THA S02 EP#25 - The Habit Brain: Leading Through Doubt, Momentum, and Curiosity

Habits rarely fall apart because people do not care. More often, they break down in the space between intention and interruption where doubt gets louder, momentum fades, and progress starts feeling harder than it did at the beginning.

In this episode of The Habit Architect, host Michael Cupps talks with Jennifer Pinter, a customer success strategist who works with seed to Series A SaaS founders, helping them diagnose customer journey gaps, improve onboarding, and build stronger paths to retention and revenue. Jennifer brings a neuroscience-informed perspective to the conversation, especially around what she calls the voice of doubt that inner critic that tends to show up whenever we try something new, uncomfortable, or uncertain. 

Jennifer explains that the voice of doubt often sounds logical, which is exactly why it can be so convincing. Whether someone is trying to build a personal habit, return to a workout routine, or lead a company through change, the same mental pattern shows up: “You’re not ready,” “You can’t do this,” or “This probably won’t work.” She and Michael unpack how negativity bias shapes that response, why curiosity is such an important counterweight, and how new experiences can help train the brain to stay open instead of defaulting to self-protection. 

The conversation also connects those personal patterns to business performance. Jennifer shares how early-stage SaaS companies often celebrate the sale without fully building the systems needed for long-term customer value. She walks through the importance of continuous discovery, quick wins, strong handoffs from sales to customer success, and creating an operating rhythm that does not rely on one heroic team member to carry the customer relationship. For Jennifer, sustainable growth comes from the same place as sustainable habits: consistency, intentionality, and a structure that makes progress easier to repeat. 

This episode is for founders building customer success systems in fast-moving companies, leaders trying to improve retention and expansion revenue, and anyone who has ever started a habit with excitement only to hear doubt get louder once the work became uncomfortable. It is a grounded conversation about momentum, mindset, and what it takes to keep moving forward when certainty is nowhere to be found.

This Show is sponsored by TimeBandit.io

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Transcript

Good morning and welcome to the Habit Architect. This is Michael Kin, and I'm really excited about our guest today because it's real, it hits on a to topic that we've covered multiple times on the Habit Architect and in the book Time Bandit. But we haven't. Really talked about it in the way that Jennifer's going to share with us today. Cupps: 0:23

And let's start with the concept. It's the voice of doubt and what happens when we start habits, we are really enthusiastic. We get going and then something gets in the way. Scheduling conflicts whatever, all these things happen. We've talked about quitter day after New Year's resolutions. Cupps: And so there's a lot of things that go on, not only in your physical, but your mental state when you're trying to build or break habits, and I'm really excited to have Jennifer join us to talk about her perspective on this, both for individuals as well as businesses that are looking at important metrics of their business and how they can become. Cupps: Better situated to, to serve their customers. Let's, that's about it. But I do wanna mention do go to time ban.io. Go download the training that we have or the mobile app. And it

just allows you to keep track and learn how to tie your habits with your values. And that's a sticking point. Cupps: Just do go to time, bennett.io. So let's bring on Jennifer if we could, and I'm really excited to, to have her introduce herself because I didn't want to miss all the great things about her. Her you've got your personal business, you've got, the stuff you do with your neuro neuroscience. Cupps: So I'll let you, Jennifer, introduce yourself. Jennifer: 1:23

Hi. Thanks Michael. Thanks for having me on today. Super excited about this conversation. So I work with founders and CEOs SaaS startups, and I love working with Seed to Series A so early in their journey. I help them diagnose problems with their customer journey. Jennifer: So often there are gaps in how customers are experiencing our product and our onboarding, and I'm able to go, come in, diagnose those problems and make suggestions. I also like to coach junior CSMs and account managers on how to drive

strategic revenue growth, and I can lead fractionally for those early stage companies. Cupps: Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, I the coaching of the, it's interesting because there is a science to account management, but there's also somewhat of an art because we see the ones that really do have that strong loyalty and retention as well as the they're growing their business and others, what, companies falter at that, maybe because it's a part-time job for 'em or something like that. Cupps: When they think about customer success, Jennifer: 2:23

yeah, and I think in a early stage company we're focused on supporting the customer. We're thinking about all the moving parts, answering support questions, onboarding and implementing them. And some of that strategic stuff falls to the wayside 'cause we're drowning in all the other logistics of onboarding and making a customer successful. Jennifer: And so it's nice to get an outside perspective of. Where are we, where are the gaps in this process? Cupps: Yeah. I jumped right in there, but let's back up a little bit and talk, 'cause you've got a bit of neuroscience in your, the way you approach your business. And probably life, imagine. Cupps: 'cause

you don't separate those two. But so let's start Yeah. I was fascinated by the concept of voice of doubt that you mentioned on your website. Can you, let's just start with that. What is voice of doubt? Jennifer: So the voice of doubt is that pesky little inner critic that shows up whenever we're about to do something new. Jennifer: 3:23

