Dollcast E2x01: Cenk Uygur Enjoys Testosterone

What happens when a world-renowned political commentator and a provocative subject like gender identity collide? Join us as Cenk Uygur from The Young Turks shares his insights on the complexities of supporting trans rights within progressive media. We tackle extreme views and the personal toll of public advocacy, with a focus on maintaining open dialogue despite differing opinions. Discover how progressive politics is grappling with its own identity crisis and the repercussions of internal divisions on broader societal issues.

Why is gender identity such a hot-button topic, and how do societal stereotypes continue to shape our perceptions? We get candid about the trials and triumphs of navigating personal experiences and cultural expectations, from the nostalgic allure of the Nutcracker ballet to the modern-day implications of choosing a pseudonym. Our conversation delves into trans visibility, the backlash faced by those pushing for change, and the challenge of aligning identity with societal labels. Through empathy and humor, we explore the role of media representation in shaping trans narratives and the ongoing fight for inclusivity.

We're not afraid to tackle controversial subjects like crime policy changes in California and the broader implications for progressive politics. By examining the intersection of identity politics and societal expectations, we confront the stereotype-laden debates surrounding trans inclusion in professional sports and the erosion of core progressive values. Whether it's discussing the provocative marketing of fashion items or exploring the societal expectations surrounding beauty standards, our episode promises a thought-provoking journey filled with passionate discussions and a shared commitment to fostering understanding in a rapidly evolving world.

Transcript

Brianna 0:07

Welcome to Dollcast lDog\Cast with Kelly Carrigan.

Kelly 0:14

I know you guys are going to tell me I'm crazy, but I think all gay men would benefit from a gender transition. Rihanna Wu. Do you know who Rihanna Wu?

Cenk 0:22

is. It was people online. I said she was Rihanna Wu. I don't remember whoanna Wu is. It was people on the line. I said she was Brianna Wu, so I don't remember who she is now.

Brianna 0:27

Skylar Bogart.

Schyler 0:29

More confused on girls or boys would be a better fit for me, and when you're bisexual and you have the potential for either, you've got to parse that out a little bit.

Taf 0:37

And Taj Tuff.

Schyler 0:51

Having your story heard, having people empathize with you on that kind of political level I think it's really hard to do. It's the dollcast mostly normal women. Hello there and welcome back to dollcast. It's season two and we're kicking things off with a fresh energy, natural vibes and a little holiday spirit. Okay, so Christmas is in just two days. Spirit of the holidays. This past week I had the magical experience of seeing the Nutcracker for the first time. It was a beautiful ballet production that totally swept me off my feet with the nostalgia of growing up and I used to watch, like Fantasia, the original Fantasia movie, and I just loved seeing the music come to life in these beautiful performances. And so I wanted to ask you all did you all see? Have you all been to any like shows, productions this holiday season?

Brianna 1:38

I maybe this is my own stuff, but I yeah, I was a show choir kid so it gives me so many flashbacks to go to theater and think about like being closeted and dancing and doing all that stuff that I just can't do it. So I avoid this stuff oh, that makes sense. Yeah, that's me though maybe that's me yeah, no, that's fair.

Schyler 2:00

Everyone has their own relationship to it. Uh, how about you all Taff or Kelly?

Kelly 2:06

I haven't seen anything. I don't typically go to shows or anything like that, not even like, not just during the holiday season, but like ever. But I don't know what about you, taff?

Taf 2:16

Yeah, no, I mean, I went to the Nutcracker a long time ago and I saw my college's production of it, but, um, I've never, never been since. I think it's something that's sort of appealing like I remember looking into plays that would be performed in the Austin area because I was quite eager to see, like you know, just some of these classic works of English storytelling. Like Shakespeare, I'm always just like obsessed with understanding culture at its very root, but it was surprisingly hard to find a version of Shakespeare that is being presented like seriously, and with kind of like respect and reverence for the form rather than, like you know, a lot of it's kind of like respect and reverence for the norm rather than, like you know, a lot of it's kind of like oh, how do we dumb this down for people, which is just like not exactly what I was looking for. So wait.

Brianna 3:13

Are you suggesting that the, the, the movie with claire danes, like the remake of roman and julia from the 90s, had part run run free? Are you suggesting that was dumbed down for?

Taf 3:24

me. Uh. No, I think it's probably a very high level, as as all of it is, but I just um yeah, I don't know, I like. I like when the performers and the atmosphere feels like it really values the source material rather than it's like kind of making excuses for it, and so that just like bothered me um a little bit and I ended up not going so I had a question for you.

Brianna 3:49

Taff, um, you know, you, um, you know you have some potential high profile writing assignments coming up and I cannot tell you how many times I've been introducing you to people in background. They've been been like her name is Taptaj. What, what's going on here? So, speaking of stage stuff, I think you should consider a plume de guerre, a name that you can use safely in your public writing and presence. That will stop weirdos from coming to your door. So I actually came up with some today.

Taf 4:26

Yeah, tell me, yeah, tell me.

Brianna 4:30

I got them from the utterly ridiculous to the somewhat serious. But I was thinking, okay, I was thinking Bond girl at first. So it should be like I don't know Tiffany Goodhead or Tiffany Goodnight yeah, very Bond. So it should be like I don't know Tiffany.

Taf 4:46

Goodhead Okay, yeah, very, very fun that's lower audit.

Brianna 4:51

But then I was thinking like a romance novel, like a romance novel that would be so good for you, so something like I don't know, like Tabitha and Demian or something like that. Very good, or something, yes, but it's so drag queen at the same time, so I don't know. That's the best I could come up with well, I like the ideas.

Taf 5:14

There's this like great tradition in american political writing of using, like pseudonyms, like you know, publius, which is used by, like alexander hamilton and james madison, um, you just like have so many of these, I think, uh, silence do good was benjamin franklin's. So I think there's like something to be said for the tradition and the history behind pseudonyms, um, and I think that like taftage or taft, is like one of them, yeah, but I I also like the idea of, like you know, adopting another one for sure oh wait, that's not your real name, but yeah, what is your real name.

Taf 5:54

I know shocking um, I go by april to my friends. That's so pretty oh my goodness yeah that's a really good name.

Brianna 6:04

That's a good one.

Taf 6:06

Do you love it? It didn't even really Spring's nice, I think. I. I was interested in the name originally because I assumed that it was a word that everyone knows and so it'd be like easy to communicate over like the din of a coffee shop. I told one friend about this and he sort of like blabbed to everyone else and then everyone just started calling me april, which I had like really like decided on, and then like my family found out also. Like I didn't tell my family to like use this name, but they just like found out like through my friends and eventually now like everyone calls me April and I I've made like very little effort to make this happen, but it just sort of, um, everyone around me was so nice that they all sort of just assumed and then switched to it.

Schyler 6:55

I feel like that's not very well known. Like if people were like, oh, do you know April, um trans girl? I'd be like no. But if they were like do you know Taff? I'd be like yeah, totally like. Do you know tap? I'd be like, yeah, totally like it's, it's. Yeah, I had no idea. You've done a great job at like really putting forth tap it's a really unique.

Taf 7:12

Yeah, go ahead. It's well. Yeah, I don't know. It's search engine optimized because, yeah, no one else in the history of ever has used that synonym how did all of you pick your names?

Brianna 7:24

if you don't mind me asking um, I was born with kelly.

Kelly 7:30

Yeah you, oh my gosh, a male irish name.

Brianna 7:34

Oh you lucked out there, you didn't change your name kelly?

Kelly 7:40

no, because I mean, I don't know, I was just always kelly and it already sounded feminine, so I was like no.

Schyler 7:46

No, I love that, because I also didn't change my name. Are you serious? Yeah, dead serious. My parents actually named me after my great uncle, so, and his name was Skylar, but his was spelled with the U in it, and mine doesn't have the U. My parents were like, oh, it's too many letters, the U's unnecessary, and so they dropped it and so I'm just Skylar with just the Y. Yeah, yeah, it worked. I lucked out too, because I didn't need to change it.

Kelly 8:18

Now did you have to change your middle name at all, because I just kept mine, because I was lazy.

Schyler 8:22

I just kept mine because I was lazy. I just kept mine. I like no, I never use it.

Taf 8:27

Same here, Like besides, it never shows up. Is it good head?

Brianna 8:33

Is that your little name?

Taf 8:36

That would be crazy. You have like some great uncle names Matt.

Brianna 8:44

You know it's so embarrassing for me, but I had one name I'd picked out and I was thinking about it and I was in college at the time and I had an English TA and her name was Brianna and she wasn't particularly interesting or pretty or you know, like whatever. But I was like and I started thinking about it. I'm like that's a really, really, really good name. I like that because it's brief or short. So this one just rando english ta I had, I completely stole her name and went to the courthouse that day like this is a problem because I make decisions like that way too quickly.

Taf 9:18

So I love that like yeah, I was afraid of stealing someone's name, I know.

Kelly 9:25

Oh yeah. Yeah, cause you want to feel like your own name.

Taf 9:29

Yeah, and I feel like there's like I don't know. I just feel like it would be awkward if I like told someone like oh, I have your name now and so I like that was like a huge barrier, like, oh God, I can't choose that name.

Brianna 9:41

I know a girl named that what are like the most common trans girl names, because it seems like everybody thinks like Lilith Kira. Sophie, sophie but those are good names too.

Schyler 10:00

Yeah, good names. Yeah, that's why they're chosen. Yeah, it makes sense.

Brianna 10:05

How did you get april? How did you pick april?

Taf 10:11

I just I sort of like month names, so I also like june, I don't know august and whatnot, like autumn, um, and then I also liked that it was like, like I said earlier, a word that people know, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's used also in other languages, so it translates well, so it's kind of strategic in that sense. But I'm not born in April or anything, so it's not the most optimized name. But again, it just sort of fell on me Because I mentioned it and kind of like played around with it, but suddenly, as everyone was calling me it, so it's so good, it's very pretty yeah, it's a beautiful name.

Kelly 10:55

Well, I was kind of, I was curious, do you? I don't know if I just didn't hear you, but do you prefer to be called tough by everyone or do you like april?

Taf 11:02

I think you can call me either. Um, yeah, I don't have a strong preference really oh, I like the name.

Kelly 11:09

I would love to call you april. I mean, that's such a pretty name. Yeah, yeah, I agree yeah, I don't know.

Brianna 11:16

I want to respect taft too, like it's such a good internet name, like you. Just say tough, everyone knows who you're talking about exactly.

Schyler 11:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that the name you're going to use for these writings?

Taf 11:30

I would love to like preferably, but I will use like a more proper name if they insist so yeah that's fair.

Brianna 11:37

That's fair spoiler how do you feel about people calling you for short? Because I think one of the really fun things about having a girl name is like the short version of it that your friends call you. I just take so much delight in that every single time someone does it and calls me brie which like frustrates me my husband will not call me brie. He thinks it sounds like cheese. I'm like why, if he knows?

Taf 12:01

why no?

Schyler 12:04

he just won't do it.

Brianna 12:05

Okay, yeah, do you like being called Sky? How do you feel about that?

Schyler 12:08

Yeah, oh no, I have like no attachment. I've had a lot of people ask me, like which do I prefer more? And honestly I don't care at all, like it's whatever's more natural, what's easier, and I mean, like I like the Sky, like I have no problem with Sky, like the sky, like I have no problem with sky, like, but again, it's easier, um, and the funny thing is, like all my brothers, um, so all my siblings are brothers and they're all their names end in er, so hunter, taylor and walker, um, and so, like, my parents started this trend with the, the urs, and so that's why, like, a lot of people will say my full name, but people who don't know my family will often shorthand it to Scott.

Taf 12:46

Yeah.

Schyler 12:48

Yeah, but I'm not attached to either, doesn't matter.

Taf 12:54

Have you guys ever seen a trans woman who just has like an awful name? You're like, oh no, oh no, she's going to haunt you for many times, adora. Adora Like the character right.

Schyler 13:06

Like.

Taf 13:07

Dora the Explorer.

Schyler 13:07

The.

Dealing With Identity and Stereotypes

Taf 13:08

Netflix show. No, I don't actually know, I've never seen it. It's like a Wonder Woman show or something like that. Yeah, I also had to really resist the urge to go like LARP-y with it. Like some trans men will go for names like Lilith Lilith is kind of like a LARPy with it. Some trans men will go for names like Lilith Lilith is kind of like a LARPy name. It's not really a name, it's very common, but especially trying to avoid names that other people have, I was really reaching. Another name that I considered was like Aurelia after Marcus Aurelius. Just like the Roman author, feminine version of that is Aurelia. Just like the Roman author, feminine version of that is Aurelia. It's like very pretty, it's beautiful, but no.

Brianna 13:48

No, yeah, that's like an outing you name instantly. Do you know what I mean? Oh?

Taf 13:55

I do think it's like it's so bold and as I get older I like appreciate like boldness a little bit more than I did. But yeah, I was like I that was another big thing for me. So I just didn't want to choose a name that was like meaningful me, meaningful to me at the time, that I would like hate in the future because I'm like that was like such this specific time in my life.

Schyler 14:21

So yeah, it's got to be a name you can keep with you through all your life stages and feel good.

Brianna 14:26

And one that doesn't set off like alarm bells. Right, it should be under the radar as much as possible. Hey, do you know what's not under the radar? Jk Rowling going after our show.

Kelly 14:38

Yeah, yeah, that was a bad time. I feel about that.

Brianna 14:43

Well, I think we should tell people what happened, just in case they didn't catch all the twitter drama sky. Do you want to kind of give a summary of them?

Schyler 14:51

yeah, yeah. So I mean, really it just started off, I feel like with your tweet breathe, like you put that out there and it was just like an original post about us talking about our hair and how that's like a variation of women, and it was pretty benign, although it was kind of playing onto the stereotype and of course that was strategic, right, like it was intentionally that way because we knew that it would get a reaction and sure enough. But I didn't. Okay, I'll admit I did not think it was going to go as far as it did, but jk rowling reposts it a screenshot, screenshot of it, and it says never forget gender identity isn't about sex stereotypes, but playing around with your hair proves you're not a man. Playing sarcasm on this whole, you know element on basically just the stereotype definition and saying like doesn't make you a woman, right, and trying to be super, you know pinpoint on that, which is true.

Brianna 15:45

I, I mean that's true to an extent, yeah, but it also feels like you can't win. You know, um, I mean like even as we're speaking, a top turf is going after like old pictures of me before ffs and going like we know what a woman looks like. So it's like, how am I supposed to Like if I take hair and eyebrows and face shape and makeup and all this stuff really seriously? I get criticized for having conversations about that stuff with you guys? If I don't, then that also means I'm not a woman.

Brianna 16:17

So you know, I think what I was trying to say isn't so much like you yourself any person out there needs to make these choices to be a woman but rather like, if you listen to the show, the way we interact with each other is like it's just very natural and I think, like we have the kind of relationships a lot of women have with each other and I think that shines through to the point. I would like ask people to look at this and say do you really think any of us would be happy if you forced us to be men with public policy? This is just authentically who we are and that's the point I was trying to get across.

Taf 16:56

Yeah, I think there's a reading of your tweet which is not really that talking about hair makes you a woman. But talking about hair is just a very universal thing that lots of people speak about and it's very normal to do and is indicative of the fact that trans women, like anyone else, have sort of mundane life things that they deal with which are, just like you know, there's a commonality between people and it's not even like a woman thing necessarily.

Taf 17:29

Lots of guys, especially, like you know, I've been watching queer eye with my girlfriend and, like jonathan van ness is like this, like gorgeous mane of hair which obviously takes a lot of time to take care of, yeah, very sweet person, and I think that, like you could easily look at you know, jonathan talking about hair, and be like, oh, look at this, like you know, not a weird sex pervert, just like a normal person who has these sort of normal concerns, and so that's how I interpreted your tweet.

Taf 18:00

But I do think that, like I mean, obviously herfs are just you can't win by appealing to them because, like you're saying, like, if you try to mention like, oh, you know we have this common humanity and caring about our hair or whatever, then it's you're saying that like that's what makes you a woman and like this is what you're basing identity off of. Like you know how shallow and ridiculous and stereotypical of you. But then you know, if you don't look sufficiently feminine, then they weaponize that against you as well, and they would never weaponize that against, you know, a cis woman. So it's just people play dirty and are willing to say whatever it is in order to you know, embarrass you or attack you.

Schyler 18:44

Right, yeah, and I feel like it's it kind of comes down to how, like, what womanhood means to a trans woman.

Schyler 18:52

And it's, like you know, because we are male, we're biologically male, right, it's like there's a societal recognition of womanhood that often depends on those stereotypes to a degree.

Schyler 19:03

I mean, like you know, they're stereotypes for a reason and it's because they're associated with females and you know, I think, as trans women, we sort of, you know, are looking to align ourselves with those cultural markers to an extent and for many of us it's natural already, like we were saying, we were having that conversation about hair and it was so easy and I feel like that could just easily mirror a cis woman's conversation. But we understand too, that part of our recognition as women comes with those stereotypes and conformity, more or less, and so it's like you know, it's fun for us to accent that and to show that and to just, you know, reveal that about ourselves and talk about that, and it it makes it and this is why I think there was such a visceral reaction is that it tempts people to more easily be like, oh yeah, they go in the woman category and you know, they just can't have that, they just cannot have that.

Brianna 19:59

That's like what it comes down to I think if the four of us were having lunch in real life, most people would just walk past the table and not think a thing. Right, I genuinely believe that and I just I don't know. It really feels like you said you can't win. Kelly, did you want to say something? Because I was going to talk about one of Rattling's tweets in a second.

