007: Behind the Whistle - Referees' Rituals and Breaking Barriers

Step behind the whistle with Dr. Kelsey Jones, female official in basketball and football. In this episode, she shares quirky pregame habits, behind-the-scenes rituals, and real stories from the field that show what it really takes to call the shots and overcome industry barriers. Join us for an exclusive journey into the untold secrets that make every call a lesson in grit and innovation.

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Chapters

• 02:04 – Weird Traditions and Superstitions
• 16:50 – From Benchwarmer to Whistle Blower – Kelsey's Journey
• 20:15 – Foul-Proof Traits of a Top Ref
• 22:04 – Officiating Unscripted – Fouls and Follies
• 25:44 – Pre-Game Prep – Brush, Braid and Get in the Zone
• 27:56 – Double-Booking – Balancing Life and a Whistle
• 29:58 – Whistles and Breaking Barriers
• 31:24 – Crowd Control 
• 33:30 – Pressure Play – Keeping Cool Amid Fan Fury
• 42:54 – Bizarre Moments in the Ref World
• 45:43 – Hurdles and Triumphs for Women Refs 

Transcript

Do not acknowledge fans. It is their job to be there to cheer on their team. It is not their job to yell at me. A intrusive thought that I often have, but I never do it. I want to make that very clear. I always keep an extra whistle in my pocket. If I have a fan yelling at me and I know that they're close to me, like in the stands, I am always so tempted to keep my eyes on the court, pull the whistle out from my pocket and just hold it out for them.

I would die. Come on.

mic drop.

You think you can do this better, please come out here. I would love for you to come out here and do that.

Have you ever wondered why people get so hyped about their favorite sports teams? Well, it turns out it's not just about the game. It's about the community. My name is Teryn. And I'm Ambre. Welcome to Almost Fans, the sports podcast that's fun, a little bit educational, and will give you plenty to say when you're trying to keep up with those diehard sports fans in your life.

Speaker 2 (01:07.48)
Welcome back, Almost fans. We've got a treat for you today. In just a few minutes, we're diving into the wild world of officiating with our friend, Dr. Kelsey Jones. She's got some juicy stories from her time as a basketball referee. Can we just drop a little spoiler here? We want you to envision the mother of a basketball player getting into an altercation with a cheerleader. So don't go away, you're gonna wanna stick around.

and hear that story. But first, as always, we're going to kick things off the way we always do with our starting five. And today's topic is top five weirdest sports traditions or superstitions. And Teryn's going to kick us off. Yeah. So I have some good ones, but I wanted to start with kind of the basic one that I think is so funny and interesting and I really relate to it. And it is the free throw superstition.

The same number of dips and whatever. There was an example like Gilbert Arenas. He was a basketball player and he used to put the ball around his waist. I specifically relate to this one because when I was a basketball player and a volleyball player and before I showed out a free throw and before I served the volleyball, I would bounce, bounce, spin, and then I would do it. Both. Both sports. For good luck. I mean, it's just like habit after some time.

and just do the same thing every single time. I hear you. Okay. My number five is the curse of the Bambino. Yeah. So yeah, yeah. Boston Red Sox sold Babe Ruth, Baby Ruthie, if you've watched the Sandlot, to the Yankees in 1919 and then proceeded, Boston Red Sox proceeded to suffer 86 years of bad luck, decades. And I'm talking like

I mean, okay, you trade away one of your best players and then maybe things don't go as well, but they're like weird stuff happening, like really unexpected losses. Meanwhile, the Yankees who purchased, so weird to think about, purchased Babe Ruth became one of the most successful franchises in MLB history. And by the way, the Red Sox broke this curse in 2004, but in those 86 years, they tried some weird, weird stuff to try to break the curse.

Speaker 2 (03:30.41)
Nothing worked until 2004 when they finally beat the Yankees. Wow. That's good one. All right. My number four is Cristiano Ronaldo's field entry. So he ensures every single game that he's the last player to step onto the field and he always places his right foot on the turf first followed by a leap into the air.

So specific. So specific. But yeah, Cristiano Ronaldo, very good looking man, by the way. Beautiful. I mean, the most. Yeah. Beautiful. my number four also has to do with grass a little bit. Teryn, you're going to this right away. Less miles. That's my number three.

It's not

You might have that here. Okay. So Les Miles, a former LSU football head coach would eat grass of every field. The, I don't know what he did on, you know, like fate, the turf. know he's weird dude. He would eat the grass. He said that it made him feel more connected to the field and in sync with the game. Super weird. Like we, know, university of Florida and I went to university of Arkansas as well.

SEC, football schools, there's all sorts of memes. Usually it involved a goat whenever LSU came to town or we were playing LSU. Yeah, Les Miles meeting grass of the fields. yeah. Well, that's my number three. So go ahead and go back to you for your number three. I'm going to finish out the rest of my starting five here in the great state of Wisconsin. My number three is the Lambeau Leap. So at Lambeau Field, Green Bay Packers after touchdown.

Speaker 2 (05:15.17)
The Packers jump into the, I don't even know how high that wall is, but they jump into the stands. It's high. It's over their heads. So first off, it's really funny to watch, for example, quarterbacks who are very unathletic, Aaron Rodgers looking at you, to try to do the Lambo leap once in a while. And it'll kind of get like, maybe chin up. And then everybody kind of grabs and like, we got you, man. We'll pull you up here. We want to give you a pat in the back. But also,

Don't even, if you're an opponent opposing team, don't even think about, because you will get shoved back off that wall and, or get beer dumped on you. So the Lambo leap is my number three. I feel like the bears players always are trying to do the Lambo leap. Why would you do that? Let's just don't even. Yeah, just don't. Okay. My number two is the hat trick.