Maybe something challenging and it probably shows up in a different way for every person. It could say things like, you're not ready, or, you can't do this. Who do you think you are? And it sometimes is referred to as imposter syndrome. It tends to sound very logical. Yeah, it sounds convincing. Jennifer: And if we're not careful, it can really run. It can be in the driver's seat. Cupps: Yeah. Yeah. And that could, that, that approaches us every day in things we do. But particularly I think when we decide that we want to change something, right? Whether it's our health or our our work, et cetera, that voice of doubt pops up quite a bit. Cupps: Then when you're really thinking about

getting outside your normal day and doing something different, that's when it really pops up. Is that right? Jennifer: Yeah. Our brains are evolutionarily designed to keep us safe, right? And it's just a survival mechanism that we're able to really notice threats or risks much more than we're able to notice the positives, right? Jennifer: 4:23

And so it takes a lot of intentionality to take a step back and focus and say. Okay. What if something else could be true when we're trying something new? And staying open and curious about that instead of letting that negativity bias really run the show in our brains. Cupps: Yeah. Yeah. We, before we jumped on and went live today, we were talking about workouts. Cupps: And I often see that because the way when I work at it go into this facility and it's this small group and there's a monitor of the things you're gonna be doing today, and there's somebody kind of illustrating it and. There's a lot of times I look at that and go, what in the heck are we gonna be doing today? Cupps: And there's

no way I could do that. But then you do it right? But it's, but you're that, that, that thing, the first thing that pops into my mind is, wow, I don't, I can't do that. It's, is that what you're, what we're talking about here? Jennifer: Yeah. It's, it is a little bit of a muscle in the brain that we're trying to build that allows us to take a step back and think about the possibilities. And I think one, I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Dyer? Cupps: No. Jennifer: 5:23

He, the, it's. It's this mindset that you have to constantly practice having a mind that is open to everything and attached to nothing. Jennifer: So it's unattaching from this certainty that you know, you can't do something that you haven't even tried. Cupps: Yeah. How do we practice that? How do we get that open mindfulness that, is there, do you do this, do you have a daily practice that you do it or is it situational? Jennifer: Yeah, I do. I do. And I. Jennifer: I purposely seek out new experiences because I think

that's the best way for me to challenge that muscle and challenge that knowledge that I have inside of me, or that bias I have that confirmation and negativity bias, right? That we're looking for the risk and we're looking for the threats, or we're looking for how we don't stack up. Jennifer: 6:23

You have to actually train yourself to not, to look for the other stuff, to look for the positives, to look for the new experiences. Yeah, and I've heard a study about this as we get older, we get more set in our ways and we have to be more intentional about. Trying to experience new things. Jennifer: So every year I try something new. My husband and I took an improv class that was like, wow, we decided let's try something totally uncomfortable. And we took an improv class, right? It's like, how do you expose yourself to new experiences and new opportunities to keep your mind open? Cupps: That's fantastic. Cupps: I've

threatened to with Catherine to go to ballroom dancing and that was the good adventure for it. By the way, we have Gail that said yes and with an exclamation point, so you said something she really likes. So that, that's fantastic. So challenging ourselves to do something new. I think, we just recently we've talked about New Year's resolutions on this show because everybody comes out and they have this New Year's resolution. Cupps: 7:23

Then there's this. Unfortunate magical day called quitter's day. When by, by which most people have stopped. So I think convincing yourself to do something new is one thing. How do you keep that in practice? Because a lot of times when we try something new, we're not very good at it at first. Cupps: And we may not be very good at it the second or third or fourth time, but over time we get better. So how do you encourage people to stay with it? Jennifer: Yeah, that's. Everyone's a little different. I was talking to a founder recently about this idea of momentum and when we have momentum things are easy and when we lose momentum. Jennifer: It's

hard to get back on track. And I think about this with new daily habits and I'm really curious, Michael what your thought thoughts are on this. But I feel if I practice it daily and I'm okay with showing up without expectations in being new at something, it's much easier on me. Jennifer: It's okay, I'm learning this. It's gonna feel uncomfortable, and that's okay. And you show up anyway, right? Cupps: Yes. Yeah. Jennifer: 8:23

