The Habit Architect

THA S02 EP#12 - Inclusive Leadership Starts with Curiosity, Not Compliance

• Michael Cupps • Season 2 • Episode 12

Share episode

Michael Cupps sits down with Rachel Shaw, CEO of Shaw HR, to explore creating inclusive workplaces for employees with disabilities. Rachel shares her journey from handling ADA compliance to building a career helping organizations move beyond checkbox compliance toward human-centric decision making.

Learn why diverse workforces are 20% more profitable, the critical difference between starting with "no" versus curiosity, and how to build processes that find more yeses for reasonable accommodations. Rachel reveals common leadership mistakes and practical frameworks for disability accommodation.

This Show is sponsored by TimeBandit.io

Check out our Live Show Events here: The Habit Architect Live Show

Subscribe to our Newsletter: The Habit Architect Newsletter

Michael Cupps:

Hello and welcome to The Habit Architect. I'm excited about this episode today. We've got an important topic to cover but before we get into that, remember that time Bandit is the sponsor of the Habit Architect, and I'd appreciate it if you go out to time bandit.io and take a look at our training, our mobile app and things like that because we can really help you with. Get tying your values to your habits and your priority management scheme. Do go check it out@tombennett.io. Alright, today's guest is Rachel Shaw from Shaw hr. And we're gonna talk about a, an important topic and something that I think we overlook a lot of times when we think about business. And that's really how do you accommodate, how do you serve with empathy, the community that needs help assimilating into the workplace, disabilities we're gonna talk a little bit about a DA or American Disabilities Act. But more importantly about what leadership looks like when you are inclusive and when you are building a company that embraces diversity and actually helps diversity thrive. Because that's how we are, we're all better. And it's interesting, I was talking with somebody that doesn't live in the US and the comment that she made to me when I mentioned I was gonna be interviewing Rachel today was sad. And it really hit home though, the importance of this. And she said basically, in the country that she lives in. If somebody is confined to a wheelchair, that means they live on the streets, which I first is heartbreaking. But secondly, it just tells you that, at least in the US we have an opportunity to embrace disabilities and actually make 'em part of what we are all about in that diverse culture. So I'm excited. So Rachel Shaw is gonna be joining us if we wanna bring her from backstage. And Rachel is the CEO and founder, I believe, of Shaw hr. And you do a lot of work with companies of all sizes, I'm guessing but primarily larger companies. I'm guessing, but welcome to the show. Thank you, Rachel.

Rachel Shaw:

Thank you so much for having me, Michael. It's great to be here.

Michael Cupps:

Yep. And I know I don't know how much of that intro you heard, but hopefully that's in line with what we're gonna talk about after meeting you. I think that's what you're passionate about. Can you tell us a little bit about you and your journey to Shaw HR? First.

Rachel Shaw:

Sure. So I am one of the traditional HR professionals who started my career doing a DA disability compliance based on that piece of your job description that says other duties is assigned no training, no ex. Experience. And I found that I was a pretty good company because most people doing disability inclusion work didn't have training, formal training or experience. And so a lot of learning on the job. And I had the wonderful opportunity to learn on the job, get better at it. And now that I've created programs and processes, I work with employers of all sizes to help them implement. Strong programs and processes so that they can make not only legally compliant decisions, but also human-centric decisions. So I love what I do. I'm super lucky that I get this wonderful niche, which is it's practical work. We have to make sure we have a workforce that can work, but we also have an opportunity to find a heck of a lot more yeses for folks that need us to remove unnecessary barriers so that they can enjoy the benefits and burdens of employment. So I love what I do. I'm super lucky.

Michael Cupps:

Oh I'm so excited to talk to you about it too. And I can tell you, you are passionate about it. The interesting thing you said there that I wanna point out is you said also, compassionate about making available and I've worked in software business my entire career, too many years to talk about, but a lot of 'em, and it was a couple of years ago, or maybe, probably more than five or six years ago, and I remember the chief product officer said, made a comment that said, we, oh, and it was like a burden. We have to make our software available to those that can't see. And the way that it was structured, it was like, we have to do this. And by the way, the company wasn't based in the us it was somewhere else, but it was still, it was disheartening because we should want to do this right? Because it just opens up in that software to more people and it just felt wrong. And so what do you see as the biggest mistakes leaders are making? Is it that assumption? It's just a compliance problem.

