025: Pro Tennis Unlocked, Wimbledon Vibes, and Coco Gauff: The People's Player

New to tennis or just love the drama? We break down the pro tennis world from the ground up—how it works, what winning Wimbledon or any Grand Slam really means, and how players actually make money. You’ll finally crack the code on tennis scoring, discover how AI is reshaping coaching behind the scenes, and understand why tennis is one of the most physically and mentally demanding sports on the planet. Plus, we end with the incredible journey of Coco Gauff—the 21-year-old phenom whose power, humility, and resilience have earned her the nickname “The People’s Player.”

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Chapters

• 10:59 - Diving into Tennis 101
• 20:24 - Understanding Grand Slam Tournaments
• 22:58 - Understanding the Financial Landscape of Pro Tennis
• 27:56 - The Confusing Scoring System in Tennis
• 39:23 - The Pressure of Independence in Tennis
• 40:26 - Technology's Impact on Tennis
• 47:22 - Coco Gauff: Rising Star in Tennis

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00.78)
And when I say the score out loud, the first number I say is my number and the second number I say is yours. So the first time I go to serve, I'm going to say love all or love love. Love is zero. So I have no points. You have no points because we're just starting out.

Hey, that feels right. Love being zero. like my life.

Yeah, it's a, that's kind of a sad way to approach that.

That's how I'm gonna remember it for the rest of my life.

That was zero.

Speaker 2 (00:33.068)
Have you ever wondered why people get so hyped about their favorite sports teams? Well, it turns out it's not just about the game. It's about the community. My name is Taryn.

And I'm Amber. Welcome to Almost Fans, the sports podcast that's fun, a little bit educational, and will give you plenty to say when you're trying to keep up with those diehard sports fans in your life.

Speaker 2 (00:56.994)
Hey, hey, welcome back to Almost Fans, the podcast that makes sports easier to follow than your last situationship. And yes, we'll explain what love means in tennis. Cause today we're serving up a full episode on one of the most graceful, powerful, and let's be honest, sometimes dramatic sports out there. Tennis. Whether you've never picked up a racket or you've been pretending to understand the scoring.

for years I have, count me in on that one. We're gonna have you covered today. But before we dive into Grand Slams, rivalries and all things tennis, we're starting with our hat trick, our top three segment. And this week we're getting personal with the top three non-living asterisk things we absolutely cannot live without. So Amber, why don't you start with your number three.

Okay, Taryn knows this about me. I'm a little bit vain and I love any opportunity to prevent aging. So I've worked really hard to train myself to be a back sleeper and with that comes a lot of experimenting with pillows. So one of the things I cannot live without is my Coop pillow. Coop. Please don't look it up on Amazon because it is outrageously priced. I'm a little bit embarrassed. However,

I've tried a lot of different pillows and pillow combinations and this is the best one for me. It's good for pasture too to sleep on your back is what I tell myself, but mostly it's for anti-aging and wrinkle prevention. But I really, really love my pillow. Cannot live without

I didn't put pillow on mine, but I actually am a huge pillow snob too, not like you, but I just have a big fluffy pillow and it has to be like a good fluffy feather pillow that's the perfect amount of firmness. When I'm at someone else's house and they have, I just, don't want to risk it. What if you have only flat, hard pillows?

Speaker 1 (02:54.414)
That's not going to Or over fluffy pillows. That's just as bad.

Yes, the big cottony fluffy ones. Yeah. No, thank you.

Yeah, it's so important.

is, I love it, I love a good pillow. Okay, my number three non-living thing that I absolutely cannot live without, and this is not gonna be a surprise to anyone, I'm sure this would be on most people's lists except for Amber's because she is a psycho and it is coffee. Because nothing good ever starts before caffeine. And I don't trust people, I don't trust you Amber who's just drink water in the morning and nothing else.

Man, I tried. tried for two years and I just can't. It keeps me up at night. Six ounces or less, if I drink that before 9 a.m. What's the point? If you're not going to feel it, then what is the point?

Speaker 2 (03:45.922)
And then if you do have coffee, you drink it like fuel. Like it's like black, double shot of espresso with nothing else in it and it wanted to taste bad and I want it to hurt going down.

You make it sound like a revenge situation. Yeah, I want to feel that. I want to be hit upside the face by my caffeine when I do do that. In moments of desolation or vacations.

On special occasions, she does let me buy her coffee.

Yes, yes. And then espresso straight up. Okay, my next one is iPhone alarms. I'm to say this and my husband's going to throw up in his mouth a little bit because the sound of my alarms echoing through the house is nearly constant. But here's the thing, my brain is always at 99.5 % capacity. There's like 0.5 % but that's not enough for most things that-

mean anything in my life so I have to set alarms or it will not happen. If you say to me, don't forget blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you need to do in 15 minutes, I will absolutely unapologetically forget. I've got to set alarms. I have to. If iPhone ever removes that, dead in the water.

Speaker 2 (04:59.662)
My favorite alarm that Amber has is it'll be like, it's time for you to start thinking about possibly maybe getting ready for bed now. If you don't. ridiculous like that.

Because if you don't, you'll be a monster tomorrow and you'll regret it.

That's what it says, is it's because if you don't, you're gonna be a monster tomorrow. I'm like, what? It says something really long on it. What is it? That's And it's also at like 7 15 p.m.

