Dragon's Gold: The Magic of Mindset

Win or Learn: Joe Slack's Journey from Corporate Burnout to Board Game Empire

• Justin Mills • Season 1 • Episode 47

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Episode Description:

Joe Slack was stuck in the Corporate Hamster Wheel—burned out from a 17-year career and craving more control and strategy. He realized the escape plan wasn't another promotion, but mastering the game of wealth by putting his passion first.

This strategic conversation dives deep into Joe’s leap of faith, charting his move from a comfortable salary to the unpredictable world of game design. He shares the critical lessons learned from a failed Kickstarter campaign and the "Win or Learn" mindset that enabled his next project, Relics of Raj Vahara, to fund in just four hours.

Here’s what you’ll hear in this strategic session:

• Why trading time for money leads to burnout, and how Joe engineered his exit strategy.

• The critical "Win or Learn" lesson he took from his first unsuccessful Kickstarter campaign.

• How his game, Relics of Raj Vahara, funded in four hours after applying his hard-won knowledge and building strategic buzz.

• The nuance between designing solo games (puzzles) versus multiplayer games, and maximizing your market share.

• Joe’s massive "Next Quest"—a year-long expansion campaign delivered weekly

Tools & Weapons:

• Tabletop Simulator: Essential virtual tool for designing and play testing games online.

• Jamie Stegmeier's Blog/Crowdfunding Book: Provides a wealth of strategic information on game design and successful crowdfunding.

• Board Game Design Lab Podcast: A vital community resource offering great advice and strategies for game design.

• Nandec & Component Studio: Apps that help designers automate processes, iterate faster, and make quick changes to card designs.

• "Win or Learn" Mindset: Reframing failure not as a loss, but as experience points (XP) for continuous advancement.

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About Gold Dragon Investments:

At Gold Dragon Investments, our mission is to bring joy to others by helping them win the game of investing. Helping every client become the hero of their financial journey. We believe that wealth is a tool, but joy is the ultimate outcome.

Through meaningful partnerships, we strive to empower our investors to create freedom, and build lasting legacies of purpose, fulfillment, and wealth.

Join Us on the Adventure:

