THA S02 EP#31 - Bold Plans Don't Build Themselves: The Execution Gap

Most leadership teams are pretty good at the big idea. They get in a room, whiteboard it, agree it's the right move, and then hand it off. What happens after that hand-off is where organizations quietly lose.

Leslie Holman has spent 15 years studying exactly that space. As the leader of Pinnacle Performance Group in Minneapolis, she works with companies ranging from $10 million to Fortune 100 on what she calls strategic execution: everything that lives between the bold plan and the moment John on the front line finally understands what's being asked of him. She came up through McKinsey, got her footing in quick-service restaurants where clarity in operations isn't optional when the stakes are a consistent hamburger or a food safety incident, and has brought that same precision into some of the most complex organizational transformations across industries.

In this episode, she and Michael dig into why great ideas die, how to diagnose your organization's capacity for change before you add one more initiative, and what it actually looks like to lead with humanity when the world outside the office starts bleeding through.

Leslie's take on the execution gap is practical and direct. Clarity, focus, and tenacity. Not motivation. Not culture decks. Not a project management tool. Those three things, built into the rhythm of how a team operates, are what separate organizations that get things done from the ones still talking about the plan they made two quarters ago.

They also get into AI adoption, what honest leadership looks like when the workforce is genuinely scared, and why Leslie's firm has a rule: they don't work with jerks.

If you are leading a team through any kind of change, building a habit around execution, or just trying to understand why your good ideas keep stalling out, this one is for you.

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Transcript

Hello, and welcome to The Habit Architect this morning. I am in a little booth in an airport, so the background looks a little different today than you're used to, which is good for a variety of the spice of life, right? So today I'm really excited to talk with Leslie if you saw the promotion for this podcast episode. Cupps: 0:23

There's an execution gap that we're gonna talk about. So people sit in meetings, they come up with bold plans, and then something happens and it doesn't get executed upon. We're gonna dig through that a little bit with Leslie and understand what is it organizationally about us as individuals, about us as teams that don't quite get some of these great bold plans out to into production. Cupps: And so we're gonna talk a little bit about that. I, and speaking of that it, sometimes it comes down to priorities. I mentioned last week that I was building a free app for a web app for a priority matrix. And it's my adaptation of the Eisenhower Matrix. If you use the mobile app you've seen it, but I wanted to make something available to anybody else. Cupps: And so it's a web-based app. If you're interested in getting access to

that I launched it this week. I haven't really advertised it. I'd like to see a few users on it before we go really into broader but it is a free tool and it it will help you with your priority management. Just drop us a note or I'll put a link into the chats of the podcast. Cupps: Without further ado, I wanna bring Leslie on so we can get to the topic today. It's a I think it's an important one for all businesses. Let's go ahead and bring Leslie on. Cupps: Oh, there, hello, Leslie. How are you today? Leslie Holman: Good morning, Michael. How are you doing? Cupps: 1:23

Good, doing good. Transitioning back to home from Atlanta. So it's it's always nice to have that feeling come in. Leslie Holman: Very good. Going home is always good. Cupps: Yes. And how's springtime in Minneapolis? Leslie Holman: Chilly. It was my, my toes were a little cold taking my new puppy out this morning in flip flops. Leslie Holman: It was a bad call, so I gotta get the boots back out by the back door. Cupps: That's funny, and a new puppy, too. I'm curious, I want you to introduce yourself and talk all about Pinnacle, but tell us, tell it ... why don't we start there and then tell us how you got there. Leslie Holman: Very good.

And so I will, I am a true believer in humanity as an important way to convey. Leslie Holman: So I'll tell you about Pinnacle and I'll tell you about myself first. I always start with who are you, how do you define your family and what do you do for fun? So you've already mentioned I live in Minneapolis. In addition to a business owner and leader that I'll spend today talking about, I am also considered myself a wife and m- a boy mom who loves to mountain bike and downhill ski. Leslie Holman: 2:23