So did you know that it's a big tradition in hockey when someone on the ice gets a hat trick, which is three goals, they take their hats off and throw them onto the ice. Like a lot of places do this and every team who takes the hats, they do something different with the hats. Sometimes they put them in an area where you can go.

find your hat and get it back. Sometimes they just donate them like, sorry, you lost your hat. It's gone. But the Vegas Golden Knights, they save all the hats and they have this big clear, like, I don't know what you call it, like fishbowl type thing. And they dump all the hats into it. That's amazing. It's kind of cool. Okay. My number two is, I told you sticking in the state of Wisconsin is jump around. And I think this probably

doesn't need a whole lot of description, but I do have one fun fact. So at the beginning of the fourth quarter, all of the students at University of Wisconsin, Madison Badgers football games stand up and they jump around in the bleachers while the jump around song plays. The parts of the stadium were under construction. I don't know what year it was right after I was in college there. And so the school administration didn't play jump around because they were worried that if that many people, because other people, not just the students get into it,

Speaker 2 (07:27.682)
They were worried that if jump around happened that something could structurally damage the stadium. So they didn't play the song and fourth quarter begins and the students know what's happening. They're like, no, no, no. So somebody in the front, I'm imagining, I might be making this up. Somebody in the front goes as loud as they can up towards the student section. Dun, dun, dun. And the students just jump anyway.

So administration brought it back. think they tested to make sure the stadium was copacetic and then they're like, all right, all right, you win. We'll play jump around. But yeah, they tried to nix it while the stadium was under construction for a year there. Can't get it past the old badges. Okay. My number one is so funny to me. Okay. So there's a basketball player in the NBA. used to actually play for the Bucks. So we are keeping it in the Wisconsin.

Um, for a couple of years he played for the Bucks, Jason Terry. So he used to wear the shorts of the opposing team the night before he played them. So he'd wear them to bed. That sounds expensive. Exactly. We're not just talking about like the Amazon. I need a pair of shorts that say the Dallas Mavericks on it. Like he would find the team short.

And he would wear them if they changed their jersey. You get another get some new shorts. That sounds so expensive. He's an MP. Yeah, you're right. He can afford but like what do do with the old shorts? I'm sure he just kept them because you never know if they're going to bring it back. Yeah, I just have a lot of irrelevant questions in my head right now. I know. And I don't know the answers. And I think some I think some players would like give him their shorts to wear too. So that he would have them, which is hilarious. like

I think there was something about, said he started with wearing his own team shorts and he got bored with that. he was like, I'm going to wear the other team's shorts to bed. Wild. Love that. I hope it worked for him. My number one, still in the great state of Wisconsin is a tradition that happens at the Milwaukee Brewers game. It's called the sausage race. The sausage race. So five people dress up an oversized sausage.

Speaker 2 (09:51.768)
costumes by oversized, mean seven feet tall and they race around the field. Different kinds of sausage, like all different kinds, all different kinds. They mostly wobble. They don't really run. It's very hard. Sometimes you can see them running and they're like holding the top of the costume while they're running and they're really trying hard. It's not just like a ha ha ha. Here I am. No, they are all out, giving it a hundred percent effort. So the five sausages are, and they're all of course,

completely politically incorrect costumes, but that's fine. It's Johnsonville Sausages sponsors it. So there's the bratwurst, the Polish sausage, the Italian sausage. She has a mustang. I mean, they're all the hot dog and then the chorizo wears a sombrero. So you can just imagine, you can Google this or you might already just know what this is. It's phenomenal. It's a life goal I have to someday.

be in a sausage costume. I imagine it doesn't smell really good, I'm gonna just, I'm okay with that. One time I would love to be a sausage can we, like who runs in this race? Can we get you in the race? I have not Googled that, but yes, that feels like a thing we need to do. Yeah, this is again, we're big manifestors over here. We're manifesting it. I'm gonna be a sausage racer. One of these before.

at some point in my life, will be a sausage ranger manifesting it. Who do you want to be though? Which costume do you want? I mean, I feel like being in a sausage costume with a sombrero feels That's what I was going to say too. Yeah. You want that? Okay. I'll go for the hot dog. Like the red and blue striped shirt. Yeah, there's, it wouldn't be a whole lot of wind drag because he doesn't really have like a whole lot of stuff on his head. I can't picture them all. So yeah, you be the sombrero chorizo and I'll be the hot dog dude. Okay. Sounds great.

Speaker 2 (11:45.75)
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All right. Today we have a very special guest, someone who has just achieved a huge milestone literally as of today. Yes, you heard that right. She is officially Dr. Kelsey Jones. She defended her dissertation and passed with flying colors today. I mean today while we're recording this podcast.

Kelsey Jones is an assistant professor of practice at Western Carolina University, but what makes her really stand out today is her expertise in officiating. She's been officiating since 2011. And let me just say this, she's probably seen it all, but beyond her many, accolades, Kelsey is not just an expert in her field. She's also my very best friend.

We met years ago while working together as grad students at University of Florida. She's wearing her Gator's hat and doing her Gator clap right now. So she was kind of my mentor when it comes to officiating. I did a little bit, but I dabbled. She's a great official. So let's dive in and learn a little bit more from Kelsey about her journey, her research, and of course her extensive experience in officiating as a pro.

Speaker 2 (14:07.308)
Dr. Kelsey, welcome to the show.

Thank you. am super happy. was when you sent me this text and said, Hey, do you want to do this? And I was like, I know people who probably are more qualified and you're like, no, you, was like, okay, I appreciate it. So thank you for having me.