It's like, you know how you-

It's at 825, okay? It's not 715. This is akin. This is related to how you and other folks at work make fun of me for putting way too many things in one task name. Instead of just naming the task name, blah, blah, email, and then putting more details inside, I need to say, don't forget, schedule this email, include these things, make sure it goes here, and ping this person when it's ready. All in the task name. It's like those people who make the subject line of emails.

Speaker 2 (05:53.759)
Stupid The whole message.

Can't even yeah, exactly the whole message isn't the subject anyway alarms. That's a great

Okay, my number two thing is chapstick. There's gotta be one in every bag, in my car, in my drawer, in every place. I want one in my pocket. I probably should have two in my car because I'm probably gonna take one out and stick it in my pocket before I go into the next thing. And I prefer for it to be Aquaphor. We've had this conversation before. If not Aquaphor, we have this really good chapstick that we give out at work.

Yeah, and I love it. It's so good. Yeah

good, every time I'm at work, I grab one. Because I'm like, I probably need this in another place. I'm sure I do.

Speaker 1 (06:34.284)
I just want to, because we mentioned this in a social post, but this is Taryn's tubes of lube, basically. I Aquaphor boils down to lube that we just use on our lips.

But it can be used for many things. It can be used for dry skin. I put it on my hands if I have really, really dry skin, because you know it. Yes, all the time. And I would just put it on my knuckles, and it dries and so great, and it makes my hands nice and creamy. Back when my son was in diapers, it's a great diaper rash cream. the time. Yep, it's great. don't typically cross over the butt cream and the lip cream situation, but if in desperate times.

all the time

Speaker 1 (07:11.118)
feels iffy. Yeah. Okay. My final one is men's jockey brand super soft joggers. I had them in five different colors for a total of nine pairs because you need one for every day and then two for backup. Who knows? You'll never catch me in these outside the house because A, they look like men's sleeper pants and B, because I would never defile them with taking them outside the house and they're dirty.

They're

dirty, but I have worn these straight up for the last three years. And I just keep buying more colors because they are my favorite pair of pants. I cannot live without them. Nine pairs. Nine pairs. A whole drawer dedicated just to this one pant in various colors.

That's hilarious. Okay, my number one thing that I could not absolutely live without is Google Maps. I can't even get around my own town without it most of the time. But part of it is that I could probably do it. I just want to know the most efficient route at all times. Yeah, like even if I'm not in a rush, like, but what if there's a better way to get from A to B and also another thing that's

Yeah, if you're in a rush.

Speaker 2 (08:30.83)
I love about Google Maps and also by the way, don't even come at me with Apple Maps. No, get that out. I won't. I'm not even gonna test that line. It's terrible. But what I love about Google Maps is that it shows the speed limit of whatever area we're in and then what I'm driving, because I'm a notoriously fast driver and I like to know and I'm also not like always

Stop.

Speaker 2 (08:57.834)
so attentive to what the speed limit is in any place.

Speaker 2 (09:06.83)
But also like, you know, when you're driving back roads or whatever and you just aren't 100 % sure is it 35 or is it 50? You know, I just want to know. doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to follow that, but you know, it's nice to know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:19.094)
If you know, know. My husband is pretty good with directions and he likes to disregard Google Maps even if he's just a little bit unsure or I might have Google Maps pulled up and he might say, well, you should basically not do the thing that Google Maps is telling you. You should go this way. It's faster. I want to be like, this computer is smarter than your brain. We're not doing that.

better.

Speaker 2 (09:44.696)
What there's an accident? What if there's road construction?

Google Maps knows you don't. man, drives me crazy. mean, you know, because I mean, truly we probably could spare those two minutes, but it me

I probably can't because I'm probably running late.

Yeah, probably you are. What a good list. I agreed with every single one of yours.

Yeah, I need to get myself some Jackie pants, I think.

Speaker 1 (10:08.3)
You really do. They're fantastic. I'll send you the link later.

Okay, great.

Speaker 1 (10:14.838)
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All right, now it's time to dive in to our main event today, which is tennis. I cannot wait for this. Taryn, I know I say that every episode, but I get so jazzed to talk about every single sport. I get so excited. So here's a snapshot of where I'm gonna take you. We're gonna start out with a little bit of tennis 101.

We're going to dive into, of course, you know, we love our money talks on this podcast. So how do pro tennis players make money? I'm going to explain a couple of really confusing things about tennis. You already referenced the scoring system. Yeah, so confusing. So we'll dive into that. A couple of other things. And then I'm going to wrap up with a couple of really hot topics in tennis right now. And then a really deep dive into technology and tennis. It's being used in a lot more ways than you might

think. yeah, you should be. So pro tennis 101, just the basics. So there are two tours. There's a men's tour and a women's tour. That one's pretty straightforward. Within those tours, each of them, men's and women's have four grand slam tournaments. Translated into the biggest of the biggest, the best, the most prize money tournaments of the year.

Speaker 2 (11:54.542)
excited.

Speaker 2 (12:22.134)
Kind of like the PGA.