Defining Womanhood Beyond Stereotypes

Kelly 20:22

I mean, in a world where, like you know, gender and sex are two different things, like I mean, gender is just completely based on stereotypes and I don't I feel like the trans community has always kind of admitted that. I mean I don't know why, like they act like it's some gotcha, like oh see, you're talking about doing your hair. Like that just means you're not really a woman. It's like no, like everything you've been taught about being a woman like outside. Think someone as big as jk rowling would at least, like who's been in the game for so long now you think she would know how to not like fall into a trap like that. And she just gave us crazy promotion for for you just doing a really basic tweet. So I just think it's pretty crazy in general that even happened well, I I want to respectfully push back just a little bit.

Brianna 21:25

Something I've noticed, particularly for women in their 40s and after they have children, is, I think, for us, because we can't have children, we don't menstruate and do things like that. I think it's easy for us to forget that. You know, like there's a biological element to being a woman and I think for live TERFs who are parents, they felt their body change after childbirth. You know they think about maybe the fears of getting pregnant throughout their life, or you know these fears that are uniquely biological and I do think that as women get older, that biological element is more important to them. Where I think my objection would be it's not either or, like I think all of us fully admit the biological aspect of that is important. I think most of us wish desperately we could experience that. It's just like there is a social, communicative effort to, or part of being a woman.

Taf 22:28

That is, um, it's hard to put your finger on, but you know it when you see it yeah, yeah, but I think the problem, though, is that, like a lot of feminists, a lot of old school feminists like jk rowling they grew up in an environment where they're really trying to fight those expectations, and so the fight for so long has been to show that women don't have to engage in the behaviors you're talking about, or care about their hair, in order to be women, and so, by justifying one's womanhood based on those factors, you are really, you know, going against their sort of political project, and I think that's a deep tension that we're hitting on here.

Schyler 23:17

Yeah, for sure. I was just going to say like it all comes down to. Do you think there's any kind of definition based on stereotypes or no? And that's where they're. Like you just said taft, with the history of, like the women's rights movement and all of that, it's like very, this very bio-essentialist, like women are, are born, not made um, I've seen that, or like things like that. And it's like well, why can't it be an expansive definition like, can't it be like yes, you Like. Can't it be like, yes, you're born female. Like, okay, yeah, you're a woman. That's, that's fair. Like that no one is saying like, even if you act very masculine, you're not a woman. Like, no, that's not what we're saying. We're saying that there can be an overlapping definition here that brings in those that do sort of get associated with the stereotypes and are understood that way, particularly if they've modified their secondary sex characteristics, which is exactly what medical transition does. And so it's like can the two definitions co coexist or is there, like we just said, like a natural tension that prevents that?

Taf 24:20

you know you're never gonna get. I certainly I will. I mean, I certainly am very spicy.

Brianna 24:24

Nope Ever.

Schyler 24:26

Yeah.

Brianna 24:27

What were?

Taf 24:28

you going to say Taff?

Taf 24:29

Oh, I have very, I think, spicy opinions on this.

Taf 24:32

I mean, I wrote quite a long essay about how you know women or trans women should maybe be a little bit less concerned with, you know, the label of woman itself, and in that essay I discussed some of the problems with identifying womanhood with sex stereotypes and ultimately, like my conclusion in that essay is that, like it really, you know, definitions of womanhood that aren't biological fail in a lot of ways.

Taf 25:06

Um, either they end up being sort of like exclusive sex, stereotyped, um, or they're just like totally vacuous, and I think that that is a really difficult problem to get over, and I think maybe my question is like why does it matter so much if we are labeled as women? Because I think that if you're allowed, you have the rights as a human to have ownership over your body and to take the hormones you want and to get the surgeries you want and to present the surgeries you want and to present the way you want and to be feminine. All of that is what really matters to me, much more than the specific label you give it, and so to me it seems like I'm not super attached to the label of woman necessarily.

Brianna 26:07

And I've never quite understood the intense attachment to it. I think I mean. Go ahead, kelly, please.

Kelly 26:10

Well, no, I was just saying it's tough because, like, I get what you're saying like to a degree. It's like, what does the label like really matter at the end of the day? But it I just like you don't like get like the feeling of like like it wouldn't bother you to call yourself like a man, I guess is what you're saying Like at the end of the day, if you could like live your life the same exact way, being called a man wouldn't bother you, Cause I feel like it would really bother me. It wouldn't bother you. Though, See, and that's where it's kind of like tough, Cause I guess I've like never really thought about it. I guess it just like validates my identity and the experience I think I go through as a trans woman or just as someone living with dysphoria in general. So do you not feel that at all? Like it?

Taf 26:53

just there, there's no pushback here's what I think is going on is that when we navigate the world day to day, we use these sex whether someone's masculine or feminine, like a female or like a man to categorize people, and so we sort of put people in these categories of feminine, woman right and we label people that way. And I think that when we call ourselves a man or a woman, we are communicating, on one level, something about the kind of stereotypes that we're fitting into, because that's practically how we tend to use the terms, and I think that what I would chafe against is being labeled as masculine. I wouldn't want to be labeled as masculine because I prefer to be seen as feminine. So I think when some people call you a man, it feels like they're saying you're masculine. Now I think what's interesting is that in this conversation we're all quite comfortable with saying that we are male right.

Taf 27:58

No one here is just like that, because we accept that males can actually be very feminine and present in like a feminine kind of in a very feminine way. And so I think that if you use a definition of male that is equated totally with man, then I think I would feel exactly about the term man as I feel about male right and I think it's only because we sort of are actually using man and woman to refer to feminine person or masculine person maybe erroneously that we have this internal resistance. So to your question I think in the world where we use man and woman just to refer to biological sex, it would not bother me at all in the way that I'm not really bothered by being called male. But in the world where we use these words sort of ambiguously, it might frustrate me a little to be called a man because I might feel like I'm being called masculine.

Kelly 29:00

So would being called a feminine man not bother you then in the real world?

Taf 29:05

Yeah, no, I don't think so.

Brianna 29:08

It would bother me. It would bother me, yeah.

Schyler 29:11

I empathize with Taff on this, because I feel like I'm like a ping pong ball on this whole categorization thing, Because it all comes back to what Taff just said, which is like do you think male or do you think man equals masculine and woman equals feminine, and because in the social categorization of our brains that is sort of what's going on, you know when reading things and reading people, yeah, but in a literalist sense, like no, like it's not true.

Schyler 29:40

I've seen some, like Jonathan Van Ness, great example of ultra feminine men that are just like sure, just beautiful souls and lovely, and you know, I think that's why, like, I guess, yeah, feminine man wouldn't offend me.

Brianna 29:55

I have to push back on this Like I do. I'm sorry I got a little bit like, okay, so this is this is my opinion on this. I don't know what she's saying. This is my opinion on this. I don't know what she's saying. I'm a biological male, but you know, at the same time, like I transitioned and if people don't know me, if I'm going throughout my life, I get called she, her, just naturally. It is the way I look, it's the way people assume me to be. That just happens and I love.

Brianna 30:21

There's a short powder taco video where he like, if you have to say you're the thing, you're not the thing, and I think, like, ultimately, the best indicator that you are the thing is the way people treat you as you go through life.

Brianna 30:34

I think there's a political project by JK Rowling and her friends to call us men, and I don't think it's about biology, I think it is to dehumanize us and I think it is tapped into this deep British class system that they are still like wrestling with today and it's just to put us in our place. So, and the thing is, as I go about my life, like, my chromosomes are not the most relevant part of like my life and you know, if you're asking, if you're putting me in a situation where people are outing me constantly like there's a certain cost that is associated with that in terms of discrimination or how I'm treated. It's why, like you know, it was a lot easier for me before I talked about being out publicly right, my life was exponentially better. In fact, I would recommend most people like transition go stealth, don't talk about it. That is the best course of action. So I just I have no problem admitting the biological reality. It's that their intention here they're not my doctor Like the intention is to dehumanize us.

Taf 31:51

So why does it feel, do you think dehumanizing, to be called a man?

Brianna 31:56

Well, I think the gender dysphoria is. You know I wanted to be something and it hurt a lot to not be that thing. I understand I can't wave a magic wand and make myself menstruate, but you know I can get as close to that as I can. And you know, I think I'm legally a female. I've had, I've breasts, I have a vagina, I'm married to a man. I think I'm as close as we can get with this technology today and I think it's just about respect.

Kelly 32:28

Yeah.

Taf 32:28

I agree, yeah Well, I mean, I guess there's one thing which is maybe it's like inaccurate to call you a man on some level, right, which I think what I'm hearing from you again and again is that you're saying it's accurate to call you male, right, but inaccurate to call you a man, which means that there must be some difference in how these words are being defined.

Taf 32:49

And I would just say that in the world where we define these things the same, I have no problem with being called a man. I think in the world where we define man based on stereotypes, I think it's just inaccurate, right. And so if we go with a stereotype definition of man which again I don it's just inaccurate, right. And so if we go with like a stereotype definition of man which again I don't necessarily think we should, I all for sort of like deconstructing these stereotypes and allowing people to live how they want. But if someone uses man with the stereotypical definition of mind, I would just say it's inaccurate to me and I would dislike it for that reason. But I think that insofar as turfs are like serious about equating these two things, it doesn't bother me to be called a man yeah, I think.

Brianna 33:35

I mean, I don't know, I think the ball is giving them too much credit, though like yeah, yeah that.

Brianna 33:41

But I also I think you don't get this at the volume I do Taff, like it is just the amount of abuse I got from JK Rowling after this was just astronomical, you know. And again, their mission is not some academic discussion of biology, it is a vengeful, rage-filled mission to dehumanize us. And this takes me to I wanted to talk about JK Rowling's tweet that she put out just a few days ago. Y'all, like, please remember.

Navigating Transgender Perspectives and Boundaries

Brianna 34:13

Jk Rowling originally started like her defenders love to quote this, like she's not transphobic. She just says dress as you please, dress, you know, however you want. Here's a tweet that she put out a few days ago and we'll put it on screen here so people can read it as we edit this segment. But in this she's changed this a bit, she's updated it and she's no longer saying dress as you please. She now says dress as you please, in private and in public. We have the right to push back on this, because children shouldn't see fetishes and you know, some people want to be serial killers and we don't affirm that wish and that's why we need to start pushing back on the trans community. This is flat out eliminationist talk. She's not making an argument about biology anymore.

Taf 35:11

She's talking about pushing us out of public life, and that is a truly extremist, trans eliminationist point of view yeah, yeah I think this is where turfs really start losing people, because it's just, you know, the idea that you would strictly regulate people's gender presentation is something that, like most people just see on its face, is totally absurd. Um, yeah, not, not something you could even like practically do, um, and if you did do it, you would end up reinforcing the exact sex stereotypes right rolling, really dislikes. So it, yeah, it would be totally at some point.

Brianna 35:57

This is just the same mirror. Like I am against using birthing person because I think it's dehumanizing to refer to women as though they're just walking uteruses. That's deeply dehumanizing to me, and Rowling's argument is really just basing women on their body parts, which just seems so crude in my opinion.

Kelly 36:24

Well, that's how the tariffs have always been. It's always been. What you were born with between your legs is what you are and there's no, there's no, anything in between with them. You know, yeah, the whole birthing person thing it's. I go back and forth on the topic because I I understand that, like most people in the community that use that term are not like putting it towards cis women, they're just using it towards trans men that happen to get pregnant. And while I understand that perspective, it's just it's hard for me to even understand a trans man like wanting to go through a pregnancy in the first place. Yeah, so yeah, it's just a weird topic to me all around, because then every time I get to that point, it's like any trans man that's willing to carry a pregnancy, it's like I'm sorry, are they even really trans at that point?

Brianna 37:12

Yeah, Well, I don't know, Skye Like you're looking at having a child with your partner, so that's got to be weird for you. That's got to bring up some stuff.

Schyler 37:22

Yeah, it has me thinking about you know what's my role like with when it comes to raising my kids. Yeah, I don't have to go through like the whole experience of what a female would have to go through being pregnant and all of that, because that's way more involved, like from a biological perspective. But I guess, like you know, I have thought about like you know, because technically my kids will have two moms what that would look like and what they'll call me, how they'll differentiate us, etc. I'm not too worried about it, I'm just kind of like figure it out on the go, but I mean, that's the only way to have kids in this scenario anyway. Um, so I'm just kind of like, well, biology does matter to an extent.

Taf 38:12

But part of being trans is transcending that too, by different things. So like that's fine, right, yeah, to some extent like if you are just bothered, you know, by being called a man or being called male and that's just like the end of the story for you, I think that's like also like a legitimate answer to just be like well, I'm just like, you know, I don't like it personally. Now, yeah, I think that like that's totally fine to say and you can have your own sort of personal boundaries with people, and I think that that's totally respectable to be like. You know, if you're going to be my friend, I want you to call me a woman, right, and I want to agree on this shared use of language, that when we use woman, we mean like someone. That includes the kind of person that I am.

Brianna 38:55

So I think that that's like okay at the end of the day, I mean, if we are trying to all of us here, I think it's important that, as we're talking to our women friends, we respect them, which is why we would never say birthing person. Or if someone tells me the cis bothers them, I don't get it. I'll say biological women instead. It's just respect and I think that same respect is. I don't consider, like Kelly, the thing you said a long time ago. You can't even remember being a man at this point. I feel the same way. It's like a dream, it's like a version of myself. That's so long ago I can't even remember it. I know Cenk is about to get here, so I wanted to talk about this part of it before he does.

Navigating Trans Visibility and Backlash

Brianna 39:37

How did we feel about the way the trans community responded to this? Because I really thought there was a lot of bad faith there. You know, when Rowling attacked me, I wrote something that you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was very cordial and open and measured, sending back to her, trying to open up the door and have a conversation, and I got probably five or 600 tweets saying welcome to the leopards eating your face. Party, brianna. You know like, haha, look at this happening and it's like, do you not? Does the trans community not understand? Like there's a story out there about trans women, just like, what do you expect me to do? Scream, call her names, say, send the same death threats? The trans community has been doing like we started the show for dialogue and being reasonable and I don't know why people are so stunned. That was my reaction back like am I just losing my, my mind here?

Kelly 40:42

no, people have a weird reaction to centralism when extremism is leading like both sides.

Schyler 40:48

So yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all I think there's this viewpoint that any degree of compromise or dialogue means you're forfeiting your position, or like you're forfeiting your own, um, like the direction that we all want this, like this identity group wants things to go, and the fact is, is that that's one, not true? And two, it's like how are you ever supposed to get people Because the world is not comprised of just your identity group how are you supposed to get people in other groups to understand and buy into the mission that you have for your group? And it's like through dialogue, through open conversation and through understanding each other's viewpoints and building bridges. And this is why, like, look for all the things they'll say about oh, you're just being a pick me and the leopards eating your faces. Comments Like I just, I have so much I could say, but it would just be like, look, your tactics have not been working. They have not been working. They're going.

Schyler 41:50

Like trans rights is down, Everything is down. Like, when it comes to LGBT rights, we're down, bad, yes, Like why do you think we're out here on a platform now? And I mean, I was living comfortably, just like you, Bree, in the closet. I was living comfortably, just like you, Brie, in the closet not in the closet but, like you know, stealth, not making a big deal, talking about trans stuff. And then you know having to kind of sacrifice that big time for the sake of just showing what real trans integration and visibility should look like and it's you know, it's sad that it can't be received better, but I think it's also a bell curve and I think we're going. I think it gets worse right now but as things improve, hopefully that perception will will improve too. Yeah.

Taf 42:36

Yeah, it's really tragic.

Taf 42:37

I mean it hurts more, I think, when progressives and like trans positive people are sort of like down on you, cause, like you know, if a gender critical or a ter are sort of like down on you because, like you know, if a gender critical or a terfy person is like hating on me, it's very easy to just like brush it off and be like whatever.

Taf 42:53

I think it hurts a lot when people who you perceive as being like on your side and really advocating for are, like, um, engaging in what I think are, quite frankly, like destructive ways and you know they're killing any attempts at sort of mutual understanding or bridge building. I think that's really frustrating. I've had this experience telling people over and over over the past years like listen, the way that we're talking about adolescent transition is like not working and we need to, you know, change how we do this and get real honest about what the data says. And I've, you know, just been shouted out of like every room because of that and now, now, like every, you know, all these European countries and even America are like reconsidering adolescent transition and it's like I feel like I've been trying so hard to like tell people that this is coming and people have just ignored me every time and doubled down on this language, which is not helping the problem.

Taf 43:58

So, yeah, I think it's really sad and frustrating. Oh, you know, I think I think we're going to win. Really sad and frustrating. You know what I think we're going to win. Listen, I think, with the JK Rowling thing, if thousands of TERFs are mad, gender-critical people are in your mentions, harassing you and whatnot, I think if there's a hundred people who actually check out Dollcast and listen, they're like oh, actually, yeah, you know what her opinions are like pretty reasonable. And you know, someone brings you on a show like piers morgan or whatever it is, and they're like you know what? What's all the big deal like? Why are you being attacked by jk rowling? And then you see, like in simple terms, like, listen, I'm just like anyone else. You know, I care about things like hair. Um, I care about my rights, you care about those things, and that's what matters to me. That's a message that resonates with people and I think that you know, a little bit of internet drama is. You know, it's just, we're going to win in the end. It's going to help I.

Brianna 45:01

I agree we're going to win. I do want to ask you not to underestimate, like, the amount of personal toll some of this stuff takes on me. Like I've been around the internet for a while and I'm used to death threats and rape threats. Like, if you guys look at the text message chain the night after this happened, you're getting text messages at four in the morning that are hey, I stood up all stayed up all night working on a, v, c and d, and it's because I could not sleep, because, like my every piece of social media I had was on fire. Nut jobs are emailing me.