Yes, we want you. Okay, so you know we start every podcast, because you're an avid listener, right?

Oh, absolutely. I think I listened to it before anybody else did.

Yeah, you did. Cause I did send you some of the pre, the pre listened. were on the pre listened list. Yeah. So our starting five today is weirdest sports traditions or superstitions. Do you have any that you know of that you can think of off the very, very tip top of your head? Because we did not give you this ahead of time. This is, like to just like spur our guests with some really fun. How quick can you think on your toes questions?

Speaker 1 (15:01.824)
literally anything that Texas A does. This isn't like necessarily a superstition. Well, maybe it is. Reveley, their dog mascot, she is actually the highest ranking officer on campus. So Reveley goes into a classroom and barks. That means class is dismissed immediately. So also outside of Kyle Stadium, they have all of the past Reveleys buried outside of the stadium. There's like a certain like plot and you can go to it on game day.

And they actually have a scoreboard that during the game they'll turn on and have the score of the game and all of the Reveleys are buried so that their head is facing the scoreboard. So it's like they're watching the game.

That was the freaking weirdest tradition. None of mine are that good. No, that's You're welcome. Nuts. Thank you for sharing that.

Now all these texts and I'm sure people are going to come at me, but

You have a target on your back now. Go Gators. Wow. That's cool. That's people in sports are very weird about their superstitions and their traditions. love it. Kelsey, can I just say I was just a little bit disappointed that you didn't show up today wearing your black and whites. I just want to mention that folks can't see you, but I was really hoping that you would be in your stripes today. It's okay. It's okay. We'll look up pictures later.

Speaker 1 (15:59.305)
Go Gators!

Speaker 2 (16:25.814)
Okay, next time send us some pictures so we can put it on socials of you. Done. There we go. Okay. Kelsey, when let's, let's just get out your origin story. So when did you start officiating? How did you learn about the fact that you could be an official, you could get trained, you could do this for a job. know basketball is your main sport that you officiate, but what other sports have you officiated and how did you get started?

Solid.

Speaker 1 (16:53.166)
So I started college at the University of Central Florida, Go Knights, in 2011. And my parents, you know, as parents do, said, hey, find a job. I said, okay. So I dabbled around, looked a little bit, thought I was going to work at one place, realized it wasn't really the spot for me. And so I said, I don't want to work there. Called my parents and they said, cool, find another job. And so one day I was at the Rec and Wellness Center, which is our gym at the University of Central Florida. And I was running around the track, which oversaw

the courts that students would play pickup basketball. And I looked down and I saw what looked like an organized basketball game with referees. know, we are, we stand out. We're wearing stripes and, and they looked like college age students. had a friend who was a junior there at the time. I'm a freshman. She's a junior. And I called her and I said, Hey, are these, are these student officials? And she said, yeah, you can work for intramural sports and be a referee. And I was like, you know, I've been playing sports my whole life.

I'm a very average player. Like I was your solid number seven on the bench. Like point guards got a cramp, Kelsey, you're going to come in until she feels better and then you're going to go back to the bench. And I was a great bench player. I knew what to do. Don't lose the ball. Don't shoot and don't turn over the ball. Great. So she said, yep, you could be a referee. And I said, that may be actually a really good way to like stay connected to the game, knowing that I'm a very average player. I love sports.

and so I said, do you know anything about this process? She said, yep, I have a friend who's actually a supervisor for intramural sports, got me in contact with him, started going to the trainings, got hired. and honestly just fell in love with it. Like it was so much fun being on the court in that capacity. Also the community of officiating really as a relational person, it just stuck with me so hard, especially as a new student at a huge university.

It really created such a close community for me very quickly where I felt a sense of belonging at that university. In terms of other sports, yes, basketball was my main sport. And then I started officiating flag football also at the University of Central Florida, but then was able to start doing it in high school in Florida. And then I actually started doing girls across as well when I moved up to Gainesville, Florida for my grad work. I started doing girls across because there was such a shortage of lacrosse referees. And I played lacrosse in high school.

Speaker 1 (19:09.801)
And then when I moved here to North Carolina in 2019, I had a colleague who I work with at Western Carolina University and he said, hey, do you want to do tackle football? And I was like, you know what? Why not? Let's do it. Let's learn something new. Let's get onto the field in a different capacity. And I actually found out that I was the first female in 25 years to officiate football in that association. So basketball, definitely the main one.

and then currently doing tackle football, also have experience with black football and girls across.

Female football official in 25 years. Yes. I just wanted to repeat that in case anybody missed it. That's so awesome. Yeah.

It's been a lot of fun.

That's very Kelsey in her personality to just be like, I've never done that before, but I could totally do men's tackle football. That kind of leads me into my next question. And I mean, I think people know they, they like to sideline officiate, right? They think, anybody could do that. Right. But what are some personality traits that make someone a really solid official?

Speaker 1 (20:19.572)
Some of these apply to me, some of them don't. I want to recognize that to be a really good official, you have to be detail oriented, but at the same time, you also have to be able to see the big picture. So like, we need to really understand the rules. Really, if we can understand like the principle behind the rules. In terms of even like off the court, there's a lot of business that we do off the court. And not just like reading our rule book or watching tape, but like there's paperwork that we have to submit. We have to go do physicals. And our signers, you know, they have 40 people on their roster.