Rachel Shaw:

I think with all inclusion, whether it's disability or any other type of inclusion goal, we really have to understand hearts and minds, right? Oftentimes if we just rely on empathy, you're gonna get some people who see it as a burden, a cost. People, human nature is not always great for us in business. Human nature causes us often to hire people that look like us, believe like us, think like us, and what we know is diverse workforces. Not only do we make more money, so when C-suites are diverse, they're 20% more profitable. We know that employees want a diverse workforce. So what I try to do is, clearly you need to do the right thing.'cause if you get sued, you're gonna lose a lot of money. It impacts your reputation. You should also wanna do the right thing. But it's also great for business. So it's strategic. All of those people that you are disenfranchising by not having an accessible workplace, a ramp a bus or a website. Those are, people with disabilities buy stuff, we consume. Yeah. And but it is true. It's out there. And that's not every organization needs me and needs my services. Some are doing a great job. Someone needs something. It's a yes. They don't need process. Yeah. They don't need to have someone help them combat their potential bias that is ingrained in their workforce. And then others need me and they want me to come in because they recognize they're making poor decisions without good process.

Michael Cupps:

And what are some of those poor decisions? I'm just curious to see what the poor decision looks like so we know what the good picture looks like.

Rachel Shaw:

Yeah, the biggest issue is putting decisions before process. So I'll give you an example. So look, in some industries, this is not an issue. So I'm looking, and I work in a lot of industries where there might be high lead levels, right? Which is a part of a disability accommodation plan, or where there might be physical components to the job. So maybe there's lifting, pushing, pulling, standing. Think of frontline workers or warehouse workers, bus operators, custodians. And so what often happens is employers get information that is often insufficient. For example, a custodian has permanent work restrictions of no heavy lifting. Yeah. What I work and my programming works to combat is initially when an employer sees no heavy lifting, oftentimes what happens is their brain does what can they accommodate? A custodian who can't heavy lift their brain goes to No. And then their process is about confirming their no. So they don't get sued. And if they get sued, they win. And what I train employers to do is, what I want you to do is when you hear a word like heavy or you don't have any idea what that means. Be curious. Start with the premise of could it be Yes. And then use process to gather data to find out. And so it really is a shifting of what I think is a human tendency in a lot of organizations where when someone needs something that's out of the norm, there's an assumption or a belief either, either subconscious or consciously that it's gonna cost more. It's gonna impact customer experience, it's gonna impact cost, attendance. And so there's this sort of immediate brain work that goes to, no. What we need employers to do is, especially hr, you can't get everybody. Supervisors, managers, even some CEOs aren't gonna get there. But if you have a strong HR team that understands the job, we're gonna get to yes, if a yes exists. And if it doesn't, the process and programming is gonna help employers see that it's a no, but also help employees accept that. I get it. I get that. I can't be accommodated. My disability is too great for this job.

Michael Cupps:

And so is that what your consulting does, is you walk through these scenarios with HR and maybe CCFO type about changing their mindset or is it more about just being compliant when you get engaged?

Rachel Shaw:

So I get brought in and I work with HR teams. I call the HR team sort of the heart and soul of the organization, right? Because their job is, they get rules, they get regulations, programming, and they're supposed to implement. And so for example, let's say that custodian scenario where permanent work restriction, custodian and the supervisor or manager may think no, but HR does what's called an interactive process, which is one of the obligations under most disability laws. Internationally when you have, if they have laws, not all of them do. And that first obligation is to say, okay, we think it's a no, but we're trying to find a yes. So what is heavy? Is it five pounds with the right hand? Do we, is it unrestricted with the left hand? And when they're lifting, using both hands, can they lift up to 50? For example, that data allows HR to then work with the supervisor, the employee, and instead of using a power difference, I'm the supervisor. No, I'm the employee. I need a yes. And HR trying to wrangle these opinions. Instead, we're coming out with a data analysis. The job requires 50 pounds of lifting with the job description. The medical provider clarified they can lift 50 if they use both hands. We just found a yes based on data. And so that's the work I do now along the way, I train them, I create to create habits of curiosity, habits of programming so that they can then, can easily. Follow that process. So they're not trying to recreate the wheel every time, which causes, as 'cause it's part of your life's work, it, a lot of inefficiency, a lot of wasted time and energy and poorer outcomes.