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome once again to another episode of Dragon's Gold, the magic of mindset. Today we have the pleasure of having Joe Slack, chief game designer at Crazy Like a Box, producer of titles like Mayan Curse, Relics of Rajiv Ahara, and 14 Frantic Minutes. Also running The Board Game Design Course, helping new game developers embark on their journey for game development. Joe, welcome to the show. Justin, thanks so much for having me. Absolutely my friend, it's my pleasure. Well, as I like to do, let's dive in. What's the origin story? Where did it all begin for Joe Slack? well. I've always been into games. You know, when I was a kid growing up, you know, I played all the monopolies and, you know, Clue and all that. When I was in, I think grade maybe six or seven, they did a board game kind of event at my school. And like every week they were doing like different things. And I got to play Risk a whole bunch of times and got got into that. And I was always into playing like cribbage with my grandparents and other card games, Euker and Bug Your Neighbor and all sorts of different card games growing up. So I'd been well-versed in different games growing up, but it was only when I became an adult and started playing some party games with friends and then got introduced to modern board games. So I have to blame my wife on this, Lisa. uh She uh started watching Tabletop with Will Wheaton. Our other friend Matthew was a big fan. He does a lot of role-playing games and board games and that kind of thing. And he was like, you got to watch this channel. And she started watching. then she's like, okay, so Joe. we've got to go to the store and we've got to pick up these five games and gave me a list. And I was like, okay. And we went to the store and we got these five games. And I was like, a couple hundred dollars later, I'm like, I hope these are good games. Cause that was a little bit of money. And sure enough, you know, brought them home and absolutely loved them. Especially the one I really credit with getting me into modern board gaming is pandemic. Cause I was like, cooperate, you can play a cooperative game and there's all these interesting choices and the games playing against you and everything. This is so cool. So that's how I kind of got started with it. And then around that time, I had a lot of friends who were playing games like Cards Against Humanity and all other party games, that type of thing. And we were having fun with it. But we really found that a lot of cards were really like Trump cards and really played again. And you're just really playing to the judge. And I was thinking, well, couldn't I do something like this, but would be more with you actually putting in the input. rather than just playing a card, you you come up with the answer. You get to be creative. And so that was the, you know, the first foray into a game that I was doing. And I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know about play testing and game design groups and everything, but that's what kind of got me started. And then from there on, the ideas just kept flowing and I just coming up, kept coming up with one game after the other, after the other. And here I am. I love that my friend. Something you talk about, the ideas kept flowing. I love that part where you just started. You just started down that path. And the more that you did it, the more that it came to you, the easier that, I if the right easy, but like the more naturally it becomes just by virtue of focus, right? um I love that. So along that path and with that growth along the way, I'm certain there were trials, tribulations, running the gauntlet into producing and getting ultimately to where you are now with having multiple successful published board games. Let me ask, what are some of the moments that were most trying for you? Sure. So when I started making games, I did this for about four years on the side and was starting to get some interest from some publishers and everything. during that time, I was also kind of looking to get out of my full-time career. was kind of of burnt out. I'd been there by the time I left, it was 17 years. I really enjoyed a lot of time, great people I was working with, but it was time for a change. And at the same time, so I had this push from there and this pull in the direction of board games. And I was like, I really want to do this full time. So I talked to my wife and I was like, how can we make this happen? And, you know, we went through the process of making sure, you know, all our debts were paid and we're in good financial shape because I knew I was going to go from salary like this to down here and very unpredictable, right? So we got everything kind of in a row and then quit my job and started doing this full time. I luckily landed a gig uh teaching at Laurier University for a semester to covering like a mat leave in their game design and development program. So somebody just kind of fell in my lap at just at the right time. Because at that point I had written a book on board game design. It was the book that I wrote after designing games for about four years. And I was like, I don't see a resource out there that will really help somebody. You have to pick and choose all these different things. uh Like find podcasts, find articles, talk to people and everything, but there was no one resource. So I wrote this book and that helped me land that gig. But after that ended, I was kind of like, okay, well, that was kind of a good transition now. I had a part-time job basically while I was doing this. But how do I kind of keep this going? And very quickly I realized, even though I'd signed a couple of games, it's a long time from the time you design a game or sign a game till you actually make any money from it. Like occasionally you'll get an advance, but until it actually gets produced, it