And so if we're behind on sending paperwork, that's a really big headache for them. And easily we can get taken off their roster. So somebody who's detail oriented, but also big picture in the way that we can understand the impact of our calls on a game. So we need to be very mindful of what's going on. I like to call it global awareness. I really believe that officiating is a people business. You have to be able to at least relate with players, coaches, your

you're a signer, there has to be some sort of ability to relate with others and be willing to listen to others. I've heard this thing, it was from a referee in the NFL and he said, if you ever get to a point that you're no longer learning or you think you're no longer learning, you should stop officiating. So a characteristic, almost being a lifelong learner, being a student of the game, always willing to take in more information is a really important characteristic, I think, for a referee.

Okay, which ones are the ones that you don't have?

my gosh. I'm probably not always detail oriented. I'm like, I'm sorry, did I not pay that yet? Ooh, sorry. Here you go.

Speaker 2 (21:56.27)
Hey, we can't be perfect, right? You can't be good at everything. That's why there's three of them out there more. Yeah. Well done. What a friend. So you just touched on like a lot of things that go into prepping to become a referee. Is there anything that is unexpected? For example, I've heard that referees and my husband used to officiate. feel like he's the one who told me this.

Good answer, Teryn.

Speaker 2 (22:23.736)
They try to wear shirts that are really tight and you know, so they can look really like strong and Kelsey you're like five foot in some change. So I don't know that your height maybe, but like, it true the referees want to wear tight shirts and look muscular so that they can maybe ward off some BS from players or coaches or like, tell us the secrets. there any secrets to like how you prep for a game?

I that okay, always wear a braid. call it the Kelsey braid. That's my own personal secret. It's like a secret weapon. But sometimes if I turn too fast, it'll whip me in the face and hurts. I definitely, Ambre, I can confirm. definitely know referees who like, we call it a shmedium. That's what we call it kind of like the industry, right? Right. And so like, I definitely know that this official off the court, he's probably wearing like a nice like medium to large.

See?

Speaker 2 (23:04.942)
So technical.

Speaker 1 (23:13.216)
No, no, no on the court. It's a solid medium. I myself, absolutely not. yes. yes. And Teryn, even that though, seriously, like we have to get so much tailored because, and I'm wondering if this is really, going off too. And maybe Erin had this, but typically I hear that officials will be very mindful of their alterations for their, their shirts and their pants because they want to always look.

a very like a high level of athletic. There is a really big level of professionalism that is expected. And to be completely honest, that's a critique that I was receiving when I was trying to move up in the ranks was, you you have really good play calling, you have really good positioning, but sometimes on the court you don't look as athletic. And that could be in movements, that could be in alterations of our wear. yeah, there's definitely like, there's the dress code and then there's like the dress code.

That is definitely like a preparation for officials.

He would even go so far as like he had this one black carry on it. wasn't a duffel bag that he would roll up to the gym in just in case somebody saw him before after the game, he'd have a black roller bag and that's where he put everything. Cause it was very like clean cut. And so he has an officiate any longer, but his jackets are super cool. They're like the members only vibe and they got like some stripes on the sleeve and I wear them sometimes and I can tell it makes him feel icky.

because I'm like not wearing it in the appropriate official professional context. He lets me do it anyway because they're super cool. Like in the warm. I look 90s-ish. like he's he was always very particular.

Speaker 1 (24:54.35)
I actually, and I didn't even think about this, I do think it's a little odd and I don't know why. So I only do high school now and so I'm a Christianity varsity basketball. When I go to a game, I am expected to bring a suitcase, literally a rolling suitcase. Makes no I've never questioned it to the point that when I started doing high school basketball when I was a junior and at UCF for Christmas, I asked for a brand new black duffel bag to like roll into the gym and I got, I still haven't.

It's right downstairs.

You're like, just in case I need to hop on a flight and like get out of town because someone hates me.

I had a neighbor who came up to me a couple months ago and was like, do you travel a lot for work? And I was like, no. And he was like, I see you from your school all time. And I was like, nope, just officiate. You like forget that it's bizarre.

High school to high school.

Speaker 2 (25:43.63)
my gosh. Okay. So that's a good lead into my next question, which is what's your pregame routine? Do you have any fun rituals that you do? How do you get mentally prepared for your games other than just watching film and preparing like on the physical side and like how I'm going to do this game, but like on the mental side, what are, what are some rituals you have?

I am, I am guilty. This may be an unpopular opinion in the officiating world. I do not like to drive with anybody to the game. I want to drive alone and which is weird. I'm a very big talker. I love talking, but leave me alone. And I will listen to a podcast usually. There you go. so I'll listen to a podcast. I'll listen to an audible and I just drive. also love to drive. So I feel like that's just a reset for me in general.

Probably almost fans.

Speaker 1 (26:35.926)
And then once I arrived to the gym, find where I'm going, obviously we do a pregame and all of that, but I really like to listen again, maybe an unpopular opinion right now. I really like to listen to Drake. yeah, but like his 2013 stuff, like he's still safe back then. And so I'd like to listen to him and then I need to brush my teeth, leave me alone. I need to go and brush my teeth and I mean,

Kendrick, coming for ya.

Speaker 1 (27:03.744)
Well, like we have like a restroom. I'm at a... okay. You think I'm doing it like out on the court?

Yeah, that's what I mean. Like in the school.

No, no, no, no, I'm saying not like at home. You're not going to brush your teeth at home before you leave. No, no, I am at the school. Yeah. the school.

I've gone in while I'm getting dressed, like I put on all my stuff, and then I have a travel toothbrush and toothpaste, and in the bathroom, I'll sit in there with my headphones on, listen to Drake, and I'll brush my teeth.

That's because you don't want to talk to the coaches and have bad breath.

Speaker 1 (27:30.742)
And it just makes me feel like I'm here, I'm ready to go. Like I got minty fresh, fresh breath and I'm ready to go. And I've been doing that. I've been doing that since I was like a sophomore or junior in college and every single game and all my partners, I work with them so much that they know like, Kelsey's got to go brush her teeth first. Okay. Yup.