Brianna 45:37

I'm having to take down comments on our youtube channel because it is just so over the line and like, to a certain extent, I signed up for this. I'm a public figure, I understand that, but it's just it really like there are real times now that I swear to God. Before I started on this political project, just going through my day, I just thought of myself as a woman. I just literally did not think of it, and you can only have someone call you a man so many hundreds of times a day and not have it like affect you on some level and you know, like, like it's. I wish that asking for my own dignity did not come at such a high cost, if that makes sense to you.

Taf 46:23

No, I mean, it's a horrifically high cost. It's maybe one of those brutal things that someone can go through sort of actually going to war but just you feel constantly attacked, you're in a constant state of danger and panic. That's why you end up staying up till 4 am, because your body is like pumping with adrenaline, because in a very real sense, you recognize that like you know what people think is life or death, and you know, I think that is so hard. I think that hopefully it helps to just like know that all of the hate online is kind of like an illusion and there's like a real. There's real people, people like chink, who, yeah, you know who care and are willing to listen to you, and the people who are sort of they're insane online. Those people are like the least meaningful group of people to care about their opinions, and so I think it's, you know, it's nice to just know that, like when it comes to people who actually matter, those people think through things and are not so crazy.

Schyler 47:41

I couldn't agree more. Like I just think about, like, who we're hoping to bring on to all cast this next year, like, for you've been, like you know, back channeling and doing all the things you do best and, honestly, like I feel like this is, this is the cost of being visible, is that you're gonna attract haters, and I I always come back to that. If you're attracting them, that's because you stand for something. And if you stand for something, it means that they think you're a threat. They think you're a threat to something I don't know what, but um, I guess just to making trans people acceptable in society again.

Brianna 48:16

So well, I think the TERFs are so focused on me in our political project because we're effective. Right, jk Rowling got a ton of power by basically just broadcasting, frankly, the death threats that trans people have been sending her. It's abhorrent, it doesn't work. It made us look unhinged and you know Vosh is my friend, but when he's posting stuff like shut up and make me a sandwich, it just makes the pro-trans side looks insane. But on the other hand, now she's doing this to the Kemergate chick, like, come on, I will sit there and let y'all say the worst stuff to me and people can just read it online and they have.

Brianna 49:17

And you know we got so many messages this week talking about how horrible what the backlash was and I think they're like everyone on the show denounces that. But there's a mirror project on their side to deny us our humanity, to humiliate us and to ultimately push us out of public life. Maya Forrester this week was pushing back on the idea of adults, adults having gender change surgery like downstairs, like pushing back on it and intimating that we needed to outlaw it. This is a crazy fringe mission and I think, if we are reasonable in the middle, I do think it really exposes just what the ultimate goal of this mission is.

Solidarity in Progressive Media

Taf 50:04

Yeah, I totally agree. We got to hold on to that, like those fundamental values, because there's lots of trans people that are like going to attack us and, of course, there's going to be, like gender critical people who attack us. But my values are solid, like I believe in people's agency over their own bodies, fundamentally, and it doesn't matter. Like if every single person in the world were to tell me like I'm wrong on that and that, like they hate that, I believe that it doesn't matter. Like I believe that it doesn't matter, like I believe that anyways. And so, like, fuck all those people. Like, yeah, I'm just going to keep on my principles you know we had an interview with Cenk as well, just like you know he does Because that is what I think shines through. Everything else, more than anything, is keeping to what you believe in, really truly believing it, and not giving ground to anyone, just, you know, for the sake of being liked or whatever.

Brianna 51:13

Okay, love for the trans community. Taff, you said that on our very first show. You said it on our third show Then, like the Indie of Willoughby segment, I re-looked at that this week after jk rowling attacked us and you gave a really lovely monologue about how you didn't want to be a pick me and you wanted to start this show to love the trans community. I think that's why it hurts so much when they attack us, because I feel, from my point of view, I'm out here tanking for the team and doing some stuff that's really unpleasant, and I'm doing it because I genuinely am worried that people that need healthcare I don't even need anymore are not going to have access to it, and I just I don't know like. I understand criticism is part of the job, but it just hurts. How many people like assume poor intent here? Do you know what I mean?

Taf 52:07

absolutely. Um, one of my favorite like archetypes in fiction is the character who is like noble and they're like hated for it. That resonates with me so much. You know these people who are just doing the best they can do and they're punished, or someone like Ned Stark or like Davenar Cullen in fantasy, these characters, they really work for me because they're shouldering this burden and I feel like that is the height of nobility, because it's easy to be pro-trans when you're not being attacked for it and it's easy to be moderate on trans things when you're not being attacked for it. There's no virtue in playing to what people want you to say, the virtue of standing by your principles, true courage. It only occurs when you can stand against the hate. So I think what I see in you is virtue and courage and it's so much bigger than anyone who is playing. Pick me. Even if you get accused of that, it couldn't be more far from the truth. So I think it's admirable what you're doing and I think other people are going to see that more and more.

Brianna 53:21

Y'all being on the show with me. We're all doing this together. It's why it makes it so much harder to attack any of us, because it's not just me, it's all four of us pushing for something. And you know jank sees the value. You heard what he says. He believes in her mission and I think a lot of other people are going to see that too there's so many people that just aren't online that otherwise agree and need the voice that you're bringing.

Schyler 53:47

And this is where, like I mean, I kind of see myself in this space. Even though I'm here on the show and I love this show and I'm with it, with you all, I'm not super online and I like to think that I am sort of a representation of so many like non-online people that otherwise would be drawn in and totally on board with the mission of what we're here to say, which is just a third way for marginalized, a really marginalized group of people that have sort of had their voice stolen from them quite a bit in the last like five to 10 years and need to see, like, what is the proper vision for trans rights in modern society. And I'd like to think that we're at least much closer to that than some of the voices that have been sort of dominating the online space.

Brianna 54:38

God knows, I agree.

Kelly 54:41

We can gain some of the TERFs opinions too too. I mean, I know that doesn't seem possible half the time, but there's some consistent watching, you know, because they're watching us clearly by the replies. Hopefully we can at least change a few of their opinions as well.

Brianna 54:57

We've had those comments, Kelly. I've had TERFs write into the show and tell me you know, I don't think you're the threat, it's this wider mission I have a problem with. So I think they're acknowledging that. So maybe it'll be helpful.

Schyler 55:12

Yes, yes, yes, all right, okay, so today we're thrilled to have a true powerhouse in progressive media joining us today. He's the founder of the Young Turks, a trailblazer in digital political commentary and, honestly, one of the most outspoken voices for change in America. He's a champion for progressive causes and a voice that refuses to back down in the fight for justice and equality. Please welcome the one and only Cenk Uygur. Please welcome the one and only Cenk Uygur.

Brianna 55:47

Woo Cenk, I wanted to ask you when did you become an ultra-Zionist? Congratulations. So, first of all.

Cenk 55:57

thank you everybody. Yes, thank you everybody. Wonderful to see you all. And to Brianna's joke, I'm apparently both an ultra Zionist then and then he sent my doctor.

Brianna 56:11

It's true, it's true, you're also MAGA, as I understand it. So what I wanted to say to you, cenk, is I've probably gotten 100 emails going. How can you be friends with Cenk? And I know you've gotten the same about me, and this is literally what Dollcast is about. Like you and I do not agree on Israel, we don't agree on other things in progressivism, it has never affected our friendship, and we don't have to share the same opinions to do good work together, and we have, and that's a lot of the mission of our show. So I just wanted to thank you for showing up today. It really means a lot.

Cenk 56:48

Yeah, no problem. And look, that's what we have to go back to. And right now I'm in the middle of a maelstrom of criticism for even just not for changing any of my positions, but just talking to the right wing. And we've gotten to a place where people think that if you talk to the right wing, that that's immoral or fascist or racist or something along those lines.

Cenk 57:13

And we can't, this country can't survive if we're not willing to talk to one another, and we won't be able to understand each other, and we won't be able to win on issues that we care about, and we certainly won't be able to convince the other side of anything if we never talk to them or we never listen to them.

Brianna 57:28

Yep, well, you know I agree with that. So I want to really get into it and I want to ask you some pointed questions so we can get through it. I remember the first time, cenk, I heard you talk about trans rights and it was positive. It was a very positive aspect. It was back during the Bush years.

Brianna 57:45

I tried to find the clip to show it to people, but this was literally almost 20 years ago and I was a trans woman that was very newly out of the closet and I would watch your show and hear you someone who responded to testosterone a lot better than any of us did like advocating for my rights in an era where, over on Majority Report, like Dreen Garofalo and Sam Seder are joking about ladyboys.

Trans Rights and Media Representation

Brianna 58:12

So I've seen like a real integrity for standing up for trans rights for you for literally 20 years. And yet you know this fringe move of the trans our trans advocates have pointed you painted you out as this, like super villain over the last five years, which is so troubling to me. So I guess I wanted to ask you in a personal way, like, how has this been for you emotionally to have spent literally 20 years advocating for all of our civil rights and to be talked about like you're a villain. Does it make you just want to not talk about this issue at all? How does it make you and the rest of Young Turks feel?

Cenk 58:52

Yeah. So, look, in the beginning it was a shell shock. I couldn't believe the reaction we were getting. Now, unfortunately, I've gotten very used to it, so, but let me walk you through both of those things. So, however many years back, I said look, I think that some of these positions I don't agree with. I think that we're taking maximalist positions here on like, for example, professional sports leagues. I think they should be able to make up their own mind and make their own decisions on whether they allow trans women into women's leagues, etc. I thought that was just a very normal position to have, because that's probably where 95% of Americans are.

Cenk 59:40

The blowback that I got was you're a Nazi. I was like wait what? First of all, thank you for pointing out that we've been fighting for constitutional rights and for dignity, respect, equality and justice for trans people for over 20 years. So when some Johnny come lately, comes by and goes, oh, I just tuned into the internet and find out that you don't have the maximalist position, so I think you're against trans rights, well, first of all, brothers and sisters, do your goddamn homework. And we had the courage to fight for trans people when almost no one was doing it. That's right.

Brianna 1:00:19

That's right. So I want to walk people through what your actual argument was, jane, because I actually you don't know this when I go on TV shows. I wrote down the speech of yours because it was so good. And what you did is you went in front of your audience. You said look, people are with trans people on everything on housing, on education, on access to surgery, on even serving in the military. Is this one thing Sports, the polls show? They're not with you and if you chase this issue, you're going to lose it all. And you said that. I think it was three years ago and it has proven to be wildly true. So what is it? What is the cost to you and everyone at TYT been to have told us the truth about this and to have gotten so much blowback?

Cenk 1:01:04

Well, so what? What I've gotten used to is folks who are other online hosts or influencers, et cetera. One having extreme positions and, if anyone disagrees, calling them a Nazi, which is the most counterproductive thing on planet Earth, right. Number two I've gotten used to them lying about us just 24-7. That's just like there's now an assembly line of lies about our positions. So I'm used to that. But the part that, of course, frustrates me is that what any human being is they get good people to believe things that aren't true. If you ask the normal person on the left these days, hey, do Young Turks, cenk and Anna believe in trans rights? They'd probably say no, that's not even close. It's so frustrating to have that. But look, the ironic upside here is we've done these kind of fights so many times, dozens of times, throughout the 22 years of the Young Turks right that we're used to it. And so what will happen is, in a couple of years from now, people will realize oh, the maximalist position not only is not a good position to have in terms of electoral strategy overall, but actually hurts trans people. And what will happen after that is absolutely no one will come back and go oh, the Young Trust were right. Thank you for protecting trans rights and doing it with a better strategy. That will never happen. It never happens in any fight and it won't happen here. But we do the right thing, no matter what.

Cenk 1:02:43

And let me give an example from my identity group to give you guys a sense of why I think it's such a bad idea. So, for example, I'm Muslim and there was in the first term of Trump. He promised in the first campaign that there would be a Muslim ban. He tried some form of a Muslim ban, et cetera. Right Now, this is a tiny little thing and it wasn't a national issue. I'm just giving it as an extreme example.

Cenk 1:03:13

There was a story that we did, I think out of Minneapolis a long time ago, about some local Muslims there were demanding that a guy be able to serve at the grocery store local grocery store but since he was Muslim, he didn't want to touch the pork, the ham, the, everything else. So he wanted an exemption from his job whenever it came to any products that were not halal. And my point was guys, no, don't. Yes, yeah, because brother, then don't take that job. I love you, don't take that't. That's not the hill to climb. Yes, yeah, because brother, then don't take that job. I love you, but don't take that job. That's part of the job, 100% Right.

Brianna 1:03:39

As trans women, I probably should not take a job as a surrogate for someone. That's not going to be a good job for me. Right, there are just some jobs you can't do because of your situation.

Cenk 1:03:50

there are just some jobs you can't do because of your situation, and if we had insisted on that being our maximalist position, something that, whether it was a Muslim ban or any other thing against Muslims in America, would have been more likely, not less likely, because everyone would have assumed that we were so unreasonable that what it meant is that if you want to protect Muslim rights, you have to create special exemptions for muslims everywhere, and so it's just a terrible strategy, and so I I'm so worried that the maximalist people on trans rights are hurting, uh, the protect the, the goal of protecting trans people in this country without realizing it.

Schyler 1:04:32

Yeah, you know, Cenk, to that point. I think this really came to the forefront for me when I saw the episode or it was actually just a YouTube video that Benny Carallo put out. She was a member on the Young Turks, one of the show hosts, I think, and she was like I'm leaving, and it was over this exact issue of the trans rights in sport, what that means, and of course, she was taking that maximalist position and I just couldn't help but think like this is, you know? It's emblematic of where that maximalist position goes and how it divides people. But it's also like who are you talking to? Are you in a bubble here, Like who is like actually not using their eyes and ears and can just see the blatant unfairness that's happening? I mean, it's just seems so obvious to me that it's not where we need, where we want to go with things, besides the fact that polls are consistently telling us this too.

Cenk 1:05:30

Yeah, and so, look, they are in a bubble, and that's a polite way of putting it. And the thing about bubbles at their extreme is that they never allow for dissent, because dissent bursts the bubble right. And so if someone goes one inch outside of orthodoxy and orthodoxy, by the way, that no one voted on and no one asked trans people in this country, nobody asked them for a vote on it. I mean, that's why I keep using the Latinx example. Latinx comes out, I instantly go that's crazy. I'm not saying it. I know hundreds of Latinos. I've never once heard any of them say Latinx.

Cenk 1:06:11

You guys just made that up in a lab at Oberlin, okay, and so you pretend and, most importantly, you're pretending to speak for Latinos without asking them. Okay and so, and then it turned out they did a poll and 96% of Latinos hate Latinx. And so, in the same exact way, nobody ever asked trans people in this country. Hey, what? What is the position that you guys are in favor of? That's right on any of these issues. They just declared, as king of the trans, apparently, or the king of the left, that these no trans community believes in maximalist positions and if we don't get that, then we're fine losing.

Schyler 1:06:50

No, no no, ask them, have a conversation or just platform certain trans people that will take those positions and make it seem like that's the dominant narrative. That's right, when you know. That's why we're here to kind of push back a little bit and offer some more new.

Navigating Extreme Leftist Views

Brianna 1:07:04

So, jake and I want to say this because like this is I think you're dead on with this no one, we don't feel like we have a voice in major media, the New York Times, right-wing media None of us on the show feel like we have a voice or a user represented in any part of this conversation. But I want to talk about the Benny example, and you're probably too polite to say this. I'm not, and Benny made some really personal accusations about you being a transphobe and she alleged this phone call that you've had with her saying like you just did a bunch of transphobic stuff. How long have we worked together? It's got to be, it's what? Six years.

Brianna 1:07:43

At this point, you are probably the most supportive person in my entire career at being trans. I have y'all. There have been days where people have gone after me. I've called Cenk nearly in tears and in between media hits. He has taken time to be a friend for me. He is when I've wanted to put out ads with Rebellion Pack that were pro-trans or hire trans people to work at Rebellion Pack. He's been nothing but supportive and I can't reconcile the person Benny is with the friend that I've had for many years has had my back over and over and over again and I really resent that. You've got these extremists out there that are taking some of our best friends and talking about them and characterizing them in ways that just are so divorced from reality.

Cenk 1:08:34

Yeah, and unfortunately part of that is that we're in the attention business and it's an ugly business to be in. Right, Because in the case of Benny, I gave her a platform in being a contributor in the TYT network where no one else did, and I've done that for trans folks, African Americans, Latinos you name it all across the board, right and over and over again, and no matter how many times we get attacked.

Cenk 1:09:04

We never change our policies. We never change anything. We just keep hiring those same folks again and again anyway, because everyone's an individual and because Benny did crazy things, that doesn't mean every trans person is going to do that. That's crazy, right and so. But unfortunately, some go out on a blaze of glory because they think if I attack the Young Turks, I'm going to attract a lot of attention, which is unfortunately true. That's what happens every time.

Cenk 1:09:31

If people by the way, a lot of people have left on really, really good terms with the Young Turks, and do you know who they are? Unfortunately, you don't, so that's why people, when they're going out especially if they were not being you know, benny unfortunately was not successful in getting a lot of views, right and so, but the one thing that worked for her was attacking us, and the common theme that you see in almost everyone who left is now remember everybody, don't subscribe to the Young Turks, subscribe to me, wow, okay, alright, and look, both things can be true at the same time. They could truly be in that bubble and believe the things that we think are a little bit crazy, but they don't, and they think that's great and normal and moral. Plus, they could also want their attention right.

