blend, to live in a way that felt authentic to me. Am I correct to understand you support that? You think that that is helpful? Is that the gist of it?
Speaker 6Absolutely. I think individuals should have the right to be able to do that. When they're adults and can make these decisions and they know who they are, they tend to know what's best for them, especially if they're dealing with doctors who can walk them through this. As long as I think there should be some medical safeguarding, I don't think you should just be like I want to just get these things and then it's just like, well, here you go, and, by the way, they're all covered by insurance and there should be some level of safeguarding to make sure that people aren't going to regret what they're doing. That's why I kind of criticize the gender affirming framework, because it's really just no safeguarding.
Speaker 6I think if we could shift back to how things were, where there was a process, and I think it should be a process. But I'm not against anyone doing these things, either if it's a medical process having a really robust assessment, or if people want to pay out of pocket for things. I'm totally fine with people pursuing all sorts of cosmetic changes to their bodies. That I have no problem with.
Speaker 2To me, my main focus is on children, mainly because of the severity of the changes that we're talking about, and I'll let other people go, but I just want to say really quickly, this is where I really, really agree with you, and I think my co-hosts do as well, because, like I strongly believe that that medical safeguarding I think the community has framed all of that as being oppression and I don't think that that's true.
Speaker 2I think this is really apparent in the AGP discussion. I'm saying this not like any judgment of anyone with that, but not every single person with auto-sexuality needs to transition and is going to be served with that. I think they deserve a healthcare system where they will be able to sit down with a therapist that actually understands these concepts and can walk them through that and explore other things to find out if maybe there are things less extreme that would help them have a good life and alleviate that dysphoria. I think that, like avoiding the political problem of Chloe Coles coming along, I think that's very much in the trans public interest. So I think like, right, there, we've got a lot of overlap.
Speaker 1No, I just yeah. Yeah, colin, I don't know if you remember me I I imagine you probably don't.
Speaker 6I'm sure you have like a gen spec we met each other at gen spec, right? Okay, yes, we did. Yes, yes I can't.
Speaker 1I listened to your, your speech there, or like your presentation, um, about like the value of biology when it comes to understanding how to shape law and all these various things. They're just the fundamentals about human understanding and I mean I came up to you and thanked you for it because I had no idea how pervasive it was that at universities you weren't even being allowed to talk openly about these concepts of just basic biology, at least from my point of view. And it's like I I am so against that freedom, Like whenever I see that restriction of speech in an environment like like academia, where we should be inviting contradictory opinions. That's how you reach truth, that's how you get closer to understanding the opposite of your side, it, it. It brings me back to John Stuart Mill who makes that, who makes that statement about one who only knows their side, knows little of that.
Speaker 1And I just think again of like that is like one of my, one of my core guiding principles and it's like I think that's where I see a lot of red flags with the trans ideology stuff kind of going off the rails is exactly when you start seeing that protection of, oh, we can't have any discussion on this, it's scary, it's not going to help, it's going to, you know, attack our own side. And so I. That was really eye opening to me when you shared that at the Genspec conference and I was grateful that at least you know we're gaining some traction in the discussions from that perspective and my hope is that we'll see more of a overlap or a mutuality in having those like conversations between you know your perspective, or like the perspective of biology, and then seeing like where that can intersect. You know people that maybe have an experience that seems a little bit, you know, contradictory or seems, you know, it seems to put it at odds with some of those basic tenets.
Speaker 6Yeah, yeah, I mean, my main project has been trying to clarify the biology of sex on this issue, because that's what kind of got me out of my lab and posting on Twitter in the first place. Is people saying wrong things about sex. Me out of my lab and posting on Twitter in the first place is people saying wrong things about sex. And I feel like if we could all just get to a point where, as long as we're making sane noises about what the biology is, then we can actually talk about other aspects of transitioning and things like that.
Speaker 6I just view a lot of what's happening now as people basing transitioning on these frankly pseudoscientific ideas of you know, literally being able to change your sex through certain certain things. And I think a lot of people especially you know younger people I know talking to chloe cole and stuff like they they literally thought in their mind that they could, they could, they could change their sex literally and um. So I just think this sort of being misinformed is is where I I'm trying to focus my efforts and but colin, this is where.
Speaker 2I think my political project differs from yours respectfully, because this is a critique I have of you. I've thought about this so much this week that I understand, like I have no delusions. I am a natal male that has taken a course of like alterations to my body to appear female when I'm in public. I have no illusions about that. But what I think the gender critical conversation, the gender critical crowd, does is I think they take that simple reality, which I actually don't think as many people are confused about as you do. I disagree that most people think this and I think you hyper focus on one area of this to make a whole host of arguments. And let's also not pretend that they don't use that fact to talk about us and frame us as though we are these hostile rapist invaders trying to take over women.
Speaker 2And I think if you're like taking one scientific point and saying this is the only scientific point, well, I could do that right back to you. In fact, trans people do this all the time. What they'll say is look, we've got these self-reported studies over here that show that. You know, transition helps alleviate gender dysphoria and you can show that all day long. And the science is very, very clear on this that this will give someone like at least in the short term, a self-reported answer on the survey. And I could come back to that and say what.
Speaker 2You want to deny that this science is real. You want to pretend this doesn't exist. How dare you? I just want to be here and have a scientific conversation. I can show you research all day long that shows if you call a trans woman he and don't affirm her that this is psychologically damaging, why are you trying to pursue a false scientific agenda? So I think, like the science, there's a broad array of facts that, as public policy professionals, we have to look at, not just this one thing, and I also think it's not the entire point. The point is not are trans women biological women? That's not the question, it's do trans women deserve dignity and access to the public comments? Because so much of the public policy being argued, I have to be honest, is so shockingly similar to the segregationist policies I saw advocated by elected officials in Mississippi in the 90s when I was growing up. So I think I'm entirely happy to cede the scientific argument. What I want to get to is the public policy discussion, which is where I think it's really important.
Speaker 6Yeah, I think that's important.
Speaker 6I tend to focus on the biological aspect, mainly because I think that it is sort of used as a premise for, you know, everything seems to flow from that initial premise of sort of the sex spectrum and negating the sex binary.
Debating Ethical Trans Healthcare Practices
Speaker 6But, yeah, I do agree that at some point the real discussion is likeating the sex binary. But, yeah, I do agree that at some point the real discussion is like, well, okay, well, what do we do about it in public policy and things like that? That's where the sort of rubber meets the road and this is where I like to distinguish between, you know, biological sex, and clearly sex is also a legal category that we've placed around it. And so, you know, how do we correlate biological sex to legal sex and maybe things like what counts as being a woman or a female for sake of sport, and I'm not necessarily under the impression that they should all be the same, even if there should be massive, massive overlap between them all. I think, yeah, there are interesting things around the edges of where we can say where can exceptions be made, and I think those are areas we should talk about potentially.
Speaker 6And I'm not going to claim I have all of the answers to, and just like a, here's a perfect thing. I think sometimes we have to sort of deal with a situation that's sort of like the perfect thing. I think sometimes we have to sort of deal with a situation that's sort of like the best, the least bad out situation, because I don't think there's necessarily a like a silver bullet solution to a lot of things, but I think some some solutions or proposed solutions are better or worse than others. So yeah, I'm happy to talk about any of those things for sure.
Speaker 2I will let my other co-hosts speak out any of those things.
Speaker 5For sure I won't let my other co-hosts speak. Well, yeah, this is something that I talked about before you got in here, but my biggest worry was that we would end up agreeing on like too much in the discussion, because I am someone who has been like raising flags in the trans community for years about some of the shoddy science around, specifically HRT for minors, and so I've been in like heated debates about this and every time I've been like shut down, totally shut down, by the trans community. It's very frustrating because I feel like my community, and especially the Democrats, have sort of decided that they're going to die on this hill and that the science doesn't even need to be like explored more, like it's just settled, there's no more debate, and you know, I don't think that's ultimately a message that's resonating with people. I think that parents really do see these detransitioners and they really do care that affects them, and then they go and vote and at the end of the day, I feel like I'm getting like deeply affected by this because people who claim to represent me you know, in politics the left are sort of failing to actually do their job of rigorously exploring what reality is, rather than kind of pretending what they'd like it to be. So that's always been a frustration for me, I think.
Speaker 5At the same time, I think that I can imagine there being opportunities for minors to transition in the same way that, like you know, I think I have a very similar perspective on adult transition to you. But I think for minors, I think that a huge problem is just the ability to actually conceptualize what they're doing and to properly consent to it. And to the extent that the studies kind of show like null results, there are like outliers within those studies who show positive results. So I think that there's maybe an opportunity for a rigorous gatekeeping process, something where medical professionals who are free from the political bias of you know rubber stamping HRT prescriptions, are allowed to truly interrogate like is this person a good candidate? And I don't know what age that might be? Like 16 is something that gets thrown around a lot. As far as like when that might be appropriate. That seems like plausible to me. I wonder you, as the expert on all this stuff, the biology, if you think that's possible or if you think it's just too fraught to potentially go down that road.
Speaker 6It's really difficult because we can see that the existence of people who are adults and who've transitioned and who are happy with their transition and remain transitioned for their entire lives.