can very well be, you know, two or three years before it's actually out in the market. And then even longer before you first get that royalty check. So what am going to do in between? Right. So I had to think about kind of redefining that. And I knew going in that it was going to be hard, you know, just designing games on that. And so. because I taught this course and I already had this idea of what if I was able to teach other people as well and reach more people by being online. So not just my general area, not just people in and around Toronto, Canada, but all around the world. So I started thinking about how I would have designed this course and then writing other books as well on other topics and writing my blog and trying to figure out kind of what direction I wanted to go next. I'd run a Kickstarter campaign and it was unsuccessful, but I learned a ton from it. So I was like, do I want to become a publisher? So it was just all these different things. How am I going to actually make a living out of this? Yeah, I want to design games, but can I make a living just off that? So it was that tricky part about where am I going to fit in? Am I going to be a rule book writer? Am I going to be a developer of other people's games? Am I going to? Become a publisher. Am I going to be a writer? So I tried my hand at a bunch of these different things and some things worked and some things didn't but I eventually Wound up kind of branching out and doing quite a hybrid approach where I pitch games to some publishers where they're a good fit Designed my own games that I self publish and I've become a publisher that way wrote books um you know, did courses and got my name out there and have been getting development work, people coming to me for development work. So at first it was just like, how am going to do this and make a living? But it was trying all these different things, figuring out what I'm good at and how I can help other people in different ways while doing the things that I love. incredibly powerful, Joe, and impactful to think about. You tried so many different things, finding out in the space you wanted to be in, but not quite knowing what you wanted to do in that space, but staying in that same and knowing what, finding what filled your bucket, finding the things that you enjoy doing that you were good at and leading into those things. And all the while adding skills, right? Tools to your tool belt and also opening new doors. Right? Being able to find new opportunities that came about by virtue of putting yourself in front of those other places and being open to trying new things. I think that along that path, so many people fall into things that might feel comfortable. And I say this because you talk about taking a leap, stepping out of your comfort zone, knowing confidently that you were going to... set aside a uh paying job to go into something in an unknown that while you know other people may have tried and tested it, it is not always successful, obviously, as you know, with a failed Kickstarter, right? And the lessons that you learned in that failure, right? It was a foundation or a stepping stone for you to move on and then again, have a successful Kickstarter following, right? Along that path and with that, What are some of the things, some of the lessons that you learned through that process? Yeah, particularly on the Kickstarter. uh I had always heard, you you got to build an audience and you know, you got to launch with, you know, people bring your fan base with you. And I did some of that, but I was taking some courses and trying to like run some ads and kind of learning how that all worked and built up a list. But I didn't really keep up with the people. And it was a bit of a gap from the time I did that to when I launched that game, that game, I kept going back and forth. I was co-designing that one, kept going back and forth. Do I pitch to a publisher? Do I launch this on my own? And I was really hemming and hawing and not really sure. was like, you know, I could launch this and maybe it'll succeed, maybe it won't. So I launched it, I tried and I learned very quickly. I didn't have enough of an audience. I didn't build that up enough. I couldn't rely on just, you know, friends and family doing a nice favor and the small gathering of people that I brought in. There was a lot more that I needed and also realized, you know, my pricing was way off and I didn't need to be having such a high funding goal. I should have been looking for other manufacturers, just learning a whole bunch of those different things and then thinking, well, do I ever want to do this again? Like putting yourself out there and, you know, risking failure. ah But then my next, one of my next games that I was working on, Relics of Raj Vahara, which is a solo, puzzly kind of tactile game. So imagine like a, a puzzly mobile game or a old game like Legend of Zelda or Adventures of Lolo where you're pushing blocks around and trying to get through one level the next time. ah I came up with this concept and I had a publisher that was looking at it and they were kind of interested in it, but they felt like, don't know, like the cost is a little bit high because I had like all these really nice like painted wooden cubes and everything. And it was going to be a bit of a production. were like, I don't know how I can do this, how we can do a solo game. But I watched um another designer, Artem Safarov, launch a game called Unbroken on Kickstarter. And he was very, very successful. And it was a solo adventure, kind of a dungeon crawl game. And I thought, I talked to him a bit and I thought, you know, maybe maybe this is the game that I need to be launching next. Maybe I gotta get away from the party games. Maybe this is the one, because I'm very passionate about it. I could do a better job than a publisher because I'm more passionate about my game than