Michael Cupps:

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I wanna get back to that but since you've mentioned your systems and your habits, which of course I do love, like you said I wanna get this right, the disability interactive process hallway. Did I get the name of the solution right? So tell us a little bit about that. It sounds like it's a system to help people think in a way that gets. Not just compliant, but open and inclusive.

Rachel Shaw:

Correct. Yes, it's a system that we train employers on and we help them to build it.'cause we believe that employers really need to insource this knowledge. You can use a hybrid model, you can have a third party leave programming or something software. But HR really needs to own the programming 'cause it's a human centric process, right? A human wants to talk to a human. Especially when it comes to things like someone who might be. Going through a temporary disability like cancer, or someone who might have a permanent disability such as a lost limb, or they've lost their eyesight, or they have permanent lifting restrictions. And basically it's a four step process. So when an employer is triggered to start an interactive process to start exploring accommodation the HR team or whoever's assigned to the work, typically we recommend it be a centralized person or persons, depending on the size of the organization. Some organizations have one person who also does payroll, and some organizations have thousands of people that do this for them. But that those folks will then go through a four step process. Step number one is gathering necessary data that allows us to move away from perception, belief. Bias, et cetera. And then step number two is communicating the data to the parties that need it and researching ideas. Step number three is scheduling and holding an accommodations meeting where we meet with and talk with the employee. And step number four is implementing that decision. And there's, along the way in my process, it essentially is four steps. Four pieces of paper and two key conversations with one meeting. That protocol, especially when you have permanent or long-term limitations or accommodation needs, not only does it help employers find the right answer, but it also helps employees understand and accept difficult outcomes, which lowers risk, lowers litigation, and also creates a better organizational culture because employees feel. Listen to under, they understand and they can then move forward. When unfortunately, employers cannot find a way to support a disabled person to keep working.

Michael Cupps:

Yeah, that's interesting. And I go back to I think her name was Mary McDonald, wrote a book about growth cultures versus genius cultures. And the lock that a genius culture puts on organizations. And what you just described is very much the opposite. The growth culture. Don't start with the answer in mind, but explore how to get there through data and openness until you find the solution that's gonna help your company grow. And you already said that, did, I think you said 20%. Diverse. Companies have outperformed by 20%, which is amazing, right? So you just talked about it, a framework that says, okay let's look at this problem is not a problem, but how we get there. And it, there may be a yes, there may be a no at the end of the road, but let's go there together with our eyes wide open. And that's awesome. That's right. And that's very much what what I see people do, and when I think about an individual is we tend to put these limits on ourselves, right? So maybe it's somebody that wants to start a new. Hit program and they're like, oh, I could never do that. And that's the first thing that comes in their mind. If we can get people to think a little more open, it may not be the right thing for 'em, but let's at least explore it, that kind of thing. And that's what I love about what you're doing. And is the hallway a method that you teach or is it a is it a program that the HR people go through?

Rachel Shaw:

So it's a method that we teach through training, and we have flowcharts and resources. We have templated letters and flow charts, and we have sample documents. So we teach them how to do all of it in house. There is some, you can replicate some of it, there's AI options and there's software options. But it is a, it is a human centered sort of focus because every process is. Not everyone with cancer has the same accommodation needs. Not everyone who has a back injury will need the same thing. Not everyone with lupus has a disability that affects them the same way. So what we're doing is we're creating structure, right? Yeah. The core process that they can, they know will get them. A good part of the way. And then we teach them the communication piece of the process to ensure that employees and applicants feel heard and they create understanding and knowledge along the way. You can't, I don't believe that you can fully you can't fully automize this for this part of hr. And so you can have a lot of it automated along the way to help you with time, but but it requires someone looking at another human who's in need. Yeah. And responding to that person as if that person is truly an equal partner in the process, which they are. Yeah.

Michael Cupps:

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And I'm curious to name the company by name, but is there an example that you went through that where it was night and day after they went through the process?

