From D&D to Dragon's Gold: Luke Laurie on Creativity, Community and the Game of Life

Episode Summary:

Luke Laurie isn't just a master of game mechanics; he's a true Strategic Game Master who found his Dragon's Gold not in a pile of treasure, but in the enduring joy his creations bring to thousands of players worldwide. Join us as the designer of Dwellings of Eldervale and Andromeda's Edge unpacks the mindset required to build a lasting creative legacy while embracing the "grind" of discipline and finding joy in the journey.

Key Takeaways to Level Up Your Mindset:

• The Power of Alliance: Why the "power of relationship" and active collaboration are critical to success in game design, business, and life—proving that winning is better when it's done together.

• Healing the Darkest Hour: Luke shares the emotionally challenging period during his teaching career involving unprecedented school violence, and the perseverance required to push through and affect lasting change.

• Mechanics vs. Theme: How Luke balances the necessary rigor of strong mechanics with the immersive magic of theme in his blockbuster Euro games.

• The Forever Student: Why committing to always learning—and being flexible enough to pivot and adapt to rapid change—is vital for sustained long-term success.

• Designing Freedom: How Luke used discipline and dedication to moonlighting as a designer to eventually achieve his career goal of leaving a profound, positive legacy.

What You Will Learn from This Strategist:

• How to harness the Power of Relationships to forge collaborations that elevate your career.

• Why separating yourself from technology (like going for a bike ride) is vital for maximizing creative perspective.

• The truth about the "grind": finding joy in the disciplined, long-term effort required for mastery.

• Luke's personal definition of "Dragon's Gold" and the legacy he hopes to leave behind in both teaching and design.

• Why the act of simply writing notes (even if you never reread them) is key to moving ideas forward.

Tools & Weapons

• Uniball Pen & Spirals: Fundamental tools for design; the physical act of writing down ideas is key to iteration and processing thoughts, even if the notes are never reviewed.

• Voice Recordings: Used on the phone, often while driving, to rehearse and process ideas without distraction.

• Bike Rides & Long Car Drives: Stepping away from the "busy-ness" of perpetual inputs to allow the brain the freedom to wander and gain new creative perspective.

• Discipline & Perseverance: The secret weapon is loving the "ride uphill" and committing to long-term effort, knowing that patience and chronological time are necessary ingredients for great results.

About Gold Dragon Investments:

At Gold Dragon Investments, our mission is to bring joy to others by helping them win the game of investing. Helping every client become the hero of their financial journey. We believe that wealth is a tool, but joy is the ultimate outcome.

Through meaningful partnerships, we strive to empower our investors to create freedom, and build lasting legacies of purpose, fulfillment, and wealth.

Join Us on the Adventure:

• Website: https://golddragoninvestments.com
  
  
• Schedule a Call

Chapters

• 0:44 Welcome Luke Laurie to Dragon's Gold
• 1:21 The Call to Adventure: From D&D at 10 to Discovering Euro Games
• 7:27 The Leap of Faith: Dabbling in Design & The Origins of Cardboard Alchemy
• 16:06 Becoming a Board Game Celebrity: The Joy of Admiration and Fan Connection
• 19:22 The Power of Alliance: Why Collaboration Beats Competition in the Industry
• 27:21 Theme vs. Mechanics: Why Mechanics Are the Game's Necessary Foundation
• 31:18 Gravitating to Euro Games: Reworking Conflict for Positive Player Interaction
• 36:14 The Call to Teaching: Finding Stability and the Love for Science Education
• 44:17 The Value of Discipline: Why You Must Love the Uphill Ride and Honing the Craft
• 48:51 The Gauntlet: Overcoming the 'No Child Left Behind' Credential Crisis
• 52:39 The Darkest Hour: Persisting Through Unprecedented School Violence Post-COVID
• 1:00:28 Fellowship: Co-Designers, Playtesters, and Inspiring the Protospiel Movement
• 1:08:42 The Creative Process: Gaining Perspective on Bike Rides and in Solitude
• 1:14:50 The Time Ingredient: Why Ideas Need Chronological Time to Manifest (Low and Slow)
• 1:18:22 Dragon's Gold: Leaving a Legacy of Joy and Human Impact for All
• 1:22:21 The Next Quest: Essen Spiel, Andromeda's Edge Genesis, and New Development
• 1:24:29 Tools & Weapons: Spiral Notebooks and the Power of Iteration
• 1:26:11 If You Could Be Any Mythical Creature…