Speaker 6I think a lot of people can say that this person would have probably benefited if they could maybe pass more if they had been able to transition at a younger age, before they got these differences from puberty. I think that is a true statement, but the difficulty is, is that just because some of these people would have benefited, this this sort of sets the stage for people to want to go back and say, like, well, how can we identify these people before puberty, at a young age, in order, so we can make sure that we get those people? But the difficulty is is that, while it's easy to look back in hindsight to say that, like you know, oh, I'm somebody who would have benefited from this it's really, really difficult and really, really inaccurate to have a, you know, a pool of 11, 12 year olds and be able to predict with really, really high accuracy which ones are going to be those ones that are happy with it through the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2Do you really think so, colin, because if you go look at the DSM standards, like it's been lowered to two out of six criteria.
Speaker 2Two out of six, which is just insane to me and like if you go read the standards from 1998, we'll put it in the show notes. It was such a higher standard. So I actually think like we do know a lot about what boys that want to be girls look like. Like there are case studies of a very typical transsexual like journey and I do imagine that if you get the politics out of this like I do think there's a way to go and do really good studies and move back to these older standards and start like someone that has two out of six criteria. I do not support them transitioning as a minor. If someone's got six out of six and they're going through a major depressive episode and they have an eating disorder because they're trying to make themselves thin, because they're terrified of, like you know, masculinizing and you know they've got suicidal ideation, I think symptomology like indicates treatment and to me that is a much stronger argument for intervention at that point.
Speaker 6Yeah, I mean, it depends where we want to draw a line on. You know, how much bycatch collateral damage are we willing to accept in here? How many, how many kids are we willing to unnecessarily and wrongfully transition that would make them sterile, in order to capture all the individuals who would receive a benefit? And how much is the harm that's done to those who are done wrongfully? How much is that harm offset by the benefits that is done by those who go through it and end up happy with it?
Speaker 2And then there's the opposite argument, like how many trans children becoming someone who cannot pass and are going to have really difficult lives? What human cost of that is okay? How many trans children like I went to rehab I have no idea how I didn't die, um, from all the drugs I took how many kids with like a major depressive episode that commit suicide, like leela al? How many of those kids are we willing to loss? And like, I think some of the framing I find so frustrating is where we always talk about, like the cis children that may not get the perfect outcome that they want as the focus, and the trans lives are kind of talked about like they're disposable and it feels really dehumanizing to me if that makes sense.
Speaker 5Well, I feel like, if anything at least, in the trans community the focus is fully like on the trans kids and it's like very rare for those detransitioners to even enter into the conversation. I do think within the medical profession there's a very like natural lean or inclination towards not taking an intervention, if you can potentially avoid that, and we're talking about like false positives and false negatives. I mean, if the doctor is going to prescribe HRT, they're taking on like a big responsibility, I think, ethically, for the results of that. And so if you do get these detransitioners, that seems to be really bad in a way that, like you know, adults, they can take on all of that moral, ethical responsibility, or at least most of it themselves. And so with kids it's it's a huge, hugely different environment.
Speaker 4Do you not think like a huge piece of it might be how some of these therapists that, in my opinion, are extremely underqualified and barely have any experience borderline, don't even have a are able to diagnose these kids with gender dysphoria, when I feel like it should be left up to, probably more like psychiatrists and people that have a little more experience?
Speaker 6Yeah, well, I think the main issue is with the gender affirming model of care that is, you know, basically doesn't have these safeguards. It's essentially, you know, basically doesn't have these safeguards. It's, it's essentially, you know, if the kid identifies as a certain way, then that's, that's how they identify. There's there's not really a lot of pushback that can happen with respect to someone making these certain claims. And you know we do have an issue in the, in the culture too, because we have, if you look at the medical community, it is especially in trans medicine. It's filled with gender affirming practitioners. It's also in the culture. It's in the water, as you know, to whatever degree it can be called a social contagion just adopting these trans identities because of the ideological shift that we've experienced, no-transcript lives.
Speaker 6But you can't see how happy they would been if, say, they didn't, if they maybe would have desisted, because there is this, this sort of inertia that a social transition has, puberty blockers, has cross sex hormones. They kind of lock people in, uh, make them more difficult for people to desist, and so it's hard to control for that. To know that, you know, maybe they would have been happy either way and you know, all else being equal, if they would have been happy without transitioning. Well, now that at least they have their, uh, their fertility in this other scenario too. So it's, it's, it's really difficult. I mean, it's so difficult with kids. That's why my personal view is that we shouldn't be doing puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to adolescents, and it should be reserved for people who are 18 or older.
Speaker 2But even they still deserve. Really, you would completely ban it for all, even MTFs, even though they have a much lower issue rate.
Speaker 6I would. I would have it for people who turn 18. And even when you're 18, you deserve to have actual assessments. It shouldn't just be gender affirming A total ban.
Speaker 2For a total ban on this. 100%, no exceptions. Parents do not have the right to. They've got a child. Major depressive episode, suicidal ideation, has been saying they want to be a girl since they're three, they hit puberty, they're terrified, their body is becoming like a linebacker. You want a total ban in that case for minors.
Speaker 6I do I don't think, think the evidence is in there that shows that this is a reliable will reliably improve their lives in the long run.
Speaker 4We've got Kelly and Telf here today. They seem pretty happy life. I don't I don't see myself ever detransitioning. But you know I I'd be lying if I didn't say, like a piece to me sometimes things, wow, if I wasn't given testosterone blockers at 15, like would I have grown out of it by the time I was 18? I don't know, probably not in my opinion, but how much of that is because I was on those blockers and because I'm on estrogen now and because I'm post-op like I, I don't know how my mind has been affected because of those things, even though I do feel like I have a very happy, successful life now.
Speaker 4So yeah, but it's a catch 22 for me too, because then I also think, well, what if it it didn't like go away and I still felt that way into my adulthood and then I would have developed even more and I would have passed less. And and unfortunately it just kind of seems like in this society, the more you pass, the better you're treated, the more respect you get. And even now when I feel like I somewhat pass, I feel like I still get treated like shit and judged for how I look. So I can only imagine how much worse it would be if I had to develop more. So it just sucks because I don't really know what the answer is, because there's no magical test to it, like tell if you're trans or not, and I really wish there was, because I feel like it would like solve so many of these issues.
Speaker 6Yeah, so I don't I don't deny that there's individuals who do benefit in the longterm, like I, the I just have. There's an issue with pointing to individuals and saying, well, what about this person you would have? You would have told them they couldn't. It's like, well, if we're talking about like a medical protocol and what we do, we can't just base it on. You know, someone I know who would have benefited from it. It has to be there has to be good evidence of long term outcomes, but it feels like there's a double standard that you're applying here where trans child is just acceptable, losses meet for the machine.
Speaker 2Like I feel like I don't mean to be emotional, but it's really hard to hear the way people talk about us, like our lives don't matter. And you know, I can point to 20 drugs right now that went through and got to market because there was a lot of money in there for a um, for a pharmaceutical company in bringing that to market. Where the science showed the efficacy was not so great oh, the one for female arousal to increase, that it's a statistical blip. This is not a great drug. It's amazing it went to market. But we look at that and like we weigh those outcomes like this is going to help more people than it hurts and those drugs come to market.
Speaker 2There are all kinds of things in medicine that have much more shaky efficacy than gender-affirming medicine. So I feel like, rather than going to this extremist solution that takes those options out of parents' hands, what I think the right solution is. I fully agree with you, colin. Wpath. Getting radicalized in the last 10 years is the worst thing that has ever happened to my community. It is terrible. You're 100% right. That's a bunch of fringe leftists with crazy ideas. This expansion of giving surgery to people with non-binary. I have looked up and down for any justification that giving a biological male that thinks they're non-binary, breast implants and a full beard and letting them go on estrogen becoming this thing in the middle leads to any good healthcare outcome which our tax dollars pay for. I don't think this science exists yet. The DSM has been rewritten to encourage that. So it seems to me that, rather than going to this government overreach solution, the answer lies in looking at those standards. I think WPATH should be the central public policy battlefield.
Speaker 6Just from what I've seen, I don't think that there is really convincing evidence that we can reliably know which kids are going to have long-term benefit of these interventions. So that's why I draw a line right there and I do have one, I guess. Area of pushback, I would say, is I personally tend to avoid and this is kind of a controversial area, but I've talked to Lior Sapir a lot about this there's a tendency to use the word trans kids and refer to these people as something that they are. They're like this is a trans kid, as something very distinct from a kid who isn't trans. I tend to favor using the word trans or the modifier trans to mean you know, someone who's actually taken steps to like transition, because I think this labeling kids really young as trans is sort of sets them apart from other kids where I think you know they should. Maybe they're flagged as you know, potentially someone who will transition later in life, but it's again, it's impossible to know which of those kids are going to be will become that category of trans.
Speaker 2But don't you see how that argument then continues to people like me? Because then you've got TERF, twitter, which calls me a trans identified male. I'm a natal male, that's just a fact. But I'm a trans woman. That's what trans women call ourselves Like.
Speaker 2The game here is to frame me as male, to demean me and to push a public policy discussion where I'm segregated from society. So I don't have an issue with doing that with children. It's just like you have to think about where the next step is, if that makes sense to you. But I want to come back to this, like I really again, I'd love an answer on this. Why, to you Like, let's say I'll be very generous and say it is, five trans kids out of 100 regret it.
Speaker 2It's not that, as best as I can tell, like male to female trans kids, the female to male, I want to get them just out of the cohort completely. Testosterone is so powerful, you can wait till later. But why is that five children who may regret it, which is a very high number, more important than the 95 that are going to feel like their lives are better? Because I think that number, if you reversed it, how many of those children are going to feel like their lives are worse from not transitioning. Like why does one count? Why do trans lives not matter and the cis lives do? That's what I don't understand.