Kind like the PGA. That's exactly right. So you know how we love to use pop culture references to break down a concept? I'm going to be really bold, go out on a limb and say, this is the best pop culture reference we've ever used on this podcast. The best one I've ever used. Shout out to me. I crushed this. Okay, so I want to tell you about these four Grand Slam tournaments as though

they were characters on the TV show Friends. okay. Right? Mind blown already. Ready. For major tournaments, think of them like the biggest and the bestest of the entire tennis year. The first one happens in January and it is the Australian Open. The nickname for this tournament is called the Happy Slam. I want you to think about this tournament like Joey Tribbiani. I going to say it's got to be Joey. Naturally. Chill.

lovable, a ton of fun, everybody's favorite thing. They're having fun. It's usually sunny. It's a really fan friendly environment. The players love being there. It's a good sort of kickoff to the tennis season since it's happening in January. It feels sort of like the beginning party of the tennis year. Still really elite and still super challenging and competitive, but kind of a good easing into the tennis season.

So Australian Open like Joey Tribbiani and it's in January in Melbourne, Australia. Okay. Next is Spring and this one is in Paris, France. It's called the French Open and it's on clay. I'm going to get into this later. I had a lot of questions about surfaces. Like how in the world do you play tennis on grass? How does a ball bounce on grass? Hold on to that. We'll get there later. But the French Open, it's on clay. This is Ross Geller from Friends. Okay.

Speaker 1 (14:20.906)
It's French, right? It's intellectual, it's intense. There's all sorts of drama and emotional highs and lows. Takes itself pretty seriously. It's like grit meets glamorous. It's artistic, but still a little bit mean and brutal. People in the stands are wearing very much like Parisian chic, you know, sort of gear and outfits.

But again, all of these tournaments are still really, really competitive too. Okay, number three, Wimbledon. This is in the summer, July. It's coming up soon. And it's in London, England. It's nicknamed the Royal Slam because it's in Great Britain, obviously. This is Monica Geller. Yeah, Monica's vibe. I totally relate to her. She feels like a person who has a lot of Post-it notes.

is you.

I'm totally Monica Geller. Yeah. So this tournament, Wimbledon, is classy. It's got all sorts of traditions. Everybody, the players who play in Wimbledon, they wear all white. And I know when we think of pro tennis, I usually automatically think of all white, but that's only because Wimbledon is such a big tournament. We probably grew up watching it on TV, seeing pictures, et cetera. The other tournaments, you don't have to wear all white. can, but most people might get a little bit more unique and creative.

So here in Wimbledon, rules matter, etiquette matters, clean whites only. Everything must be just so. It's like a clean freak. know, like that's why this one is like Monica Geller. They talk about how winning at Wimbledon is like winning at tennis's cathedral. So it's super full of legacy. That's sort of the vibe of Wimbledon. Okay, number four out of four is the US Open. This is a hard court.

Speaker 1 (16:14.912)
It's in the fall, August, September, summer, guess it's in NYC, New York city. It is nicknamed the loud slam. Can you guess which remaining friends character this might be? Close, actually not close at all. Rachel Green. I mean, I guess it could be Phoebe. It could be because she plays the music and everything. Yeah. Yeah. Could be either, but fashionable, chaotic. Yeah. That's Phoebe. Fashionable is Rachel.

I'm a baby.

Speaker 1 (16:42.766)
confident, lots of star power. There's always a bunch of celebrities who come out to the US Open. It's flashy, fun, loud, full of surprises. Doesn't always follow the rules, but somehow always steals the show. The crowds are super rowdy. There's a lot of New York City energy, like tennis meets showbiz kind of thing. A lot more trash talk, just kind of grit. So tennis meets rock concert is the vibe here.

Rachel slash Phoebe. You'd be a US Open wouldn't you?

Probably that feels right.

Yeah, more laid back and chill. So if you win one of these Grand Slam tournaments, pro tennis player, that's amazing. If you win all four, you are a total legend. And that hasn't happened in a really, really, really long time. I looked up a list of people who have done this. I did not recognize a single darn person on that list other than Steffi Graf. No modern players have done this. Yeah.

That's a-

Speaker 2 (17:46.754)
Whoa.

The most recent was Steffi Graf in 1988. Yeah, in one year. so that's different from golf.

Do you have to do it in one year? so it's not like, it's not like golf. Yeah. So in golf, it's just winning it all total at one time total. So it's you're saying they have to win all four in one year.

Yeah. And there's not like a specific, you know, if you do all four in a year, then you're called a blah, blah. Or if you do all forever, you're called a blah, blah. It's just sort of like a fun fact. It's been so long since somebody was so dominant that they could get all four in one year. It's like really, really challenging because players have different strengths in different environments on different types of courts. you know, they can play to their strengths or against their strengths. So,

You know, as tennis has evolved, it's incredibly hard to be that good. Okay. A couple more things about these tournaments. Each one starts out with about 128 players and they are set in depth. So you lose one match and you are a goner. Good luck next year sort of thing. Each tournament is about two weeks long. So, you you're not playing back to back days. That would be insanity.

Speaker 1 (19:01.186)
But if you do win it all, that means you will have played seven matches. There are seven rounds, including the championship round. Okay, a few other just pro tennis 101 fast facts. This season is grueling. It is nearly year round. It starts in January with the Australian Open. It goes all the way through to November. And these Grand Slam tournaments are obviously not the only tournaments that are happening.