Transcript

0:44

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome once again to another episode of Dragon's Gold, the magic of mindset. Today we have the extreme pleasure of having Luke Lurie, a retired junior high science teacher, but also very notably currently a developer for Cardboard Alchemy designer with multiple incredible titles under his belt, including Andromeda's Edge, Dwellings of Eldervale, Cryo and Manhattan Project Energy Empire. Luke, so incredibly excited to have you on the show today. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Absolutely, my friend. Well, as I like to do, let's dive in. What's the origin story? Where did it all begin for Luke Laurie? Well, um. You know, there's a lot of ways of phrasing it, but you know, they have modern retro stories about kids on bikes in the eighties and uh playing Dungeons and Dragons. That was me. uh It wasn't quite as uh glamorous as it's portrayed on television. But yeah, I started playing Dungeons and Dragons when I was about 10 years old. uh I wasn't somebody who had a lot of financial resources to get my hands on everything. So uh I would be the kid who was sitting in the little tiny bookstore, the one little bookstore in my town in uh central coast of California. And I'd be reading the Dungeon Master's Guide and the Player's Handbook and the Monster Manuals and when the Monster Manual 2 came out and the Oriental Adventures book and so on, along with the Choose Your Own Adventures and that sort of thing, Dragon Magazine. Behind the counter, they kept these sacred little boxes, padded boxes with figures, the little early old school Dungeons and Dragons style mini. that were basically completely toxic lead and you'd take those home and you'd paint them up with some even more toxic paints. uh yeah, that was where I started. With uh board games, uh I was... I was exposed to some of the older school board games, of course, all the classics, Monopoly, Scrabble, et cetera. uh But I didn't get deep into the hobbyist board games until I was much, much older. So essentially, I played mostly Dungeons and Dragons for about 30 years of my life. uh In the 90s, I got into playing Magic the Gathering uh with my little brother. And uh over time, uh started getting introduced to Euro board games in the 2000s. uh Started with some really, really simple low key games. One of the ones that really kind of cracked the shell of my exposure was uh San Juan, you know, derivative of Puerto Rico, just a little uh kind of ancient building card game. And it was easy enough that I could play it with my young son and my wife. And we would play. you know, essentially... Euro style family board games. It's kind of where it started. Gradually, I started finding out that others out there were playing things like Carcassonne and Settlers of Catan and so on. And yeah, it wasn't too long before I started attending meetups and finding about this whole world of board games. um One of my friends, uh a lot of it started actually when we couldn't quite get the the role-playing game grouped together and they're like well we can't get the whole group together but i got this board game and we're like okay whatever and i got this card game it's called dominion you know you you build your deck and you know you get provinces and so on so i remember one and one night i got introduced to both dominion and agri-cola The same friend of mine from my D &D group introduced me to the Manhattan Project. um And I didn't know that a few years later that I would be, uh you know, co-authoring the sequel to the Manhattan Project. And there's some fun stories there and that my path into the industry was connected directly with the types of games that I'd been introduced to. Um, but I'm the kind of person who in any given field that I have been exposed to, I've always dabbled in creation in that field. So, you know, I owned a car. Well, I work on cars. I, um, I live in a house. Well, I'm going to work on houses. So I've, I've dabbled in things like carpentry. Um, you know, I tiled my own bathroom. I built Lego robots, even competitively Lego robots. Um, Yeah, basically I make stuff. I build things. When it came to being exposed to modern board games, I right away started dabbling, making my own. I'd already written my own war game miniatures rules uh previously. I'd made countless sets of rules for various things that I wanted to include in my role-playing game experiences. Finding things that didn't quite fit with the standard rules, making a situation, or being uncomfortable with the way that the standard role-playing rules handled things and I wanted to have I was wanted to have rules for things too. I yes, I was the dungeon master who might roll some dice behind the screen and fudge it here and there, but I love the idea that you were going to create some kind of puzzle for players and sometimes that took a little more uh definition and rigidity in terms of what the you know what the what the inputs and outputs would be. uh So in any case, I did start dabbling with game design pretty early. And so I hadn't even played that many Euro games before I was starting to build my own. My first design that I recall was one called Age of Prophecy. And it was... uh worker placement ish. It was uh on a big map of some kind of mythical version of Mediterranean ancient Greece, something or like that. And it had uh Greek gods and seasons. And a big part of the game was that the gods were playing with you and you had to make choices in this game where you would be trying to predict how the next season was going to go. And in order to do that, you would consult the oracles. You'd go to the seers and see what was up. know, is the next season going to be good tidings for war or was it going to be a bountiful harvest season and you'd try to make your choices based on partial information about what the next seasons would be like. uh I took the mechanics from the part about seeing the future, involved putting stones around cards, and then at various times they'd get flipped. And turned that into its own game. that became my first published game. My first published game was a little one called stones of fate and it involved memory aspect. And it was, you know, basically like a grid of cards, a spread so to speak, because these were tarot cards. So I used a real tarot deck and you would try to position your stones in a manner where the spatial positions of the stones would let you win the various tarot cards. And as you flip them, they would have various effects that were thematically tied to the meanings of those tarot cards. It wasn't too many years after that where I continued to dabble and I started to do things like going to the conventions and meeting people and uh that led me into all kinds of exposure to the industry. And I would imagine we're starting to touch on uh another topic. So much about what you just said, I love. the idea about starting in just what your passion is, the idea about role playing, like everything that you were saying, was like, yep, yep, yep, yep. Right? Like, I mean, like I run right along with so much of what you just said. And I, I, uh it resonates with me. And I say that because I think that I'm not alone. I think a lot of the people that would listen to this or people that, fellow gamers, um especially at this age, um right, we were in the golden era. Going through the eighties and where we're at now, all the stuff that we loved as kids is now like mainstream cool. Like what I used to be a nerd and now all this stuff I like is like, you know, everybody likes it. And that's kind of neat. um There's nothing as vivid as watching an early 80s fantasy film versus watching a fantasy film today. I mean, we took what we could get in terms of a fantasy film. Like the worst writing, the worst special effects, just because we were desperate for anything fantasy. loved it and still loved it, right? Yeah, my kids, I've tried sharing some old classics with them and they are not having it. It's not, yeah, it doesn't make it. I love that. uh So cool. Awesome. Well, uh when going into and this transition going into getting in the right circles, one of the things about you We're already designing games. You're already doing it for yourself and your friends, right? You already have the idea, the imagination. You're creating these pieces. To be able to then take that years of knowledge and experimentation and then to put it into action with games that you literally produce and then are able to put out for other people to enjoy, like what an awesome thing. To get there though, and to get to the point of publishing a game and actually have it be successful, ah Along the way, there are a lot of trials and tribulations, bumps in the road that you come along. Are there any moments along that journey that jump to mind that you can share with our listeners? Yeah, there's all kinds of highs and lows and it really makes me think about, you know, kind of the next stage of like. So here I am personally thinking about wanting to create these things. And I know that people go through this where they're thinking like, okay, I've, I've got all these ideas and now what do I do with them? And the very nature of this field is about sharing your ideas with others. And the ideas that you create are only as good as what people will enjoy and how they experience it. So it's, it's one of those things where it's absolutely vital that you get out there with that. and experience other people. You can't just torture your family over and over again with, uh please play my game 100 times. It's fun. You'll love it. um So getting to conventions was a really, really big step in terms of what took me farther down this dream. uh I'm see I'm also a little reluctant to think about it as like a dream and a vision and a goal because so much of my experience as an incrementalist is simply, you know, kind of one foot in front of the other following, you know, following the present intention and the present interest. I know it's going to lead to good stuff, but I actually don't know what that good stuff is. I'm more. Like it's kind of a Zen place to be where I'm doing like this is the dream. This is it right here. I am doing exactly what I want to do by creating games. So anyway, getting out to conventions um early on, it was going to strategic con in Los Angeles. And we were, I was working with a friend