Brianna 1:10:22

So, as long as I'm attacking people in this interview, I want to use another example of a former Young Turks person I'm incredibly frustrated right now with, and that's Emma Vicklin. You know I had subscribed to Majority Report literally since the Bush years. I was there for Break Room Live. Every bit of it with Sam Seder used to be my favorite show. With the way the majority report. You have a bunch of cis people on this show that have these maximalist positions on every single part of this. You've got Emma who is out here pushing like she doesn't have to live the reality of any of the extreme positions she's putting out there. If she says trans women should be in sports period, If she says non-binary people need to go in the bathroom, there are no restrictions, no medical pathway, dismantle, everything in sight. She doesn't have to live with the complications of that. She'll get praised online. It's the safest point of view, but there's no. I'm so frustrated that there's this project of extremist leftists that are speaking over us in the community.

Cenk 1:11:35

Yes, there's a couple of different issues there. So if Emma, sam, etc. Want to have a maximalist position, you know that's fine, I don't get to veto it, that's not my business, it's their show, right. And even if you're trans and you think that they're hurting the community, you just have to make a counterpoint and there's nothing we can do about people who we don't agree with. So that part is perfectly normal, frustrating, but normal, right. And so what bothers me is not that Because, by the way, there's hosts at the TURT Network that have those same positions, right. And what we do is we engage in dialogue, debate, et cetera, and try to inform the audience of both points of view so they can make up their own mind.

Cenk 1:12:20

My issue with, with the direction they've gone is they're saying if you don't agree with us, you're immoral, you're right wing and immoral, and there is no, you're not allowed to dissent. But again, who elected you a mayor of trans world or America, or the left wing, like I could do the same thing. I can say, hey, you know, and I think we're more factually correct, of course, right, which is that, hey, I believe that if you go to those maximum positions you're hurting trans community, right, and so if I that, I could say well, that's it, emma, you're not allowed to say anything anymore because you're hurting the trans community. My opinion is you're hurting the trans community.

Cenk 1:13:02

So I win, I win right. Yeah, because that's. And and if you look at it that way, the they will say well, that's absurd, you can't say that, but that's absurd, you can't say that. But guys, that's literally what.

Cenk 1:13:12

Majority Report is saying that's literally what these other guys are saying. And then they use this excuse of you're hurting vulnerable communities. But wait a minute. We disagree on what hurts and helps vulnerable communities. In fact, I'm Muslim, so Muslim and trans people are at the very front lines of people who might be harmed by this new administration. Right and by the right way. So when you tell me I'm not allowed to have a certain opinion about my own community because I would be hurting vulnerable communities, you're not actually trying to protect those communities. You're trying to protect your own opinion and you're trying to make it seem immoral to disagree with you on strategy and policy, and that's what I think is really harmful 100%.

Taf 1:13:58

I want to jump in on that because I see a really big parallel in the incentive structures. You're talking about bubbles and echo chambers here. I think it's clear that some people they exist in an environment where everyone around them is super progressive and they might be, you know, cisgender or transgender. But at the end of the day, if you are advocating these maximalist positions, which are landing well because you live in, you know, san Francisco, that doesn't help trans people who live in Texas who then ultimately have to live with the consequences of everyone around them pointing fingers and saying look how crazy the Democrats are on these issues.

Taf 1:14:36

I see a big parallel between this and issues all across the board. Take climate change, for example. It's really hard to understand climate change and yet if you're on the right, there's a big incentive to just say I don't really believe it right, because that's so much easier than going into the research and deeply understanding these complex issues. So I think we have this problem societally with information and the incentive structures around adopting positions. I wonder for you if you see a solution to this. How do we break out of this cycle of just taking whatever position is convenient and actually get to the truth of the matter?

Cenk 1:15:16

Yeah. So let me use two examples here again. So I was just at AMFEST that's the big Target Point USA conference over the weekend, and I am blowback for that.

Brianna 1:15:30

Could not believe that. Stupidest blowback in history.

Cenk 1:15:33

Yeah. So they said like, literally, the critics are saying talking to anyone who voted for Trump is like an act of racism and so, but guys, how could? Are you? Do they really think that 77 million people that voted for Trump are all fascists, are all racist? 77 million people that voted for Trump are all fascists, are all racists, are all sexists. I can't believe that. Their bubble is so thick that they can't see that's an insane and untenable position, right?

Navigating Political Divides and Sensitivity

Cenk 1:16:01

But when I went to go talk to Aaron I've done this now on dozens of shows I start with a point of agreement. So on sports, by the way, not even high school sports, I don't agree with them. On high school sports, I think I don't want to check the genitalia of millions of kids because they're worried about trans women competing cross-country against girls. Who cares, right. So, but I could have that debate with them and I could have that battle. But on professional sports, I agree with them and I start with that point of agreement.

Cenk 1:16:31

Then I say now let me get point of agreement with you guys on constitutional rights, right, and so on housing, employment, healthcare, core constitutional rights, you agree that trans Americans are like every other Americans and we're all 100% American and should have 100% constitutional rights, and almost every right wing host that I've talked to says, yes, you're right about that. Oh my God, we just established a floor. That is excellent. And then let's layer on top and have those debates, right? And I did it at AmFest and the reaction was interesting, right? Yeah, I would say two-thirds, the best that I could assert. Two-thirds of the room applauded trans constitutional rights. Yeah, okay, at AmFest, that's impressive.

Cenk 1:17:20

Yeah. So now Charlie said well, I don't know if housing is a constitutional right, so I'll debate that with him on another day, right? So it's a mixed bag. You're not going to get like nirvana overnight, but look at these gains we're making when we actually have a conversation, right? And so again back to uh. You know my identity. To give you another example, that isn't about trans issues.

Cenk 1:17:43

So I was talking to a right wing host, uh, last week on there, and then, after we went off air, he said you know what I really appreciate about you, cenk, or we might even have done it on air. He said you put out a video explaining how to pronounce your name. Okay, and tell me more, right? And he's like look, your name is hard to pronounce and you acknowledge it, whereas I feel attacked if I said Kamala Harris the wrong way and if people say that I'm a racist for that, when I had no bad intent. You see how we're pushing people away. Nobody knows how to pronounce J. It's C to the J. Nobody knows that. Stop assuming bad intent, because once you do that, you're not bringing people into your side, you're pushing them away from you.

Taf 1:18:35

No, I mean just, there's a real incentive to just bludgeon people at any chance you get with, you know, slightly stepping over the line, and there's an expectation more and more that if someone makes you feel bad, even a little bit like they are in the wrong, and that's turned out to be a very powerful a little bit like they are in the wrong and that's turned out to be a very powerful bludgeon, especially on the progressive side. Progressives are very sensitive to people's feelings and so as soon as someone is told like, oh, you're actually making me feel bad, you're racist or whatever, that really lands and it seems like it's getting people to shut up and not actually have these conversations or, you know, just continually take positions which are more and more focused on protecting the slightest harm to the tiniest minority group Latinx, a good example, you know. Maybe it helps. You know some tiny percentage of non-binary, you know Latino people, but most Latin people, latino people, are not falling into that category and then they feel really isolated. So I just see that everywhere.

Cenk 1:19:41

Yeah, thank you for saying that and I think it's so true. Like that, guys. If, why did we lose the popular vote when the Democrats hadn't lost the popular vote in over 20 years? Right, and it seemed like it was over. In fact, the Republicans started putting out talking points against democracy because they thought they were never going to win the popular vote again.

Cenk 1:20:02

Because the minute that anyone disagrees with us 1% we immediately call them right-wing fascists and push them out right and right-wing fascists and push them out right. And the minute that you agree with I agree with MAGA 5%, actually probably more than that. Now 10%, 20%. Why? Because I didn't go towards them. They came towards me. They say they're anti-war, anti-corruption, they want to pardon Edward Storten, cut the Pentagon, they hate Mitch McConnell, they hate Dick Cheney. Oh great, I'm going to take yes for an answer, right, and they say no, that's unacceptable. So when I say I agree with MAGA 5%, they say welcome, come on in, come on in right. And when I say I disagree with the left 5% they go get away from us, we don't want you, right? Well, that's how you lose. And to your point about feelings. Okay, there's two parts to that. That's really interesting One. You hurt my feelings so you're not allowed to have. That opinion is not a logical argument.

Cenk 1:21:01

No, Unfortunately it's effective, not logical, yeah, and so it's not logical, because everybody has different feelings and just for that has different feelings, and just for that we have to figure out, we have to adjust for 330 million feelings, and you can't ever get to a position that doesn't offend someone's feelings, right? So it's absurd on its face, point one. Point two is they're giant hypocrites about it because they don't actually care about people's feelings. Why do I say that? So do you think it might hurt our feelings when you call us Nazis? Yeah, our feelings don't count, and it's not about me or Anna. No, no, no, no. It's about anyone they disagree with. So you don't mind hurting the feelings of people you disagree with, but you mind it intensely when they hurt your feelings.

Brianna 1:21:49

You know what that sounds like. By the way, ironically, that sounds like a right-winger.

Cenk 1:21:53

Yeah, because right-wing says hey, if it happens to you, I don't give a damn. If it happens to me, then I care a lot, right.

Navigating the Progressivism Identity Crisis

Brianna 1:21:59

So, cenk, I wanted to talk about this because I think, like, the reaction to you at the Charlie Kirk event is really emblematic, and you know, when you ran for president, this is about the time I really had hit my limit with. I think it's something you pointed out, a side of the left that I think is increasingly fascist in the way that they behave. It's about shutting down debate, it's about moralizing, it's about control and you know, there's a playbook that I've been through a lot and I think you have been uniquely through this playbook of doubting people's intentions and taking the most cynical read of it and turning you into an enemy just for having a slight difference of opinion, and I think the Charlie Kirk event is a really good example. Yeah, I heard you go to that and I'm like okay, cenk is my friend. I literally do not know another person in Democratic politics that will just tell you what you're thinking Like. There's no pretext with you. You just you will tell anyone who will ask, you will shout it on the air.

Brianna 1:23:02

This is the strategy I'm thinking about. This is where I believe we should go, and you're exactly that person in back channel, tremendously direct. But there's this entire political project that you know again, emma Vegland was doing this to you literally yesterday, putting doubt on it, insinuating that you're trying to like rationalize, like racism or like these Nazi impulses, and there's this tendency to really darken and to doubt every single one of your intentions. So my question is how do public figures like you and me, how do we turn the left around? Because the conclusion I've come to is, as much as I am aligned with progressive politics, I think there's something so fundamentally broken within progressivism that I don't think we're going to win. It's not because our ideas are good, it's because there's such a tendency to rip ourselves apart over the most minute differences that I don't see any future where we get power together. So, like, how do we deal with this like fundamentally toxic dynamic that exists on our own side?

Cenk 1:24:11

fundamentally toxic dynamic that exists on our inside. Yeah, so great question, but first let me put you at ease, Brianna. Sure, we've been around for 22 years and we always win. Yeah, so it takes a long time oftentimes. I mean, we went through the Dave Rubin fights and the Jimmy Dore fights and before that the Sam Harris fights, and people don't even remember anymore like sargon of akkad and oh, everybody the sargon is right.

Cenk 1:24:36

That was like I don't know two decades ago, right? So all those folks are, are you know not where they used to be, and all the people who thought, oh no, no, young turks will never survive this, etc. And so, but why? Because being open-minded is the correct answer, that's right. Being open-minded is the correct answer, that's right. Being open-hearted is the correct answer. So, if you stay on the correct course, you're going to get to the right answer. But what it requires is courage, because I know we're walking into the eye of the storm, right, and when we diverge 5% from this orthodoxy that came out of the online community and that bubble that doesn't exist in the real world, right, that we're going to get massive blowback, nuclear blowback, sure, but that's okay, yeah, because, guys, there's no way around this except fighting through that, like you're not going to be able to politely change people's minds.

Brianna 1:25:38

I find this a disappointing answer, though, jane, because I think there's something structurally that is broken in the left. Right now is more broken than it was 20 years ago. It's very fast to get moralized the attention economy has made us. There's so much clout in us going against each other. Do you really not think this is a structural problem that's getting worse?

Cenk 1:25:58

You know it's a structural problem, but we're going to get past it. How do we do that, though? The way to get past it is to force these conversations. Okay, say, be strong, say what you're going to say, have them call you a right winger and fight that fight, and, at the end, if the audience and the voters come in our direction, then we win that fight and we read so what happened, guys, is that when I co-founded Justice Democrats, the rest of them meant Bernie Sanders, right. So all the economically populous positions that we love Medicare for all, paid family leave, et cetera right. And it also meant on social issues, we protect gay marriage. We were for gay marriage decades before the democratic leadership were, et cetera. We protect trans rights. We protect all of our rights right. But then, unfortunately, some of the folks who got elected in Just Democrats, like AOC etc. And some leaders online said no, progressive means the most extreme positions on social issues.

Cenk 1:27:02

Every time, and they kind of redefined progressive to make it seem more extreme, and the whole time I'm going no, that doesn't represent everybody in the progressive ecosystem. In fact, it represents only a minority, a tiny minority of people in the progressive ecosystem. And then on top of that it's terrible electoral strategy and on top of that it's bullying. It's all of these things right. So now I want to slowly reclaim the word progressivism and I'm adding populism, so people can go oh right, the economic stuff, I get it. Oh right, the anti-corruption stuff, the anti-war stuff, universal health care, et cetera. So that's progressive populism, right, or populist progressives. And then eventually I want to reclaim the whole word. But right now we got some work to do in that direction before people start thinking about progressives as good guys who are fighting for things that help all of us and protect all of our rights, as opposed to extremists who only want the most maximum positions that most Americans don't agree.

Schyler 1:28:16

You know this. This totally reminds me of a meme I was just reading. Colin Wright put this out actually, he was one of our first guests on our show and it was just this little meme of a, of a, of like a line of positions, and it was showing over time and it was at the end. The key phrase was I didn't leave the left, the left left me, and it's like I just keep hearing that over and over in this dialogue and I'm like that is just how I feel.

Schyler 1:28:43

Like when I was talking with my friends about this recent election and I was like, yeah, who are you voting for? And they're all pretty centrist actually. Um, they, they were like, well, we're going to vote Kamala. But I was like so what's? What policy does she has that inspires you? And they were like, uh, it, I don't really.

Schyler 1:28:59

I don't know, I just really hate Trump, I just don't like Trump, and it's like it's there just felt like there was no, there was nothing really unifying them towards Kamala, and it got me thinking what's the vision here with the Democratic Party, and where's the anti-establishment left that used to be to me, used to be part of the Democrats 10, 20 years ago, and why is it so establishment heavy or friendly? I felt like that was what Kamala was sort of running on and they all of had the same like sympathy here and it was just because they didn't want Trump that they were voting for and it wasn't like a very strong um, I don't know. They just weren't passionate about it at all, and I was. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit to what do you think the direction is for progressive politics, like in terms of focusing on populism and those types of things?

Cenk 1:29:53

Yeah. So, first of all, these colors don't run. And what I mean by that is and I've been saying this for 20 years and we put the American flag in the TYT logo for over a decade. So some portions of the left said, oh, america's bad and American history's bad and you shouldn't love America, right, and oh, the flag is. You know, the right wing wraps themselves in the flag and stuff. I was like no, no, no guys, american history is filled with toxic stuff. Of course, slavery, the slaughter of the Native Americans, we can go on and on. That's obviously true, right, and you shouldn't deny that. You should learn from that, right. But to say that all of America is bad is ridiculous. My family came here because of the great parts of America and we love this country. So don't run away from the American flag. Say that the American flag is better represented by the left because we fight for equality and justice. Yes, right. And the same is true of of why left, left. I'm never going to say that I'm not leaving the left, and so I, I stand and fight, so they don't get to say who's the left and who isn't, especially when they're wrong.

Cenk 1:31:16

I'll give you an example on a topic we haven't talked about, because it's so important for people to understand this. On crime, what happened? Again, they took the maximalist position in California to turn felonies into misdemeanors, including assault, some forms of domestic assault. In California. To turn felonies into misdemeanors, including assault, some forms of domestic assault. I'm like what are we doing? Who, why? Nobody wanted this.

Cenk 1:31:36

I've been in every progressive get together for like the last 20 years and I never heard anybody say yeah, you know what, let's turn felonies into misdemeanors, 70,000 criminals out of jail, without you know doing proper vetting, right or ahead of time, ahead of time. Nobody voted for that, nobody wanted that, nobody pushed for that. So I don't even know where these crazy maximalist positions came from. And they said Jake, you're crazy, you're feeding in a right-wing narrative and crime is imaginary. There is no crime problem, you're just imagining it. I'm like, okay, except here's the stats from 2019 to 2023 in a place like California, and crime definitely went up, you know, and I gave you the stats 40%, this, 50% increase in that, et cetera. And then we had a vote and we finally voted on it in California.

Schyler 1:32:28

I have a personal story to that. I had my suitcase stolen on a trip to California, right outside of San Jose and like this rings so true. And when I went to report the crime because I was like, okay, I lost a drone and all this stuff, the police literally said, oh, thank God, this is over. I think it was $750 or something like that, or else they wouldn't even record it because this just doesn't even matter and it's like this is is insane, it's so sad. I love california and the state has just gone so downhill yeah.

