E2x02 "This isn't meant to hurt anyone's feelings" Lisa Elizabeth from Timcast

Buckle up for this fiery episode of Dollcast! We’ve got Lisa Elizabeth from Timcast in the hot seat, and nothing is off the table—politics, identity, and even soap operas lowering birth rates (seriously, that’s a thing). Brianna, Kelly, Skye, and Taftaj dive into spicy debates about immigration, the MAGA-Tech bromance, and whether democracy is just a chaotic reality show at this point. Add in Lisa’s no-nonsense takes and a healthy dose of sass, and you’ve got a must-listen cocktail of humor, insight, and chaos. Don’t miss it!

Transcript

Brianna 0:03

Okay, welcome to Dollcast With.

Taf 0:10

Kelly Cadigan.

Lisa 0:11

I know you guys are going to tell me I'm crazy but I think all gay men would benefit from a gender transition. Rihanna.

Brianna 0:17

Wu.

Lisa 0:18

Do you know who Rihanna Wu is?

Sky 0:19

It was people on the line.

Brianna 0:21

I just asked you about Rihanna Wu. I don't remember who she is now.

Sky 0:24

Skylar.

Brianna 0:25

Bogart.

Sky 0:26

More confused on girls or boys would be a better fit for me, and when you're bisexual and you have the potential for either, you've got to parse that out a little bit.

Taf 0:34

And Taj Tuff, having your story heard, having people empathize with you on that kind of political level, I think it's really hard to do.

Brianna 0:43

It's the Dollcast. Mostly normal women.

Sky 0:51

Hey there, welcome back to Dollcast. I'm your host, skylar, and here we are again with our fabulous co-hosts Brianna Wu and Taftaj. How are y'all doing today?

Brianna 1:03

I think the show is going to take this time I have a good feeling.

Taf 1:07

We had a few issues, for sure.

Sky 1:09

For those of our listeners here. We just had some technical issues and had to redo our show. So yeah, you know real Monday morning vibes.

Brianna 1:18

At least we figured it out like two minutes into the show and not when it was over. So that's like good.

Sky 1:24

Yes, huge shout out to Brie for her monitoring. Yes, careful, yeah, careful. Watching, yeah. So we have a lot of different fun topics today, and we also have a very fun guest that I'm excited to talk with and ask some questions to. First off, how are y'all doing this holiday season? I mean, I don't know about y'all, but I've been crazy busy. How?

Taf 1:54

about you all? Yeah, definitely Super busy. Just finished the, which now I drive, I woke up and started recording the podcast.

Brianna 2:06

And you were listening to the Bible as you're going cross country. That is crazy.

Taf 2:08

I was this was the whole conversation that we had in those two minutes about the book of Judges and the song of Solomon, and it was, it was fantastic.

Brianna 2:19

You'll have to tune into every episode to catch something as good as that so I remember when I was shooting song of You'll have to tune into every episode to catch something as good as that. So I remember when I was shooting Song of Solomon as a kid and I'm like, oh my God, this is like basically porn parts of it.

Taf 2:36

It's kind of hot. Yes, it's poetic. I was definitely jotting down notes so I could write something like that for my girlfriend. It's very nice and it reminds me sort of english romantic poetry. I'm fascinated by the romantic era and literature and art and just like the passion, the, the sensuality that comes through is quite good oh I was a fan, and book of judges is not like that. It's uh, no, it's um. The language is quite antiquated and also it's.

Brianna 3:11

It's quite intense and grisly yeah, have you ever read axe, which is basically a socialist tract? No, it is. It's full of like admonitions to like give away all your money to the poor. Like it's hardcore, like you're like. Oh, they did not believe in a market capitalist economy back in the day.

Taf 3:34

Yeah, definitely not. I mean, it's shocking to read history and see like the mishmash of political ideologies.

Taf 3:41

I was reading about the Sicilian Vespespers, which is this event where, like the sicilians rose up and they killed, like a ton of frenchmen, they're putting up, like you know, october, 7th numbers in the you know, 1300s, and they were ruled by this guy named like charles of anjou and he, um he was like this autistic, like semi-socialist, um, like free trade guy, super, like weird, interesting ideology, um that just like doesn't map on at all to anything in the political current political oh my goodness wow.

Sky 4:19

Well, speaking of political drama, I mean, have y'all been tuning into the h1b debate with bus and though, yeah, oh right, oh my gosh, I've got. Yeah, where does it start? I mean, to an extent this was sort of predictable, at least to me, like I wouldn't say this specific area, but the conflict between, like, the tech right and the mega right. There are some like inherent conflicts that I think are new with this political cycle, that weren't present back in 2016 when, like Trump was kind of running very much solely on like the MAGA. He was sort of creating the MAGA.

Sky 4:57

Um, like you know, right to an extent of like just the make America very pro-nationalist segment of the population is honing that into the energy of his bombastic, unapologetic tone, I guess you could say, with the way he presents and speaks. But now in this election, you have a lot more moderates that got pulled in and you have have like tech leaders like elon musk, great example, and you know that are getting bought in on this vision. But that complicates the narrative for the right now and there's infighting. That's happening, um, and it's like endless entertainment on twitter yeah, it's been quite spectacular to watch.

Taf 5:42

I mean, it's been sort of tragic, I think, for me as well, because I definitely perceive the tech right, which I am much more friendly to, as having lost this sort of first round of infighting.

Taf 5:59

So, yeah, it's a bit rough to see. I just feel like the immigration arguments that I'm hearing are not very good and it's a reminder that Elon Musk, ideologically, is really just a sort of like naive libertarian and so his view on the world does not factor in like deep complexities of politics, like the deep complexities of politics. And yeah, you really see that when he's like sort of citing h1b visas and claiming that like, oh, we need this for the top, like 0.1 engineering talent and that sort of like doesn't really represent, like you know, the cohort of people that are coming in on h1b is and vivac is like jumping in and he's, you know, writing this screed that is, you know, quite insulting to a lot of americans and you know it totally just like plays into this argument that, like indians don't have the same values as americans, because he's like, yeah, we don't have the same values and also our values are better. So it's like, of course, he's just like throwing gasoline on the fire.

Sky 7:03

yeah, what do you Like? Culture of mediocrity, like that's what he basically said of America.

Taf 7:09

Because the whole problem is that, like these flyover Americans, these hobbits, these red staters, they just want to grill and they don't want their way of life to be, like, affected or changed. But of course, you know, vivek is coming in here and he's like actually you do need to change your way of life because it's like not cutting it. And so the reality is that, like they don't need to change, it's like totally fine if you just want to grill and you don't want to, like participate in hustle culture or whatever, um, and you can have a society where people have different cultural values and yet coexist this entirely possible, and yet it seems like that, as a value, has sort of been lost on a lot of americans, both left and right I, I, I don't, I mean I agree and I disagree, tath and I kind of want to go through it like look, obviously the racism of maga is really, really hard to watch.

Brianna 8:06

Like there's a lot of them that just have contempt for Indians and yeah, they're not hype, and I don't think any of us would agree. There is a racially charged element to Trump's coalition, but it would be a huge overstatement to say that's all Republicans. At the same time, like there is a discussion to be had about these trade deals in our immigration policy and what that means for working people. You know, I think in retrospect, I think y'all are too young to really remember Ross Perot running in, I think 1992.

Brianna 8:43

I mean, he famously said you know there was going to be, as we have, this trade deal with Mexico, it was going to hollow out a lot of working class jobs, and he was 100% right on that.

Immigration, Economics, and Cultural Issues

Brianna 8:55

So I think, like, when you're looking at the H-1B system, two things are true Like I know for a fact I've seen this in the tech industry to bring in cheap labor so people don't have to pay like a full, like engineer salary, and that just simply has been done. At the same time, like my vision for America is to have the strongest economy, with the very best people here working on the coolest things and living in Boston. You know we have tech and biotech are our two biggest fields and for that we've got to bring in, like the top look at the Moderna vaccine, for instance We've got to have people that can, you know, understand the lipid nanoparticle delivery system. We've got to have people that understand machine learning and deep learning. So, yeah, we've got to have a system where we can bring in elites to fill these jobs. At the same time, we've got to understand that the excesses of this system and the American system overall do tend towards, like lowering wages for workers.

Taf 10:03

And I don't think that's borne out in the data at all. Sure, I think that's it's a big. I think it's a misconception that you see where people believe the economy is sort of a zero sum and that if you bring in, you know, low skilled workers or high skilled workers, that depresses the wages for those groups. I don't think that is shown. I think that what happens is you bring in more of these workers and people end up creating new businesses and new opportunities open up, and that is what always happens.

Taf 10:36

And I think that we have to get past the zero sum thinking. You see, in the left wing, when they talk about like you know, oh, profit is theft or whatever, and you know they get really angry about the capitalists. Or on the left wing, when they talk about like you know, oh, profit is theft or whatever, and you know they get really angry about the capitalists. Or on the right wing, when they talk about like, oh, these immigrants are taking our jobs there. I just don't think they are not at all. And so you know, I think there's real cultural issues and maybe there's like there's crime and whatnot to discuss, and those are real issues. But I think that the economic argument is not very sound for this.

Brianna 11:08

Yeah, do you think there's a trend of outsourcing engineers in the United States?

Taf 11:13

I think there is, but I think immigration is not causing engineers to live in the United States.

Brianna 11:18

Sure, it's two different things. Look, it's one of these things where I think the effects of it are overstated and I was looking at this data yesterday the same way that you were. So, like, if I have to pick a team, I'm obviously pro-immigration. I think one of the ways I've softened on this issue is I think it's really easy for me to say I'm in a house, I make a really good living. I think that there is a lot of resentment with people. That's built up and, true or not, it's giving trump like power. So I don't see like any issue, even if the effect variable is small, like it is with trans children. I think actually it's a good analogy. Just because an effect of something isn't very big, there's an emotional cost to something and it's something that feeling fair to people is very, very powerful. So I don't think it hurts it to like treat those fears seriously and to look at ways that the system can be improved, if that makes sense.

Taf 12:22

Yeah, I mean it's very common, that's so compelling People people have bad beliefs about things like people don't really understand climate change or economics or the covid vaccine or whatever, and it's very frustrating that these people influence politics despite their. Can I just like?

Sky 12:39

jump in and say like this is something I really found true when I was studying economics at undergrad is that the evidence, or what the data says, very rarely actually lines up, in my view, with what the narratives are that really resonate with people.

Taf 12:55

Yes, and people believe that like inflation was rampant leading up to the election. Yes, it wasn't at all like it was declining, so five sessions.

Sky 13:07

So there's this like absolute disconnect and I've kind of I've come to respect what brie is saying about this in the terms of like you have to have an effective narrative to shape that opinion and bring people into understanding your perspective on this, and that that's I see like Musk sort of trying that, like he throws off a couple examples on X with his posts, he's like drops a couple names and for sure there are stories of you know, immigrants that did come on an H-1B visa, like I think of Sun Microsystems and I forget the guy's name, but he came here on an H-1B visa, started that company and it no longer exists but it was widely successful.

Sky 13:48

I think it helped pioneer Java and some technology related to how computers work and file network sharing systems and things like that. Anyways, oracle buys it and Oracle's massive Tons and tons of jobs. So like to say that there isn't. I think there could be a better job done by the tech right on shaping those effective narratives of this working, because I am in the same camp as, like, pro-immigration here. I just think there's like an issue with better narratives.

Taf 14:18

Yeah, I agree, which is what's been really frustrating, I think. Yeah, I mean I don't know. Yeah, I think we're just not making good arguments right now and I would say that we're not addressing, like the real problems of immigration rhetorically. But you know, I just think that those are more so cultural issues and it's pretty hard to govern for a diverse body of people who have radically different views on how things ought to be run, unless you're able to recognize that people really are different in cultural values and what they expect from the world is different. You know, if you have a society and it's all like you know british people who are strictly quiet and polite and whatever, they're going to line up in nice lines, nice cues, they're not going to play like music on the metro, station, subway and they're going to be like sort of quiet and polite, you don't necessarily need laws against you know music. But if you bring people from a different cultural group, they might just not have that same cultural background and so suddenly it becomes necessary to create these rules for regulating public spaces and the result is this tension where people just they recognize that people have different values, different from themselves, and that results in different expectations about how things ought to be run.

Taf 15:39

People don't like when you have to institute these rules, either like. But if people don't like that, they don't like the you have to institute these rules, either Like British people don't like that. They don't like the encroaching authoritarianism necessary to maintain balance and order in a racially diverse society, and so you have to have some ability to recognize that people are different and legislate around them. What I see on the progressive side of things, even like the naive, libertarian side of things, is this inability to understand that people are really very different in so many ways and you have to work with them. So, yeah, I mean I think there's problems with immigration. I would just say that stealing jobs is not really one of them, at least I don't think it's one of the most minimal ones and so it's been frustrating to have this sort of like proxy debate about immigration through economics and, you know, promptly losing because we can't like actually have a discussion about the problems.

Brianna 16:34

No, I certainly agree with that. I think that you know. I also think there's like a national security argument here for all of these policies Right.

Brianna 16:44

I mean like look, for instance, you have my friend Palmer Lucey, right, you know he's working on a lot of national security stuff right now. As far as like a virtual border wall, and I think this makes a lot more sense, like I want the Southern Border Patrol because I worry about sex trafficking and fentanyl being smuggled across, and you know, like there was a story from the Bush era about radiological material being smuggled into this country to do a dirty job it makes a lot of sense to me. Like I really dislike it when Democrats talk about that like it's not important. At the same time, like a wall from sea to shining sea is not really an effective thing. So if you need people out there to develop that technology, we need to be able to go get the very best ML people in the entire world. We need deep learning people, we need drone experts, of which are mostly in China right now. There's this host of like specialties that we need and we just don't generate those in this country at the level that we need to to lead the world's economy.

Brianna 17:50

And something I think when our guest today gets here, a really big difference I have with our guest Lisa today is I do want America that's more engaged in national security, and one of the really big reasons for that is, if we are not in an area, then India and China are going to rush into those areas and it's going to reflect their values and not ours.