of mine and he was uh trying to become a publisher and I was trying to become a designer. So he published stones of fate and um that was in the early days of Kickstarter. So everything there was kind of primitive and you're getting out there with your, your, uh your desperate uh plan to try to make this little game and follow my dream and fund me. And you'd raise, you know, if you're lucky tens of thousands of dollars in those days on crowdfunding, and that would be a huge success. And then you go through the process of getting the game out there and, know, just even being able to create a game of a few hundred copies was you know, that was an incredible accomplishment. So at Strategic Con, we met a whole lot of other folks just like us who were early in this field, early in this industry. And I don't know how much of it is a combination of just very good luck with who we connected with, like who we got to know. um I uh wasn't always the kind of person who was gregarious and affable and easy in public. I was more of like, I didn't want to go to parties, didn't want to be in social environments. I don't know, at somewhere along the line, I grew to love people too. I mean, I've been a teacher for years and years. I'm around people all day long, right? So, but getting out to these conventions and meeting such interesting people. who are into board games is part of what was the shift for me. You'd get to know someone and you find out this, you know, this person you've been sitting across from is a screenwriter or these folks are animators at Walt Disney. uh Part of it is the location too. So if you go to conventions in Los Angeles and you go to conventions in the Bay Area, the conventions in Los Angeles, you're going to be interacting with literally people in movie, TV, film, arts, in addition to, you know, business people, lawyers and so on. You know, ordinary folks up in the Bay Area. You don't know whether you're sitting next to, you know, a CEO or somebody who works with LucasArts or Industrial Light and Magic or, you know, a jazz musician. You just don't know. So I found that a lot of the folks that I met in LA were trying to make games also. And some of them were, you know, they were hyping up whatever their current project was. They had a special table and they're like, you know, try out my game and I'm going to try to put it on Kickstarter and so on. I recall uh playing an early um copy or. Yeah, I can't remember if I played it or just saw it at this time, but it was Viticulture. Viticulture had not been published yet, and there it was at the convention. ah Will Wheaton would show up at Strategic Con, get starstruck seeing him there. And he became a celebrity in the board game world there for a time period with his YouTube channel. Yeah. I want to ask a quick question about that. And I think this is a perfect segue for that is what does it feel like for you now to arguably be a celebrity to be able to go to these places and amongst fellow board gamers, like to have that, what's it like being on the other side of that? Oh yeah, it's a blast. so, yeah, and I remember as strategic con, you know, they would have their special guests. And so you're like, oh, well, that's Vlada. I'm not sure if I pronounced his name correctly. Vlada Čavadl, the Czech designer. So Vlado's there, and I saw him. Let's see, it's Brice, I think, the key flower, key designer. Love again. met him and and yeah, I was starstruck when I when I encountered that some of these folks because it's like you're looking at someone and you have an admiration for something creative that they've done and You admire their mind And it's like you've played their board game and you kind of like, saw inside of their mind, you saw what they could create and it's an incredible thing. And at the same time, you're like, how could I do that? How could I have those thoughts? How could I put together that kind of puzzle? So when I have fans come up to me at conventions, I have that, I get to experience it from the other side. If someone comes up and they're just like, you created something that we spend hours and hours loving. Like we play your game all the time. And I get to do, you know, the sign, the signatures and things like that. But I am the kind of, I try to be the kind of board game celebrity who gives time to everyone who wants to come up and speak to me. um Because I know that they, They're admiring of what my mind has created. And I know that uh to me that automatically makes them interesting people. So I kind of want to know like, who are you who likes what I have created? Um, so I always give folks time when they come up to me at the conventions and sometimes they apologize. They're like, Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. I, I didn't want to take all your time. And I'm like, no, this is, this is exactly why I'm here. I'm here for you. I'm here to, to, to show my stuff, my games, my work and, and to, meet you. So. when you say that and to meet you. one of the things I like to think that, uh, The term that I use is called the power of relationship. And in the connections that we make, there is so much power. You don't know who you're speaking to or what connections they may have or what doors that it may open. But to go into those interactions, not specifically with the intention of those doors opening or expecting reciprocity, but to go out and just be genuine, to be yourself, to find the way to connect with people. And then by virtue of that, organically, these doors begin to open. And it's amazing. One of the things you had commented on earlier and the term I thought of was uh collaboration over competition, right? Coming together in these game design moments, putting your ideas to paper, sharing them with people during play tests, being able to learn and see how someone breaks your game. You're like, wow. I never thought you were going to do that. uh OK, I'm glad it happened now before I printed hundreds or thousands of copies of this game. uh And then fixing it, or finding out a way to make it balanced. I think about what you mentioned earlier in this interview in regards to D &D, seeing a rule that you're like, I don't like the way this rule deals with this situation. So to be able to say, OK, uh let's switch it and have that freedom, that ability to change it and make it something special. uh And then to fast forward, to know that your game is giving literally hours and hours of enjoyment to thousands plus of people, right? And I mentioned we do Friday night game night. That's my little escape. I work quite a bit and my idea is this is my escape. I love it. Some people think you're literally going to spend hours crunching in your brain and doing numbers and math. ah after having an incredibly intensive week. And I'm like, yeah, like I love it. Like it's not work, it's fun, right? And when you're doing it with the people that you care about, your friends or family or whoever it may be that's playing with you, right? That's the joy. Cause no matter what game hits the table, it's all of you being together and creating those memories too. And I love what you said about the power of relationships because it connects to em it connects to how players at tables. You know, it creates value to that time, those relationships. um But uh going back in terms of like my history and my path, that that power of relationships was tremendous. because in about say 2012, so we're talking 13 years ago or so, at those early conventions, I met some of the folks that I work with to this day. So Brad Brooks, Peter Vaughn, Christian Strain were three folks who I encountered early on. was Peter and Brad, I met them in LA and Brad's father and several others. And we got together and started to build a blog back when having a blog was a thing. So, um, we created the league of game makers and we decided that our shared talents, skills, and, and, uh, and our styles were going to be complimentary and that we could, we could elevate our own status in the industry while learning the ropes. So what we did was we started this blog and we pumped out blog posts three times a week with graphic arts and links. And we did all the homework. We did interviews. We would go to events. We would write about events. We would take topics, you know, theme versus mechanics. We would look at publishing, distribution, crowdfunding, and we created something of value for the industry that we wanted to be a part of. And in doing so, we really, really learned a lot. that so the combination of learning a lot and then also creating those connections with folks in the industry. You know, it'd be like somebody somebody managed to make a connection and they get talking to Jamie Stegmeier. Next thing you know, we have We have this connection there. We go to the publisher speed dating event at Gen Con and do a write up on the thing. And that's the big talk of the town was the big write up of everything that happened at the speed dating event. um Three of the folks who were in the League of Game Makers, well, four of the folks from the League of Game Makers are part of Cardboard Alchemy now to this day. And then other folks uh who we encountered along the way uh work in other board game companies or are designers. so... uh These connections. Yes, you leave yourself open to any possible connection anybody you potentially play a game with uh because the reality is when you sit down and you play a game, especially if it's a big long euro like I play I'm spending three to four hours with someone and over time you kind of get a sense of their you know, their sense of humor the their their intellect their their interests people have a level little side conversation and just sharing time and space with people. Sometimes you play one board game and the next time you see them, you're friends. Like it's fast friends. And now I have hundreds and hundreds of friends from playing games and teaching games at all of these conventions. It's remarkable. I love that. I love that. It's so, powerful. A thousand percent. agree with you. And it is, I very much believe one of the biggest pieces of magic about board games. Yes. It's the fun and it's a game and yes, one person will walk away from that table with the W unless it's a team game or whatever. The point being, yes, technically one person gets the high score, but I very much am a believer that when we play those