There are a ton of other tournaments that are sprinkled throughout as well. So pro tennis players based on points, based on their standing, get to go to some of these other tournaments as well, or can choose to go to some of these other tournaments as well. The prize money is not as big, but it's four tournaments per year. You're probably playing in some other tournaments as well. Every pro tennis player has a ranking. This makes me think of college football or college basketball.

when you're watching the teams play and they have, if they're in the top 25, I guess they might have the ranking next to their name. It's similar with tennis. They're ranked, I think, one through 200 maybe in the world. so it's a really, it's a ton of pressure. Every single match counts. And every week these rankings are refreshed. So you have a couple of bad tournaments and you could drop.

dramatically in the standings, which might mean that you don't get to, know, if you're significantly lower in the standings, you might not make it into some big tournaments you want to go to. So it's super high pressure and it's just like, makes me think about how you're only as good as your last match and how nerve wracking and how much, you know, like you're not feeling great or you just don't sleep well for three nights in a row and then you got a match and you just don't show up and give it your all.

that could significantly impact your career. I don't know that like just makes me sweat. It makes me so nervous. It's like a huge mental drain. Yeah. So there's singles and doubles in tennis. This is pretty straightforward. But a couple of things I found interesting with singles, endurance is a lot more important because you got to cover the whole court and usually one point, just one rally back and forth, you you and me hitting it back and forth, trying to win that point.

Speaker 1 (21:26.358)
is going to take longer. It's usually about six to 10 exchanges, but in doubles, because you have two people, so more of the court is covered, even though they use a wider court for doubles, it's still a lot more like short bursts. So it's usually two to three back and forths, and then you get a break as you reset. Isn't that

Not only are you not moving as much, the rallies are shorter.

Yeah, but also more brutal, you know, like people are really, they're going for the throat. They're being super aggressive because it's such a sort of like power kind of feel for those competitions. So that was really interesting.

Speaker 2 (22:11.502)
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Okay, now, so that was Pro Tennis 101. Now, let's have a money talk. How do pro tennis players make money? Here's something that blew my mind. Tennis players are basically independent contractors. This is just like pro golfers. There's a number of other sports out there. For some reason, it hit me a little bit harder when it comes to tennis. I just hadn't thought about it that way.

but they are all lone wolves. So they're paying their own travel, their own hotels, coaching, any sort of strength and conditioning trainers or massage therapists, food, know, like everything they are paying for on their own. The cost of all of that for one player could be anywhere from a hundred thousand to $200,000 per year.

Well, yeah, they've got to travel to Australia and then they got to go to London and then they got to go to France and then they got to go to the US and then everywhere in between.

Speaker 1 (23:47.694)
Yeah. And one tournament, they're going to be paying for a hotel room for at least two weeks if they do really well and go deep into the, you know, into the rounds. So this means that breaking even, you know, the money coming in and the money going out, just breaking even is really, really hard unless you're in the top 100 men's or top 100 women's.

Right? It feels like show business, you know, like where you just got to like do the jobs and kind of like eke it out and like New York City, I don't know, you know, until you make it big. And then when you finally make it big, you can be comfortable. But until then, it's like scraping. So the biggest chunk of income for most players is going to be prize money. grand Planships? No, no, it's prize money for the biggest, like the higher level players.

So Grand Slam winners, so those four bigger tournaments, they can earn, if they win, between two to three million dollars. And the first place winners are not the only ones who get prize money. Again, really similar to golf. And listen to this, how cool is this? For all four Grand Slam tournaments, men and women get paid the same.

what a shocker.

Is that amazing or what? It makes me so happy to hear. Also, yes, I do feel some sarcasm in the back of my brain, but I love it. It's been this way for a really long time. It's not all pro tennis tournaments. It's just these four Grand Slams. The smaller tournaments are mostly not that way, but that's pretty cool. Also, listen to this. 128 players get to go to the tournament. If you lose in the first round,

Speaker 1 (25:37.548)
At a Grand Slam, so one of those top four tournaments, you're still a highly ranked player. You'll take home between $70,000 to $100,000. So getting to those Grand Slam tournaments is a big freaking deal. Another reason why you're standing matters so much. You wanna be invited to those parties, to those Grand Slam tournaments. Okay, so other ways that players might, yeah, you guessed it, sponsorships, endorsements, partners. This is really big for top players. That's not a surprise.

For example, Roger Federer, at one point he was making over $90 million per year, mostly from partners, endorsements, sponsors. Yep, that's not too shabby. Yeah, some of those mid and upper level players will get paid to just come to the tournament, make an appearance, be involved there. Those tournaments are trying to grow and attract more top players.

I'll take it.

Speaker 1 (26:33.006)
This can sometimes be anywhere from $50,000 to a million dollars depending on the player. So bottom line, how tennis players pay their bills. Basically, the top 10 players on each side, men's and women's, are making millions of dollars and crushing it. Top 100, it's a solid career and they're definitely comfortable. They're paying their expenses and then some. But outside the top 200, you're

really hurting and you got to figure something else out. You got to maybe get a part-time hustle or really find a way to fix your serve so that you can get up there into the top hundred or whatever you got to

I mommy and daddy will fund your life.

Yeah, for years and years. So it's like a winner takes most sport with super crazy highs and really, really challenging lows. Okay. Let's move on to some confusing tennis things. Starting off with the scoring system. So the scoring system is super weird and I dug and dug to try to find out why and there's really no answer. No one? No one?