But when we're developing a new habit, it takes a lot of muscle memory and repetition and reps to build that into. Into our, like what we do and who we are and part of our identity. Jennifer: Yeah. So I think about it in the way of if I go on vacation and I have this new workout habit that I've committed to, Cupps: yes. Jennifer: How does it stop when I'm on vacation? Then when I get back, how do I get that momentum back? So I think

it's really important for people to understand their personal style and what helps them get their momentum back. Jennifer: 'cause there will be interruptions in life, right? Cupps: Of course, yes. There you're absolutely right. And what I would say is that. Don't look for perfection. And it's the people that wanna do it perfectly, and they get highly motivated to do it perfectly, that really get the most discouraged because, but what it's really about is consistency and persistence, in just that effort. Cupps: 9:23

I, I've talked to many people about just habits. They wanna do it. And if you think about somebody that runs a marathon, is it's. Easy example, so I'll use it again. But you don't run a marathon on day one, right? You start with certain distances and over time you're building up and you're building that muscle. Cupps: And even if it's mentally, whatever the habit is, you've gotta build up to it. And before you can actually perform at the level that you aspire to perform. And don't beat yourself up if you miss a day. I think it's important for people to realize. That it's just about getting back doing, it's not, it's again, it's perfection is ruins a lot of people's

habits, I think, when they think it's gotta be this perfect way. Jennifer: Yeah, 100%. And I, that's that whole idea of being unattached to the outcome and the certainty, right? Cupps: Yeah. Jennifer: And then when we're thinking about negativity bias. And how we might be criticizing ourselves or criticizing how good we are at something when we're trying something new that can really get in the way. Jennifer: And it doesn't mean that we're naturally pessimists. We just have to understand where we're showing up and how that voice is showing up. Cupps: 10:23

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I like that. And we had a guest on, I don't remember if it was last week or the week before that was talking about making space for that new. Cupps: Thing that you're doing. And a lot of people don't do that as well. They can say, I want to. Up running, or I want to, I wanna do something. And they don't make the appropriate space and they cram their schedule together and they're just now trying to fit everything in there. So I'm curious if you've got, because when that voice of doubt hits, you've gotta take a moment, right? Cupps: And you've gotta you, what we're doing, building that muscle memory, say,

yes, it's okay to step forward and to do this. Do you have any recommendations on that? How do you organize yourself to be successful? Jennifer: Yeah. We talk about this with CS teams a lot. I talk about this with leaders a lot. Jennifer: 11:23

When you're in firefighting mode and you don't have a cadence or a rhythm to your day and to your process and you're trying to add something new in without being intentional and adding it into your schedule, it's gonna always get pushed aside. When we're running 10, like running really fast and going from one thing to another, we don't have the time to pause and reflect and think about the new thing, the new habit that we're trying to do. Jennifer: So my recommendation is build it into your calendar. Make it a priority until it's a habit. Once it becomes a habit, it's your nature and it becomes part of what you do in your regular routine. The

other thing that's really helpful for me is to think about the way dopamine works and how rewards can really help us stay focused. Cupps: Yes. Jennifer: If you're, I we'll use working out as a great example, but if you're working out and you're not seeing progress in whatever your goal is. It's not gonna help you stay motivated. And so when we're looking at customer journeys, for example, when I'm looking at customer journeys with founders what is the reward to the customer? Jennifer: 12:23

What's the win? The quickest win that you can engineer and articulate back to them, that's gonna get them excited. Because change is hard. Cupps: Yeah, Jennifer: is hard. Personally, change is hard. Switching platforms, change is hard. When we're changing things around in our team we need those wins. We need those dopamine quick hits of. Jennifer: This is working and I'm gonna keep going because I'm seeing some kind of progress. Cupps: And by the way, there's been another comment or two about

Yes, indeed. And then one, it's about no one thought you could run a six, six or five minute mile or a four minute mile until someone did it, which I think I think that's an, that's a good point because you're not gonna run the four minute mile the first day either. Cupps: It's somebody that ran that first four minute mile, put a lot of work and effort into a habit to get 'em there. It's. That, that, that was that thing that we were talking about earlier. It's just perfection. Don't it's we have an image in our head what we want to be, but it doesn't mean you're gonna get there tomorrow. Jennifer: Correct. Cupps: 13:23