Brianna 18:16

And in that same way, if we can't be bringing the top experts in the entire world here in machine learning, ai, deep learning, all these emerging technologies, other countries are going to develop their own Silicon Valley and that's going to be devastating to the United States economy. So I think there's like a middle ground to be rode here, and I think to have one of the differences in our perspective here and maybe this is entirely too charitable on my part, but it feels to me like for Trump 1.0, I really dug my heels in. I was one of those Democrats who was just like we're going to fight him on literally everything, and I think this time what makes more sense to me is to think a little bit more strategically about it, because these same voters that feel that these are issues like they're not going to be convinced with the chart that we put up on msnbc right, we need to really talk to them and make them feel like we're we're standing for them. Just does that kind of make sense to you?

Taf 19:20

yeah, well, there's this, there's this conversation about strategy and rhetoric, for sure yeah, I don't have I.

Sky 19:28

I respect that because the game of the politician is rhetoric like very much, so yeah it's not my game um.

Taf 19:37

I think I would just end up losing eventually, so yeah, no, that's fair.

Taf 22:21

Um so it's very, it's very challenging, it is very hard, yeah, and there's not a lot of incentive to like search out for economic facts where most people, right, they're simply just you know, let's say that you are some like MAGA guy, right, like you work as you know, a middle class job, you're like a plumber or something. You don't have a ton of free time and you're faced with the choice like, okay, I could spend like two years just like learning about economic policy and economic data and reading studies, and at the end of all of that I would have like a good understanding of the immigration debate, a deep understanding of that debate. And what does that get him? Like, well, now he can vote in like a slightly more informed way, but he's not writing economic policy, he's not working at an economic think tank or as an economist in any sense, and so really the incentive to do all of that research is basically zero.

Taf 23:20

And yet he has a sort of idea about how these things work and he has an idea about competition. And well, if laborers come in and they start working a job that is similar to mine, then I'm going to be competing with them. That idea is simple and powerful and it's not going to be easily defeated, and so I think what we have here across so many different topics the climate or what have you is just an information problem, where the people and either there should be some sort of technocratic elite ruling things, or a monarch or a CEO or something Right, and we need to solve the information problem through our system. But unfortunately we don't live in that world, and so you have to play this game of like rhetoric and cajoling, no-transcript, persuading the establishment class. Is that what we're talking about? The narratives, and it's.

Brianna 24:58

It's sort of nonsense, because we're a race with reality and reality always wins season two, episode two, the episode, the task to stay for democracy, not to stay in democracy, finally come out. I just hate populism. There was a Wall Street Journal piece that came out just a few days ago that was all about like Biden's presidency and why he was so senile and how he was able to hide it for so long. It was just brutal. It was absolutely brutal. He didn't even meet with like his defense secretaries or his commerce secretary and just like his people. It really showed to get to your point half. It really showed like this technocratic elite that's actually controlling things. I'm not talking state, but there is a machine for making these decisions that I think in one way, is to the Democrats' favor that we bring in people that are very good at running that machine.

Brianna 25:56

I think Biden was a consequential president, but I think the American people were voting to kind of throw a wrench into that machine and break it because of perceptions about the economy that I think all of us agree, may or may not be so true, completely agree. Yeah, of Dahlkast is I have been in the middle of an all-out culture war for a decade of treating the other side like they're Satan and trying to defeat them as a way to get public policy, and there's not ever going to be a future where we destroy people in the country or vote them out. That don't feel like the American system is serving them. So what is the answer there? I'm not trying to message it and I'm not trying to hide my intentions here. I'm just asking really genuinely this is our way of government? What is the way forward? Because something has got to change here.

Sky 27:02

Right and I think I mean that's sort of like what ties in when you were talking about Biden and, like you know, increasingly senile, like appearance and like what was kind of coming through. I think it kind of dropped the veil in a way and in a way that wasn't anticipated for Americans, that was like hey, who's really running policy here? Who's really making decisions? It's not who we elected, it's not who the people chose, it's this establishment behind them. And when it came to the election, just like you were talking about there, I felt like this was a common issue.

Sky 27:40

I, in my friends talking about Kamala, was like, you know, she just kind of bought and paid for by the Democrats, like does she actually have any of her own original ideas or thoughts on these things?

Sky 27:51

Like it wasn't necessarily. It wasn't that I felt like she didn't, it was that her messaging was way too scripted and controlled. And it's a classic problem that I'm seeing a lot more with the Democrats and the Republicans and even though I think at the end of the day, both parties are bought and paid for ultimately with their candidates, I think Trump at least could sort of like fake and run on the oh yeah, drain the swamp, you know, like, et cetera, like, at least he tried to look like he was opposing the establishment, even though in reality, I mean, he's just giving money to his, his cronies. Ultimately he's the crony capitalist. Um, when it comes to like a politician's at least from my point of view, when I've seen the policies he puts through but at least he tries to say he's for the people, whereas kamala just the distance was just too great, and I mean trump is very authentic, if anything.

Taf 28:44

he sort of says what's on his mind. People can see that because he's willing to say inflammatory things. They know he's not, you know, just feeding them another line, another bullshit, you know talking point. Because he has no patience for those things and he really sticks his foot in his mouth so often that if he was like trying tactical, he'd be like you know, he must just not have any team or anything behind him, right? No one who is trying to be tactical acts like trump, and so people can very clearly see that trump is you know authentic, you know hate it or love it, so people like him for that.

Taf 29:21

But also like the good thing about trump, at least from the conservative or from the perspective of like sort of technocratic person, is that Trump, he has his pet issues and then he can be sort of like pushed around on other things. There was like a statement from trump where trump was ultimately backing elon on this and being like no, it is important that we have h1b systems that are working to get, you know, workers into the country and making our economy stronger, and so like. Despite it all trump's like boomerism and narcissism of just like not really deeply caring about whatever is being hashed out on twitter, it results in a favorable outcome which is like okay, well, he is, at the end of the day, he was in support of it sort of like technocratic.

Taf 30:15

Um yeah, he was. He was in favor of elon musk's like position. He sort of came out on his side now, that's not to say like trump isn't sort of isolationist, protectionist type who really does like have policies in mind which are going to hurt the US economy, despite all their attempts to make things smooth and based on logic and rationality. There has to be some give in the system and it is, you know, the American voter, as misinformed as they are going to get policies that they like.

Brianna 30:58

So how do you I've always wanted to ask you this how do you kind of square the circle between like suspicion of the circle between like suspicion of like I think we share the assessment of the weakness of democracy in this moment, like a question I've really increasingly been asking myself and again, this is good faith is like it really seems to me that democracy plus the information age seems like a combination that's very hard to overcome. Because if you look through American history at you know the Hirsch empire, like you provide the pictures, I'll provide the war. Or you know I live here in Boston. It's like Samuel Adams was a radical propagandist that just wrote a bunch of bullshit and passed it out from his tavern to people. Right, like democracy was hard enough to work in those days. Like if you have the history of the Alien Sedition Acts today, like I know firsthand from my job, like I can go into.

Brianna 32:03

Like if I'm trying to get someone elected, so if I'm trying to get someone elected, I did a series of ads where I literally went into a school district and I found parents and I found out which school their children went to and I showed a picture of that school and I had my candidate saying I went to blah blah blah school the other day and and we're going to get money for them and it's going to be great, like that's how micro-targeted you can get in your messaging.

Brianna 32:32

And it's really hard for me to think, like at a certain point, like this is large data aggregation and micro-targeting, like with messages. Like how is the theory of democracy supposed to work in this environment when every single incentive is to just tell people what they want to hear? Like if you look at the trans channels out there, a lot of them we do a sophisticated show that's really thinking about issues. A lot of them are just react content to whatever stupid thing happened that day and it's a very successful formula. So how do we kind of square that circle and still believe in democracy when it seems like it's fundamentally working less and less with this technology age that we're in?

Democracy, Politics, and Representation

Taf 33:30

Yeah, it's a difficult question. Maybe the strongest argument for democracy is that there aren't a ton of other good systems. This is the Churchill quote, which is, like you know, democracy is failures. Conceptually, it seems to work out, and America is like the strongest country in the world and has all of these good things going for it. So, on one hand, you have this very deep informational problem, which is that, like voters are not really incentivized to make decisions based on the facts and yet somehow that gets filtered through the system and what outputs like works, and this is kind of like mysterious in a way.

Taf 34:10

I think it's, you know it's it's for the exact reason which you know, more populist people hate our system, which is, when you look at policies, um, that are implemented, it seems like politicians are about six times as responsive to wealthy people and wealthy people's interests than people who are not wealthy and are not donating a ton to their campaigns, and it seems like that tracks pretty closely with campaign donations. So it seems like people are mostly just like responsive to money as politicians are, and also people with money tend to have a better understanding of what is going on with the economy. They have a lot more stake in these things so like it really matters if you run a business elon musk does that relies on engineers, if you are able to get those engineers. And so elon musk is willing to put in a lot of effort and a lot of money to get Trump's ear and to tell him like, hey, this is what's happening with immigration and this is why it's good to have more immigration from these engineers, right?

Taf 35:18

And so the result is that like okay, well, maybe then we get immigration policy which is balanced between the interests of people who don't really understand what's going on with immigration or have like some idea that's flawed, and then people who elon are like elon musk, who really just understand one part of it, which is the economic part, and the result is kind of like decent. Um, so you know, I think that practically our democracy works, but it works kind of through smoke and mirrors and through these channels and people like Breonna or Elon Musk, and they're willing to play the game of politics and they play it well.

Sky 36:02

I see, yeah, I, I almost take issue with the framing of, like our country as being a democracy. I just just like who's going to do the least damage to our country in the at the end of the day? But I'm left wondering, like, okay, so now I'm going to go cast my vote, and so are millions of other Americans, and at the end of the day there's a chance that the candidate that gets the most votes doesn't even become, doesn't even get elected, because there's a layer of, you know, republican representation happening as well, with the um, um, the uh, oh, my god, the electoral college, and so like that whole layer even obfuscates the popular vote to an extent. So it's like how much can we actually say our country is really a democracy from this point of view, and so so I don't know. There's a whole lot of that going on.

Lisa 37:08

Hey, welcome, I'm so sorry, my child just like threw up and then my husband came and took them out of the house and I'm like I'm never normally late, but it's the crazy home from school.

Brianna 37:20

You saved our bacon today. Don't worry about it.

Lisa 37:24

I'm so happy to be here.

Brianna 37:25

Thank you for having me. Do you want to introduce her Skye?

Sky 37:29

Oh yeah, totally yeah, it's a light intro.

Lisa 37:33

So I'm Lisa. I have worked on the Hill for about 12 years. I currently book as a book producer Tim Poole for his culture work show and sometimes for IRL and I've been in politics for seemingly forever. I hate it now. I'd rather just be happy and stay at home, mom life or whatever. But here we are. So that's me. I mean there's not really much going on here. Let me just fix myself. I look so retarded right now.

Lisa 38:01

Okay, you look great, you look fine, you look great, so anyway. So, but thank you for having me, I appreciate it.

Brianna 38:08

Are you kidding me? You are one. I think it's so interesting that they're ostensibly progressives, that I agree with a lot on policy. But I feel like we've been friends just because we don't have to agree on stuff and you've always been very kind to me. Really, everybody over at Tim's show has just always been really wonderful to me. Really everybody over at Tim's show has just always been really wonderful to me. So I don't know, we were looking for a guest today. We had someone cancel and I called you and you said yes. So thank you for coming on.

Lisa 38:38

No, I appreciate it, we get along, I think, because it's not in anybody's best interest to be arguing or fighting or hating everybody. I mean there's definitely. I mean I, I do make outrageous tweets and I'm like, oh my god, I hate liberals, but like I hate the intolerant psycho ones, like my neighbors that live right next door to me, like I hate that, that won't that refuse to say hi to me, no matter how many times I say hi, like I hate those people. I do. I don't really like fat people, but other than that, we're good.

Brianna 39:05

I don't think I'm an intolerant liberal.

Lisa 39:09

I hope I'm not. I don't think you're right.

Brianna 39:10

No, no, so I remember when we were first. You're booking me on Timcast. I want to just get right into this for the first time. Uh, you know you were telling me that you were not super on board with trans rights, so I kind of just want to get into that on the show Like what are you thinking? What are you thinking with that?

Lisa 39:34

Yeah, Because you know that I have a lot of respect for you, right, and I'm clearly going to be nice to like everyone. I want to make this clear from the outset Like this isn't meant to hurt anybody's feelings, right, Like I do think that everybody deserves to be happy and all those type of things, but I come from a different worldview and I have, you know, different opinions on it. But it doesn't mean, like I want anybody to be hurt or anything like that.

Brianna 40:01

So I just want to we're not going to get defensive, this is a discussion. No, I know, I know, I know.

Lisa 40:06

But for those people that are listening to, it's like I will say outrageous things that you clearly are not going to like, and I just want to make sure that you know that, like it's not my intention to hurt anybody's feelings, okay, so, yes, I don't. So when you say trans rights, what do you mean? Because there has been, like there has been like a blanket movement to kind of normalize. What I say is like almost everything Right, like, and so I don't know if you mean trans rights into, like puberty blockers or kids, or if you mean adults having the ability to, you know, like to transition physically, to be accepted. Tell me what you mean and then I'll tell you what I disagree with.

Brianna 40:48

Why don't we start and figure out where we agree? So Skye and I back when I was like mid 20s and her when she was mid 20s. We went to a doctor. We had gender dysphoria, we got treatment for it, we transitioned and we have a life, we have jobs, we pay taxes. It has made both of our lives drastically better. So do you have any issues with that?

Lisa 41:13

No, I mean yes, no and yes, okay. So I think that when I used to work for a bar right Vango is a bar back in Philly back in the day and we would always have trans women come into our bathroom, they were fun. We did our makeup in the mirror, right, like nobody cared back then, right. And so I think that, like you, just living your life, that doesn't bother me, right Like, and looking at all of you, I wouldn't be able to tell any of you are a man, right, like you know well it, well, whatever you want to say.

Lisa 41:49

It's fine, it's fine, you all look like women, attractive women. My issue is that it kind of feels like it's forced onto, like into schools, forced acceptance, right, and then that the really, really weird. There's weird people that are exploiting it or taking advantage of the situation, like that jeffrey marsh guy, like a total lunatic, and so so now it's like at first I remember writing a paper, um, back in college, like you know, government, the government should stay out of gay marriage completely, right, like it's a slippery slope, like what are they going to? Are we going to be okay with other things, whatever? So I was like that. And now I'm like no gay marriage, right. I wrote a paper defending like civil unions they shouldn't be in the marriage business in general, like the government. But now I think that's wrong. Right Now I've gone completely to an extreme side, and it's not because my side radicalized me, it's because this trans agenda radicalized me to where I'm like okay, you know what, we have to shut this down because it's insane. So let's go through this one at a time.