No

Speaker 1 (27:49.198)
Yeah, that's exactly what the article said too. I read a couple of articles, watched a video and the first one was like, no one knows. That's the annoying thing or the frustrating thing. No one really knows which sort of adds to like this ethos of like mystery of tennis and the feeling of really long time history because probably there's a lot of like we think maybe this or we think maybe that, but nothing really sounded good. So I'm not going to repeat any of it.

it's been this way since the Victorian period. I don't know when that was, but I think a really, really long time ago, hundreds of years. Yeah. Okay. So let's pretend you and I are playing a tennis match. We start out and I'm serving the ball to you and I serve the ball all the way through our first game, which is not

historians here we're just

Speaker 1 (28:44.194)
Like a football game or a basketball game, a game is a much smaller segment of a tennis match. The match is the whole kit and caboodle. So for this first game, I'm serving to you the whole time. So I'm saying the score the whole time. And when I say the score out loud, the first number I say is my number and the second number I say is yours. So the first time I go to serve, I'm going to say love all or love love. Love is zero. So I have no points. You have no points because we're just starting out.

That feels right. Love being zero. Feels like my life.

Yeah, it's a, that's kind of a sad way to approach that.

That's how I'm gonna remember it for the rest of my life.

somewhat pessimistic outlook. I mean, that will make it memorable for you. Next time you're watching tennis, you're to be like, I know she's got nothing going for her because she's got love.

Speaker 2 (29:39.148)
That feels like right where I can understand. Finally, finally someone explained it to me in a way I can understand.

Terrence just had a tennis epiphany. She'll remember nothing else from this episode other than when someone has a love score, they've got nothing. Nothing. All right, bringing it back to tennis. We start out and we're love, love or love all. It's the same way of saying we both have the same thing. I serve it, you score that point. You hit it into my court, it bounces out. I can't get it and volley it back.

So sorry.

Speaker 1 (30:16.334)
Now I say my next serve, which is going to be on the other side of the corks. go back and forth. Now I'm going to say the score is love 15 because I have no points and you have one point, but your one point is not one. It's 15 worth 15. Okay. Again, why? Nobody really knows. There's some theories about a clack, but it doesn't, doesn't hold water for me. Anyway. Okay. So now it's love 15. I serve again. I get the point.

team.

Speaker 1 (30:43.47)
now it's 15 all or 15 15. You get the next point now it's 15 30. I have 15 you have 30. You get the next point now it's 15 40. I get the so it's 15 love 15 30 40 is the wait

stupid.

Speaker 2 (31:01.23)
Oh yeah, love, okay, love, 15, 30, 40, yep.

Love 15, 30, 40. Let's say I score the next two points. So now I have 40 and you have 40. This is called deuce. We are tied at 40 or 40 all I guess you could say. Now in order to win a tennis game, which again is not the whole match, but just a smaller segment of the game, one person has to win by two points. Okay. So now we're at deuce. I serve the ball and you get the point. The next time I serve, you have the advantage.

meaning I'm still at 40 and you have the advantage. If you score the next point, then you win that game. If I score the next point, you come back down to deuce, where even again, so the person has to win the game by two points. You have to get advantage and then you have to score the next point to win that game.

Okay, so it's like basically love, 15, 30, 40. Advantage is kind of like the next point, only if you're tied though, right? because if you were at 15 and I was at 40 and I scored, I would just win.

You would win that game. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (32:10.968)
I have one by two. So advantage only comes into play when it's, I'm up by one now and I need to score one more to get to two points above you.

Yep. Advantage only comes into play if you and I meet at deuce, which is 40-40. If you get the advantage and you win that next point, then you win that game.

Great. Okay, so then the score would be one zero for the match.

One zero for that set.

set.

Speaker 1 (32:40.91)
Cool up. Okay. Okay. So games go into helping you win a set. So let's pretend you just won the game. So it's one, zero. We keep playing and we keep winning games, you and I, until one of us wins six games.

WHAT

Speaker 2 (33:00.59)
That's the set. So one set goes to six games, right? And then it's a match of three or five, right? Sets.

Yes.

Speaker 1 (33:07.65)
Yeah. So we keep playing games until one of us gets six games, until one of us wins six games and the other person has won four or fewer. Because again, you got to win by two. So if you get six games and I have five, you have to try to win the next game. If you can, then it's seven games to five games and you win that set.

If you can't and somehow we wind up at seven games to six games, it goes into a tiebreaker and I've totally forgotten how to do all of that, but there is a whole system for tiebreakers. I know, right? Okay, so let's just pretend you won six games, I won four games. So now you've won a set. And since we are women, we play the best out of three sets. So if you win the next set as well, then you are the winner of the whole match.

It's okay, I don't think my brain can handle it.

Speaker 2 (34:01.976)
it.

I win the next set then it on to the last set.

And the last one is full six games, right? So it's not like shorter. It's not like volleyball where you play a shorter game.

Nope. And men's is the best out of five sets.

Okay, I knew that. I knew the three and the five thing, but yeah, okay. I think I got that.

Speaker 1 (34:19.832)
So it's confusing because there's points that go into winning games, games go into winning sets, and sets go into winning the whole kit and kaboodle, which is called a match.

Which is insane. Like the fact that like one game could be like deuce, advantage, deuce, advantage, deuce, advantage, deuce, advantage, deuce, advantage. And like you could do that forever before you even win a game. It's crazy.

It's crazy. One tiny little piece of the whole competition. Such a bad.

I still remember this one, like these guys that did like an 18 hour match. Like it was something crazy.