games, we all win. Right? Each of us is winning because we're spending that time, right? We're in that space, that time and space together and creating those relationships. And as you say, fast friends, I go to some game conventions, maybe someone I hadn't seen in two or three years and immediately like you see each other, you strike it out a conversation and you just have that immediate connection. And it's a lot of fun and valuable. You touched on something else also, which was super important. uh The board game industry is competitive in some ways, but it is one of the most open, collaborative, uh creative industries that I am aware of. um We are consumers of our competitors' products, and we're also we are some of the best and strongest supporters because we like to see each other succeed. uh We want to raise all the boats. If we've got a booth and we're at a convention and we're next to somebody else who's got a booth, we want to go over and see what they've got. We want to. We love that and it's amazing because, also like you said, you don't know which of these relationships is gonna turn into future collaborations and so on because there's a lot of collaborative work. The nature of a designer's work is that designer's designed for many different companies. And so then if you are a company, then you're also kind of like sharing the work of the designers with those other companies as well. uh An artist over here is going to be doing art for your game. They're going to be doing art for their game and so on. And so, yeah. And then we go and we have social events and we enjoy each other's company. It's pretty amazing. I completely agree. think it's amazing. It's my it's out of all the hobbies. I mean, it's my favorite, but I'm also biased. so I something you touched on earlier, and I would love to think about this, you made a comment in regards to theme versus mechanics. I'm curious, when you design uh a game, how do you weigh that? And what's more important to you? Or is it both? And how, how do you weigh that? So when I wrote the article, uh I took the stance of mechanics over theme when I actually wrote the piece, because we did like this dueling posts of theme versus mechanics, mechanics versus theme. And then we had somebody wrote the synergistic piece of, no, it's all together. The reality is it's absolutely both. ah However, the game will not survive without the mechanics. So there are games that can survive without themes. There are games that can survive with loose themes. But there aren't so many games that can rest on their theme alone. That said, in terms of my particular style, I think very hard about the way things work. Whether it's how they would work in the real world, you know, what are the real physics? What's the real history? What are the real facts? And then when I'm working in kind of a fictitious environment, I still am shooting for that level of consistency in this world. Like what is true here? How strong is magic? What is what are the capabilities of these starships? And uh I always want that sense that. It's like uh being able to go through the procedures and the mechanics of the game, but having that level of disbelief while you play that you are going to still manage to be immersed in that game. And it's funny because there there are drier euros that I enjoy and I'll be playing them and I'll get done and I was like, yeah, that was a really interesting game. I loved how you took those little boxes and you put them over here and it did this thing. And then I think about it. I'm like. But I have no idea why I put that little thing over there and it did that. That was a it was a function and it was a procedure, but there wasn't really a good explanation for what that meant. So. In my design, try to make it so that you could, you need to understand a baseline about how the kind of the overall environment for mechanical environment for how I'm going to take my turn. But I like to hope that if you played thematically. you will have some level of success. okay, so say you're playing Andromeda's Edge, you sit down and I hand you the Space Pirates of Nightmare Cove. And you say like... very good friend of mine, his favorite faction. We draw and draft at random and I don't know how, but he literally has played that more than any other faction and like it's an immediate go-to. He doesn't even look at the other factions. He just takes it. Sorry, go ahead. like, well, how do I play the space pirates? I'm like, well, play like a pirate. If you play like a pirate, you'll do okay. With some exceptions, you're gonna have to deviate once in a while. So yeah, I want the mechanics to make enough sense that that kind of takes away some of the cognitive load for how you interact and experience the game. I love that, Luke. is it theme? it mechanics? Yeah, it's absolutely both. I mean, I love to design mechanics, but it is how they fit together that matters so much. I would I would I love that I think it's absolutely accurate I think that you can have this similar mechanics and multiple different games and and the the same game whether as a fantasy theme versus a space theme will attract different people right the game itself it has to be fun people want to enjoy it and have a good time but there is there is something to be said for the aspect that right for RPGs we you talked earlier about playing D &D Right. Well, there are other games that you can immerse yourself in a world that is in space or in the wild west or et cetera. But to go with that fantasy theme of the fantasy genre, um the mechanics can work in anything, but you want to find the style that you enjoy. Right. You may comment about uh Euro games being your preference. How did you how did you come to gravitate towards Euro games? um What is it about them that you really enjoy? So as a child of the 80s, I grew up with games where you would be destroyed by your opponent or you would destroy your opponent in older style games. And um some of that also would come down to where... You know, people would just like laugh and love that they kind of abused the situation to just completely crush and destroy you in in old school style games. And when I see a game that does that today, I'm always thinking like, yeah, this is this feels outdated when I see that in a modern game. ah someone who runs away with something, for example. I love the idea that uh as I started to encounter Euro games, that I was looking at things that on their surface would be pretty simple. Like this is just a simple, I flip this card over, I spend this resource, I exchange this item for that item, I move this piece. And then it comes together in a way that it's like the sum of the simplicity makes a very interesting interaction. um The idea that uh you could have interactions that are like positive interactions with other players at the table. Like when I do this, I get this benefit, but. they get a benefit also because of, you know, kind of a lead follow mechanic or because I uh built a building in the town square and now everyone gets to use it. uh Just these very interesting dynamics that occur in Euroboard games, has this uh rethinking this whole idea of what it means to play a game. It's not just I attack you and I hurt you and I take your stuff and then I kick you while you're on the ground. Yeah, so Euro games don't feel like that. They, even ones that have conflict, you still have this sense, this feeling that you're always in it and that as you play the game and you get done, you think about how you're going to play the game differently instead of thinking about which people you're never going to play with again. Which is, which... Don't get me wrong, I play high conflict games too. And there's a place for those beer and pretzels and crush the enemy and see them driven before you. Yes, yes, absolutely. Luckily, um after after things settle, we're usually able to work things out. There's certainly heated moments, right? Like, luckily, dice rarely go flying across the table once in a while they do. um That's how you know you're into it, right? um Try to to try to minimize the rage. Although some I mean, I can only imagine if you play with so many people, right? And I find I actively I intentionally go to conventions to play with new people. Because when you play with the same game group all the time, like, there's there's value in that, I believe. But when you play with the same group game group all the time, you're never getting exposed to new games or new personalities, new play styles, right? Some people like to turtle up, and they just shore up and they they they build their fortress and they don't really ever extend. Some people are all or nothing, right? I'm thinking about some of the games, those conflict games, like, I have some friends that immediately come to mind in that regard. And so people have a certain type of play style that they tend to gravitate towards. And so when you can go out and expose yourself to new people, not only does that help, I believe it helps you to become a better player. It helps you to become exposed to new games. And then you can go and share those with your common game group, right? um And you get to make new friends. I think that's it. So. ah want to ask teaching. I, uh, I have a special place in the heart. for teachers. I think that you are the unsung heroes of our country, arguably the world. You are literally helping to teach, educate and raise the future generation. Not just of our country, but of our world. And I'd like to ask how and why? What was the spur of the catalyst that wanted that you wanted to get into teaching? Why science and Was middle school always the intention or did that come about through an evolution? it came about through practically an accident. um So yeah, my path was I've always been a jack of all trades. um My wife's family is Mexican and they use the phrase, es tuche de monarías. It's like a box of trinkets is uh a of all trades or treasures, the solo. But any case, uh I... Didn't want to go into a field when I got to college that would um close doors. I liked the idea that I would have open doors in terms of the kinds of content that I was going to be exposed to and the fields that I would pursue. So I was not a college bound student coming out of high school. uh I was poor and uh hadn't done the preparation to attend university. I went to community college not