So just a little context on who I am. Nice. But during the the majority of my day, I am also blessed to be the leader of a consulting firm Pinnacle Performance Group here in Minneapolis. And we have a unique place that we play that we've titled Strategic Execution. And the way we describe that is everything that falls between that pure strategy point to the final mile of getting John on the line to understand what is being asked of him in a change. Leslie Holman: And over the last 15 years, I've really been able to support the organization in developing that niche. And the way we've done

that is really understanding people and using people as the key to execute strategy. Cupps: Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. And by the way, I'm not sure what's going on in Minneapolis, but I think there are third guests in this, in the 12 months that we've, we, we've done, been doing it for more than 12 months, but you're our third guest from Minneapolis for some reason. Cupps: So that's good. Leslie Holman: Very good. That's a good streak. Cupps: 3:23

Yeah, exactly. So that's fantastic. And I love the way you introduce yourself because we normally say, "I'm Michael and I went to so- and-so school or I do the, you introduced kind of family first. And I think I saw a post that you had a while back that was talking about humanity and you led with that conversation. Cupps: What led you to that? What, do you see an absence of humanity in the workplace? Leslie Holman: I do. And I think we're trying to evolve, but I think as a broader society, we're trying to figure out how to make that work. I think, and I think COVID helped us advance it. But for so long, we were expected to be this box. Leslie Holman: Like life was on one side and professionalism was on the other side. And we were expected to show up at work like

nothing else was going on in the world around us. We had it all together, you leave it at the door, you come in and COVID kind of blew that all open that homeschool is going on behind you, you've got dogs barking and kids screaming. Leslie Holman: But I think we got that physically and seeing the world around us, but I think sometimes emotionally we don't understand the connections between people and spend that little extra time to understand each other and show up as whole individuals in the work context. Cupps: 4:23

Yeah, you said something there that I think I've, I, I've, as you can tell by the gray hair I've been around the business world for some time, but the, that leave it at the door. Cupps: I I couldn't tell you the number of times I've heard that, especially early in the career, right? As you're coming up, it was part of the culture to teach you that whatever was going on outside, you don't bring it in the walls and that's ... And you're right. That has crumbled down, I think, and COVID was a big element of it. Cupps: But I also think there's just some some well-run businesses that, that set good examples as well. Is that ... Do you see that in, in your

business? Leslie Holman: I do. I think it's quite a variety. I think so much of it is tied to organizational culture, Yeah. ... and a fear of doing things differently. Cupps: Yes. Cupps: Yeah, that's true. Let's talk about your your consulting business for a while, because I think it sets us up for talking about that execution gap. So who is an ideal customer? Why do they call you guys? What problems are you helping them with? Leslie Holman: So we we are unique in that we don't ha- say we work in a specific industry or for spec- Okay. Leslie Holman: 5:23

specific type of people. I guess this is where our cultural thread runs through. We work for good people. So that is our number one thing is looking for good humans. But it's really- Great. I love that. And working with organizations where people is a key part of the value chain. And so as we're thinking about the space between the shorthand is after you get the PowerPoint, then what do you do with it? Leslie Holman: So often people are what needs, are the connector in that space and so we are looking for organizations that are operationally oriented, people are a huge part of the value chain that are really

questioning, how do I take this idea or even well documented strategy and translate it off the paper or off the screen into the areas around us? Leslie Holman: And beneficially that's, that can span organizations. We've chosen to be flexible in our model that we work from companies of $10 million up to Fortune 100 organizations. Across a variety of industries, the key thing is really having people as a key part of the value chain. Cupps: That's, and that's fantastic. Cupps: 6:23

And it's interesting because when I think about what you're saying there there are no shortage of ideas a lot of times, right? You get into a meeting with your team, you get into a broader meeting or just two individuals talking, there's always a lot of ideas and re- realizing not every idea is the right idea, but it's an interesting thing culturally how ideas take it from that light bulb going on to where they decide that they wanna execute that. Cupps: So some companies have a very interesting innovation management plan, and that in their outputs because they're innovative companies, some maybe don't have a structured process, but do you start at that ideation into the

business or are you getting focused when it's execution time? Leslie Holman: We are getting focused when it's time to put pen to paper in terms of clarity. So I always say we- Okay. ... do not do peer strategy work, we do not do the ideation, we do not identify the white spaces but once an organization has that understanding, sometimes we do go in and help them clarify, okay we know where we wanna go, but we need to actually put pen to paper and write that down. Leslie Holman: And it can be all the way there through the final execution. Cupps: 7:23