Speaker 6Well, I think all lives matter, but, yeah, I don't think we have good data to suggest what the desistance rates actually are at the moment. I mean, we have so much loss to follow up from all the studies that are performed. If we had an accurate assessment, I think, if we could have really clear data and I know the Manhattan Institute has a lot of data that they've been able to purchase and they're working through making as high as more accurate reports as we can possibly do on this sure uh, to find out what those rates are I will say it's 49 and 51.
Speaker 2Okay, 49 kids desist and regret. 51 trans kids feel like it benefited them. Why, in that scenario, would the trans kids not matter and the cis kids would?
Speaker 5that's, that's what I don't understand, interpret, interpret a little bit with this, I think, what I'm hearing, colin, and like correct me if I'm hearing this incorrectly.
Speaker 5It seems like right now we just don't have strong evidence for any meaningful positive effect within trans kids. So we've got like surveys, survey data, we've got some studies that are showing like very small effects that are beneficial, um, and so we're hearing this rhetoric, like even from rihanna you, where you're talking about like depressive episodes and suicide. We don't have evidence that, like hrt lowers suicide risk in trans kids. We don't have that evidence. And we do have evidence that HRT causes sterilization and causes irreversible body changes and all of that is very well understood, but the benefit is very, you know, it's kind of nebulous, it's hard to pinpoint and it's for so many methodological reasons. It seems like when you're given that opportunity all these kids who maybe will benefit from transition and then you're talking about like this large 49% like desistance rate, it seems like the responsibility of the medical provider is to not intervene and potentially make something worse. I don't know if that's like a fair assessment, colin, feel free to add on to that, but I think that's what I'm hearing from you.
Speaker 6Yeah, I mean it has to do with the severity of the interventions. I mean we're gonna have, you know, wrongfully sterilize. You know half of the people who are going through this, you know this is that's a major, major thing. These are totally irreversible. And while I understand that, going through puberty for someone who's eventually going to, you know, consistently identify as trans is also potentially irreversible. I mean there are people who are trans, who do pursue, you know, certain surgeries and hormones that do change parts of their body.
Speaker 6It's more difficult, I will admit it's. It's not that it's easy to be a trans woman and it's going to be an easy time and it's just as good. Trying to make cosmetic changes after the fact, like that's clearly it's really difficult. But I would say that if we're going to have some sort of intervention, we have to have a pretty reliable evidence that this is going to be overwhelmingly beneficial rather than harmful and permanent changes to children mixed with sterilization. That's just a really hard hump to get over.
Speaker 6To say, you know, pull the. You say, yes, we should be doing this to kids. I mean it's again, it's one of those situations that it's the least bad situation because, you know, until we have a better idea of desistance rates. And you know, if we could have, if we, if we could have a crystal ball where we could know which kids are never going to regret it from a very early age. You know, that's something I'd be open to. I'd say, okay, if we can know for sure. But we, we, we can't, and right now we really have no really good idea of what the level of desistence rates, especially because of the ideological shift we've recently experienced.
Speaker 2Would you admit that practically, pragmatically let's say tomorrow you get your way? President Trump takes you up, like you asked him to, on Twitter to put you in charge of this policy? You enact a total ban on children transitioning. Would you acknowledge that the very first thing they are going to do is to go on like estrogens not difficult to synthesize and antiandrogens you're not going to get drugged, sniffing dogs to find antiandrogens you would admit that, just like abortion and women going into back alleys, the first thing that's going to happen is those kids are going to turn to Dr Fortune and they're going to start getting their health care online, and there's not going to be an endocrinologist. There's not going to be anyone there to put any medical safeguarding in place, something you and I both agree on. You will agree that those kids are still going to experiment medically. There's just not going to be a provider in the mix, right?
Speaker 6Yeah, I mean, I imagine some people will resort to doing extreme things, for sure, but I don't think we should make our policy, you know, around the fact of what people are going to do on their own or what they might have access to. I think we need to have evidence-based policy first and foremost, and hopefully we can get those people uh other care that they might need so that they wouldn't maybe pursue these other, these other avenues, and I think we need to have a grandfather clause as well I don't think it's like yeah, to be honest, well, I mean not to disagree with you, brie, but like no, I mean it's kind of like saying you know like, oh well, rapists are, are gonna rape anyway, so like why make it illegal?
Risks of Child Transition Narratives
Speaker 4it's because it's like you know, there are always going to be people who are going to go against the law or go to extreme measures to to do certain things. But I get like it's different when we're talking in the aspect of health care. But it's like I I just think this conversation kind of sucks because know more kids are going to do those extreme things, because we've just we've made the whole trans topic so public and it's being discussed in schools and it's all over the media now and I just feel like trans visibility movement has almost harmed us for it, because now it's it's just now.
Speaker 4More kids like I said like a million times it used to be a kid would like say they feel like a girl if they were a little boy and now they're just going up to their parents or teacher and saying, oh, I'm trans, because they know what that is now and it's like taught to them.
Speaker 5So I don't know, I feel like it's almost just kind of like fucked us over in a way and kelly even on that like because these kids are hearing this rhetoric like you were going to kill yourself unless you transition right, and I told my parents that I thought I would kill myself when, truly, I don't know if I would have killed myself if I didn't go on HRT.
Speaker 4But a huge reason my conservative parents let me go on HRT is because I told them that and, truly, if they still told me, no, I don't think I would have been so. So I don't think I have the ability to kill myself. I just want to know yeah, I mean so much, yeah, is that going to like make other kids just say these things so they can get what they want? You know what I mean? Like not like saying you, but I'm just saying like the trans community as a whole, like pushing that. It's almost like telling kids to say these things in order to get what they want, in a way, or telling these kids that like, if their parents say no, then you do need to go on 4chan and get whatever HRT you can.
Speaker 2I just want to clarify I do not support going on 4chan, just to be clear.
Speaker 5I'm just saying it's going to happen, so because the conversation has become so elevated and so extreme. We have, like you know, if we're worried about kids going on 4chan I think that also probably contributes to that this feeling that like, oh my God, you know, the science is settled If I don't start HRT I'm, you know, I'm dead, I'm gone. And like earlier you were talking about kind of understanding transition retroactively and like, like Kelly, I don't necessarily know if it would have been like the worst thing if I never transitioned. Like you know, I'm sort of I recognize that I'm an outlier in this. I always, you know, put that on the table, but I think I probably would have been okay, not transitioning, um, and you know, just living as kind of like AGP man, and so I mean, it's like hard to acknowledge and I think that, like, if I had not transitioned, I would have always had this burning feeling of like oh, if I just transition, everything will be like great in my life. But I think if I had like not transitioned in a hypothetical world where I also know where I end up, having transitioned, um, and I would have been able to like say to that curiosity and just say like okay, um, and I would have been able to like state that curiosity and just say like, okay, that's how I would feel psychologically, then I think I could probably not transition and be okay.
Speaker 5Now, unfortunately, we don't have the ability to like transfer information between timelines, um, but I do feel like so much of my transition, like you know candidly calling you don't know this, but I transitioned came out when I was like 14. So I transitioned very early and a lot of the rhetoric that I was hearing from doctors was, like you know, you just need to do this and like it'll fix pretty much everything in your life. Um, that turned out not to be the case. Now would I say transition had like bad effects for me. No, not necessarily. Like I would say it's overall, maybe like a slight positive, but it also costs a lot.
Youth Suicide Risk in Transition Debate
Speaker 6So I don't think, even in my case, I don't think it's like a clear-cut, um, you know, positive or negative example yeah, I'll raise one thing too is that has to do with sort of the social contagion of suicide, and if you look, I think it's GLAAD and even the ACLU and other sort of human, the human rights campaign.
Speaker 6They used to issue these documents of how to talk about suicide exogenous event, like a legislation or something like that, because suicide is an enormously complex thing and if people are saying that like, oh, these people committed suicide because of this one thing over here, because of the legislation, this sort of given the social contagion of suicide makes people more likely to commit suicide when certain laws are passed. And we have this, this complete flip of the narrative now, where you have hrc, you have glad who are talking specifically about like you know what to do if you're feeling suicidal because of this new, you know law being passed, and this is just completely counter to what they're doing. And so, yeah, there's there's a suggestion that kids who you know if they're going to the black market to get you know diy, hrt and stuff because they're so concerned that they're gonna commit suicide, like some of that is because of I think it was the narrative around suicide and how it's become seen as almost like a reasonable thing to do, or just like an inevitable outcome of not receiving these things.
Speaker 2So so I fully agree with you and I want to see the conversation like I really hope I'm not coming across here as the person that's like all gas and no brakes, with gender transition is not my intention and I fully agree with you. These stories of saying your kids automatically going to kill themselves utterly unhelpful. We need to stop that. Today I guess it's just like when I'm thinking about the public policy that we have to develop. It's really hard if you're saying like don't talk about the suicidal ideation. Like a kid getting a gun or like Lila Alcorn throwing themselves in front of an 18-wheeler. That's not the only way that these like self-destructive tendencies exhibit themselves. It's with sexually risky behavior. I mean, how many trans women have AIDS, colin? You've published these stories over at Reality's Last Stand. Risky sexual behavior, eating disorders, drug addiction, depression. Like a kid killing themselves is not the only way that this is expressed and I think it's not. If I'm saying like the risk of DIY stuff, that's not to like, come there and scare monger, it's because I'm trying to ask everyone here to consider if we're going after the right target. What all of us I'm hearing here want today is we want A. All of us here. We want questions to be able to be raised. We want children to get the message that if they're transitioned like they may not, it's not as catastrophic as the worst scenario is telling you, and we want them to be able to explore options.