This is so fascinating. Can I ask another lifestyle question? So being an official, especially basketball, it's a long season and there's a lot of games every week. How does your wife feel about you working all day and then being gone three, four plus times a week? How do you balance that?

You know, it can it can be a point of contention in our relationship, to say the least. And then as I did also just finish a third and final degree, that was also a whole level of

Final now. You need to reintroduce yourself to your wife maybe. hi, my name is, I think we live in the same place.

Yeah. in, and so that's one thing though, I will say this, every partner that I've had, once officiating came into the picture, I was very intentional about saying, this is a really big part of my life. This is where I find a lot of joy. I'm very passionate about, I will always be officiating in some capacity. You know, in college, it was, I think my junior or senior year of college, I got hired into my first college conferences. so I feel like I've always kind of had that like proactive approach a little bit.

Speaker 1 (28:58.518)
But there's definitely been some hard conversations of maybe I block off a couple days because we're essentially independent contractors. So we've had some conversations of what does that look like for our own balance. Some boundaries. But I also try to be really intentional when I am at home. I always want to make sure that I am carrying the load with our dog or the laundry or the dishes so she doesn't feel like she's also not only just a single mom of our dog, but also just being alone all the time. But I will say, so I do tackle football.

and that's in the fall, that rolls right into basketball. And then I have individuals who will always text me, I love college softball. Porta Gator softball is my bread and butter. I'll have people text me and be like, are you gonna do softball this season? Please come do softball, please come do baseball. And I literally say, Kelly will, I cannot do that. And also I kind of don't want to, but also it's really good to have Kelly and be like, Kelly said I can.

or kill me.

Speaker 2 (29:55.72)
An excuse. That's phenomenal. That's so great. Okay, so this is a tough, hard-hitting question and we want to know the truth. What is it like being a female in this very male-dominated industry? Have you had to prove yourself more? Have you felt that pressure?

Yeah, I think that, you know, like the easy answer is yes. And I also want to recognize that like one, it's gotten better. If you were to ask Dee Cantner, she was the first female to be hired in the NBA. If you were to ask about her experience decades ago, I'm sure that her experiences and my experiences are really different than it. But I really also believe that women like Dee Cantner and Violet Palmer, they walk so that we could run. And I'm hoping that we are just continuously getting better for that. So.

Yes, I definitely feel like I have to prove myself, especially when I was like, you know, 1920 officiating and I looked all of 19 and 20. And as Ambre alluded to, I am five foot and some change. So I always look like I could be a high school basketball player, at least at that time. And I would hear comments of like, Hey, you're pretty good for a girl. And it was like meant to be a compliment. And it was just like, did you hear what you said? I was very fortunate to be around a lot of other female officials, the university of central Florida.

they have produced some phenomenal female referees. And so I've been really lucky to like be in that community, but I've also watched the discrimination that they've experienced. And then also that's, has happened to me, no matter how much progress we make, there will always be a group of people that don't believe that we belong on a court or belong on the field, especially when it comes to officiating male games. But we also have, and this is something that the, about like progress in our sport.

There's such, there is an increase of male allyship. And we do have a group of men who are saying, stop, that's not true. That's not right. And like challenging that ideology. And I think that that's been really beautiful to see because when I get in my head and say, I, maybe I don't belong here. There is, there is somebody, multiple women and men that say, no, no, you do belong here. And I'm here to look you up and help you. And that means a lot.

Speaker 2 (32:10.23)
I have two thoughts on that. First off, when you're officiating, you're basically performing. Like I'm thinking about a musician. You're basically on a stage. People are watching you. So to have somebody shouting you out like that while you are performing, so inappropriate, but to mentally be able to come back from that, focus on your performance and focus on the job that you need to do. Hats off. My second thought here. So when I watch a football game with my husband, he'll...

there'll be a flag on the play. You know, the little yellow thing pops up at the bottom and he'll be like, that's blah, blah, blah. And he'll say whatever flag he thinks it is. And I've always thought it was because it's a so annoying, sometimes helpful, mostly annoying. I've always thought it was because he was just very knowledgeable about football, but now I know it's just because he saw which official threw the flag and likely that official, he knows that that official is watching for these, you know, this category of penalties. So that's how he can.

That is so true. I love watching sports. Because I'll try to like guess what the file was. And I like to try to like guess the number two, especially if it's like false start offsides. And Kelly would be like, how did you know that? And I'm like, thank you.

Hell yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:20.462)
That's hilarious. Thanks for that compliment. Yep. Thank you. That's awesome. Okay. Next question. How do you stay cool when fans and or coaches and or players are in your face yelling at

Okay, so I'll start with fans. I do not acknowledge fans. It is their job to be there to cheer on their team and or their player or players. It is not their job to yell at me. I will actually share a intrusive thought that I often have, but I never do it. I want to make that very clear. I always keep an extra whistle in my pocket when I'm refereeing basketball for two reasons. One,

If my whistle breaks or something happens to my actual whistle, I have a second one that I can immediately pull out and I'm good to go. Two, I use it to keep track of possession. So the possession arrow that sits on the table. So if it's in my right pocket, that means the team that's wearing white or the lighter colored jersey, it's their ball. And then obviously the left pocket is the opposite. But I am always so tempted if I have a fan yelling at me I know that they're close to me, like in the stands.

I am always so tempted to keep my eyes on the court, pull the whistle out from my pocket and just hold it out for them. Essentially insinuating.

Come on. Mic drop.