Rachel Shaw:

So one of the clients, and we actually read an article on it, although I didn't get their permission to say it, but it's a large transportation agency and if you Google it, you'll find it. They brought me in pre COVID, so it was probably 20 16, 20 17. They were averaging seven to $8 million. Of lawsuit loss every year. They were seeing, and this was an employer with 7,000 employees, and they were spending millions of dollars, not only to settle lawsuits, but millions of dollars to pay outside attorneys. And they had terrible relationships with their employees and their unions. Yeah. And they had me come in and do what I do, which is audit. Usually I know what I'm gonna find when you have that outcome. But what I found was they were relying on their power difference to make decisions. So a supervisor would get a medical note that said, no heavy lifting, and they would say, no, we can't accommodate. You're fired. And the problem with that is that sometimes that might've been the right answer, but they couldn't prove it. And so I came in and what I did was implement this four step hallway. All we could do from the beginning, because there was. So much volume was do step number one, which was gather better data. Now I've been there doing, I actually had one of their meetings this morning, so I have one more after you because I, they're one of the few clients I still support with some file management. Yeah. But, we have, they, they still have a high instance of injuries because of the type of work they do. But we went from having lawsuits to LA the last. 10. The last, what, eight years? They've had less than a half a million dollars of nuisance value over all of those years. Now you're gonna have some loss in cost, but they don't have lawsuits. And the reason I'm still there is because their unions want me there. They trust and believe that this process. Will support and they have an internal team that is very respected. They just want me to still be part of that because of the dynamicism of the organization. But talk about return on investment number one. Yes. They've saved over $50 million. Number two, they also have better employee employer relationships and effort. They're not wasting time and energy on litigation. They're focusing on the culture building ideas. Yeah. And their unions and their employees feel heard. Understood. And when it is a no, most of the time both parties come together and understand why we couldn't find a yes. And it doesn't feel like the employee's being harmed. They're understanding the unfortunate outcome of a personal or workers' compensation injury. Huge success. And again, I don't always have to stay with the clients that long, but, that's one of my biggest success stories. And so it's one that, I still stay in connection with.

Michael Cupps:

You should. And that's a, that's an incredible story. And it's good for other HR leaders to hear that. What is it complacency that gets'em into trouble like that the lawsuits and things like that? Or is it just not knowing?

Rachel Shaw:

I think it's really, it's not knowing. So I know from my personal experience, I. I really struggled to have someone, there was no one that knew how to do this stuff. And because normally what you get, most employers might get one to five accommodation matters a year that are hard, right? They, maybe they have someone with a wheelchair where they need to make sure there's a ramp or an accessible restroom. Yeah. Maybe they have someone who has a cane and so they have to be on a first floor. But it's pretty low volume. So the problem is, if you've never been trained. You don't have high volume, you never get very good at it. And who's usually training HR attorneys, which are great. I have many of them, but attorneys don't do the work. Yeah. And to know, the reason I'm so good at what I do Yeah. Is because I have done it for 26 years and the first 10 years I didn't do it so well and because I didn't really know how to do it. I was creating it and failing and trying again. Those employees I worked with for the first 10 years of my career, they didn't get the best of me. Yeah. But because I now have figured it out, and it's all I do, it's all I do, it's all my team does. And when I'm working with employers, I can easily, I can fix the knowledge gap, which is always huge. And as long as they're people who are willing. To try to be curious and open-minded and focus on yes, as long as they're good people, which everyone I work with, very rarely do I meet someone who's not a good person, who doesn't wanna do the right thing the right way. And so as long as I get someone who wants to do the right thing the right way, even if it's more brain, more mind than heart, I can get them to where their program is better. It feels better, and it feeds on itself, right? It's less. It's more effective, it's less time consuming. There's less waste, right? Habits build more efficient systems. And so as they build those habits by practicing and doing and getting the positive feedback loop, then it becomes really solidified in their organization.

Michael Cupps:

Yeah. And that's fantastic. And that's what habit building is all about, whether it's policy systems, et cetera. What I have to, I wanna, I've got another question for you, but I wanted to go back to something you've mentioned cancer several times. And it's interesting 'cause I, I guess it's about 12 years ago I was diagnosed with stage three cancer. And it's interesting because what don't look back at the company that they did or didn't do anything right or wrong. What they did is just gave me space. They just said. Go take care of yourself. If you wanna be in, if you don't wanna be in, don't be in and stay connected. And I did, but I don't know if that's good or bad or indifferent. How should a cancer patient, the first thing that hurts is the diagnosis.'cause you don't know there's uncertainty. And then you have to go through those cycles of whatever treatment plan there is. So I didn't even think about cancer being a disability in that, in the context of what we're talking about.