Speaker 2I think all of us want the activists out of trans health care today and I think all of us want to raise those standards out of trans healthcare today, and I think all of us want to raise those standards. I think the difference that I'm hearing is what the correct vehicle is to explore those changes that all of us agree on, and I just disagree that a total ban is the way to go. I think, looking at the medical practitioners and the ultra low, politicized standards, that just pragmatically makes sense to me, because the diy stuff is so easy to access today and I hand to god, I can think of no way to regulate this. I I can't like cryptocurrency. You're not going to make cryptocurrency go away. You can't intercept this stuff at the border. I mean, how are you going to stop this from happening? Like, pragmatically, I can't think of a way well it's a back.
Speaker 6I'm for a total ban on, you know, on minors, but I don't think that means necessarily mean I'm for like a total ban on, you know these types of procedures completely for for adults, and I think 18 is. I mean, I remember when I was 18, that's still pretty damn young. I don't think saying that I'm for a total ban, you know at a certain age cohort, but yeah.
Speaker 2What would that be? Would that be 18 or 25?
Speaker 6It'd be 18.
Speaker 4Okay, I'm curious do you know, have those suicide numbers gone up? Because I just wonder, if they have, like, how much of this has, how much of it has to do with, you know, like kids just being exposed to the, the idea of transition being possible. You know, because like not to like reiterate my point, but I just feel like we gained so much more when people weren't aware that this was possible and it was only something they did when they knew they had to do it and it was the last resort. So when you know we tell kids at like six, seven years old that like, oh, you can transition, this is possible for some people be accepting it, it almost like tells them, oh, I need to do this. And it almost like makes those suicidal ideations and thoughts like come a lot more often than they are supposed to. What?
Speaker 6do you think? Yeah, so from what I've seen suicide rates, you know they've been going up across the board, just in general for younger people. But this is, you know, correlates with their general increase in mental health issues for young people and it's really difficult to disentangle Is it because they're identifying as trans or are they? Do they have mental health issues before? That sort of causes them to identify as trans later it's kind of hard to know where the causal factors lie. I think there has been an increase in sort of suicidal ideation, but the actual rates of suicide I don't think have gone up. Specifically, you know, when you control for things like comorbidities and mental health issues and things like that.
Speaker 2But social anxiety we know that's skyrocketing. I'm pretty sure, like drug addiction rates, they are going up, you know I mean across the board. So I think it would probably be reasonable to expect a lot of that is happening for trans people as well.
Speaker 6Yeah, it depends if it's because they're trans or is it because of the co-occurring mental health issues. Is it just a result of the mental health things or is it in need for their transition?
Speaker 2Yeah, and that's why I want to get these healthcare providers there. I mean something you've talked about a lot on Reality's Last Stand which I had never thought about is this tie between autism and transition. And I used to just think about this like, oh, that's just a trans girl with autism. And I today think like something fundamental like these girls are. You know, I don't mean this in a bad way, they're just different than I am, like their motivations are different, their culture is different, the way. They're just different than I am. Their motivations are different, their culture is different, the way they behave is different.
Speaker 2I think we would be so served by unpacking those comorbidities and giving everyone more space to explore that stuff. I think one of the most dangerous aspects of the activists kind of getting the reins to health care is there's not a willingness. There's a system that transition and it's going to fix all your problems rather than going okay, you've got social anxiety disorder to the point where you can't go outside May, we need to work on this at the same time, or a drug addiction at the same time, like. I just think, like the comorbidities, you can't transition if it's not from a place of stability. Right, it's going to be the hardest thing you've ever done, and I think that we're just serving people into the machine, as is evidenced by the way the community behaves, which is just deranged a lot of the time yeah, have you heard of minority?
Speaker 6minority stress hypothesis, brianna?
Speaker 2uh, I have.
Speaker 6Yes, but tell, tell our viewers what this is so it's commonly used rather than sort of people who have a lot of social anxiety and whatever, um, you know, being more likely to be drawn to the sort of ideologies or something of the, the modern trans movement. It tends to view it to the sort of ideologies or something of the the the modern trans movement. It tends to view it just the opposite of views all of the distress, everything through the lens of, oh, it's because society is treating them poorly because they're trans and then, oh, if they only transition, then, like, all of these things would be alleviated. I mean, even Jack Turpin even said that the high autism rates among uh people who are trans, uh, is part of the whole minority stress type of thing.
Speaker 6It's not really autism, it's, I mean it's, it's, it's really an all, it's, it's well, it's kind of this, this idea that is completely unfalsifiable because it's, you know, you can't test it. It explains everything. Therefore, it explains nothing. Um, and any tests of the hypothesis have just not shown anything to be true. Or if they have, it's through sort of a wonky interpretation of the data. It's something Lior has written about on my sub-stack before.
Speaker 1Wow, colin, I have a question for you that is really leaning into your biology background, just because I really I like how you approach it with that.
Speaker 1So I also am very similar to Taff in that I see the typology framework as useful or helpful for me, and when I made decisions about my transition, I identify with the auto-sexual type.
Speaker 1That's something that I have experience with and I think was directly kind of, you know, feeding into my gender dysphoria and what were some of the motivators for my transition.
Speaker 1And I was not a child transitioner, I transitioned at 25.
Sexuality Evolution and Political Pragmatism
Speaker 1I just sort of won the genetic lottery in a way and was able to make this sort of work, and I do appreciate the fact that I had time to help come to my conclusions and my decision making is. I feel like it's given me more, a lot more confidence in just kind of how to view transition as a solution for me to move forward and live a better life and rather than like changing my sex or anything like that. And so I guess what I, what I want to go with is, when it comes to sexual orientation and sexuality, I think like what I've gained, or what I've seen, is that most consensus seems to be. It's a process that happens in utero, but I want to hear from you about how that process, sort of how you understand it to work and, to that point, is there any sort of evolutionary advantage to experience attraction to yourself or, in my case, attraction to yourself as the opposite sex, and like what, what, why, what could that happen from, like an evolutionary standpoint?
Speaker 6Oh, that's interesting. So from what I know, the literature on the development of sexuality is something that is done in utero. There's also somewhat of a genetic component, but it's kind of the wiring of your brain because there's surges of testosterone at different levels in utero that males will experience, that females won't. And we know that if you survey a bunch of people who are lesbians, you do brain scans on them. Their brains are slightly more androgenized, which means have responded to higher levels of testosterone. They have sort of these finger digit ratios that exemplify sort of higher levels of testosterone.
Speaker 6Women who have polycystic ovary syndrome and their bodies are producing more levels of testosterone. They tend to be not all of them, but they tend to be more same-sex attracted as well. So you know, hormone exposure does have a developmental role in who people are attracted to. It's kind of different, I think. Androgenization, sorry, predicts, you know, being attracted to women, to the female body type, but it's not exactly the same with males. It's not, you know they're. You know, being sort of feminized or non-androgenized makes you more likely to be gay, Although I think it is a little bit, but it's not quite as clear cut as just like direct exposures to androgens makes people more likely to be attracted to females in development. So, yeah, so it's. It appears to be an innate, innate feature, just your sexuality, that you will eventually be. It's interesting to think about whether something like AGP is its own unique sexuality. That's sort of exists on the spectrum of, you know, being straight or being gay. It might be something else going on there. I mean, I've known that there have been some brain scan studies where there's an area in the brain I'm terrible with like names of the brain, but my friend Sam Stagg has reviewed a lot of these studies and it's an area of the brain that has to do with like self-perception and things like that, and that tends to be larger in individuals who are like the AGP, the heterosexual, transsexual cohort. Oh, really, that's so interesting. Yeah, it's the same area in the brain. It's the same area in the brain that has to do with, like people who are anorexic. It's sort of you know, they they see themselves as one way, but they they feel some other way and it's it's really interesting. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of what it's. It's what you might expect. You know, it's kind of like a Holy crap. Like this makes sense in a, in a developmental sense.
Speaker 6Um, as far as like an evolutionary explanation for AGP, you know, I'm not sure if I could come up with one. It's so rare that it's in the realm of. You know. Variation is out there. There are some. Not every trait can be, you know, coughed up to an adaptationist view. Some traits are just kind of they exist in the population because they're correlated with other traits. I'm not convinced that it is even an adaptive trait or how exactly that could be adaptive. I mean, I'd have to think about it to come up with a scenario, but it would be. Uh, I have to work on it and to come up with a reliable thing that made sense I don't have like crazy theories on that for sure, but we can chat about those if you want yeah, well, just on that.
Speaker 5I mean, for most of human history, having agp does not necessarily entail like a medical transition or sterilization, because you don't have access to these hormones. So it's not necessarily something that we'd expect to be like strongly selected against, especially if agps are also historically having sex with women. So, yeah, it seems like plausible to me that it can exist in that evolutionary context.
Speaker 1So, yeah, so is it one further extension to that is I've seen some people say that your sexuality kind of like, I guess, in utero is like the basis of it, but then it is kind of continuously hardwiring up until puberty. What are your thoughts on that? Does it continue through like early childhood? Is there any possibility for environmental mechanisms to, you know, shape that further, or is it really more in utero?