anybody else will ever be. And it goes with any kind of product or anything you're creating. You're always gonna be the one that's most passionate about it. So I thought, know, let me try to do this. And I ran more ads and I got much more active in different Facebook groups and. You know play testing the game and demoing the game a whole lot more and building up that kind of following and when I launched It succeeded and I got it funded in four hours So that was a big change from from my previous one and I was just so relieved because like when you launch you're like, okay I'm hoping you're crossing fingers like I've done everything I can now it's up to you know The people coming and hopefully they're interested and when I saw that I was just so relieved and so happy I was like, okay, I can actually do this I can launch a Kickstarter to be successful because I always feel like there's kind of an old adage, instead of win or lose, I think of win or learn. So that first campaign that I launched that failed, I learned from it and I was not going to make the same mistakes again. And luckily that second one was successful and all my other ones since that have been successful as well. So was just a lot I learned and really applied particularly around building that audience and building a buzz around something before you launch. So fantastic, Joe. Win or learn, right? But you're always advancing. And the thing I love most is that when that failed and you had that moment of doubt and you're like, man, am I going to be safe? But you kept going, right? And you applied all of that that you learned. And I just. The entire intention of this podcast is to inspire people to say, that's it. That's it. You will fail. And when you do learn from it, right? And grow from it and keep going. And if you're really passionate about it, and much like you said, you have that fire, you have that drive. No one is going to fight as hard for you as you, right? um And the idea behind you believing in yourself, you believing in your product, you bringing something that added joy and added an element of thought and inspiration and excitement. for many families, right? And I eat the solo aspect. Like I think I love the idea too about the solo play. Like you don't have to worry about having a table full of people, but when you do, there is something about having the group around the table, the relationships that you make, the stories that you share, right? It's a huge element of that. I bring this up because I'm curious in what you found in production of solo game versus uh a co-op or multiplayer game. What have you found in that nuance and in any design choices that you make based on that? Yeah, I think there's definitely something to be said about having a larger player count. So if you have a game that is, you know, one to four players or one to six players, you're going to have like a larger base of people who are interested. uh You know, some people like to play solo games. Some people are dead against it because they really like the the social aspect of the game. I appreciate both. Personally, I love the puzzle and trying to figure something out. And as a solo like playing a solo game, you could take as much time as you want. You can leave the game set up. You know, there's no pressure. to rush or to do anything, but you do lose the social aspect. And I love that social aspect too. So I've learned that, know, different people get into games for different reasons. And also when I'm developing games, designing games in the future, I'm trying to think about how can I even make this multiplayer mode or multiplayer game rather have a solo mode? Because for a lot of people, they'll look at a game and if it says two to five, two to six, they're like, hmm, if it doesn't have a solo mode, I'm not gonna back it or I'm not gonna buy it. because they want to play it solo or at least learn it solo or at least have that option to play it solo. But not only that, it has to be a good solo mode. Sometimes you'll see a Kickstarter campaign, it'll be like a two to four player game. and as a stretch goal, we're adding a solo mode. Well, was that actually tested? Has it been run? Like I've seen some Kickstarter campaigns where somebody promises, we'll do a solo mode. And then like six months later, they're like, I tried it, I can't get it to work, but they promised something. So one thing is just making sure to fulfill that promise. But if you're... if you're going to do something like that, think about if there's a way to do a solo mode for a game. Like it's not going to work for every game. It's not going to work for a party game. It's not going to work for a negotiation game. It's not going to work for certain games where you're like a hidden trader role and things like that. It's going to be really hard to figure out how to do a solo mode for that. But a lot of other games, you can create it so that you have kind of like an AI opponent you're playing against or, you know, missions or different things you can try to accomplish. I definitely think like, even though you're thinking about oh a larger player base, larger player count, always think back to that solo mode and see if you can do that. Because if you can have one to six rather than one to one or two to six, you know, you're opening up your market that more, but you just have to make sure it plays well at every player count that goes for any game. Yes, play testing, right? Play test it before you produce it. Make sure, play test it a lot. uh People will find a way to break your game and you want them to do that before you produce a lot of copies, I love it. And so to that point, based on everything you've talked about, the idea of playing games with friends and uh meeting new friends and making new friends and the growth, it's uh along the way on our path, It's not alone. We bring people with us or people bring