Impact of Societal Influence on Children

Brianna 42:58

So I'm going to ask a question to everyone on the show Raise your hand if you think the way we're messaging LGBT issues towards children is reckless and dangerous. Like who agrees with that statement? Right, totally, we all agree with you. I think a lot of the reason we started this show is we saw all these things going off course. Um, you know, sky and I were on buck angel show the day talking about how we think a lot of this, like these books they're giving children like choose your own gender. No one needed to tell me I wanted to be a girl when I was like a child. Right, there's no point in like trying to inculcate these children about this. So I think all of us really share that fear and we're trying to build something to push back on that.

Lisa 43:48

I think, yeah, I think there's something a little bit bigger going on too. Like, even with just the plain LGBT stuff, right? Um, I can't go into like target and pride month or whatever in June, right, without saying like, I forget what it was like. It was like be queer, right Like up on the thing, or be gay and whatever. And my eight-year-old or seven-year-old, five-year-old, they can read and they're like mom, what's that? Well, I'm not ready to have a conversation with them about sex. They go to right where and and so, okay, like I'm all for. Like, if you want, I'm not all for. But if you guys wanted to like accept the lgbtq community, like really wanted to be, really just like normalized, then that wouldn't be a thing, right, and they're like oh, but we need awareness, we need representation, we need to be seen.

Lisa 44:36

That's asking to be celebrated rather than just like accepted as part of the norm and so and so like. Then it becomes like. Right now I have, like I had a betsy ross flag on my house and my wife I had to do with trump or whatever and my gay neighbors that live next to me, who I offer my paint to say hello to every morning, got mad about it. We had a wi-fi war and then they put a trans flag up. But we're across from a elementary school, right, and the playground's there. Now every kid is looking at that you know lgbt trans flag and asking what's that? It's a rainbow flag. Look at that house, right, and that's a Catholic school, all right.

Lisa 45:14

So when do your, when does like, like being normalized, instead of being normalized, being celebrated, come and start infringing on parents and kids and things like that? That's kind of where I think most of the people's frustrations are like we'd be fine, like I went to gay weddings. I have a ton of friends that are gay, right, I had you know, I consider myself friends with trans people. I'm not a transphobe by any stretch of the imagination. But no, like I kind of want this stuff absolutely not normalized, because I do think, especially for girls transitioning, there's like a social contagion aspect to it, not as much for men. There's like the small percentage that actually have dysphoria, but then there's also people that like have it as some sexual fetish. That's weird, I think that. I think that, like you know, we need to be really careful about how we move forward and everybody's just like pushing, like you need to need to be tolerant. Well, now, it makes me want to not be tolerant at all I think that's fascinating.

Taf 46:12

Yeah, okay, I have questions about that, right, because I guess one of the things that I love about america is our belief in freedom of speech, and I believe that people are really very resilient. I don't think that if someone sees a trans flag or a gay flag, they're going to be necessarily propagandized into becoming trans or gay, and I think it's probably healthy that kids even kids are able to just exist in the world and see a trans flag and ask questions about that, and kids are really quite resilient. They don't necessarily get turned into trannies or transactors because they see a trans flag. Yeah, you think that people do get turned.

Lisa 47:02

Well, I will say this. I will say this my kids are in a Christian classical school, right, and this doesn't even have to do with Christian beliefs. Okay, just in general. In this school, they are in third grade and they don't know what curse words are.

Taf 47:16

Okay, they don't even they have never heard a curse word they don't know what they are.

Lisa 47:19

My daughter comes from a camp and she said, oh my God, they were saying the F word. And the girl's like what's the curse word, a hurtful word, right? Like they don't know what that is. They're not talking about sex. They have no idea what it is. They're really talking about tying their shoes. Now my daughter plays basketball, my son plays football, we all play in these intramural leagues, right. And we go to these schools and there's trans, everything, okay, there's trans stickers up. There's trans things. Come here, it's a safe room. I see it all over. I actually take pictures of them because it's so insane how many there are in all these other little public schools we go to. And so my daughter goes. You know, she's at horseback riding camp and they were talking about like, oh, I think this boy's cute because now she's in fifth grade.

Taf 48:31

No-transcript making this claim, but I don't see. Oh, it didn't happen when I was young yeah when I was young.

Lisa 48:43

It didn't happen when my parents were young? Certainly didn. Certainly didn't happen when you were young. And so now, all of a sudden, we've got 17 girls out of a horseback riding class of 30 talking about how they don't know what gender that they are and they can decide when they want to.

Taf 48:55

I agree that there's a correlation here, but I don't think it's because someone held a trans flag in front of their house. In fact, I think it's a very good thing that people should be able to hold trans flags.

Lisa 49:06

It's that it's in Target. It's that it's on TV. It's that it's in their school, everywhere they look. It's that it's ubiquitous. It's literally everywhere. I don't think so.

Taf 49:13

No, I think that humans are incredibly resilient, and the wonderful thing about us as a species is our ability to be exposed to these things and to not, you know, be brainwashed into something You're talking about curse words for example like the problem with the left wing and how they talk about like trigger words and how they try to clamp down on freedom of speech and silence people.

Taf 49:37

They are creating a culture of fear around dealing with difficult ideas and dealing with potentially like racist ideas, sexist ideas, homophobic ideas. Those ideas need to be discussed and debated and people are not going to turn into sexist or Nazis just because they hear an idea that is maybe a little bit off color. And the same thing is happening with trans fats, Like people just are okay with being exposed to these things and we can't can't create a culture of fear in either direction.

Lisa 50:09

I agree that people need to have these conversations, but it needs to be adults. But let me just explain how you're wrong there and why you're wrong. They've been doing studies in Brazil for a long time. They wanted to decrease the birth rate in Brazil. This was 2012, 15, something like that 2009. I'll send you the studies. You can link it. They wanted to decrease the fertility rate and so what did they do? This experiment, people teamed up with um the government and they put in their soap operas because soap operas were big there. They put in their soap operas like a single mom and made her life look nice, right, and they put in um divorce and they put in abortion and they decreased the birth rate by running these through. Just one soap opera 4%. Okay, so this is happening all the time.

Lisa 50:56

As somebody who studies behavioral economics, we're being nudged everywhere every which way we go. Any type of you know stuff like that, especially when children's minds are malleable. People always say children are really resilient, but that's not really true. If you look at the studies, like the most impactful years of their life are from you know three to five, and then you know five to 12. So how they're going to be in their constitution as a person, so how they're going to be in their constitution as a person. And so if you look at those things and you look at how we are easily, easily nudged, manipulated, how we can, how a whole birth rate of a nation can change by putting those type of you know constant things into their media supply, you can clearly see that we are being influenced by our society. Like it is a nature nurture tug. Here it is happening. The kids are being influenced by it, and the more that it's ubiquitous, the more that it's acceptable, the more that it looks like a fad or cool.

Taf 51:52

Everybody wants, especially girls want to be, um, you know, accepted by their peers, and so that's what they do so, yeah, I don't want to like run away from the reasonable claim here, which is that there is some social contagion going on and that people are obviously affected by their environment.

Taf 52:09

I think that what is just important is that we mediate these claims through some sort of like reasonable filter. So schools are a good example. Right, because schools are publicly funded, you should have like a say in what is being hung up there and the values that are being shown to the children. And it's important that children are not shown, like you know, maoist propaganda or whatever, because children really can be influenced. And, yeah, and they shouldn't be shown like trans propaganda or whatever. You know, really, schools should be pretty neutral in the kind of facts that they present to people. I think we can like totally be on board with that. I think it's important not to run away with that, though. I mean, even when you're talking about, like brazilian soap operas, decreasing the fertility rate, you said, of an entire nation, this seems wildly implausible and I'm not exactly sure, even if you would test that.

Lisa 53:04

I can show you.

Taf 53:07

The studies proved that you reduced the nation of Brazil's fertility rate With the soap opera.

Lisa 53:15

They've been doing it for years. I studied behavioral economics. What?

Raising Kids in a Digital Age

Taf 53:19

do they compare that to? I would understand if you said the soap opera was shown in certain towns. They've been doing it for years. I studied behavioral economics. What do they compare that to? Right, Because I would understand if you said that the soap opera was shown in certain towns or villages and towns that saw lower rates of fertility.

Lisa 53:28

I'll just put it in the chat. You can look at it and make your assessment from there. We don't have to get into the nuance of it, right now. Can I jump in and offer? Sorry, brianna, I talk a lot.

Brianna 53:40

No, no, no, You're great, You're great. I think I'm actually a little bit more on your side, Lisa, and let me tell you why. Because I think, like when I was a teenager in like the nineties, you know, we had a thing that we said. It said no one would choose to be trans, and I think that was really true back then. I don't think that's true today, Because I think if you're choosing to be trans, meaning you go, oh, I'm non-binary or I don't know what I am, or I'm agender or asexual or all of that I think you're entering this social club and I think we've got to put that in context of what is happening to teen girls nowadays.

Brianna 54:21

You know, I don't know if you've looked at some of these studies about what it's like for teenage girls today with Instagram, but the mental health is literally the worst of any generation we've ever recorded. Instagram is just breaking these girls' brains about how they feel about their bodies. So it's really easy for me to like I wasn't lucky enough to have that socialization, but it's easy for me to imagine, on the days where I don't feel I feel gross or I don't feel put together or I don't want to do my makeup, just going like oh, just screw, all of this, I must be something else. So I think, because there's no clinical basis for non-binary, I think that there are a lot of social messages out there that are encouraging these girls to consider this and I am unsure. In fact, I think there's a lot of damage possible by introducing these doubts about your gender to young children.

Brianna 55:13

I think that's very clear developmentally. So I think we can differ, Like to me someone putting the trans flag up on their private property. That seems like a free speech issue. Yeah, it is. But if you're talking about schools, I think it's really reasonable for us to, like when I was growing up, we had PSAs on, like my little pony, like trying to teach kids good things, Like I think it's a good thing to think about the messages kids are getting and if we're setting them up for success yeah, I just want to just make something clear about the translate.

Lisa 55:46

It's not like that. If you, one solitary person, puts up a translate, it's going to be an issue for me, right, that's not. I do have a problem when you're like, not considerate of a school across the street from you, right, like I would. I probably wouldn't care as much if there was, we were a house down the block, right, like it is just free speech. I'm not telling them to take it down, but it literally the kids at noon every day play out there and stare at that flag, right, okay, so that's one thing, but it compounds because you can drive around philly and see trans flags everywhere, right, and then not only do you see it everywhere, then you see, like you know, you go to a Walmart or whatever target, and it's, it's all there. And then you go into the next store and CVS and it's all there, and you go everywhere and it's every. It's a problem. Now I also have a problem, though, with sex shops and things like that. Like, I took my kids to this great, great restaurant that I like on South Street, and across from it it says the candy store, and it's like a stripper and like a sexual deviant type of freaking store and and what and what happens is my kids are like I'm going to go in there. What's that mom? What's that outfit? How come she's like that Right? And I'm like all right, guys like can we just, can we just have some civility again?

Lisa 56:56

I remember like people, would you know, back in the day, they would have those like adult bookstores or like movie theaters here and there, right and like, but they were discreet. Or even if they had that, there was one store and I was like a secret garden or whatever, but you couldn't see anything from outside. It was like discreet People knew what they were getting. I'm not saying don't open a business, I'm not saying don't have them. I'm saying like can we just have some like you know, anti-degenerate stuff going on? Like I just mean like my kids don't need to be looking at anal beads, they just don't. You know what I mean.

Brianna 57:28

Like it's not, it's not okay would you agree with me, though, that the major vector for kids like I? I fully agree with you. I think most of us on this show are integrationist trans women, and what I mean by that is we transition to blend in, to go on with our lives. Before I went on TimCast, lisa, I talked to you about how I explicitly didn't want to talk about trans stuff, because I just didn't want that.

Lisa 57:52

I didn't even know you were trans until months after I know you it wasn't a thing to me. It didn't bother me, whatever.

Brianna 57:59

What I'm saying is like I transitioned to go on with my life and to not make it the focus, and I think all of us have a different it's not your personality.

Brianna 58:08

It's not my personality. It's something I wish I didn't have to talk about, except that the fringe has pushed it in a place where we need some normal trans women to speak up trans women to speak up. That said, in my opinion, like I'm not a parent, so I could be wrong on this, but wouldn't you agree that, like Instagram, TikTok, social media like these are the vector getting stuff into your children? So it seems to me that is the relevant policy arena.

Lisa 58:36

It's certainly. You are absolutely right and that is an issue. I think a lot of the responsibility should fall on the parent. Now I'm in a type of school where there's a no device policy in school or at home. You're not allowed to have them at home until eighth grade. Like these kids are not allowed to be on devices, okay, and because of that, we don't have TikTok dances. We don't have kids talking about like my kid's, not a Sephora girl, you know what I mean. Like, um, we don't have like these trends just were not being affected by them.

Lisa 59:04

They're kids, living kids and they're, you know, building things out of sticks and using their hands. Now, when my kids play with these other kids, they're like, do you want to do a TikTok dance? My daughter's, like my mom will kill me, right, so, but the problem is is that I know. But the problem is that I know other parents who have the same beliefs I do. I know how they are with their children at home, but once their children get into that school environment, right now, they're around other kids who their parents are trying to keep up with the Joneses. They all have iPhones, they all have free access to the Internet On top of the school, reinforcing the messages that they're getting from the Internet, saying, hey, this is okay, this is okay. And then you go into target and this is okay, and this is okay, and then it looks like it's the cool thing. Look at Dylan Mulvaney. Hey, if you want to be super famous, say what's it like to live like a girl for day one, two, three, 800. And and look how fast you skyrocket. And it did happen, right.

Lisa 59:58

So to say that that it's that it's not happening to kids is just you know, or that like they're malleable, it's just not true the decisions that they make when they're that young, I mean, I've still made decisions when I was 12, 13, 14 that haunt my life still to this day. To say that like we're malleable or we're, you know, resilient is kind of like, I don't know, giving kids a little too much credit. I mean, your frontal cortex isn't what completely developed in your twenties. It can be fair here. So, anyway, I just think that it's it's just not, it's just not valid. It needs to stop. And so if you want to know why people are so turned off by this, when the gay community was making so much inroads wrote is this, it's, it's too much, it's too much yeah, well, I think ultimately it comes back to like where power should be, like.