Speaker 6I mean there's always going to be some environmental play that goes on. You know, before you know puberty and things like that, before people are beginning to be sexually active, before they're attracted to anyone you know, consciously or anything, it tends to be exhibited in just sex non-conforming behavior, like you'll get sort of more masculine behaving girls and more feminine behaving boys. That's not to say that every, every masculine girl or feminine boy is going to grow up to be gay, but they by and large do, you know a large proportion of them will, and so but it isn't until you know, they get to reach puberty and they start, you know they're going to start activating that. That sex nonconformity extends itself to the realm of sexuality, where they're also sex nonconforming in their sexual preferences. Um, so that's that's kind of how it tends to manifest, uh, through development. It's just sex nonconformity and then that just sort of extends to their sexual preferences later on.
Speaker 1Right, so you can see it in the behavior. Yes, yeah, that's fascinating, thank you. So I have a question.
Speaker 2How politically like just getting like one of my things is I try to be very pragmatic. Like, where do we go? I'm very much a ABC project manager. How do we get down the list? And I think very often, like with this stuff, we tend to talk about our ideals and we don't really talk about how we get there.
Speaker 2So, like, when it comes to taming the extremism of the trans movement, I've got a plan right. It's doll cast as part of this. Like bring more moderate viewpoints out there. Dedicate more of my you know media public presence to getting moderate perspectives out there. And work working on Washington Post piece right now on this like to present a different side so that trans women don't only have to go into this fringe left community. Right, that's my plan to turn down the conversation. I'm looking for a place to go with with people to do that, with me Over on your side. Like I want to be clear I don't think, like you're against us. I do think your audience, generally speaking, has you know more people that are critical of trans people than say I do. So, like what concretely, or what role do you think you have to kind of get the conversation to be more productive, or do you think you don't have a role?
Speaker 6No, I have a role. I mean, that's what I've been trying to do by highlighting. I've written articles in the Wall Street Journal about the dangerous denial of sex and sort of issues with gender ideology more broadly. I've been trying to just raise awareness of the problems that I see out there, because the first step was to sort of this consciousness raising effort. I think that has largely been successful and consciousness has been raised quite a bit.
Speaker 6The next step had been sort of okay, well, now that people know the issues that are going on, well, what do we do? What are the issues? How is this happening? Oh, we'll look at WPATH. Oh, oh, look at all these organizations that have been essentially captured, uh, by this, this certain ideology that is, you know, producing all the stuff, refusing to self. You know, analyze their own, their own biases and try to get people who are in these organizations, who we know through a lot of emails that they they feel like they're being muzzled behind the scenes. So try to get uh people to be able to speak, speak up and actually, you know, hold the activist feet to the fire about evidence based medicine in these areas, so that they can sure, we can actually look at evidence rather than just ideology Do you not?
Speaker 2Would you not agree that there's a political project out there to basically that goes the other way? Like you can see that gender criticals have their own extremist policy project right? So I guess my question is what role do you think you have? What concrete actionable steps do you? How do we get to? I understand like I agree with your entire mission there for the trans side Over on the gender critical side what are the steps? You think people like you that do believe in dignity for trans people, what would your approach be to kind of getting them to go come on, like let's not talk about a total ban here, there's no need to dehumanize people, like we all need, like respect here. What role do you think you have to play in calming that down?
Speaker 6Yeah, I mean I try to do that a lot. I mean I get attacked from the GC ultras that's what they're calling themselves a lot now, and I've had to go on massive blocking sprees because I did like a podcast with Julia Malott and then they just post pictures. It's just like oh, colin and his pet trunes or whatever they just go. I'm friends with sarah higdon and then I just get things. It's like oh, like colin is, is this catching them all like pokemon? It's just ridiculous. And they just they think that, yeah, no, they go hard against me and I just try to say, no, these are, these are people who are my friends and I treat them as individuals, because that's how I treat all my friends.
Speaker 6I just try to, I guess, live as the example of someone who shows people dignity based on being an individual, and I hope others do the same. And if I see people attacking a trans woman just because they're trans or something out in public, I push back against that. Because they're trans or something out in public, I push back against that. I mean I think I try to shame people on that side too, because I don't think we should be, you know, shaming anyone for just expressing themselves in the public and, you know, presenting themselves as the opposite sex or whatever. I mean I just yeah. I just I just treat people as individuals and I'm. I have a lot of trans friends. I love them all and I don't yeah yeah, I consider you a friend.
Speaker 2I do. I know it's gonna piss people off, but I like you a lot. No, I carry.
Speaker 6So it's less of a public policy solution and more yeah, I don't know if it can be done with policy, it's. I mean, people can be assholes.
Speaker 2I don't know how you legislate against assholes, it's just well, I mean, but it's the, the, the w path, like. That's why it comes back to me like what are the standards that we are applying to this? That's like a very concrete public policy play that I want to do there. So, um, I don't know, I think there's a I. I just I wish there was a way to, because I find it so consistently frustrating. Because there are reasonable TERFs and gender criticals. I talk to them every day and they're like look, they're exactly like you. They're like I don't want trans women in sports. I have no issue with someone like getting married and having a life and using the bathroom, right. That's just a different thing. I'm talking about these. You know I don't want to see a penis in a locker room and I really wish there was a space to elevate those voices at the public policy level, because I think if people like me are sitting down with people like you and them, I think that's where this insanity ends, in my view.
Speaker 6I agree. That's why I like to come on shows like this and I'll still continue talking to trans people on their shows and try to just be the example, I guess best I can.
Speaker 5Right, so hard to do, but I think that's like so necessary that some people are able to do that just to turn down the temperature and actually get to like a more reasonable conversation, cause like, at the end of the day, like maybe I, you know, I do think that there should be some pathway for adolescent transition, you know, if it's like 16 with rigorous standards.
Speaker 5But I've like only come to that conclusion through analyzing and like raising flags about the evidence, and a lot of trans people are not willing to like have that conversation with me whatsoever because I'm like a lot of this evidence is kind of shaky, like maybe we need to reevaluate and do all these things, and they just like write me off as like a crazy person. And then I've also tried to talk to like gender critical and turfy people and I've had them just like totally be like you know it's cliche, but like just very like hateful, just like totally writing me off because of my identity and that's frustrating because I feel like just no one is being benefited from this and I really it like breaks my heart to hear these like detransition stories and to see how people are failed by doctors and I just don't want that to happen and, at the same time, I want for, like doctors, to be able to make actual decisions based on evidence, and it feels like there's so little opportunity to just talk to reasonable people who agree with that.
Challenges in Trans Medical Safeguarding
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, Do you think WPath needs to? Just do you think we need to have people in the middle building a new WPath? Because that's almost where I am. I mean, your own organization has written plenty about the WPath files when they came out Extremely disturbing stuff. And you know, I remember when I transitioned on the Benjamins and I remember when WPath started and I was like, oh, this is a really good thing, this is going to standardize this and pursue more science, and I think it's unfortunately true that it's a fringe left progressive organization that is more about advocacy for a leftist point of view than it is pursuing science. I mean, do you think that just needs to be rebooted? Do you think, like it needs to be ignored? Like what is the process to get better medical safeguarding in the loop again? It's a good question.
Speaker 6Yeah, I think WPATH is a lost cause. Honestly, I don't see a pathway to reform, just given how, I mean from the bottom to the top, I mean there might be some individuals in the fringes that disagree, but they have no power and as soon as anyone says anything from within, uh, they just get, they just get shouted out and exiled from the organization. Um, it's, I mean it's it's as close to total ideological capture, I think, as you can possibly get within these things. I mean, they took out, they took out like age limits and they put in a chapter on unix in their most recent uh, standards of care it's a fetish, just so everyone knows it is yes, I mean if and if they, if they could do that and like not bat an eye and just be like, why wouldn't we have a chapter on unix?
Speaker 6um, I mean, it just shows the degree how far gone they are. So I mean I would hope that this type of medicine just takes place under the umbrella of the medical organizations. We already have APA, endocrine Society, things like that. I don't know if we need a specific organization, because it just turns into like an activist advocacy organization that departs from evidence because you know it's whatever the evidence happens to say Well, they're representing people who want access, not necessarily you know what's the best evidence-based medical care that's out there.
Speaker 2I hope this isn't an overshare, but I have such a love-hate relationship with Marcy Bowers, who did my vaginoplasty, because, on one hand, like she did something that made my life so much better, like so incredibly much better, made it possible for me to get married and date straight men and have a really good life, and so I saw the way that she fought at the hospital to get her trans patients care and I'm so personally thankful for her. But then, on the other, I've seen the way she's overseen the fall of this institution that had so much potential to make my life better and everyone else's life better, and she's just a failed leader and I'm so torn about this. Does that make sense?
Speaker 6Yeah, no, I totally understand.
Speaker 5That's how I feel too, where, like, I just see people who you know claim to be like supporting us, and I think whenever these people, whether they be in the democratic party or the medical establishment, whenever they stand by like bad science or refuse to engage with reality, that is such like a poison pill, and eventually that is going to come and wreck havoc, because you cannot win against reality, and the larger the gap between ideology and reality, the harder that snap will be when eventually things come crashing together, and so I just don't think there's any way through this that doesn't involve a totally honest discussion and, yeah, it's frustrating for sure.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's why we're here.
Speaker 1That's why we're here with you, Colin, Reality's Last Stand, I mean you've been on that project for a while and it's like it's true, it's interesting all the groups that caught up in it and, honestly to me, that GenSpec is the result, direct result almost of WPath failing. I mean, that's something we're all seeing here and there's been controversy after controversy and I's like we got to pay attention to them and we got to understand the limits of gender, really gender care at all, and just understand that we got to be balanced and nuanced in how we approach this and be data driven. And that's something I always, I've always personally appreciated with your platform, because I do see you really diving in to the data as opposed to the ideology.