Yeah. Yeah. That, that makes sense. And then, and what's interesting about it to me is I tended to work in small to medium-sized organizations, mostly software companies that were on a fast path to growth and there was different events along the way, seven exits, something like that, which is just insane, but the Cupps: I saw so many good ideas die and, and- Yeah. ... and it wasn't that people in the room didn't agree that it was a good idea, but just where you're talking about the clarity and then how to act on it is that sounds like that's where you guys really focus. So

why do I d- just maybe top three reasons why those ideas never made it to, to fruition? Leslie Holman: Sometimes they shouldn't, and I think that is a key point- Yeah. ... that not enough companies do is just, if it's a b- if you cho- try it, that doesn't work, kill it. So I would say it's not always a bad thing. Cupps: Okay. ... Leslie Holman: 8:23

but we talk about, in my background, I came from McKinsey and worked in the strategy pa- space and strategy is the sexy, glamorous thing where, you're getting the play to the board and the big ideas is what seems glamorous. Leslie Holman: And then the people who are thinking of those big ideas say, "Okay, I did all the hard work, just go do it. " And they turn it over. And I think it's the lack of empathy and understanding of the complexity of operations and the choices that are made in each and every layer of an organization, that really is often where those ideas fall down. Leslie Holman: And our organization a little change, we started out as a training firm in the restaurant business, in the quick service restaurant business. And I go to that

because it, I think it's a super interesting industry. If you have an industry where you could have thousands of outlets with turnover as 100% every year, and if you make the product wrong, you could kill people. Leslie Holman: 9:23

And yet, these organizations are making us hamburgers and coffee on a regular basis that's fairly consistent. And the reason that is, is absolute utter clarity in operational procedures. And it was that, some of that insight as we moved out of the restaurant retail space into these broader organizations that they get an idea and then they just say, "Go do it. Leslie Holman: Yeah. But they haven't spent the time to actually define what it is. And that is the place that we have seen is the big opportunity and it's hard and it's not fun and it's ticky tacky- Cupps: Yeah. ... Leslie Holman: but it has to be done for execution to happen. Cupps: And does a lot of this happen, this execution gap happen because the things are hard. Cupps: I've been a part of many conversations in the executive leadership team that say, "That's a good idea. Go do that. Mary

you're in charge. Go make that happen." And then Mary goes and tries to do the things and it's, "Oh, finance has an objection." Or maybe sales says, "Oh, that's never gonna work." Cupps: And it just doesn't catch on. How do you prevent that or what it, is there a starting point that's different that people need to think about? Leslie Holman: I think it's getting a common fact base. I, a background as an engineer, so every now and then that flares itself in my current work. Leslie Holman: 10:23

Of people will say, "That's not gonna work or this isn't gonna work." And one of the fir- key pla- tools that we like to use in that sort of place is let's get it on paper. What is it? So what, for example, we're working right now with a client doing, we have a huge process map that takes up a almost a whole wall of everyone would say, "We can't do this or this is this way and that way." Leslie Holman: And they talk past each other, but when you start to get facts on the table and you say, "Okay, what would have to be true to move, the order of these sequences or provide this information?" Sometimes it's just getting a clear fact base for us to have discussions around. Cupps: Yeah. And I'm we can talk about it a little later, but I, what I love

about that is that's true in all of us, right? Cupps: Even individually, if you say that you're going to become a marathoner and then you realize the amount of time that you can't just say, "I'm gonna be a marathoner and just go out for a run, right?" Yes. You gotta start planning your diet your training schedule, all these things, and that's exactly what you're saying as a team, you've gotta have that documented because only then can you really address each step in it, right? Leslie Holman: Absolutely. In addition to Cupps: that, I think- Leslie Holman: 11:23

Go ahead. Cupps: No, go ahead. Leslie Holman: I was gonna say- Sorry there was a little delay. ... is this this idea that I've done the hard thinking at the strategy level, so just do it is I think a lot in a lot of organizations culturally, it feels like that is less than work or it's obvious work. Leslie Holman: What happens then when you pass that down the chain is you really do have key strategic choices that are getting made very far away from the knowledge base. So if you don't clarify exactly what all those trade offs are, your frontline is gonna get things done, but at the

expense of what if you're not clear. Cupps: Ah, and so that's an interesting thing. How, because there is that just go do it, you got it, you're in charge, go do it, right? And is there a method that you guys that has a check, a check down list that says, "Hey, we wanna go do that, but we went and talked to the frontline and it turns out that here's the circumstances." Cupps: And it comes back to the leadership team to say, "You've got some, you've got some weighted decisions to make." Leslie Holman: 12:23