Cenk 1:32:57

So $950 is was the limit, and then underneath that it becomes a misdemeanor. But the problem was that misdemeanors get pled down to nothing, so people were just walking right out the door right, and anytime anybody complained about it, the extreme left would yell at him and go you're a right winger and you're being bougie, okay. In fact, emma did a video where she said if you get punched in the subway, bougie is a complaint. I'm like no, no, it's bougie, not a complaint, because it's the working class that's getting punched in the face in the subway. There aren't billionaires in the subway getting punched in the face with a knucklehead, it's the working class. And so, like, wait, we're supposed to like we went from hey, if you smoke a joint, you shouldn't go away for life. That's mental right. You shouldn't go to jail at all for smoking.

Cenk 1:33:49

A showing to let's let out criminals, because that's the left wing position. No, it's not. Wait, are you saying like, for example, the trans community and again, the Muslim community? Are we pro crime? No, we're anti crime. It's done to us. We're very, very anti crime. So do not speak on our behalf and tell us that, oh, it's no big deal if there's assault, you're bougie to complain if you're trans and you got assaulted. But of course they don't say that. They say if you're trans and you got assaulted, that's awful, yeah. But if you're a white male, or even if you're an African-American woman and you're working class and you're on the subway, then maybe it's not awful that you got assaulted and you should shut up about it. Otherwise you're helping a right wing narrative right, see they?

Brianna 1:34:34

do this to trans people, cenk. They say like look at the bathroom situation, the WeSPA thing in California, right, a sex pervert goes in there, abuses a loophole in California law to walk in, has an erect penis and just has a fetish showing this to women and like. For me, as a trans woman, I'm probably more angry about this than a lot of like cis women are, just because it makes it puts my rights at risk, it makes us look like perverts and it's like nobody asked me or anyone on the show about that policy. It's terrible and this is the fundamental problem. Is the progressive move anytime like complications from these policies we've advocated, like defund the police? Every time it comes up, it gets like they just want to pretend all these complications aren't there.

Brianna 1:35:26

We're talking a big structural change top to bottom. We have to have a wide electorate that we can work with, some of which is going to be more right-leaning, some of which is going to be more left-leaning, which is why it's so critical we don't fall into this rabbit hole of identity politics. It's got to be economic in nature, it's got to be about dignity for everyone, and what I want to do sometimes is shake these hosts and go like go run for office, because when I ran for office I had to go do things like talk to the elevator union. And let me tell you, the guys that go to like union school to learn how to install elevators, they're not sitting there like reading about queer theory, about non-binary pronouns, they're working class people that have to get up at four in the morning and work till 10 o'clock at night to go hit a deadline. That's who we say we represent. So I don't know why we're so unrealistic about that.

Cenk 1:36:24

Really awesome, yeah, I understand and to finish, the thought about okay, well, who actually represents the Democratic voters and voters on the left? So, on that crime issue, california had a Prop 36 that took those misdemeanors and brought them back up to felonies, being tougher on crime. So if the extreme left was correct, well, that would fail because California is overwhelmingly Democratic. It passed with 70 percent of the vote. Of course it did Democratic voters going. No, you misunderstood what I'm saying. I am not at all pro-crime, I hate crime, right. And then in Oakland they had a defund the police mayor. They recalled her and the vote was 65-35 in Oakland.

Cenk 1:37:10

So meanwhile, people on these extreme left hosts are pretending that they represent black and brown communities and we're not allowed to disagree with them on crime because we would be hurting vulnerable communities. I'm like you knuckleheads. You guys sound racist communities by protecting criminals. No, the black and brown communities in Oakland just told you to shut the F up. The 65-35 recall vote. When is it going to get through your thick head? You do not represent the left, you do not represent democratic voters and anytime they have a chance to show it to you, they do in overwhelming fashion.

Taf 1:37:48

I think the thing is, whenever you go to war with reality and just surround yourself with yes men and people who are telling you what you want to believe, you lose. You can't win against the real world, and we see that happen again and again. I want to go to Kelly in just a moment because I believe she had another question as well.

Kelly 1:38:07

I was just curious because I know it must be hard, like with all the pushback that you guys received, like on the Young Turks. Like I know it's not just Benny that you guys had issues with, it was also like Sandy Lauvez, as well as Mike I believe it's Figueroa, who are two other LGBT members who left your guys to show. And it's like do you ever just find yourself like because I know, like one of these issues was because you guys refused to use the term like birthing person or your position on trans people in sports that do you ever just find yourself wanting to go down that right wing pipeline and just give up on even trying to support the left, because I know it can just probably get so exhausting after doing this for so many years, you know yeah, it'd be profitable so a couple of things.

Cenk 1:38:51

Um, mike was not a contributor. He is. He was part of the network earlier. He had left a long time ago. So I I don't know what he's saying these days, but people make up stuff all the time, uh, but, um, so those folks are not, are never going to change my policy opinions. To answer the core of your question, right? So it's not. And I get why a regular and I wrote about this on x the other day I get why regular people, if you call them, uh, a fascist, racist, uh, even if they disagree with you, five percent, just five percent are gonna go. Okay, then I'm not, then I hate you guys. I mean, you're telling me, you hate me, you're calling me crazy names and you're pushing me out. So I guess I'll go be a Republican, right? That's how a normie reacts, because they're not in politics and so they don't know all the different policies. They just know oh, you guys hate me. So I guess I must be MAGA, right, and that's why they're winning these elections.

Cenk 1:39:48

But we're not going to do that because we care deeply about policy. So I'm not going to be, oh they offended me or oh, they hurt my feelings, so I'm going to change my policy positions and I'm going to go support maga or become a republican or be against trans rights. No, I'll never, ever do that, and they're not going to get us to move on our principles where we disagree, but they're also not going to get us to move on our principles where we agree, right, so that's, it's not a helpful way to go. On the other hand, back to the point, I think brianna was making um, or one of you guys were, uh, that um about emma, right? So, like now, we all got bad feelings, etc. But I look, I don't think that emma's an evil person and she's sitting there going. I'm going to get them to stop.

Cenk 1:40:33

I'm sure that in her own mind she went down this rabbit hole and she really believes the things that she's saying. But what's really interesting is that I saw her recently saying that being anti-establishment is bad. I said wait, what I mean? The one thing that all progressives agreed to was we're fighting against the establishment, we're fighting against Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, et cetera, and it feels to me like they have now started to shift their positions to being pro-establishment, which is a mind trip, because they caught feelings about the populist left or something and they're like, oh, if you're on Bernie's side, then I guess we're going to take our radical positions and go on Hillary's side or something.

Cenk 1:41:19

And I'm like, have you guys lost your minds? Like, what are you doing? If, in this next primary in 2028, they go and support a corporatist like Pete Buttigieg or Gavin Newsom instead of a populist candidate, a corporatist like Pete Buttigieg or Gavin Newsom instead of a populist candidate, that'll be a marriage of like total insanity in the Democratic Party and it would betray progressives more than anything in the world, and so I hope they don't go in that direction. I hope they regain their senses over the next three years so we can actually coalesce in the most important primary we'll ever have in our lifetime in 2028, and pick a populist progressive that can actually win the primary and win the general election.

Taf 1:42:02

I want to ask about those principles, because they're coming up again and again, and something that is sort of an undercurrent of this conversation is whether you prioritize strategy and optics and rhetoric, or principles, long-term, and one of the things that I'm hearing from you you mentioned earlier that progressives are always winning in the long-term. Do you see making concessions on these maximalist positions as a temporary thing that you're doing in order to build bridges, or is that something that you really believe, that the maximus positions are incorrect? Where do you land on that and what is your strategy look like in terms of, you know, tactically avoiding taking a more extreme position that you might actually believe in?

Cenk 1:42:46

Yeah, so right now, um, I have the ability to just stick with the positions I believe in.

Taf 1:42:54

Whatever you believe in yeah.

Cenk 1:42:55

So, as it turns out, most of them are very popular. Okay, so in a sense I got lucky there, but I also don't emphasize the positions I have that are not popular, right? So the example I use at AmFest and I'll use here is I'm extreme on gun control. I don't think you should even be allowed to have a gun inside your house. I think you should be in a locker and you go and get it to go hunting or whatever, and so that's the rule in japan and many european countries, and it's actually globally is a very moderate position, but in america that would be extreme left.

Brianna 1:43:29

Yeah, I don't think you'll get that pass, cenk. I don't think that will be successful.

Navigating Compromise in Progressive Politics

Cenk 1:43:35

That's exactly my point. Look, I think that that position would save tens of thousands of lives, and that's not theoretical about. You offended me and hence trans people died, and I'm not even bothering trying to make a logical connection. Right, that is literally on gun control. Tens of thousands of people die because I think we have the wrong position. But am I going to stake the Democratic Party's electoral chances on that position? Hell, no, right, because why would you die on an unpopular hill? That's insanity right so.

Cenk 1:44:14

I'm willing to sacrifice positions that I deeply feel and I'm attached to and I'm positive, would save lives, because you're not going to save those lives if you lose the election because you insisted on a maximalist position on any given issue, position on any given issue. So, for God's sake, we have to be I'm not asking to be practical in the old school, so-called moderate, corporatist ways that mainstream media pushes. Oh, let's just be reasonable and give another corporate tax cut. No, no, that's not a real compromise. That's not where the American people are. But if you don't compromise on where American people actually are, well, you won't win and that doesn't help anyone.

Brianna 1:44:57

I think that's so well said. I mean, there's all kinds of policies. I personally would Like look at the non-binary stuff. I have no issue with non-binary people, I will call people whatever pronoun they want. But we're at a point where there's a real policy question about which parts of the transgender movement are going to be a priority and protected by law, and I think we've got to go with the ones that there's a lot of scientific evidence to justify is a health concern. So I think this is a problem. The left has a lot of trouble making the difference between left has a lot of trouble making the difference between yes, like.

Brianna 1:45:31

Personally I think that, like I understand there are some advantages that trans women have in sports. Given the amount of suicidal ideation I had as a child, I think it's probably a wash Like. If you just count it, I'm a fairly skilled runner myself, but I didn't have that training at a young age just because I was like slitting my wrists all the time right. So I think there's like. So I personally wish we could get to a point where you have trans women in sports. It's just not politically sellable. So why have that fight? It's not that important. I need healthcare more than anything. I realize we don't have a ton of time left, so I want to hit you on just a few things.

Brianna 1:46:12

So I was one of the first people to set you up with Destiny and to get you to debate Destiny. I was behind you going on a show for the first time. I've helped set up this stuff in Back Channel. I did the debate on WIC TV the other day. We're like because I know his producer, kyla, wants to have you on for Bridges and I'm like I don't know where this bridge is right now between the two of them from some of your statements. So are you, are you just really mad at Destiny? Like how do you feel? Because if we're talking about building bridges, like he does have a substantial audience that is part of the Democratic Party and I think they're important to reach out to as much as MAGA audience. That is part of the Democratic Party and I think they're important to reach out to as much as MAGA, if that makes sense.

Cenk 1:46:55

Yeah, so look, no, no, no, I don't have any hard and fast rules about destiny. God knows, I've debated him plenty.

Brianna 1:47:04

I think he won. The last one it was one of the few. I think he's lost was the. Should Biden drop out yeah.

Cenk 1:47:11

I think I won them all, I think it's a little bit of a wash but okay. No, no, I don't have a hard and fast rule, it's just A. I'm exhausted from debating Destiny. I've debated him on so many different issues and I'm exhausted from beating him up Like brother. Take a break.

Brianna 1:47:30

Debate someone who's?

Taf 1:47:31

not a good at fighting.

Cenk 1:47:32

Get back on your feet, um, but anyways. But the other thing is like he takes such contrarian positions and I feel like he takes them just to be contrarian and that gets exhausting too. So, but anyways, but I don't want to make the same mistake that others are, so I'm not close-minded about it. All right, a logical debate to have.

Brianna 1:47:50

Sure we'll have that I will send you the information. I hope you'll go on bridges. Kyla is a lovely person. She's a really good friend of mine and I think it would be good if you two were face-to-face to see if we can get this Destiny Jank bridge built, because I think, like I know both of you really well and I think both of you are fundamentally good people and I don't think you have to agree on everything to do good work together. Like we all agree, like these next four years of Trump are going to be really tough and that the rule of law is really important. So I think, just starting from there, I think it's a good conversation.

Cenk 1:48:26

Yeah, no problem, We'll figure it out. All that stuff will sort itself out. It's not that big a deal. I mean, there's now like this theme online that again the bad faith far left is taking, which is Jake won't debate the left. I've debated destiny like 14 times. I debated the sun for four hours, just like a month ago. I debated the sun for four hours just like a month ago. I talked to Chris LeBall. I was on Brian Tyler Cohen today. I mean, it goes on and on and on. It's all bad faith. I don't know anybody who discusses and debates both the left, the right and the middle more than I do.

Brianna 1:49:11

So if somebody says I'm not, debating enough, they might not have turned on a computer in a while amazing. All right, so I have a personal question for you. This is on my list of stuff I, as I've gotten to know you over the years, I have the sense like, if I think of an individual that testosterone really agreed with more than anyone on this show, you are literally the first person I think of. So I have always wanted to ask you what is it like to have experienced testosterone and, I presume, to have enjoyed it?

Cenk 1:49:44

I do. This is another thing that was forbidden to say, you know, by the far left. No, I love being a male and, look, it's in my nature and uh. So, look, when I was a kid I talked about this on on the young truce. Uh, you know plenty of times, uh, especially in our bonus episode for the members when we tell, like, more personal stories. So when I was a kid, I used to get into fights all the time and, and the reason was because I liked fighting, um and I and, but I never got in trouble for it. And the principal's like I don't understand how you're in this office every single week for a fight, but I can't ever suspend you. I want to suspend you so bad, but I can't because you never started the fight. So what the hell's going on here? I never explained to him my secret. My secret was I would let the other guy take the first punch. Oh, wow, punch me in the face. I don't mind, okay, because I'm a male, okay. And so I've got testosterone on overdrive here.

Brianna 1:50:52

Yeah, you do.

Cenk 1:50:53

And so eventually, and so you know, and I like the taste of blood in my mouth Like I'm a fighter through and through.

Brianna 1:51:02

You can tell, we know.

Cenk 1:51:04

And so eventually I realized wait, let's do this in a more societally acceptable way. So I became a middle linebacker. And then there's this funny story where they carried our high school football games on local public access back when that existed, right, and the guy doesn't know how to pronounce my name and he tells a story about how our football coach suited up during practice and he said you can hit me. You can hit me because he's kind of a young guy in the shape and stuff. So he comes over the middle and I didn't like him much at all anyway and I leveled and so the announcer told that story and then after I crunched, some guy coming over the middle in the game and they said that's Sank Weiger, he'll hit anybody.

Brianna 1:51:52

So is this testosterone going into your brain? Like are you just like this is the super serum? Like what was that? Like for you? Because I remember experiencing and going like this is hell. I cannot think straight. Oh, it's doing all this stuff to my body.

Cenk 1:52:07

Like like you must have loved all of this no, I did, and so, and so, when they were doing a smear job on me when I was running for Congress in 2020, I had an LA Times reporter call me and ask me is it true that you like women? Yeah, wait, is that illegal now? Is that unacceptable now? So, yes, I like women. Look, and part of the reason I tell people that is because don't be ashamed of who you are.

Schyler 1:52:41

No, right, yeah, right.

Cenk 1:52:45

And you know, if you're male, female, you're trans, you're gay. There's nothing wrong with any of that. Okay, Right, we don't fight for just some people. We fight for all people female, you're, trans, you're gay there's nothing wrong with any of that, okay, we don't fight for just some people. We fight for all people. We don't fight for some rights. We fight for all constitutional rights, right? So you have a right to be anyone you want, have any gender identity you want, and it's also okay to have the gender identity of fucking male.

Schyler 1:53:12

I love that you're saying that. I just love that. I got three younger brothers and this was always a sticky point for me. Trying to bring them over to the left at all is they're like I can't be proud of who I am if I'm leaving in the intersectional model where it's like this white guy at the top and you're automatically an oppressor based on your identity and it's it's like how can we that's where we want to rescue the left is. We want to bring them back and do exactly what you just said and celebrate all the different identities that make that possible, including cis, white men or men in general. Like it's just, we need to bring that back and I'm glad to see you like putting that here.

Cenk 1:53:55

Yeah, and look, let me add one more thing to that. Not all masculinity is toxic masculinity. No, of course not. Right, so like, and can we use language that other people can relate to? So when you say toxic masculinity, first of all 90% of Americans just shut off their brain Because they're like, ah, it sounds like mumbo jumbo. I hate it. Okay, number two you made all men feel like any masculinity is toxic by definition, right, when, in reality, if you just said to them hey guys, if you're right, wingers and stuff, do you like guys who beat up their wives? They're all going to go. No, no, aren't those guys douchebags? Yeah, they're goddamn douchebags, right, and so that's toxic masculinity. When you take your aggression and you direct it towards people, you should not direct itbags right and so that's toxic masculinity. When you take your aggression and you direct it towards people, you should not direct it towards right and so, whereas normal masculinity, there's nothing wrong with there's nothing wrong with.

Cenk 1:54:54

And so when the left says or implies accidentally I hope it's accidental that there's something wrong with masculinity, guess what you're going to lose Male voters Is this right. One more thing about that Me and Anna noticed a couple of years back that when if there was somebody being criticized, like Karen or someone who was right-wing, et cetera, people started adding in adjectives that they didn't need. They were saying white women shouldn't do this. Well, look at how white women do this. I was like wait, wait, wait.