But stick with it and you will. So you talk about the customer journey and customers. I think this is fascinating because when you think about startups, when I think about startups, you mentioned that you focus on seed to series A and that there's a lot of chaos. Cupps: Coming at at that point, right? And so they're trying to build a business. And in order to build a business, sometimes you need to put in systems. And I'm not talking about ER systems, I'm talking about systems, how you operate. But there's a lot of chaos comes at 'em, right? They're trying to raise money, they're trying to find new customers, they're making sure the product works. Cupps: There's a lot going in there. So how do you help them

with that chaos? Jennifer: Yeah, I think, having an outside perspective and someone to come in and look at what you're doing and how you're doing it, and provide an unfiltered object, objective view of what you're doing can be really helpful. Jennifer: 14:23

One of the founders I'm working with right now, he says, he's great at the product part. He's great at selling his business. He is. Where he's struggling is with finding the time to really evaluate the customer journey post-sale. And that's not his area of expertise. His area is building and running the business. Jennifer: And when you're in a small startup like that you often don't. Have the funds or the ability, or even the need to hire a full-time VP of Cs, right? So having someone come in fractionally or outsider to evaluate and help guide you can be really helpful. Just like at the gym, we both work with trainers, right? Jennifer: And

these small things. Like I know how to lift weights, I know how to move my body, but having someone help keep me accountable and on track so that I'm making progress. Like my trainer on Monday, she said, I think you can go up and wait on this exercise. We're in E four doing this. Jennifer: I said, okay. I was. Taking the easy route and she recognized it. So having that outside perspective can be really helpful. Cupps: 15:23

Yeah. And just about everything we do, I think you're right there that you, you said something interesting in that about the founder you're working with now that I think you said that they were really good at products. Cupps: They really understood that and selling the product. And I think a lot of companies are like that. Once the product sells, that's the measure of success in, in, and I'm just using this word, I'm not saying that. Founders thinks this way, but that's the measure of success. How much sales did you have? Or how much is your revenue? But the reality is that's just the start almost of the, that journey because that customer could be and certainly in the way that tech companies use subscription revenue, that, that's a, that's an

interesting milestone to think about. If you're a builder of a product and then you sell it, that's the win, right? Cupps: But there's more. Jennifer: There's so much more. And depending on how much it costs you. In time and funds to acquire a new customer. Your CAC payback period, your customer acquisition cost payback period could be three years. Cupps: Yeah. Jennifer: If you have a one year contract and that customer doesn't stay past the one year contract. Cupps: Yeah. Jennifer: 16:23

And now they leave, not only do you have to fill that gap, but you have to bring on more customers because you didn't get your payback from that single customer. Jennifer: And I hate talking about it in that way because it's also. More about did we provide value to the client? Cupps: Yeah. Jennifer: What was the client experience? Jennifer: And when we focus on providing value to the customer, our business expands naturally. And so it's. What is valuable to the client? What's, what helps them get success

from our product or our service? And when we focus on that, we focus on continuing to deliver that. Because it's okay, the SOW sign, they adopted our, they came onto our product or service, we're all done. Yeah, Jennifer: They're hunky dory. No, things are changing rapidly, especially with ai. Their business is changing, their needs are changing. And. Eventually they're gonna forget how painful it was before they came to us. Cupps: 17:23

Yeah exactly. That that, I think that is one of the biggest things is if they feel like that overconfidence, that they could do it without you. Cupps: So I, I was actually I've got a big customer who sells the health insurance. And they, in particular, they sell Medicare Advantage supplements to Medicare. Members. I don't know if that's the right word, but and, but while I was talking with one of the executives just two weeks ago and he said it was great, we had a record year. Cupps: We've got more new Medicare Advantage. Customers than we have in pre previous years. And now the job really starts because they don't make any profit until one and a half years into it. So meaning

they have to subscribe again next year and then half of that year before they even make any profit on one of those sub subscribers. Cupps: And that's not some of your customers you were talking about with what that customer acquisition cost is up there. So now we've gotta get that long-term value back, Adam. So what do you how would you go about. Helping us start up with that? What's the mechanism? Is it understanding usability of the product? Cupps: 18:23

