E1x04: The Plot to Destroy Ben Ryan

The Plot to Destroy Ben Ryan! 

Benjamin Ryan, a distinguished journalist specializing in healthcare and gender medicine, joins us to provide insights into the complexities of gender ideology and the challenges of meaningful discourse. Through candid exchanges, we address societal perceptions and the ongoing struggle for inclusivity in gendered spaces. We tackle the impact of bathroom bills and the increasing attacks on trans women's rights. Our discussion questions the motivations behind restrictive legislations and calls for unity amidst adversity. 

Switching gears, we offer a lighter exploration of self-care with a session on hair care tips and techniques, featuring the Dyson Airwrap's innovative styling tools. The conversation wraps with a focus on moving beyond echo chambers, embracing authenticity, and using humor and compassion as tools for engagement and understanding. Whether discussing the nuances of transgender rights or sharing personal tales of resilience, this episode invites listeners to join the journey with empathy, curiosity, and a readiness to challenge the status quo.

Transcript

kelly 0:01

welcome to dog house with kelly kagan I know you guys are gonna tell me I'm crazy, but I think all gay men would benefit from a gender transition rihanna woo you know who rihanna woo is. It was uh people online. I said you have been here, so I don't.

Schyler 0:24

I don't remember what she has got more confused on girls or boys would be a better fit for me, and when you're bisexual and you have the potential for either, you gotta parse that out a little bit and taj tough.

taftaj 0:38

Having your story heard, having people empathize with you on that kind of political level, I think it's really hard to do.

Brianna 0:45

It's the Dollcast. Mostly normal women.

Schyler 0:52

Hi there and welcome to Dollcast, where real conversations meet a little bit of sparkle and sass. I'm your host, skylar, and we've got an exciting show today for you, with a mix of heartening topics and some lighthearted fun. As always, I can't do this alone, so let's introduce the fabulous co-hosts who keep the show lively and awesome. So first off, we have our wise and ever mystical muse, taftaj. She's here to drop some insight and a little bit of magic. How's it going, taft?

taftaj 1:27

to drop some insight and a little bit of magic. How's it going? Task it's doing, it's going good.

Brianna 1:31

I'm podcasting from swiss alps today, which is why I have a different god. Can you get like a swiss made costume and then wear it on the show.

taftaj 1:38

I don't even know what that looks like, but I would love to do that. That would be so fun.

Brianna 1:41

The swiss mist box, that's something that's very uh. It would work with your body type, I think I would say right, I'm thinking of what you're putting.

taftaj 1:51

It's yes, yeah, um no, that'd be awesome, for sure it's. It's really lovely here having lots of fun.

Schyler 1:57

So oh, we're happy you're able to join. Of course, no, we're so in a whole other time zone whole other country.

Brianna 2:04

It's amazing I was scrambling all week to have backup trans girls, just in case you couldn't make it.

Schyler 2:11

So there we go and that my friend is brianna woo. She's always holding us together and she's breaking down politics, or maybe she's winning at mario kart. I mean, she brings the energy and she brings the fire what's up, brie? What's going on with you?

Brianna 2:26

I just got back from Disney. So last week Frank and I were just like we're sitting there on Sunday. We're like God, I'm so sad that Trump won. And I'm like, wait, we don't have to be here in Boston, we can be anywhere. Do you want to just go down to Disney World and just spend like a week down there? So we'll work during the day for our hotel room and then go hit the parks at night and Frank's like, yeah, let's go put the dogs in jail, let's do it.

Schyler 2:50

So I literally just started like an escape from just the everyday, like drama and the politics, the politics that are going on right now. I don't blame you.

Brianna 2:59

Yeah, it's so good. I mean this it's okay. I mean this is something like you'll find, uh, as you uh get older, uh, sky is, you've really got to make time to put your marriage first, because stuff will happen and you just like, when hard times come, you got to make sure you're taking time for that.

Schyler 3:14

So this way, all my flaws, my marriage on the back burner. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you know what I'm saying.

Schyler 3:21

It's like so easy to forget that you know it's true, it's true no, my parents said the same thing and it's like, well, you know, um, I, I know I hear it and that's well, that's why we take trips like we do. We just, you know, I, I don't know if I were going to disney every you know year or so, but we are taking little, we take little trips. We do like hiking just anything to get out of the house and out in nature. That's, that's our way to do it. I mean, we don't have the money to necessarily go and take these grand trips, but, um, we do, we do budget for it once a year.

Schyler 3:53

That's like our way to do it, but let's, let's continue. We have to get to our final co-host, kelly cadigan, known for bringing the tea and a little bit of spice. Kelly, how are you doing this week?

kelly 4:04

I'm doing really good, a lot better than I was on last week's show. That's very damn sure I'm ready to bring the positive vibe I loved last week's episode.

Brianna 4:14

it comes out tomorrow and it is honestly the best segment I think we've ever done like it. Just it turned into this, this emotional. I hope y'all will watch it Like this was us at our best, so it was good.

kelly 4:28

It was just a downer.

Brianna 4:33

I mean, you know, do y'all ever worry about that with this show, that, like trans topics, like we were in our show meeting, we were really worried about this because, like this week, trans women are under attack with bathroom access. Yeah, nancy mace is trying to become the um american spinoff of jk rowling and you know she's about to put out, uh, some legislation that's going to affect, like, trans women in airport bathrooms, right?

Schyler 4:59

so it's harder core than jk rowling like in my opinion, I agree also like I get confused with jk because, like she started out, very like, I thought middle of the road, like okay, fine, like I get what, like what. Her first tweet, the one that like started everything, that was like forced women out of their like spaces or something, I honestly I I'm gonna forget that she was kind of moderate at first, yeah at first right, and now she's like.

Brianna 5:26

Now it's like okay, she's made it her own grift and it's all right but what I was just gonna say is, like, as far as the show itself, I I really worry about this because I don't want this. I I think this happens in trans spaces so often is it becomes doom and gloom, and I want, like, the focus of our show to be about four cool, like trans girls coming together, having friendship and having fun conversations too. So I don't know, that's something I was just worried about.

Schyler 5:59

I don't think it's all doom and gloom. I think it's tempting to feel that way right now, but for me it like I always think like the bigger picture, like right now in the first okay, you're four years Trump's in office, there's a right wing agenda and it's very trans. It's very critical of trans medicine and trans everything. That's like anything that has to do with gender nonconformity, I feel like is on the chopping block a little bit here, yeah, and it's like I don't think they're going to get to the point of coming after our hrt. But seeing nancy mace weaponize what's going on about, like you know, trans women as a threat because they're men is a little concerning yeah, it doesn't help that she looks quite masculine too do you think so?

Brianna 6:41

I think she's really pretty. Actually, I mean, I don't want to talk.

kelly 6:46

I'm not wanting to talk about people's looks, but I just think, like I, she looks like someone that, like I, could be like. Oh, is that person maybe trans and like, not in a bad way, but just like this is what is that like with these bathroom bills?

taftaj 7:00

the trans hysteria is just at this fever pitch. You just know that there's people who they believe in their heads that they can like clock trans women perfectly. They cannot. And there's going to be masculine women or older women or women with pcos or whatever it is, who are getting harassed in restrooms because people are insane. So you're like exactly right, which is like these standards for femininity? They ultimately hurt women and that's really tragic.

Brianna 7:27

So I I've said this to you before taft that, like one of the cool things about getting older is, you know, uh, cis women they've had a lot of plastic surgery to look young, look pretty much the same as trans women with ffs. It's the exact same carefully sculpted feminine aesthetic that's slightly artificial and you don't know which one it is, so I don't think there's that much of a difference. To be honest, it's a good passing path.

Schyler 7:57

Can we just talk a little bit about the Nancy Mae, sarah McBride drama that has been all over X. I have not seen anything captivate the trans community like this, and when I say trans community I'm just talking about the big profiles on x with like the trans stuff and it's like I I have such mixed feelings about this because I, I I support nancy mace's like protect women and girls. I, I believe in protecting women and girls. I don't want fetishists or people whipping out their dick in the women's room like that's not okay. But do we feel like the whole, like scorched earth, all biological males are predators? Approach makes sense because I think it's absurd.

kelly 8:39

Yeah, it's not about affecting women or girls to her. It's something way. It's rooted in transphobia. That's why I can't agree yeah.

taftaj 8:47

And yeah, no, I'm all for protecting people, obviously, but I think that, like this bathroom bill is such a good example of like, how false this sort of like pretense is for protecting women and girls, because harassing people in restrooms that is illegal, right and like if you're being harassed or assaulted like you can and should call the cops and report that and someone can and should be charged for that. And we don't need this extra line of like. Well, you know they shouldn't be in the bathroom because that's not really actually defending people. It's just about creating this like punitive state apparatus for, like policing which restroom people use in, um, and it doesn't work. Like, it doesn't make sense pragmatically either. Like it's just going to end up hurting like masculine women and, at the end of the day, I think it is so clearly just about transphobia and not actually about helping people, because I don't see any world in which a bathroom bill actually improves the outcomes, you know, reduces sexual assault. I just don't see that.

Brianna 9:57

I was in the bathroom last week and somebody asked me like they were out of like you know tampon and they asked me if I had anything Like they didn't even clock me as postmenopausal.

Schyler 10:07

I'm not a lesbian or trans woman.

Brianna 10:09

Do you know what I mean? Like it's this is not going to affect anyone on this show. Like it is going to target lesbians primarily and like the thing is they can treat us as partners to bring this crazy out of the trans community. There's a discussion we need to have as a trans community about people with beards that make no effort to pass walk into the ladies, because we've seen these TikToks, we know there's a portion of our community that wants to do this. But at the same time, like it is like like you can't do that if you're trying, like this scorched earth, all or nothing thinking, because all it does is force us to get our hackles up and then it turns into another stupid left versus right culture war where no public policy that addresses anyone's need is going to get like put forward.

Schyler 11:05

So so right, like, oh my gosh, okay, I, I'll share this so you can put this on the screen. But this picture y'all y'all remember, did y'all see this? No, oh my gosh, this whole, so this is exactly what we're talking about here. This the fetishist oh my God, yep Invading women's faces, and it's like, look, I'm completely against that too. Like, why is this person think that, oh yeah, because I'm wearing I don't know lingerie out in public, I get to go. And now, and I'm a woman, and I get to go in the women's space. It's like, no, that's so inappropriate, and so it's like I the. The problem is, is that, like, what recourse do women have to say no to that person being in their space?

taftaj 11:48

Right, yeah, I mean, I just think there needs to be like standards for how you exist in public, and if you're wearing like fetish gear in public, like frankly, I think that's something that can people should reasonably be able to remove you from their premises and, you know, know, if you're pulling out your penis, you should be charged with like assault in public, of course, of course this is so like common sense, is it?

Schyler 12:14

is it like the? Because fetish gear could be like what if they're not nude? Like it's like? I know it's still like. Oh, it's not.

taftaj 12:22

Well, it'll say like a full fetishist is wearing like sandals or something, right, oh yeah, and like, in their mind, they think it's sexy, whatever, or I don't know someone, they go out with their partner and they're in like a dom sub relationship and you know, the dom says, like you have to go order something from that counter or something. You are involving other people in your sexual fetish and those people are not consenting to that. I think that's, you know, really gross behavior. I don't think that's necessarily something that, like, we can legislate. And so for me, it comes back to like this, like pragmatic line in the sand. Like this, like pragmatic line in the sand where, like, if it's obvious that someone's engaging in fetishistic behavior, I think that's something that we socially can agree should be prohibited, maybe with law, right, and you know, in terms of going further, trying to get into people's heads, I don't think we can really do that effectively. We just have to accept that, like, okay, there might be a foot fetishist who wears sandals. That might happen. There's no way for us to know, um, but I think you mean we can't read minds.

taftaj 13:30

Yeah, I wish, right, um, but that's why these bathroom bills are so ridiculous to me is because you know, we talk about actual enforcement of them. Um, you're not going to have a police officer checking people's genitals or ids at the front of the door. Can't have that happen. So it has to happen after the fact. Right, you have to rely on everyday people to call the police and report suspicious behavior, which they should be doing anyways. If someone's engaging in rapey behavior, and so I don't really see the point except to aggravate the charges after the fact, and that also seems unnecessary to me um, maybe there's like argument to be had about that, in which case, like you, just you know, you don't make it illegal to enter the bathroom, but you say that, like, if you, you know, assault people in a public restroom, maybe that carries like an extra, you know, aggravating factor I, I don't know.

Brianna 14:27

I think this is where, like tanf, I know you are I don't want to say more sympathetic to the non-binary political project, but I think you are you're more well. I guess this is. The conflict that I feel here is that 20 years ago when I transitioned, all this stuff was on the honor system and trans women by and large understood we needed to fly under the radar and not cause a seam in there, and there was a lot of like, like. I can remember sister sharing pics with me. It would be like am I ready to use the bathroom yet? Do I need to get further into electro, like all that kind of stuff as you're doing RLE?

Brianna 15:06

There was an informal culture in trans spaces to not get in trouble, and that culture has switched where it's now an entitlement culture where people that I personally don't think are trans are like of course I belong in there.

Debating Gendered Restroom Policies

Brianna 15:24

What are they going to do? It's very male coded, there's no effort to get along, and the only public policy solution I can personally think of for that is it comes down to either carry letters, like we used to have back in the day when you're starting RLE, or like what your legal gender is on your driver's license, of which I do think we need a process to start sorting that out, rather than just the honor system. I do think you should have a medicalized transition if you're going to have F on the driver's license. That doesn't necessarily mean vaginoplasty, but I think you need to be on a medical pathway certified by someone. So I think it's really hard when you have this gender expansionist project. Like, how do we handle those faces with those people? Because, like again, the california law happened, the we spot incident happened because of this non-binary political project here in massachusetts. I'm like 90 sure you can just go in there, no matter how you identify and like it's, it's a problem. Does that make sense?

taftaj 16:29

to you, I mean yes and no. So like, quite frankly, I think in a more sane country, you know, you would just have like a stalls room and maybe like a urinals room. The stalls room is bigger because stalls should not you should not be able to see people's feet and like see, you know, through the holes. That's nonsense. Like you should just be able to go into a stall and do your business, whether you're a man or a woman. Time for better bathrooms.

taftaj 16:55

Yeah, this is, like you know, kind of besides the point, but, like the fact that restrooms are segregated at all, I think it's really a problem which comes from, like urinals and the fact that, like men just have their penises out and like that can be a really uncomfortable and weird and, you know, rapey situation for women. You know, if a guy's like gesturing at his penis and she's like walking by the urinal, gross, understandable. Like women don't want to see that and, frankly, like some guys are shy and they don't want women to be walking by, that makes sense to me. Um, I think, though, what we have here is that, like I think you you do have a lot of like genuine transphobia, where, like it doesn't make sense to like care really that much about the presentation gender-wise of the person in the stall next to you. I think people fundamentally, at the end of the day, need to get over that, and we can't like hodl these behaviors and tell women that, like you should be really worried about, like whether or not someone in the stall next to you has, like some facial hair right said. That said, like you're saying, trans community used to be a lot smaller.

taftaj 18:08

It used to be a lot easier to enforce these informal rules and the stakes used to be a lot higher. Trans women knew that they didn't have this big social apparatus behind them to defend them, so they really needed to present a certain way to avoid trouble. That makes sense. We don't live in that world anymore and now the expectation from people is they can really cross a lot of boundaries, they can make other people uncomfortable and it's up to other people to like affirm their gender at.

taftaj 18:36

At the end of the day, I think that's really toxic and I do think to some extent, it makes sense to maybe have the government step in when people can't socially regulate themselves, and so maybe that means, like you know, if you go into women's restrooms or women's locker rooms. You have to have some sort of indicator to prove that you're not going to act like a psycho. Pull out your penis, you know. Whatever they're going to have some discretion. I think that's really okay, especially for those environments where, like people are engaging with each other in a nude way, there's no way to get around that. Sol is maybe a different story. Maybe there's room to work out there, but, like you're saying, with the lockdown, you know there are these instances that come up that do really matter and you know, maybe it's f marker, maybe it's prove you're on hormones for three years.

Brianna 19:30

Just something right, yeah, yeah, this is oh sorry, yeah, well, just really quickly to reply to that taff. I mean I don't like me. This is just old-fashioned or conservative of me. But like this nancy mace thing happened this week in hand to god. I was in a meeting and I was out in public at the time and I just like I'm sure y'all have had this happen to you I just needed to go cry. I was so emotional and I went to the ladies and I just sat there for 15 minutes crying and then I redid my makeup and walked back out and did the rest of the event.