It is that it really is getting through that gait of getting the clarity and the facts to make choices. And that's where sometimes people are like, "Ugh, I don't wanna do this. Leslie Holman: Why, why are you making look at this? " And at some point, either you need to truly be comfortable empowering your organization to make the choices or you have to get into the details. Cupps: Yeah. And do you see a difference in, and I don't know if these are good examples. Let's say somebody decides they're gonna do a pricing change on that burger, right? Cupps: Or maybe it's it's a longer

transformation that somebody's gonna implement a, an AI platform to do X. Is the duration of the project or the mission of the idea how does that affect execution? Leslie Holman: 13:23

I would say significantly, I think it is execution is usually in change sometime or synonymous and I think one of the biggest challenges we see is not understanding an organization's capacity for change and thinking about not just what is the individual change I want to push, but viewing change from the end user and what is the collective of change coming at that end user right now and do they have, is your change the priority? Leslie Holman: Do they have capacity for one more? And really getting that end user perspective in our pr- opinion. Business results drive prioritization- Cupps: Yep. ... Leslie Holman: but ultimate execution success, we really have to think about the end user capacity as well. Cupps: Yeah. Yeah. And and by the way, if anybody's wants to ask the question of Leslie, please drop it in the comments or chat

section and we'll address them as they come in. Cupps: So Leslie, one of the you had a post not too long ago that was about p- humanity and putting, the human back into the companies and things like that. And while I do wanna get back to talking about the structural thing about execution, but I think that's a big thing that I don't wanna over- overstep. Cupps: So where does humanity show up in a good way and where would it not show up where it should be? Leslie Holman: 14:23

It's just bringing that up just brings so many emotions into me. So I think I posted that, as I said, I live in Minneapolis and during the IC here in January I think it was a very real thing as a leader to face that I had employees coming in who one of my employees' daughters was there for the murder of Renee Goode and witnessed the shooting and she ran towards the woman as she was dying in her car and having that mom come into my office and carry that burden, that's when you can't leave it at the door. Leslie Holman: Yeah. It, and I had a team meeting that

day and, we wanna talk about, "Oh, here's the projects that are in the pipeline." And we just had to stop- Cupps: Yeah. ... Leslie Holman: and say, this is crazy. This is nuts. People are terrified of letting their kids go to school." And I think it was a real reckoning as a leader of what is, what's the line of humanity. Leslie Holman: 15:23

And for me personally, I always try to be a, have a very apolitical point of view at work. Yeah. I'm like, "We can bring our whole selves. We can talk about everything, but we don't do politics, hard stop." And trying to have that conversation in a way that didn't feel political. And I actually had one of my employees come and k- give me some feedback and said, "You don't need to apologize. Leslie Holman: This isn't politics. These are, we're talking about our kids and our friends, and that's just hu- humanity." And I think for me, it was a push by my team to be bolder in maybe feeling what I felt was the margin for really recognizing what was going on around it and my role as a leader to create a space for our

team to, to fully show up with everything that they were carrying. Leslie Holman: Yeah. Cupps: And how does that ... i, and then there's a lot we could talk about there, especially in, internally, but what about externally? Your business is customer facing, right? You have people that are either training or documenting processes or whatever your, all your teams do in a customer scenario. Cupps: So what, how do you handle situations like that when you're customers? Leslie Holman: 16:23

It starts at the top. We work with good people. We have a rule I'll say it on here, we don't work with jerks and it's a hard and fast rule. And if people don't believe in the values that we believe as an organization, we don't work with them. Leslie Holman: We believe our rule is take care of yourself, take care of your family, do good work in that order, and we truly believe that if you're doing the first two things, you will do better work. But on the flip side, that also extends to our client teams. I had once where I had a client she was under a big deadline and she had two kids with COVID and she was just overwhelmed. Leslie Holman: And I said, "What do you have to get done tonight?" I called our team, we all sat online, we

cranked it out because those beliefs don't just extend to us, they extend to our clients. And I think that is the thing we've gotten feedback on is actually leading and creating a space where people can be human and can think about humanity that extends to them, just creates a different sort of team environment and really results in better work. Cupps: 17:23