Rachel Shaw:

So a lot of what I work with is temporary disabilities. So look you were diagnosed you went through treatment with the absolute belief and knowledge. And now the evidence that you would heal from it, you would fully recover, right? And so some employers do what yours did, which I would say they don't need more, because what they did was they made you feel safe. Your job is good, you go focus on your recovery. We got you your pay. Space not gonna change. Part of that may be because of the industry you are in. Yeah. Maybe the white collar versus blue collar. And so a lot of what I work with are folks where they don't have that. It's, again, I'm not in every industry, but in the industries I work in, HR needs to understand.'cause here's the thing, most employers. I know this is changing, but for a lot of employers, they're gonna get the best years of an employee's life when they're healthier. I always say when their knees work and their back doesn't hurt, they're gonna get their best years. And if you're gonna employ someone more than 10 or 15 years, you're gonna also need to understand that you have to allow that person to live their life. Maybe a happy things like babies or weddings, maybe sad things like. Their parents, dying or maybe they will have a medical condition or their children will have a medical condition and employers need to be patient. And what happens is sometimes some employers forget, we got 14 years of perfect Michael, and now they're being asked to maybe get a little less production. Maybe you're on leave a little more than your 12 weeks of federal protected leave. Or maybe you're not, you're not as present or they're concerned that you're gonna need longer to recover because someone's aunt had cancer treatment for four years. And that's where I come in through process, through HR owning a consistently applied process. That's where we come in and we make sure that the organization, if a, in a perfect world, when there's all this emotion and employers maybe not wanting to do the right thing, which is more common than your experience we calm that. Yeah, with good solid process and communication. So the employee feels what you felt. Now, I would doubt it, but it's possible. There were conversations, is Michael gonna recover? Is he gonna do his job? Or we're paying him all this money. But you never heard that or felt that, and that's what a good interactive process does. And again, it's temporary. So if you hadn't recovered after a year and a half, then maybe there would've been different conversations. But that's what we do on the temporary, when someone has temporary restrictions, is ensure that there's also process. In that case, there's typically, one conversation, one piece of paper, and no meetings because we are doing more informal. We got you. Yeah. And then if it gets to a point where you're not getting better or you're out, someone's out for 12 months or eight months, then we can have a more formal conversation. But creating safety so you can focus on your recovery, that's a gift and that's a culture goal that I have for most of my employers I work with.

Michael Cupps:

Yeah. That's fantastic. And it's good to hear and I, yeah, it's absolutely just brought something to my mind about temporary things and that's, I did, I'd never even thought about that until I talked to you today. So let's talk about a leader, an HR leader. What does it look like to be an inclusive leader?

Rachel Shaw:

I think the first thing is leaders are gonna be what they are. Right now the majority of our C-suites look like in a certain way and it doesn't look like me. And it doesn't look like someone typically in a wheelchair. And so an inclusive leader, really understanding that there's value in the perspective. So something as simple as I had a client who they kept getting, being asked for. Physical accommodations. It was an in-person workplace. And after they had built the building they had to revamp it all. They had to change spaces between cubicles. They had to change the kitchen layout because people with mobility issues weren't able to access the common spaces or even use some of the restrooms. Silly stuff. A truly inclusive leader understands that it, before we build something, let's make sure that we have a person, let's make sure we have some perspectives of people who are gonna be living in this space, disability, or not disability. And so I have a client who did the complete opposite when they built their kitchens on each floor for their in-office workers. They made sure that the, that they had two employees that were in wheelchairs. Those employees were at the table. They were on the Zoom meetings. Yep. And so when they put in something as simple as. A microwave. It was an under counter microwave look, I'm six foot two. I do not have mobility limitations. It would not occur to me that a microwave that's above maybe a, a stove top or a counter would be an issue. Yep. But I'll tell you, who knows that it's gonna be an issue. So by putting it there, they don't have to accommodate someone anymore because they've created an accommodated space. It's little things like that where you create. This belief that you're important. And so in the future, that employee feels more comfortable going to their supervisor or their boss and saying, look, this is not working for me. Let me help you figure out how to fix it. So it's the idea that they're important and they matter instead of we're trying to, we're gonna do it our way. And then if you make us we'll retrofit instead of let's just create more inclusive workplaces when possible. It's not always possible. But if things like facilities is very possible.