Speaker 1 (34:43.433)
If you think you can do this better, please come out here. I would love for you to come out here and do this. I've never done it, ooh, but I think about it probably four times a

I hope you do that someday. I'm here like last game ever. When you're like, know I'm retiring from this. This is high.

I

Speaker 1 (35:02.572)
This is my swan song and this is how I'm go out. Yes. yeah, so I never talk to fans. I never acknowledge them. I'll try to, if I think they're getting to a point that they are, like if they use any like threatening language or like any sort of slurs or anything like that, I'll find them in the crowd or try to. And then I work in high school.

So I'm really lucky that I have the resources where it's a much smaller gymnasium. And then I can just go to the game day admin and just say, can you please remove the woman with the red vest? She's done for the night. And they will go and they will escort her out. But I will never look at them directly. And trust me, I do want to look at them though and say, I can hear you and it hurts my feelings. Like I am a human, I am trying my.

That's so true. People need to remember that. Hey, for all of our moms and dads and Chads and Brads who are listening right now, these officials, they have feelings too. Just remember that.

And like, really are trying, like we spend a lot of time away from our families and like we pay money to do this. we like, I'm not making a lot of back between gas and new uniforms and new shoes and like all of it. We do this because we care and we like love the game and we want to get back to the game. So please know that we care. For coaches, I, so I admittedly am not one that like backs away from conflict or crisis.

But I would say one of the main tactics that I use is something I actually think I learned it from somebody that we worked with at Florida, Teryn, and it's called verbal judo. So if a coach is like screaming at me, so irate, so angry, and I'm at a point in time, and like also keep in mind if they're like, I mean, going out of their minds, they're out of their coaching box, they're stomping, that's a technical foul. Like easily that's a technical foul. And I've had coaches just be like, Kelsey, what was that?

Speaker 1 (37:01.324)
Why did you call that? And so, and if they're like not letting it go, I wait for a time that I can go to them. And if they are continuing to yell at me, I'll just, I'll just talk like this coach. Tell me what you saw. What, what, what did I miss? Did I miss something? And if I talk just very even keel, calm, cool, collected verbal judo, they're going to come down and they're going to meet me. If they continue to scream, I'll give them, I love a little stop sign. say, coach, I'm happy to have a conversation with you, but we can't do it while we're screaming at each other.

Can you please tell me what's going on at a lower voice? And typically they'll come down and that has really, really helped me. So I'll do little things where if I know a coach is like kind of wanting to get my attention, but my eyes are on the court and I don't want to look away. So let's say they're yelling, Kelsey, she's in the lane. That's three seconds. I'll just do a little thing where I'll just like tap my ear to just say like, I hear you. I just want them to know I hear you. And then that normally gets them to stop. Or, and this is my go-to, if I'm running down the court and they're like,

She just pushed my girl and say, hear you coach. Boom. Done. They just want to be heard. They just want to be.

just like a child. Just want to be acknowledged. Kelsey, do you have this thing? whenever I officiated and somebody like yelled at me, and this is probably just because I didn't do it very often, does your face get hot?

Yes, and my face already gets red as it is. And yes, there are times where like I'll, I will feel just so red as a tomato and there's no hiding it.

Speaker 2 (38:32.258)
Yeah, you're like, I hear you yelling at me and it is making my face hot. So please stop.

yeah, there's definitely times where I'm like, okay, this is not embarrassing. or if I, referees get things wrong, my gosh. So if I do get a call wrong and I know that it's wrong and then the coach yells at me, well, I'll kind of, to be honest, I'll kind of let them yell at me a little bit more because I'm like, I kind of deserve that. Like I get it. and you may cut this out of the podcast and that's fine, but I will go to a referee and say, I missed that one. I did. That's on me. I'm sorry.

That is, that's cold. think that's wonderful. I think we love that about you.

I do it one time a game only one time. I will get I'm doing it one time. But yeah, so and I think that's another reason maybe why I have a good rapport with the coaches on our association is they know that I'm always trying. I always want to do right by the game. I always want to give. I always tell coaches so I have to do a coaches meeting at the beginning of the game and I always say to your knowledge are your players legally and properly equipped and they say yes and I say great if you have any questions tonight, please come to us with respect. We're going to answer you with respect.

You get your one card.

Speaker 1 (39:40.844)
This game is about you and your team. It is not about us. And I walk away. And that is my pregame every single time that I'm a crew chief. So yeah, so I think like, my face turns red and my heart beats a little bit faster because like, I want to do right by them. I want to do right by the game. I want to do right by the players. And if I messed that up and I missed it, I'm not going to sit here and do tell them, no, you're wrong. I got that block charge, right? I'm going to say I missed that and I'm sorry. And I'll do the same thing to the players.

Yeah. Speaking of this, I also just had a flashback. Do you remember when we were at UF and there was that game where we had no officials who could officiate? It was like we had no staff available. So we had you and you had, and it was like you and Keegan and I think it was Joaquin and you officiated the basketball game. And then it was like on the, it was a fraternity game. And then it was on the, on the sideline being

It's a fraternity game.

Speaker 2 (40:34.018)
the doing the scoreboard and the supervisors on the game was like me and Jenna and Adam. For everybody who doesn't know those names, it was literally our entire pro staff, and grad students who were all on this game. And this kid lost his mind. mean, he got a technical like early on, right? And you'll probably correct me with some of these details, but the thing that I remember the most was at the beginning of the game, he had gotten hit in the mouth.

News Adam.

Speaker 2 (41:01.678)
and that's what he was really mad about was that he wanted to foul or something, so he lost his mind. Apparently his mouth was bleeding or something and that's how he wanted to prove himself. Well, at the end of the game, in front of every pro staff member in our entire, basically anyone who could have a witness statement, he spit.