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a good point. And you said something there that you don't work with jerks. I love that. And I think small businesses in particular maybe large businesses too they, there is a reason to fire your customer sometimes, right? If they're abusive, if they're just generally bring down the morale of the team because they're just being ugly about it, or it's just not a right market fit, right? Cupps: What you provide is not what they need and vice versa. And I, sometimes it's upon the vendor or the partner to say, "Hey, this isn't working for either party. So we need to stop, right?" But that's a hard thing to do, especially because you may have a CEO saying, "We've got to hit the numbers," and things like that. Cupps: So how do, how does a, an account team come to you

and say, "I'm having trouble with this customer." And how do you walk them through what may be a departure or maybe not, right? Leslie Holman: I would say we, I think we've only had one or two departures ever in our history. But oftentimes there, when there's a challenge, I think so much of it is it, you can start to explore with a couple rules. Leslie Holman: 18:23

One is assume everyone is acting with good intent. If we start by that gating rule, if we don't work with jerks, then we're assuming people are working with good intentions. I had a team recently was like, the client's not getting back to us, they're not getting us any feedback, they're not engaging and it's, and then we had to talk through is there, are they intentionally doing that to you or is there something else going on? Leslie Holman: In fact, there was something else going on that they were launching a huge initiative. And so then saying, "Okay, let's just call it out and say what it is. Like we can't be our best partner when we don't get engagement from you and you guys are busy." So we agreed to pause things for six weeks so that we could both come back and do it the right way. Leslie Holman: And I think that is also though, that means for us as an organization, we're deferring revenue but

knowing that's okay if it ends with the right answer that it's gonna pay back. Cupps: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's no, I love that because even personally, we never know what that person we're talking to is going through at that moment in time. Cupps: And we've been conditioned to leave it at the door, right? And so even in personal one-on-one conversations, sometimes you don't know what that person's going through. So that, I love that empathy a- approach to it. And th- that, that I like. And what, let me get back on track with some of the execution gap things. Cupps: 19:23

What are, so what are, if, because this is a habit architect, we talk about building good structure that allows a habit to be successful because a lot of times people, like we talked about that marathon example, maybe they're not in an environment that marathon is not in their cards right now. Maybe something else is important to, more important. Cupps: So as an organization, what are some of the key things that need to be in place to be known for executing against your strategic initiatives? Leslie Holman: I think clarity, focus and tenacity would be the three things I would say. So

clarity is s- a strategy might be, I'm gonna be a marathon runner. Leslie Holman: Clarity is knowing, how much you're gonna increase your mileage every week and when are you planning your long runs and having a plan, like you said structure is I'm gonna run every morning. So for organizations, if they're trying to implement a strategic plan, it's not just what's the big idea, but "Hey, here's how I'm gonna break it down. Leslie Holman: 20:23

Here's what I'm gonna do this quarter. Here's what I'm gonna do this month." And then having a way to report out and check in on that. And tenacity is that grit of this is not, we're not talking rocket science in most of the work we're doing, it's just sl- some of it's a slog. Yeah. And it's the recognition that- Cupps: Yeah. Leslie Holman: that is just a fact. And I think also the organizational celebration of not always we have, Yeah. ... not always p- giving the recognition to the people g- who did the bright, shiny ideas, but also recognizing the people who slogged through the hard execution details to get it done.