Brianna 20:01

Or you know, I don't know if y'all do high profile, like really nice events at really nice venues, but like the ladies room there has like a couch that you will go sit on, socialize that's actually. I've had important conversations and meetings in there for networking. So I I don't like me. It's just like this is my conservative upbringing. I don't like this idea of like abolishing these gendered spaces, because I do think there's a culture in the ladies room of like, you know, doing your makeup or having a casual conversation. That is cool. I think that's a space women should have.

taftaj 20:37

Well, I think that's fine. I just don't think it needs to be enforced by law and I don't think trans women, you know, are a big enough problem that we necessarily need to get the state involved in this. I think it's okay if, like occasionally, sometimes in the ladies restroom, some trans woman comes in. That doesn't pass, sure, I think it's okay, and I don't think it destroys the concept of women's restrooms or the ability for women to kind of just, you know, be women and feel free in there, and that's okay. So, yeah, I think it's about like scaling the policy to the level of problem. I don't think that there's like a demonstration of this, like you know, epic issue, I agree.

Schyler 21:16

This has been really tough like for me to parse out, because I feel like I see both sides of it and it's like I don't think you can police people based on their like. You know, you don't know people's biological sex. This is just a reality that a lot of the gender criticals will pretend doesn't exist. But on the flip side, I see I don't know, just unhinged videos of I wouldn't call them trans activists, but I guess trans women or non-binary, I'm not sure. But this insistent, this entitlement of nancy mace, I'm gonna attack you physically, I'm gonna beat you up and I'm gonna use women's spaces and I'm like, oh my god, I'm not, I'm not gonna defend that, like that is obscene behavior to me. And it's like I don't want my viewpoint of the right for some trans women to use the women's base to be taken and used, weaponized for people like that. And it's like I don't know how to balance it. So I'm like, how do we? You know what's the striking? Where's the middle ground here?

Debating Gendered Restroom Policies

taftaj 22:17

It's a good question. I do also want to ask Kelly.

kelly 22:22

Yeah, I said a while ago I said this like a year ago that people after they're on hrt for a certain amount of time, or when they get their license changed, if they're trans, they have like a certain marker on it that says that they're like I don't know, officially trans or transitioned enough to be able to use like spaces, like the women's bathroom and then what everyone say they compared to the holocaust and like star or something to like mark them I don't even know it's like as jews, I think. I don't know.

Brianna 22:47

I just maybe a little hyperbolic maybe a little, a little, yeah I miss when people would just go to the bathroom.

kelly 22:54

That made sense. But I feel like non-binary people kind of ruin that for us, and also just trans women that want to just walk in when they don't pass at all, or predatory men that want to take advantage of how woke and accepting the whole community has become. It's just, yeah, I don't know. I want to sit up here and be like, oh yeah, like I, I totally get where, like, biological women are coming from, but it's like, at the end of the day, like I, regardless of, like, what laws get passed, like I mean, take me to freaking prison, but like I don't care if they pass a law in my state that says trans women can't use the women's bathroom, I am not using the men's room, yeah, same.

Brianna 23:26

Like that puts my safety at risk so much more than it would have me using the women's, you know, so it's I don't know this is why I find so frustrating is like y'all have had experiences with guys that get really scary when they find out you're trans, right, like I mean like Actually, when they find out you're trans, right, like, like I mean I've like actually now, well, like when I was like I've never had it happen to me in person, but like when I was dating, the way I would do is, you know, before dating them, so you'd meet guys and then you would tell them right, yeah, I would always do it by text or whatever.

Brianna 24:01

And you know some of them would get really, really, really yelly and aggressive in a really scary way. So, like I I do think if you're forcing trans women to use the men's room like I'm sorry, there's some guys that are gonna get really weird about that that will put us in danger but they don't care if we're in danger, because it's not about protecting trans women, it's about protecting biological women and that's all, I agree, because they perceive what we did as a cosmetic choice and there's no changing their opinion on that, so they're like oh well, these are the consequences of your actions well, I want to be clear.

Brianna 24:36

I think most people don't feel that way. I actually think most people, if you get down to it, they're like it's not that surprising that there are some men that act like women and look like women and are just more comfortable that way. I don't think that is something that's hard for most people to understand. I think these hardcore gender criticals their brains are just cooked and you can't talk to them about this.

kelly 24:59

It's tough, and when you're on social media especially depending on how your For you page is is set up it's easy to feel like they're the majority.

Navigating Gendered Spaces for Trans Individuals

Schyler 25:06

they're not, you know they're not it's tough, you know, because I feel like I, I see where they're coming from and, to be honest, like out of this whole ordeal, I've made a priority of using a third space, if there's one available, just out of respect for the struggle, and I understand that, like I'm not the type of person who's gonna virtue signal and post that shit online, like I don't believe in that, but I do see where they're coming from and it's like, but at the end of the day, it's like it feels like it's making an issue out of something that doesn't really exist, like I, because, in other words, like I'll go to the women's restroom and it's zero, no one cares, it's completely a mute issue. But I understand that I don't want to send that signal, that that's an expectation for every person who identifies as trans, because there's so many that don't do anything or have beards, and it's like I don't want that expectation to be like oh, because I claim the gender identity of female, I get, I'm entitled to access in this space.

Brianna 26:07

It's the entitlement that's the problem. Is that not a real rest?

kelly 26:12

then, though, to have to use a family restroom or like a gender neutral one, because I know, when I go to like the theater, pretty often there's like a men and a women's bathroom, and then there's the family bathroom, and like, maybe within the past like six months, I felt like this pressure to almost use that family restroom just because of how many people on twitter like tell me I'm like invading women's spaces just by existing and using the women's bathroom, but I almost feel like, period of time, felt scared to even enter the woman's bathroom, and I felt like I was forced to to go to this special space and I don't know, I just I hate that Like I have to feel that way. Does it not bother you at all?

Brianna 26:49

Bothers me.

Schyler 26:51

I mean, you know, in an ideal world, I wish it wasn't a deal, I wish it wasn't an issue, but the fact is is that there's so many bad actors or, like you know, I don't want to say predatory identified males, but like that's sort of predatory trans identified males, and I'm going to say that because they're literally like men, they look like men and they're going in the women's restroom and causing problems, and that's what nancy, nancy mace is weaponizing for her. You know political points and her whole grift, and it's like, and she targeted sarah mcbride which honestly, if you ask me, doesn't have good optics, especially with the way sarah mcbride responded, which go good for her, because she was backed into a corner and like she totally nailed it, I think, by redirecting the focus on what she was actually elected for, which, to you know, instill better policies and implement solutions, not I thought she handled it fairly well.

taftaj 27:44

I agree I don't know much about her, but I also think that, like she's a great avatar for the trans community because she passes really well, so, yeah, easy to rally behind what they want.

Schyler 27:55

Yes, I was like this is the reference. I'm so glad for her being in there. But then I see like the other side of it, like zoe zephyr, who's like I'm the same as a biological woman oh my god, just kill me.

Brianna 28:08

I mean, you know, I, I, I don't think about this when I use the bathroom. Like you know, kelly, you said something at tiktok a while back that really, really resonated with me, which is like you can't even remember what it's like to be a man, because it's been so long, or having those parts, which is 100 how I feel. And you know, frankly, if I got arrested for being in a bathroom would be a national story, right. So, um, you know, like it's, it's, I'm gonna go about my life, I'm gonna do my thing. I'm not hurting anyone, I'm not trying to make a political statement. I transitioned to blend in and to not make a big deal out of being trans, and that's what I'm going to continue doing.

Brianna 28:49

So you know, I think that what I find so frustrating about this project by the gender criticals is it is so many echoes of the segregationist South that I grew up with. Mississippi is a state that's still torn apart from that struggle in the 1960s. It did not end well for us. So you know, it's like the sports issue. You know, I understand that for someone like me. I underwent male puberty and like it volleyball. I just have an advantage and do not need to be playing. That that's fair. I have no issue with that whatsoever. But for something like pinball, you've got to give trans women a space to integrate as women and participate socially, or that's just flat out bigotry, right? So I like. If you're talking about compromises where everyone gets what they want, I'm on board with you. But if you're trying to expel trans women from every single space where there's not really a valid public policy concern, it just comes across as bigotry to me. Well, it brings up the point of why they separate things like chess too right, like with male and females.

kelly 30:02

Because they separate things like chess too right, like with male and females, because they say that, like men are just better at chess mentally, so I don't know if they would say the same thing about pinball.

Brianna 30:11

It's just like they're like you have a male brain technically, so you'd be better at this than biological women it is because men like in these spaces, like they just dominate and it's cool to have a space to hang out with other women. That's literally it right. Um, you know chess it's I I don't play chess professionally, but I would expect it's just a place to hang with people that are like you and and the truth is like I have a lot more in common with most women than I do most guys like. That's just true. So I I just think, like this project to expel us from all spaces, it's just it is it's just cruel it just makes me think of the queen's gambit.

Schyler 30:52

Yeah, did y'all see that?

taftaj 30:54

again I didn't, I didn't uh well, I'm familiar with the premise yeah, okay, yeah, I mean it's just that's.

Schyler 31:02

What makes the movie noteworthy, though, is that this biological female is beating these males at chess and it's like this I guess game you know that really, you know leans into structural patterns of thinking of, like what the chess pieces can do, and it's like I mean, the question is, is how far reaching are biological effects really?

Debating Responsibility in the Trans Community

taftaj 31:24

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean in the sports arena in particular, history of segregation in sports. It's really fascinating because early on, when sports were becoming desegregated, there was an incentive among the white players to avoid letting in black players because there's less competition, right, and a huge reason why sports eventually became racially desegregated was because teams realized that if they let in black players, they could have these amazing players but really contributing to the team and making the sport much more interesting to play. And for baseball, prior to letting in the black players, black players would have their own games. They would go around their own state or their own country or United States and they would play. They attracted huge crowds but they weren't fully integrated and it was only when the sports teams realized that they could actually make a lot of money they started bringing in these Black players.

taftaj 32:30

But it was the white players themselves who didn't want to invite those Black players in because it was competition and they exerted a lot of power on the sports teams, acting kind of like a cartel.

taftaj 32:42

So you know, there's potential that, like in chess, people benefit in some way from it being less competitive, from having fewer women involved in it, having them in their own world, regardless of, you know, whether or not there's like a biological advantage certainly not the case that, like chess players, are posing a physical harm to the women they're playing with and at the end of the day, that's what it is. For me, when it comes to the restrooms thing, like, is there evidence of a physical danger posed by trans women to cis women when we are using an integrated bathroom? I don't think there is, or at the very least, I think that this kind of vulgar policy that involves these bathroom bills is not a good solution to reduce the relatively minor amount of sexual assault and, you know, bad behavior that is occurring in bathrooms from trans women to cis women. I just think it's ridiculous and the only motivation that makes sense for these sorts of bills is just blatant. You know transphobia, so you know, call me a lib, but that's.

Brianna 33:51

Fine lib, I think, to play devil's advocate for just a minute. Would the three of you not agree with me? The trans community has completely failed to police our bad actors Like we have just sat here silently as is expanded and expanded, and expanded and you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans, and any kind of medical safeguarding is oppression. And it's really unsurprising to me why the trans movement largely because people like me just stayed silent and didn't make a big deal out of being trans like has has grown to this place where you do have people with beards going into bathrooms and filming videos about it. Now I mean, don't you think like we are somewhat responsible for this mess we're in?

Schyler 34:44

Yes, I do.

Schyler 34:45

But I also, but also. But I mean that's the short answer. But I think, like the strategy has always been like either one of two things to pretend it didn't exist or didn't happen and just flat out ignore it, or to try to go oh, they're not actually trans, they're, they're not trans. We decide who's trans now, because you know, we, just you know, we can't cope with the fact that someone that I don't commits rape in a women's prison is, you know, someone who's also trans. Like it's like no, that can't be the case. And it's like I mean, yeah, there's some issues of policing it, but I mean there's so, it's so sporadic. I mean there's all these places where there's, there's all these different people that you know it's happening and it's like, okay, so the the beards and the trans woman thing, I think, are you thinking of that Tik TOK that like kind of went viral? Where it was that? Basically that guy who had a beer but he had boobs.

Schyler 35:38

That's, that's one of them but it's not that specifically I've seen this over and over and over.

Brianna 35:50

Yeah, the gender queering. There's an entitlement that if you just say you're a woman, you belong in that space. Now and this is part of this bigger project that I suspect y'all agree with me it's like there's a. The willingness to get along with people has been replaced in the trans community by a thrill from daring people to disagree, and then, if they disagree, it gets moralized instantly like the Lily Tino video right, calling her sir. Right, how dare you, how dare you not understand this? Calling her sir right, how dare you, how dare you not understand this? Like there is a, a thrill from getting like seeing if people are going to dare to call you on it. That is just so unhelpful in my view.

taftaj 36:34

Yeah, I've definitely seen that behavior. You know, people sort of realize the power that they have other over others and they're willing to exploit it.

kelly 36:42

Yeah, definitely you know it's just like the definition of just. You know she was going to those. I hate even saying she. They were going to those restaurants looking for people to misgender them, so they could make those videos and make their money.

kelly 36:54

I doubt they're even trans and like I hate to be like, oh, it's just a vibe. It is just a vibe, though like I can just tell that this is just a fetish, a fetish for him or her, whatever for that person and it. I don't believe they're actually trans and I hate that. Like there's no I I wish we just had like a test, like a blood test or something that could just like confirm if someone was trans or not, because then it would just end so much of this bullshit and I just pray that like one day we get to a place where that is possible, but I don't know if it will ever get there well, I think that's the thing, kelly is that like we don't have the test and some trans people are just gonna be assholes or they're going to be predators, right, and they're going to engage in bad behavior, or they're going to be totally innocent, but they're just not going to pass.

taftaj 37:42

You know sufficiently everyone's standards and I think everyone realizes, um, that when we start implementing standards like you have to pass a certain level that suddenly becomes very arbitrary. It's very easy to fall on the wrong side of that, and I think every trans one recognizes that. Like on a bad day maybe, maybe they fall on the wrong side of that. Like I certainly feel that way, and that's that's scary, right. And so I think that's why the trans community tends to sort of you know form rank on these things and say like we can't use this standard because it can end up hurting people it's not intended to.

taftaj 38:21

In regard to the question about predators, and you know to what degree is it our responsibility to police behavior I think that, like any community, we just need to acknowledge that, like we can't police every trans person's behavior and sometimes there's going to be bad actors, but that doesn't necessarily need to indict us. We can say, yeah, this person was acting, you know, rapey, in a public restroom. That's not a trans thing, that's a weirdo person thing. And there's weirdo people in every community there's weirdo. There's people who are in the gay community, who are pedophiles right, I don't think that that's an indictment on normal gay men. It's just not right. And it's okay for gay men to say that Like acknowledge, yes, this exists, it's not me.

Hair Care Tips and Extensions

Brianna 39:11

I mean I nearly got raped by a gay man when I was a child. That really sent me off course for a really long time. But that's I mean I know that's not all gay men. So I would love to if I could just move the conversation along. I would love to have some cheery fun topic today.

Brianna 39:31

So I wanted to change the topic to something I've wanted to ask you for a long time, taft, which is I want to hear about everyone's hair routine, because I think you have gorgeous hair and, kelly, I think when you take a round brush, I assume to it you have amazing hair sky. Your hair always looks on point. So I want to hear what everyone does with their hair routine.

taftaj 39:56

It's a great question yes, okay, I went to the dermatologist recently. Um, I have this like redness around my nose and I walk in and I'm waiting for her. She finally comes in through, looks at me. The first thing she says is how often do you shower? And I was like what? And she's like, yeah, your hair is like incredibly greasy. Oh no, all the dandruff in your scalp, it's snowing in this. Oh man, we'll edit this out, just so you know. Yeah, absolutely. Um, people deserve to know. The public, american people, are interested in taft's dandruff. I have always had like incredibly thin hair. My dad was 18 and my mother oh god, love her. Hopefully she doesn't, like you know, feel like I'm airing her dirty laundry. She has also very thin hair. It like doesn't really grow past. Um, her like chin maybe. It, like you know, lightly grazes her shoulders. I don't have great genetics for this um, so it's um, it's an uphill battle for any products for me. Yeah, uh, really bad.

Brianna 41:07

I think it's like the way you style it just really works with your face shape and it always looks really pretty, I think I've never noticed that your hair looks thin at all.

taftaj 41:15

Yeah, that's good, yeah, it's um. I mean it's like fairly. You know, I don't know't have any bald patches or whatever, but it is just thin hair and I've definitely developed strategies. So if there's other people, other trans women who also have thin hair and want tips, I have lots of them.

Brianna 41:39

What's your top tip? What's your top one?

taftaj 41:42

Okay, so many things. First of all, I've experimented a lot with extensions. Extensions are incredible, especially the weave-in extensions.

Brianna 41:52

If I was wealthier, can you walk me through this actually, because I've heard about extensions. I've never done this. Tell me what it is top to bottom. Yeah, okay, yeah.

taftaj 42:00

So they just get hair usually from Asian women and they dye it blonde. Yeah, okay, yeah, so they. They just get hair usually from like asian women and they like dye it blonde. Yeah, this is the reality. Asian women have like gorgeous, naturally long hair and lots of them are willing to sell it, uh, so they get that and they can like weave it in um to your hair. One way to do that is they get these little like brass or copper clamps, um, and they usually have like a silicone lining, so they just like wrap strands of hair in the clamps and then you can sew in the hair you buy to those clamps and it looks like fully natural, it's right there, like hair. It lies smooth on your head.