Speaker 2 (41:24.11)
He's been on the table, I thought.

Yes, at me. Yeah, it was, it was, so he was yelling at me. And then, and I said, the game is over. It's like, it's done. Like again, verbal judo, trying to bring him down. And he just looked at me and I mean, and then looked at that, looked at me and then looked at the table where like, think terror. Yeah. And he just spit on the table and walked away and he never played intramural sports again.

Everyone was sitting in

Speaker 2 (41:53.26)
That guy was dumb. Good.

I couldn't believe... I can't believe... Yeah, I think about that actually.

That guy, like he picked the wrong day to have a-

and I were all three college referees. Like, brother, come on.

This is the highest quality of officiating you're gonna get this entire year.

Speaker 1 (42:11.83)
I remember that vividly, yes.

Yeah, you too.

Speaker 2 (42:18.862)
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Kelsey, what is the weirdest thing you have ever seen at a game that you were officiating?

There was one game that I was roughing. Kelly and I lived in Louisiana for a couple of years and it was when I was working high school basketball there and we're roughing this game, nothing out of the ordinary. Everything's normal. And next thing I know there was like this huge commotion. I'm on the baseline of, you know, on one side of the court and there's a huge commotion happening like in the stands close to where I am. And I look over and there is a

what I'm assuming to be a mother of one of the players punching and like wailing on one of the cheerleaders from the away team.

Speaker 2 (43:41.442)
Kelsey, that is the weirdest thing ever. More details, please.

literally was like, what is going on? I don't know what's happening. Like, what do I do? Like, these players are my responsibilities, the benches are my responsibilities. Is this my responsibility? I was like, this is not my responsibility. So I got away. So I did make sure that the players I tried to make sure that the players didn't leave the bench. Because I was like, is this considered a fight? And if they leave the bench, it's an automatic ejection. I was like going into my brain of like, does this? I don't know. Like, what are the what's the rule? But at that point, the rules didn't really matter. They needed to get this under control. So

I mean, it generally turned into a brawl. But it was so bizarre because it was families, like parents and students.

That is so insane.

So yeah, so then some of the players, got through us, they got over there, they're like trying to pull their moms off of these girls. There's cheerleaders crying and screaming. I mean, like I literally, it was just like, I felt like I was like watching a movie. It was the most, that had to be the most bizarre thing. The game was stopped for like 25 minutes. There were definitely arrests made. it was, it was so bizarre. I could could have.

Speaker 2 (44:49.836)
Parents need to just calm down. Chill. is your reminder, parents. Calm down. It's not worth going to jail over.

It I did find out later that that cheerleader and a boy who was playing basketball they were dating and she had cheated on him. So mom says.

really good excuse. It's a really good reason for mom to come punch you. huh. huh. my gosh.

She said, I'll take care of it. That was nuts. That was nuts.

I feel speechless. That's an amazing, thing. Well done. That's all I No, that's perfect. Terrible. Ridiculous. Okay. We've kept you for a very long time. I really would like to end our time with you, Kelsey, because we could probably go on for hours and hours. We'll probably have you back on another day. So we'll just save our questions for another day. After you hand your whistle to a fan, we would love to re-interview you again, please.

Speaker 1 (45:47.534)
I'll call him from the court.

There we go. Exactly. What happened? We need details. All the details. But let's, I want to end with this. So what progress have you seen in officiating for women and maybe who are some of your inspirations? What are some things that we can do as the average person to, and this is like a series of four questions, so I apologize, but like, what are some things that we could do to continue this progress for women officiating in sports?

so admittedly, actually reached out to four females, who are referring at the college and or professional level. I did tell them that I keep them anonymous. so they highlighted, I guess I'll start with the changes, things that like still need to be done and then end on things that they really recognize that have progressed. So, and I kind of talked about it earlier. They confirmed that there's still this like sentiment and belief that, girls can't be as good as guys when it comes to things related to sports.

You know, really just you're good for a girl. And then also too, like I was talking to one of them and she was telling me that she was living in a certain place in the United States and she as a female was not allowed to officiate boys high school games. And I mean, like this was two thousand and twenty two. Like this was not long ago at all. And then she moved to another place, a different state, and she had to essentially like try out.

to be able to officiate boys' games. But if you're a new official going to those locations and you're a male, nope, you're in, you're done, you're good. So there's still progress that needs to be made with that, state to state, but also just overall as well. If you look at conferences, if you turn on a men's game, there are a couple of females that work within men's college basketball, which was just a very recent thing. I think it was only five years ago that the first female was hired for men's college.

Speaker 1 (47:41.952)
And there are more opportunities now, but being able to have that be a little bit more equalized is some opportunities for progress. And then I thought this one was really interesting. For recruitment, a lot of assigners will go to previous athletes. Hey, you were a great player in Notre Dame. You were a really great player at Stanford. Well, have you ever thought about officiating? Which is really good. Getting a previous player to come and officiate, they already have an awareness of the game. They understand the flow. They know the player, coach, referee dynamics. That's really good.

It also is shutting the door on other recruitment pools. So really just ensuring that those doors stay open for recruitment beyond just previous athletes. Progress. gosh. I mean, what y'all are doing, like you, you all, don't think would be able to like have as much to talk about if there wasn't for all the progress that we are experiencing within women's sports. So even just nodding to the growth of women's basketball in and of itself has then led

to additional opportunities for females in officiating. More recognition of women who are officiating those sports. I think we've seen more recognition of females who have been hired in the NFL and NHL and MLB. And not only are they being hired and it's like, cool, got hired for this, bye. No, check this out, Ambre Hobson is the first female to be hired in this role, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Like it's not just it's being done, but there's also recognition that's being done for it.