Taf 1:00:47

I think it's really important that we put power in the hands of parents like you to make sure that you are controlling what your children see. And I'm glad we talked about tiktok as well, like brianna is mentioning, that, when children are exposed to these worlds where they can totally immerse themselves and get like all of their information from a social media source which is, you know, maybe has a hostile power, you know meddling in it, making sure that kids are seeing things that are not so good. That's really bad and so children are not able to make responsible decisions necessarily about what information they see. So it's really important that we protect them, and I think that starts with the parents.

Taf 1:01:27

Because, you know, the trans discussion is so horribly toxic and like it'd be one thing if, when we put up the trans flag, it represented something like oh, when you're an adult, you have agency over your body and you can do what you want with it. That's one thing, right, but a lot of times when we're putting up the trans flag, we're saying that like if you have any kind of gender deviancy as a child, you need to start on a medical pathway of hormones to eventually transition. That's probably much worse than the trans flag represents that, and so you know, in a sane world, putting up a trans flag in your front property is like much less harmful right. So, again, like just as a series of olive ranches, really, I mean. I think that solving this informational problem is really difficult in terms of what we are presenting to children, but I think it begins with making sure that responsible people, people who have the child's best interest in mind, aka the parents, have the most control over what their children are seeing.

Brianna 1:02:30

Well, lisa, this is what I would say is beyond the trans issue that I think we would both agree is overly marketed to children. I think that's a very nice way to put that it's not just trans people, like trans issues, that are the vector for these destructive messages. I mean, I think we're about the same age and I remember what being a teenager was like back then. Like and it has changed so much today. Like you read these stats about what life is like for teenagers today, it seems so grim. Like staring at your phone all day. Like there was a study that showed like the average teenage girl spends an average of nine hours a day on her phone, which is insane to me. Like I spend that much but it's my job.

Parental Control and Gender Ideologies

Brianna 1:03:17

like Like I'm texting people and calling Right, it's different when you're at work, yeah, but so I mean what seems like I am someone who is focused on public policy and what it seems like to me is that, for the good of TikTok and Facebook and Twitter and all these services, it seems to me that they've developed something that's highly, highly addictive for your children and have given parents no effort whatsoever, no tools to regulate that or control it or get the age appropriateness.

Lisa 1:03:51

Well, I mean, there's plenty of ways of parents to control it. They're being lazy. Okay, like, let's be fair.

Brianna 1:03:58

Help walk through this. If your child wants to be on TikTok, how can you say you say no For you to have like transgender content?

Lisa 1:04:07

Yeah, right, you say no and you take their phone. Now my kids, right Like. They run around the neighborhood and I want to be able to contact them Right. So I bought a watch called a TikTok watch right, no access to the internet. Tiktok watch right, no access to the internet, no access to text messages, all. And they can have their friends call them, but only if I approve the contact and have it in the watch. My daughter it was nine o'clock last night and I said stop talking to your friend. She did not and I took my little phone out and I turned her phone off. Right Like I turned it off.

Lisa 1:04:39

But these parents don't want to have the fight with their kid, they don't want to sit there and argue with them, because it's exhausting to argue with your children. They don't want to put the work in and also they don't have the support from schools or whatever. Like there has to be buy-in, right, if you know, if everybody's parents are doing the one thing and then you're the kid, like in my kid's school, it's cool to be the smart kid. My daughter comes home and wants to do her homework, because it's the cool thing in school to do the homework right. It's peer pressure. It's just the wrong peer pressure. So I would have a lot more fights with my children, I'm sure, if they were in a public school, I'm sure that it would be way harder for me to deal with that. I get some of it in the summer when they're doing football and camp.

Brianna 1:05:24

I'm talking as an aggregate, as an aggregate public policy. It seems to me that giving parents more control over what their children are seeing in these algorithms to make sure it's age appropriate, it seems to me any efforts to regulate it. They should just ban them.

Lisa 1:05:40

No, they should ban children from having phones because there is not one positive study that says it does anything positive for them at all. If anything, the statistics all point to that it's extremely negative. You as a parent should get fined if you, if they see your kids scrolling around or having a TikTok or being on the internet, that's like literally I think I'm turning full on authoritarian because because, like it's getting to the point where there's there's nothing good comes out of it. They're not learning anything. They're not, they're not doing anything productive there. If anything, it's only a means to get them in trouble and depressed, and God forbid. Some kids make it out. I don't know how, but yeah, it's all, it's all bad. There's nothing positive from your kids being on the internet under 16. Nothing.

Taf 1:06:33

It would certainly improve my experience of X if I never had to see a 14 year old's opinion on that website. It's not sounding so terrible to me.

Lisa 1:06:38

Yeah, it's really not. It's just inappropriate for them to be there. And it's not sounding so terrible to me. Yeah, it's really not. It's just inappropriate for them to be there and it's inappropriate for them. My daughter hears my political conversations, right, and she'll say she'll come to me and she'll say something. I'm like this is not for you to discuss, right, like this is, this is an adult topic. You should not be discussing this. You shouldn't even know about this. She asked me. She was talking to me about abortion the other day and i'm'm like Olivia, I'm like we're not doing this. You're not talking about abortion. You shouldn't even know. She's 10.

Lisa 1:07:05

Okay, maybe if you're 15, but your brain can't even comprehend at that age, like really, what it means to cut a baby out of a uterus. I mean like they don't even understand death themselves because they run across the street still without looking both ways. Like they don't even understand death themselves because they run across the street still without looking both ways. So death isn't permanent to them in the way that it is to an older person. So like they don't even they couldn't even get it to begin with. So I don't understand. Parents should be way more involved. You know it should happen.

Brianna 1:07:37

Women should stop working and they should be at home taking care of their children.

Lisa 1:07:40

If we really want to know what's going on, but like that could be hard for us. I just want to say, yeah, here's a question for you. So I see a lot on the the left. They're like oh, you guys are transphobes, right? Um, or that you hate trans people, or that you wish we didn't exist, right? Or like you don't want us to exist. I hear, I hear this language all the time. I think there's a eliminationist project.

Brianna 1:07:59

Yeah, yeah.

Lisa 1:08:00

So I don't think that okay here, did you, did anybody before? Like? I mean, brianna, you're older, you're up to 43, right? So before the last five, 10 years, did you ever have a problem going into a women's bathroom? Ever? And it was always legal for men to be in women's bathrooms. That's always been illegal. Okay, it was always legal for men to be in women's bathrooms.

Brianna 1:08:21

That's always been illegal. Okay, depending on the state, but it was less of a flashpoint, I think I would say but nobody was ever concerned about that.

Lisa 1:08:28

It was not a concern. If anything, I feel like all this, you know, highlighting and begging for acceptance and stuff or whatever, or tolerance, or what you guys are doing, which is to me, I see it, more celebration. It's only actually hurting you more. Now we're talking about bathroom bans, but it was never an issue, at least for passing people. You're preaching to the choir, lisa, yeah, but you see how conservative my views are right. Do you guys feel like I don't want you to exist?

Brianna 1:08:56

No, I don't think that's your political project. I think that there is a political project out there to push us out of public life the ideology yes.

Brianna 1:09:06

Well, we started this show because we see these excesses and we want to push back on this right. We're integrationist. The other part of it. I think calling it gender ideology is fair. This idea to abolish all gender, to say you can be anything or nothing, and biology should have no place in jurisprudence. I don't think anyone on the show agrees with that. Because with Nancy Mace let's take her as an example. If you think, I like Alexandra, who is this person that said the Supreme Court should never have a moment of peace again like she was entirely correct to call this fringe communist, nutjob, trans woman up in front of Congress and call her out for threatening violence. She does not speak for me in any way and I deplore that woman. I cannot stand her. But you know, then it goes from there to Nancy Mace going like trans women should not be able to use the bathroom.

Brianna 1:10:06

It's like I have to be able to use the bathroom as I go through life Like I've got a vagina.

Bathroom Ban Debate and Community Participation"

Lisa 1:10:12

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not totally like, I'm not the biggest fan at all, Okay, but I will say that that whole conversation to me was stupid. Anyway, I worked on the hill for 12 years. Members have a bathroom, a private bathroom in their own office, okay, and women didn't get their own bathroom near the the house chambers, like the floor right, like the women congressional, so like I don't know 2012, right, it's not hard to go to the bathroom in your own place she's advocating a national ban, but the reason for that the reason for that is because you have that other trans activist people saying I'm going to go to the bathroom wherever I want and I'm going to make sure I'm going to the bathroom here.

Lisa 1:10:54

It wouldn't be an issue if she didn't, if the other person didn't make it the issue first and now Nancy issue if she didn't, if the other person didn't make it the issue first and now nancy mace is on the tirey, I know it's.

Lisa 1:11:03

It's honestly, it's reactionary and and, and, to be fair, I say pass the ban. Right, and the reason that I say pass the ban, brianna, is because nobody is going to come up to you, brianna, and be like, actually, you're a man, you gotta go, you're gonna be fine all, actually, all four of you, or three of you, will be fine. You, it's not gonna be an issue, right, you're not gonna have a problem. You know we'll have a problem, jeffrey marsh, and that's the kind of people we want to keep out of there.

Taf 1:11:32

Let's be fair, let's be honest, okay if I see like brianna in the bathroom, could I then, like, call the police on her? By the time you do?

Lisa 1:11:42

that she will be gone by the time you do that, she would be gone. Okay, now, if it's a man, they're gonna corner them. They're gonna be like what are you doing in here? You're a freaking weirdo, right? We're not gonna use the bathroom, be discreet, say excuse me and leave, and then they may question it. Maybe I don't know, I wouldn't they may question it. They. Maybe, I don't know, I wouldn't they may question it. They may think about it. Right, but all that processing time where, if you have Jeffrey Marsh walking in there, right, jeffrey Marsh walks in, calling immediately. Right, you're not doing that for Brianna. And now, not only that, every institution, right, you can go to Walmart or Target, like I keep saying. They have family bathrooms. You could totally go in that family bathroom. It doesn't matter where. You are right, there's not going to be no place for you to pee. It's just not going to happen.

Brianna 1:12:24

So let's protect the majority of the population from these scumbags. I just would you would what I prefer not to break the law as I go about my day.

Lisa 1:12:35

You know I have a funny story. I know you don't want to bring the laws, you go about your day, but here's a funny story. I, um, I was in a bar I was at a gay bar actually, right and the line was forever in the girl's section. So where did I go? In the boy bathroom, right. And then I come out and they were like, oh, she's a real one, and they're like touching my throat, like, oh, my god, this is so weird. I've been, I have been accused of being a tranny once or twice actually, except five foot 11. And I wear high heels and so I'm like standing six, two, and when you're in those areas, whatever. So, but yeah, look, I've used men's bathrooms when the women aren't there.

Taf 1:13:11

Were the men happy.

Lisa 1:13:12

I'm like guys, sorry, you know, right, like it's not the biggest deal.

Lisa 1:13:16

It's not the biggest deal, however. The Jeffrey Marsh issue and these guys that you're seeing, like going into these, like neutral changing rooms and, you know, slipping their phone under a 12 year old girls I just saw that the other day Like right, like these are, these are problems and I'm sorry, but like no offense. You guys are the very, very real trans people are the very, very, very minority here and we have to protect the greater good of this society and children, and, above all, like if it was just adults, fine, but children. Children are the most vulnerable and so we need to do their needs come first. That's how I look at it.

Taf 1:13:55

Yeah, at the end of the day, I don't think it's the worst thing ever if I'm forced to use a men's restroom but you wouldn't be like you're saying well, maybe, but also like what you're saying, like sometimes I have gone into the men's restroom, especially because sometimes it's just a single stall right and it's just like there's a mail on the door but it's like it doesn't matter whatsoever, and that's the case for, like most gas stations and stuff right. I will like I don't know. I think the feasibility of enforcing such a ban gets kind of like weird, right, and we're talking about like Brianna, for example. You know, maybe she goes into the bathroom and someone who knows who she is snaps a photo of her, like leaving the women's restroom. I think under a bathroom ban law she could very easily be charged under that they can't do that.

Lisa 1:14:39

It's illegal to take pictures of any human, any person in most states in a bathroom.

Taf 1:14:44

So that's I mean like leaving the bathroom, yeah, or like, maybe like entering it so like you know before, she's actually in there.

Lisa 1:14:50

Yeah, they can't prove that. You're even doing that then at that point. But you know, I mean, I think we're really grasping at straws here to say that this is, this is really like such a huge issue I think it's ridiculous, honestly.

Taf 1:15:03

So this is this is how this is. You think the enforcement gets a little tricky yeah.

Brianna 1:15:08

so I want to talk about like a higher, like level thing and see if I can get you on my level with this, lisa. So something I've thought about a lot is what normal looks like for trans people and for gay people, because what I've seen and again we're about the same age, lisa is I've seen a lot of the gay men that I knew in my generation that never got married and they're still going to the clubs and you know like there's not the same path for stability and participation in America for live gay men that exists for a lot of heterosexual people.

Lisa 1:15:48

What do you mean by participation in America?

Brianna 1:15:50

What I mean is I think I'm a relatively normal person, right, I have a house, I've been married monogamously for 16 years, I pay my taxes, I participate in every single election. I go to married monogamously for 16 years. I pay my taxes, I participate in every single election. I go to my local games in my town. I am here, I'm a full participant, I give back to society, I create jobs. Right. That's a much better outcome than, say, the Brianna Wu that didn't get treatment for gender dysphoria and was doing every single drug in sight and was having like extreme psychological issues, to the point I could not have a job. Right, these are two different like. One is a benefit for America, the other is a detriment to America and takes tax dollars, quite frankly.

Brianna 1:16:35

So I think, like, what I've thought a lot about is, I think if we don't give trans people a pathway to be normal, like integrated members of society with jobs, I think this is one of the reasons I've swung so hard against the progressive movement, because it's telling these kids like, oh, you don't, you can pick any gender you want. You know capitalism is evil. You know serving evil, you know serving being a police officer participating in your community that's just like serving imperialism, like there's no structure. You're advocating for people to go have normal lives. So I think if, like you're making trans people be more outlaws, I just don't see how you get to this ideal I think all of us would where someone can have gender dysphoria, can go to a doctor, can get treatment for it and then can get married, can have a job, can be normal.