Michael Cupps:

Yeah. Yeah. And so what is the responsibility, and maybe it's not a responsibility, but a good best practice for communicating it to the rest of your organization, not necessarily the people that may have a disability, but everybody else. What's what kind of best practice is that?

Rachel Shaw:

Yeah. I think employers need to make sure that it's all culture aligned. So again, if you're a culture where everyone gets accommodated, like where you probably worked, where you need something, you got it, then I think the communication is simply, if you can see it, if you know it exists pe people, even CEOs, put putting a post up it, if it's National Disability month or if it's mental health awareness month, even some things like that. But in the physical workplace, having people who represent your workforce at the table in committees asking questions and listening and allowing that perspective to be valued I think that is all really important for organizations that have a high culture of. Injuries leave needs or disabilities where they are managing what can be very difficult. There are not, when you get on a bus, a public bus, you need to have a bus driver that can safely drive a bus if they can't Yeah. That'll affect your ability to get to work. And so there are industries where it can be more challenging or the volume of requests is so high that. HR professionals feel completely overwhelmed. And so in those agencies, we definitely need to do training. I would love to believe this, Michael, but I don't believe I can change everyone's heart. I can. I cannot change how some people. View. And so what I need to do is make sure in organizations with high volume and need is that they have a very strong, empowered HR team that does disability accommodation who feels protected because their job is to push back against. Preferences. Bias, belief. Yeah. Or assumptions that are guiding decisions in a lot of organizations. And if HR feels safe and supported and resourced, they're gonna make sure that it's efficient, that we're saying yes when it's yes no, when it's no. And we're gonna reduce litigation risks across the organization.

Michael Cupps:

Yeah. That's amazing. And it's amazing. And you mentioned mental health, there is there provisions in a DA for mental health and how did those get identified? Is it pretty well outlined or, because. People go through depression that maybe a new mother goes through postpartum? So how does that work in the workplace?

Rachel Shaw:

Yeah, so in all the main countries that have Americans with disabilities so whether it's Canada, America and Europe, all of those laws. Provide protections for people with disabilities. Those are physical disabilities. Those are mental disabilities. So everything from depression, anxiety, even neurodiversity, although I think a lot of neurodiversity is a superpower and not a disability, but there are some, some folks that are on the spectrum who may have accommodation needs in the workplace and will request that. And so essentially what, almost everyone has some form of disability. I wear glasses, I just don't need them for my near sighting. You have a disability, but it's not disabling. And under most of these laws that we manage in workplaces, we look at if the employee is asking for help saying, Hey, I'm not meeting a performance, attendance, or safety issue because of a disability, mental, physical, psychological, the employer needs to then react if they get a medical note or if they can see it. And so when they're triggered. Then they start this process to really determine, okay, how does your disability affect you? You say you have a psychological disability and that stress is impacting your ability to meet deadlines. Then we work through my protocol. We would work with their healthcare provider, their psychologist, their therapist, their psychiatrist, to get some information on, okay, what does that mean and how do we litig. Yeah. Disabled people don't have less obligations. They don't have a better workplace, right? They just shouldn't have a worse one, right? So disabled people have the same expectations, not as non-disabled people. The difference is, Michael, if you're not, if you're not meeting deadlines and you're not communicating them, and it's just because. You're not, then I can say, do it or you're gonna get fired and you'll change behavior because you can. But if the reason someone is not meeting performance, attendance or safety standards is a disability, then telling them to fix, it's not gonna work. We have to use the right tool. And the right tool is the, is a reasonable accommodation. And if it doesn't work, that person may not have a job. But it isn't because they didn't care, it's because maybe their disability couldn't be overcome.

Michael Cupps:

And I love the way you phrased that, what you said there is that they don't get a better workplace. They just get a workplace. That's fair. And you don't think about it that way. And I hope people don't say, get jealous of somebody getting a different treatment because they have a disability, because they probably don't want that treatment if they would probably prefer the alternative. So it's an interesting area of work that you're in. I could see where you get passionate about it because there's so much opportunity for the good, but there's also opportunity for bad. And you're lighting the way. So let me ask you a few personal questions if you don't mind. So yeah, what is one non-negotiable habit that Rachel has every day or every week?