Um, one of my referee friends, and I really appreciated this because this has been a personal experience, but I don't think it's a personal experience for everybody. The male ally ship is growing. There's more men that are like surrounding these women and saying, how do I lift you up? How do, how can I recognize you and support you and help you? And then also not just like to your face, but behind your back, how can I advocate for you behind your back as well? Ensure that you're getting the experiences and opportunities you should be getting. Yeah. And then I think just the overall, um,

opportunity of women disaffixating more in men's college sports. And I think we saw a rise for NFL, right? Sarah Thomas was the OG, but we have two other females that are now fishing in the NFL. You turn on an NBA game. There are so many females now fishing in the NBA. We still have work to do, but this year, yes, like 2024 to 2025. If you look back to 2019, there was not that many on that roster.

Speaker 1 (50:02.166)
So yeah, so I really appreciated them reaching out and responding to my text message because I think that they are, they are way more in it than I am. I'm officiating Western North Carolina high school basketball, but they are in it and they are committed to it and they want to continue growing up in their, in their careers. And so I wanted, I wanted to have their voice on this podcast as well. Cause I think that, that that's really important as well.

That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for your insight and for honestly being here today. You've had a very long day. go have all the margaritas and celebrate. Dr. Kelsey.

Yeah, I'm gonna go to sleep.

Yeah, go to bed. It's time.

I appreciate y'all. Thank you for what you do. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (50:53.582)
We've had such an amazing episode today. I've loved this one. And today we are going to hop in to our favorite segment, Ambre's self-proclaimed favorite segment of all time. I love it too. She's got game and we're shining a spotlight on Lauren Holkamp Sterling. She is a trailblazer in the world of basketball officiating. I'm shocked that Kelsey never name dropped her because I'm pretty sure Kelsey knows Lauren.

Maybe she was one of the people who she reached out to. I'll find out later. We'll never know. Secret. So Lauren was born in November of 1980 in Jefferson city, Missouri, and her journey to the NBA as a testament to her dedication and passion for the game. Lauren's basketball career began as a player at Drury university, where she team achieved some remarkable success, including a run in the NCAA division two national championship game in 2004.

So she's an accomplished basketball player herself. And then she transitioned from player to official and Lauren honed her skills in various leagues, including she did six seasons in the NBA G league and four seasons with the WNBA. her exceptional performance led her to a promotion in 2014, making her only the third female full-time referee in the NBA. So Kelsey mentioned the first two.

I was surprised she didn't get to the third because the third is Lauren. Throughout her nine seasons, Lauren officiated 351 regular season games. She had incredible amounts of integrity and professionalism, but in February of 2015, so 2015, she's only been in the league for one year.

It was a game between the Clippers and the Cavaliers and Lauren called a technical foul on the Clippers point guard, Chris Paul. This is probably one of the things that Lauren is most known for like in the media. Following the game, Paul publicly criticized the call and calling it ridiculous and this might not be for her basically. And his comments actually sparked a lot of discussion about gender dynamics in the NBA and it also led to a...

Speaker 2 (53:15.306)
little $25,000 fine for Chris Paul for his good criticism. absolutely. And he to this day says it has nothing to do with her gender. like that's what he says. But I think most of us know if that man was a man, it would not have nearly, you know, been quite as big of a deal despite

some challenges. Lauren's remains steadfast in her role and she's exemplified professionalism and resilience. Her dedication has paved the way for more women in the NBA as officials. And as of the 2024, 2025 season, there are eight full-time female referees. That's the most in history. I mentioned that a little bit earlier and I am just like beaming with joy about that because I love it. Say her last name again. Holtcamp.

Sterling. So whole campus, her maiden name. Okay. Yeah. Off the court. She's equally as inspiring in 2017. She also married a fellow MBA referee, Jonathan Sterling. How cute is that? Right. Um, in 2019, they welcomed their first child, making her the first mother to officiate an MBA game.

Yeah, was watching some clips with her and a few other women. One of the women, wasn't Lauren was saying like, you know, it's actually kind of something that has connected me to a lot of the guys because if they noticed that she was gone for a certain amount of time, they were like, Hey, you know, like, how's it going? And they're like, you know, how are your kids? So it's, it's been a connector for a lot of them, but in October of 2024, Lauren announced her retirement from on court officiating due to knee issues and not just like my knees hurt. had.

three ACL tears. Woof. Which can I say, my goodness, no. I have had one ACL reconstruction and it was in high school. So I was in my like high school knees days, you know, like I had high school knees. Yeah, fresh. They were fresh. And it was horrible. I mean, one of the worst experiences ever. Yeah. So I can't imagine doing that three times as...

Speaker 2 (55:21.694)
a grown adult. But reflecting on her decision, she emphasized the importance of prioritizing her long-term health. And I appreciate that. And that's amazing. Lauren's legacy extends beyond the games. She's officiated. She paved the way for future generations of female referees. Her story is a great reminder of the impact of perseverance and passion in breaking barriers. And as we celebrate Lauren's contributions to basketball, we honor her as a true game changer who exemplifies the spirit of She's Got Game.

Speaker 2 (55:54.466)
That's a wrap on this episode of Almost Fans. We love talking sports, fun and life with you. And more than anything, we love building this community. We've seen the reviews coming in and seriously, thank you. Your support, your kind words, and even just taking the time to leave a few stars has meant the world to us. If you haven't yet, drop us a review wherever you listen. It helps us grow and reach more Almost Fans just like you. Until next time, keep watching.

keep playing and keep loving sports in whatever way works for you. We'll see you soon.