Cupps: Yes. Yeah. That's great. I love that framework. Cupps: I because the, there's so much applicability to it and it really it made me think, I don't know why, but the Apollo 13 concept, right? When they were at risk of losing some astronauts and they said, "Here's the objective," and then they worked back with clarity how they were gonna execute, right? Cupps: And that's ... Now maybe your project isn't as dramatic as that but to execute with that precision is really that, that can be done with anybody, right? Leslie Holman: 21:23

Yes, absolutely. It's just re- exactly. It's knowing exactly what you have to do and then figuring out how to work within those confines. Cupps: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So do you have a a- and you don't have to name the customer, do you have a customer story that's just, this is exactly how they went from doing it badly and then doing it really well that you can walk us through? Leslie Holman: I think a couple different ... We have a client that we've been working with for a couple years now came in with a new Leslie Holman: And I don't know if I would say they were doing it badly, but just had OptiEO new leadership team trying to bring a whole bunch of different businesses together

and they were trying to build the muscle around execution and being focused. Everyone was in this sense it was really at the strategic level, everyone was focused on fighting the fires and getting the work done, but how did they build that muscle around from a strategy perspective, growing and expanding? Leslie Holman: 22:23

And for them, it was first dedicating the time to all get on the same page. So it wasn't just about what are we gonna do, but really going back into bringing a dozen organizations together and first listening on what matters to each of them, and then coming together with a common vision for the future and objective that, that brought that history along. Leslie Holman: So setting a really strong foundation team was a key piece. Simply then it went clear on exactly what had happened and from a leadership team knowing exa- identifying those things. So again, this is a, somewhat of a strategic planning example. So I'm getting very clear, but I think when it

gets into the execution is it's the chunking it out and the following up. Leslie Holman: So as they went through their processes I skipped over launch. One of the key things is often, how do you communicate what you're trying to do at, to different people in their language? So they spend a lot of time on not just, this is what we wanna do, but how do we talk about it to each level and then really thinking about those r- rituals and routines. Leslie Holman: 23:23

So who's got the responsibility for figuring it out and how do they bring it together month after month, quarter after quarter to really get it done. And I think it is that, as you talk about habits, it is that ritual and consistency that gets you to results versus just having big aspirations. Cupps: Exactly. Exactly. And by the way, we've just got a comment and it, the, I'll read the comment to you because it's great. It says, "Love what you're doing, Leslie. Thanks for sharing." And that's from Bob Bauthi who's at who I know he is a founder of Dallas AI Organization, which is this phenomenal organization. Cupps: He's he and his partner have built

and they, and he's one of the best at executing how to train organizations on AI. And so I wanted to ask you about that somewhere in this conversation, maybe this is a good time to pitch since he, he offered up a comment to you but first, he loves what you're sharing and thanks for doing that. Cupps: So pat yourself on the back for that. And then the AI is here. It's all, it's everywhere. And I, what's interesting about it is you can read an article of fear, that it's gonna replace all white collar jobs and you can read an article that it's that it's scary because it steals your privacy or what have you. Cupps: 24:23

And there's all sorts of that. And there's also the good stories of it helped me do my job more efficiently. It helped the company achieve certain milestones because we were able to see things we couldn't see before. So there's, this is a, one of those shifts in, in business, right? There's good and there's bad and there's fear and there's anxiety about it. Cupps: How do you address something like that if somebody comes to you and says we know we need to implement this because we're gonna be better for it, but we've got an organization that's a little hesitant to adopt." Leslie Holman: For, first, if, and I, or, and we've worked

with many who are implementing AI solutions, is being really clear on the why and the WIFM people in the circles know WIFM is the what's in it for me. Leslie Holman: 25:23

So how do we craft story of why we're doing this and how does it impact and potentially benefit the people who are gonna be impacted by the change? And I think in that aspect, there is an element of honesty that's required. We do know that AI is changing the workforce and is gonna change how people's jobs are gonna happen. Leslie Holman: And I think there's a fine line for leaders on that topic to, to balance that the work is going to change and pe- but people are not gonna go away. And at least not all people, but I think in each leader situation, they need to be really transparent and honest as much as they can about the impact to their organization because honesty goes so much farther than fake good news. Cupps: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and you've said that you've been very consistent,

so I'm, it's starting to get in my head. Clarity and that clarity is not only with yourselves, but with your team and then you set a playground to go, I don't know if playground is right yet, the field to go execute, right? Cupps: So- Leslie Holman: Yep. Cupps: That's fantastic. Let's do tie this back to habits. We're getting to the bottom of the hour and we try to get in the 30, 30 ... And by the way, I apologize for all the alerts. I thought I turned off the alerts. If you heard those, I keep getting text and notes and stuff like that, but my apology, I usually try to subdue those. Cupps: 26:23