Yeah. Okay. So that's a total outlier, like a long match now, again, because men, you know, if it goes all the way to five sets, we're talking about a three to five hour. And I have some more information about this, like the mental fatigue as we get a little bit further down, but it's like three to five hours long. Can you imagine being that focused and that in it physically for that long?

Speaker 2 (35:30.85)
I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this because I feel like I have so many opinions about it, but keep going. I'll let you move on.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:40.246)
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Okay, one last topic I wanted to hit here before we do a couple of deep dive topics is grunting. this strategy that-

So annoying to me

It is really distracting to me too. I'm not a fan. Okay, so some players just grunt or moan or... There's some really weird ones out there. Some people just do this instinctively to kind of maximize on power, sort of like an exhale kind of strategy. And maybe even to like mask the sound of their ball hitting the racket because that can subconsciously can like clue people into...

Speaker 2 (36:42.35)
weird sounds that can come out of people's bodies.

Speaker 1 (37:01.206)
the speed, the power that might be behind that shot. It's controversial. Some fans love it. I don't know them at all. Most who

think it's... don't those people.

Maybe, yeah, maybe. But other people like us think it's just weird and distracting and unserious. Okay, I'm going to do two deep dives. The first one is sort of actually like a shallow dive. The second one is a deeper dive. The first one is mental health and tennis. And these two things, mental health and technology, I was thinking about this today, keep coming up in so many sports that we talk about, which is really good on the mental health side at least. I love that this is coming up.

So the mental health side of things for tennis was really, really came into focus with Naomi Osaka. I do too. was a tap pro. She withdrew from a couple of major tournaments because of mental health. I think so either 2020 or 2021. Around that.

Love her.

Speaker 2 (38:05.196)
COVID, right?

Speaker 2 (38:11.256)
whole time when just for people. Yeah.

Yeah, when lot people were really struggling, she skipped one press conference and apparently the media ate her alive. It was like this sacred thing. How dare you skip a press conference at the heart of it? sounds like overall the media was most afraid that other tennis players might follow suit and be like, you know what? Yeah, actually I don't really want to get picked apart after a really terrible loss. So I'm going to start skipping. That hasn't happened. know, people are still...

participating and post-match press conferences and giving their thoughts and all of their quotes and et cetera. She says there was a lot of people who supported her and reached out. She listed off Michelle Obama, a couple of others. Michael Phelps also reached out and was like, I see you, I support you. He told her that by speaking up, she may have even saved a life. And she commented that- Goosebumps. Yeah.

Thanks.

She commented that if that's true, then it was all of the hassle and the back and forth and the struggle. It was all worth it. So I think some of this stems from tennis players being those independent contractors. You've got your coaching team around you, but you've also got all this time on social media during tournaments when you're not playing. You're a lone wolf. It's so hard to make ends meet.

Speaker 2 (39:40.152)
biggest part is just yeah, like one, yeah, one, like your whole livelihood revolves around your ability to play a sport and not rely on anybody else. Like golf, tennis, these sports like this, that you are the only person who is, and not just you probably, right? You probably have a team of people who you have to pay and are relying. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. It's a lot of pressure.

Yeah. livelihood is counting on you?

Speaker 1 (40:08.108)
Yeah. The other topic that I just wanted to dive into today is technology. So here's a couple of fun ways that the world of tennis is utilizing technology to get better. There's Hawkeye line calling. So it's automated technology that tells you if the ball is in or out, replaces human line judges. It's not present at all tournaments. It's like the big ones, right? okay.

I that ball comes out so fast.

Yeah. Some of these serve speeds are like, yeah, 164 miles an hour. How can you possibly see where that lands? Why this matters, it cuts down on arguments. There's no bias, increases fairness. I imagine it might also help the match move faster. No, we're not going to haggle on this. We're not going to argue about it. The technology has a picture of the ball. Here you go.

in the hundreds, right?

Speaker 1 (41:09.056)
move on now, please. It's used at most of the big tournaments, not all of them and definitely not some of those middle and smaller tournaments. AI coaching and smart racket. AI can be used to assess a tennis player's technique in real time. Can be used to optimize serve placement, their footwork patterns.

their shot selection, you know, as they're volleying back and forth, you know, should have hit it to that corner or maybe a chip shot right over the net, et cetera. Coco golf, another famous pro tennis player. Her coach has mentioned using AI feedback tools to help her improve her performance. So for example, a coach could say, Hey, Taryn, your top spin forehand. And it's like,

Big time. Love that one. It's favorite. My favorite one. First shot.

It's your favorite shot, Taryn. Yeah. Taryn, your top spin forehand had 150 RPM less today than last week. So let's work on that. don't honestly, I don't even know all of what I just said.

Yeah, let's work on that.

Speaker 1 (42:19.406)
Let's work on that. But anyway, so just more technology to give really fast feedback to players, what's working, what's not working, how they can get better.

What I think before we move on, what I think is super interesting about tennis is that like you're so on an island that we've talked, we talked about this in a previous episode where like with, Serena and them thinking she was cheating with her coach, like cheating that sounded bad. That sounded like cheating with on her husband, but not like that, like cheating by using her coach, which is crazy. Like in what other sports can you not converse with somebody while you're playing and what like

during timeouts and stuff like that. Like you are so on an island. You can't even talk to your coach during timeouts. It's crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. So if you find yourself in a spiral, right, you've lost the last three games or the last handful of points and you're starting to just lose control and getting upset and it's hard to focus, you've got nobody helping you. You and you. You have got to pull yourself back out of whatever spiral is happening in your brain so that you can come back to the game and focus. That is a perfect segue.