Is it understanding that, I know you do the customer journey, but where's the magic in it, Jennifer: yeah. It is being in continuous discovery mode with your customer. Cupps: Ah. Jennifer: And so that means that we're not operating on assumptions. Their buying reasons when they signed in 2024 are probably different than what they need today in 2026. Jennifer: And we have to continue to understand how we're providing value and evolving. And I think just like humans in our daily lives, I. W we need to know that we're

on the right track. We need signs. We need that dopamine that I was talking about, that we're moving in the right direction. Because that negativity bias is so strong for every negative experience. Jennifer: You need three positive ones to overcome that in your brain. Wow. Yeah. I think that's the study I've that I read. Cupps: Yeah. Jennifer: 19:23

And I actually had this experience the other night. What, I won't go off on a tangent, but if you think about you go on vacation. Everything's lovely, but then your experience coming home in the airport is awful. Jennifer: And then you talk about that for a few days, right? Cupps: Yeah. Jennifer: We have to intentionally focus on the positives and not assume that the customer knows that we're delivering that value because likely they're remembering any friction point far more than they're remembering the value. So we have to. Jennifer: Remind them and point not in an annoying way, but we have to be very intentional about making sure they understand that.

Cupps: Yeah. No, that's a fantastic point about the trip. I, you're right. People will, as how your trip was, they probably first say, oh, our flight was delayed and then this, and then, and not the, oh, we were sitting on a beautiful beach in this country. Cupps: You know that that's, and your customers will do that too. They will remember the last bad thing that happened versus just the 10 good things before that probably, right? Jennifer: 20:23

Yeah, exactly. And. I'm not sure I answered that question fully, but with SaaS companies and with founders, when I'm going in, I'm typically looking at what were the expectations set in the sales process. Jennifer: Did, was there a through line in the experience of what the client actually received in the handoff into cs? Did we meet and exceed their expectations? Did we orchestrate a quick win? Do we orchestrate the next win that was important. And are we continuous, continuously providing value? Jennifer: Sometimes there's gaps, right? And there it doesn't necessarily mean it's

product. It could be in the experience in another way. And so just being able to go in and diagnose that and then map out the best path to success is. What kind of what I focus on. Cupps: Yeah. And how do you, 'cause I worked in organizations that had they were called relationship managers, I think is what they were Oh yeah. Cupps: 21:23

Many different titles for it. But their job was to live with three to five customers through the year to help them u adopt the product, use it in the way that it's intended. Some of 'em were really natural at it and they were very good. Others were just checking boxes. So how do you. Cupps: How do you organizationally get that muscle memory into the organization? Say that it's not just about that you checked the next thing to do, but it's that the, 'cause I don't know how to describe it. I know one in relationship manager in particular, I just knew she was very good at it. Cupps: Yeah. How do you transfer those skills? Jennifer: Yeah. It needs to be the way the company operates, right? And so it needs to come from the top down.

Alex Raymond, one of the founders I'm working with, and we're hosting that workshop that I was talking about in April. We talk about it as a cadence and an operating rhythm for the entire organization. Jennifer: 22:23

And so yeah, a relationship manager has deep insight into what is going on in, in the customer's world, but how are they bubbling up that information? Into the executive leadership team within the organization, and how is the organization operationalizing the voice of the customer, right? And acting on that information. Jennifer: So you don't wanna be reliant on the heroics of one good, awesome rep, right? Because we know people change jobs. You actually need to have a cadence and a rhythm within your organization of how things are done. How you translate customer needs into where you're going within your product or within your services. Cupps:

Yeah, that makes sense. And there, from a, let's put our CFO hat on for a minute. Retaining customers is probably more important than having new customers. It some, maybe I shouldn't say more or less important, but. You've already got that customer and it's keeping them retained and, paying whatever your service fees are is, without that you're just down a treadmill. Jennifer: 23:23

Yeah. Expansion revenue is four times easier than closing a new logo. There's a lot of statistics on this. And if you're looking for an, if you're in a early C series, a. You're trying to get funding that VCs and they're looking at what is your net revenue retention? How much are you growing and expanding customers? Jennifer: How much are you retaining them? And not just retaining them, but that growth piece is really important on customers who aren't getting value and don't see a clear path to success and to growth are not gonna expand. Cupps: Yep. Yeah. So I'm curious why did you, why do you like working from C to

series A? Cupps: That's pretty early. What's your fascination with that area? Jennifer: I like small teams. I love the chaos. I love the ambiguity. We were talking of a little bit about curiosity and, there, there's a personality test from Sure people, and you can see how comfortable you are with certain things and how you operate. Jennifer: And I think it's a fascinating personality test. It's DISC or some of those other ones. Cupps: Yeah. Jennifer: 24:23

My uncertainty tolerance is really high. Cupps: Got it. Jennifer: And I think it's because I get to be really creative. I get to go in and say, okay, what is possible here to fix this problem? Started like one of my first jobs was in support, right in customer support and moved into implementation and project management. Jennifer: And then I went into consulting. And when I was in co consulting, I was coming into clean up projects that had gone terribly wrong. Cupps: Yep. Jennifer: I found I was really good at that.