us along. We call this the fellowship. Joe, who might you cite in your fellowship? Oh, so many great people. I've met so many amazing people. People I've co-designed with, people who have played test of my games, people I've collaborated with. I would say one of the biggest ones is my friend Sylvain Plante. We met at one of the local game design events and after seeing each other for a bit, he knew I was into like word games, for example. And he's like, I've got a word game idea. Can I show it to you? And maybe you want to co-design if it's something of interest to you. And we wind up co-designing that game. And then we've co-designed, you dozens of games since then, including multiple we published, 14 Farentic Minutes and Mayan Curse that we published together. Those are games that we designed together. So that's one of them. Also Kevin and Alicia, who are, you know, become great friends. We've actually collaborated and now we run Protospiel North, which is one of these play testing events where designers all get together, designers, play testers for a full weekend of just designing and play testing each other's games and bouncing around ideas. um And then you know the folks at Dux Omnium, Amy and Dusty Droz, they you know, they've brought me in, I met them, and now I'm making solo modes for all of their games pretty much. So you know, so many amazing people that I've uh met along the way. I'm not gonna be able to name them all because they're just so many fantastic people, but those are just a few people I've really really connected with. I love it. And it's really wonderful to be able to have those people that come along the journey with us and enjoy to enjoy the experience with. So not all experiences are enjoyable. There are moments that are dark and we call this the darkest hour. Is there a moment in your journey, Joe, that you would share as a as the darkest hour and how did you overcome it? It's hard to say what the exact darkest hour is, but there's definitely been times where I've kind of questioned. I've just kind of sat down and been like, you know what? I'm not making nearly as much money as I used to. I'm having a hard time getting my game signed. But particularly in the last couple of years, there's there've been stretches where I've just had a hard time like finding publishers or I'll go to origins game fair, which is supposed to be this great gaming experience. And I've gone in years in the past before the pandemic where I've had multiple meetings and I've done a speed pitching event and like come away with like at least, you know, publishers interested in my games, handing over prototypes. And in particular, the last two that I went to, and I guess it was 20, 23, 20, 23 and 20, 24, each of those events, I only got two meetings and both of them went nowhere. So it kind of, though, after those events, I was like, man, how am I going to be meeting with publishers? So from that point, I was just like trying to find other ways. So finding, um, online speed pitching events, um reaching out to publishers more often, looking up and doing more research on what publishers are looking for, um and uh just being involved in different events and that kind of thing, which has got more interest in some of these games, pitching to some of the bigger publishers as well. And one of the things I discovered was I was working with a lot of smaller publishers, which in some type cases, a good experience, but they don't necessarily have as much pull as much leeway, they don't have as much distribution. So one of the things through this experience, having some games published, but didn't really go very far, didn't have really big print runs, I'm trying to get my name out there bigger and get my games to bigger publishers. So I've been working with a number of different publishers who are currently looking at some of my games and I'm optimistic and hopeful. eh Some of those ones will get signed. But one of those things is just like looking bigger, going a little bit bigger. Beyond you know the publishers that I that I know or you know some of the local ones Hmm. I love that. Right. If you shoot for the moon, if you miss you land amongst the stars, right. Like go to go big, right. Believe in yourself. You've already you've got proof of concept. You've already created this. You already know that you're a successful developer and designer. And and now being able to bring that opportunity to someone else that ultimately can be lucrative for for multiple parties, including especially the end user, the gamer, right? It's looking for them in the sense that they get to create these valuable, wealthy moments with their family, these memories with the people that they get to share around the table, right? um It's crazy, the ripples that come from it and the beauty that is. The idea of those dark moments and feeling, it's a horrible feeling in the moment. But I can't help but think about that idea. You go to these conventions, specifically I'm thinking of the last two years and having them be lackluster and not come away with anything that seems that's fruitful. It forced you to find another way. You had to think through, OK, well then what else? Because I'm not quitting. I'm going to keep going. And so what can I do? Finding those online speed pitching events, putting yourself out there, intentionally being resourceful about turning over those rocks. and finding what opportunities there, right? And then casting that net wide, even one that perhaps you felt in the moment, and this is, I say this intentionally, people oftentimes undervalue themselves in a sense that they don't think that they can do as much as they really can. Flip that script, think about you can do absolutely more than you even believe, and once you believe it and you push and you take that action, the clouds move, the sky opens, and suddenly those opportunities present