I want to tell you one more piece of technology, so wearable tech that can measure heart rate, fatigue, hydration, movement efficiency, but let's go back to fatigue. The fatigue of tennis, mental fatigue, like what you were just saying is a huge, huge challenge. When I say mental fatigue, I mean the fatigue of decision-making, so what shot?

Speaker 1 (43:57.926)
Analyzing that player's strengths and weaknesses, concentration on the game, anticipation, or feeling a lot of pressure if it's a really high stakes match. Here's something interesting. I always, so I played tennis in high school, not really well, but I played it and I really liked it. But these really good tennis players on our team that I knew in between points, they would look at the strings on their racket.

And if you just look down at your hand right now, because we've been looking at each other through these screens, your eyes actually get to take a break because you've been using certain muscles in your eyes to look at me on your computer screen for the last 30 minutes. But when you look at your hand, those muscles take a break and other muscles are the ones that you're using to focus on your hand. So when you see tennis players looking at their strings, maybe picking at them, they're not actually moving their strings around or anything, probably.

They're actually giving their eyes a chance to rest. they're taking off some of the eye fatigue, some of the concentration and focus fatigue. Yeah, super fascinating. Other ways that tennis players become fatigued. Think about this. Most sports are either endurance. So it's not your maximum effort, but it's something lower than your maximum effort for an extended period of time, endurance, right?

or it's something like a sprint or a power sport. Endurance would be like soccer, right? A sprint or a power sport could be something like volleyball, golf, you know, I guess would be more of like a power sport, things that are really short amounts of effort for a short amount of time. But tennis is both. You have to have those quick bursts of speed, but you have to be able to do that for three to five hours possibly.

like matches can last that long. Listen to this. The average tennis player runs three to five miles per match, but those miles are not run at a comfortable pace. It's sprints. Yeah. They run three to five miles of sprints over the course of three to five hours.

Speaker 2 (46:10.21)
Like I think about football, football would be another sport that's sort of like that, but you get offense and defense. So you get to like rest while the other side plays and tennis you never get a break.

You know, in tennis, it's really like a 20 second break in between points. I feel like even when you're in an offensive drive, you get more than 20 seconds between plays, right? Yeah. It's like such an impressive sport. And some athletes, you can use fatigue as a strategy. So if you know the other player is not really good, you know, like their stats show that if the match goes past three hours,

they're going to take a nose dive because their body just can't do that or they don't know how to, you know, hydrate and feed themselves, fuel themselves. Well, heck yeah. Then I'm going to, I'm going to take my sweet old time and we're going to, we're going to make this match last as long as possible. Yeah. So there's a lot of strategy in there too.

strategy that you gotta come up with ahead of the game and then execute all by yourself.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Like, all alone on your little island.

Speaker 1 (47:22.808)
All right, now we're on to our final segment of the episode, which is She's Got Game. And I've been dying all week to tell you about Miss Coco Goff. Love her. She's so cute and genuine and authentic and lovable. And I adore her. So her full name is Cory. I did not know that until I- neither. Yeah, because-

you don't see her anywhere else as anything else other than Coco. Coco was born in Atlanta, but basically grew up in Delray Beach, which is really close to where Venus and Serena grew up. Fun fact. We hear this all the time. If you want to be a star, you got to have star parents, it really feels like, and Coco is no exception. Her mom was a track star and then homeschooled her.

So something in common with Ms. Taryn here. Her dad played college basketball and actually coached her when she was a little bit younger. She's got two little brothers. They're now about 10 and 16 years old. They've got their own sports that they're super into baseball for one and football for the other. She loves the beach. She loves having grown up in Florida. Direct quote, she says, I'm like a mermaid. So to wake up every day and see the beach is like,

a dream.

is she?

Speaker 1 (48:51.564)
She is 21 years old right now, but when she was five, that's when she really got into tennis. Listen to this. So her dad says that he was watching a tennis tournament and Coco was there. It was Serena at the Australian Open. And her dad said something like, she is going to be the goat about Serena. And little bitty Coco, five-year-old Coco was like, dad, what's a goat?

And he said, it's the greatest of all time. And Coco said, I want to be a goat. And her dad laughed, but also went out and bought her a tennis racket the next day. So that was the inception of all of it. No, I can just picture a little baby Coco. So she turned pro in 2018. She's got a couple of grand slam titles. She's won the US open in 2023 and she's also won the French open.

It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (49:47.534)
in 2025, just super recent.

You end up something funny though about the French open, even though she won it. Her first round, she got out on the court and forgot to bring her racket.

my gosh, I would be so embarrassed and so rattled.

Wait, where am I? my. Wasn't rattled. She ended up winning the whole thing. So that's pretty amazing.

Okay. So you know, I always ask this question whenever I do, she's got game. What exactly makes her so good? So what her athleticism and her ability to cover the whole court is one of those things. When I watch her play, she does remind me a lot of the Williams sisters because she can cover ground really fast with just a couple of steps. And when she gets to where she needs to go,

Speaker 1 (50:40.532)
she can turn around and go back the other direction like that. I mean, the agility is unmatched. So coaches and analysts talk about her speed and recovery being really impressive. She's a crazy good defensive player. So you might be attacking really trying to win this point, but man, that point is not going to be over for a long time because she can reach even those shots.

that you think surely you're gonna win. She can be there. She can serve really powerfully. She has a really strong forehand and backhand drives. She's really tough mentally. I will say this though, her coaches have talked about how one of her greatest strengths and weaknesses both is her perfectionism. Here's one thing that her coach has said about her.