Yeah. And so here I am working with startups. We're in the chaos and I love it. Cupps: It's a rescue mission almost, or, Jennifer: yeah. Cupps: Yeah. Cupps: 25:23

That's interesting. That's interesting. So are, is the is that stage, I'm curious, is the biggest or one of the biggest. Challenges that they, the we talked about earlier, they're, once they get the sale, they think, that's a mentality that like, whew. Good. And they're not focusing on how the customer is adopting it over time, or is it maybe that's too over generalized, but Jennifer: Yeah, it just, it depends. Jennifer: I think there's just so many moving parts and it's having the time and the, the knowledge of how to build that structure, that infrastructure that you need in order to keep driving that revenue, right? It takes a lot of thought and understanding of the customer and sometimes we're drowning and other things. Jennifer: And so it's like building the new habit, right? You gotta put it on your calendar. I've talked to so many different businesses and they say, oh, we wanna do a strategic account

plans. We want this many executive business reviews. And then at the end of the day, the CS team is drowning in tactical issues. Jennifer: So it's like, how do you shift from that mindset into the strategy of growing the account? And when you're in the early stages, oftentimes that is hard to focus on. Cupps: Yeah. Very good. That's great advice. And we're almost outta time by the way, someone said thank you Jennifer. Cupps: 26:23

Great share. So that's awesome. Thank you for that. I'm curious, I ask every guest this but I ask what's one habit that's non-negotiable for Jennifer every day or every week? Jennifer: Mine is definitely keeping myself healthy, and that includes movement. It doesn't matter if I'm on vacation, it doesn't matter. Jennifer: If I have a 8:00 AM podcast interview, I'm getting my workout in. Cupps: Yeah. Yes, exactly like you did this morning. Jennifer: Yes. Cupps: That's fantastic. But yeah I, movement is absolutely important to me as well. I'm just curious if you had one bit of advice to somebody that's

gonna start a new habit that's say this weekend and they got the voice of doubt. Cupps: What it would be your tactical do this while you, when you, when that doubt appears. Jennifer: Yeah. I tell mine to shut up. Cupps: There you go. I love your, I love Jennifer: to hear you. But yeah, I would say be easy on yourself and know what you have capacity for. I think a lot of times people try to do too much at one time. Jennifer: 27:23

There's a great doctor that talks about habit stacking and let's say you're really busy and you're getting your kids off to school. And you may, you're, you have five minutes in the morning when you're making coffee. He talks about just put your, a pair of dumbbells in your kitchen. Cupps: Yeah. Jennifer: And do some bicep curls while your coffee's making five minutes. Jennifer: That's something you can do every day. And now you've done a little bit of weight training, right? What small, incremental things that are possible Cupps: Yes. Jennifer: That you can. And then once you get it into your habit, you start building on it. Cupps: Yeah. Yep. I love it. I

love it. And one of my, one of my advices on, I think I've got a downloadable sheet that is give it a name, give and so when you're trying to break a habit, give it a ba, a name you don't like. Cupps: And like you just said, like you said, just go away. Just shut up. So they're awesome. Thank you. Just so much, Jennifer, for your insights and both the personal side of it as well as the business side of it. How many people find you what, how can if Jennifer: Oh yeah. Thanks for asking. So Jennifer pinter.com is my website. Jennifer: 28:23

I'm on LinkedIn and I have a couple things coming up in this spring. Actually, if you wanna catch me live, I'm running a webinar series in March. It kicks off next week. That's free. Also I'm running a paid workshop that is gonna be absolutely incredible on how to build that operating system for your customer success and account management teams. Jennifer: Within your organization. And that's gonna be April 8th and 15th I believe. And just hit me up on LinkedIn if you wanna join that. Cupps: That's abso I'm gonna refer a friend because I know that's what, that's the world they live in and I'm gonna refer