Lisa 1:17:29

Here's the deal. But you did all that. You're in a living example of having done all that. It may very well have been difficult before any of this, right? Yeah, so you, you were able to live your life. I think probably now more people wonder if you are trans or not than they probably did five, ten years ago, if I would have to guess. Right. So your life is intrinsically harder at this point, when, when these, these conversations and these policies weren't even up for debate, these were not in the national media, right, there were no gay marriage laws on the books, right, um, but that was a little longer than that, but not not not that much longer I thought your phone wasn't that long ago.

Lisa 1:18:13

Yeah, but my point is is that actually we don't. If we want to see it and I'm sorry if I offend anybody here as a mental health crisis, which a mental health issue, which is what I what I think it is right, um, that people should have treatment for their mental health issues, um, and I think that that that's all. I think that it should be, um, and if you want to, like you know, get married and live your life and do all those things, I don't, you did it, you already did it. So, like I don't see why there's such this push and like, oh, we're going to take away our trans rights and stuff, like no, can we just like leave it the way it was 10 years ago? Like I mean, I don't know what else you want to do, because I feel like you're actually worse off with more advocating than you would have been prior to that.

Taf 1:19:06

Well, you're absolutely right.

Brianna 1:19:08

I mean, yeah, I said something and the crazies took over. It's Jeffrey Marsh and Dylan.

Lisa 1:19:14

Mulvaney and all of that it's got to be like now. Now, we don't know, I actually. So I come from a Christian point of view, like a background, right, but I try to look at what do I think is like pursuing truth, goodness, what's good for society? I think that if you're like a slave to your desires and you can actually never be free anyway, right. So like, just like people who smoke cigarettes, like I'm a slave to that cigarette, like I'm not free to smoke them, I have to go out every half an hour, right. Or if I'm addicted to a substance or I have to have that alcohol drink or whatever, right, I'm a slave to that thing. And I think that people are so caught up in you know, like their identity and themselves and what their rights are, that they're not free because they're so focused on that.

Lisa 1:20:03

If you look at anything, everything is rules-based and I heard this analogy the other day and I thought it was like brilliant, right, there are rules that have worked throughout time, throughout society, and they're somewhat pretty rigid, right, like there's man, woman, child, family, nation, whatever, okay, so all those things the way it is. If you were to say you really want to anything you really cared about, you loved, you wanted to do, like, play golf, right? Golf is an example. You say you love golf, you want to really play golf, you're going to learn everything you know about golf. But you're not just going to go up and hit the ball any way you want. You're going to get a pro to say, hey, what are the dimensions, how do I hold my shoulders, how do I hold the ball? You're not just going to go swing however you want, think you're going to be a great golfer. No, if you stick to the rules and the formulas and you abide by them strictly, then you're free to actually play the game of golf. Right? You're actually free to do the right thing.

Lisa 1:20:53

So if you have a right now we have like this hedonism kind of thing, like do whatever you want, live your truth, live whatever it's actually putting more constraints on you, even though you think you're free to do whatever you want. If you actually live within tighter binds of some structure and some society and some things that are true and good, then it is that at that point that you can be free to do good and and live a good and prosperous and healthy life. And see, that's what I feel like you did Brianna right. You did it within the constraints of what was around you and now you're fruitful from it. Now you see people that are transitioning. They're not sure what's happening. They're not sure if they even want to. They're talking about going back. It wasn't a hard process for them, right? It was so easy that they're making mistakes about it and they're switching back. I think that you're freer than any new Gen Z millennial well, you know millennials, but you know trans people are trans.

Lisa 1:21:53

I just don't think a lot of them are yeah, no, no. So that's what I'm saying. I think that people forget that rules exist for a reason and actually by living by the rules, that's how you obtain freedom and success and all the things that you really want in life.

Brianna 1:22:09

That's why we all believe in medical safeguarding right, Like going to a doctor making sure you actually have gender dysphoria, doctor making sure you actually have gender dysphoria. We think this, or at least I think this progressive political project. To say, like Lisa, you could go down to Planned Parenthood today and get on testosterone if you wanted to, I think that's insane.

Lisa 1:22:29

I actually worked for, um, lives of TikTok, right, and I used to well, okay, it's fine, I used to write articles for them. Um, I actually felt bad about kind of doing it sometimes. So I would call hospitals and I have some recordings of it and I would say, hey, I have a 13-year-old or a 10-year-old and they want to transition. They're like, okay, just go get this note. And they would tell me the doctor to go to and the doctor said, yeah, we can set you up, I'll give you a note, then you can go back.

Challenges of Gender Identity and Parenthood

Lisa 1:22:55

And they were ready to put my 10-year-old daughter, olivia she was nine at the time, I think, and I was using her age and her birth date, you know, with a fake name, and they were ready to put her on like, uh, puberty blockers and and and start doing like breast augmentation and stuff. Like you know, prevent, preventing that easy at like a really young age. I think I can't remember where I go or somewhere out there, but I mean I still have the recordings on my phone and I almost felt slimy because I felt bad to the people, like I don't know that. I felt bad for the people that were answering the phone, like I'm gonna get these, to get these people fired, you know, but they're doing really bad things and they really are I mean we all agree on that?

Brianna 1:23:35

I think we do at least.

Lisa 1:23:36

No, it's not like I don't want anybody to exist. I mean, I think it's a small part of the population.

Brianna 1:23:40

I don't think that's your mission. I do think it's some people's missions. But I'll let some other questions go.

Lisa 1:23:45

I'm sorry I talk so much. No, no, no, it's good.

Taf 1:23:49

I don't know if you've ever heard of GK Chesterton, but he's got this great metaphor Chesterton's fence where you're walking in the woods and you find this fence and you don't really understand what it is and so you tear it apart and then later you find out that actually that fence had a lot of meaning and a lot of value.

Taf 1:24:06

I think we've done that over and over with so many things in society and you see that, especially among progressives and liberals who are taking these traditional institutions and values and because the value is not obvious immediately, you know, you just throw it out are in some ways more lost than ever, like you are saying about freedom, where when you have in your mind a vision of the good and you deeply understand that and you pursue that, you end up with a life which is far more fulfilling in a pleasurable way than if you were to just pursue kind of sensual bodily pleasures, because that ultimately destroys the body and enslaves your mind to substances or just to bad habits.

Taf 1:24:56

And so I think you're hitting on something very deep, very true, about how people are pursuing life and how people are creating values, and I would love to see the progressive community and gay community try to connect a little bit more with things that have been tried and tested and proven to be very effective over time, rather than throw everything out. So, yeah, it is a deeply tragic situation, I think yeah, what were you going to say?

Sky 1:25:29

the other lady, yeah no, no, I was sorry. Yeah, no, it's okay, skylar, yeah, um, I know I've been really quiet, it's just taking it all in. Um, uh, yeah, I mean I. Well, first I'll say like I agree with everyone here on this podcast generally, when it comes to like just the, the problems that have happened with sort of the progressive fringe, I I kind of see it as like this trajectory that happened with over over jeffeld um, when gay marriage became legalized, it was like the progressive movement turned its attention strictly on trans rights, um, but really it was this um, I don't know like momentum for, you know, expanding the rights of what they think is a marginalized community, and historically I would say that's that was true. But now that we've had like sort of a really with Biden, I think this really came to the forefront.

Debating Trans Rights and Adoption

Sky 1:26:23

And it really woke me up when I saw Title IX coming through the agenda on that to put um, you know, I guess, gender identity um, which is like a whole nother way to really structure law around, something that is much more amorphous you just identify into, versus biological sex and what that would mean for for females, for natal women, and just like how that would just take away their opportunities when it came to the whole sports thing, and that like just kind of really like jolted me to the reality that there's a problem here, there's a natural tension between these rights for females, rights for trans people, and just kind of understanding that you know we need to rethink about how we're framing this and moving forward and um, like just I don't know it's hard for me to articulate it well, because there's a balance to it. I do think that needs to exist and um, but at the same time, like I think you know I am, I have a real sensitivity to the school issue when it comes to the struggles like you've shared, lisa, about being a mom and having to deal with this cultural almost like aggressiveness towards trans visibility and LGBT visibility and just how you're going to handle that with your children, and I think about that as a hopeful parent. I'm not a parent yet, but we're trying and I'm like how am I going to handle this issue when it comes to my kids? And I'm all on team free range kids, just like you've sort of been talking about with no phone, seeing the harmful effects, primarily through the work of Jonathan Hyatt and his Anxious Generation book that's just been making huge waves book that's just been making huge waves and so it's like it's hard to it's hard to balance.

Sky 1:28:20

Like I have a sensitivity for people that have transitioned, like all of us on the pod, and are assimilationist in the sense that we don't want to disrupt society, we just want to live our lives and just exist and and like in a way that you almost wouldn't know we exist, we're just there, we're just participating and doing what we love to do. But the people that are in my community are like no, we need our rights to go forward and it's like how do we? I guess that's sort of my question to you. I'm going to come full circle now to say, like my question is is where do you think? What do you think? Is the the right direction for the trans movement to go in terms of in terms of rights and advocacy, or is it really no direction?

Lisa 1:29:04

yeah, just stop, literally stop, and I promise you, literally stop, and I promise you, things will get exponentially better you should cancel double cast. Is that I?

Lisa 1:29:13

know like wait what does that mean like stop, like stop, just stop everything. Like stop pushing it. Like stop putting it all over the place. Right like stop if, if, policy-wise, if people want, if people want access and they go through a rigorous process and they want to get health care to whatever, fine, okay, but stop saying we're gonna, we need it's like the dei stuff too. Right like, oh, we need to have like a certain quota of trans people or a certain number of gay people. Right, like, they're just pissing everybody off, right, and it's not actually productive. Okay, because you're trying to fill these quotas rather than getting those qualified people.

Lisa 1:29:49

And and I know for a fact, rihanna's smart, very smart, so like it's. You know, it's not like and people aren't discriminating against, against any of this. Well, there are more now, but they kind of weren't. There was like a lull. It was like you know what I mean. You hit that point where people didn't really care anymore. People are like do whatever you want, love your life. People didn't really care anymore. People were like do whatever you want, love your life. And it can go back to that, if I think, if people just chill, like absolutely just stop. Now there is something that you said like since I feel like we're all agreeing and I feel like if you guys have a more trans or leftist audience, I'll be mad at you for agreeing with me as much as you are.

Taf 1:30:23

So, so, but now I will say something that I think like us very much, actually, lisa.

Lisa 1:30:26

So so, but now I will say something.

Brianna 1:30:27

I don't think they like us very much actually. Lisa, they'll be probably happier with what I'm going to say here.

Taf 1:30:32

The leftists are never happy.

Lisa 1:30:34

I. This is something that will probably bother you. This is probably something that will hurt you and Skylar. I hope you're you're not going to take it to heart in a hurt, like I'm not trying to be hurtful, okay, but like you were talking about you having kids or you're trying right why I am so against single people, whether they're straight or not, gay people or like what or gay people anybody that isn't a heterosexual couple. I'm against them.

Lisa 1:30:59

Adopting surrogacy, ivf, all of it, like a hundred percent, oh well I am against I got ivf in general, but when we're talking about adoption and adopting babies, right Like, no, I don't, and I'll tell you why. You can tell me that I'm wrong and I know a lot of people don't see it the way that I do, so I'm going to try to be gentle about the way that I say it. Okay, so I've clearly had two babies and I was blessed to be able to have them. That God, you know like, made my body able to do that. I get it. I get that it's in that it's a want and a desire for people, but it's not possible for all people. It's certainly not possible even for all women that were born with uterus, right, like there's plenty of women whose uterus don't work and things like that.

Debating Surrogacy and Adoption

Lisa 1:31:47

I think that a ivf is disgusting anyway because you're running well. The surrogacy is disgusting because you're running a human's womb. We don't have a market for kidneys, so all of a sudden now we have a market for uteruses and here we're just renting them. But but against that, we've got fertilized eggs 90,000 a year thrown away just because people don't. You know their couple were successful and they don't need them anymore. It's a disgusting thing of life, but not only that when you're pregnant, you share self with your baby. The baby knows you, the baby knows your voice, your sound, and even if a surrogate mother has that baby, that's all that baby knows. That is all that baby knows. And when the baby comes out even now, like with my brother and his wife just had a baby my baby's always reaching for mom. She's the smell, she's the sound, she's the milk, she's the comfort.

Lisa 1:32:36

And so if your first act as a parent and I'm talking even about biological single, like a biologically female, straight women too, like no, you're not allowed to adopt children, if you think that your first act is a selfish one as a parent, then you absolutely don't deserve to be a parent. And I think that every child needs a biological mother and a father statistically. And if things go wrong listen, if things happen and things go wrong, fine. But in society children are better off and deserve a mother, a father, because they provide different things and they certainly don't deserve to be ripped away and have that trauma first thing in their life from a surrogate mom or from whatever. And so I don't think it's appropriate if your first act as a human, as a parent, is to do something in a selfish way for your wants and put the kids want needs and what's right for them later. Does that make sense?

Lisa 1:33:28

And my friend's about the new surrogacy. She hates when I say this. When I say to her too, I'm like well, that's how I feel. I know that it's like even my right wing people are like Lisa, that's a bit much, you know what I mean.

Lisa 1:33:45

So I wanted to tell you that right Cause I just didn't. I didn't feel comfortable sitting here and be like, yeah, you have kids, Good for you. And like be dishonest and I'm sure, like if you do have children and that works out for you good, I hope God blesses you and them and your life works out beautifully. I would wish nothing but the best for you in that endeavor, but in my heart of hearts I don't think that's the right thing. Does that make sense? So now that you can have some hate on, All right.

Taf 1:34:09

I want to hear what Skye has to say. What do you think, Skye?

Sky 1:34:14

Oh well, I wasn't prepared for this backlash like this.

Taf 1:34:17

I mean, I'll be honest, I know I don't get this in my life.

Sky 1:34:22

No one will say this. So I kind of appreciate you, just like being so aggressive about this. But at the same time I'm like do being so aggressive about this? But at the same time I'm like, do you really think this? You really think this, but no, okay, you do so, okay, no, I'll say this. Look, I I kind of think of the the one. There's a whole problem with birth rates in general, and so at least I'm helping out that and I appreciate that.

Lisa 1:34:46

That's true. That's true. We do need. We need. You know what, if anything, you should probably have like seven, but like okay, but keep going also sky doesn't.