Speaker 2Yeah, speaking of science, I wanted to give you an option. My husband has a PhD in bacterial genetics and spent, I believe, over 25 years working in drug development development, and we thought it would be fun to make sure we're ending the show with some good vibes to um, come in and give you a little bit of a game show. So are you up for that at all?
Speaker 6oh god, am I gonna be quizzed on biology, right? Now I've been out of the field for a little while, but yes, let's, let's do it. Hopefully they're more evolution oriented oh, Hello Frank. Oh God.
Speaker 3Hi, there Hi.
Speaker 6It's being sprung on here, dr Wright.
Scientific Trivia Game Show
Speaker 3Hi, my name is Dr Frank Wu, I'm Brianna and I would like to say hello to you. Scientists to scientists. So, as Brianna mentioned, I have a PhD in molecular biology, you have a PhD in social insects and arthropods, which I find fascinating, and sometime we should just sit down and just talk about that stuff, because that's awesome.
Speaker 6I love talking about that stuff. I never get to anymore.
Speaker 3I'm writing a science fiction, a military science fiction novel about humans versus a society of killer space centipedes. So you know social archipelagos, anyway, we're off topic Anyway. So your PhD is from UC Santa Barbara, go Gauchos. Mine is from the University of Wisconsin. Go Badgers, we have a bye week this week and if you are game to be in a little game, I would like to invite you to a brand new segment of Go Cow Science. Blinded by science, I'm down. Do you see what I have to deal?
Speaker 2with all the time. This is what you deal with off camera. I regret transition entirely. I take it up. I have no idea what happened in the show, but before I showed up.
Speaker 3I assume this is like a I'm just continuing the happy, joyful energy.
Speaker 5Yeah, no.
Speaker 3Actually, skylar, if you would like to be volunteered to be scorekeeper, it'll be really easy. I will ask progressively harder questions and, as uh dr right answers them, he will get progressively more and more points and thereby glory and honor all right. Question number one proteins include enzymes. Eight percent of muscles% of muscle mass is protein. Proteins are made of amino acids. Question number one for Dr Wright what is the amino acid represented by the single letter, abbreviation R? And if you need a hint I can give it to you R Amino acid R.
Speaker 5The pirate acid.
Speaker 6I don't know.
Speaker 3It is. I'm asking about R.
Speaker 2Arginine, arginine.
Speaker 3Yes, oh, my God.
Speaker 6There we go.
Speaker 3Are you sure that's right? 20 points. 20 points for question number one, 20 out of 20. Excellent, good job. Okay, question number two what is the central dogma of molecular biology?
Speaker 6Well, that's the link between let's see that you got it. Yeah, yeah, no, I know that it's that all the selection is based on, like random mutation creating different types of proteins, and that leads that can basically explain, like all the evolutionary. It's the link between the genetics creating proteins, uh, that get selected for this, basically, is that for the central doctor.
Speaker 3If I had asked the question, what is genetic evolution? I would have given you 20 points, but I actually have the central doctor, which is a little different.
Speaker 6I don't know if I can formally put it Okay.
Speaker 3So let me ask you this what?
Speaker 6is the relationship between DNA, rna and protein. Go so DNA? Well, it creates the RNA, so it binds with it, and then the RNA then goes out and makes the proteins.
Speaker 3There you go Through the ribosome. That's exactly it DNA, dna makes DNA.
Speaker 6Okay, so that's the central dogma is DNA to RNA to protein. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 6I've been out of it for a little while.
Speaker 3No, I changed it.
Speaker 2I used to teach this to my students we're rooting for you. Dahlkcast wants you to pull this out. Come on, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6He's the molecular biologist here, so he spends his time. I spend my time poking ants and bees and wands.
Bee Personality and Scientific Wonder
Speaker 3Okay, well, okay, so let me give you like 12 points out of like whatever for that technical question. All right, okay, okay, I am full of questions, but I'm also like inquisitive myself, so I would so for 10 points. Tell me something that I might not know about bees, and I'll give you 10 points. If I didn't know that you might not know?
Speaker 6Yes, do you know that they do a certain dance on their hive and the angle that they do their dance on a vertical hive has to do with the flat angle in relation to the sun is where their next hive is going to be or where their next flower patch is going to be.
Speaker 6I actually did the waggle dance? I, I did know that. Tell me something else. Let's see with bees, um, you know how? About wasps? Because their personality is related to the personality of their entire hive. Like you can predict the way a hive behaves at a group level based on the personality of the founding queen who founds it early on in the year like what kind of I?
Speaker 3because I know like one of one of your papers is on like, uh, the personality of, of like groups, uh, of of organisms, as opposed to like individual, which I which I thought was really yeah, yeah, uh so what? What do you? What do you mean by the personality of wasp? Yeah, tell us about this.
Speaker 6This is actually what part of my well, my PhD specifically, was on spiders, but I was doing like two PhDs side by side and whichever one was best was going to be my dissertation, so mine was on. I did a lot of research on paper wasps. The solitary paper wasp that starts out with a single queen, it's a Pellicetes metricus. It's a paper wasp.
Speaker 6Palistes metricus it's a paper wasp, and basically you can predict the behavior of the entire colony that comes out months later that she founds, by just knowing the behavior of the founding queen. And not only that, you can find out how the colony is likely to survive, uh, in nature, based on the colony's personality. So queens that are really bold and stay on their nests for long and defend their nests give rise to colonies that actually are less likely to attack intruders. The workers are less likely to fly off. But queens that are more likely to fly away when you're prodding them and antagonizing them are more likely to give rise to nests that have workers that will fly and swarm quickly at you when you pester them, quickly at you, when you, when you, when you, when you pester them. Uh, and then colony survival is related to to both queen how bold they are and also how large, the queens, are no analogies there to anything we've discussed today that was one of my big discoveries
Speaker 6I guess as a when I was a real working scientist. So that is something that I, I.
Speaker 3So is there a way, theoretically, that someone should take that knowledge to make some kind of chemical or something to control wasp populations in like my house, sing me and go like just like do their wasp thing without like over there, without like bothering me?
Speaker 6it'd be. You know, I was always that was. The worst part about writing grants is because there wasn't a whole lot of like practical application for my research. It was just I thought it was really really cool and I would always I made a ball here to practice.
Speaker 3I would always, I would always try to make.
Speaker 6Yeah, I would always try to make some link to like colony collapse in bees, and if personalities occur in these wasps and maybe these same things occur in bees, and then somehow with that knowledge we can protect the bees. Or you know, I would always say that in my grants, but at the end of the day I just wanted to play with wasps.
Speaker 5Go ahead, oh go ahead, tell me, wait. No, I have a question. What's the chance that we can breed wasp queens to make like really friendly ones, that create hives of like wasps that could be our pets?
Speaker 2oh my god you could probably select for the docile wasps.
Speaker 6I think that I mean that there is a genetic component because their, their workers have, you know, inherit their personalities. So I mean I guess there were some experimentals we wanted to follow up. I never got a chance to because I left academia, but I wanted to see, I want to do these queen swap, uh tests where, like before the workers emerge, you put a different queen on the colony because the workers will work for whoever, whatever queen is there, uh, and if they behave, see if the workers behave, as though you predict based on their natal queen versus the replacement queen. So I never got to tease apart actually the genetic versus environmental Interesting. That could be someone else's dissertation.
Speaker 5If I had grad students, I'd have it, he's giving out free ideas.
Speaker 3And whether the wasps give like an initial signal that sets everything in motion, or whether they give continuous biochemical signals. Yeah, yeah, whatever that maintain order as as defined, yeah you can do.
Speaker 6You can do queen removals to all kinds of yeah, there's so many things.
Speaker 3What happens?
Speaker 6to it, I mean to the last.
Speaker 2Okay, okay, frank, I love you. I've been married to you. I told you at five minutes not 500 minutes.
Speaker 3I'm going to give him an extra 15 points for that, because that was just fascinating. How many points is that Skylar?
Speaker 1Oh gosh, Let me sum that up.
Speaker 6Have we been keeping track?
Speaker 1We have, I have 57 points, 57.
Speaker 3A brand new record. Hell yeah For our segment, science Blinded by Science, which is all about the joy and wonder and diversity and exceptions to rules and all sorts of complications that you wouldn't expect in science and biology.
Speaker 6I hope you guys have other scientists on so I can see how I measure up there.
Speaker 5I've never seen 57 before. That's amazing.
Speaker 3It's a truly ast astounding uh amount of points. So, anyway, so that was uh, that was fun.
Speaker 2So, um, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, everyone I like I just want to note this I love that frank positioned his camera so you see his saber tooth tiger, his sky striker and his lego version of what is that the thing?
Speaker 3gigahorse for lego version of the gigahorse which I built myself from scratch. Uh, so I'm very proud of that and then then above on top we can see Woolando, which is our little Lego city. Well, I wanted an interesting Zoom background. Anyway, thank you, thank you everybody for having me. Thank you, Dr Wright.
Speaker 6Thank you so much. I'm going to get dunked on by people for flubbing the central dog. Well, add in all the ones you missed out.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly, thank you so much I'm gonna get dunked on by people for flubbing the central dog. Well, I added all the ones she missed out.
Speaker 3Yeah and again science is is full of wonder, complications, exceptions and glory and uh, funness bye frank thanks, frank very entertaining uh home, home life, you must he's crazy.
Speaker 2He's quite a character he's willing to marry a trans woman. So you can see the adventurous spirit that? Yeah, isn't he? Yeah, I love him. I think he's good, he's fun, thank you colin yeah yeah, no, this was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1I'm, I'm glad to be here. He's fun. Thank you, colin. Yeah, thank you, colin, for coming on.