themselves. And there's no doubt that you are going to close with a publisher on a game soon. And to that point, I like to, I'm jumping a little bit ahead off, but I love to talk about this now. We talk about the next quest. What's the next adventure? I'd love for you, Joe, to share with us what's upcoming. For sure, yeah. So I've actually got a new campaign for Relics of Rajavahara, my game that I launched back in 2020. ah It's a new expansion campaign and it's gonna be different than all the other games you kind of see out there that launch on Kickstarter. So first of all, it's gonna fulfill right away. So instead of like most games where you put them on Kickstarter, it's gonna be six months to a year or more by the time it's manufactured and everything. I the games already manufactured and ready and this new campaign is gonna be called a year of relics. So rather than... you know, getting a game manufactured or an expansion manufactured and sent out, I'm actually going to be giving everybody a level every single week for an entire year. So if you already have the base game or if you don't have the base game, you can you can jump in now and get it right away. You don't have to wait, you know, months or a year to get it. You can get it right away. But with the year of relics every week, you're going to get a new level and it's going to be like these escalating challenges and You're just going to be able to print it at home or display it. There's no shuffling needed or anything. It's basically with relics. It's just a level layout. So here's where all the blocks are. Here's where the snakes are. Here's where the ramps are. And then you set it all up. Go ahead. Try to solve it. So that's how I'm going to be running it. And I'm to be launching that on November 4th. love that. That's amazing. And if I encourage anyone listening to this, to back it and share with your friends as well. Let's let's make sure that we bring this to light for Joe. ah Super excited, buddy. And I love the idea about that giving someone something to look forward to, you know, new shows come out and people are they're waiting for Monday or Wednesday to come through to watch this show, to be able to do this consistently every week. right for a year? that's that's multiple seasons of a show that you get to look forward to. I just mean from the count, right? 52 releases Joe, along the way with all of the accolades that come along with it, we call this the Dragon's Gold, the successes, the moments, and sometimes it's just a mindset shift. What would you consider Dragon's Gold on your journey? uh I would say that first game that I had success with on Kickstarter, uh Relics of Rajah Vahara, once I kind of hit that funding goal at that four hour mark, I really had that confidence in myself. I was like, I can do this. I don't necessarily have to rely on a publisher. I don't have to go a different route. If I want to, I can publish a game. can self-publish my own game. I can get it funded. I can get it overfunded. And that just led to more successes after that. My next three Kickstarters after that were all very successful. The next one was for Montello's Revenge, which was the expansion where I added some snakes and ramps and portals, some neat things. And that was even more successful than the last one. So I saw that I could do it and I could bring back a lot of the same fans as well and introduce them to something new or an expansion to that. So I would say that first Kickstarter campaign that I... was successful with. saw that I could do this. Love that. One of my favorite parts about what you said was that once you realized and felt that you could do it, you kept doing it and more, right? The idea of that growth, all that effort and time you put in with no fruit to come from it, no monetary reward, all that time, effort, energy, cost, emotion that's invested in this to finally see that it comes through and feel that success and then use that success and. inspiration to boo you to even greater heights at a much faster pace. Whether it's with cruising a board game, whether it's with opening a restaurant, no matter what your vision or mission is, you can do it. And putting in that hard work and effort now is what's going to build the character and teach you the lessons that you need today so you can be successful tomorrow. Yeah, I like to think that the only limitations are really in your mind. Your mind will tell you you can't do this, or this is too hard or whatnot. But if you put in the work over time, and I've definitely seen this with my board game design course as well. So I've always been of the mindset of wanting to help people, like in my previous job and tutoring and doing different things over time, like helping other people. So not only like learning how to make a game, but like teaching other people as well. And I definitely saw that over time, like. At first, it was like, got to release this book, I got to do this course. And, you know, it was a slow, slow build up. But, you know, then going to like Origins Game Fair and like having people come up to me and say, I read your book, you're Joe Slack. um Or like, I own your game or I went to a game design event and somebody was like, do have any published games? said, we have a few, but you've never heard of them. They were like, try me. And I'm like, mine curse. I own that. Or whatever. And I'm like, Whoa, like you actually own my game. Like I'm a small fish in this big, big pond. ah But especially like on the other side, like people recognizing me, uh you know, seeing my expertise. I've had people come to me to say like, can you design a game or can you help me to design a game? Or ah I was looking up, you know, experts in the field and I found you, you know, would you be able to mentor this student of mine that I have in this class who's designing a game? Like all these opportunities have come