knowing if I was going to do a trade or a profession or even like finish. uh So I started dabbling like in so many things. I, you know, tested the waters in uh theater, music. I played in jazz band. uh I painted cars uh and I took classes in science and I took classes. I took an introduction to teaching class. And I realized that teaching was a profession that I felt like not that I would go into with full passion, but I felt like I could live with it, that this could be a life path that would give me a sense of stability to be a stable platform for the kinds of things that I would want to continue to pursue in my life. My wife and and we've been together all through college and all that we uh she She absolutely was go to the university, know finish get the degree get the good job and I was a little more like gonna find my way and uh But I also didn't want to let her down and I wanted to help have a stable life for us. So pretty quick I got through University I went to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo and uh got an elementary teaching credential. I did get a science emphasis. uh Science classes and also classes in anthropology and archeology were some of my favorite classes in college. And um I went to do student teaching in elementary schools. So I worked in a second grade class, a third grade class, and then a fifth, sixth grade class. um And then I got hired as a long-term substitute to finish out a school year. And I was teaching in a kindergarten, first grade, um, bilingual class, all of the students in my class were Spanish speakers. And I was teaching the tiny, tiny, tiny little kids and, uh the principal who hired me for that, she said, uh, well, we want you to, we know the kids haven't done any science and we know, you know, some science. So. I should do some science with them. So I did a month about space with the kids and it was fantastic. While I was there, they saw that I had those skills in science and they looked at the books and knew that I qualified for what was called a supplementary uh authorization to teach science and I got recruited to teach in the junior high. I, my first experience teaching junior high was my first day on the job at El Camino junior high. And I did that for 28 years. Um, so when I got there, I found my place. I found my place right away. Um, I ran clubs and pre-engineering. Um, I worked and started, uh, a robotics program that was across many schools and the central coast area. I um chased teaching awards and accolades because I didn't get enough love as a child and I did all that. um I managed to receive the Albert Einstein Distinguished Educator Fellowship and I worked in the US House of Representatives as an Einstein Fellow. um got to do all this great and cool stuff because I kept putting myself out there, kept applying for grants, getting the awards. There wasn't any part of the regular job that I felt so tied to that I couldn't deviate. I had all kinds of freedom because really early on, ah I was doing things that everybody thought was incredible. you know, we didn't really, when I started, we didn't have telephones in my classroom. We didn't have the internet and Google didn't even exist. I mean, that's, that's the timeframe. And this is like yesterday, practically, right? All of this stuff is really so new in our lives. But I got technology into my class. I got kids building robots. We were early on building web pages and HTML. I kept being a student. I continued to learn things all the way through. And uh I had great satisfaction because like you said, feeling like you're there and you're making a difference that this is the future. uh The school that I worked in for all those years was in a very poor side of town. Almost every single student and all of the years that I taught was uh either uh Mexican or uh Central American immigrant or the children of immigrants. um and Spanish speakers, 80%, poverty over 90%. And this was my place. And it's where I live too. uh I live in the community in which I teach. And I always, I always felt like I was making a difference all the way through my teaching career. uh And it was a career that when I did it well, I did have time to engage in other pursuits. And so I was able to keep up my hobbies. was able to continue to, you know, build and grow my, my skills and in other areas. And then eventually that, that is what led to me being able to be a board game designer. And so the last, over the last decade of my teaching career, I was moonlighting as a game designer and not just in a small had major titles uh and was designing a lot and the amount of work that it takes just to build one game is very significant. But the games that actually get to the level of being published is actually only even a tiny fraction of the work because most of it ends up on the cutting room floor. Luke, there's so much in what you just said that is so incredible from the aspect of teaching to the game designing. And going backwards on that, one of the pieces about so much of the effort that you put in is front loaded and the little bit extra to get you to the finish line is actually not that much more. Right. So often people push through and I use this in regards to the aspect of, of, of, of business and entrepreneurship. But in anything that you do, you put so much time, effort, energy in front loaded. It's hard. You finally get tired, see something else shiny, you cut out and you dip and you go to something else and you don't realize you were just at the precipice. you're three feet from gold, if you just pushed a little bit further, you would have saw the light on whatever it was you were doing. And I think about all the effort and time you've put into game creation, but doing that, like you say, moonlighting, but but heavily so, putting a lot of time and effort into that, while still doing your full-time job, right? And I love how you said when you did it well, you had the time to do the other pieces. And I just think that comment alone, even out of context, just specifically recognizing that when you're doing what you're good at and you're doing it well in a standpoint of efficiency, uh in a standpoint of joy, when you're enjoying the experience, It isn't as hard. You tend to move faster. You have a better product. You enjoy the experience. People around you enjoy your company more because you're not being as much of a jerk or whatever. Right. um The point being just how all of it ties together and how when you are sticking to what's important to you, but also to what is authentic, when you're true to that, there's, there's a power that I would argue is immeasurable behind that. And to me, I'm a very disciplined person. um And to me, it's discipline in terms of continuing to work, being perseverant about it, but also in terms of honing and practicing the discipline. For some reason, I'm thinking about something Nick Offerman said, I think, in one of his stand-up. He talked about his, you know, having a craft, having a discipline is something that's there's a human drive towards it. And he actually does woodwork. That's his, his discipline in addition to being great actor and comedian. Um, and I value practicing the discipline. So when I'm designing, when I'm doing my design work, There is the fraction of that work that is devoted to seeking the product, to looking at the outcome that exists in some degree of abstract in my mind and in the minds of others that I may be collaborating with. But there is also a part of that work that is, this is the work that I do to continue to hone the discipline to get better as a designer. um You know, I, I mountain bike also, and it's a little like, you know, uh, there's, there's the part of the mountain biking that is that, uh, that getting to the peak, you know, uh, doing that great downhill. And then there's a 90 % of the mountain biking is that slow ride uphill. And you have to love that ride uphill or you're going to get an e-bike or you're going to, or you're just not ever going to make it. Right. So, um, I enjoy the ride uphill. like the grind. uh I like the getting dirty and sweaty and sticking with it. Yes, and you talked about earlier, like this is the joy, right? Finding joy in the journey, that you're enjoying it here and now in the moment, right? In making designs. It's not about, yes, having a goal and a vision is important. Knowing on that bike ride that like what the destination is, knowing that that downhill ride is coming, something to look forward to, but you've got to enjoy there in the moment and what you're doing and understand and find that. It makes the whole journey way more fun. Long the way. bumps, yeah, those bumps are just a sign that you're still alive. You're still on the road. You're you're you're doing it. So Bumps, let's talk about that, if I may. uh The darkest hour, we call this. uh This is a moment that you may have wanted to throw on the towel, whether it was for teaching or for game design. Is there a moment that jumps to your mind that you would call a dark hour, and how did you overcome it? I'll give you two. One of them was early in my teaching career, just around the year 2000. I had just gotten started with my career and I felt like I did it. I made it. I got to where I have a salary and I can pay my bills and so I bought a house. And along comes No Child Left Behind, the signature policy of uh George Bush uh Jr. and Ted Kennedy. Um, so no child left behind created a, a challenge because for folks like me, I was not a science credentialed teacher. was specifically recruited as a multiple subject teacher, which is usually the credential for teaching elementary school. Because I did, I taught three subjects. I actually taught math, science, and PE because in my school, it had this small school within a school thing. And essentially they always had some young and gullible teacher who would have to teach all the fill in classes. And that was me. And I had been doing that for a few years. I actually liked that I wasn't stuck doing one thing. And this is part of the like continuing to be a student aspect. I was learning how to be a PE teacher. I was getting to get outside once a day. um I was being a math teacher, which was a particular point of pride for me because it was only like six or seven years prior. I had failed some classes in math and in high school. And here I was, and I was now an award-winning math