Speaker 6Yeah, yeah. No, this was a lot of fun. I'm glad to be here. I had messages from people that were like you're going to go on there. They're just it's going to be a you know, I don't know, they're going to try to get you on stuff and it's going to be nothing but hostile. But this was fantastic. No, yeah, but I know some of the people on there.
Speaker 5It's fine, we can talk and, yeah, I was definitely trying to find like things we could disagree on. Yes, yeah, I was like oh god, I'm gonna end up agreeing with everything.
Speaker 6Yeah, well, I I know some of your, I know some of your viewers on twitter. They were saying I was like basically the devil. So I hope after watching this I am a little, a little more humanized to them, that I'm not your enemy, at least I hope.
Speaker 2I mean I can say this Look, you've always gendered me correctly, you've been totally nice to me, and back channel I mean, yeah, I don't think you're the enemy. I think we share an assessment on the dangers of what I think you call woke ideology. I 100% like it's not serving anyone and you know I'm not with you on a total ban for minors. But I think, other than that, there's a lot of shared energy. I think, at the end of the day, all of us want the same thing here and there's a better system for trans people, minors and adults to transition under. I think all of us agree that this highly politicized system is serving no one.
Speaker 6Yeah, and I think all of your voices are incredibly important here, more so than mine, because people don't listen to me, because I'm just a cis white, whatever person who's getting bugs? Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1I think we need you on our side. Yeah, we need you too. It's all team effort.
Speaker 6Okay, team effort for sure.
Speaker 2Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 1Yeah, thanks for having me. This was a lot of fun. Thank you, should we move on to topic three? I feel like we are. We have a lot to go through here. Okay, all right, so that was great. Now let's move on.
Speaker 2I'm going to do it again.
Speaker 4Look at that.
Speaker 5All right. Wow, what a great interview we definitely just had chronological.
Speaker 2We did not have to edit all these things in different order.
Navigating Reactions Within Trans Community
Speaker 1Wonderful, all right. So now let's move on to our final topic today and let's address some recent reactions to our launch of Dollcast, particularly one by India Willoughby, who just had a couple of negative things to say about the show, and I think it's just an opportunity for us to respond, clear the air and talk about why we're so passionate about what we're doing here and how we love the trans community really with what the show represents. And, brie, as I understand this was a bit almost personal to you. Could you open up on that a little bit?
Speaker 2Well, can we show? Do you want to read what she said? So we can kind of give people context and then I'll kind of address that.
Speaker 1That is a great suggestion, yeah, so. So India had this comment and she put up out a post about it and I'm going to read it right now. She says I used to be like this. I didn't know any LGBT people before publicly coming out, and then I suddenly got swamped by LGBT orgs and charities because of all the media attention telling me what to say, who to support, what to do, et cetera, which I resented. I didn't want to be a part of a community. I had just broken free and I was an individual. I transitioned because I was a woman and just wanted to fit in, so I lashed back at LGBT. I remember Piers Morgan telling me that I was a role model for doing so and for a time, you get drunk on things like that. But then, as I found my feet and opened my eyes, I realized what these people liked wasn't me. They liked the fact I was attacking and taking the mickey out of my own. This gang of four needs to grow up.
Speaker 4Wow, that's some bullshit if I've ever heard it. That's my first time hearing it I didn't even see that. The fact that, like she, if anything, I was a pick me like three months before we started this podcast, when I was like on my trump right wing bullshit, like the last thing this is, is like a pick me attitude. This is up standing up. This is us standing up for our rights because of, like, all the shit that's being taken from us clearly, which is why Trump just won presidency and why we're like freaking out about having to like stack our hormones so we don't like like die or be forced to like revert. Like I, if anything, that's the most pick me fucking post I've ever heard in my life. She's just doing being a pick me of the other side that's right, it's the fringe.
Speaker 5Yeah, I don't know I have like a hard time because I don't want to be like too mean about this, but I absolutely feel like the only way you could come across, you could come back with this position on dollcast, is to have not actually listened to it at all, because I totally agree like my entire goal going into this was to avoid being a pick me and to make, like you know, amends or to move towards the more trans, positive position.
Speaker 5Like the first topic that I ever suggested on dollcast was what do you love about the trans community? And I have felt like so disappointed in, you know, the gender critical people and the TERFs, and I totally just want to be able to like advocate for trans people in a way that is honest, but not, like you know, feeding into these like TERFy talking points, and so it's like really frustrating to me to see this, because I feel like it is like so self-centered to like see this, not watch it at all, not care about the actual opinions discussed, but then just like make it about your situation, like, yeah, I relate and I think you're like not wrong about what you're saying, but like it's just not relevant to like what I am saying, and it's so clearly, indicates like a lack of interest in actually engaging with other people said Taff, yeah, I, oh God, I don't want to start drama with her, but I have not said anything about India Willoughby publicly, as she's gotten into row after row after row with JK Rowling.
Speaker 2That I think has been poorly done. I think she has portrayed herself in a way that makes trans dignity harder, and I have chosen to not do that because I generally don't go after sisters unless I've got a really big reason to. So I find this to be so frustrating because I'm not someone that transitioned five minutes ago. I transitioned a long time before India did and I've thought carefully about this for over 20 years and I see us moving in the wrong direction. Everything we are doing on Dollcast, it is because I think all four of us love the trans community. I think we love trans sisters. I think we find a lot of meaning in sitting down once a week. I think there's a reason every show is three hours long, because I think it means so much to us to hang out with each other.
Speaker 2And you know, what I want to create is not something because I've got animosity towards trans men or non-binary people. I just want a space where we can have a voice about the things that impact us and to kind of take the public policy in a direction that serves us. This show is not about hate. It is about love for the community, because I truly, truly believe in my bones that if you are a normal trans woman that just wants to get surgery and pass and get married to a man and adopt some kids, I don't think you have a place to go today and that's what I wanted to build. So I respect you. India, feel free to reach out to me and back channel Like I don't want hostility with you, but you've fundamentally got her motivations wrong I'm gonna quote you on that.
Speaker 4That normal trans woman, what you just said, she's gonna be like oh, that was disgusting. She's gonna ask you for a bigot just for saying that. Wait, it's like why you would be nice to her, that's, but that's okay.
Speaker 1I mean, if she wants to do that, she can do that. We can't convince everybody, nor should should we. We should bring in the middle ground, like that's what we're here for. Plus, the bigger audience is the non-trans audience. Anyways, I mean, they're the people that need to be reached, not, we don't want the, we don't want the arguments that are in bad faith connecting with those with the middle ground people. And it's like my viewpoint on this is I have sympathy honestly for India Willoughby because I feel like she has bought into the wrong vision for what? Yeah, for where the, where trans rights and LGBT rights need to go, and it's like part of that is, from what I've seen, is a denial of the limits of, you know, transition and biological sex, and it's like we, we policy, has to meet in the middle and and people outside of the community see that. And that's where I think like that's where we, you know we got to bring it all in together.
Speaker 1And the whole thing about the pick me criticism, please, everyone is a pick me for someone. It's like there is no such thing. Pick me is the in my view, the fabricated attack on someone actually standing for something, and it's because we care is why we're here. That's why, like someone calling me a pick me honestly doesn't phase me. I want to listen to the meat of why they think I'm a pick me. That interests me, I'll take, I'll look into that. But just the words of, of just that superficial argument oh, they're a pick me, it's nice try at just trying to dismiss me. The people that are open will listen anyways, and that's what I. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead, because I know you.
Speaker 5You have a maybe we're trying to jump in over each other more. That's one of our main goals. Yeah, no, I mean I guess I would say that I have been a pick me Right and I feel like a lot of my first steps, my first forays into political discussions, were dominated by a desire to sort of be liked tweet. I resonate with that right, like I resonate so strongly with her experience of having people who maybe like would be a threat to trans rights or a trans activism, coming to her and being like, wow, you're doing a really good job, like I, like you. That feels really good and that can be intoxicating.
Speaker 5And I, like India, also had the experience of realizing at some point like, ultimately, you know, I can get lots of adulation and praise by these people, but in order to do that, I have to deny some part of myself and I have to allow myself to be used and tokenized. I realized that and that's tokenized. I realized that and that's why I started dollcast. I'm like, because I didn't want to do that anymore. And so it is because I like, relate so much to her and agree with her about, like, not wanting these tokens, that the tweet bothers me because it's like, oh, like we could be like, so on the same side on this, but I just feel misunderstood, or maybe even like willfully misunderstood.
Speaker 5And when you engage in this tweet, like you know, immediately being like, oh, I'm shutting down these people, like you know, I was just like them, but they they're just like these pick me. That is the same exact behavior as saying I'm not like other trans people. You should pick me Like I'm one of the good ones. It's the same kind of like attention grabbing, you know, throwing other people under the bus without really considering their perspective that I've tried so hard to get away from. So I just find the whole thing so like, deeply ironic.
Speaker 4Yeah, well, no, I was just saying, just saying you're right, like it is ironic, because that it's the most, like I said, it's the most pick me thing I've ever heard. It's just her, get trying to get the liberals, the extremists, the non-binary crowd, all on her side. It it's like if you were going to pick me. If you didn't want to get validation for the shit you're saying, why would you have written that post instead of dming us privately? Yeah, explain that to me.
Speaker 5Saying why would you have written?
Speaker 2that post instead of dming us privately.