up just because I've kept putting myself out there over and over, a blog every single week. I've written five books, I've done all these courses and it takes a while. Like it's very easy to give up when you're like, I've been posting on Instagram for a few weeks or I've done this blog for six months and nobody's reading that kind of thing. It takes time if you give up. And quite often I feel like the moment you give up is just before you're about to hit that success. So um keep trying. Like it doesn't mean to try every single different platform. You can't do everything all the time, but pick something, go with it. And keep trying, keep trying. Eventually you're going to build that up. So powerful, Joe, and absolutely correct. I love it. I guarantee we're gonna make a clip of that. I guarantee you there's gonna be a clip of that. So good. Alright, so Joe, we call this the Hall of Heroes. The idea of legacy. If there's a massive statue of Joe Slack and it has a plaque that can say anything that you want, what would it say? probably say. um brought people lots of joy and helped others along the way. I love it. Brother, such a clean, pure and beautiful mission. I love that. So thank you for saying that. So we call tools and weapons, resources, things that have helped you along in your journey, uh books, courses, et cetera. What would you call tools and weapons on your journey? I would definitely have to highlight Jamie Stegmeier's blog. um He has such a wealth of information. I learned a lot from him as I was starting my game design journey and how to do Kickstarter and his great book on crowdfunding. um Learned a lot from all of that. um James Matthew used to have a great site. Unfortunately, it's down as well. It had a lot of great game design advice. um The Board Game Design Lab podcast has been fantastic. The Crowdfunding Nerds podcast has been great. And then Tools for Game Design. just to make things go a lot faster in terms of iterating and that type of thing. uh Using tabletop simulator for uh designing and play testing games and then platforms or apps like uh Nandec and Component Studio to really help you design those games faster, iterate, make change once and it applies to all your cards and that type of thing. uh Yeah, so many great, great tools out there. I love that. you for those resources. All right, my friend, I've got one last question, and this to me is the most important one. If you could be any mythical creature, what would you be and why? gonna have to pick a dragon. And it's not just because of your of your show. ah But um I love dragons. My wife is a huge fan of dragons as well. So I have to say that. But I used to play Dungeons and Dragons growing up as well. um And love kind of those uh fantasy kind of games. And I, one day I want to design a game where you are dragons. I really wanted like design around that. Because I just love you know, that mythology around dragons breathing fire and and everything related to that. I love it. Just to be clear, I will kickstart that game just so we're certain of it. I mean, cannot play some kickstarted. uh What what is it about dragons that you like? beautiful and big and powerful and the different types of dragons, depending on what kind of mythology or fantasy you're reading, the ones that breathe fire, the ones that breathe ice. They're just such menacing creatures. And not that I'm a menacing person or anything, but no, I just love them. They're just amazing to look at. All the art that I've seen, like, these different designs of dragons. um They just are the most amazing looking creatures. I'm definitely biased. I'm definitely biased, but I agree completely. think dragons, incredibly majestic, powerful creatures. m And I'm biased, but the idea of gold dragons, they go on missions for good to help people. And I bring that up intentionally only because I acknowledge like the plaque, like literally what you say, right? That idea that it completely encompasses the idea of my own personal mission as well. And so I resonate very strongly with that. And I just want to say, Joe, thank you for sharing that. Thanks so much, Justin, for having me. Absolutely brother. It's been absolutely a pleasure to have you. I'm going to ask a bonus question here. This is one that is curious. you, for your own personal flavor of games, when you break out a game to the table, what do you like to play? That is such a hard question. That's like asking, what's your favorite game? Because it changes. because that's not, I'm not saying favorite. I'm just saying, if you were to break one off the shelf right now and put it on the table with some friends, what would you play? Yeah, because that changes all the time. um I mean, yeah, all the games, all the games. I will say I gravitate more towards puzzly games. I like designing them as well. But games where you're you're trying to figure out a puzzle and it can be done in so many different ways. Sometimes it's like an efficiency kind of a puzzle. Sometimes it's literally, you know, polyomino shapes you're trying to piece together, that kind of thing. But anything where I'm using my mind and trying to figure out how to strategize and solve a puzzle, particularly if there's some kind of engine build um to it as well, where you get more and more powerful. You can do a lot more by the last turn than you do for the first. like engine building and puzzle solving are really, really my jams, but I love all sorts of different games. I love it. I love it. Thank you, brother, for sharing. All right, my friends, thank you for joining us once again on our quest to inspire, educate and empower you to turn your dreams into reality. One mindset shift at a time. We'll see you next time.

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Justin Mills

Host
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Aaron Iler

Producer
Contributor

Joe Slack

Guest