Cenk 1:55:34

Why are we talking about her being white? How is that relevant here? Right, sometimes it could be if it's a racial issue, but then they would insert it into non-racial issues and so like. Why are we saying the word white as if it's evil? Right, as if it's bad. We're saying the word woman as if it's bad? Right, like. What are you guys doing? Snap out of it, snap out of it. As progressives, as people on the left, we're supposed to be for everybody, right? We're not supposed to be for everybody, right. We're not supposed to make the same mistake the right wing does. Right wing. Historically in this country, protected privilege of certain people white males, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right, yeah, yeah, doing the exact opposite and protecting the privileges of minorities as opposed to white people or males is not any better. It's right wing, in a different direction.

Brianna 1:56:28

Yeah. So, jake, I've got to tell you my favorite jank moment of all time was in your first debate with Destiny, where he was talking about somebody getting hit in the face with a skateboard. And this is the most male thing I've ever seen anyone do. And you go skateboard, getting hit in the face with a skateboard, that's nothing. And I was just like, yeah, that's, that's the jank. I know it was so over the top. But also, like I've the other day on pierce morgan, like you really lost your temper at dave rubin like it was a, it was a spectacle. Is there like I'm so torn because he has always been so kind to me in every interaction I've ever had with him. I understand there's a lot of history there. Is there any way that bridge gets rebuilt or is it just on fire forever at this point?

Cenk 1:57:10

No, on fire forever.

Taf 1:57:12

Oh no, oh no.

Brianna 1:57:16

Forever, forever fire.

Cenk 1:57:19

Yeah, I mean, look, if he did the biggest apology the internet's ever seen, okay, I'll listen, right, but he told about a dozen lies about the Young Turks that were so outrageous, so fabricated. Like, when I see someone making up things that don't even have like a plausible well, he said that and maybe he meant that, right. Okay, alright, maybe you want to interpret that, but when you make up something out of whole clause, that shows to me overwhelming bad intent. So those two guys I have in that bucket are Dave Rubin and Jimmy Dore Jimmy Dore pretending that we were Jimmy Dore is terrible Mental.

Navigating Conflict and Empathy in Politics

Cenk 1:58:02

So if they go, hey guys, guys, hey jane, we're so sorry, here's the lies that we said and we didn't, and we apologize, okay, then oh fine, I'm having a conversation, uh, but but otherwise no, and in terms of like the aggression. So there's a time and place for everything, just like the story I told about how, you know, I used to get in a fight when I was a kid, but I realized, hey, the better way is to become a middle linebacker. There's a time to fight when you're on air and Rabbi Shmuley is saying something insane. There's a time to be kind, etc. When you're off air, the time to be kind is almost always.

Cenk 1:58:42

Very rarely somebody will mistake your kindness for weakness and then you're going to have to show them that's not the case, right, right, but there's no reason to yell at anyone in real life. That's crazy, right? So that's why, like people and then there's so many smears out there, like, oh, you're bad to your employees, are you crazy? We've got people working here for 20 years, 22 years, 15 years, 12 years, 17 years on and on. People don't leave because we're so good to our employees.

Cenk 1:59:11

Because, why? What am I doing this? For, if we believe in left-wing ideas of open-hearted, open-minded. Why wouldn't you do that for your own employees? Of course you do. There's so much misinformation about us that it's frustrating. But yet behind the scenes, you know, I think almost everybody has the same reaction that you do, brianna, and that's why, when the Bennys of the world come and hit us with a howitzer out of nowhere, we're like Benny, we were so kind to you, we gave you so many opportunities and we never said to you don't say the things that you're saying, so that for you to then go and say that we're not allowed to say the things we're saying and we're hurting people and say all these outrageous things about us, right? That's why you see me get animated sometimes.

Brianna 2:00:00

It's not a value judgment, cenk. I love it. The place to lose your Temper is on Piers Morgan. It's a circus. That's the entire point of that show. It's good entertainment. I guess it's like I spent today writing emails back and forth with Jesse Singel trying to find a way to stop being enemies publicly. It involves some apologies. I'm just saying I don't know. I think the next four years are going to be so tough that any bridge building we can do is helpful. But you know I really understand where you're coming from.

Cenk 2:00:33

At the same time, yeah, it's not dave's day, ruben's positions that I would never speak to. It's him Fair enough, yeah. And so look last things on that. Look, we've also got to give each other space to be in good faith. That if you assume that everyone who disagrees with you does it in bad faith, that's not the right way to go. And of course there are times when somebody is in bad faith Like my original.

Cenk 2:01:07

Co-host is Ben Manquist. He's now the host of Turner classic movies. He's a wonderful guy and his dad was a kind and gentle soul. Frank Banquist was the press sector for Bobby Kennedy, rand McGovern's campaign, et cetera. And everybody loved Frank, his gentle soul.

Cenk 2:01:25

He was in World War II and he's the guy who put the bombs in the little missile launcher, etc. And I said do you know if you killed any Nazis? He's like I don't know. I was just trying to make sure I didn't lose my fingers, right. But my point is point is even frank the kindest gentlest soul.

Cenk 2:01:44

Well, when you're at war with a nazi, you gotta fire missiles at them. But but don't assume that the slightest altercation is world war ii with nazis. Don't go to firing missiles until there's actual nazis on other side, right? So you've got to be able to make those judgment calls and you know I'll connect the skateboard thing to it. Like Kyle Rittenhouse shot those two folks One threw a plastic bag at him and the other one hit him with a skateboard and I know that a lot of people say, oh my God, if somebody's hitting me with a skateboard, of course I get to shoot them in self-defense, right. But to me no, brother, he didn't cross the Nazi line, the mortal line. To me I can take a couple of hits with a skateboard. I don't want to end that guy's life. I don't want to end that guy's life and I want people to get there where we don't want to end each other and sometimes take a hit. And it takes more courage to take a punch than to throw a punch.

Brianna 2:02:51

It wasn't value judgment, cenk, it was just so macho and cute and I thought it was really adorable.

Taf 2:02:57

I think Taff had a couple of questions for you, so I mean I would love to have a broader conversation with you about the tension between identity politics and class politics, but I think it's beyond the scope of the discussion Just for the moment. On what we've been talking about, I think that there's a real valuable insight in the idea that sometimes we need to go through a bit of suffering in order to come out better on the other end. Earlier we were talking about that tendency in the progressive universe not to do that. I was just reminded.

Taf 2:03:31

Like trigger warnings, you know, famously they don't actually improve people's ability to read things with resilience. They actually make people more upset and more emotional, because it seems like it primes people to be upset. And so there's a way in which, allowing people to just sit in a little bit of discomfort, a little bit of suffering, they actually grow from that and they realize they're stronger than they maybe thought they did. So, on that note, I just want to thank you for bringing that masculine force into politics and that willingness to say things and to be disagreed with and to be attacked, because we need people who are willing to put themselves out there rather than just go with whatever the group is saying, because that's easy.

Navigating Trans Rights and Perspectives

Cenk 2:04:16

So, yeah, Well, thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. One of the kindest compliments I got or most badass compliment, let's put it that way was from Arian Foster. So he was a legendary NFL running back and he's on the left wing and I was on his show and he was talking about all the combat that I do with the right wing, et cetera, and he said you're kind of the sword of the left and I was like that's the best compliment. I've ever gotten, and so it sounds like a.

Brianna 2:04:49

Game of. Thrones thing and I love it.

Kelly 2:04:51

Oh and the other one was Ida.

Cenk 2:04:52

Rodriguez said you're an intellectual thug Like hell yeah, she said the same thing about Anna, my co-host, anna Gasperi right, and I love that. I love being an intellectual thug, I love being the sort of the left, but if you're going to do that, you're going to get hit with a couple of skateboards and that's it.

Brianna 2:05:10

I think of you more as like a tiger at the zoo, and you never know. When you see the tiger, he could just be hanging out or he could be eating someone and you someone, and you just never know. It's jank, you're gonna go.

Cenk 2:05:25

You're not domesticated, not quite domesticated, that's true, that's true. I'm definitely not domesticated because I do not obey and so internally we joke about uh, peers jank and lex jank, yeah, so on, peers, I, I fight because they they talk over me and what. This is a very common tactic of the right. They'll just monopolize the time and then they'll say outrageous things and won't let you respond. So that's not going to happen on my watch. You're not going to talk over me, I'm going to talk over you. Okay, but in situations where people are not doing that and they're just having calm, rational discourse, I never yell Right, never. So when I was on lex friedman's show and we did a four-hour discussion and people were like whoa, I don't know, you have a calm discourse and look at these interesting intellectual points he's making about corporatism versus capitalism. Yeah, if someone just asked me a normal question and then lets you respond, we're gonna have an adult conversation. That's beautiful and that's what I prefer. But if you poke the tiger, you're going to get the tiger.

Brianna 2:06:27

So let me ask you one more question before we go. Cenk. One of the reasons all of us on Dollcast my life was much better before I came out as publicly trans. It is much worse now in many ways. Jk Rowling attacked me a few days ago. It's led to ungodly harassment. I got people like there is a project to degrade me that has a cost.

Brianna 2:06:51

But you know, at the same time, I think the reason we're all doing this is we realize, like trans rights are not going to survive on this course, like trans rights have always expanded from the middle In talking to a broad audience. It seems like this last decade of being in the fringe and trying to push it towards the fringe, it seems like there's been a really big backlash. So I guess I have two questions, like one do you think that what we're trying to do on this show your analysis as a political professional? Like is this the right tactic for the trans movement? Real conversations across the spectrum, open, honest, more centrist. Is this the right move? And if you were in charge of the trans movement tomorrow, like let's pretend it's that onion headline, like man put in charge of struggling feminist movement, let's just say trans people elect Cenk as the president of trans rights. What would you do specifically? What would your top priority do? What would you change about our movement to get it back on course?

Cenk 2:07:55

Yeah. So first of all, of course, you guys are doing the right thing. I mean, at a bare minimum, just to represent the diversity of thought within the trans community has to be a good thing. If people say, no, we don't want diversity of thought, some trans people should shut up. That's crazy, that's nuts.

Brianna 2:08:14

We get that, we get that.

Cenk 2:08:17

So I love that you guys are not obeying and I love that you're putting out a perspective that a lot of people in the trans community agree with, and then the product of these discussions centrist, left, whatever else it might be is going to get us to the right answer eventually. If you don't have those conversations, you never get to the right place. So I think you guys are doing an incredible job here, a great service not just for the trans community but for open-minded conversations period. So thank you for that. And then in terms of the question you asked about what would I do if I was in charge of the trans community, I agree funny thought. But by the way, non-trans people are also allowed to have opinions on that. Sure, oh yeah, totally. And so sometimes people will say men shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion about abortion.

Kelly 2:09:09

No.

Brianna 2:09:09

I don't think we're running this so well. Jake, we could use all the help we can get.

Cenk 2:09:16

No, we're all allowed to have opinions about everything, right, yeah. And so what I would say is, as I'm doing on the right wing shows, I would say draw the line on professional sports, right, and say I get it. The American people are not there yet. And if you want to make that argument, keep making a moral, persuasive, ideological argument, while acknowledging that you're you haven't won yet Right on that issue. I would say on constitutional rights, they are non-negotiable. We're either all 100% American or we're not. Is the Constitution? Real or is it not real?

Cenk 2:09:51

If the Constitution is real and we believe it, then we all have 100% same rights. So we never give an inch on that. Now then, when you get into the issues that are more in the middle ground on that.

Cenk 2:10:02

Now then, when you get into the issues that are more in the middle ground look, I think that, as I said in the beginning of the show, that trans girls should be able to compete in high school sports, because, even if they want trigonometry, they're like what if your daughter came in second in cross-country because of it? I was like, wow, she'll never be second in anything in life. Like no, life is hard. And so so what, she came in second in cross, that's not the end of the world. Checking millions of kids' genitalia is 10,000 times worse. Right, that's my opinion and I would fight for that. But if we lost on that in some places, I wouldn't then push everyone else away and say they're Nazis and evil and racist, transphobic. I would say that's okay, we'll come back. We'll come back and have that debate another time, and I've already lived through this, guys. We lived through it during gay marriage, right. So in that fight, we never gave ground because it was a core constitutional right, right. But we also spoke other people's language in order to win them over, instead of pushing them out.

Cenk 2:11:04

What we would say is look, if you had a relationship that your parents didn't approve of, all right, I've already triggered in people's minds oh yeah, yeah, I had a relationship my parents didn't approve of. That's probably happened for I don't know 60, 70% of people, right? Would you want them to be able to block that relationship? People go, no, no, right, I guess I wouldn't, right.

Cenk 2:11:28

And so you start to talk their language and you say and what I say to them is guys, imagine that you were born biologically male in Nebraska, but you feel that you're a woman, right? Yeah, do you know what kind of courage it takes to come out and say that in the middle of Nebraska? Yeah, and you respect that courage. Do you think that they're doing it willy-nilly just because they feel like it? Or that might be something that is so irresistible, such a core part of their identity, that they have the enormous courage to come out and say it and make a change in their lives. So now I'm talking about courage, a thing that they respect, honor, things that they respect, right and so, and saying guys, what, okay, so now they got this crazy thing that gender doesn't exist. And you guys are all lying. They're like this is the right wings ideology, right or not the all right wing, but some portion of the right wing. They're all lying and they just make it up.

Brianna 2:12:32

We're really committed to it. We're really committed.

Cenk 2:12:36

You've committed all the way right. I'm like guys, did it ever occur to you that maybe what's in your head isn't in their head, that there's something else in their head and they're reacting to that right? So, as you're fighting for not moving on constitutional rights and making sure everybody's treated with equality and justice, you're also building bridges so you could win those arguments later. And, like I said, we already did this for gay marriage. So there is a winning formula. Let's use the winning formula, build those bridges and start to share with the other side, rather than pushing the other side away, so they can begin to relate to us, Because if they don't relate to us, they'll never want to fight for you. They'll always want to put you outside the wagons. But the minute you get them to think that you might be inside the wagons, that's when the right wing gets triggered to we protect. That's right.

Brianna 2:13:29

And I know this because I was the first person to transition at the University of Mississippi and there's an argument you can make to right wingers, which is it's my body. This is how I feel most comfortable. Give me the freedom to do what I want and they will have your back on that. There's an argument that gender doesn't exist and your daughter needs to see penises in the locker room, and if you have an issue with that, it's oppression and you're going to be referred to as a birthing person from now on. They're going to freak out about that. So there's just, I think, so much of this it's. The tone is just completely off and the policies we're pursuing are not important.

Brianna 2:14:11

Taff, you said this. I think it's a famous quote. I'm going to repeat it every day. I don't need anyone to believe that I'm a woman. I just need them to give me control over my own body and to respect those decisions, and that's it. And the rest is Gonna work it out, because no matter where I go in life, people call me she, which is all I need.

Cenk 2:14:29

so yeah, Look. I'll end on a last couple things here. First of all, a hundred percent agree with yeah. I just said and Look, Anna's now infamous tweet is Anna's now infamous tweet is lied about in retrospect. You can actually read the tweet right. So she didn't say I don't want anyone called a birthing person. She said if you want to be called a birthing person, I respect that right, but I'd like to be called a woman and I'm hoping that you respect that. And I never talked to a normie, someone who is not in politics, who thought that there was anything but the most obvious thing they have ever seen. And so how is it that the left says no, you're not allowed to be called a woman, or you're not even allowed to request that, Because if you request that, that you're feeding a right wing narrative or something along those lines no, they're not respected pronouns it's crazy.

Taf 2:15:29

Well, that's the thing, brianna, is that, like, the rights have to go two ways. Yes, I think it's totally legitimate to be like I would prefer to be called a woman, I'd prefer to be called she, her, but then you also have to respect that other people might say I would prefer not to be called she, her, but then you also have to respect that other people might say I would prefer not to be called a birthing person, right, and if you have a world where people can make those requests of people and you can choose to honor it, it has to go both ways and I think we lose people as soon as it becomes only about our feelings and our rights and not about anyone else's. This is just something that we keep hitting on on. The Dahlcast is mutual respect for people's rights.

Cenk 2:16:08

I love it. That's exactly right. So let's get back to common ground. Let's get back to uniting as a country, and if we unite as a country, then all of us will seem inside the wagons and, instead of constantly fighting one another, we'll begin to protect one another. And not only will that help all Americans, but the two groups of Americans that will help the most is trans and Muslim Americans. So, please, let's expand the wagons. Bring everybody in. Stop pushing people out.

Brianna 2:16:38

I love it. Well, cenk, thank you so much for being here and, on a personal note, like thank you for all the years of work we've done together. If I made a list of the five people I think have the most integrity that I've met through my whole career and I know a lot of people I'm pretty well known you would really be at the top of that list and it I really wish more people knew who you are, who is a very sweet person who just gives and gives and gives to everyone in sight and just is beaten up constantly on the internet. It is hard to watch and you know, I just I hope people are watching this interview today and get to see the real you, because, because it's who you are behind the scenes.

Cenk 2:17:25

Thank you so much. Everybody Really appreciate it. Thank you for doing this show and thank you for having me on.

Schyler 2:17:31

We'll talk again soon. Thank you for coming on.

Brianna 2:17:34

All right, all right, we move from stage. I think that was good content and I'm telling you, the show is going to be huge.

Debating Traditions and Modern Fashion

Taf 2:17:44

I'm telling y'all the show is going to be huge, I'm telling you, I think you're right. I think you're right, yeah, I think it's a real hunger Because, like, there's insane people, right, and you know, there's TERFs and there's gender critical people who are going to attack you, brianna, for anything you say, even like the most innocuous, like, oh, we're just like anyone else, we like doing our hair Somehow. That's a story, right, that's ridiculous. And but then there's so many normal people who just want to have good conversations and they don't have crazy opinions, they don't think that, like you know, not calling someone like Zeezer is violence, right. There's just normal people out there and those people, like Cenk, are interested in having these connections.