Brianna 42:37

So if you rub your hand through it like this, do you hit the clamp Like can you do that all the way through it?

taftaj 42:42

Yeah, yeah, you can do that easily. It's just like because it's at the very base of your scalp and I guess okay yeah, yeah, if you watch it like normal hair you can wash it like normal hair.

taftaj 42:58

You can style it like normal hair. Now I will say it's easier if you have thicker hair, a little bit right right, like so, because I have thinner hair. I think if I were to style it in certain ways you might see the weft, if you know what to look for. Frankly, you know I had extensions for so long and they were never an issue. They feel totally natural. You wash them like normal. They just become part of your hair, because all the hair on anyone's head is dead already. There's like not really a difference between it and your hair, except for the fact that it's not growing so how long is it?

Brianna 43:34

yeah, I get for. Do you have to get redone, or yeah?

taftaj 43:39

yes, so usually you get the extensions for like a year, maybe two years, if you like take really good care of it. Again, these are like nice extensions. You can get cheaper extensions that just like clip in kind of more like wig quality, but if you want like good extensions they'll last like a year or two and usually you get them moved up every six to eight weeks so your hair grows and you'll get like an inch or so of like your natural hair growing out and so it'll move down. That can like look slightly bad. It can get like tangled, so they just like they go in and I've had this done multiple ways. Sometimes with the clamps they can just push them up. It takes like 15 minutes and you're like done, you go in the next, you know couple months. Sometimes they take them all out. I will say tapings this is totally like taft autism, extension hour. Um, tapings like really messed up my hair. So I recommend the weave um the tie-in.

taftaj 44:39

But yeah, if I was, if I was, richer, I would have extensions in forever. Really, yes, okay. So gender affirming care. I have lots of criticism, but when I put in extensions I look into the mirror every morning, I feel beautiful and I feel good about myself and I'm just in a more positive mood and I feel like I don't need to wear makeup because, you know, I just have this like part of me that just like I feel really proud of and feel really nice about. Yeah, yeah, it's like I like have justified it to myself in that way, where it's like is a form of kind of like gender affirming care for me. That really works. Now, unfortunately, um, they are quite expensive. If you want them to be nice, how much?

kelly 45:31

how much thousand dollars appointments too?

taftaj 45:34

I'm sure it costs a lot yeah, oh, I think the place that I was going to last it was like four hundred dollars every two months, that's nothing, that's fine okay, I don't know.

Brianna 45:47

I'd say nothing, okay, that's doable, that's doable, yeah, well, again because I want like more volume here, because I think like it's not that like I have very, very thick hair, but when I can attack a round brush and get like a lot of volume here, that's what I think you've got, that, like you know, sixties gorgeous hair. I think the problem is too flat.

taftaj 46:11

Yeah, yeah, I mean, what do you guys want your hair to look like Like? This is sort of undergirding the whole discussion, cause I like lots of volume, I do too.

Schyler 46:20

Oh no, I do too. Oh no, I do too. Yeah, really, because yours is so straight. No, I know Well, that's because that's just easy. That's like low maintenance. It's just like have it colored and straight.

Schyler 46:41

That's my thing is like I like to get a balayage every like, at least once a year, maybe twice. But with balayage they'll just paint the color onto your hair, so it's like a little bit more natural looking. It grows out better. That's why you see it like.

Schyler 46:53

If you look at mine, it's like kind of darker up towards the top but then it gets lighter and it's just because it's easier to grow into. And it's like it's just easier to not have to worry about upkeep, whereas, like highlights, you would notice it very stark when it starts growing out, where it like starts and stops from the root. So, like I'm low maintenance when it comes to volume because, honestly, like to do, to get the volume you would need to use a lot of hairspray and probably a lot of curling, um, a lot of product, like all of those things, and it's just like I don't know. I want to put like minimal effort into my hair routine. Um, so I usually just like yeah, I do like the basics to wash it, put in some like conditioner, and then I'll like straighten it a little bit um is because I never had to like feel like I was styling it for it to look good.

taftaj 47:45

I just like wake up and I was like this looks amazing, right, exactly. I'm also like I was paying to like never have to style effectively what about you.

Brianna 47:57

You, kelly, what do you do?

kelly 47:59

Yeah, I spent a decade growing out my hair, so I don't really tend to use hot tools on it so much I didn't for the longest time. Oh, I hate hot tools. Yeah, I just do. I use Tresemme, even though everyone says not to use that. I use the moisturizing shampoo and conditioner, but then my secret is I always finish with like, uh, the purple hask packet which is like it's like a moisturizing mask for your hair. I've been using it for years and I, just after I condition, every time I wash my hair, I leave it in there for like 10 minutes and I'll like shave my legs and it just makes my hair come out so soft and I do this like every other day. Um, and then recently I used to just let it air dry for like years, but then the past like year and a half, I got the Dyson air straight.

Brianna 48:43

I love it. I love it the air wrap. This is the greatest invention ever created.

kelly 48:48

I bought the air wrap because I convinced myself I was going to teach myself how to curl my hair. And I literally just bought it and I haven't touched it once.

Brianna 48:54

Oh girl, I will blow up your phone with tips for it. It's the greatest thing ever made, so.

kelly 49:00

I don't know how to curl okay.

Brianna 49:03

what makes it so okay? So with my hair I have, like I don't know when y'all get in the shower, do you just like blow dry it and go, because if I do that mine just ends up like this frizzy, stringy, messy thing. So like I have to wash my hair every like strategically every two or three days, because it does take me then like 30 or 40 minutes to get it looking professional enough to like do meetings and stuff like that. So the thing that the dyson air ramp I love is the air straightener is great to just like get it straight so you can then put product in it in a way.

Hair Care Tips and Techniques

Brianna 49:43

But the Dyson air wrap is such a brilliant point to to like start to understand how to style your hair, because it's so hard to like get a round brush and like get volume with your roots, and the Dyson air ramp will give you a decent result, even like with no scale whatsoever, like it's just like let's suck it up like hot and then cold blast it and you can get great results from that. That's literally what I did with mine today, cause I haven't washed it in five days and I needed to look good before the show. So it is just, is a miracle tool. If you are a professional woman, you should 100% have a Dyson Airwrap. It is just brilliant.

kelly 50:24

And it's less damaging too. It is Because it's not using like hot, hot heat, never. It's not like a metal.

Brianna 50:30

Yeah, never use a heating iron. I literally threw mine away after that. Yeah, does the ball.

taftaj 50:36

Just have curls.

Brianna 50:38

That's like the advantage yeah, it's so there are a bunch of different attachments for it. Like there's a round, round brush attachment. So if you're trying to like lift up your roots, you can put like volumizing mousse there and then use the round brush and then get a lot of volume that way. There's another attachment that like it's this coriander effect, so we'll like suck it up there and hold it there and then you'll get a curl from it. So if you see this like gentle curl that's falling. That's just literally from five minutes.

Brianna 51:07

With the Dyson, if you're like doing a television hit, it's got a flyaway attachment so you can like use smoothing spray on it and it will go through and like blow all your loose ends straight. And there's a blow dryer attachment too. So if you're like traveling, you don't want to pack a separate blow dryer. As good as the Dyson Supersonic is, I usually don't travel with that because the blow dryer attachment with the Airwrap is really good. The trick is to really find product that you like. Um, the dyson product is pretty good. I like it. It's super expensive. Uh uh, dry bar their entire series for a blowout. That's really good. But you can get a lot of like really good stuff with just the chi oil that you can find at any cS if you're really light on it. Interesting. I'm sorry I'm so kinky about this.

taftaj 52:02

I love it. Yeah, I think the hair science is fascinating, so yeah, what do y'all use?

kelly 52:11

for product. I just use the Olaplex heat protectant I think it's like number 30 something. I just use heat protectant. I don't do hairspray or anything. Really yeah.

Brianna 52:22

What about y'all?

Schyler 52:23

Yeah, now I use um, just head and shoulders, and then um, uh. The conditioner is the um, uh. It's like, oh God, it's. It's slipping me, I don't have the brand, but it's just, it's really great, I love it. Um and then um, and then, honestly, that's it. Like that's all I use.

Brianna 52:45

And I'm so lucky Wow.

Schyler 52:48

I mean, yeah, I have really thin hair, like tough, but I don't have like struggles with like the skin issues that you were describing Um so like, like I don't know. But for me, like the problem I always run into is that my hair gets super greasy if I don't wash it like frequently enough. So I shower, I mean I wash, I shower every day, but I wash my hair every other day.

Schyler 53:10

Yeah, um to like keep it like yeah, volume, so um, or else it looks bad. So I don't know. I'm off to try the um, the Dyson, what was that device called that you were talking about?

Brianna 53:21

The Dyson era. That is amazing, oh my God. Okay.

Schyler 53:25

Oh, I need to check that out. It sounds like really great.

kelly 53:29

I have two of them, straightener though.

Brianna 53:38

The air straight is great. Be really I. I am so suspicious of heating irons. I think they're so bad for your hair. Um, I do like the the air straight quite a bit okay, air straight, I'll check it out.

Schyler 53:51

I mean, I've always used just a traditional, like straight heater, um, straight hair heater like where it like clamps down and you just, you know, run over your hair.

kelly 54:00

I never do it wet, though, because I know like that is like really damaging, so I always like wait for it to dry and then I'll use it well, that's what's so great about the wraps is you can do it while your hair is like just when you get out of the shower, when it's like kind of halfway dry it's like actually it works better and it's like it makes it so your hair can dry like faster, so you're not like waiting for it to dry before you use the tool, but it's not as hot like that's.

Schyler 54:22

No, it does not damage it at all.

Brianna 54:25

It does.

Brianna 54:25

It's almost like having your hair wet makes it so it works better and it doesn't have to be as hot I mean it should be like halfway dry, so I do like a half dry before I do the air wrap, so it should be like kind of that stage okay, um, but that's like when you're doing it the next day. If you can get like a little wet with some product and we'll get through it, that will really work well too. The problem I have is like all the product like really way, because my hair is so thick, it's so hard to get volume, so like I have to be so judicious about how much product I use, because it'll just weigh it down and then I'll have no volume through here.

taftaj 55:04

Yeah, Interesting, I find that there's so many hair myths it's very hard to sort through them. Like I don't know if you've heard about like the rosemary oil thing no, what is this Okay about? Like the rosemary oil thing? No, what is this okay? It's like a very common tip that people will give which is like, add rosemary oil to your scalp to like make your hair grow faster and thicker. I think really, it's um, it's supposed to extend the window during which your hair is growing. Uh, so that, like, more at any given time, there's more hairs on your head because it takes longer for them to fall out.

taftaj 55:39

But it's based on like, really like shoddy science. This paper that like has all these sort of like obvious errors. So like there's text that's like duplicated in places that shouldn't be, and um, basically, it seems like there was maybe like a paper mill or something, but it gets repeated all the time, along with like dozens of other things that people will say which, like just you know, don't make sense, right, like, no, the idea that, like, water damages your hair, like not really good evidence for that, and so, and also, hair product companies are like so kind of oh yes, I, um, I went to this like salon. The other day they were having a drag show, which is like I don't know another story in of itself, but they're having a drag show, slash party, slash sale for their products. I went there and I got some things, but like I really feel like I was going out on a limb, like I was researching active ingredients and like trying to find like real evidence for their effective you know their effectiveness and I just like could find nothing. And it's so different from like skincare, where it's like you can get a retinol, you can get like a moisturizer, niacinamide, vitamin C there's like great evidence for these things.

taftaj 56:56

Hair care it's like evidence for these things. Hair care. It's like take this plant from like india. What do I do with that? So, yeah, I just want more hair on my head.

Brianna 57:08

Okay I'm gonna go get extensions. I, I love this idea, do y'all? How often do y'all go and get a blowout? Because when I do a big tv hit, my favorite thing is going and getting a blowout. That's like and you know, I tried to explain this to my husband one time and he's like wait, so you, you pay someone to wash your hair for you. And I'm like Frank, it's so much more complicated than that. I don't think I've ever done it.

taftaj 57:33

You've never done it. You've never done a blowout Kelly no.

Schyler 57:37

Oh, you're missing out.

kelly 57:43

I'm going to go kidnap you and bring you to. Yeah, no, they're really fun. What does it look like? Like I don't really even know.

Brianna 57:54

So they basically, well, you go there and they wash your hair and they style it for you and it like really really looks good, like because it's just easier to do it if you're on the outside. So, um, and the the cool thing is because it's done so professionally, it will last two or three days. It's just, you know, it's only like 60 or 70 dollars, like even at the highest tier, so it's not like a crazy luxury, but sure is it's amazing oh, I should try it before like an event or something.

Schyler 58:19

Yeah, you should yeah, yeah I first had a blowout after my first balayage and I was in love with my hair. I was obsessed and I was just taking so many selfies like I couldn't get enough of it. I wanted it to last forever. But I I was like, okay, I see, there's like all these steps and processes that go into it and you really that's why they like charge you so much when you go to do it. But it's fun to do. Definitely, do it as like a birthday treat or something.

Brianna 58:49

Yes.

Schyler 58:49

It's great.

Brianna 58:50

What is so cool today is there's so many YouTube channels that will just teach you how to do all this stuff. Like there's this one I'll put her in the show notes but like this woman that does like whatever hair product you have, like a Dyson, and she will walk you through how to give yourself like a professional blowout. And one of the biggest tips I found is like the sectioning, because this top up here you want to section that and then you get the ends and you section it there. So this is down and then you go piece by piece through your hair with clips and like you're really focused on the roots. Like there's so many like techniques to teach you how to do that stuff these days. Like it's it's a miracle, it's, it's fantastic. Yeah, I wish I was talented enough.

kelly 59:38

I can't even follow a basic hair curling tutorial, so I doubt I'd be able to do a blowout yeah.

taftaj 59:44

They make it look so easy, oh go ahead.

taftaj 59:49

It's this thing where you can go online and find makeup tutorials and I'm done by the most beautiful woman on earth. Of course, makeup looks good on you, like, yeah, you did like an eyeliner thing, but you're a model. So, like, is this going to be applicable to me? Usually not, and I feel the same thing, feel the same way with hairstyles where, like, I can look online and someone has like a beautiful, like braid in their hair. I would love to do that. I know that if I have a braid on my hair, it's going to be like this long and that's going to be half the hair on my head or not. This long, this thick, it's gonna be like this long, that's gonna be all my hair. So I just feel like, so like I've never gotten into doing hair because I realized, like, pretty much anything I do, it's like whatever, it's fine. Um, so, yeah, I find this problem with makeup tutorials too, because it's like, whatever, it's fine.

Brianna 1:00:37

So, yeah, I find this problem with makeup tutorials too, because it's always done by, exactly like you said, models that are in their 20s with perfect skin, and it's like I want to see a makeup tutorial by someone in her 40s with, like, decent skin. Like, how do you do these eyeliner tricks? So you've got all the fine lines around the edges of your eyes. It's just like you can put a backpack on me like Bane, filled with Botox, and I'm still going to have those.

Schyler 1:01:05

No, brie, you nailed it Like. It's so true, Like before. It's funny. Before I had FFS I would watch all of these tutorials on how to do eyeliner for hooded eyes or hooded eyelids tutorials on how to do eyeliner for hooded eyes or hooded eyelids and like there's a couple of celebrities that have them.

Schyler 1:01:23

But like, ultimately, what I found is like I just couldn't get it to look good, like I I would put it on and it would be fine, but it would smudge because I would blink and like I had all these problems. And then I got ffs and all the problems went away and I was like oh, wow, yeah, so much of it has to do with, just like, where you're starting from like you were saying if your skin is good and it's like tight and there's not all these wrinkles and everything it's, it's just not as hard.

Schyler 1:01:49

What are you doing with?

Brianna 1:01:50

my eyes today that looks so good sky oh yeah, I do the same thing every time.

Schyler 1:01:57

Like I have the same go-to regimen where I use the maybelline. Um liquid metallic eye eyeliner um, I love it so much, like it dries pretty quickly and like I just put it on, like you know, I don't know, it's just easy for me to do it. The colors is it just one color thing? Oh yeah, when it comes to the eyeshadow, I use color pop. I don't know if y'all know I don't know this yeah um, I, I love them, I think they're they're awesome.

Schyler 1:02:23

But yeah, I just start, I start with a light, a light layer and then I do like a shimmer and then I put more definition for like darker colors and I just like do them to the contour of the like eye and I just brush it out and I blend it and then I do one final layer of eyeliner. Um, and that's really all I have to do, and it pops out like this and I'm like all right, that's good enough for me. Um, but there will be times where I'll do more blended and I'll do like more of a smoky eye and because I really, I really love like the dark, like I just love making the eyes pop out and adding like the contrast that the dark is, it's like smoky eyes, just the way to go for it totally.

taftaj 1:03:02

I mean, I had a similar experience with you where it's like early on in transition, putting on makeup, it was like I'd look in the mirror and I'd be like, oh okay, so I put like a little bit of makeup on a face that I don't really like and so, yeah, I didn't really like doing makeup then and it feels like, as I've gotten more comfortable with myself, I've found that much more enjoyable. And so there's kind of in this like reversal where, like you know, maybe I don't super like styling my hair, but then when I get extensions, I'm like, yes, I'm gonna put put in braids. So it's tough. I think that you have to kind of love yourself first. Yeah, I agree, it's hard because people chase these. You know, they want to look beautiful, they put on lots of makeup, but you have to feel beautiful first.