teacher. um But no child left behind came along and said, can't do this anymore. If you don't have a single subject credential, you're not going to be able to teach junior high. I responded at first by kind of, this is where I kind of got started doing like political slash policy stuff in that I read all the rules. I read all the laws and I found out what. You know, what was supposed to happen was I was supposed to get something. I was supposed to be kind of grandfathered in. There was a process for being grandfathered in. But my district wasn't going to go along with that. So while simultaneously fighting against the district to protect other teachers so that they would be able to keep their positions, I hit the books and I got the credential. So I went and I literally got books like that was back when we did that. And I read books on geosciences. I read I mean, I had my minor in it, so it wasn't that unfamiliar. But I'd never had a class in a couple of the topics that I was supposed to know. So I read about meteorology, astronomy, geology, everything geosciences related, but then I also had to pass a general science class or test proficiency that covered chemistry, physics, uh and biology. So. uh Yeah, and then I passed the test. So I got the credential and then I overcame that, but not only that, that was part of the path that eventually led me to work in Washington, DC. Being unafraid to just not just trust what I was hearing, but actually go and read the facts, be able to read laws, be able to read legislation and so on. But then. 20 years later was a much bigger test. that was, um we'd witnessed leading up to the COVID shutdowns, we witnessed an increase in violence in schools. And um this wasn't strongly connected with violence outside the schools. My community has always had some violence in the community, but the school was sacred ground. Kids didn't fight at school. Kids didn't bring weapons to school. There was a level of respect there uh by the students. And there was also a sense of parents that that was imposed and that that was, you you don't mess around at school. Parents would get our backs and support that. Well, leading up to COVID, this started to erode. And my community was very late at getting electronic devices in the hands of youth. But this had started and right along with kids getting phones, fights increased, bullying increased. the the access to technology became a tool for inappropriate behavior and COVID shut down. As we eased back in a year later, two years later, the violence hit levels that. There is no possible way I can communicate how crazy it was, other than to say. we would have full on riot level violence where there were three to five fights occurring at once on the schoolyard where every single adult was trying to stop the violence at the same time. Similarly, we were at a phase where involving law enforcement was being frowned upon, even in situations where if this would have not happened in a school, the cops would have been there in a second. it. We would have three to five fights a day sometimes for weeks. This, it put everybody at risk. The children were at risk of injury. um Students became afraid to come to school. Adults were afraid, you know, in a situation where it becomes violent, you know, one mistake, either a physical mistake or a judgment mistake, could lead to someone losing their job or their credential, their life path. This was dark, dark, dark times. And a lot of folks have asked me, what led to this? Because Some folks are saying like, this is all schools. This is everywhere. No, it wasn't. It definitely did not occur at the same level in every place. What we watched was uh in our little microcosm, we watched the impacts of lack of consequences uh grow. And so, and it grew at like a catastrophic level. This persisted for about two years and, um, and I was part of a group of folks who were involved in essentially getting our administration changed, um, in, in that school and changing the, changing the tone, changing the procedures, changing the policies that we, we recreated that environment. And it was the toughest part of my career. And, um, A lot of folks either, you they left that school or they, some of them left teaching. Um, and this happened in, many schools and it's is happening in many schools where this is occurring now. Uh, it becomes not worth it. It's just not worth it to show back up. I was lucky that we, we did have a healing in that school site and not without losses. But then I was able to retire from teaching after a pretty good year, which after the healing process, I think I would have been forever scarred had I left then. If I had gone out on that low note, I think it would have changed my sense of my entire career, but I stuck it out. Luke, that's amazing. The fact that you stuck it out. So much in what you said has beauty, even in the darkness with those students like the risk that they had emotionally and physically, the people that weren't even related in the fights and how they were affected by it. The teachers, how unfortunate that as a teacher you have to stop and consider, should I break up this fight? immediately the answer would be, yes, like stop that. But then at same token, what am I going to literally end my career because I grabbed the kid the wrong way and someone's got it recorded on an iPhone and it goes viral. literal physical injuries too occurred to some adults as well. Some adults were assaulted during that time period. Unbelievable. And I, I, I, I love that you did stick it out, that you were able to help the kids. And, and yes, there, wasn't without injury. wasn't without cost or sacrifice both, but for you and for the people there, right. And there are, um, casualties that will come from, from any experience like that. The hope is to mitigate damage, right? Mitigate the risk exposed to people. find a way to correct it and then move forward. And so I love that you were able to help to affect change in such a significant way amongst yourself and your colleagues. And ultimately then able to retire knowing the difference that you made and just feeling different about it. Like I would, it would be painful to reflect and think that that's something you invested so much of your time and career to make that career. and feel um defeated or sad to reminisce on that. And when we were young, we'd always kind of mock the idea that old people would talk about the way things used to be. Well, back in my day, you know, and we reached such a level of technological and cultural change that the rate of change is so high that you can say back in my day and talk about something that doesn't exist that existed five years ago. The. We are ill-equipped to adapt to change this rapid. yeah, I agree. I agree. And a lot of things are going to continue to come from that, um good and ill. And the hope is that we unite, combine, and overcome whatever those challenges are together. Speaking of overcoming challenges, we don't oftentimes do it alone. Along our paths, on our journey, we call this the fellowship. People who come along with us, whether they're mentors or allies or even people that we bring along with. Is there anyone that you would cite in your journey on your fellowship? Many, yeah. So first and foremost is definitely my wife. um I've been married for 29 years. um I'm a kind of person who sticks with things. I don't quit. And that perseverance and commitment to maintaining uh long-term relationships and functional relationships is very important to me. For many years, it was working with my colleagues in my school sites. the gaming groups that I've been a part of, um the folks who have been my play testers. um We become very close and the fact that they are always willing to try something that's half-baked is something I'm always very appreciative of. But I also acknowledge that the type of work that I do with games is extremely collaborative and it's better when it's openly collaborative. So I have co-designers on most of my games. uh I met Tom Jolly going back to the, you know, the celebrity citing stories from when I first got to talk to Tom Jolly, I was so starstruck. The designer of Wiz War, like part of the origins of this hobby in North America goes back to Wiz War and Fantasy Flight Games. And so Tom helped me get to know the industry and we co-designed two games together, the Manhattan Project Energy Empire and Cryo. um I worked with Scott Caputo on Whistle Mountain and we've talked about future collaborations as well. Dwellings of Eldervale and Andromeda's Edge. My primary partner on those was Peter Vaughn. um He's not credited as a designer, but he's the developer for both of those games and he's my boss at Cardboard Alchemy. you know, so Peter and I have a great working relationship and that we have been able to make incredible stuff that, you know, other folks thought would be impossible. And I value the collaborative work, but I also value the way that others push me. I mean, not too hard, right? You got to push back once in a while, but no, it's almost like they have faith in you. Like you know this thing that you think is impossible in this board game? We think you can do it Luke. Just like if you could only get this in here if you could make it like you've got 12 factions how about 18? Can you do that for us? Can we make that happen? No we can't but then the reality is you know when you really put your mind to it you can pull off these impossible tasks. but related also to that, the fellowship, we're on the fellowship, right? About a decade ago, um somewhere about, um I started playtesting events at the game conventions in the Bay Area. So it started with a convention that only ran two years, which was Celesticon uh in Fremont. And then it moved over to Pacificon. um And then from there, those events and the people that were involved in those very early events became folks who helped run them with me. And then they started some of them. started their own. So this is we call it a proto spiel. There is there's an official event called the proto spiel that happens out in the Midwest. And it's it's very specific to designers bringing unfinished games to play test them. And sometimes it's also publishers coming to see this work and potentially make those connections and sign those games. the events that I created were inside of larger board game conventions. And what they