Brianna 1:34:54

Sky doesn't have to do surrogacy because she has a female partner.

Taf 1:34:58

So right, she's having sex in the eyes of god, so right, there you go.

Lisa 1:35:02

Well, that's fine, but you know what I'm saying. Like that she said the surrogacy part is the part that I really have like sure sure, but keep going, go ahead.

Sky 1:35:17

Yeah. So I mean to be fair, it is IVF which you were definitely also like, not not a fan of either, but um, no, I mean, I just think, like I think that what matters more is that there's just two parents and involved in the child's life. I mean, no parent is going to perfectly embody the I don't know like the masculine role and the feminine role, at least in my view it's. It's more about there being a support system and two parents that are there to care for their child in in all the way through life. Like the stability is really the key element in my view. Um, as well as that like personal stake, if they're well biological, I guess, um, but even even adopted, I would say no, like I'm. I am absolutely a fan of um, adoption and, and I don't know as much about surrogacy, to be perfectly honest.

Lisa 1:36:02

But but let me just clear something up. When I say adoption, too, I'm not talking about adoption coming from, like, foster homes, okay, because, just just so we're all clear, that's like a very rare. Most of the kids have foster care, can't even be adopted out, okay, and the ones that are usually older. But I'm talking about right now in this country, for every baby that is born, that a baby like infant, that a mother wants to give up, like right away, there's like 30, I'll go on the easier side, it used to be 36. It's around 32.

Lisa 1:36:30

Heterosexual families, right, a male and a female that want to have a kid, right, and so everybody's like, well, gay people should be. Prioritizing catholic charities is now not gonna. I think it was catholic something. One of those catholic adoption agencies was getting pushback from the government because they're like, religiouslyly, we facilitate these adoptions and things that we don't want to give them to gay couples, right, and the gay people are like no. And then there's other agencies that are doing the opposite, that are prioritizing gay couples only, right, and so there is a lot of trouble when it comes to these things, like for these newborn children in like, okay, well, if you have 35 like normal, no offense, normal like you know.

Lisa 1:37:17

Uh, not normal okay, you know what I'm saying, like in the distribution, you know okay um, you know 35 heterosexual couples doing and I'm not saying all of them are going to be good parents. I'm sure some of them are going to be abusive or horrible or get divorced or whatever. Right, but you want to give the baby the best options to have a good, normal life. Now.

Lisa 1:37:43

Gay people actually, when it comes to adoption, they usually have more money that's like what the statistics show, so they have better schools and things like that. That is true. But I think that it also sets them up for you know a adopted a white daughter and a black son and even at five she was having issues because he's like how come I don't look like you mommy and daddy? And when he went to daycare he would only want to play with like little black kids and like she was struggling with that. She's a wonderful parent. This kid's having a great life. I'm like not saying anything like I'm saying that people forget that these things come up and that they're traumatic to the child.

Brianna 1:38:33

So the child could be I gotta push back just a little bit. Yeah, thank you, uh. Catholic child services. What was that? I was adopted, um, and one of the things that happened to me is my right-wing family who who, by the way, if I'm thankful for anything in my life, it's the values that my right-wing family gave me. I think the reason I've had a successful transition is because of ideas like personal agency for my decisions, not waiting for some utopian government to come along and provide an answer for me. There's a ton of stuff to come along and provide an answer for me. There's a ton of stuff. I think it's not a coincidence that everyone on this show has a little bit of a conservative streak to us from our family background.

Brianna 1:39:16

But that said, you know, when I came out to my family, they disowned me that day and I was like that's right either Immediately afterwards, and you know it was really, really bad and I wish to God that I'd been adopted by like, a gay couple that would have understood me and not like, like have done so much psychological to me, damage to me. Every single time I liked something that was feminine. So I hear what you're saying, but I think there are a lot of use cases where they're they're gay, gay parents that are very helpful for those.

Lisa 1:39:52

Oh, I do. Like I said, statistically you know, it shows that gay parents are fine. I'm saying that like I think that anybody can be abusive. I think there's plenty of abuse in the right wing. Look at the Catholic church alone. Look at the priests, Right. But look at teachers just in schools. I mean there, there is always going to be a percentage of abuse, no matter what way you go. My thing I'm saying is given that aside right, give the kid the best chance all around should be the priority there.

Brianna 1:40:22

But this is I think this is my frustration with your way of thinking, lisa, because I this is what I think I think we all agree on this show that the left wing has kind of taken ownership of the entire trans issue right and have put it out there with a lot of messages that aren't just bad politics. I think it's not leading to a happier trans community. What I want to see is a conservative movement that doesn't treat trans people like we're disposable and doesn't treat gay people like they're disposable. That says like look, we are the force for stability in america. We believe in family, we believe in police, we believe in military service. You know, we believe in structure, but you have all that success for it? I don't think we ever have. But I'm saying like I I'm urging you to not say to give up on this, because I think we need those messages now more than ever.

Lisa 1:41:15

I just think that, like you, I feel like that was all I'm not giving up on like any. You know what I mean. I am very fringe and let me tell you my IVF stuff would. It's never going to be policy because it's so to everybody else. It's so insane. Okay, I will admit that like people are like lisa, like no, but I don't think anybody's entitled to children at all, like I just don't think that um, so um to my, I'm fringe there, like fine, like I'm fringe there, but I don't think that like I, I don't think that anybody is trying to.

Debating Trans Rights and Athleticism

Lisa 1:41:48

I I mean there's so many gay people that I know like like a ton of them in the Republican party, like my friend David there's conservative aunt that like I just saw him I didn't talk to him, but like I saw him this weekend, there's like so many of there's like I could list, like I just need to, but a hundred gay people that are in the conservative side. And let me tell you I will say this about the conservative party it's almost like weird. It's like if you're gay, or you're black and you're a conservative, or you are a Democrat and you were a conservative, or a Latino and you want to be a conservative. You are like, oh my God, we're going to put you front and center. We love you. You're the best thing that ever happened. Like is like that. If you believe that like things should be normal, like the log cabin republicans do, um, yeah, the get. The republican community will welcome you with open arms and because they have such a strong hold in the republican party, like I don't.

Lisa 1:42:44

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Like those people deaf, like gays against groomers and all that. Like there's a huge right wing gay community that nobody talks about. Like those people deaf, like gays against groomers and all that. Like there's a huge right wing gay community that nobody talks about. Like that, or I think that the left completely forgets about. So I don't think anybody's giving, especially not the right is giving up on gay whatever. They just want all the insanity and the constant visibility stuff to go away, and I think the only reason to do that is to have a better message and engage Like this is the same mistake that the progressives are making.

Brianna 1:43:13

They respect our message, they moralize it and say this is right and then they won't engage with people to do this. What I want to see is a conservative movement that comes out and says look, we understand that trans people exist, but here's our public policy solution for it. That has structure, that treats people with dignity, that gives them a path to jobs and a successful life. That, to me, that would be a conservative movement.

Lisa 1:43:42

That would be very appealing to a lot of people, but politically and policy-wise, I mean, how would that even look? And I say this with all due respect, right? So if you have, right now there's access to medical care, should you get access to free medical care? Should you have access to feminization, facial surgery? Because let me tell you, I could use some of that? Right, it's a good purchase. No, I'm just saying that like I would love free. Anyone would benefit, anybody.

Taf 1:44:12

Right, exactly yeah.

Lisa 1:44:14

Right. So my thing is is like what are we? What are we actually? A pathway to jobs? I mean, brianna, like you are a smart woman, and I don't know about the other women here, or you know whatever. Like you guys are all working as rocks, right? Yeah?

Brianna 1:44:29

You know, it's your job, yes'all jobs.

Lisa 1:44:30

Y'all have health insurances, I'm sure, right? Um, and so what we're really talking? We're really talking about I hate to say it like it's like nonsense, like are we having the same conversation for schizophrenics, like some schizophrenics get medicine and some are wandering around on the street right now? Is that, is that a product of them? Like not taking their medicine, not having access? I don't know, is it. Is it? Is it from having bad parents who just didn't care and let them, like leave? Is it from lack of willpower? Don't know, but there's no campaign for like let's let, uh, we have access to schizophrenia, good jobs and things like that.

Taf 1:45:06

I think you're making a good point, which is that, like we have all sorts of mental health issues but there isn't like an ADHD flag that people are putting in front of their house or like school children are saying so it's a very unique in that, in one sense, people want it to be like a medical issue and they want to advocate it, advocate for it on that basis, like saying you know, trans people need to be invited to women's sports, otherwise they'll kill themselves. Life-saving health care right, so people will make those claims, but at the same time, people treat it like a lifestyle kind of thing that you would just celebrate publicly and do all sorts of things, which is really not what we do for medical minorities. I think it's interesting that you're bringing up the sort of backslide that we've had, because, you know, I was looking at news from the 1950s the other day and there's this headline that's like uh, xgi becomes blonde bombshell and it's like you know, she's a happy woman after six surgeries. That's in the 1950s. They didn't care, right, right, didn't care.

Taf 1:46:03

I think a big part of that is because americans are totally willing to let people live their lives and be kind of like freaky and weird on their own, as long as they're not making it everyone else's problem. And we have this with plastic surgery. People get crazy plastic surgery. We have TV shows about it, but because they're not saying that it's like a medical necessity and that we need to teach children about it, we allow people to get ridiculously large fake breasts and whatever. We believe that that's your, you know, god given right over your own body, whatever.

Lisa 1:46:35

Right, and nobody's asking not to stare at them when they walk into the store. They're not asking for special favors or they're not saying please use my right titty pronoun right, Exactly Right, and we're not trying to legislate any of that, right.

Taf 1:46:48

I think that, like, yeah, huge problem with transa is just as soon as we've made it everyone else's problem and we've tried to insist on these legal defenses, that side clearly with us over other people's rights, you know, like transports or whatever. The idea that, like, this philosophical debate should just be solved with the government siding on the side of trans people is kind of ridiculous in the sense that it ignores other people's right to choose who to associate with and who what kind of athletes they want to have on their teams so that athlete thing is different.

Taf 1:47:24

We'll get into that, yeah, yeah I mean, there's there's this whole other issue of fairness, but I think it's totally legitimate if, like, a sports organization wants to set their rules, you know, excluding trans athletes or having a mixed gender thing or whatever. At the end of the day, athletes should be able to choose. You know where they want to participate. We have.

Lisa 1:47:41

Like, I'm wrong too, but we have the special Olympics, right? We're not like, oh, these people that are in, they're in a wheelchair, they feel so bad that they can't compete in the regular Olympics, right? No, and I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with those people, right? Some people are born without legs. Okay, they're not going to compete in the regular Olympics. Does it hurt their feelings? Do they wish that they would, I'm sure, but they're a minority of the population and we accommodate them. So why not have trans Olympics? Trans Olympics.

Brianna 1:48:13

You of the population and we accommodate them. So why not have trans olympics?

Lisa 1:48:15

you know fine, but I don't think anyone here wants trans women in sports. I don't think we know. No, I don't think so either. But I'm just saying for for other people listening that may hate all of us or especially hate me, but like I'm sure that they will, like you know they're. They're things like oh well, look at that person's gonna kill themselves. Well, I hate to break it to you, but like the suicide rates are insane anyway because we've been coddling people.

Lisa 1:48:36

Life is hard life is hard, and if you don't, I agree and if you don't start to find out that life is hard, now right like if my kid's five years old, like my son, he needs to know like sort of he's in football.

Lisa 1:48:49

Like do not cry when you get up, do not cry right. Like like life is hard and you know what. Every time he doesn't and I yell at him like he gets out there and plays harder and does better, and then he's so happy to be overcame something, rather than me just rubbing his back on the sideline. That doesn't help him. He learned to overcome correct.

Lisa 1:49:06

He learned resilience, and so the more that these people are like, oh, they're going to feel better, they're going to kill themselves, they don't whatever.

Lisa 1:49:25

No, it makes it worse for overcoming all of that, don't you think that that's like I don't know who believes in God or what, but God gives you a cross to bear. I do think that God probably made people gay right, and everybody has their own. I have my own, very difficult crosses to bear, and so being trans or being gay or being born, and not how you feel in your body is is it's actually a gift, it's an opportunity right To to you know, fight things, fight natural urges, fight yourself and and come out of that bigger and better and stronger and a more complete human. And if people are not looking at it that way, they're saying just love me and accept me for me how I am. But you see that with you know, 700 fat, fat, pound, obese people love me, accept me for for the way I'm, but you're dying and it's killing you. It's the same thing like we are way too lenient on people mentally.

Brianna 1:50:18

I think about this a lot, lisa. Like, who would I have been if I hadn't been born with gender dysphoria? I'd probably be another racist, mississippi redneck called. Well, like half the other people down there, I would not have had a life where I was invited on the Tim cast, for instance. So I can appreciate that. But at the same time there is a Republican project right now to make my life much, much harder, to dehumanize me, like constantly. Oh, I'm telling you it was the worst thing I ever did. I deeply regret doing my.

Lisa 1:50:54

My friend runs American principles projects. One of those organizations that I'm sure that you would say is is part of that. Right, but you, but I, honestly, I think you're looking at it wrong. The Republican party is reacting to what your party did. The Republican party is reacting to that, and it's the Republican Party is reacting to that, and it's a natural reaction to lash, to not lash back but like to say, hey, this is out of control, because it wasn't that way. So it's not that the Republicans have an agenda, it's that the Democrats have a problem pushing this, pushing it so far.

Taf 1:51:28

They're lashing back right, but that will stop.

Brianna 1:51:32

See because that's actually the catalyst, it'll stop. The whole reason we started Dollcast is to push back on this stuff.

Lisa 1:51:40

You're doing the right thing, but my point is that you're saying that there's a whole Republican faction dedicated to that.

Brianna 1:51:47

They said there's a political project that is actually in the right and the left to make my life much harder and to denigrate trans women. Nowadays it's not good for me psychologically to have strangers like analyze like. I've had more gross comments about my vagina from gender criticals than anything any man has ever said to me in my entire life is. It's gross, it's so dehumanizing and I think there's a cruelty that has been awoken there that is not successful. And just one more thing I want to say here in Massachusetts we have a law that if you have health insurance, they will then go and get you help for gender dysphoria. So something a lot of trans girls do here in my state is they can actually go work at Starbucks for a year and a half and they will qualify for health insurance and then they can go get gender affirming surgery. And I like this a lot because it's saying to someone okay, like unemployment is such a huge issue, with trans people not having jobs or having a direction, and it's like here's something you want, a goal and we'll help you, but you need to go, participate and be a productive person for a year and then we will start moving you there. And I think that to me, this is a good example of public policy this treating trans people with dignity, but it's also asking to chip in and develop some skills along the way.