Brianna 1:03:53

I think it's hard because I mean, you know, like sometimes you do still see that guy looking back at you in the mirror, right, and it's my lowest days, like I know it's not true, but I sometimes feel that way. Do you know what I mean? So I think it's like this lifelong error that's just never going to go away, no matter what away, no matter what.

taftaj 1:04:21

Yeah, so much of I don't know, but I've had lots of growth there as well, much more comfortable with myself. And you know, on this trip I've been taking a lot more photos myself and I've been smiling. I feel like I've I've learned to smile in photos. Um, yeah, because from the time that I was like 14 to maybe like 20 years old, there's almost no photos of me, not with friends, not with family. I'd go to Christmas dinners or you know, I'd get a photo taken with my family and it would destroy my day, it would ruin it and I would be depressed for like the rest of the week. And I have slowly realized that I'm able to like accept how I look. Maybe it's not how I'd want to, but like it's okay and it's worth it to have those memories. So now I'm building those for the first time in my life, even though I'm not like the model I want to be.

Brianna 1:05:11

I love that. I think this is just being a woman. To be honest, I think all women feel this way.

Nuanced Conversations on Gender Medicine

Schyler 1:05:18

Yeah, definitely All right. So we're thrilled today to have a special guest, benjamin Ryan. He's an independent journalist who focuses on health care, public health and science. He's written for a lot of major outlets, such as the New York Times, the Guardian and NBC News, and has spent a lot of years reporting on, I believe, hiv and its impact, as well as gender medicine. So, benjamin, welcome to Dollcast. We're very excited to have you here today.

ben ryan 1:05:49

Great to be here, ladies.

Brianna 1:05:51

We're so excited. Oh my God, yeah. So I wanted to start off and say just offer an apology, because I feel like trans Twitter is so mean to you, I feel like you're the representative of, had to go and like apologize for them.

Brianna 1:06:06

So that's kind of how I feel. You know, the reason I like your work is I think if I made a list of the reporters that I think are doing like the best job of just straight down the middle reporting, you would 100% be on that list. And I think it is so frustrating and it shows the the frankly, the intellectual bankruptcy of some people on our side that they spend so much time attacking you. I mean, how does that? How does that make you feel?

ben ryan 1:06:48

I mean, I know what my principles are, you know and I know where I stand and it's really nice when people reflect back to me exactly what they are. You know, you're spot on and that is. You know my goal is to be a science journalist. You know, you're spot on and that is. My goal is to be a science journalist, and that you know. Coming from the HIV reporting which I've done since the beginning of my career in the early 2000s, I started to see, indeed, when advocacy seeks into public health, sometimes their needs are aligned but sometimes they conflict. So you know it's my job not to parse those and not to just lean on the side of whatever some non-profit might think I should say, and so it is very bothersome to me in journalism as a whole. There was a piece that came out of the Guardian this week that was focusing really intently on the expert witnesses that testified in a lot of these cases about gender medicine ban for kids, and it was really scrutinizing how a lot of judges thought these guys were bunk and none of them had treated any trans people, or a lot of them hadn't. And it was extremely frustrating to me for two reasons. One, the reason this article was running was because it was suggesting that if the Supreme Court validates the six district court's decision that the Tennessee ban of gender affirming care for kids is constitutional, that this would be in effect validating all of these expert witnesses that they don't like. But the case doesn't even really hinge on that. For one thing and two, I've read a lot of the briefs which I don't think this reporter has concerning this case and they're really not about the strength of the science. They're more about legal questions to do with whether transgender kids or kids with gender euphoria receiving these treatments count as a class if it's sex-based discrimination or if transgender kids count as what's called a quasi-suspect class under the law, justifying greater scrutiny of the law whether it discriminates. So it was just sort of an excuse to run these guys through the mill, you know, put them through the meat grinder and criticize them. But if you read the briefs they don't really refer much to the expert witnesses statements. They refer to the fact that in Europe and the United Kingdom and the cast review that all of these health authorities have brought up gender affirming care for kids under scrutiny and questioned.

ben ryan 1:08:52

You know whether the science is strong and so, and you can see, there's a James Cantor is a sex researcher in Canada. He's been one of these witnesses who've gone and testified on behalf of a lot of the bands, and you'll see, in an email that got put online by Jesse Singel, what James Cantor said to the Guardian journalists. He said you know all of the. You know it's. All of these other institutions have come to this conclusion about the strength of the science. Other institutions have come to this conclusion about the strength of the science. The guardian guy misquoted him and said that he said this, not all these institutions. And so you see how the sausage is made. You see they, they want to demonize a certain perspective, and there's this concept that the, the right or whatever is right coded is always incorrect about science. In this house, we believe in science. Sometimes, however, however, the right is correct, and I don't think that people on the left can really reconcile with that very well.

Brianna 1:09:42

Sure. Well, what I want to do is like there are two conversations we can have today. I'm sure we can get into the meat of all of your reporting, which I would love to do, I think, for right now I just want to start with a more basic question, which is why is it so hard for us structurally to have a nuanced conversation about this? Because, from my perception, I think there are two dueling cults here. I think you've got, you know, sky, what I think you've brought me around on calling gender ideology. You know this kind of extremist trans view. Let's abolish gender self ID, abolish medical standards without science to justify it. Like, open up all care as quickly as possible, don't look at any of the downsides. That's kind of the gender ideology side. I think.

Brianna 1:10:29

On the other, you have what I could very charitably call the gender critical side, which is really a it's a harassment cult that does have the seed of valid public policy objection there. Like we do need a system for how, you know, trans women use the restroom. That is a reasonable thing to have a conversation about, but all too often, like I've probably gotten a thousand comments about my vagina in the last you know day on, which is just weird and gross and inappropriate, which is what this devolves into. So like from your perspective. Like what are the structural barriers that you see for someone like you going out and just giving a straight reporting? Like here's what the clinics are doing, here's what the times are, here's what the criteria are, here's who's funding it. Here's the information. So, so as citizens, we can make a valid, like public policy choice here. How can we like, move away from the extremes and like and get to the meat of a substantive conversation. What do you need from the public to be able to do your work with less bullshit? I think?

ben ryan 1:11:33

I would say I think that yeah, two major factors I think have enforced extreme opinions rising to the top, and one is gerrymandering within congressional districts so it makes it much harder for someone who doesn't have an extreme opinion to the left or right to win a primary, because all you need to do is win a primary. So I think that's a big part of the problem. I think that social media obviously, as we all know, the algorithm favors rage and division, and so that gets people going and gets people engaged. Those apps are there to keep you engaged. Twitter pays people who have large followings based on engagement, so there's a lot of incentives in there. So, and then more specifically, glad, in particular, hrc, lambda, legal, aclu these big, big nonprofit groups, some of which are very specifically LGBTQ, and then ACLU, of course, has that as a division. They're not out there looking for nuance, and I was listening the other day to Ezra Klein's podcast and he was talking with some expert about this idea that the Democratic Party, that a lot of the local bosses, a lot of that work that used to be more within the actual democratic structure, has been outsourced to nonprofits. So I think that GLAAD is really effectively speaking for the Democratic Party.

ben ryan 1:12:43

And when people puzzle over this idea, what is this? Kamala Harris never mentioned trans people when she was out there campaigning during those hundred days that she was on the trail and that's true, and then she was asked about it a couple of times and she ev, you know, with that idea of like. I'll just follow the law. But what people I think are reacting to is a larger structure. Glad is an extremist organization. When it comes to trans issues it's extremely inflexible, and then the way that has come after the new york times and in other institutions, and me in particular, um really is quite illiberal and it suppresses an even discussion of this. The idea that anyone, much less a major nonprofit institution that rakes in millions of dollars a year, should park a truck outside of a major news organization, as GLAAD did, with a sign that says the science is settled about anything, is completely amazing to me. So I have a pretty unique position, in fact, hey.

Brianna 1:13:39

Hey Taff welcome position. Hey, welcome back.

ben ryan 1:13:42

I started early. It was two years ago that I really started getting invested in the trans kids issue and started reading about it all the time, and so I spent a lot of last year trying to find left, left leaning, liberal institutions, media institutions to take my work, and they all said no, and the bottom line is they were all too afraid to. And what they're afraid of? Afraid of glad, afraid of twitter, the afraid of the pushback. These people don't want to lose their jobs, and especially in a time when the media is shrinking their layoffs. People become more risk averse, and a lot of what editors are thinking when they decide whether or not to greenlight an article is we must protect the institution of our publication above all else. So it makes for less courage in producing risky journalism.

Brianna 1:14:27

I hear you, though, but I mean don't you think there's a criticism for the other side as well? I mean there is. I know you have faced all kinds of harassment just for like gendering me correctly, I know you have faced all kinds of harassment just for like gendering me correctly yeah, my genderism, my driver's license.

Brianna 1:14:40

I do not see the same structural incentives for the. You know generously calling them the gender critical movement. There's a real mission, I feel, to amplify science Like. Here's a really good example. You know you're seeing AGP used as a shorthand for degenerate.

Brianna 1:14:58

that cannot transition well and never belongs in a woman's space right exactly, and you know, like I'm not going to say like agp does not have a difficult road at times, but you know, I think it's just inaccurate to say these are not people that need gender affirming care, like a lot of, you know, other trans people do.

ben ryan 1:15:17

So I do not see that project working both ways absolutely you know, and it's a big question of how much of the right when it comes to the bans on gender transition treatment for kids, how much of that is authentic and a real belief that they are genuinely protecting children, and how much of that is cynical. You know, after gay marriage has passed, all of those efforts to use that as a wedge issue died sometime past. Oh, here's another great, another great issue that we can use to rally the base. Jeremy Peters wrote a good story about this in the New York Times last year. You know the way they talk about it isn't necessarily entirely in a way that you would consider pejorative or demeaning. It really is centered on the idea of protecting children from something that they do sincerely believe is harmful and that they believe that the science backs them up. Sure, but yes, I think, especially in England, the TERFs, trans exclusionary radical feminists. You know their movement is remarkably inflexible, but one can argue that that is being provoked from the left.

Schyler 1:16:21

These people, they were more flexible before, but they've been pushed so much that it has radicalized them yeah, I don't know, I feel I feel like there's like two extremes here, like we've been talking about, but if I feel like what really?

Schyler 1:16:34

what really bothers me is really the failures of w path, which I feel like you've really covered and it's like undermines our credibility from the standpoint of like, oh yeah, transition can help some people, but when you have, like this approach that you can't challenge them and you have to always like, meet in the middle and you have people in situations that there's clear mental health issues going on and you're still being like, okay, how can we get them hrt and get them down this pathway? It's like, why are you even considering the pathway when you could diagnose and treat these other conditions first? Yeah, and possibly rule that out, like it's.

ben ryan 1:17:09

I felt like your recent article I think it was like the w path audio leak or something like that yeah yeah, it was so eye-opening to this, it was interesting so what she's referring to is somebody leaked me a video from the world professional association for transgender health, or wfh, recent conference in lisbon and it was just basically just a video meeting like we're having now, and it was a group of practitioners from a gender clinic in connecticut and they were they were giving case studies of three different cases of what they consider the more quote, unquote, nuanced, which was a euphemism that they were using for not too clear cut cases of people who are most definitely gender dysphoric and transgender and would definitely be helped by transitioning medications.

ben ryan 1:17:52

And so you see them dancing around it and just never wanting to admit that they were even thinking of saying no to people. You know, one guy was on anti-psychotic medication. Another guy was by gender and hadn't told their wife that they had two genders and wanted breasts, and you know this was obviously going to create a serious problem at home that maybe this person should work out before you know, looking into getting breast implants and taking estrogen.

ben ryan 1:18:18

So it was very interesting to say that they they call themselves partners on this person's gender journey. And the real question is there's this history in medicine of the doctor being very paternalistic. So there's been a shift in recent years to try to move that more towards shared decision making. But the fact of the matter is the doctor has the authority and they have the prescription pad, so it's not an even balance, but they're trying to even it out. But this is suggesting almost that the patient is really leading the way and the doctor is really in the service economy. So is there a role and I know that you've spoken a lot about this that you really support?

ben ryan 1:18:53

Brianna, the classic gatekeeping that has fallen away in recent years. Poor Brianna, the classic gatekeeping that has fallen away in recent years, like Florence Ashley, you know, the law expert at the University of Alberta, is really opposed to and says it's harmful. And so that's the real debate of what role does gatekeeping have and what role does the science have in telling us whether the gatekeeping is helpful or not? And there are so many unanswered questions, in particular about kids these days.

Brianna 1:19:17

Well, I know, ben, this is where I'm really torn on this. So, like when I transitioned, um, I got out of rehab, so, like the hard drugs I was using I was off of that. I was still drinking too much, right? Like just trying to get these thoughts of being a woman out of my head, right? Um, I wouldn't say I had depression, but I was really like severe social anxiety, like I had comorbidities right now, the instant, the instant, the instant, literally, that I got on hrt. Like I have not felt I need to drink a single day since. Completely, I could go out right now and go on a three-week bender and just stop instantly. Like I don't the core cause for like that addiction, that social anxiety, is treated right.

Brianna 1:20:02

So I think it's a fine line that you have to draw with the doctor, like where does, do you know what I mean? At what point is the comorbidity driven by gender dysphoria? Or to what point do you need to fix it first? Right, I think like it's really tricky. But I also see it the other way. Like there's a discussion like legitimately happening on my twitter yesterday with people talking like what, some people are poor. You think you're expecting to go on hrt when that's 30 a month, I'm like sweetheart, like transition is the most expensive thing you're ever going to do in your life. If you think it's only going to cost you 30, if you can't swing $30 a month, you are not going to have a successful time.

Schyler 1:20:44

It's because there's this prevailing notion that it's a right to transition Right and it's that is like the. I don't want to say it's like the toxic source, but that's what's infiltrating. That's the essence of gender ideology. That's working its way in w path where they're afraid to. It's funny because they're conscious too. They're like we're not just here to hand out hormones, we're here to help get an assessment on the drivers, and like they'll play the language. But at the end of the day, yeah, they're. They're too afraid to be seen as a gatekeeper and so they're going to prescribe the medication, even if it's not a a good fit, and there's other solutions that could be had. And it's like the problems run deep and I think it has a lot to do with this ideology.

taftaj 1:21:24

The reason why trans women ought to be allowed to play in women's sports is because they have a fundamental medical need to transition, and it's not just like a lifestyle thing, it's not just like a cosmetic thing.

taftaj 1:21:46

And we have pushed this argument so far that now there's a real feeling within progressive circles, which is maybe somewhat justified, that if you tell someone like, oh you know, you maybe shouldn't transition or you don't have a medical need we have these like nuanced cases where there isn't clear history of, like long-term gender dysphoria the political apparatus built up around that has basically made it so what you're telling someone is you know you have no political right to engage with this gender and no one needs to respect you because you know everyone else has this medical reason and you maybe don't.

taftaj 1:22:29

I really think that the solution here is to move towards a model which bases rights on freedom and self-expression and to enable people to express themselves freely, but then also with that you have to accept certain consequences. Like maybe not everyone wants to gender you correctly, maybe you know you don't get access to women's sports teams. Like you have to accept that trade-off and we've just pushed so far in one direction which is maybe acceptable for some people. You know, science, I think, is evolving on this, um, but it's so clear that we've just, you know, we've reached the end of the road. A little bit on the political capital around this well, sorry, I just wanted to.

kelly 1:23:14

I was gonna say I want to hear from kelly, so go ahead well, I hear you guys keep bringing up the science and it's just like you know I don't really know like what that is, because it seems like a lot of like the, the signs of gender dysphoria, and diagnosing someone with that is all based off of things you say and feelings. I just don't really feel like it's advanced that much at all. To me it's kind of like how do you prove someone's gay?

Schyler 1:23:35

you know you can't really do that, it's just based off of someone saying well, I'm attracted to this.

kelly 1:23:39

So I mean, I feel like anyone could go and follow the W path and like, say the right things in order to get that diagnosis, and I think that's and they do. They look up online, it's very common.

Brianna 1:23:49

Yeah, I think, when my parents called me making out with that boy when I was 12. That was pretty sad.

taftaj 1:23:57

Yeah, well, there are revealed preferences, right, like people who spend tens of thousands of dollars on surgery. You know it's a pretty good indicator that they really value this thing. And I mean ask like David Hume, he would say like you can't prove anything, right, like it's like maybe the sun will rise tomorrow, maybe not. You know, you're getting to like a real problem, which is it's very hard to tell what's going on actually in someone's head. You know, how do I know someone's conscious, how do I know they see the same colors as me? Totally legitimate. But you know, I think in medicine we generally accept that, like you can diagnose depression, you can tell, you know, if someone has gotten better by taking an ssri. I mean, maybe it's not like the highest, you know, it's not like physics level of evidence, but I think that there are validated measures.

ben ryan 1:24:50

Yeah, measuring yeah, right, yeah, I totally agree, totally brianna, you talked a lot about how the criteria in the DSM for diagnosing congenital dysphoria has expanded. The bar has been lowered.