became is primarily focused on the designers all getting together, having that sense of fellowship, playing each other's games, seeing each other's work, supporting each other's work, but also opening this up to the general population of folks who just at the convention. There's a whole crowd of people who come to the Bay Area conventions to go to the protospiels, because they're at all of them now. DundraCon, PacificCon, KublaCon, and also up over the hill at RageCon in Reno. I think they did one at the Sacramento convention as well. But in any case, for some folks, it's their favorite part of going to the board game convention is play testing. And they like to hang out with the designers and and I'm always like, wait, are you a designer? Like, no, I just love to play test games. I just want to be here. I want to be part of this. I want to I want to give feedback and I want to have my ideas matter too and be part of this process. So that that is a fun one because this was one of my first experiences where something that I helped create and inspire spread. And then when I walked away, because I did, I walked away about five years ago now, kept going and it's still going and it's going pretty strong. And I'm very happy about that. So now I can attend without having to do the work to create and run the event. I think that's so cool, especially having multiple times myself gone into the room and actively play tested. And so just hearing that connection, something I didn't realize your involvement in regards to that. So I think it's really cool to bring that together in my mind. So thank you for that. And I think exactly what you say too, being able to, for people that are not designers, to be able to go in and have your opinion matter, right? To have your input. potentially changed for the better in theory, uh the way that the game is produced and then ultimately the ripples that come from that. And I think that that is aligning exactly with the idea that when you finally did leave that and years later, it continues to run because the time, the effort, energy that you put in to create that and then the love and support of the other people, the collaboration that comes to that is what gives it its own wings and then, and it becomes its own entity. It's its own thing. Not when you started initially, but now its own piece that other people can input and it can grow. The best things I found at this point are that. And that comes from an openness, a willingness to collaborate. And also, you've cited this a couple of times, and I think it's so key that I have to say it here, is the idea about being a forever student. The idea about always being open to learning and growing, and always being adaptable to change. recognizing things will occur in life, whether it's personal, professional, and being able to take that in stride, learn from the experience, not allow it to knock you down or not allow it to keep you down, right? To rise up from that then and rise up together stronger. The other thing I really want to touch on that you had spoken of was about discipline. Enthusiasm is common, right? But endurance is rare and you need to have discipline in order to make the best things come to fruition, right? Because it's seeing that through. And I think that too often people do throw in the towel or quit because it's hard. And you made the comment earlier about some people, you know, pushing you not too hard, but pushing you right to go to push past. what you think is achievable. 12 races to 18, is it possible? No, and I couldn't do that. I can only imagine being on those bike rides, right? Gives you time to think in your mind. I actually was thinking this and saying it, I'm curious, do you find, is there a point where you do your best thinking or ideation? I think about that a lot, actually. em So I have realized that, well, OK, let me back it up a little bit. Because design was always a side gig until relatively recently, I always had to be kind of keeping it on the side. And so the ideas, when they would come to me, I wouldn't always know when that would occur. And I would always keep spiral notebooks wherever I was, or I record notes on my phone m to get those ideas together. But without designated specific time, to really process those thoughts. They're good. Just going to go. They're just going to come in. They're going to go uh once in a while. I'll go back and I'll look at a note and it's on my phone and it's just like one line, two lines and it made sense to me at the time, but it's gone. Now it doesn't really have any meaning or significance anymore. Whereas if I brainstormed, I've come up with some ideas and then I do have that designated time and I do have that focus. Then I can sit down. and I can be writing, can be sketching, I can be drawing, and it's through that iteration of the idea where you look at the impact of that idea, you look at the, you kind of break down that idea, and then you think about where it fits with other things. That whole process takes some time. So for me, a lot of times for me over the last decade, that's been my mornings. So I get up early and I get up a lot earlier than I have to. So it's usually get up at six. um I don't work out in the morning. That's not, my body isn't ready for it. But even before I can talk, because my speech doesn't work as well in the morning, I can think and I can do math and I can write. And so I tend to do my design work in the morning before I go off to my regular job. And so I didn't have a commute. I live five minutes away from my job. So I could go right up until then. In addition, as a teacher, uh when I had my systems down, I could I could use my breaks and my after school time and my vacation time where I can get that concentrated long periods of time to process thought, do the work and so on. um I know that there are diminishing returns for staring at the same problem and the problems that I have to tackle. Sometimes they are not problems. They're problems that either no one has ever solved before, or there's no way for me to know how anyone has solved it before. And so for me to figure it out, it's going to take me and my brain and some kind of stimulus or some kind of space away from the problem to see it from a different angle. So I fully acknowledge that some of my best work comes from where I'm. I have my nose to the grindstone. I've been doing the work, doing the work, doing the work. And then I start to notice I'm in a little bit of a cycle. And then I literally can go get on my cycle. I can go for a bike ride. And while I'm on the bike ride, everything is different. m This was a couple of weeks ago when I came up to Pacificon in Santa Clara. I went for a bike ride on my way up. went off the highway nine in Santa Cruz and I rode in the redwoods. And, uh, we don't have redwoods down in the central coast of California, but, and, for listeners that don't know that area, it's like, it's unreal how incredible the redwoods are. And when you just get out there just off the highway and you're just a mile in, you're, you're in a completely. quiet, uh distant space that has like, there's, there's no computers, there's no electronics. There isn't all this busy-ness of perpetual and meaningless inputs that we're, that are just constantly coming at us. And perspective comes. And sometimes when I'm in that mode of that perspective, I can see the problem completely differently. uh Yeah, sometimes things come to me when I get up in the morning. Sometimes they come to me on a long car ride. Car rides can do the same thing, especially, you know, if I've got the quiet music going and it's a relaxing drive. The brain is free to wander and that freedom to wander is part of and it's a key part of the creative process. So yeah, I know I got to step away from the work sometimes to make the work even better. to make it work. Yes, I can. I love that so powerful and I think that there's a lot of lesson in that because I think you regardless of whether we're talking about creating a game or creating a lesson plan for students or whether it's trying to figure out how to best create your website or like what whatever it is, whatever the thing is that you're trying to do. to put in that, find the way to carve out and put that focused attention to give it the energy and the focus that it needs. But then recognizing that diminishing return, being able to step back then and let all that work that you've done now kind of set and settle, right? Like a great recipe oftentimes takes multiple ingredients, but there's one substitute you cannot stop and that's time. You have to give it time to work. uh Yeah. I think much like our mind, need to allow sometimes those things to just cook a little bit, right? And then you get the ding moment. too. That's another one of my things. And my style of cooking is uh barbecuing low and slow. So um I cook with uh oak firewood. on a pit and I like to make salmon. I do tri tips once in a while and I do fish of all sorts and chicken and my chicken is this, you know, this crispy barbecue chicken that is cooked for well over an hour. And so There's this, there's this idea, you know, a lot of folks just, they want the results and they, push for that result and they try to, you know, drag that dream into existence. And in doing so the result is not as good as it could have been because it's not just the time you spend working. Some ideas need chronological time to truly manifest. So you have to wait sometimes for that idea to come. so powerful. And Luke, sometimes that's the hardest part, right? That's the piece that especially in today's day and age where instant gratification for everything is just immediate, right? To the amount of dopamine that's being shot up everywhere constantly in our minds because of the exposure and stimulus, right? People don't understand patients ah any longer, right? And I think even people that knew it to a degree, I think all of us have have unavoidably been changed simply by virtue of uh the exposure to um the world that we live in today. And I always say that, yeah, in terms of like, like the, the moral state of the world is the world could use more patience. It could use more generosity. It could use more acceptance and kindness. um And we are not brains in jars either. you mentioned like, know, the dopamine is also thinking about like, one of the reasons why sometimes the idea flows