Speaker 4Yeah explain that to me so she followed me for a long time and see, no, I I want to know. Yeah, it's a genuine question. I'm not even trying to be cunty. Like seriously, like you put you type that shit out to be like, oh, I was gonna get so many, like so many, retweets. Everyone's gonna tell me that I'm so progressive. Oh, follow me like I don't give a fuck. It's such pick me behavior.
Navigating Trans Activism and Politics
Speaker 5Yeah because if she actually cared, she would have like watched the actual show and seen what we actually had to say and how. In that very segment I'm like yeah, I actually have no problem with non-binary people and I'm coming at it from a different side than brianna, where I used to be more conservative, and now I feel like I really need to defend trans rights and like I need to draw a line in the sand. That in the sand that respects trans people and also, you know, doesn't give cover for the most insane opinions in the community. That's always been the needle that I'm trying to thread, and I and other people in the show made that so clear in the segment, and so it's like, clearly, you didn't actually care about what was said, you just care about like getting this dunk on Twitter, which is the worst kind of discourse.
Speaker 1So I love the passion. I'll just say that.
Speaker 2I was just going to say you know, it doesn't take bravery to be a progressive. Pick me and to keep us going on this course. It's literally the most safe thing that you could do in this moment and it's what a lot of people are doing Right. Just go for this maximalist opinion. It takes no bravery at all. I think what we're doing right now is a very, very brave thing, because I get shit every single day from trans people and I get it from TERFs, and it's because I really love my sisters enough that I'm trying to chart a course for us where we're going to be able to keep our rights.
Speaker 2And I'm sorry to be spicy to India, but you made a very famous public comment saying you considered yourself more of a woman than a cis woman. This is the most brain dead, progressive, hostile, like tailor made statement to make cis women hate us. It is bizarre and this is the kind of reflexive and this is the kind of reflexive, stupid politics that are driven by ego and it just does nothing to help us. We need calmer heads to prevail. We need people that are more thoughtful, like sit down and understand. I don't agree with you on everything, but we are sisters and let's stick together, like at least for the next four years.
Speaker 1I genuinely don't know what situation would call for them something I I really I feel like I already have learned from taff in this whole thing, because I'm pretty new to the online space.
Speaker 1I mean, honestly, doll cast is like one of the first things I've ever tried online is the element that defines pick me for me in any real sense is the portrayal of your own values yes, at the expense of being liked, and like that when, when taft shared that, it resonated so much with me, it's like I need to figure out what my values are so I'm not betraying myself and it's like that whole and that's always an evolving process, like I think.
Speaker 1And that kind of comes back to where kelly joining the show has really showed me a lot, because I see kelly constantly trying to evolve and learn and like for lack of better words like do better but just understand, like the positions and like not just you know, you know necessarily fall back into what is comfortable for her and it's like I love that from everyone here. And, of course, marie is like always, always there to catch all of us. So it's like you know, the whole team here is just wonderful and it's inspiring to see, like where this can go, I feel like I don't know how y'all feel.
Speaker 2I feel like I have learned stuff from you and your perspectives that have changed my mind on some things. Like I used to hold the position that the trans community would be fine if we just transitioned people earlier. This show has shaken my delusions on that. I do not believe that's the case and I think that's the value of real conversations with each other, so we can learn, like this is such a weird, unusual experience to go through and I just think, like if sisters can't really be honest with each other without these fringe politics forcing us to say stuff, we don't think I just I don't't know how, I don't know what the point of transition is like. Isn't it for us to all find out what's true inside of us and where we need to go? Like we need a more honest conversation it used to be.
Speaker 4I don't know if it is anymore what do you mean by that?
Speaker 4because it. It's not about like, oh, us, a community anymore, us like saying how we actually feel. It's just saying whatever is the most liberal PC bullshit and the most accepting to, for I don't know what for anymore. It used to be to like get on the liberal side to, I guess, progress in politics, but now it's like I don't even know if that's the way the world's going with. How many people just voted for Donald Trump the other day, you know? So it's like I don't. I don't even know what the point is anymore in being a liberal. Pick me, because it's not getting us anywhere. It's just destroying the community. I think it's so ironic that she's making a post acting like we're the ones destroying the community, when I think she is. She's a part of the problem, not us. We're the ones that are opening up the discussions that are like having the tough conversations, when all she's doing is posting some bullshit for likes and tweets.
Speaker 1Yes, and I think I think the other another thing to kind of help maybe maybe dampen the outrage here, because it is easy to see, it is easy to kind of view that from it. From that perspective, I think I always remember like how, how hard it is to like come to grips with yourself being trans, and I think, and I don't know, maybe maybe she has some unresolved parts of that. What going on for her, because like that kind of, is what that? Like that tweet you referenced brie, like that is what that reads to me like part of transition is accepting your biological sex and moving on. Like that is, ironically, how that needs to go, and it's like I don't know if that's happened there and so if that critical piece isn't there, there's going to be a lot of other collateral things and a lot of you know, I don't know bad, negative outcomes out of it, and so I don't want to be too negative and I think I will also try to say something nice.
Speaker 2India had a hit and I'm sure she's done many like this where questions from both the audience and the hosts, in a way like as someone who also does that professionally, I came away really deeply impressed. So I do think India at her best is a really good advocate. So you know, like this is a bigger problem, my strategy with everything does not need to be your strategy. A really good example, aaron Reid, I got into a tiff with a reporter yesterday talking about the Lila Alcorn story a decade ago and we were getting into it and saying I personally don't think you can trust mainstream media to tell our stories like a story about suicide.
Speaker 2And you know I was thinking as I was writing that, erin Reid, I have a ton of issues with the way Erin Reid frames certain things, but she does not have to mirror my opinion for me to think directionally. She's out there telling trans stories and putting information out there that's just not going to be covered any other way. So I don't go after Erin Reid publicly, right, and I just I don't know where this insecurity inside of ourselves comes from, that if a trans woman is doing something differently, we gotta like shut her down. I don't think that's very helpful actually.
Speaker 1Agree.
Speaker 4Yeah, we need to be more connected, not divided like that's the goal yeah, I don't know how you can say she could ever be a good activist, though after especially after you said that tweet that she wrote about how she's more of a woman than cis woman, it's like how do you come back from that? I mean I know I've said like crazy shit, but at least I've apologized. She probably still believes that. I'm assuming, yeah, you would have nothing to transition into.
Speaker 4If it wasn't for this woman, you would have no idea who you are. I mean, right like it's crazy. Let's be honest it's crazy.
Speaker 2It was such a politically dumb statement and, you know, I really wish she'd just stuck getting into fights with jk rowling.
Speaker 5Jk rowling is the death star, so don't go up against the death star until you got the plans like like, that's something we need to do more strategically, I think yeah, I also don't want to be like so negative on her because I don't like know that much about her at the end of the day and so, like most of my judgment is just like withheld until I would know that, and it really is just like this particular tweet judgment is just like withheld until I would know that and it really is just like this particular tweet that I was like this is like just so missing the point that it's frustrating and she could be like a totally cool person otherwise, but I think in this instance, it's just not not a good representation of the best approach to having discourse and to maybe integrating ideas into the community. So I was disappointed to see it.
Speaker 2That's such a sweet way to say that. Well, I think we'd all agree that if India wants to give our whole host lineup of guests coming in away, but it's a problem that every single gender critical TERF person on the other side that I've reached out to that I've said hey, you want to come have a conversation with four trans women? Yep, Like just instantly. And if we're looking at more activists to come in, trans activists to come in and have a conversation.
Speaker 2I find that to be very cloistered and it's like if you can defend your ideas, like come talk to us about it. Maybe I'm wrong about some stuff I change my opinion on stuff all the time but if you're not willing to come on the show and have a discussion with us in good faith, like it's only going to be one side that that perspective is coming out there. So I really invite like any famous trans person out there in this field, hit me up in my DMs Like we would love to have you on the show. We're trying to find the way forward for our community here and you know we will give you an open floor and be very polite to you yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4I do just want to say I don't know india personally, um, so this is I only know the tweet you just read and the other one you the other statement she said previously I probably was getting a little too emotional. I just don't like when people who clearly didn't watch more than like a 30 second clip before making a statement. I don't like when they just like do some pick me bullshit like that and just be hypocrites when they're doing the same shit on the other side. But yeah, I don't know, maybe I shouldn't have been as hot headed. I definitely would want her to come on here and I would love to have a cool, level headed conversation with her if she's willing to do that. So I apologize if I was.
Speaker 2I don't think you were too tough, I think. I think she fires some shots and she can take some.
Speaker 5And I think that, like we should, you know, I think it's important to be ultimately honest about you know how we feel and know our positions on things, and I think it would be disingenuous if we were to be like, oh, india, like you know, nothing's wrong, like just come and talk to us, like, let's be honest, like we felt like it was not a good characterization of our show, that kind of you know, sold us, you know, as something we're not so frustrating. But, um, if we wanted to like go and talk and like work through those differences, that's really important for sure.
Speaker 1Love it, absolutely All right. Well, I just want to. Can I close this out? Great Thanks so much for hanging out with us today on Dollcast. It's always a blast unpacking these topics with you. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, dollcast-r8n that's Dollcast-R8N. For more content, and follow us on TikTok at Dollcast for your daily dose of insight and laughter. You can also check us out on x at doll cast show again, that's doll cast show. We can't do the show without your support. Until next time, stay fabulous and keep spreading the love. That's me all right, brie. This episode is terminated. Taff, this episode is terminated.
Speaker 1And Kelly. This episode is terminated. You heard it, folks. This episode is terminated. Thank you for tuning in.