Brianna 1:25:03

Expanded is a nice word. It's a word to the thing. I think it's unshrunken actually.

taftaj 1:25:11

I don't think it's necessarily a problem if people are getting easy access to HRT, but the problem is that the doctors are taking a lot of responsibility for that right.

taftaj 1:25:22

So by prescribing it and making it this thing where, like, we expect the doctor to validate the gender dysphoria in order to give out the prescription, you know, suddenly we're not treating it like cosmetic surgery. Suddenly we're treating it as the doctor is actually staking like a claim that this person is going to. This person needs this medication to improve in mental health and they need to be integrated in society as a woman in order to feel positively, to be, to live a successful life, which maybe that's not necessarily true for all cases. And so you know, I think this level lower level of evidential standard that's okay, but we need to be really honest if we are lowering that and say like, okay, you know, freedom, freedom to control your body but like maybe that doesn't extend into other people's freedom but also differentiating between the ethics of an adult, somebody who's 20s, let's say, who has been for many, many years versus a child.

ben ryan 1:26:19

You know who hasn't even done puberty yet hasn't had that kind of sexual awakening that might help them reconcile with gender versus sexual identity.

ben ryan 1:26:26

If there's a push and pull there and I think a lot of people look at this fairly simplistically, you know m gesson had this quite famous, now op-ed in the new york Times this week in which they argued essentially, which is they had also said to David Revinick in the New Yorker interview last year that kids make all kinds of decisions, and I think that that's a real false equivalence.

ben ryan 1:26:47

And in the New Yorker they refer to things like pointing the ROTC or taking a lot of debt for school, and Gessen was trying to argue essentially that the options for what has been long considered a human right, given the mistakes that have remained in the eugenics movement and sterilizing the quote unquote, mentally incompetent, that sort of thing. We as a society have concluded this based on past errors, but so much of the. We must repair the past efforts that are being undertaken by the people who one could call a gender ideologist is we must not do to trans people what we did to the gays, and I think that's also fairly simplistic and I think that you know gender identity, I think, is harder to make sense of and wrap your head around, than then, at least for for guys, for whether they're gay or not, because right there is a good test of whether you're gay and it happens to be attached to your body.

Schyler 1:27:56

I mean what we were saying earlier, that there's no one way to measure with confidence that someone is going to be happy with a transgender. Yeah, you know with that pathway.

taftaj 1:28:07

Yes, it's very hard to remove all false positives.

ben ryan 1:28:11

Yeah, I mean Kelly. I'd really like to hear some of your thoughts, experiences, how this is for you, having been through this at a young age and, as I gather, you're very happy with having done it at a young age. So how does that influence your perception of whether this is a good idea for other young people?

Navigating Gender Transition and Care

kelly 1:28:29

It's a tough question for me, just because I like to think I'm one of the lucky ones, just because I've seen so many people that did transition at a young age, that did regret it, but but then at the same time, like you know, people on the far left will present me with quote-unquote evidence, which I'm not sure how valid it is or not, that you know, the majority of people who did transition as kids are like me. They don't have regrets. But you know, it's just nowadays like you can't believe any study, you see, because it's just like you never know if it's biased or not. You know, um, I I kind of disagree with with taff a little bit when she says hrt shouldn't be gatekept, because I I do feel like it's just costumery, it's not what I said well, yeah, I'm okay with less gatekeeping, as long as we.

kelly 1:29:11

You know, responsibility falls on the right people yeah, I don't, yeah, go ahead I I just kind of feel like you guys are so like oh well, adults should have access to it, but kids like shouldn't. And that's like a lot of people's hard line, at least when I see a lot of right-wing extremist talk on twitter. But to me it's like I just kind of feel like for everybody, regardless if you transition at 15, like I did, or if you're transitioning at like 50, it should just be like a really slow, hard process to to even start a medical transition, just because I I don't feel like it's an easy decision for anyone at any age. It's such a big.

ben ryan 1:29:45

Thing what about the fact that puberty is oncoming and you're having? You're trying to beat that? You know? Yeah, doesn't that inevitably rush the decision.

kelly 1:29:52

That's, that's the conundrum yeah, sometimes I think I want. I wonder if maybe transition or if I just let my puberty continue further. Who's to say? Maybe I wouldn't have wanted to transition and testosterone would have taken over? I don't know the answer to that question, but I know that I'm happy now and I know that I love my life this way. But who's to say if my parents were more conservative and they didn't allow that to take place, if I wouldn't have grown out of it?

Schyler 1:30:16

I mean, before affirmation therapy took the stage, it was a watchful waiting approach. I mean that's what Ken Zucker and his clinic up in Toronto did for so long until activists basically looked for a case where you know he wasn't transitioning people, transitioning kids and you know, jumped on that and then got them shut down. But that was sort of the standard, like we didn't have to make it illegal in like areas to do this. It was just a very thorough, regimented approach based on time, because there's no good criteria. We need the time component to sort of help assess that persistent motivation. And I think by the time you reach adults it's a little bit different. But I do think that you know the goal of good therapy and medicine shouldn't be to just affirm a patient's feelings. It should be to gently challenge them, explore them and help them reach the conclusions of what they're. You know what's going to best benefit them term gender affirming care is.

ben ryan 1:31:14

It presumes that the care is affirming the correct gender, and so it's baked in. It has baked in a bias, and then you'll hear people try to push their words around. Oh well, afterwards they didn't detransition, they retransitioned, and we're still affirming their gender, because now their gender is just something else. Well, that would be nice if there were entire structure and an insurance system in place to help detransitioners, which there isn't, but I think that's a very cynical misuse of language, and so that's that's why I tend to use gender transition treatment, which I feel is a more neutral term that's something that's important to me.

ben ryan 1:31:49

Um, as a journalist, I don't like the term sex assigned at birth, because I feel it's scientifically inaccurate, and I think it's important to differentiate between sex and gender, because is not what all of you ladies have done, as I gather, by going on hrt working against your natal sex, that's part of the process. To deny that it's just sort of deny what you're actually doing, and I think that that's perfect.

Brianna 1:32:12

I do feel like I have to say it didn't work out for me very well either. I was not exactly a duke from gi joe, like I didn't really take with that super well.

ben ryan 1:32:24

But I think that your sex is one thing, but your gender is another that's totally fair.

Brianna 1:32:28

I I do feel like I just want to. I want to give just a little bit of pushback on what y'all are saying, because I feel like, out of everyone here, I'm the only one that's seen the other side of the book, like what happens when you don't get gender affirming care. And I made the decision to start transitioning when I was 25 and I can tell you what I saw from the people that were, you know, 30, 40, 50 and on up in the trans community that chose not to transition. There was a very, very large cohort of fetishistic cross-dressers. You know they were universally married and you know they had some really scary attitudes towards women. I'm just going to be honest. You had the closet cases.

Brianna 1:33:10

These are AGPs that you know just basically suppressed it their whole life. They would then spend all their time online in these communities trying to suppress this. They had a male persona and they had, like this real melancholy inside of them from like suppressing this side of themselves all of the time, and they had a lot of excuses. I cannot do this for my children or my wife. All of them were into women and I cannot think of a single person I've ever met in my entire life that is, into men in any kind of serious way and did not transition and regretted it in any way. I've just I've literally never run across that. So it's like I'm not trying to belittle anyone's feelings here. I'm just saying, like Kelly, you're a fairly feminine woman, like you just are, and I think if like I don't know, I think like I'm open to giving people time to figure this stuff out.

Brianna 1:34:08

But one of the reasons I really like the gender affirming care model or the old school way of doing things is at every step it requires something from the patient, like getting buy-in, getting agency, and then it gives you something in return.

Brianna 1:34:24

You commit to three months of therapy, then you get hormones, you get on hormones. You can then go to a doctor, take that agency, get your endocrinology check, see if levels are in the right way. Then you can start RLE, do RLE, get a full-time job, then you can start looking at vaginoplasty. So I think like this is something I would really love to stress to all of y'all is I really thought like you've got to understand it was an eye blink ago that insurance did not cover anything. Like I paid for every dime of transition myself and I always thought the moment Obamacare covered vaginoplasty and FFS and hormones, I thought that would just be utopia for trans people and I thought we would all end up well adjusted. It's clearly not happened and I think about this all the time. Why is the trans community have so much more opportunity to go live better lives than ever before Anything I ever dreamed of in my whole life? But we are more chaotic and more psychologically unhealthy and more miserable than ever before and the only answer I can come to is we are letting people in that are not served by these treatments like I can't think of anything else because the people like you, sky, you have this stuff paid for in a way I didn't and like you turned out normal, so don't know, I'm pretty crazy I live with 12 cats for you

ben ryan 1:36:01

you're like, you're a cat lady I am.

Schyler 1:36:05

I'm a crazy cat lady, no, but it's. There is a truth to this, though, that you know. I did benefit from having these procedures, from having a good medical pathway, of a lot of these procedures being facilitated and it benefiting me, but I do think that the actual therapeutic model of gender affirmation wasn't actually helpful to me. I mean, before I ever made the decision transition, I deep dove into the critical narratives of what were the best criticisms of this approach, and that was really what helped me make the decision, because I needed to be sure, absolutely sure, like is this really what I want to do? Because this is a one way street. What?

ben ryan 1:36:46

were those criticisms Like what did you read or what did you listen?

Schyler 1:36:48

to oh I, yeah, I went into like detransitioner narratives and trans, the trans widow narratives, like partners of of most trans women that, um, you know, were divorced from that, and I just saw like kind of like snippets and snapshots of what life could look like for someone in my situation or like what, basically, like you know what are the different, like ways that life could manifest down the road for me, and I realized like I need to get this solved now and I need to get this ironed out. And then the question became is do I want to medicalize my transition or am I happy being sort of in between, with like feminine expression and like lots of open cross-dressing and femininity when it comes to painting my nails and like having longer hair? And through that process, again through like taking time and processing each step, I realized like I don't, I don't think being perceived so I was basically perceived as a gay man for about a year before I actually went on HRT and I was like I don't think this is where my target is, like I don't think this is where I want to land. I want to go the full step and medicalize my transition and as soon as, kind of, like Brie said, as soon as I started HRT, it clicked for me and I was like this is the way, like this works for me, and and then I just yeah, I went and I'm super happy today.

Schyler 1:38:11

But I also recognize like there's always going to be some people that will think I am a man or male, and I need to be okay with this as part of my decision. And that's the part of gender affirming therapy that I really despise, because I feel like they say oh, you feel this way, you're a woman inside, and everyone ought to treat you that way, and if they don't, they're in the wrong. And that, to me, is setting people up for this problem of being so unhappy when things come out and people don't agree with it, and and also, how does that bleed into the just general like plastic surgery culture is that?

Challenging Gender Transition and Responsibility

ben ryan 1:38:43

is that a part of it? I used to watch every episode of 902, of dr 902 and oh, and it always had the same storyline. This person had a personal problem unrelated to their body that was going to be solved through plastic surgery. In the end they were always presented as cured of their problem, whatever it might be. They were shy or they couldn't find a boyfriend, or something like that. Their career would change and so does that mindset also influence people's gender dysphoria and their desire to trench transition. But we can't have these discussions because that runs up against the danger zone of anyone saying that anyone's feelings about their own gender identity aren't anything but totally gender essentialist valid. So that's that's the discussion we're having here now, you know. And the question is I went and had. If I had a big nose and wanted this little small one like, would I really be happy with it? You know?

taftaj 1:39:31

No, I think that's a good point. Go ahead. Yeah, thank you. I think the big difference is that our culture sort of understands that oftentimes plastic surgery is not the answer to people's problems. We can be very honest about that, and I think a big issue with gender affirming care is that we just cannot be honest about it, like you're saying, and so transition at is treated as something that like absolutely will help you, and to say otherwise is total anathema.

taftaj 1:40:02

It's gonna get you thrown out of the room, and I think that, more than that as well, there's just this expectation that if you transition like, everyone needs to be fully on board with that and if they're not, they're exercising, yeah they're transferring, and you know that's a detriment to you as a person, to your ability to survive.

taftaj 1:40:26

You know that's causing suicides and death. And the reality is we're setting trans people up for failure because we're instilling this mentality of like total fragility, where everyone needs to be affirming you, otherwise you're fucked. That's just not the case. People are so much more resilient than they realize, and so I think that we're. You know, brianna, she mentioned that it seems like trans people are in some ways, more miserable than ever. I think it's because, you know, we've moved to this perspective where, more and more, we're putting the responsibility on everyone else.

ben ryan 1:40:59

Yes, yes, external validation yeah yeah, and people are.

taftaj 1:41:04

Just they're seeking value in other people's minds. I saw a tech talk the other day. Someone was saying that, like they get gendered correctly, she her all the time, but they just know in their heads that the other person in their head is really thinking he, him, and I cannot imagine a more toxic way to approach the world where you're engaging in this mind reading and it's not even good enough for someone to refer to you with the right pronouns you need to like know that in their head they got it. So a few things.

ben ryan 1:41:36

I would say so. Laura Edwards-Lieper, you're probably familiar with her, so she was part of the team that imported the Dutch model to Boston Children's in 2007, the first clinic ever to open to give pediatric gender transition treatment and so she is a psychologist and in recent years she's become more of a skeptic from within that is concerned about some of these excesses that we're talking about. She really believes in very thorough assessments. You know spending like 20 hours, all told, speaking with the kid, writing a huge report for the parents, that sort of thing. So I asked her for an article I was writing for the New York Post recently about what the future of the trans movement for kids is in the United States. And I said you know, if it comes to pass that because of the insurance climate, legal climate, that kids aren't going to be able to access blockers and hormones increasingly if they want them, how is that going to impact all these kids? And she said something that totally amazed me. She said well, I've worked with a lot of these kids who can't get these meds, either because of the state law or because one or both their parents says no, and eventually they come to terms with it and they just realize they have to wait and my jaw hit the floor because this was something like totally normal to hear, but you're not allowed to say it.

ben ryan 1:42:49

These kids, you know by and large, will be resilient and this narrative that they will definitely kill themselves bothers me so much and I think this is somebody I spent much of my life suicidal. I know about this feeling. It is the worst feeling in the world. It is a constant drumbeat that you would be better off not existing. It is extremely painful but we know from suicide research that talking about it in a simplistic way and discussing a simplistic cause and effect can influence people's suicide and the discourse about this.

ben ryan 1:43:21

The way that next benedict was discussed, that case was very complicated. You know if you listen to the recording in the in the hospital with the cop when x is being interviewed next instigated the fight. But also next father was abusive and recently got out of prison or something. There was a lot going on in this kid's life, more than just what happened in that bathroom, and for the media and for glad to everyone to capitalize on that and to fundraise off of that was really just totally inexcusable to me. And one other thing I wanted to say is that anna hutchinson.

ben ryan 1:43:53

It was also a psychologist who came from this movement and was part of the gender identity development system, or kids at the nhs in the uk. The clinic that started in about 2011 was shut down last year and she became a whistleblower. She felt that they were not using the proper guide rails, that they were being reckless, that they were using the ideology as opposed to science, and I spoke with her the other day and she said something that really surprised me. She said you know, right now, as we're discussing here, no one is even trying to research a way to properly anticipate whether kids will be permanently gender dysphoric when they're going into this medicalized system or whether they have a permanent trans identity. No one's even trying to research this. Right and to the contrary, people like Jack Turbin from UCSF and Diane Aronstaff also at institution. They published a paper on how to do these assessments according to the WPATH rules. The very first thing they say is this is not to determine if the kid is really trans, and I'm so shocked by that but should not be, to put it more clinically, should not be the purpose to assess whether they'll be permanently gender dysphoric.

ben ryan 1:44:52

And so Dr Hutchinson told me. She said because of this, because there is no proper way to predict who will be the Kelly in this institution and who might be, say, me. And of course, as you said, who knows? Maybe you would have been me in another life. But like, is it better or worse? These are important questions to ask. But Dr Hutchinson told me that she said, absent that system that could accurately predict how these kids will turn out Ultimately, she didn't think that gender transition for kids was ethical, even in a clinical trial, because there's too much risk. And I thought that was you know. I would be curious to know what you guys think of that position, which is very strong. This is coming from somebody who knows the system, so they are very informed call that a radical position.

Brianna 1:45:34

Perhaps so I hear what you're saying I hear what you're saying.

Brianna 1:45:37

I think that's valid. I'm sure if, like, an alternate history existed where my family had let me, you know, like start social transition when I was 16 and didn't care that I was interested in boys and let me express myself, I'm sure I would have survived till I met, you know, made to 18, though I still would have had to have a tremendous amount of plastic surgery and still be too tall. This is the part of it and, respectfully, this is why I think you miss and this is why I worry about the political project I think sometimes you're part of. So if you look through all of human history, like boys that want to be girls are part of human history through 3,000 years of recorded history and, like we've always existed, we'll always exist and typically society does not treat us very well. We are universally a sex working class or like a lower class, that is, like looked down on doing medial labor.