Economic Impact of Healthcare Incentives

Brianna 1:53:14

It's really surprising to me because I used to think that once vaginoplasty was covered by insurance, that the trans community would be much psychologically healthier. It's actually, as best as I can tell them, a lot of ways the opposite, because these girls go out, they have a $3,000 copay for a surgery that is very, very difficult and it doesn't get them in any direction. They're not picking up job skills, they're not learning how to integrate. They don't even have to go out into the real world for a year to get a lot of these surgeries. So what I'm saying to you is the original standards that you're saying you want to get back to. Those were a compromise between liberal values and conservative values. The Benjamin Standards of Care were looking at this entire system and saying society is going to be thinking about this and the patient needs this. Here's something right in the middle. So I just I wish you wouldn't write the entire political project off, because I think we need those senior voices to help people like the three of us turn this entire ship around.

Lisa 1:54:16

I think, though I think that, okay, I see what you're saying, but like, shouldn't that just be like a blanket? Like right now we have tons of people that are on welfare that I know like my friend was one of them she would get her EBT card and go get her nails done I'm not even kidding. Okay, right, I was young, I hung out with a lot of rough people, but, yeah, so you know. But she would go to, like they would like oh, you know, you just have to say you're looking for a job, and then she would like sign in or go to this one class thing, and as long as she did that, she could just keep getting it, even if she didn't get a job, and she could turn down as many jobs as she wanted.

Lisa 1:54:54

Right, this is just a straight, regular white girl. Okay, she could turn down as many jobs as she wanted, and she just sat home chilling and sometimes bartending on the side and collecting money, right, and she had a hard life she grew up with like a mom and a cocaine father, and her mom was working three jobs and they were on welfare, and like she had a hard life and her mom needed the help, but like there was no, even with the good intention of that program. Right, I'm watching my money be like the taxpayer and I keep going to work and paying my taxes and I'm watching my friend get her nails done by tiffany locks um, you know, like buy all kinds of food that I can't afford, right, and I'm watching that and I'm like, wow, this is like really frustrating. Especially, I still love that girl more than life itself. But, um, but like, still, this is, this is the thing that's happening.

Lisa 1:55:42

And so now you have you have other people that are saying, like, okay, now, but we have to do this for this community, we have to do that for that community, we have to do this for this community, we have to do that for that community, we have to do this for this community. I know that it's better for society if they're integrated and working, but there will also be ways to gain the system. How about, if you really want the surgery, you go out and get a job at Starbucks on your own for a year, anyway, and you work hard and you get the insurance and then you save up for your deductible and actually do the thing.

Brianna 1:56:14

That's the way it works that's the way it works in massachusetts.

Taf 1:56:21

Other states don't love this no but brianna, I will say that, like, if you want trans people to have jobs and one incentive to have a job is that you can get ffs, that's just every job like any job that you get, it's not getting money so you can save for surgery.

Taf 1:56:37

So, like, you know, let's say we get rid of insurance covering FFS, then there's more incentive to succeed for trans people because they don't just have to work like a one year Starbucks job, they actually have to get like an engineering degree and contribute a ton to society in terms of value value.

Taf 1:56:59

So I feel like if the goal is to have trans people, you know, integrate and have profitable jobs and stuff, um, seems like the insurance thing around starbucks is actually disincentivizing that. Yes, because like, let's say, I'm a trans woman who has the ability to get like a job as a programmer right, and I want to get ffs, I might say to myself, well, it'd be way easier to get a starbucks job. Oh, and when I factor in insurance, paying for ffs, which might cost like 75k and I get like a one-year starbucks job, the effective benefits might be like 100k, where 75 of that is just the health insurance. And so I'm being incentivized to get the starbucks job rather than like, go out and the programming job, earn tons of money and just get it that way To be better for us To be clear, you could also do that in Massachusetts with an engineering job, and you could get FFS that way.

Brianna 1:57:47

What you're just trying to say is that insurance.

Lisa 1:57:50

in Massachusetts insurance is mandated Just like any time, like any time you have any type of insurance, it's covered, ok, well, a certain type of insurance, it's covered. Okay, well, a certain type of insurance, yeah, well, I mean, okay, well, that's kind of like different, but like so, even with that, right, it's kind of like how Obamacare was supposed to be great and it drove up our prices for everybody, and it made it like all works, Right, the more that you like mandate types of coverage and things like that the actual, the more expensive it makes them. Not only that, though, but we have these hospitals that are making kids forever patients, or making trans people forever patients, right, like this is like a trans care for patients.

Lisa 1:58:31

I mean, I take estrogen like everyone else, my age does no, but like, but no, no, if you, if you look at like, even, um, there's undercover video of it. I don't remember if it was philadelphia children chop or another one, but they were like look guys, I'm these, these surgeries and stuff. They're making the hospitals a ton of money and I'll send you the, I'll send you the undercover footage and all that about what they call me forever.

Brianna 1:58:56

Patients like I take ten dollars of estradiol a month and I take I don't know thyroxine, which is a thyroid drug that has nothing to do with anything like right, I, I don't know what you have, but there's a lot of people that are having these surgeries, they're having and they're having complications.

Lisa 1:59:16

they're having hormone replacement that lasts forever, right, and like they're doing that the they're having hormone replacement that lasts forever, right, and like they're doing that the hospitals and stuff are incentivized to actually like make us all sicker and whatever. Then it's kind of like they're there to make money.

Lisa 1:59:28

So even now it's just kind of like school. So the moment that the federal government right started subsidizing federal student loans so everybody could go to school, and clearly everybody thought that that was a better idea if everybody was college educated, right. But the moment they did that tuition, like, the schools raised their tuitions by 400, 700% right, because they knew that they were federally guaranteed and backed, right. And so what that inevitably wound up doing was actually making it harder and more expensive for everybody to go to school and wound up putting people in more debt by federally subsidizing these loans. And so I kind of see it and I'm not saying that it shouldn't be covered, but I'm saying like this ubiquitous type of like, um, you know, making it uh, super affordable and whatever for everyone, actually only drives price like backed by the government, only drives prices up and and winds up will hurt the community even more well, the other thing, part of that is the bureaucracy.

Taf 2:00:26

So when you get the government involved in the schools, now suddenly there is a strong incentive from the government to make sure that schools are following all of these bureaucratic standards up to and including the enforcement of like progressive policies and you know, hiring policies and enrollment policies as you get these really weird pernicious effects.

Taf 2:00:48

I think you probably see that in trans health care too, where you get the government involved in this sort of thing and now there's an incentive, there's a political dimension to it, right. So now you have these governmental bureaucracies trying to make sure that the clinics are following the progressive agenda and no one feels comfortable speaking up about maybe ill effects of HRT, whatever it is. Basically, as soon as you take it outside of the competitive market, the actual results they matter way less. What matters is trying to appeal to the government donors, and the government donors oftentimes have viewpoints which are not super conducive to actual flourishing. They're conducive to political aims. Oftentimes those aims are progressive, because lots of bureaucrats are progressive people. So you just end up with all of these deeply, deeply pernicious effects as soon as you start involving the government.

Lisa 2:01:43

It's like that old saying the path to hell is paved with good intentions. And I think that I see, I do see what you're saying and I'm like but if you really like, flesh it all the way, like, keep going to its like most complete ends. Usually doesn't look good when the government gets involved with anything and that's why I said just stop. Just stop, because I swear life will get better if everybody just stops.

Brianna 2:02:09

I just think just mathematically like I don't want to say how much money I make, but the amount I pay in taxes a year is non-trivial. And like there's a large difference in how much money I made, like before I got FFS, and how much I make today, like when I can integrate it about my day much more easily. Like it was actually a really good investment for the Massachusetts Like not that it did pay for a single dime of my health care, but if it had, that would have been a really good investment because they got so much more that money back in terms of jobs created and taxes that I pay but you are an anomaly.

Lisa 2:02:50

like I hate to break it to you, but like you're an anomaly, you ever see a lot of these people that like transition and even if you look at the studies, even after they do, they actually become worse off. Okay, like like there's, there's studies that show that, um, and they're not. What? No, no, no, statistically you are minority.

Sky 2:03:11

I would say minority minority.

Lisa 2:03:14

Outlier Fine, I you know. Outlier fine, I you know. Whatever, don't judge, I'm not trying to. Yeah, your point is is that, like you know a lot of people, this is like, uh, it's a, it's a multi-faceted mental health problem. Maybe for you, this was it, right, um. Maybe for skylar and anybody else, right like, this is pretty much your thing, right, um? And if you but other people have compounding things and so they think this is going to be their catch all, and then when they fix that, they're still miserable, right, I think that just in general. I think that another thing that we have is like an obsession with this. It's going to sound crazy too. Here we go, an obsession with healthcare. Anyway, part of depression is like ruminating on your problems, like thinking about them over and over again.

Lisa 2:03:58

I had. I was a very bad kid. I was a very deserved disturbed, okay, kicked out of two high schools. I didn't go back to college until I was 27. I was fist fighting. I was hanging out with gangs and bartending and I was. And then I went and worked in the halls of Congress. Okay, like my life was. Everybody used to call me train wreck Lisa. It was awful, right. Even now my brother was doing. Um, he went to see a patient and the lady said oh, I used to work at the school and he goes. So did you know Lisa Reynolds? And she was like yeah, right and right, like they hated me.

Lisa 2:04:31

I was horrible, okay, but my parents, you know what they didn't do? They didn't tolerate it. They said there's nothing freaking wrong with you, right? They were like you don't have borderline personality disorder, you're not bipolar, you're not ADHD, which maybe I was right. The point is is that they were like we're not doing this, you're going to have to learn behavioral coping mechanisms to deal with all those emotions and things that are making you lash out and misbehave.

Lisa 2:04:59

And I say to my brother all the time like, how did we make it out of certain things? Or why are we like this? Like why, why is my life? Like, how did I, how did I not become a drug addict? All my friends I have like 25 friends dead, right, heroin, uh, the, the, the girls that I was hanging out with were smoking crack. I'm not even kidding. Like this was my life was insane and I didn't become a drug addict and I didn't become. I didn't need to go on psych meds, even though I thought I did. I went to therapy and I'm like, oh my God, what's wrong with me? And then they gave me a million diagnosis.

Lisa 2:05:30

I got diagnosis like literally clinically bipolar, and I'm like, how, I don't have manic episodes, I'm not depressed ever, like ever. I'm just, I don't know, grumpy and a lot like. I have a lot of emotions, so like. And then they took it away. They were like you're not, but like.

Lisa 2:05:46

My point is I was attention seeking, for that, I needed some validation that I wasn't getting from my mom or I wasn't getting from my peers so tall and skinny and awkward, right Like, we all have these things that go for it.

Lisa 2:05:55

But because my parents would not tolerate me ruminating or me being depressed, they're like, oh, enough of this, right, I made it out. And I think that the more that we give in right and not make it and not make it so easy to say, oh, you have depression, I like I said my kids football field. A nine-year-old girl is talking about how she has anxiety. You don't have anxiety, you're nine, you're nine years old, nothing happened to your parents, you're not abused, you don't have anxiety, you're nine. Right, like there's these kids and they're having these conversations about mental health problems at nine. No, the harder that we make it to be mentally ill I hate to say it like that, right, but the more people will be strong and overcome these things that they're having. We're encouraging people, whether we know it or not, by being so lax on them, to have these issues and to be mentally ill. Now, like I said, schizophrenia, some types of dysphoria, things that there are people that are really truly mentally bipolar and are having episodes, manic episodes. I'm not discounting any of that.

Taf 2:07:02

I'm not saying that I'm serious.

Lisa 2:07:04

What I'm saying is if you make it easy to excuse your behavior I wasn't those things, but it would have been easy for me to excuse my behavior to go be put on these drugs. This one doctor when I was underage put me on Paxil. Now we all know the side effects of Paxil are terrible, right, like suicidal thoughts, bad behavior in kids. They want to put me on that. My parents were like you're not taking shit, right? And if I didn't listen to that or if I fell into that, who knows, I could today very much be a drugged up person in some psych ward, still thinking that I have psych issues when I didn't. I just needed some accountability. And so for people that it's real, fine, let it be real for them, but for everybody else, make it hard. So you got to figure out if it's real or not.

Sky 2:07:53

To be like to continue like in that theme. That's really what I think is the problem with, where we've seen like trans, at least with trans medical care. That's where it's gone with like just the like, not the self ID, but the informed consent model where you can just, you know, get a prescription of testosterone or estrogen just by showing up and just saying, yeah, I want this. Like real care in this space is putting up some barriers and challenging you to like help you explore your identity. I mean, this was very much like what Bree was sharing, like I thought very similar Lisa, like that.

Sky 2:08:28

My issue with gender dysphoria was just an internal problem that I could work through or like muster through by force, until it again eventually was causing so many congenital problems just because I couldn't control the disruption of my thoughts that I was like I need to really escalate this to the point of actually seeking therapy and working through a clinician to see, um, what are my options? It wasn't even oh, I want to transition, it was what are my options? How can I manage this?

Lisa 2:08:56

How can I make myself feel better? I want to transition.

Sky 2:08:58

It was what are my options? How can I manage this? How can I make myself feel better? Right, yeah, like cognitive, behavioral therapy, all of the types of ways to write like challenge myself, before saying, before accepting the fact that, like, okay, this is going to be a persistent struggle, I'm not outgrowing this. That was a big part of my story as I was 25. I was already. I was trying to go into the workforce. I was in the workforce but I was having difficulties because of this very issue and it not going away. And it was like I'm grateful. I'm glad that medical transition is an option, like imagine if I had existed a hundred years ago and I went about to just live life in the state.

Lisa 2:09:34

Yeah, I'm not saying I would. I don't think I'm not saying that. I think that it shouldn't be an option. I don't think that doctors shouldn't be able to perform these surgeries or do that. I'm saying like, let's make it serious care where you really have to evaluate. I think actually almost all children should do cognitive behavioral therapy, even like I.