Schyler 2:18:32

Can we do the milkmaid discourse? Yes, yes. Yes, oh, my God, all right, we are still recording, and Okay, perfect, yeah, so conversations like this always make me think about you know how we frame ourselves publicly, like what we choose to share and why. So, like you know, in that vein, I honestly couldn't resist to bring up this milkmaid dress drama. Have you all seen it that like, yes with dress, yes, pose, and now there's like a whole debate on like what's modest and what's not tough.

Brianna 2:19:11

This was your, your topic.

Taf 2:19:13

I think you've got to introduce it, girls oh yeah, I mean people have just been talking on twitter about this dress. It's kind of like I don, I don't know, it's sexy. It shows off your boobs, it shows off your legs. I think it's notable because it's maybe like the first women's clothing item to be marketed entirely towards like right-wing internet anons on the internet, like you didn't know that the title of the dress is like the raw milkmaid dress and it's just like it's all like mommy milkers and I don't know hot farm lady, trad wife things. And so there's been lots of drama about it because, on one hand, it's like gratuitous marketing and it's, quite frankly, is not like the highest quality dress as well. You know, I'm looking at it. It looks like really thin material and it's like priced really expensively, um, but at the same time I do think it's like it doesn't look bad necessarily, like if it was 50 I would be like sure, like I would potentially buy that, um, and I think, I think, yeah, I think I have, I own dresses which look very similar. They're just like. I think much better. Um, it's really, it's kind of like a dupe of this, like reformation. I think it's reformation dress. Uh, oh, no, it's not reformation, it's house of CB. It looks like a dupe of this house of CB dress, which I love.

Taf 2:20:45

It went like super viral cause it is just gorgeous and it's like pretty well-made, and so I really don't think the problem is like how the dress looks exactly. There's like all of these other problems, and so people get like locked into these cycles of arguments. This happens like all the time on every issue. Yep, we're like really they're arguing about like one thing, but it's really not about that, and so I feel like people have had this instinct to be like oh, it's an ugly dress, and even like I kind of have the instinct to say that um, but what I really mean is like it's ugly for the price and like the marketing is ridiculous and like I can't imagine an actual woman being like this is a great dress that I like want to buy. It's like the kind of thing for men to be like. You know, this is what women should dress like. It's like sexy and whatnot, so it's crazy, but I don't know what are your takes on it?

Schyler 2:21:33

kind, of like. To me it was an interesting. When I was looking at the dress I was like this really teases that boundary of like traditional, but with, you know, a little bit of modern, like modern touches on it like the low cut what is?

Brianna 2:21:48

it is definitely feminine. What's what's modern about it, though? Like it's got a corset built in.

Schyler 2:21:54

In a really traditional dress like that I don't. It wouldn't be so low and exposing like that upper part of the chest, it would be so much more modest and like I mean, it would still have that flowy and like lacy aesthetic. But it's like you took the best elements of victoria's secret and merge them with like trad wife vibes, like cottagecore vibes, and that's what made this dress and this one was like wow, this is so interesting and it made me think about how they're trying to appeal to those like those types of aesthetics that are traditional but also like play to the, to the I don't know the landscape of social media and just like how you get attention and like what's gonna sell. And so it just like I was like because you know, in real life I just can't see the people in the 1800s wearing this no, but here it is not.

Taf 2:22:47

Yeah, yeah, like it's not actually trash. There's an amazing, no sage pervert tweet where he's like they should just do only fans. It'd be more honest than this. And it gets trotted out whenever a woman is like doing something gratuitous on the inside, which which is obviously sexualizing herself, but she sort of pretends that it's not. This is like that, where it's like you are sexualizing yourself and I think that's okay. You should sexualize yourself, but it's not trad at all. Just enjoy being a sexy, pretty lady.

Brianna 2:23:19

Okay, so I have many thoughts.

Kelly 2:23:20

I have no discourse, though, because isn't that where it all started was if, like trad, wives show their toes or not?

Brianna 2:23:27

oh, I don't know. I don't know this. What is this?

Taf 2:23:30

wait, I'm looking at the original photo taft set in the group chat and it was like oh, real trad wives would not show their toes oh, I mean, I think I might have just sent like some sort of screenshot about it, but yes, I think that, like one of the takes maybe is that, like you know, real tradwives wouldn't do this, and it's like it's basically accurate. Like you know, real tradwives, you know they're like a stocky woman who's birthed like six children and works on the farm and she's like hard as nails and she's not, you know, a model with G cup breasts. So you know not, I am great to be a model g-cup breasts, but um sure it's not trad.

Brianna 2:24:08

Yeah I mean what I see when I look at this, when I see, when I look at this dress, is like it's cut so it's way over on the shoulder, so you're gonna have to wear a strapless bra with it, which is not comfortable. I'm sorry, like I will do anything to avoid that. So, like a, this is not like a dress that you just throw on. This is a whole look that you're going for and you're going to be suffering all day because of it. And when I look at this dress, it's like it, the fabric of it looks so insanely cheap, so cheap, and it's not that like. I'm not like if you have large boobs, like more power to you, but it's just like.

Brianna 2:24:48

I'm thinking about this as someone who, like probably understands a little bit more about the aesthetic and what is required to look like that than most men, and I'm just like this is this. It's trashy. It's not trashy because of her body, it's trashy because the quality of the dress is not at the quality of her makeup and hair and beauty to like live up to that level. Does that kind of make sense to y'all?

Taf 2:25:18

yeah, well, okay, yeah, maybe you're saying, tell me if I'm getting this. Yeah, like, um, she's gorgeous and she, uh, she wears the dress. But I'll look another woman, the dress is gonna wear her and it's like not gonna work right, yes, 100, I think so. I think so because it's just, at the end of the day, like it's a dress which is like delivering on a fantasy that is like is not really real. I mean, the whole trad thing is like kind of a fantasy.

Taf 2:25:47

It's like a hollywood, you know, version of what the 1950s looked like and just, yeah, it's just, it's not like practical, it's not like a real thing, which is why, of course, we met marketed towards men who like don't really understand this, yeah, or or models, like you know, I think there's like some model that I saw who was like I would wear this dress and it would look good, and it's like, yeah, you would, because you're like this gorgeous supermodel, you can get away with this, but, um sure, yeah, not for most women well, yeah, and it's one thing to wear it for like taking pictures and like putting out an aesthetic and make something look like this way.

Schyler 2:26:25

I'm not going to pick this dress out of my closet and go oh yeah, I'm going to wear this out on my farm for like anything I'm doing Like I'm not going to wear this in real life and practical day in, day out, it's so cleavage-y.

Brianna 2:26:36

I wouldn't wear this anywhere. To be honest with you, I don't know what's crazy about it.

Kelly 2:26:43

There's nothing bad taste, because I could see myself, maybe not with the shoes, maybe I would do something a little more casual than heels, but I feel like you could pull this off. And I mean, I know, brie, you were saying you had to wear a strapless bra, but if it's not super see-through, you could probably get away with going bra-free.

Taf 2:27:00

Well, also the corset. I don't know how good the corset is, but of course it will help you with this, and that's true. The dress that I have, which is again very similar, it also has a corset, but the corset is like what provides the support so you actually, like don't necessarily need a bra, um, so, yeah, it doesn't look like there's any structure there. Look at that. No, yeah, I don't know. Again, it's like it's a dupe right which is like I don't know, it's not that original of a dress. It doesn't really mean to the designer. I'm sure she like worked hard on it, but, um, no, it's, I don't know. I agree, kelly, that like I would wear this if it was like 50, um, and I don't think the actual cut is like that ugly. I like dresses which are like sexy and I have large breasts, so like that works, but it is just like everything surrounding it which I find sort of like ostentatious.

Schyler 2:27:59

Yeah, and I have to wonder, like, if you're wearing this and you go to a party, are you signaling something about your political beliefs?

Taf 2:28:09

absolutely, did you guys see like the barbara nationalism discourse? No, okay, I think I'm just in like totally different twitter spheres sometimes. But, like you, a month back in November, people were discussing barber jackets which are like this British brand. They do like kind of like country jackets and they people are saying like it's a symbol of like Britain and like kind of like British nationalism and British character, kind of like British nationalism and British character. And so I do think that like there are clothes that you can totally wear, that within certain circles, especially like right-wing circles, they tell like something about your politics. So I'm very-.

Navigating Breast Size and Stereotypes

Brianna 2:28:55

You know what I think this comes Taff, did you see this, cause I know you're into fashion too Did you see? It was in Vogue? We covered this on Rocket. It was in Vogue like three years ago and the headline was like boobs are over, and it was this move away from cleavage itself as being like a Stavis symbol or something you showed that was considered attractive.

Brianna 2:29:18

And I've always felt really torn on this because for me're, if you're asking what I think is personally more pretty, I think small boobs are just that's what looks pretty to me.

Brianna 2:29:30

Well, you can say that I just I think like that looks more elegant to me, but I also it's like I've got friends of mine and they just are large chested. They didn't ask to be born that way and it's like just everything makes them look that way because they're super skinny and they've got big boobs right and I think like it's uh, they've told me stories of what it's like to like be at work and trying to wear like big, heavy jackets over it to hide it. And I kind of don't like the other side of it, where, you know, big boobs or cleavage is considered like inherently slutty or sexual, because I think like there's some tops like that, just depending on what your boobs look like. That's just what it's going to be. So I don't know. I feel like we're going so hard on this discourse. It's just like I think it's a double-edged sword both ways that that makes sense, I totally agree.

Taf 2:30:26

Um, so, like I have breast implants and there are like certain pieces of clothing that I feel like uncomfortable wearing because I think they're like they make my breasts look like too big and I think that there's like it is a challenge to dress around large breasts, not just because of that, but also like lots of clothing is just not made for it and so it'll look, it'll make you look like fat because it like hangs off a certain way. It makes like, it makes it look like your belly is like extended. Um, so it's like a massive pain, if you have big boobs, to dress in a way that is like conservative, that isn't like showing off your chest and that like actually makes you look good. So it's like not really an enviable position. If you're a woman with like larger breasts who really doesn't want to like sexualize herself, you know, if you do want to sexualize yourself, awesome, there's. It's easier to do that if you have large breasts, absolutely. But no, it's like hard. So yeah, and like definitely sucks.

Schyler 2:31:36

I see all those things I'm like, those are all positives for me, aside from that last one you listed about like looking attractive or whatever I'm like, I don't mind it. Like same for me. Like I have breast implants and I like I mean I love it, I can like show it off and like, especially for that male attention, I have no problem at all. And so like I'm like work with your assets but also at the same time I'm wearing a Christmas sweater today because it's the holidays and I have no problem like just throwing on a sweater or something that just kind of takes out that you know, projection of the mid region and makes it like look a little bit, you know, less sexualized, because you know there are times where that's appropriate and there's times where it's not. And it's like, I don't know, I feel like there's like I don't know, I feel like there's I don't feel like it's that hard to, you know, work around large breasts, but maybe that's just do you think guys really feel that way?

Brianna 2:32:29

like I guess, kelly, I'd ask you because you kind of understand only fans more than I do like are not, like they're all guys into big boobs. Or because I think, like when I think about what's pretty about women, like being very thin and perbreasted, like that, to me that's really really beautiful. Like are there not guys that are really into that?

Kelly 2:32:51

I mean, I think there's just like boob guys, and then I think there's like butt guys. Right, like everyone's just into something different, but I think everyone typically likes both.

Taf 2:32:59

It's just there's a preference for one or the other yeah, totally in fact, like rich men actually prefer smaller boobs, um. So we've, like you know, survey data on this and it seems like poorer men are more interested in like this is interesting um, gender, uh dysmorphia. And rich men are more interested in like signals of youth. So, yeah, it seems like guys who lower on the economic totem pole they're interested in like big butts and big boobs, um, but then guys who are wealthier, they they tend to like look for signals of youth and like sometimes like thinness and sort of like smallness can be a signal of youth. So it just like it seems like different people fall into different like sexual modes, um, and like different things. And I, I'm definitely I fall into like the, I like very curvaceous women, um, but that's not like every man or every, you know, female attracted person likes that. So, yeah, I think it just varies between people.

Schyler 2:34:08

That's interesting. I feel like the signals of youthfulness. I feel like are we really like so the curvature, or like having bigger breasts is associated with not being as youthful? Because I feel like that really, oh, I just didn't. I mean, okay, I as youthful. Because I feel like that really, oh, I just didn't. I mean, okay, I don't know Right.

Taf 2:34:29

And she's got like mommy milkers and like those wide like birthing hips. That's like mommy milkers. Yeah, we're breaking the the doll cast barrier Same with the milkers. But yeah, like the kind of milfy look is like we're breaking the doll cast barrier Same with the milkers, but yeah, like the kind of milfy look is like, you know, large breasts, large butt, very curvaceous, and then there's like kind of like a more youthful look which is like generally like daintier and like thinner. So, yeah, I mean now in like practice, does you know, having like big boobs make you look older? Not necessarily, right.

Taf 2:35:07

It's just that like there's probably some sort of psychological thing that's happening within people where it's like there's like a cost in terms of like time in order to figure out if your partner is like male or female, and so, like some Beatles they'll have like sex with like the males, like two males will have sex with each other. It's not because they're gay, they just like can't tell at all if the beetle they're having sex with as a boy or girl. Yeah, very androgynous society. And so like they just like don't engage in this like calculation, that's gonna be rape in great britain very soon.

Taf 2:35:47

Oh god, not good, yeah, but, um, sorry and so, but like humans, we do do this calculation and so, like, having big breasts is like a indicator of like femininity and that can be like an indicator of like fertility. Um, and so I think I've heard it's been a long time since I like looked into this but, like wealthier men, they can rely on other signals of like male and female better, and so they have like more incentive to look for like youth infertility. I don't know like how true that is. I'm you know I'm recounting this like secondhand, but I think that was like the explanation, vaguely, that I heard for this.

Brianna 2:36:25

How did? How did you all decide how big to go? Because I remember like first of all I got like no, this is before I really understood progesterone and how to go. So like I got very little breast development and I was ultra marathoning at the time. So like not a lot of development there and it was really hard for me Like I will never forget. The night before I got my breast augmentation I thought about going C-cup and I had a good friend of mine who had really good taste, a cis woman. She pulled me aside and she goes Bree. I'm just flat out going to tell you this is way out of proportion to your body. It looks trashy, do not do this, go smaller. And I was like okay, and I went in the next day and I got my breast augmentation and I thank Jesus every day that she pulled me aside and did that because it was such a good call. Like how did y'all, did you talk to friends that you trusted?

Schyler 2:37:24

Or how did you kind of decide that, yeah, very similar. Yeah, I talked to a couple of friends and you know it was like, well, what would you think? And I mean, a lot of them were similar recommendation, like go smaller. But I kind of was like thinking through my, my personal philosophy on this, and I was like, could I regret going too small?

Schyler 2:37:42

And for some reason, that was sort of the theme in my mind was like I'd want to, I'd rather go larger than smaller, and the one thing I did take away, though, was, um, not to go too big, and so I ended up just asking my surgeon, like, can you just, you know, feel out what you think looks the best in terms of balancing my proportions to my body so that it doesn't look unnatural? Because that was really my motivation was just to look natural. Your proportions look great, you're great. Yeah, thank you, and I wanted it to really frame in my shoulders so they didn't stand out that much, and that was. And well, yeah, that's what he did. He didn't go as big as we had planned, because he saw on the surgery table, he was like it's, this isn't going to work as well as I thought. We're going to go just a little bit smaller than what we had planned, and I was really grateful for that.

Taf 2:38:33

That makes sense.

Kelly 2:38:36

What about you, Kelly, to like family or friends about like the sizing? I kind of just like knew I wanted to go for like as big as I could, at least initially, and then, yeah, once you kind of get to a certain size though, it's kind of hard to go smaller. So I kind of stayed at like that C range. I never quite got to a D. Yeah, I mean I'm happy with that size. I couldn't imagine like sometimes I think I would have been happier a little bit smaller. I kind of had the same philosophy that you had Sky, where I was reading online a lot that a lot of women regret not going bigger and they have regret, yeah, Interesting. So I didn't want to be that person. So. But I'm pretty happy with the size of my boobs. I wanted them to be kind of on the larger size, so I I'm happy do you know something?

Kelly 2:39:23

they get in the way if you're running or whatever no, no, if you have a sports bra on, not at all I.

Taf 2:39:29

I always wear a sports bra, though, if I go for like a locker and right, yeah, I have this like super powerful sports bra which I use for jump roping um, and it works, works like a charm. But I I heard the same thing that, like most people regret um not going slightly bigger. So I just like, I totally just like consulted the surgeon and was like you know what's gonna work, um, and then I went just like a little bit on the upper end of his recommendation range and, yeah, I'm totally happy with it.

Taf 2:40:03

I do think I think sometimes they're like too big for me, um, just like certain like clothing, I'm like, ah, this is like you know, I feel like dressed down or I feel like, oh god, I want to like wear, like you know, a jacket to this thing, because I'm wearing a dress which like totally shows them, totally shows them off. So I do get that, but it's also, I think, 90% of the time. I'm like this is good. Also, in terms of like shape, I think going bigger and like proportion-wise really worked, especially like when I'm not wearing clothes. So I'm very happy about that. I think if I were to go smaller, it would not like fit my frame properly. So I think I ended up going with exactly what I was looking for.