Brianna 1:46:32

There's just the history of trans people and I think it's really easy to say stuff like well, you know people will, you know they'll survive till they're 18. But the problem is the culture of the political project, like if that was a sacrifice we were truly making and we were really getting those kids help like I might be more amenable to it. That's not the gate. Like jk rowling is engaged in a political project to dehumanize trans people she just is.

ben ryan 1:47:04

She didn't used to.

Brianna 1:47:04

I listened to the witch trials and she wasn't them, but she is now absolutely radicalized and I know firsthand how being a cult figure in one of these identity cults will radicalize.

ben ryan 1:47:13

And there was that person who was like a referee for some little sports league in the middle nowhere in england. She just sent all the theories all over the.

Brianna 1:47:21

It's insane, what for sure my point is like I feel like the. I feel like it's actually very similar to israel, palestine, in the sense that the victim abuser order is being switched here by a political project, because it's like trans people, like historically do not have political power.

ben ryan 1:47:43

Trans people, historically are arguing that in the supreme court right now. That is a key argument about whether they count as a quasi suspect class, like women as a women are count as quasi suspects class, which means that if there's a law that discriminates against them, it's a much higher bar to cross to say whether or not it is a valid form of criticism. So that is up for debate very much in the highest court of the land right now.

Brianna 1:48:07

Yeah Well, I wish they'd been smarter about the case.

ben ryan 1:48:11

I don't see myself. I would hate for people to think and many people do, but that I'm a part of a political project and then I'm, and I'm arguing on behalf of dr hodgson or dr laura edward leaper. You know, I do make certain editorial decisions about which voices to highlight and which I don't think are no deserve the light of day perhaps, but it is not my role to argue those positions myself, you know, but but to spotlight them, I think that it look?

Brianna 1:48:37

I wouldn't. I consider you a friend. I love talking to you, I respect your work, I do think you have a point of view and I think a sophisticated media consumer can read your work and like the person you just uh chose like you wrote an article of me and it is a dissenting voice and then you chose to put the person you just mentioned that said those kids will survive if you make them wait till 18, a decade, like three paragraphs highlighting them at the end, and to me that reads as this is my point of view, this is the conclusion the reader should draw. That's fine, it's, it's honest journalism. I'm just saying I do think you have a point of view and it comes across in your work.

Schyler 1:49:12

Yeah, I hear you you know, but I I do try to temper it the best I can yeah, I think, yeah, I, I was just gonna say like, I mean, I think everyone has a point of view, but when it comes to ben benjamin's work, like I find it's so balanced, and actually it's remarkably balanced to me because I'm like I see you taking flack for gendering you know, I guess correct gendering or whatever of trans people, but like people will come at you and I'm just like, oh my gosh, I kind of enjoy it a little bit when they go crazy, because I don't care and I just mute those threads and I'll be like let's have some trouble and I'll just say it is unkind to misgender, transgender people yeah and it'll get like half a million views and like 1200 angry comments and I'm just like going about my day.

ben ryan 1:49:57

I don't, I don't hear it, and because I also don't care, and if you say we're gonna, we're gonna unfollow and block you, and I'd go and block a lot of them because you people are just annoying, I mean, if nothing else, yeah, and I really disagree because and I I agree with that, since that is my sincere to believe that it is unkind for me to call any of you men for one thing would require so much cognitive dissonance. I'm looking at you and like men, no, you know that's ridiculous.

Schyler 1:50:21

It's so wild to me how it flipped from one it was like 180, because it used to be oh, you're not allowed to misgender a trans person, like on the platforms. And now it's the other way.

ben ryan 1:50:31

And it's like this language policing pendulum. Well, what they're saying is that if I call any of you she, I am making a political statement about your sex. Therefore, you have a right to be in the following single sex spaces and that is a threat to women. That's the extension of that argument.

ben ryan 1:50:49

I don't agree with it that slippery slope. And and I think that that's when you hear people like veronica ivy or, recently, zoe zephyr saying I am a biological women, that's a political. Hear people like Veronica Ivy or, recently, zoe Zephyr saying I am a biological woman, that's a political argument. That is saying I am totally inflexible about the argument whether I have a right to be in these single sex spaces and so and I think that that causes a radical reaction from the TERFs Like oh yeah, we're going to start calling you he because we don't think you belong there, and that you can't have a nuanced discussion about like what's the threat if you're both just peeing like there's stalls or other people around? Like is there any evidence of these horrible attacks that you're discussing happening like or is this just a bogeyman? You know?

kelly 1:51:30

do you have any place to say that trans women are biologically women instead of biologically female? Just in the sense that you know we are born with the dysphoria that makes us feel like we are women, so not to say like we're female, but just being born with that dysphoria biologically. That's an interesting way of putting it I.

ben ryan 1:51:49

I think we need languages, I was saying earlier just to be clear of what sex versus gender is. So what I think I'm hearing you say is the way I would put it is is that's your gender and your sex is different, and that's part of the problem. That tension is what causes the dysphoria. And then the HRT or or just cross-sex hormones or whatever you're going to put it, that's to work against and to reconcile that conflict. So to me it's illogical to say that the sex is different, because then you wouldn't need all that treatment, you wouldn't have to have had all this blasphemy, you just would have been a woman.

Brianna 1:52:21

I think, ian Kelly, I know you can agree with me on this you know the grossness of the way that TERFs and gender criticals talk about my body. It is beyond anything. Any man that found out I was trans has ever spoken to me before. Like Kelly, I've seen them do this to you. Like, do thread hundreds of comments talking about if you have a vagina or not. Yeah, I think a really good analog would be like what if someone had breast cancer, had reconstructive surgery and like someone, like going with, like going with them and going like well, do you really have breasts? If you really call an implant a breast, you had your. You know you had all your breast tissue removed. Are you really a woman? I mean, it's like look, I understand that this is something surgically created, but it's really none of your business and there's no need to say stuff like this, like this is really gross to the argument it is my business if, if this person is naked in front of me and has a penis, that's fair so what do you say to that?

Brianna 1:53:19

well, I don't think any cis woman should ever see a penis in a locker room. That is beyond like. The fact that that's even on a table shows how crazy the ideology has gotten. When I transitioned 20 years ago, you never would have found any trans woman that ever, ever, ever would have even been in that space pre-op in the first place. So the fact that that's on the table today just shows how entitled and male-coded this version of activism is like. I don't identify with it at all. I'm post-op. I don't even use like locker rooms and it's like is that that I'm like afraid or like for political reasons? I just got that still like 12 year old. Shame about my body.

ben ryan 1:53:58

Do you feel like maybe you still don't belong? Is that part of like that?

Brianna 1:54:02

no, it's just like I didn't like being around boys when I was naked because I felt such shame, and that's just never changed right. So, um, I just shower at home and skip the whole thing, if that makes sense to your point.

ben ryan 1:54:14

So I've had testicular cancer. So you know, one of them is a prosthesis. So you know, am I half a man, you know right a hundred percent.

taftaj 1:54:22

It's a little ridiculous, but I think what you're getting at about this, like identity and what makes someone a man or a woman I mean, one of the arguments from the trans rights side is that the pronouns and the dress and the identity and what's system, that the pronouns are what legitimize participating in sports, or it's because everyone's operating on this kind of like social version of gender, which is, I think, kind of ridiculous. And so I think we just need to get outside of that paradigm and say, like, just describe things accurately. Like, like you're saying, trans women, they prefer to be gendered.

ben ryan 1:55:13

She and also trans women are. They're a different kind of a woman, and that's okay. That's reality. Trans women are like well, yes, but like in a different way, and it's okay to discuss that way is relevant for some things like sports, like.

taftaj 1:55:27

There's a different biology here. So I mean earlier we talked about like, should gender hormones be more gatekept? I think fundamentally all of this, so many of these conversations that come down to who is bearing the responsibility of this decision, who is it affecting?

ben ryan 1:55:43

Well, sometimes in a court of law if they're sued that will be reconciled, that will be decided so and there are a lot of lawsuits against you know, detransitioner lawsuits about two dozen, and they're not all kids, some of them, the oldest one is 29.

taftaj 1:55:59

Here's the thing I think doctors, if they are experiencing these lawsuits, suddenly that's a really big incentive for the medical professionals to keep a lot more, because if they're going to be held responsible, they don't want to mess up right. And so I think that, like, if you're in a world where the trans person, the person wanting to transition, holds all the responsibility for taking those hormones, then I think the bar for accessing those hormones should be really low. Um, but I also think that, like you, as a person who might want to transition, there's a reason why you might want to speak to a doctor, and it's because you care about getting a good outcome, at least in theory. And so you should want that gatekeeping to make sure that you're the right candidate for hormones, and you should want to, you know, not impose upon. You shouldn't want to, like, flash a penis in a locker room because you're entering someone else's space, and all of this, for me, just comes down to you should bear the responsibility of things and not impose that outcome on other people, in whatever scenario.

Brianna 1:57:04

Taff, let's be honest. This version of the trans community is allergic to any kind of personal responsibility or agency. It's exactly as you said. The culture has moved a hundred percent away from like we can't even get trans gals in the news train, like you know. Like like it's a hundred percent like let's make it so society will recognize all this stuff and no agency on the person itself. It is I. I don't know how we would change that culture. I I legitimately don't brie.

Schyler 1:57:34

This is like that slogan. You don't need dysphoria to be trans. Yes, which is the dumbest thing I've ever done in my life.

ben ryan 1:57:41

Let me play devil's advocate, because I hear people pushing back against you, brown a lot to saying like what you're doing is you're policing trans identity so that only you would get in the door, and that that's not fair. There's so many people who are somewhere in the middle who just want to be kind of a woman, a kind of a man or the non-binary, and they're going to have breast implants but not take HRT. So you know what's wrong with that. Essentially, why shouldn't they be allowed to make those choices for themselves? Why do they have to pass?

ben ryan 1:58:10

I'm really glad you asked this question, yeah yeah, that's a great question, yeah I'm not saying this is my opinion, but I hear this a lot.

Brianna 1:58:16

It's fine, I've thought about this so much and I think they're like. My understanding of trans has like radically expanded in the last two years and I think there are a lot of different gateways to being trans and I don't think we're all the same thing. I think the thing that gender identity dysphoria picked up in on the 80s that I have is a super, super specific kind of gateway to being trans. That's kind of the old school.

ben ryan 1:58:44

Yeah, these existed through all of human history. Very rare like mostly natal males.

Brianna 1:58:49

About right Point one percent. Kelly, as best as I can tell from knowing you, you're the exact same thing as I am and we just are this hyper rare interested in boys understanding this at a really young age. Like, like thing that exists and I think it is expanded and I don't have a problem with the way it's expanded. Like I understand that there are some non-binary people that are going to exist. I understand there are some like more fetishistic cross-dressers that are going to want to experiment with their public presentation in real life. That's fine, but to me the public policy concern is should insurance pay for that stuff? Should you have access to women's spaces? Like, what are your legal rights?

ben ryan 1:59:36

that's when it affects other people paying for it or you know, actually they're feeling in those situations, should they have the freedom to do it?

Brianna 1:59:48

Hell yeah, this is America. I love freedom. That's great, but I think like they are on a fundamentally different pathway and have a fundamentally different problem than I do, these people with autism particularly. I've looked so deeply into the trans women with autism and the way they're different than what I have is, and there's some pertinent public policy discussions there, so maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but my jam is public policy and I think it has to start with protecting the people that need it the most, which are the ones that have a medical case of this. We have to transition. We have to move on with life. This is not a social project. It is literally the oldest version of this that we can identify does. Does that argument make sense to you?

kelly 2:00:37

yeah but do you not think that kind of contributes to the problem that we were talking about a little bit earlier, just when it comes to like who actually is trans, because I don't know if we would call these people trans or I don't know.

kelly 2:00:49

I guess they go by non-binary now but it I would like to think of specifically in the cases of trans women like you and me, brie, who are attracted to men only Cause I know Skye and Taff are bisexual. I believe you know, when it comes to us, who are straight oh, you're straight. Okay, sorry I, but it's like I would think a real way to know if someone's trans, at least how it would probably be back in the day, especially when you were transitioning, brie would be that oh, do you have the desire to have bottom surgery? Do you feel this work about what's in your legs? And nowadays the community is saying that, like you, don't have to have dysphoria about that to be considered trans, and I think it's created a lot of issues. Not that I have any issues with trans people that have no issues with their genitalia, but I I do think it means it's created a lot of issues in society and it means they're very different from who you and me are it's something different and I'm not judging it.

Brianna 2:01:41

It's just something different. I never had a second of doubt that that's something I wanted, and you know it's. I think it's fine for different subtypes to come up, but this is where we need an honest discussion and an honest public policy, if that makes sense.

kelly 2:01:55

Yeah, no, I agree with you on that. I think a huge way to confirm that like they wouldn't have, like you know, regrets in the future, especially if they are only male attracted, is to know if they have dysphoria with, with their genitalia Cause if they don't, I feel like that leaves a lot of room open for them to have regrets in the future.

ben ryan 2:02:22

These are the kinds of questions that are not being asked on purpose by the establishment. They're ruling that out, and I find that very surprising, because it would make perfect sense to do just what you're saying it makes too much sense.

Navigating Activism and Integrity Attacks

Brianna 2:02:37

That's the problem all right, I want to get you a few more spicy uh questions here. I want to make a little drama here, all right? All right, so I want to talk. One of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen on Twitter was the project to smear you as a chaser. Does it? I guess I just wanted to know, like there was never, you were a gay man, right? Anyone that knows you in the hangout like you're 100% gay.

Brianna 2:03:06

To get you denigrated and personally attacked like you're, like this is a sexual thing and transplant. I've always wanted to ask you how did that feel? That must have really hurt a lot to have your integrity attacked like that.

ben ryan 2:03:20

So what happened was Alejandro Caraballo. This is two years ago, about right now. If you recall. There was that series that came out in Reuters about pediatric gender care for kids. I thought the series was very good that came out in Reuters about pediatric gender care for kids. I thought the series was very good and there was one in particular that was about largely Kenan Ross McKinnon's research at York university about detransitioning, and I found the article really interesting because it sounded like something you should really explore. And this was at a time when I was really new to this topic myself. So I went on Twitter and just said gee, you know, at the time I had like 12,000 followers, so it's kind of a bigger account. But I said it would be good to encourage this kind of research.

ben ryan 2:03:54

And Alejandro Carballo found me and just started railing on me. I just made up all this stuff about what I was supposedly saying and it was just insane. She just sicked all the furies on me and one of the things that she said was like oh, and he's probably a chaser which you know, people don't know that you know, the old words was tranny. Chaser was caught out. The first word which not to say anymore. So and that was just an absurd suggestion.

ben ryan 2:04:19

But there was this really big blow up where Ari and I were upset with one another. And I was upset with her because she, as I said I have cancer. I said I have cancer, and she was really mad about this thing that I read in the Washington Post, where I had said that it was a real shame that the American Psychiatric Association was not really analyzing and discussing the nuances of the science of this issue and the way that they once had, 50 years prior about homosexuality, that it really just, you know, internal debate and discussion was how they delisted homosexuality from the dsm in 1973 and that kind of debate is not happening now about these trans issues. So ari was getting really mad at me about having written that and she started listing these things like there were more hypothetical examples of why don't we take away your, your this, why don't we take away your chemotherapy?

ben ryan 2:05:05

And I I had just had a cat scan, like two weeks prior, and I was really terrified that it was going to have recurrence and my life was going to be just like wrecked, and so I was very sensitive at the time and I blew up at Ari and she took advantage of this and presented this tweet that gave the false impression by squishing two things I had said together that I was a deranged pervert who was furious with her because she would not wasn't attracted to me. Oh my God, this is so underhanded and I'm really frankly shocked, because Ari is a public representative of media matters. When she tweets, she represents them Absolutely. There is no difference between those two entities and for her to behave that way in public was totally shocking.

Brianna 2:05:50

She's done the same thing to me. She took a tweet I made to this California.

ben ryan 2:05:55

She has files in every one. It's for the ready. They keep them on file in case they need to use it 100%.

Brianna 2:06:02

But what I was going to say is for Ari and me. I put out a tweet talking about that case in California which is basically saying that if teachers find out that a parent, that child, is trans, that they can't socially transition, that hold on, let me finish that child at school secretly, like behind their back, and they need to alert the parents. Now I thought really carefully about this and I understand I went through most of my adolescence terrified that I was going to get outed. So I very much understand that and considering the fact that my family disowned me the day I came out like it does not surprise me at all. Like my worries back then were well-founded. So I understand that.