But if you did hear them, I didn't mean to distract. So let's talk about habits. So you covered a couple of broader categories of habits that will help you be successful. And I'm wondering as individuals, what can we do as individuals to bring humanity to the workforce or the workplace and as we lead projects, maybe we're not the CEO, but we're responsible for executing some piece of the strategic plan. Cupps: What are the habits that we can think about that will help us stay grounded or stay positive, et cetera? Leslie Holman: Oh, I have so- I have so many thoughts here. Cupps: Oh, Cupps: Good. Leslie Holman: And I, I think it's a, I have kind of one on each side. So

I would say from a business perspective, the number one habit I would recommend to folks is be really clear on the problem you're trying to solve and what does success like, look like, and write it down. Leslie Holman: My team has heard me say that so many times because you can sit in a room and talk about it and all think you're agreeing. Yeah. But it's not until you put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard that you all see the words written on a page that you might, "Oh, that's not exactly how I saw it. I thought it this way." Leslie Holman: 27:23

And that simple activity of writing it down, whether it be, we talked about a process map and having that clarity or the problem to solve that can go a really long way. So that is one of my favorite habits- Yep. ... in terms of driving clarity and clarity. The other thing that I always say is just be honest about what you suck at and where do you look for help. Leslie Holman: So if you think about teaming I always say try to create a place where I wanted to work. And there are some things that I have great gifts in and they're just some things I

suck at. Yeah. And I think as a team, we've been able to be much more effective developing the habit to be- Yeah. ... transparent and honest about those things. Leslie Holman: And, look, we call them su- we talk about our superpowers. Look to me when you need this, and this is not what I'm great at and I'm gonna come to other person on my team for the practice, the, of really knowing what you're good at and where you're not the best is another piece that we found has been really important within our organization. Cupps: 28:23

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I was having dinner the other night with with the client and he said he loves getting in a data room and reading through the data and reading all this stuff. And I was thinking, "That is the last thing I wanna do. " And, but you know what? That's what makes everything work is you've got people that do enjoy the data or do enjoy the process side of it or something like that. Cupps: So if you're not honest about it, then you're never gonna know and you're gonna kinda dredge through it and you may not be happy and the output might be affected, right? And there, meanwhile, there's somebody around the corner that would love to do that part of the job, right? Leslie Holman: So- Exactly. Exactly. Cupps: Yeah

that's great news. Cupps: By the way, somebody said they agree with the what's in it for what why are you doing it and the honesty factor. So that was- Yes. ... that was a good comment as well. So very good. So now let's talk about Leslie. You mentioned mountain biking, which I am a recovering mountain biker. I used to love it, but I broke a collarbone in many places. Cupps: 29:23

Oh. So I decided now I ride on flat roads. But I still ride. Yes. You also talked about being a boy, mom, et cetera. So what are Leslie's go- to habits that you have to, that number one, you're you don't do a day without it. And then number two, just in general how do you handle all that? Leslie Holman: Nu- my number one is sleep. Sleep is my non-negotiable, hands down, it impacts everything. And so I will do bend over backwards to preserve my sleep. So that is my A number one. I would say my number two habit is trying to just get movement in my life. Yeah. And I say movement intentionally versus exercise. Leslie Holman: My, my boys are almost four and almost 10. And so it's a little crazy. My days of getting to go do

things on a regular basis, go to the gym aren't as great as they used to be, but having that time to breathe some fresh air and get outside and take a walk I think is just so important. Leslie Holman: And I know if I do the sleep and the movement, all the rest of it I can get through. Cupps: Yep. Yeah, that's, you, that's fantastic. My, my three with the movement is movement, moderation, and meditation. So that's how I try to put that into my day. So very good. Leslie, thank you so much for sharing this. Cupps: 30:23

This is such an important topic. I'd love the humanity aspect of it. I'm really pleased when I start seeing that showing up in our customers or just our relationships hearing with peers that are stories like that. So it's something that I really appreciate that you're out pushing and if somebody wanted to engage with you directly or with your firm what's the best way for them to locate you guys? Leslie Holman: Our website is www.pinnacleconnection.com. And you can always find me on LinkedIn as well. And so really always look for the