Brianna 2:40:48

Yeah, I think it's just my perspective. I think as you get older, like you know, for most women, as they've like given birth, you know so your breasts get bigger when you're lactating and all of that like large breasts are a sign of having been through childbirth, right. So I think, like if you're talking about like looking younger, I think you know small breasts are kind of inherently tied to that a little bit yeah, and if you have bigger breasts, you can wear the raw milkmaid dress so where's that?

Schyler 2:41:20

everyone loves. Oh my god, speaking of that milkmaid dress, do we feel like someone like um? You know the recent buzz around lily phillips. Do we think she could wear this?

Taf 2:41:39

oh my god, let's talk about as long as that is a hundred men absolutely crazy.

Schyler 2:41:46

I know. Just the whole, the whole thing it's like it honestly is kind of depressing to me in a way. You know, I wish I could be like more sex positive about this. But a hundred guys like, oh you know, not only is that, what damage is that going to do to your body, like holy crap, I can't imagine how she would feel physically after that, but just emotionally too, I'm like I feel like that would just I don't know, I, I don't even want to go there because of just what it would do to your self-esteem, just like can we give people a background of what we're talking about here, just so they can know?

Schyler 2:42:24

yeah, yeah, so we're. We're talking about the, the lily phillips um documentary that was she made with um josh peters. It was posted to youtube not that long ago and it was all about her hooking up with a hundred guys in one night, um for content that she could post to her only fans, um. And so she did a whole documentary about this, following her from the weeks before all the way through to the night of and a little bit afterwards.

Questioning Societal Expectations on Sex

Lily 2:42:50

It's not like just having sex with someone, yeah yeah, just one in, one out Like it feels intense.

Kelly 2:42:58

Like more intense than you thought it might, definitely. Sorry, it's okay, just take a seat. Yeah, one minute. Like more intense than you thought it might Definitely? Oh no, sorry, it's okay, just take it easy. Yeah, one minute. I think I was well.

Lily 2:43:23

You know, when I talked to you last I was not nervous. It was like the day before I was like, oh, I'm so nervous, but it was good. It was more. I guess the interactions weren't like I'd have to stop them early and like you'd have to stand on business and be like I'm so sorry you got to go and like the awkward interaction of, like you feeling pressure to have to make them come if, like you, haven't spent enough time with them, and feeling like in terms of, like, how she felt and what the logistics were like, bringing in all these guys, um, and just kind of like documenting her feelings throughout this whole process, um, and so there are a lot of reactions.

Schyler 2:44:04

There have been a ton of reactions to this actually, um, a lot of strong feelings and a lot of people condemning it actually, um, and saying, like these are the problems of what's happened with society these days in terms of, you know, the issue of there being just the one model of consent is all that matters, and what happens to yeah, to people when. Okay, if that's all that matters, then there's nothing wrong with this. But everyone kind of sees that now there is a little bit of something wrong with this.

Brianna 2:44:36

Well, okay, so I have. I don't want to be accused of being sex negatives. I will just remind everyone when I ran for Congress, I literally ran on like I think sex work should be legal. I think it just does so much damage pushing all of this underground. But just because something should be legal and a woman should have the right to make up her own mind about her profession, that doesn't mean sex work is always a good decision or it's negative.

Brianna 2:45:04

And you know, what I see is a generation of young women that are told like there's a really easy way to sexualize yourself get a ton of attention, get a ton of money on onlyfans and I think it's true that some women are just so beautiful that they are going to do very well on that and it's a good economic decision. But at the same time, I wish we could have like a a more open discussion about what like the potential, what the entire range of these choices does to you. Um, I think the video of watching her after the fact, like she looked like she'd been to war, like it was really difficult to see and I'm not saying that as someone that's like oh, these women out there whoring themselves around, like let's judge them. It's like you know. Can we actually talk about this? Does that make sense to y'all? Do you know where I'm coming from?

Schyler 2:45:56

Yeah, well, I think there's a huge difference between someone who's putting out this event of a hundred men in 24 hours versus making only fans content, or even being a porn star and doing, like, small scale shoots, um, or even large scale shoots, but it's, it's not the same thing as promoting a hundred guys in a night, like it's just this whole new level of um, the amount of, well, just okay. Yeah, it's a different category in my view.

Kelly 2:46:25

Yeah, I feel like I'm getting more sex negative the older I get, really, and it kind of sucks that we're even talking about this, because I feel like we're giving her exactly like what she wanted, which is attention and just emotion, because this is just inevitably going to make her more money, which I know is like the goal. But yeah, I don't know as someone that's like in sex work to a degree, it's just like I don't wish I was here, like still doing this. Like I have so many regrets about starting it and I feel like that's a majority of the women in the industry that have been doing it for as long as I have, but you kind of just feel like you're doing it still because you already started, so I stopped. Um, yeah, I don't know. It just makes me really sad because I I think it's very clear that at the end of the day, like this is all about money and clout or both one of the two Um, and I just feel bad for her. I just can't imagine like the psychological or the emotional damage after doing something like that.

Kelly 2:47:24

Like I know, like people like to act like oh, be sex positive, like women as long as they consent, like it it'll, it'll have no effect on anyone. Women can have like a sex life with like multiple men and hook up with a ton of different people and be totally fine, but I just don't. That's not my experience, that's not the experience I've seen of all the girls that were hooking up with tons of guys in college and how it affected them I don't know. I think we need to have a deeper conversation at some point and admit that sex for men and women is different and I think it affects us differently. And I'm not saying there aren't an outlier here or there of women. Maybe there are some girls that just love for lack of a better word, like being hoarse, and it just doesn't affect them. But I think for a majority like that's just not the case, right? What do you guys agree?

Brianna 2:48:10

I mean exactly right yeah, I would love to know what, when you talk about the downsides for you, what, what are those? What have you experienced? What is that like?

Kelly 2:48:21

um, you know it's it's hard to talk about because I don't want people to like use it against me almost when I I feel like I like show like the vulnerability of that stuff.

Kelly 2:48:30

Um, I think it's just that people having access to what I look like and just my body and um just having people like pick it apart and like seeing the constant, like the dialogue of that, I think it's also just like how your reputation gets affected, just know, because you know you can like know these things at like 18, but then you know you hit like 25 and I just feel like your perspective on a lot of those things changes. I know we love to say like being 18, like oh, you're an adult now, like everything's changed, but really I feel like what they say about your frontal lobe is like so true. I really feel like mid-20s is when you kind of really understand like the gravity of like the decisions you're making. Um, so, yeah, it's just like reputation, opportunities for the future, people dissecting your body, just just all that stuff well, I think you're drop dead gorgeous in every picture you put online, so take that.

Brianna 2:49:24

I think you have nothing to be ashamed of with any of that it is a deep problem, though.

Taf 2:49:31

Um, I think in reflecting on it she said something like it's really hard to let people down once you've already promised something, and I think that we all sort of walk around in our day-to-day lives with this feeling that we are in control of what we're doing and we're like actively choosing how to act. But if you've ever experimented with drugs, you realize pretty quickly that what is going on chemically in your brain affects how you act a lot and you can have the feeling of like being in full control and not actually be in control at all.

Taf 2:50:15

You know, starting picking uh five ants list x amphetamine and realizing that like, um, a lot of my like day-to-day experience is me just like convinced that I'm in control of how I'm acting, when really I have like very little control of what I'm doing and I'm getting like sucked into chasing this thing or that thing, uh, and I really don't have the option to choose, not to go down a rabbit hole of thought or action or whatever it is. And so, suddenly, having that dopamine pathway in my brain changed, I had this feeling like, oh, I see something in my environment and I can choose not to think about it. That was like totally mind blowing to me, and I didn't realize before then that I, like, was operating my entire life without that like feeling of choice. Or, you know, even if I had the choice, I just felt like I was actively choosing it.

Taf 2:51:17

And so, you know, sex is just so powerful, and so are the social currents around us, and I think that women especially are so vulnerable to being pushed by those social currents that sometimes I think it makes the challenge of consent really hard. And so when I see someone like Lily Phillips, who has had sex with a hundred men, then she looks like shell shocked afterwards and she's saying, like you know I don't think I'd recommend it, but you know I just felt like, you know, it'd be really hard to let people down after I promised it. That's like horrifying. And you know society should probably not be putting people in the position where this kind of behavior is, you know, totally rewarding in terms of attention and money.

Brianna 2:52:14

I mean what I like Kelly, you'll back me up on this I guess someone with a vagina I don't understand how, like five guys could be pleasurable like that is going to physically hurt you after a while. Like I understand it can't be like it's all your clit. It's not a mystery, right? It's just penetration, like at a certain point, like is there, where's the like? I understand there's some, like even cis women with like a degradation fetish, I guess, but it's like I just I can't. I I can't understand where I. I understand wanting to make money from it. I, I personally have such a hard time understanding where that would be exciting, like, like what even part of psychology would that tap into? Because, like, my pussy hurts just thinking about that.

Kelly 2:53:09

So yeah, I don't think it is exciting. I think it's 100% about money and clout. It's just about like getting followers, getting us to talk about her. Just I mean she'll probably, I don't know, but she'll hold up because, like, look at, like Hawk Tua, you know, not that like she's even on like the same level as this, like at all, but you know even just her being like a meme, like she took off an entire career. I'm sure like she's thinking, oh, if I get known for this, I can spin it into a bigger adult career or a regular career in general, you know or cryptocurrency scale yeah, that's it.

Kelly 2:53:43

Yeah, I know um the hogs. You girl just did one of those. Huh, I didn't. I don't know what it's called though just wait till doll coin comes out.

Schyler 2:53:52

It's gonna be very exciting and all the investors invest in doll coin yeah, I think when I was just watching the documentary and one of the moments that really struck me, where I was like oh, there's something really wrong here. And it was just an instinct, like it's really hard for me to put into any kind of like concrete wording what is explicitly wrong in this situation, because technically there is consent and from a legal standpoint that is sort of the framework I would shape this around. But then there's the other layer, that like higher level of morality, of like just because it's okay or legal to do it, from that perspective, is this something you should do? And it became a lot more tangible that no, this really doesn't look like something you should do, based on one point where josh earlier in the documentary this is before she's hooked up with a hundred men asks her so what are your hopes and aspirations for, like you know, getting married or like settling down, and she literally responds it's like, well, there's so many men out there, some poor bastard is just going to have to settle with me.

Schyler 2:55:05

And like it was very close along those lines and I was just like my heart just like broke in half when I was like she has so low self-esteem and it's because of the toll that all of this has taken on her. With her, you know only fans, and there's all these sexual encounters. It just, it just really had a way of like waking me up to the reality that this is going to forever haunt her and be something that, like she has to work past. And it just it breaks my heart that this is getting platformed and I'm like what can we do to like culturally change this where it's not like a legal thing? Because I don't think this is a legal thing, this is like a cultural thing and I just, I don't know, I'm like left with no answers.

Taf 2:55:51

I think Mary Harrington, she's like a reactionary feminist. I think I saw her discussing this on Twitter and her angle, which you know, I haven't deeply explored, but it was questioning the agency that people have. Yeah, maybe the term she used was like the myth of female agency, where I think sometimes people are yeah, because it's really when we say that we're hitting it very deeply held, uh, cultural expectations like the idea that women have agency, very important, you know, in so many ways to our cultural foundation, so it's difficult to challenge that. And I think that, um, her, her point is something like, many times when we look at these situations, you know, know, it's easy to dismiss it as like a matter of consent, like, if you know, if she consented it's okay, and it's sort of it fails to account for all the ways in which humans can believe they're consenting and actually, like, not really want to be in that situation.

Taf 2:57:06

And so, you know, the lily phillips situation, it just strikes me so different from someone like ayla. Like ayla, you know, I think brianna knows her um, she, she's the one who, like, is responsible for the fluffer meme, like came in fluffer meme and she does these like birthday gang bangs. I am a hundred percent convinced that, like ayla has very little psychological damage as a result of this, oh, and she's just like she's very unique in the way that her brain works and for her I think that like she is the kind of like you know, probably autistic, kind of robotic approach to this which is like very consent based and it works for her. But most people don't have that kind of way of processing the world and you really see it in someone like Lily Phillips, just you know, who seems like utterly destroyed emotionally by this experience.

Brianna 2:58:00

So don't you think, if we're getting back to this myth of consent thing, like I feel as trans women, we really have a front row seat to this that a lot of people miss, just in the sense that it's like we're going through life with the socialization and all of a sudden, like even more than cis women, like your fundamental identity is so based on how hot you are and how sexy you are, like it's really stunning to me to see this in the culture. And yeah, I remember when I was in my 20s and there was so much pressure to like self-sexualize yourself, right. And I think, if you're talking like this myth of this myth of female um, consent on this, I think there's a lot of truth there that everything about society is going well. You know you can choose to do this sex positive, blah, blah, blah.

Brianna 2:58:54

But the truth is we're also living in society where women are so overvalued for our looks and so undervalued for leadership qualities and anything else. There's a natural tendency to make us like competent, second in commands in an organization. Being a female leader is tremendously challenging. I've run teams as a man and a woman and I can tell you, like the, it is so much harder to give feedback or do discipline. As a woman, it's not even close. So I just think like there is a. I think there's a wider discussion here about the illusion of agency, where it's really society is funneling you down a path, if that makes sense.

Taf 2:59:44

Yeah, I think so, and I think that what happens is not that it's obviously literally not the case that women don't have agency, but it's just that society can sometimes convince women that they have agency in something, but really not providing them that many options by really not providing them that many options, and the result is sort of to be trapped by a society which is more than willing to sexualize and exploit someone and really not provide them with an alternative route. And so I think that that is really scary, because it can be so easily papered over with this thing which is just like, well, they just like they consented, and it's like okay, what is the environment in which someone's consenting that is so important? And it's hard to talk about that, but it probably needs to be.

Schyler 3:00:33

Yeah, yeah.

Kelly 3:00:36

It's an interesting conversation because it's like, if there's, if there's no other options, or if society is pushing women so far in this direction, it's like there's, if there's no other options, or if society is pushing women so far in this direction, it's like that there really is no agency then at all, like because, like I know, like taffy, you said like, oh well, obviously there is in general, but it doesn't sound like there is like honestly I guess it's a deep question about, like free will.

Taf 3:00:57

Um, I just mean, I think it'd be unlikely, I think in my mind, if women had, like less free will than men, you know. So I don't think that that's what we're talking about. We're just talking about like, you know, what it means to exist as someone in society, in a society that is like maybe built to kind of sexualize and exploit you, and so when I say like agency, that's kind of what I'm talking about, not like a, you know, biological difference in how the brain processes things. You know, I don't, I couldn't possibly speak to something like that. So, yeah, I don't.

Brianna 3:01:31

I think like this goes all the way around too. Like I think for men there are a lot of messages in society that tell themselves to sacrifice literally their bodies for higher purpose. Like think about how men are pushed into military careers or police careers or security careers, like it's a level of danger I'm certainly not signing up for. So I think like the truth is there's all this stuff that society values about all of us, men and women, that gives us kind of this illusion but it can actually be very damaging. Like Taff, I know, you know my really good friend Connor, and Connor talks very openly about the PTSD of stuff he saw while he was serving as a Marine or as a police officer that he'll close his eyes and yeah, connor is an extremely handsome like dude's dude, right, like he's as macho as it gets. But you know he also can't turn his head to a certain degree because of like injuries that he got serving the country. So I think like this is not something unique to women, if that makes sense yeah, yeah, I think so.

Taf 3:02:40

I think that's an important piece to hit on. It's just that, like people sort of have their agency stripped from them in different ways, and we see this sometimes with women sexualizing themselves. But you can see it elsewhere and it's not even like you just see it all the time. Person, people who are immigrants or low income or whatever. There are tons of institutions, people who are willing to exploit that vulnerability in order to gain something. It's tragic, oh my goodness.

Schyler 3:03:19

Alright, are we good to wrap? Let's roll. Alright, great. So after three hours of shooting, whoa, all right, yeah, so, okay, y'all. What a great start to season two, like from having jank on and talking about all these different topics um, it's always so much fun. I love just hanging out here with you all and just being ourselves and and, and trying to save trans rights A lack of better terms, so, yeah. So just want to say you know to all our listeners. Thank you all so much for listening and tuning in today. Don't forget to check us out on our socials, though.

Brianna 3:03:56

Oh, we have updated socials. Can I explain this to everyone? Go for it. Okay. So by the time this goes live, go to dollcastshowcom. Dollcastshowcom. You can sign up for the video version of this show, which will be on YouTube. If you want it on Pocket Cast or iTunes Podcast or any of the podcast services, it's going to be there, so find everything on Dollcast show. Uh, we are most active on Twitter right now. There's also doll cast show, but we are moving to blue sky this week as well, so there's where everything is Yay.

Expressing Gratitude and Purpose in Podcasting

Schyler 3:04:34

Big shout out to Brie for doing all that heavy lifting Well, thank JK.

Brianna 3:04:38

Rowling. She's the one that kept me up all night, so I just got it all done. Thank you, jk.

Schyler 3:04:44

And if you like what you're hearing in our show, please, please, leave a comment, leave a review, say something, because we could use those positive vibes we would love to you know, shout it out, share it on the show. We're all about that, and so I just want to say again thank you for being part of the Dollcast family and thank you so much for tuning in and with that, we have a special exit today, and that is that. What do we represent here on the show? We represent elite, elite, human traffic, that's it all.

Schyler 3:05:22

All right, human Trapital, that's it all.

Brianna 3:05:24

Honorary shout out to Ananya Alright Elite Human Trapital out Terminated guys.

Schyler 3:05:34

Love it, love it On that note. Stay fabulous and see you next time.

Brianna 3:05:40

Oh, my god Good stuff.

Taf 3:05:43

That was a damn good show. That was a damn good show.