Brianna 2:06:43

But I feel very strongly that you cannot say both ways that socially transitioning children at school is innocuous and this is a very dangerous thing. Where people need health care from, it's either got to be one or the other and after a lot of thought about this, I do think that parents deserve to know. So in that situation you have guidance counselors ready to call CPS if that child is abused Like, those kids need help. That's my position and this is a nuanced, nuanced, thoughtful position that I've spent a lot of time thinking of wait already do? She took that first paragraph talking out like the parents need to be notified, and left out all the context of it and destroyed my reputation with a certain crowd, which was a fundamental exercise in dishonesty. And this is my problem with a lot of the trans public figures that they they're exactly as extremist as Gamergate or, you know, free Palestine or a lot of these other like social media cults that have risen up. It is not a force that's in the interest of pursuing truth, if that makes sense.

taftaj 2:07:49

Absolutely. It's vile political ideology that's ultimately self-serving. It supports an activist class that benefits from ratcheting up the temperature of the conversation. The end result is that we're further away from the truth. Trans people end up hurt and we end up pissing off a lot of people.

taftaj 2:08:08

Alienate people a lot of people and it's all to line the pockets of these activists who are helping us, and it's very tragic to me that people like they implicitly believe that you know, trans people need these people to survive and without them we're just going to be thrown to the wolves.

Schyler 2:08:26

I don't think people realize just how toxic and destructive this whole environment I think it caters to that vision of what gender ideology wants at the end of the day, which is to replace biological sex and law with gender identity, and it's an illusion, really, because it's never going to be tenable in actual real life. And this is where they'll play to that, that script. That's what that whole, you know, that whole sphere of trans activism does is. It plays to that script and it promises this and it's like look where it's gotten us. Trump is now elected. There's so much backlash and it's only going to get worse as long as this vision is being pushed this is a good thing like brianna.

ben ryan 2:09:10

I think it's important for people to recognize that that law and these policies in schools in California is not a kid quietly telling their social study teacher that they think they may be trans If the kid socially transitions with a new name and a pronoun? That's what the real consideration is, and I was discussing with somebody just in my own personal life who's involved with the school, and what this person said is we, as the school, are in partnership with raising these kids. We have to have an open dialogue with these kids and this is something that really crosses a certain Rubicon where we have to inform them, especially if we're talking about kids are suicidal and there are uniform policies in place to protect kids against abuse at home, so you don't need a specific policy necessarily to protect against that, because there's already such a thing as mandatory reporting. So, and just to go back to the ari situation to answer your question, the onslaught that I received as a result of her mischaracterizing me in public was so wholly damaging to me personally.

ben ryan 2:10:17

The stress that I went through I it was. People ask me like, what's it like when you get dragged on twitter like this there, and I almost don't want to tell people this like, because it just gives them fuel to say, oh, you really can't upset him and ruin his day, but it's like it's an out-of-body experience. I really often don't even feel I'm within the room. It is so surreal to have that many people trying to ruin your life and to ruin your job and to try to get people to not work with you and that sort of thing. So, yes, ari, you really messed up a good period of my life very successfully through unbelievable dishonesty, and for that reason, though, I I'm not ashamed of anything. I didn't do anything wrong, except for lose my temper in a situation. It was very, very valid, considering that she had brought up my own health history, especially in a time I was really vulnerable about that.

Schyler 2:11:11

And then you say it's unkind to misgender trans people.

ben ryan 2:11:14

Like how do you?

Schyler 2:11:15

how do you balance that, that's amazing to me that you can still I don't know not take the backlash position.

ben ryan 2:11:21

Yeah, luckily I don't. Really I don't think personally. You know I made a mistake in losing my temper with her, but other than that, you know I know my side of the street is clean and I I respect ari's right to be a woman and that sort of thing and and you know I have absolutely nothing against that whatsoever, but I don't respect the way that she comports herself this is a bigger problem, don't you think that trans people have with the media?

Brianna 2:11:45

because look at the way? Um, what's the woman that wrote the gender clinic story, emily uh Blaslon Blaslon for the New York times?

ben ryan 2:11:53

the way we treated her the meat grinder. That was a great story. It was a fantastic story.

Brianna 2:11:58

Very sympathetic to her. We were wildly abusive to her. I have not seen her write anything about trans people since. Like is there? I mean I'm asking you if you can share. Like is there a reluctance of legitimate reporters like you to touch these issues 100%?

ben ryan 2:12:20

There is terror in journalists and there's terror in editors and those terror. There are different sort of motivations. Journalists don't want to have their reputation run through the mud. Once you step over that line and you say anything slightly critical, or perceived to be critical, about gender medicine, you get a page on Andrea James' website. So she has this hate website and there are pages of everyone who's ever done anything wrong About the gender world. And if you're really bad, you get this ghoulish cartoon of your face. I haven't hit that level, but she calls everyone into anti-trans activists and no one knows for sure.

ben ryan 2:12:58

There are theories which I don't want to say out loud about why this is, but she has somehow effectively manipulated the Google algorithm so that those pages are very high on your Google search for your name. So we're talking about professionals who work in media, or psychologists media psychologists you know who are parents. I I had a person tell me that that page about them they're a professor is very concerning. Um for schools, like if they were applying to, like a private school for their kids or like their, you know, parents, the the parents of their kids friends might look them up and think that they're evil. There is an entire system out there to terrify and I was really. Somebody recently criticized me for being hyperbolic about this, describing as a cabal, but I'm sorry, but it is the reason we, that people like me, are few and far between, is because they're terrified of losing their jobs. They're terrified of the reputation being dragged to the mud. They don't have the personal strength to stand there and to be just absolutely destroyed online.

ben ryan 2:13:52

I grew up under the tyranny of a household bully To have somebody who spent their entire time around me to tell me that I was worthless and should disappear and never be heard from. I barely spoke at home as a child, unless I was alone with my mother. I did not speak as a child. So to go through that kind of an upbringing, to survive it similar to, I think, to what you're feeling about your own gender identity you have to develop this core sense of strength.

ben ryan 2:14:18

I know who I am and I know what those people say about me is wrong and think a lot of people, like you know my brothers, will sort of beat on me and be like we're just, this is for your own good. Like we're, we're building you out to be tough and in a way they were right, but, like, thanks a lot. It's not the best, yeah, but like I can take it in a way that a lot of people just can't, um, so it's, it's. It creates this enormous people like ari and and alejandro carbaya who attack us so brutally in public. It creates a very, very effective chilling effect.

ben ryan 2:14:51

They're very powerful, um, and they've been kind of confounded that they haven't been able to scare me off so but I don't want to sit there and say I'm running from a reactionary position where, like, I'm getting revenge on something them it's more than like I will keep doing what I'm doing, regardless of what you guys try to do.

Brianna 2:15:09

I think you've been remarkably measured, given the abuse that you've gotten. Um. So I have a couple more questions I want to ask you before we go. Uh, what do you, as a gay man, make of this lgb? Uh, drop the t movement. Do you consider trans women like us part of the lgbt? Are you an lgb kind of guy or an lgbt kind of guy? I mean?

ben ryan 2:15:32

it is. It is sort of curious that we're all kind of thrown together in a basket because our paths towards getting to be a sexual and gender minority is another way of putting it are quite different. So, um it, in a way it's sort of it's sort of odd bedfellows, but in other ways it makes sense to group us together. So I think that the people um, I'm forgetting the names of their organizations like justine I can't remember her last name certain people who don't, who have these non-profits that do want to drop the t, I think they're definitely representative of that reactionary effect of the extremism on the other side and it's a shame that we can't all get along.

ben ryan 2:16:11

But at the same time, I think what I hear from a lot of lesbians in particular is they're really concerned about the way that the lesbian community used to be is being degraded slowly and there's and divided, and this idea that you can't be a lesbian, you have to push lesbian more, you have to be a man, that they're really sad to see what they thought is their community dissipate. I think it's very different. The gay male community hasn't really changed that much, although I do see a lot more younger guys sort of at least experimenting with sort of great effeminate. You know being very feminine and wearing makeup, that kind of thing. But I think it's not as much and I can't comment as sort of expertly on the lesbian community necessarily so it sounds like a very weak endorsement of lgbt to me I guess.

ben ryan 2:16:56

I guess you could put it that way, because I don't necessarily know that our quote-unquote communities naturally overlap as much as you might think so I mean, just because we're the same age, you know what it used to be, ben, like I mean like I go to a really gay gym.

ben ryan 2:17:10

There's nothing but gay guys there. I see gay guys everywhere. So just in my everyday perambulating, I don't necessarily overlap with trans people or lesbians, that much. So, um, I it's just. That's just my own vision in terms of like what I see from day to day. You know, I'd have to sort of like make more of an effort to reach out, to interact with the other letters and the alphabet people, as Chappelle calls us.

taftaj 2:17:37

I will also say I understand this impulse, because there's the same thing within the trans community where trans people are like do I really have all that much in common with non-binary people?

ben ryan 2:17:49

Or what about asexuals? You know, we're asexuals.

taftaj 2:17:52

But yeah, I mean just, you know, focusing on people who have a gender identity that is like slightly different from ours. Like you know, I identify as woman. They don't identify as a woman. It seems like fairly close and yet I understand that like in some ways there's like a gulf of difference between us and sometimes that's really relevant. So I definitely get the desire to be like you know, I frankly I think lgbt makes sense to group together, um, but I understand how there there are these major differences it's probably that we're seen as others by other people, and so we're all sort of back together because we're stigmatized.

taftaj 2:18:27

I think that's what we all have in common, for one thing and also because it's all, it fundamentally relates to expectations about your gender, right? So there's an expectation that, like, if your gender, you know, or if your sex is male, that you are attracted to women and that you wear men's clothes and that you, you know, don't have breasts and whatnot, but we break that expectation just in different ways, right? And so I think it's very important that people not be pigeonholed according to their natal sex, fundamentally forced into a certain rut in life, and so for me, that's the connection, but I understand that those behaviors are different, and so it's worth you know, I grew up in the 80s.

ben ryan 2:19:09

My mother wouldn't allow me to get a lavender t-shirt when I was six years old. That's one of the reasons you can't really see it. But my, my rug is lavender and that is one of the reasons why it's still pushing back again. I wasn't allowed to have a new female friends after the age of six. The grandfathered in one girl that I was. I'm still with her, so like, and then and then I was like screw this. When I was 16 and I joined a pretty girl clique. It was, it's so much fun and uh and so like. Gender boundaries absolutely affect me as well, but in a different way that they're. They're partly a reflection of my sexuality, but it's not a reflection of my having a different gender identity per se.

Brianna 2:19:49

But I think one of the reasons I am, I think one of the reasons I'm really frustrated by this lgb drop the t movement is historically like no offense. Man, you're great, I love you, uh. But you know, historically gay men have been really shitty allies to trans women like, uh, you know, if you look for the push to gay marriage, um, you know legislating this in states. I invite anyone to go look at the history. What is the first poker chip that the gay men running HRC threw in the pile with every single opportunity to push gay rights along? It was us.

ben ryan 2:20:25

It's kind of like the sucker jets pushing aside the needs of black women.

Brianna 2:20:29

Exactly the same, oh, interesting.

ben ryan 2:20:32

Shirley Chisholm in the 70s and all that very similar now I want to be clear.

Brianna 2:20:36

I see the way that lesbians are treated by this iteration of the trans movement.

Brianna 2:20:41

It horrifies me, like, like, if you're into women, like, god bless, no judgment. But the way it was when I transitioned is there was an understanding that you needed immense sensitivity about entering those spaces and that you were not entitled to be there, that you could earn your space there with a certain threshold of behavior. But like, when I see lesbian friends of mine talking about, like people on these apps, talking about you know, sucking their girl dick or whatever, like, whatever, like it's horrifying behavior. So I understand why the trust has been broken. But I think again, historically, I feel like there's this reversal of the victim, like order here, and historically trans women have been treated like shit by lg and b and it's like it's. This is the time where we really really need that solidarity, because I am connected enough in Congress to have an inkling of what's coming down the pipe and this is going to be a hell of a four years for us. So it just it feels very self-involved, if that makes sense to you so a little piece of history.

ben ryan 2:21:49

So in 2015, when the Obergefell decision came out of the Supreme Court that legalized same-sex marriage across the country, I went down to Stonewall here in New York City. There was this great rally. It was really exciting and lots of speakers, and I always like to say that I was there at the moment that the trans right movement really grew out of the old gay movement and it was like the fifth speaker and it was a trans woman.

ben ryan 2:22:17

I grew out of the old gay movement and it was like the fifth speaker and it was a trans woman. I don't know who she was, but she got up and she was pissed and she said all right, you gay guys like you got what you want, don't you leave us in the dust. That's right. And in new york state, the empire state pride agenda was solely devoted to trying to get gay marriage legalized and they succeeded and they closed down. And that enraged a lot of the trans rights activists in particular, because they felt that they could have remodeled themselves and then that that, in fact, is often a criticism of glad. We've seen these arguments that, oh, glad should have just shut down because you know, gay rights, they're fine now and then they had to go into the trans stuff and now they've gone bananas. But it it really. 2015 was such a turning point that was right when the times magazine magazine article came out with the trans tipping point, with a I was horrified that day.

Brianna 2:22:59

I wish that never came out.

ben ryan 2:23:02

so just that what that moment was really, when what we see now as the trans rights rights movement begins and it was the next year that what's called section 1557 in the Affordable Care Act that the Obama administration changed that to say that you can't discriminate on gender identity, justice with sex, and so that, as you're saying, was how the Obama administration made it so that there was much more insurance coverage for all of us, as you were referring earlier. So tell me, why do you have a problem with that? I met her once.

Brianna 2:23:36

I was once in a show. Because so lovely. I just want to say yeah, um, well, it's because, like, did it work out well for the jews in germany being super visible? I think trans people are always safest when we're kind of invisible yeah, and there's something that's bad to be too stealth, that what?

ben ryan 2:23:48

why do you have to apologize? I?

Brianna 2:23:49

mean, look, there are valid techniques both ways. But I think the problem right now is trans people are so hyper visible and my life was much, much better when people weren't thinking about this all the time, like the amount of information people have like about stuff like dilation it's just astonishing to me or understanding, like the testosterone markers, like like brow ridges. This is. This was not common knowledge 10 years ago, so I think it's so much harder to pass today because people are so much more tuned into the.

ben ryan 2:24:21

It's kind of like how aids made people talk about homosexuality all the time in the 80s. It was for the better in the end, because we had to discuss it, but in the short term it was absolutely terrible yeah, all right.

Brianna 2:24:34

Uh, anyone taff? I kind of cut you off.

taftaj 2:24:36

Did you have anything you wanted to say, or I've got one last question, if you don't I guess, on the note about suffragettes and black women and the sort of desire to cut off one part of the community as at least a bargaining chip or something, I think it's one of the reasons why I feel such a strong need to defend non-binary people or people who are AGP autosexual, I think or people you know who just have have lower dysphoria right. I think that fundamentally, there needs to be an argument that is strong enough to protect all groups right To say that only white women should get voting rights.

ben ryan 2:25:26

I think it's fundamentally a weak argument and it's much stronger stronger ultimately to defend voting rights for all women yeah, people and all people could be different, and that's okay not tolerate, but celebrate difference, which I always want to say yeah, totally, I think you sort of kick the can down the road if you just, you know, advocate for white women.

taftaj 2:25:48

Um, so I I feel that very strongly, and that is just a big part of my approach to all of this is trying to find that position that is more true to what's actually going on here, and so that's why I talk so much about freedom and responsibility. It's hard, it's really complicated, uh, but I think that's where it has to ultimately go. I think that's fair.

Debating Public Policy on Trans Rights

Brianna 2:26:11

I think that's fair. I I think it's sometimes hard like if you're in the public policy space, because who are the? What are the public policy proposals being pushed by serious people for non-binary people? Um, I think when it expands to stuff like the. You know the california law that lets someone non-binary just fill out a form and then go into a women's locker room and wave their dick around, that's a serious public policy conflict that I don't think it serves trans women to be in the middle of. So I'm open to a public policy solution there that works for everyone.

Brianna 2:26:49

From my point of view there there it really feels like everyone, especially in the non-binary space, is such a maximalist when it comes to gender ideology. It's hard to pick the. I'm with you on the freedom argument, but if you're going for concrete, like changes to law and policy and w standards, we don't have any clinical criteria that are worth a damn for, like diagnosing what a non-binary person is, the WPATH like document standards of care on how to treat non-binary people Go read it. It's a page and a half and it just basically says pick your own gender role. So I think it would be easier for me to do that if there were coherent public policy agenda that wasn't just destroy all gender and announce your pronouns, if that makes sense and this is not really about non-binary but just about how the law can be the these conflicts are irreconcilable and judges will have to decide in the sand.

ben ryan 2:27:46

As a volleyball player case, both sides are using title nine to argue for their point of view, saying title nine protects trans girls right to be in women's sports or it protects women's rights to have their single sex spaces, and one side will have to win. This will go. You know, who knows, maybe it'll end up in the supreme court. But this is a serious problem and just sticking your hand in the sand and saying that there isn't nuance on either side of this is not exactly helping the public discourse.

ben ryan 2:28:18

I was in this group of people who were, you know, very. I was talking with a mom who had these, you know very elite swimming children and they all went to major schools they recruited, and she was only talking about, like, keeping men out of, you know, women's sports, that kind of thing. And I said to her well, what is fair for the trans woman, the trans girl or she? Her head exploded and the problem is, like some of these arguments are irreconcilable. One side will have to win. Either you're in or out. This is a binary choice and it's just really painful because you know leah thomas would hopefully have a right to compete as best she can. But the question is like is your right limited? Do you have to swim in the men's division and be, you know, 400?