Lisa 2:09:52

Like I said I did, I studied behavioral economics in college and there's actually studies where cognitive behavioral therapy has helped, like people you know do better in their life financially, even later in years, and like everybody needs some cognitive behavioral therapy because we all fight our own demons in here. But but yeah, but I honestly think that I'm not saying it should be. When I say it should be difficult, I'm not saying it should be like hard and painstaking, like oh my God, what am I going to do to even get care? No, I think we need more access to mental health stuff. But we also need the mental health people to not be so indulgent, right? And I think part of the problem is that people not trying to fix everything through a prescription.

Sky 2:10:33

Yeah, I completely agree.

Lisa 2:10:36

I mean in the link to that, we're real quick. People go into health like psychology and stuff, like if you ever notice that people that are really looking into it, because they all they had their own mental stuff going on right, so then they got really into it and then they go become psychiatrists. So you've got like the blind leading the blind half the time. So statistically like it's true. So so there has to be some rigidity and that's why I think some should exist in society to push back against this right To weed out the people that aren't really suffering for real and that can be healed in other ways, but for the people that need to be healed in this way, okay. I don't think anybody's disputing that.

Taf 2:11:13

Yeah, but I think a lot of people just don't want to do that. And one thing that I'm loving in this conversation about you, lisa you're very willing to speak your mind and, like argue with people, and we need that kind of disagreeableness because it's agreeable people who just say like, oh, you know, your feelings are what matter most. I'm never going to challenge you. I'm going to reaffirm every belief that you come into my office with. That's the kind of attitude that results in these bad mental health outcomes, because you're just prescribing whatever the person asks for rather than doing the really hard work which is like, actually I don't think this would be good for you. That's really hard to tell a patient, but sometimes that's necessary to do so, you know, politically or in terms of mental health, really, in so ways, we just need people to speak their mind and to be honest and to be a little bit disagreeable, rather than affirming every single belief that someone has these disagreeables made my life very difficult?

Navigating Social Conformity and Truth Seeking

Taf 2:12:11

No, it's. Yeah, there's disadvantages, absolutely, unfortunately, like agreeable people, people they can sort of like. You know I'm trying to be a huge advantage, but I think society is better off if everyone is willing to speak their mind and so yeah, that's true that is lisa, have you always been this disagreeable?

Sky 2:12:33

I just have to like oh, this has been my entire life.

Lisa 2:12:34

I've been probably this works before because I didn't have like a grip on who I've been my entire life I've been probably was worse before because I didn't have like a grip on who I was. Sorry, charlie, chill, come here. Um, come here I. I like I was always a very just yeah, just not disagreeable, very blunt, right, like I'm from philadelphia but.

Lisa 2:12:51

I always spoke my mind. I'm sorry about whatever I was thinking and people don't really love that. As a matter of fact, it was hard for me to have relationships and things like that because you know, especially as a tall I'm 5'11 girl right, you know, every guy's like man. That's like a six foot person yelling at me and she's not like she's. I have very masculine energy, right like I'm really trying to get into like my. I dress in girly dresses and do the makeup on my house. It looks like a girl house but my personality is like Whoa and it's like a woman.

Brianna 2:13:27

to me, to be totally honest with you, like this is a personality type from the South.

Lisa 2:13:33

Well, I know it's funny. It's like the girls from the South, I know they're so. They have this perfectly teeth that I'm jealous of and there's perfect jawlines and they're all sitting there beautiful and they're all like, yes, man, no man, I love them, but no, I think it's a Northeast thing. But out of all my friends and stuff, they were always like Lisa just says whatever she's thinking. Crazy, a lot with crazy lisa, train wreck lisa, um, and a lot of that was because I would say exactly what I was thinking and they didn't like it. I'm like you know what the crazy part is is that you're all thinking it like whatever I was saying it's something that they would all be thinking, but I what said it out loud on the problem, like that's not how this works. But uh, society is really used to conformity and no one wants to be the one to.

Taf 2:14:19

You know, stand out and say what they're thinking, because there are consequences to that. Like, let's be really honest, that is painful to do, but it is the people who are willing to do that that ultimately break down. You know the mores of society that hold us back. They're the ones who point out that the emperor has no clothes.

Taf 2:14:39

So yeah, I don't know I feel like I am also very much this way, and then I'm just I'm totally unwilling to just say something for the purposes of agreement or just have a smooth conversation like I need to dig into the truth there, and so, yeah, that probably also needs to happen with mental health.

Lisa 2:15:00

Truth seeking is like important, you know I, but I want people to know that I come at it from like, and I think this is where a lot gets lost in translation on both sides. I think that the left I really believe my heart, that the left really believes that they want to make the world a better place and they want everything to be good and happy. I really think they think that. I think that I had a class one time, a human rights class, where we were all fighting I was the only conservative there and they were like, oh, republicans are evil, trump's evil, lisa's evil.

Lisa 2:15:28

And I'm like I turn around, like, yeah, who wants to partner with me? Like my life isn't easier by doing this. It'd be easier just to like agree with you all Right, but with you all right. But like I'm being honest and I wouldn't have been in a human rights class if I didn't care about human rights, right? So, um, we all care about what we think is good and true, which just getting there. So the more that we demonize each other and listen, you can go read my twitter there are plenty of times where I'm like I hate the left and I want them to suffer and be miserable a few times I get your adverts for tiktok.

Debate on Gender and Sexuality

Lisa 2:15:56

it checks out, I mean but the truth is I do want certain. Again, I'll be honest with you. I want certain times to suffer. I, I couldn't. I couldn't, you know, put a Trump sticker on my car without fear of the windows being busted out of it? Right, I certainly, even to this day, if you look at my resume, can't get a job anywhere, even if I leave lives of TikTok off there because I'm a conservative that lives in Philly. I am unhirable, okay, from working for right wing members of Congress and then, even if I just let that, still unhirable. But then if I take that and put in Tim Pool or lives of TikTok or Tommy Robinson in the UK, then I am like person non grata, I will have no job. So, like you know, there are consequences here. But what I think is that the left thinks that we hate them, and I didn't before.

Lisa 2:16:44

I used to write these long essays and it was cool to write on Facebook. I would like write these things about how we need to approach the, the right from a personal left, from a compassionate side, and really talk to them, and not what. And then I just got banged against the head and it got to the point where I've been called a bigot, a uh, a Russian Putin prof, whatever. I've been called a bigot, a racist, a homophobe. I've been spit at, I've been threatened, my kids have been threatened. Um, all kinds of stuff has happened to me because of that and I'm thinking like I want you to suffer just like I did. I'm only human and I want to get back.

Lisa 2:17:21

Okay, so through the people to the leftist, the progressives that did that were the progressives that want to push this nasty stuff on my kids. Yeah, I want. No, do I?

Taf 2:17:30

want you guys to suffer. No, do I want them to suffer.

Brianna 2:17:35

Yes, I got an appointment downtown. I've got a couple of questions to ask before before we bounce. The first is are the three of us invited to Lisa's girly lunch the next time? We're all in town, yo.

Lisa 2:17:49

I will, let's do it. I'm totally down Like let's hang out.

Brianna 2:17:54

I am like this is like who we genuinely are, like if you didn't write us hair, we would not be happy. People Like you can see that.

Lisa 2:18:03

No, but I'm not trying to like. I'm not saying people should be denied healthcare. I'm saying we shouldn't be mandating these things.

Brianna 2:18:11

I'm just saying. I'm saying, like, as far as us just getting along as fellow citizens, I mean, you can see, this is who we authentically are, right, yeah?

Lisa 2:18:19

absolutely. That's why I want to be honest with you about the kid thing. Yeah, no, I appreciate that.

Brianna 2:18:26

Yeah, uh. The second one is a question we ask everyone on the show. It's a little bit edgy, that's okay. Our traps gay.

Lisa 2:18:35

Are what gay Are what?

Sky 2:18:39

Are traps gay.

Taf 2:18:40

Is it gay for a man to be attracted to a trans woman?

Lisa 2:18:44

Yes, oh, yes, guys, all right. So here's the deal. Here's the deal. Okay, if you look at like, okay, if you look at your ladies and a guy's like, oh, that's a really pretty woman, right, okay, that's not gay, because they don't know that they're uh, whatever. But then if they say, okay, well, I went on sex with you and you put down your pants and you have a penis, then yes, it's gay, then it's a little gay, still gay, really he's still gay yeah, because, yeah, it just is.

Lisa 2:19:24

It is because it's not I hate to say it, it's like not an authentic vagina. If you want to, if you want to be, okay, it's queer. Maybe we'll put it that way. I don't know the real term.

Brianna 2:19:34

I think of it as bisexual that's better, but it's definitely not.

Taf 2:19:37

It doesn't have to be gay. I don't know the real term.

Lisa 2:19:38

I think of it as spicy heterosexual, spicy heterosexual.

Taf 2:19:39

That's better, but it's definitely not.

Lisa 2:19:41

It doesn't have to be gay, it's definitely not straight. If they have a vagina, if they have a penis, gay. They have a vaginalplasty In the middle too. Gay, but not straight, and that's it. Is that fair?

Brianna 2:19:57

We ask everyone, we're trying to survey everyone, like guys?

Lisa 2:20:04

if there was a woman and she got a penis, a phalloplasty and whatever, then I wanted to like that would be gay. Yeah, real quick. Can I say one quick story, quick story. This girl I knew, girl, I know this is what I want, I say is really wrong. This girl I knew, she's really cute, heavier sack girl, had a problem dating. She was going on dating apps first date ever. She finally gets somebody to like whatever. She matches with this guy. She meets him a couple times. He's studying to be a doctor or whatever. And so he she gets her first kiss. She comes and tells us and he's like, he's like, oh, I'm having surgery this week, but I'll call you after. And she's like so happy about it. Right, he was, he was a she who was having surgery, never told her. So her first experience as a woman, getting her first kiss as a heterosexual girl from what she thought was a man was actually a female and that was wrong. So that needs to stop too.

Taf 2:21:06

You probably need to tell people at the very least.

Lisa 2:21:08

It's very misleading and it was really traumatic for her as somebody who didn't even get her first kiss until 24 anyway, and let me tell you that's a good beard. He looked like a man to me, you know. I mean, oh, he's cute. I said it right, you got it. You got to disclose that. Guys like that has to be a disclosure.

Lisa 2:21:26

I'm married this problem is many years past me yeah, well, you know, I'm not saying I'll leave it to the next generation to fight this but since we were asking, I wanted to tell that story because I felt so bad for that girl.

Taf 2:21:39

But but anyway and men are such like visual creatures like they will look at like a curvy piece of driftwood and if it looks like it has boobs, they'll like get wholly quiet right and so like men are just like, they don't really care. If it's like actually a woman they're looking at, if it's woman shaped, that's enough for a lot of them and I think that's like that's probably a very straight quality to have. And then I think what you're saying is like when the when the pants come down and it's no longer just like the image of a pretty woman, that's when it becomes a little bit gay, which I think is right and everyone that we've asked this question to you, that's like the standard answer.

Lisa 2:22:17

Yeah, I think, and I think that's fair. I mean, whatever Any other questions for us.

Taf 2:22:25

That was really the most important question, yeah.

Brianna 2:22:28

I have no record about that.

Lisa 2:22:30

Well, I appreciate you guys inviting me and I'm sorry that I talk so much.

Taf 2:22:35

No, you're delightful, you were great.

Lisa 2:22:38

And I really enjoyed this conversation. You know what we should do. We should have these type of conversations. We should do it on the culture war. We should have all three of you guys and have these same type of conversations, and I think a lot of people aren't having it. We should get somebody who disagrees with you guys a little more. You guys can be the middle people. I'll be the strong other way and then, you know, they can be the ones pushing up saying that I'm like the worst racist bigot ever. But I'm not so it is what it is.

Taf 2:23:08

But I appreciate it, which is always fun when you can fight with someone Like actually fight and like enjoy that, Because it's so rare to meet someone who you can like like debate with and then come away from the debate being like well, that was fun, like I'm glad we had that interaction.

Lisa 2:23:20

Most people cannot handle that, but you guys are great. Well, I appreciate being by anything else, brianna, because I'm like thanks for coming on.

Brianna 2:23:27

I gotta go, uh, gotta go downtown, so all right.

Lisa 2:23:30

Well, best of luck to you guys. I love you and I hope you all have like happy, healthy and good luck with kids or whatever yeah thanks for coming on.

Sky 2:23:37

Thanks, she is a firecracker, oh my gosh.

Taf 2:23:41

Yes, I just want to like talk with her more about any one of these issues because I feel like adoption, like I could like drill down on that, I don't know if yeah, and it's like oh yeah, it's just like it's hard because you don't want to like turn the whole show into like a debate about one thing. So you have to know like okay, you know whatever, but you could definitely I could definitely talk this long I really wanted to lean in on her.

Sky 2:24:04

Like standard for like I don't know, heterosexual dynamics is like that's the acceptable point. Because I'm like, what about divorces? What about alcoholics? Like there's so many like, yeah, like layers that you could just be like why are you just calling like out trans people here this is so and gay people? Like what the heck she?

Taf 2:24:22

was alluding to this, but it is like gay couples that have really good outcomes for adopted children, and she was saying like she was preempting this by saying like, oh, they're richer and so they get better outcomes, and so that's an interesting counterpoint to be like. Well, it seems like adoption is kind of a selection effect, where the only people that can actually afford to adopt are the ones that already kind of have their lives in order, and so maybe it's actually better for these children to get adopted out to gay couples. Now, I don't know if I'd really make that argument, but if you just go by the standard of like you know what does the seems like maybe there's an argument for gay people, which is interesting at the very least yep right, amazing, amazing good stuff.

Taf 2:25:09

Shall we close out the show?

Sky 2:25:12

yeah, should we close it out? Brie, you need to go by two, okay, all right. Well, okay, we'll just go ahead and, um, well, all right, that's it for doll cast today. Um, huge thank you to Lisa Elizabeth for joining us. She was awesome. Uh, so much energy and quite some crazy opinions, um, but overall, great guests. Um, and, as always, polite disagreement slash a good bit of agreement too. You know that's what we like to do here on Dollcast. So, again now, if you are interested in looking into more content and our prior episodes, just make sure to check us out at thedollcastshowcom. That's dollcastshowcom. We're on Spotify, apple Podcasts, number of different platforms, and make sure to follow us on YouTube and TikTok. Youtube is the best one. Youtube is the one you want to do. Yes, exactly yeah, youtube is the best. Um, so, anyways, until next time, stay fabulous.