when I'm out on my bike is because this thing inside my skull is connected to everything else in my body. And if I'm fully neglecting my body, my thoughts are not going to be as clear and my ideas are not going to be as good as they would be otherwise. So that's vital. to the work too. Is that taking care of yourself? I love that holistic approach, that aspect of the big picture. It's not just the one thing, right? You've got to support on all ends. Incredible. uh I appreciate and respect it. uh I myself, huge fan of good whiskey. um And I will say though, I have not imbibed for a decade. I quit drinking about 10 years ago and it was just a personal choice that I need to make for myself and my family and ah it just it was the right choice for me. But I look back and I certainly appreciate, and whenever we have friends around in there and they're pouring, right, I always take a sniff. I like the whiff of it. But uh yeah, funny. So I. OK, so Dragon's Gold. Now, I would argue. We've already talked about some of it, but I'd love to ask you your opinion of this. in Dragon's Gold, the accolades, the achievements, whether it's a thing or a story or an experience that you could share, what would you consider as Dragon's Gold on your journey? It's legacy. uh For me as a teacher, there was nothing as gratifying as being able to encounter and sometimes really get to know my students as adults. uh As a when you teach junior high, your your students become adults in less than a decade and they're well on into their lives. And I taught long enough to where My my first students are in their 40s and I taught long enough to where I had the children of my former students in my class. So um that legacy of knowing that watching people become people like kids become people that there are so many different life paths where They become valuable members of society. They become parents. They do jobs. um in education, there's always the sense of pressure of academic performance. They go to college, get a good job, get a six-figure salary, whatever, have a nice car and everything like that. And no, when I encounter someone and I have a sense that they're a good person, that's... That's when I feel like, we did it right. You you're an amazing person and I'm glad to know you. uh In terms of design as well, like as a game designer to know that I've created something that creates joy and continues to create joy. The idea that people might play my game and they might play my games like for years. Or they'll tell me, I what are you working on next? I really want to know because I love your other games and I want to know what your next one is because that's that idea that they're they're a fan of something I haven't done yet. um That's that's that feeling of legacy. Yeah, there's the pressures on right? So yeah, I have the same feelings about you know my role in my family raising my kids. I've been able to have my kids be involved as play testers and my son Maximus is a co-designer on Andromeda's Edge and Andromeda's Edge Genesis, the expansion and Maximus is a teacher now. He just became a math teacher, so he's following that legacy as well. So yeah, for me, legacy. When I started my career, I chased awards, being, know, uh getting this, you know, the Crystal Apple Award or the Einstein Fellowship or the M.Gin Award and getting getting recognized and being in the paper and all of that. Like that felt like amazing. Like that's that that touch of celebrity. um But nowadays it's less about that specific kind of accolade and more about this idea that these are human beings that are enjoying the work. That's just like, there's nothing as, that's the best treasure, I'll say that. That is gold, brother. That is gold. That's gold. So what's next? What's the next step? What's the next adventure for Luke Laurie? uh I am working on a game right now with uh Fantasia Games. its working title is Castaways, but that is not going to be the name of the finished game. I'm working out with my son and with Johnny Pat Canton, who's a well-highly regarded designer and developer. And uh Fantasia is the one, the company did Endless Winter and Unconscious Mind. So we're excited about that project and it's very far along. uh I will be going to Essen, uh the Essen Spiel, which is the, for non-gamers out there, it's the biggest board game convention in the world. This will be my second trip to Essen and the new version of the Manhattan Project Energy Empire will be there. And currently right now, as of this recording, we are in the middle of a campaign for, on a crowdfunding platform called Game. found for the uh second expansion to Andromeda's Edge which is called Genesis and at this point it has raised half a million dollars and has over 5,000 backers and uh super excited about this product because it adds a bunch of things that uh that make the game better, that really do some really cool stuff in the game without requiring you to learn a whole new side game. It doesn't need a whole different board and whole new set of add-on rules. It's just right there in the game. I love it. I strongly encourage anyone that hasn't already done so to go and kickstart that game. Like absolutely continue to support anything that Luke Laurie creates because this guy is awesome. I'm sure you can tell after listening to this interview. uh It's incredible. I think as a human, you're awesome. I think as a game designer, you're awesome. ah And I can't tell you how thankful I am that we have had the chance today to connect my friends. I appreciate it. It was a lot of fun. Yeah. So I've got two more questions for you. One, we call this tools and weapons. Are there any tools or weapons that you've used in your arsenal, uh whether it books or uh anything that you could share with our listeners that might inspire or help them? That's an interesting thing. I could probably rattle off all kinds of things, but I draw inspiration and use all kinds of different sources of information as tools. Fundamental tools, good uniball pen and spirals. I've got piles and piles of these. Right there with you, obvious, you know, computer. I do voice recordings. One of the things that I do is I do the voice recordings on my phone, sometimes when I'm in my car driving, and I take the notes down on my spirals. And sometimes I never actually go back and listen to the recording. Sometimes I never actually go back and read what I wrote in the spiral. It's the act of iteration of thought is part of what takes the thought to the next stage. So just the movement of the hand on the paper or the spoken words to like, you know, rehearse and process is part of what makes it really possible for me to move those ideas forward. Mmm. So good. I love that. Very powerful. No, but it's powerful. And sometimes the most powerful things are simple. All right, my favorite question to ask and one I've been incredibly excited to ask you, if you can be any mythical creature, what would you be and why? What mythical creature? uh Would it be a Minotaur? I want to be headstrong and unstoppable? uh Would I want to be a Pegasus and fly? uh know, dragons always come to mind, right? Because dragons, I mean, who wouldn't want to be a dragon? Like in a world where you could be a mythical creature, wouldn't you be a dragon? The thing is, if I were to say dragon, I'd be thinking, do I want to be a dragon because I'm powerful? Because I'm wise, because I'm rich and sitting on a big pile of dragons gold. Um. I think if I were to be thinking about a mythical creature, I would want to be that mythical creature that has has wisdom and perspective and understands the value of things, both material and non material. be an Ent. I mean, that might be an aged tree, like with deep roots, long lasting traditions. You know, sometimes that gives a sense that they're outdated, that they're a little bit in the past. And I think more and more these days, sometimes I do feel like I'm a little bit more in the past. But, you know, without those... much even just in the past, but spanning, spanning lifetimes, right? Spanning ages in that regard. I love that. It's, yeah, I'd love the idea that, maybe it's like I'm a multitude. That would be pretty amazing. Like the roots of the, what was it, the heart trees in the Game of Thrones, and they're all tied together like some kind of network that sees the past, present, and future as one. Oh, yes. Yes. Got it. It's all fungus. That's awesome. One of the things that I think I uh like most, uh and again, there's no right or wrong answer, but I think the thing I like the most about that is how it changes or evolves. And I mean that in that, much like the aspect of teaching for you, you started out, right? You wanted those awards, those accolades, right? You want to play a board game. Yeah, you're going for the win. But then after time, experience, knowledge and wisdom, you can then reflect and see that the reality is it's not just about just the accolade or the award. Sure, those are fun. know, getting your name in the paper and getting someone to give you a high five, feeling like a celebrity when you go to a game convention or seeing those students that you haven't seen or seeing their kids, right? That suddenly knowing the work that you put in, the time you worked in, the board games that you see getting played by people. who love your game and have invested hours of their life in this. Like you suddenly realize that the joy is in the connections we make, the people we meet along the way, the things that you can create that bring joy to others, right? And ultimately that brings joy to you. I think it's pretty powerful. Amen. Brother, I'm so grateful for you taking the time today. Luke, can't stress to you enough how much I was looking forward to this and how you far and away exceeded any expectations that I had. And while I tried not to have any, know, I was, um this is something that just to be able to talk to you one-on-one like this and connect on a much deeper level, uh just knowing a little bit more about you and what makes you tick and. what you get excited about. um For me, I just wanna say thank you. Personal, I'm very grateful. Yeah, thank you. being here and talking. And for me also, it's always a, when I have the opportunity to have these kinds of conversations, I don't always know what I'm going to say. And as we speak, sometimes I learn some things about myself. So thank you.