Schyler 2:29:03

it's that whole question of like does it infringe on women's rights? Or like, yeah, natal women, because it's? This is the problem. I mean, I I see this with like balancing, like tap is put out, like you know, it needs to be sort of expansive and respect human autonomy in the sense that some people might want to like do it might benefit from hrt, but not a full transition. But then when you come to the actual policy implications of granting provisions for transgender women, then you run into problems because not everyone is really fitting that standard of what you think when you imagine a transgender woman.

ben ryan 2:29:36

Like we've all talked about here, there are only men's or women's bathrooms or you know, just single serve. You know we don't have a third option. There is not a third option in sports. So unless we create those third options, either you're in or you're out.

taftaj 2:29:50

Yeah, yeah, I mean I surprised the point totally absurd that the government is expected to prop up women's sports when they are just objectively not as valuable as men's sports and the fact that the government is, like, so involved in this causes so many issues.

taftaj 2:30:07

Oh boy, yeah, which is awesome, and you know, love that for the free market. You've seen these colleges and universities. There's a certain number of slots that are allocated for women and a certain amount of money that legally has to be given to these programs and it makes them incredibly competitive and it distorts the reality of accessing these schools and these privileges because everyone wants, you know, know, a piece of that pie and suddenly it gets really competitive in a way that is probably not natural and so in so many ways, we just need again not not the topic of the discussion, totally besides the point. But I would love to see the government making us less responsible for these issues, because I think if a private organization wants to have, like trans women and women competing together or doesn't, totally great. But the problem is that, like we as a society are forced to buy into whatever the government's deciding and suddenly everyone has a stake in this and a really strong opinion on whether or not trans women are women, which is probably not helping I love that.

Brianna 2:31:08

The longer this show, the more based uh libertarian yeah, I love that, okay.

Brianna 2:31:21

Final question uh, because we got another rest of the show to do, I wanted to do a little bit of healing here on doll cast today. So, the same way that some people were showing you, some were showing tweets out of context that you had made. Ben, I was in a tweet thread three days ago where someone was attacking my girl, kelly cadigan, yeah, on twitter, saying that she had an issue with, uh, gay men with the tweets she had put out. So, kelly, I was wondering if you could just give Ben a little bit of context.

ben ryan 2:31:56

I don't even know what you're talking about. So, kelly, I had never heard of you until this June when I saw your video where you're like in the car and you're saying all gay men should transition.

ben ryan 2:32:04

Oh God, that was a joke that went very viral, and so I don't know you. I didn't know if you were joking, and some people have said that you are. Um, I myself was very shocked by the video. I thought it's very hurtful. So if you were joking, okay, but so I would. I would love to hear from you of, like, what you meant by that video and how you would like people to have interpreted it. What, what, you know, what? Were you being ironic? I don't even know it was.

Navigating Trans Health Research and Critiques

kelly 2:32:31

It was my response to kind of just the lgb drop the t situation. I just kind of, shortly after that video, I made like a whole like stupid logo for like t drop the g you know it's great, it's never too late. Um, just because that it was just my response to them, and how foolish they sounded. I obviously don't think all gay men should transition. I appreciate that, because out of context.

ben ryan 2:32:51

I had no idea. I don't know your general persona, so I didn't know that. I was really very shocked.

Brianna 2:33:00

So are we not going to Ben's house after the show?

ben ryan 2:33:05

And we're going to tie you down.

kelly 2:33:08

I thought it was valid because the LGB drop the T movement. They're essentially saying that people like us, right? Like we were making an ironic statement Gay men Right Instead of just like being trans. And so I was like, okay, well, if you're going to say that, I'm just going to say you guys should be forced to be trans women, especially if you're bottoms, I appreciate the form of performance art in that sense.

ben ryan 2:33:26

So now I get it, you know, but at the time I really didn't. I don't know how you add that little asterisk in the middle of your video. This is a joke, I'm being ironic to comment on the social mores of our time.

kelly 2:33:38

That's half the fun. Half the fun is letting people think it's real.

ben ryan 2:33:40

You're a provoca-treese.

Brianna 2:33:43

Okay. To be fair, though, Ben, I've known a few gay men to have an cervix sense of humor. That's a little bit dark on occasions. I feel like kelly can make a joke or two and it doesn't like I really appreciate that now.

ben ryan 2:33:57

I kind of like the video in a way, because I appreciate that you were being really wicked and I I kind of like that, that way of just like stirring the pot a bit. So the way you were behaving, you came, you were tipper, you were purposely coming across as an airhead, like the way you were talking, you know. And so now I understand that you were being really sardonic, so I appreciate that.

kelly 2:34:18

Yeah, I'm sorry that if you, if it came across in a way that, like, we have a healing.

ben ryan 2:34:22

I love this. Wouldn't it be amazing if, like Alejandro Caraballo, watched this whole video and they're like, no getting along. He's not really a transphobe. What will I do to destroy him? Now? You know it's kind of good, so I don't know All right Final thoughts anybody?

Schyler 2:34:39

I just, you know it saddens me that when people think of the trans community, those are the names that come to their mind. Like I feel, like that's so commonly heard and like you should be able. We should want better research in trans medicine, like in gender medicine. I want better research. I want to know the people that stand to benefit from this transitional treatment, because there's too many transitioners and they seem to be growing that are coming in and saying, oh, it's all facade, it's all wrong, it's just harmful to the body and it's like look, I know there's risks to estrogen. I researched those in depth. That was the whole point of like doing that, you know, exploration before I transitioned and I still wanted this treatment and I fully recognize that, yeah, there may be some harms long-term, but I'm still happier and I would rather choose this than I would have before and I want that.

ben ryan 2:35:31

You told yes, you felt the balance was on this end.

Schyler 2:35:34

You know, you understood the risks, you know right, because I had that informed yeah I was informed and it's like that's actual gender medicine, like info, informing people and giving them a little bit of breaks to like I hate to say the word gatekeeping, but a little bit of that is healthy, it's good, and we got to get away from this model of it, this inevitable, unquestionable essence of gender identity and people and you can't push back at all. It's like no, you need to push back. That's what medicine is and it's helping people figure out that process.

ben ryan 2:36:09

I think the average person on the liberal side doesn't understand that, indeed, the science is weak. They think that that's just a smokescreen. Or the science is weak for everything Like yes, for a lot of things that don't come with these risks, because the risks are so high the known risks about infertility and sexual dysfunction. Therefore, that raises the bar, and I don't think people on the left understand how uninvested the research endeavor is in answering a lot of these questions. They're not interested in creating more effective quote-unquote gatekeeping psychosocial assessments is what they're called. In fact, they're interested in degrading them and getting rid of them.

ben ryan 2:36:45

Boston Children's used to allot 20 hours in 2007 to 2006 about 14 or so for the psychologists to assess these kids and to write the reports on them. That got whittled down to two and a half hours by 2018 and this was kept secret until it came out in a court case last month. And that's really telling. When they're telling you, michael hobbs will go on his podcast and say oh, there's no evidence. Anyone's rushing these kids, the first clinic to ever do this. Boston children's is the most prestigious pediatric clinic in the world. If not possibly in the world, it's definitely in the country. If they're doing it in two and a half hours. That's one. That's one to our appointment with kids and then with their parents.

Brianna 2:37:29

I how can you not call that rushing? It's amazing to me I I hear what you're saying about the evidence that, ben, I feel like this is put out there though to like like it's not my fault, it's not the trans community's fault, that for four years, the main people willing to do research about this are shitty, underqualified grad students, like doing surveys to pass out to undergrads, and that very little nih money has come out of here to do hard studies like. If anything this is. I feel like it's twisted around us, this argument against the trans community. The way I interpret that is this is how little anyone has given a shit about us these are the best people representing us.

ben ryan 2:38:14

Thanks a lot, guys.

Brianna 2:38:15

Yeah, I mean honestly it's. It's like sometimes I I'm not gonna give his name, but there's a mutual friend of ours and he'll often put out, you know, critiques about the, the level of evidence-based medicine for trans health care and like I understand it, I hear you, but like where the hell were you 40 years ago when trans women could have used this stuff?

Brianna 2:38:38

we are out here. We've been trying to survive and many of us have not been like for 40 years. So like, like I wish you'd stop talking not you, but I wish people would stop talking about us Like we're just pulling this out of nowhere, like no one has been helping us. It is insane.

taftaj 2:38:56

Yeah, it's not an indictment on the trans community. That like it's really hard to get these studies and it's very frustrating for all trans people because we want the strong evidence. However, it is because we want people with gender dysphoria to live happy, healthy. Yeah, and you know, therapy is fully necessary and we need that, plus transition, whatever it works out to be. We need to know that and it really is just this like activist group that does not benefit from helping us. They benefit from continually pushing a certain conversation and narrative and attacking and destroying people like you, when you're willing to, like, maybe, raise a flag, quite frankly, in defense of us and in defense of people who might end up as detransitioners. We need people like you, frankly, the only kind of people who I respect, who are willing to actually take a stand for something real.

ben ryan 2:39:59

It's amazing to me, this group of women, to have such a nuanced conversation like this. This is what we need all over the place. I really hope people watch this video. I think people would get a lot of it For one thing, just witnessing people having a dialogue. We're not strangling each other across the airwaves no.

ben ryan 2:40:18

But, granted, we also don't have points of view. If Alejandra Caraballo were here, we would have a different. It would not be interesting. I would totally do that. That was one of the things I had been just discussing with Ari before she flew up at me, and I blew up at her in the spring. I had just reached out to her and said why don't we have some sort of a webcast where we have people of different points of view? She was not okay with that. I don't want to divulge just totally private conversation, but she turned it down. Let's just put it that way and just totally private conversation, but she turned it down.

Brianna 2:40:57

Let's just put it that way, and that's a shame, because that's what we need and not, you know, character assassinations on twitter.

Brianna 2:40:59

Yeah, I mean, I do want to say, ben, like I don't think I would have alejandro on this show, like when we were, when we were designing the show one of the things we decided like as a group is we didn't want it to be shouty like I love me some destiny I watch plenty of those, but the world does not need another like drama-based, like conflict heavy yeah, um, you know show about trans issues and I have people that reach out to me all the time asking to be on here and I look at their social media and I ask for video clips and I'm discussing this and I'm like you can't be an adult, and that goes both ways, like for the gender critical side and the trans activist side. So if you're going to be screaming or you can't act like an adult and defend your positions, this is not a show for you.

ben ryan 2:41:46

Like, like would you have n Nancy Mace on.

Schyler 2:41:49

Oh, I'm sorry, oh, nancy.

Brianna 2:41:51

Mace yeah 100%.

ben ryan 2:41:54

Yeah, she's quite the performance we actually talked about that in our first segment yeah.

Schyler 2:42:04

Yeah, and I want to stress too we're not afraid to talk with people that don't agree with us. Actually, we think there's a lot of value in that, because it makes it more enriching.

Schyler 2:42:14

Yeah, it's gotta be good faith, right. Like we're all respectful here, we're all adults, Like we want to treat each other in that, when that way, and we want to have good dialogue, we don't want to be name calling you know whatever it's called where you that fallacy, where you're attacking the person ad hominem, that whole thing. Like we're. We're trying to get like good discussions across, to get all the different viewpoints to show like what, who is best served by gender medicine and what is good medicine look like? What does good trans rights actually look like? Because this is something I've been thinking about more and more as I'm seeing the clash between women's rights and then issues with children, and it's like what is really good trans rights look like and I like having those dialogues and seeing what others think.

taftaj 2:42:59

I mean, look how Kelly or Brianna disagree with me. It's like it's so exactly. But I think it's so valuable, like love, when they do that, because that is how we create something that is better than like just my you know beliefs or just theirs. It's greater than the sum of its parts, and I think it's so important to have the conversation fundamentally predicated on a respect and a desire for truth, and it's hard to do that if you're talking to someone who's totally dug in, um, who's willing to use those personal attacks so a little bit more interesting when they disagree, you know if I

Navigating Friendship and Conversations

ben ryan 2:43:41

hear rs wish or disagree with andrew sullivan. I love that. You know, one of the things I just like the most about michael hobbs's podcast is it's filled with this yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They always agree with one another and that's just paralytically boring for one thing.

Brianna 2:43:57

Well, it's very easy to talk to you with respect, taff, because I adore you, I think you're literally the best. It's 10% that I disagree with you on. I don't want to disagree because I know, but you know there it is but no, it's good, yeah, yeah, you can disagree with that?

kelly 2:44:14

disrespecting no ideal human interaction, you know so all right, so we could do that, though would she be able to have an argument in good?

ben ryan 2:44:22

faith because I feel like I would be very interested to know that would be very interesting to see that conversation let me work on magic. We'll see what happens reach out to her like that could be really big if you got her on here, you would get a lot of views.

Brianna 2:44:34

I know a lot of people. Ben, that's all I'm going to say All right. I think that's a good place to end it. Every night, Ben, where can people follow?

ben ryan 2:44:43

your work. Okay, so my sub stack is benryansubstackcom. X in Blue Sky, ben Ryan Writer. My website is benryannet. Thanks a lot.

Brianna 2:44:54

I want to thank you. You wrote the best description of me in one of the pieces you ever wrote. I really hope someone goes and edits it into Wikipedia.

ben ryan 2:45:07

Where you're. Like you know, brianna Wu is not here to make friends. Well, what I said was you know you could use that old adage about reality TV that she's not here to make friends. Well, what I said was you know you could use that, that old adage about, um, that a reality tv, that she's not here to make friends, but she is. I mean, you're, you're trying to bridge these gulfs, and sometimes that's not possible, mind you, and because you say things sort of from the middle, you offend people on either side and that alienates them. And what can you do? But like. Ultimately, your central purpose right now is to use the voice that you still have. Considering you have this health condition, it's just like. So it's so sadly poetic is stealing your voice, like you're in a rush to like. Use that while you still have it. I think that's really beautiful thank you, ben.

Brianna 2:45:46

I appreciate that. I think what you're doing is very helpful too, and I think you're one of the best allies the trans community has, and I hope every single trans person watches this and gets the fuck off your back because it's not appropriate.

ben ryan 2:46:02

It's part of the job, but it's unpleasant.

ben ryan 2:46:04

It doesn't have to be as personal I know where my heart lies, you know, and I think, at the core of this, if you are a decent human being, what you say is especially about the kids issue, like how do we best care for these kids? These kids are here, they're very distressed in different ways and we want to have a system that can best care for them, and the best system is one where there's daylight and transparency, and we've not seen that and we've seen the w path has not been transparent and behind the scenes has been manipulating their guidelines unscientifically to win court battles and to get insurance coverage, and that they themselves are fully aware of the weakness of the science and that that's not just a trifle, as it would be if you gave a kid some Tylenol.

Brianna 2:46:48

Oh my goodness, all right, you're going to have to come back on dog house. This is not the last time you're here yeah, this is amazing.

ben ryan 2:46:55

Thank you so much I'm really glad, kelly, that I figured that out, that you were joking and and now I think it's kind of awesome. Sometimes I like to stir the pot too, so it was a kind of performance art. That is was very political, so now I find it fascinating.

kelly 2:47:12

I'm glad we sorted that out.

ben ryan 2:47:14

I really did. I was actually very upset. That game was hilarious. It is hilarious. Now I understand the context.

Schyler 2:47:23

I didn't.

ben ryan 2:47:23

I'd never heard of her, so that was why I just like I was like who is this little A lot?

Schyler 2:47:28

of people took it and blew it out of proportion, out of context.

ben ryan 2:47:32

So like, yeah, it's like how could I not, since I didn't know you. So that's kind of like what the wall you're up against when you're trying to do that is. If people don't know who you are, they don't get the joke you know Amazing.

Brianna 2:47:46

All right, all right.

Schyler 2:47:52

Thanks for coming, ben. I'm going to remove you from stage now. Talk to you soon. We have that. Woo, alright, yep. Thank you all, everyone for tuning in and listening in and hanging out with us today on Dollcast, we had an amazing guest with Benjamin Ryan. We were so blessed to have him here. So much fun and honestly, it was amazing to go over his incredible work and just have a normal conversation and chill out with him. So if you're interested in more things like that, don't forget to follow us on YouTube at dollcastr8n that's dollcast-r8n or you can check us out on TikTok at just dollcast for more content and updates. Until next time, stay fabulous and don't let anyone dim your light.

Schyler 2:48:37

So today's episode is, uh, taff terminated terminated kelly, today's episode is terminated and brie. Today's episode is terminated that's right.

Brianna 2:48:50

Today's episode is terminated and brie.

Schyler 2:48:51

Today's episode is terminated.

Brianna 2:48:52

That's right, today's episode is terminated oh my god, what a great show. Oh my god.