Her biggest strength and her biggest weakness is her perfectionism. So even after winning a match, she's gonna say to herself, even if she won, she's gonna say to herself, why didn't I win that faster? Or why didn't I win this match or this Grand Slam title sooner in my career? She is absolutely her own biggest critic. She's known as a people's player because she's grounded, she's positive, she's approachable.

She's genuine. She's so likable. Her family is adorable. She prays after matches usually on her own and then also prays with her dad. She credits her faith in her family for keeping her humble. That's another word that I want to attribute to her is really humble. She connects super deeply with fans and she's one of those players who really feeds off the crowd and feeds the crowd.

She's also really funny. And so here's one of the things that she said directed at some of the haters who, know, obviously somebody in the spotlight is going to be criticized. She said to those who thought they were putting water on my fire, you were really adding gas to it. And I'm really burning so bright right now. Yeah. So she said that after she won the U S open and listen to this when she was awarded

Speaker 2 (52:52.856)
Yeah you are.

Speaker 1 (53:00.654)
her prize check for no big deal, just three mil on stage as they're doing the trophies and whatnot. Billie Jean King was there, so tennis player, activist. She said to Billie, she held up the check and she said, thank you, Billie, for fighting for this. Billie Jean King is one of those players and advocates who really helped. know, right? One of those... I think maybe you're cutting an onion.

my eyes sweating?

Speaker 1 (53:29.752)
There's some onions in your room. But Billie Jean King is one of those people who advocated for fair pay and equal pay. So like little Coco, so mature, so humble, so loving and compassionate, know, in that moment when she is the one being celebrated, holds up this check and is like, girlfriend, this is because of you. I'm here because of you. Hold on. It doesn't stop there.

I want to tell you just one more story, a really similar vibe. When she was 15, so going back a couple of years, she was the youngest player ever to qualify for Wimbledon through a wild card. I'm not exactly sure how they place people in tournaments, but it sounds like she was like, one of those players that they didn't really expect to get in. She was really new on the scene. And in her first round, you know,

We've talked about seeding before, so that's how they figure out who's going to play who. Usually the top seeds play the lower seeds. It's like an advantage you get for having a good seed. Sure. So at 15, little baby Coco, she in the first round played Venus Williams. Coco was 15. Venus was 39 at this point. at Wimbledon, we talked about this. This is Monica Geller. There's all this like tradition and etiquette.

So part of the tradition is these players, it's just them. They're not there with their coaches, but they wait at the end of this long hallway and then they walk down it to enter onto the court. And along this hallway on both sides are pictures of all of the former champions, all the people who have won Wimbledon over however many years. And Coco said she walked down the hallway first and Venus was behind her. And as Coco walked,

She's passing photos of Venus on the wall and she's thinking to herself, my gosh, there's a picture of Venus. There's a picture of Venus. Also, low key, she's walking right behind me and I'm about to play her. My hero, my inspiration. Yeah, so what a crazy, meaningful moment that is. Okay, so they go out, they play the match.

Speaker 2 (55:37.73)
Like my hero.

Speaker 1 (55:49.294)
Coco says that during the match, actually, there were times where she would avoid looking at the scoreboard because she couldn't stand to see Venus's name because it would make her more nervous. Obviously she can see Venus, the person.

just another human being. can't think about who she is. Just a human.

just a lady on the other side of the net. So Coco won this match. Yep. She kicked Venus out in the first round and after the match point, she walked up. So the players always walk up to the net and they shake hands, maybe, you know, hug, et cetera. She walked up and she said directly to Venus, thank you for everything you've done. So, and then afterward, I know more onions, right? Why am I so?

I know. There's some onions in my room too. Then afterward in press conferences and with reporters, she said that she wouldn't be where she is if not for Venus Williams, if not for seeing Venus and Serena, people that look like her, people that come from where she comes from, people that have hair like hers. If not for seeing those women on TV, she wouldn't be there either.

this to things that make me cry in sport. like play against your hero or like being able to thank your hero for like paving the way for you to become successful in a sport. Because let's just call a spade a spade. There's just not a lot of black people who play tennis. There's just not a lot of representation out there or there wasn't there hasn't in in history been many. wow, like how powerful.

Speaker 1 (57:02.19)
Yeah

Speaker 1 (57:19.854)
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:29.806)
You know what else is powerful that strikes me about this is a 15-year-old and then later on a 21-year-old having the self-awareness and the gratitude to, in that moment of their victory, being able to shine a light on somebody else and say, I was able to do this because you did that. In that moment, you're like, oh my gosh, I won. I'm the best in whatever because I won this Grand Slam, but she

she turns it around and she finds a way to celebrate other people. So I know for these reasons and so many more are why we've chosen Coco today. And I cannot wait to watch her at all the other tournaments this year and many, many years to come. So miss Coco goth everybody.

Speaker 1 (58:25.538)
That's it for today's episode. Tennis from Grand Slams to Grunts to Golf. If you learned something new or had a few laughs, we would love for you to rate our show and write us a review. It's the absolute best way to support our show. Truly, it helps more than you know. Thanks for listening and we will see you next week. Same time, same place.