Rachel Shaw:

I would say my non-negotiable habit is that I always lead with curiosity. I force myself, 'cause I am naturally a person who brain wants to just make decisions based on what. What meaning I'm taking from something. And so I practice curiosity. I practice Why?'cause that's not me. I'm not that person. I was a good, I was raised as a good Catholic girl who just accepts and my brain doesn't want to. And I would say that in my second kind of personal habit, besides a work habit, I get good sleep. I really believe in the power of sleep. I believe in sleep habits. Because my brain, what my brain has to do. To ensure that I don't impact a disabled person's ability to access employment fairly, my brain has to work. And I know that I simply can't have my brain firing on all cylinders if I'm not taking care of myself. So I get at least seven hours. I try to get eight, and that's hard. I'm a mom, and that's a challenge. And I've done very poorly over my life. But the last, I would say the last six years, I've done a really good job. And that will be something that's a non-negotiable for me, for my personal health.

Michael Cupps:

That's fantastic. I've been working in my sleep for two years, so I'm a little behind you, but it makes such a difference. It's actually, it's not a burden, but people, I could think turning off phones and stuff like that, just it, they feel exposed if they don't have their phone with them or something like that, especially our younger generations and getting a good night's sleep, there's nothing more rewarding than that, in my opinion. And the first one you mentioned, curiosity. That's, that is a big challenge for a lot of people. I love that. That's a, that's your habit because. If we could all just pause just a moment before we jump to a conclusion or before we spout out the answer, and we started this conversation about, people are getting to the answer and trying to justify their answer and you just open that up by saying, let's be curious about this first. That's awesome. That's awesome. So how do people find you or find Shaw hr?

Rachel Shaw:

Easiest way is my website, rachel shaw.com. So my name's super easy. I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, you can find me anywhere. But yeah, so I'm out and about, so I'd love to connect.

Michael Cupps:

That's awesome. And my last question for you is just something I've been playing with the last three or four episodes and I was toying around with this concept that tomorrow's more important than yesterday. Yeah. And some people get hung up on the I importance. Some don't. But I, what I really think about is if that's your mentality, then what you do today is gonna impact tomorrow, right? So you're gonna have a better tomorrow. So what, do you have any perspective on that statement? Or is there something that you live by that says that I'm gonna make tomorrow better by what I do today?

Rachel Shaw:

I actually love that. And I've heard that in some of your other episodes. And here's what I will say is I think it's super important.'cause here's what I know, it doesn't matter if you have a PhD, an md, or any other education. HR is experience-based learning. And if you are trying to do good work, you will fail. And if you are so afraid that you past failures are gonna dictate your future failures, you're gonna be afraid to act. And so what I always say is if you lead with the right intention. And the and you do your preparation and you intend to do what's right and you mess up. Tomorrow's gonna be awesome. Tomorrow's gonna be better. And just think how many tomorrows you get. But I really believe in that. I think we need to be, we can't be afraid to try to fail, to learn, to grow and to move forward. And you look many of us. I call it the pillow test, right? We go to bed at night, put our head in a pillow, and we just wanna go over every mistake we made that day, or everything we wish we did different. I wish I hadn't eaten, a cupcake for breakfast, whatever. And I think practicing. What can I learn from it and then turning it off and focusing on what's tomorrow? How's tomorrow gonna be better? Yeah. I do think, Michael, that's really powerful for a lot of reasons and all the reasons that, time Bandit talks about as well, and the importance of habits and moving forward and letting the, no, not letting the noise. Distract you from performance.

Michael Cupps:

Yeah, those are great. Great. I appreciate that guidance. That's awesome. Perspective as well. And to be honest with you, I knew where that answer was gonna be because of the way you talked about everything. I and I appreciate that. And so thank you so much for joining us, Rachel. It was been great talking to you. I wish you best of luck. Help every company out there if you can because they all need it. And it will make everybody more productive. So thank you so much.

Rachel Shaw:

Thank you. It's great to be here today and you're got a wonderful podcast. I can't, I enjoy it every week.

Michael Cupps:

Oh good. We'll help you back then. So for everybody watching, please do go by YouTube or Spotify, wherever you watch your podcast and make sure you've, you like it, follow it, whatever the mechanism is on your podcast platform, and send it to a friend so they can start watching. And as well, thanks everybody and we'll see you next time.

Head Shot

Michael Cupps

Host
Head Shot

Reem Metawei

Co-host
Head Shot

Rachel Shaw

Guest